I guess it's not just us

[Skywalker]

:sl:
This would belong more in the world affairs forum, but by the time it takes to get approval over there, the fun's all over.

Anyways, here's an interesting article...

ATHENS, Ala. - Voters have a chance on Tuesday to return this northern Alabama city to the days of Prohibition.

A measure to end the sale of alcohol in Athens is up for a citywide vote, a rare instance where voters could overturn a previous vote to allow sales. Business interests are against repeal, but church leaders who helped organize the petition drive that got the measure on the ballot are asking members to pray and fast in support of a ban.

Christians who oppose drinking on moral grounds believe they have a chance to win, however small.

"If it can be voted out anywhere, it will be here because so many Christians are against it," said Teresa Thomas, who works in a Christian book store.

Business leaders argue that ending the sale of beer, wine and liquor would hurt tax revenues and send the message that Athens is backward.

"Economic impact is really the big issue," said Carl Hunt, an organizer of the pro-alcohol sale Citizens for Economic Progress.

The United States went dry in 1920 after the 18th Amendment outlawed the production, transportation and sale of alcohol. Prohibition was repealed in 1933.

Now, less than four years after they first voted to legalize alcohol sales, the nearly 22,000 residents of Athens will decide whether to prohibit alcohol sales within the city, located about 95 miles north of Birmingham. Possession and consumption would remain legal.

Such "wet-to-dry" votes aren't unheard of, but they're rare, said Jim Mosher of the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, which tracks public policy issues including alcohol laws.

"In Barrow, Alaska, when they legalized alcohol sales, problems went through the roof," Mosher said. "Then, when they banned it again, it improved."

Twenty-six of Alabama's 67 counties, including Limestome, where Athens is located, don't allow alcohol sales. Besides the Athens vote, residents of the southern Alabama town of Thomasville were to cast their ballots Tuesday on whether to legalize alcohol sales.

Regardless of whether Athens winds up wet or dry, a leader of the 138-year-old National Prohibition Party is glad voters have a chance to decide. Such issues rarely make it to the ballot any more, said attorney Howard Lydick, a member of the party's executive committee.

"The beer and wine industry has very good PR," Lydick said. "Those pushing (prohibition) have been pushed aside."

The Rev. Eddie Gooch feels good about the chances of ending alcohol sales in Athens, but he isn't taking any chances.

A leader of the petition drive, Gooch urged members of his United Methodist Church to pray and fast on election day and the two days leading up to it. Church volunteers have sent thousands of letters and made phone calls encouraging people to vote "dry."

Mayor Dan Williams said the city government is making nearly $250,000 in extra sales taxes directly tied to alcohol, and the city's schools get the same amount.

Besides that money, he said, overall tax revenues have grown since alcohol sales were legalized in January 2004 — an increase he attributes partly to alcohol sales.

An upscale Italian restaurant recently moved to Athens from the nearby dry city of Hartselle in order to sell alcohol, and Williams said other restaurants have arrived since it went wet.

"It's a big deal for a small town to get a new restaurant," he said.

Gooch isn't worried about the city losing businesses or tax revenues if alcohol sales are banned. Normal economic growth and God will make up any difference if residents dump the bottle, he said.

"We believe that God will honor and bless our city," Gooch said.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070814/...ohibition_vote

So in a secluar society where people are allowed to choose how to be governed by experience in different situations, a group of them chose to petition to ban alcohol. Just goes to show that Allah's rules....well, RULE :D

[Woodrow]

Texas has 254 counties. 213 of them are either dry or very restricted alcohol laws.

Of Texas' 254 counties, 44 are completely dry and 169 are partially dry or "moist".

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county

[wilberhum]

Texas has 254 counties. 213 of them are either dry or very restricted alcohol laws.



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_county

Texas is really strange. I had to do 10 blocks to pick up some beer.

That county had lower tax base than mine.
My county accomplished nothing except lost revenue.
That’s just stupid.

I understand why some do not want alcohol in there area and I take no issue with that.
Having to take a 5 minute ride is not a deterrent nor does it keep alcohol out of the area.
But what can I say, that’s Texas.

by the time it takes to get approval over there, the fun's all over.

Yes and that is sad to. I submitted one yesterday and still nothing.

[snakelegs]

prohibition was a failure here.
i don't drink alcohol, but i don't want the state telling me not to - i can make these choices for myself.

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[Woodrow]

Texas is a strange place. We seem to be composed of extremes often just a very short distance apart. There are areas where alcohol is illegal on one side of the street and legal on the the other. Texarkana is a good example. Texarkarkana is actually in two states Texas and Arkansas. State Highway divides the town. On the Texas side of the street Alcohol is illegal, but across the street which is in Arkansas it is legal.

I believe it was in Waco in the late 1800s a State law was passed that Alcohol could not be sold within 300 feet of any place of worship. Waco passed a city ordinance that the churches had to move. (I may be wrong about it being Waco)

[syilla]

prohibition was a failure here.
i don't drink alcohol, but i don't want the state telling me not to - i can make these choices for myself.

lol...even there is a law prohibiting it. People still drink it. Here in Malaysia they are muslims that drink.

For example in mecca, even there are law prohibit people not to smoke, but you can still see someone smoking. And if the policeman saw it, they'll shout... "haram....haram...." lol :giggling:

[snakelegs]

lol, yes, when the state prohibits alcohol - it never works and people will find all kinds of ways to get it.
i believe the kennedy family got its fortune from smuggling alcohol in to the u.s. from canada!
as a person who believes that it is forbidden to drink, wouldn't you rather willingly obey your religion or have some state make it really hard to get?
i don't use alcohol or any of the illegal drugs either - but i think prohibition is a terrible mistake. and people should be able make their own choices and assume the responsibility that goes with them.

woodrow

I believe it was in Waco in the late 1800s a State law was passed that Alcohol could not be sold within 300 feet of any place of worship. Waco passed a city ordinance that the churches had to move.

this is hilarious!!!! ;D

[north_malaysian]

lol...even there is a law prohibiting it. People still drink it. Here in Malaysia they are muslims that drink.

Yea.... it's very easy to spot Muslims drinking in Penang... but from what I've heard many people drink in Langkawi as the alcoholic beverages there are tax-free and way cheaper....

[Skywalker]

Here in Malaysia they are muslims that drink.

Same here in Egypt. But they're the kind of Muslims who don't pray, have girlfriends, and party all the time. Not the best examples.

as a person who believes that it is forbidden to drink, wouldn't you rather willingly obey your religion or have some state make it really hard to get?

This is a good point snakelegs. In a Sharia state it would be illegal for a Muslim to own a liquor store, but from what I understand, it would not be illegal for a non-Muslim to do so. However, drinking in public is another matter. In a country devoted to the worship of God and obeying His laws, I think it would just look stupid for people to be all gathered around drinking. I think the point though is that by having one person drinking in public, they show the people around them that it's ok, that it's "cool", which might encourage others to do so...and then you'd have a society like Egypt today where "you're cool if you drink". But I do understand the need for personal freedom in choosing whether to obey or not, I just think that if you choose to disobey, it should be in private where nobody can see you.

I think that there's a hadeeth that says that talking about your sin as if it's a good thing or "normal" is 1000 times worse than actually having done it. Like the people who like to boast about which women they slept with... they don't know that they're making something that's already bad 1000 times worse :confused:

[Malaikah]

prohibition was a failure here.
i don't drink alcohol, but i don't want the state telling me not to - i can make these choices for myself.

And I'm sure the people who die in car accidents because a drunkard was driving, or suffer abuse at the hands of an alcoholic/dunker person all 'choose' to die/suffer that way.:-\

I think the point though is that by having one person drinking in public, they show the people around them that it's ok, that it's "cool", which might encourage others to do so...and then you'd have a society like Egypt today where "you're cool if you drink".

:sl:

Even worse, they might run you over, try to hit on you, act indecently in public (it isn't uncommon for idiots to run around naked at my uni under the influence of alcohol), embarrass people, abuse people, ruin peoples lives, and most annoying, ruin their liver and pancreas and then use MY tax money for treatment to something that should have never happened in the first place! :raging:

[Protected_Diamond]

It's unbelievable how much the goverment controls us man. It annoys me a lot.

[Joe98]

as a person who believes that it is forbidden to drink, wouldn't you rather willingly obey your religion or have some state make it really hard to get?

He would rather make it a state law. That way:

1 - He doesn't need self control and can't teach people anything. Abstain or burn in hell.

2 - people with different beliefs from him can't get a drink. Thats called intolerance.

-

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

And I'm sure the people who die in car accidents because a drunkard was driving, or suffer abuse at the hands of an alcoholic/dunker person all 'choose' to die/suffer that way.:-\



:sl:

Even worse, they might run you over, try to hit on you, act indecently in public (it isn't uncommon for idiots to run around naked at my uni under the influence of alcohol), embarrass people, abuse people, ruin peoples lives, and most annoying, ruin their liver and pancreas and then use MY tax money for treatment to something that should have never happened in the first place! :raging:

DANG! You totally hit the spot didn't u sis ;D. I agree with you :thumbs_up

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

He would rather make it a state law. That way:

1 - He doesn't need self control and can't teach people anything. Abstain or burn in hell.

2 - people with different beliefs from him can't get a drink. Thats called intolerance.

-

You need to stop being a pain. I mean, who made fun of you? Seriously?

[Cognescenti]

Intoxicated drives operating a motor vehicle are dangerous..but so are sleepy drivers,,,or people with 500 lbs of semtex or a couple of tanks of propane in the back seat. Maybe we should just ban cars.

California has very severe DWI (Driving While Intoxicated) laws and they are enforced.

[Gator]

Its not just the South. There are a bunch of what are called "dry" towns. There are a bunch in New Jersey where my family are from.

[Malaikah]

California has very severe DWI (Driving While Intoxicated) laws and they are enforced.

But what good does that do? While a drunk person really think that rationally?

[north_malaysian]

I am a non-drinker..... and have a question,

Why people wanna get drunk?

[metalted]

I am a non-drinker..... and have a question,

Why people wanna get drunk?

so many reasons..... its stress relief mainly for me everyonce in awhile after a some long day of hard work and alot of stress sometimes you want to forget about your responsibilities for a while and have fun...

[north_malaysian]

so many reasons..... its stress relief mainly for me everyonce in awhile after a some long day of hard work and alot of stress sometimes you want to forget about your responsibilities for a while and have fun...

and why people wanna get totally drunk and did stupid things... like urinating in the public, cursing , making themselves look stupid....

[metalted]

and why people wanna get totally drunk and did stupid things... like urinating in the public, cursing , making themselves look stupid....

because they are immature :). I don't know... some people don't know when to stop drinking.

[Skywalker]

so many reasons..... its stress relief mainly for me everyonce in awhile after a some long day of hard work and alot of stress sometimes you want to forget about your responsibilities for a while and have fun...

I'd rather not have to depend on intoxicants to relieve stress. What's wrong with spending some quality time with the family and relieve stress that way?

Plus, the prophet (pbuh) told us to get married at an early age and with that comes another way of relieving stress. Yes, it could also be seen as something that you grow to depend on, but the difference here is that you're born with a dependecy and a desire for it instead of introducing it artificially due to social "norms".

[metalted]

I'd rather not have to depend on intoxicants to relieve stress. What's wrong with spending some quality time with the family and relieve stress that way?

Plus, the prophet (pbuh) told us to get married at an early age and with that comes another way of relieving stress. Yes, it could also be seen as something that you grow to depend on, but the difference here is that you're born with a dependecy and a desire for it instead of introducing it artificially due to social "norms".

so you think that alcohol is an artificial dependency? I see your point its very much a part of civilization itself in my opinion, alcohol in its many forms was around since the beginings of civilization. I do agree with your prophet that some things like music dancing with people of the opposite sex, and alcohol can lead to bad things..

I think religion in a way is meant to be a guidence to civilization, morality is intended to keep civilization healthy.. if you drink to much you might end up doing something stupid and hurting yourself...excessive fornication can lead to the spread of disease. and both these things in excess i think can lead to the diminishment of wisdom and character and lead to selfishness.

It might be that its morality that is meant to keep us from going to far astray and becoming to selfish..All things in moderation in my opinion will not harm you.

I live in a tiny apartment far from my family and have little money to afford to take care of a wife and little time to date anyone. I wonder what do you do when your family or wife stress you out?

[snakelegs]

And I'm sure the people who die in car accidents because a drunkard was driving, or suffer abuse at the hands of an alcoholic/dunker person all 'choose' to die/suffer that way.:-\

i'm not sure you understood what i was trying to say. alcohol is an extremely socially destructive drug. it has been outlawed nationally before, called "prohibition". it didn't work - just like today with illegal drugs, people found ways to either make it or get it some other way and gangsters got rich from smuggling it.
my other point is that i can understand not drinking because it is against your religion and you want to obey god. but if the state could make it unavailable, you wouldn't have the choice to obey god because the state has already chosen for you. it's a fine point, but something to consider.
personally, i choose not to drink, but i really don't want the state dictating to me. (aside from the fact that it didn't work anyway).
i am against prohibition of any drug, though i don't use any of them.
my drug is coffee ice cream! it is very broadening. :giggling:


:sl:

Even worse, they might run you over, try to hit on you, act indecently in public (it isn't uncommon for idiots to run around naked at my uni under the influence of alcohol), embarrass people, abuse people, ruin peoples lives, and most annoying, ruin their liver and pancreas and then use MY tax money for treatment to something that should have never happened in the first place! :raging:

peace.

[metalted]

also according to my religion Jesus turn water into wine for a wedding, so that says alot about what God thinks about alcohol. :) Gluttony is a sin, or excess of anything.

[Skywalker]

so you think that alcohol is an artificial dependency? I see your point its very much a part of civilization itself in my opinion, alcohol in its many forms was around since the beginings of civilization.

Just because something has been around for centuries doesn't mean that it's natural. I've never drank an alcholic drink in my life and I don't have the slightest desire to drink. Sex on the other hand is a different story...hence one is a natually infused desire and the other is artificial.

I think religion in a way is meant to be a guidence to civilization, morality is intended to keep civilization healthy.. if you drink to much you might end up doing something stupid and hurting yourself...excessive fornication can lead to the spread of disease. and both these things in excess i think can lead to the diminishment of wisdom and character and lead to selfishness.

I don't think people understand just how bad selfishness is. I personally see it as the ultimate evil in this world. And fornication has a lot more disadvantages than just spreading disease.

I live in a tiny apartment far from my family and have little money to afford to take care of a wife and little time to date anyone. I wonder what do you do when your family or wife stress you out?

I'll tell you right now that I don't need no bottle to keep me feelin' good. How about friends? If not there's meditation, sports, ... and we Muslims have one really cool invention, it's called prayer ;) Eases the mind and refreshes the body.

[metalted]

Just because something has been around for centuries doesn't mean that it's natural. I've never drank an alcholic drink in my life and I don't have the slightest desire to drink. Sex on the other hand is a different story...hence one is a natually infused desire and the other is artificial.

I guess I can agree, but what about the plants that grow from the ground that intoxicate?

I don't think people understand just how bad selfishness is. I personally see it as the ultimate evil in this world. And fornication has a lot more disadvantages than just spreading disease.

I agree with you on selfishness, and yes there are more disadvantages to like having children out of wedlock and everything..

I'll tell you right now that I don't need no bottle to keep me feelin' good. How about friends? If not there's meditation, sports, ... and we Muslims have one really cool invention, it's called prayer ;) Eases the mind and refreshes the body.

christians invented prayer before the muslims have :).
I guess I see your point I like all those things sometimes drinking with friends too.. its not against my religion to drink, its against it to waste and be excessive with such things.

[Malaikah]

but if the state could make it unavailable, you wouldn't have the choice to obey god because the state has already chosen for you. it's a fine point, but something to consider.

Thanks for clarifying, but I don't think it matters. It is like saying the only reason a murdered didn't kill was because guns are illegal and so he couldn't get his hands on one. I doubt anyone would want to give the person a chance to kill.

Alcohol harms others, not only the drinker, so it doesn't matter that the only reason they don't do it is because it is illegal, as long as others aren't harmed.

[metalted]

Well its not like america is ever going to ban alcohol so its not like you can do anything about it.. i see you mention yellow stone so i assume you are from wyoming?

beer is as much a part of america as hot dogs and baseball.

[syilla]

and why people wanna get totally drunk and did stupid things... like urinating in the public, cursing , making themselves look stupid....

you are right... they can't control themselves. It is dangerous for a lady to get drunk, you will never know what will happen.

[snakelegs]

Thanks for clarifying, but I don't think it matters. It is like saying the only reason a murdered didn't kill was because guns are illegal and so he couldn't get his hands on one. I doubt anyone would want to give the person a chance to kill.

Alcohol harms others, not only the drinker, so it doesn't matter that the only reason they don't do it is because it is illegal, as long as others aren't harmed.

ok - you do make a valid point.
i just hate the state telling me what to do!
and of course, the main thing is that it's been tried and it doesn't work - people always find a way to get around it, and it usually entails even more socially detrimental acts, such as stealing (because the illegality makes it cost more).

[north_malaysian]

you are right... they can't control themselves. It is dangerous for a lady to get drunk, you will never know what will happen.

even the prettiest woman can be VERY UGLY when she's very drunk...

I had a friend who dont drink but love clubbing... one day he asked me about something happened to him while clubbing..

He said one night he went clubbing and while dancing, a western man came to him and asked him whether he can kiss my friend. Being open-minded, sporting and up for fun.... he did "french kiss" with this guy and suddenly he can taste the liquor on his tongue... he excused himself and went to the toilet and washed his mouth thoroughly....

He asked me, whether he got a sin for having liquor inside his mouth but he didnt swallow it.

I answered... so "french kiss" with a guy is not a sin then?

[north_malaysian]

I've never drank an alcholic drink in my life and I don't have the slightest desire to drink.

Yeah.... i think hot-chocolate drink is the best!!!

It's great to stay sober!

[metalted]

even the prettiest woman can be VERY UGLY when she's very drunk...

I had a friend who dont drink but love clubbing... one day he asked me about something happened to him while clubbing..

He said one night he went clubbing and while dancing, a western man came to him and asked him whether he can kiss my friend. Being open-minded, sporting and up for fun.... he did "french kiss" with this guy and suddenly he can taste the liquor on his tongue... he excused himself and went to the toilet and washed his mouth thoroughly....

He asked me, whether he got a sin for having liquor inside his mouth but he didnt swallow it.

I answered... so "french kiss" with a guy is not a sin then?

a man asked to kiss your friend, another man? i am confused.

[north_malaysian]

a man asked to kiss your friend, another man? i am confused.

well some people do stupid things for fun!!!:raging: (p/s he's not a gay!)

[metalted]

Hahahaha I am sorry but you started off with 'even the prettiest woman,' and then tell a story about two men kissing, and I think it might be cultural or whatever, but then he talks about how the sinful part would be the alcohol in his mouth... very confusing for me in my culture...

Straight men would never kiss in america, or even show that much affection to each other at all! We are very homophobic, but then europeans, kiss like as greetings and sign of affection so...i dont know ... to me in my religion its more a sin to kiss a guy then to have alcohol in your mouth. although I dont judge people, its not my job, God does the judgements.

[snakelegs]

I am a non-drinker..... and have a question,

Why people wanna get drunk?

in the long ago, long ago when i was young, i used to drink. i started because it dulled my physical pain. then i continued and began to get drunk and it helped my depression. one day i realized that getting drunk only made me more depressed in the end! so i stopped, and somehow i have found it difficult to work up a really good depression since.
(of course, not every one who drinks, drinks to get drunk - but i did eventually, so now i simply avoid it all together.)
i think usually it is to escape or to attempt to fill a hole in their soul.
a hole in the soul - i'm a poet! :giggling:

[syilla]

a hole in the soul - i'm a poet! :giggling:

You should make one... poetry on drinking...

and use that word. :giggling:

then post it here...hehe

[syilla]

Hahahaha I am sorry but you started off with 'even the prettiest woman,' and then tell a story about two men kissing, and I think it might be cultural or whatever, but then he talks about how the sinful part would be the alcohol in his mouth... very confusing for me in my culture...

Straight men would never kiss in america, or even show that much affection to each other at all! We are very homophobic, but then europeans, kiss like as greetings and sign of affection so...i dont know ... to me in my religion its more a sin to kiss a guy then to have alcohol in your mouth. although I dont judge people, its not my job, God does the judgements.

lol i don't think so its culture...

Malaysian guys usually don't do that...

Its just the ignorant and easy influence people do that.

[north_malaysian]

Its just the ignorant and easy influence people do that.

or crazy..... :hiding:

[Skywalker]

he did "french kiss" with this guy and suddenly he can taste the liquor on his tongue

Sick! Dude...that's just nasty. The fact that he could taste the alcohol is insignificant next to the fact that he....ah forget it, it's too nasty to even mention :confused:

christians invented prayer before the muslims have

And the Jews invented it before the Christians. Here's something interesting though...from the Islamic perspective, they were all Muslims :) Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim, Moses (pbuh) was a Muslim, Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim -- and even Adam (pbuh) was a Muslim. We believe that each one of the great prophets (pbut) that Allah sent to us to guide us had submitted themselves to the worship of and obedience to Allah, in other words, became Muslims (literally), and the people that followed the prophets (pbut) in turn became Muslims themselves.

We are very homophobic

From what I hear, Americans are getting less and less homophobic by the day. A friend of mine just came back from Jersey and he's telling me about all the homosexual couples (and gangs) he used to see over there. I couldn't believe that it had reached the extent that they display their homosexuality publically and people brush it off as normal. If two people did anything gay here in Egypt, they'd get the crap beaten out of them.

but then europeans, kiss like as greetings and sign of affection so...i dont know ...

lol, actually we do that here too!! I think it's something that the French gave us when they colonized us. But it's totally normal here to see an old friend and kiss them on both cheeks a few times. Even people that you see normally and you want to show them that you're happy to see them, you bring 'em closer for a lil kiss :P 2 is the default, one on each cheek, but if you're really happy to see someone, then it's not unusual to do 4. However, this is mostly done with people of the same sex -- the only time I've done this with the opposite sex is with my relatives, grandma, aunts, lil kids, etc. Not all that Islamic, I know, but then a lot of things in the Egyptian culture aren't either -- heck most sheikhs I know kiss me when they see me! lol

one day i realized that getting drunk only made me more depressed in the end!

What some people don't realise is that Allah's rules aren't always to keep you out of immediate danger, but to keep you from going down the path that will substantially increase your chances of being in danger. In other words, He keeps you out of long-term danger.

hole in their soul

Bravo! That's beautiful, snakelegs. Almost made me shed a tear.

;D

[metalted]

From what I hear, Americans are getting less and less homophobic by the day. A friend of mine just came back from Jersey and he's telling me about all the homosexual couples (and gangs) he used to see over there. I couldn't believe that it had reached the extent that they display their homosexuality publically and people brush it off as normal. If two people did anything gay here in Egypt, they'd get the crap beaten out of them.

Well we are less afraid of homosexuals, but we always are afraid of being Viewed as being homosexuals.. We have been beating up gays and killing them, not all of us but violent people.. and It still goes on today.. but we tend to think its wrong to beat them up. and I really never seen a gay gang before. We are coming to the conclusion that it might be something you are unfortuanetly born with and not cultural.. and I say this as I see on this very forum gay muslims.. so its not just and immorality lacking faith thing in my view. I witnessed a gay beating in my city and I found it to be horrible. even though I am against the behavior,I think God would look down on both actions, being gay and beating up the gay person. But again I do not Like to speak for God.

lol, actually we do that here too!! I think it's something that the French gave us when they colonized us. But it's totally normal here to see an old friend and kiss them on both cheeks a few times. Even people that you see normally and you want to show them that you're happy to see them, you bring 'em closer for a lil kiss :P 2 is the default, one on each cheek, but if you're really happy to see someone, then it's not unusual to do 4. However, this is mostly done with people of the same sex -- the only time I've done this with the opposite sex is with my relatives, grandma, aunts, lil kids, etc. Not all that Islamic, I know, but then a lot of things in the Egyptian culture aren't either -- heck most sheikhs I know kiss me when they see me! lol

yes if europeans or arabs did this to americans (I mean if we all started getting along again ! )

we would have to keep reminding ourselves in our heads "its just part of thier culture go with it." lol well its kind of a bad thing I think that men are so afraid of being labeled homosexual that they can not show even slight affection for each other.. (even as I say this, I am thinking.. "did that seem gay?" lol..

[metalted]

And the Jews invented it before the Christians. Here's something interesting though...from the Islamic perspective, they were all Muslims Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim, Moses (pbuh) was a Muslim, Abraham (pbuh) was a Muslim -- and even Adam (pbuh) was a Muslim. We believe that each one of the great prophets (pbut) that Allah sent to us to guide us had submitted themselves to the worship of and obedience to Allah, in other words, became Muslims (literally), and the people that followed the prophets (pbut) in turn became Muslims themselves.

yes it makes me wonder sometimes muslims call us kafir.. and sometimes they say the only people who are kafir are aethiests since we are 'people of the book.' since we follow all the same prophets. because you know moses probably did not believe in muhammed because he did not exist then, nor did the people who followed moses believe in muhammed...
as those were jews that followed moses and abraham.. jews believe in muslim prophets? so in that case wouldn't we all be muslims if you think they were muslims?

[Skywalker]

We are coming to the conclusion that it might be something you are unfortuanetly born with and not cultural..

Actually, studies on this up till now are inconclusive. I however don't believe that anybody is born gay, and seriously doubt that they will ever find evidence that it's anything genetic. In my opinion it's just the devil playing tricks with your mind, making you think that it's normal, and warping your senses to the extent that you have feelings for the same sex. That's just my point of view anyway...

I witnessed a gay beating in my city and I found it to be horrible. even though I am against the behavior,I think God would look down on both actions, being gay and beating up the gay person.

I'm also not a fan of these people getting beaten mostly because the people who do the beating aren't usually the best of people either. In a true Islamic state, if there is to be a punishment for sodomy, it would be adminstered by the state in a professional way, not by a bunch of hooligans in the street.

lol well its kind of a bad thing I think that men are so afraid of being labeled homosexual that they can not show even slight affection for each other.. (even as I say this, I am thinking.. "did that seem gay?" lol..

LOL, you'd be in for a rough ride if you came down to Egypt. Here we have 100% heterosexual men hugging, kissing each other on the cheek, locking their arms together while walking (you know like a husband a wife), etc...and it's all totally cool. I think the homophobia that exists in America hasn't made its way down here completely yet, but we are starting to have more and more people who are becoming uncomfortable with the whole thing. LOL, I have this friend who came by from the States on vacation, and he hadn't been to Egypt for a few years. Before that though, we were totally Egyptianized, kissing on the cheeks and all. So when I went to greet him with the traditional hug and kiss on the cheek he's like "hey man, step back!...darn, I totally forgot that u guys do that..." lol.

Anyways -- this might sound really gay, but believe me it's not -- I feel that the love between two brothers (friends) is the best kind of love in this world, even better than the love between a man and a woman. I felt this when I was watching The Lord of the Rings and seeing the love between the little Hobbits. It's because this kind of love is "pure", it doesn't require or depend on sex, nor does sex play any role in it. It's just pure trust, loyalty, compassion, duty, and sacrifice -- without being tainted by any kind of desire or selfish need. I think it's a shame that men are becoming afraid to show affection for each other because of the fear of someone thinking that they're gay. I think that the companions of the prophet (pbuh) used to be very close and really had that kind of "brotherly love", which is one of the things that made them a strong nation. This is slowly getting washed away from the Muslim youth...and this is one of the things that are making us weak. IMO of course...

Heh heh, I told you it was gonna sound gay...

Btw metalted, I'm guessing ur Christian, right? It would really help if you put something under "way of life" so that I have some idea of how to talk to you :)

[NobleMuslimUK]

By dry towns I suppose you mean that its illegal to sell or buy but totally legal to consume within private premises? I know they have similar laws in many muslim countries, some parts of UAE suffer from the same thing as a lot of foreigners go there for holiday.

[wilberhum]

By dry towns I suppose you mean that its illegal to sell or buy but totally legal to consume within private premises? I know they have similar laws in many muslim countries, some parts of UAE suffer from the same thing as a lot of foreigners go there for holiday.

You are correct.
There was nothing illegal about me going the 10 blocks, buy some beer, go home and drink it.

[Skywalker]

and sometimes they say the only people who are kafir are aethiests since we are 'people of the book.' since we follow all the same prophets. because you know moses probably did not believe in muhammed because he did not exist then, nor did the people who followed moses believe in muhammed...
as those were jews that followed moses and abraham.. jews believe in muslim prophets? so in that case wouldn't we all be muslims if you think they were muslims?

It's actually quite simple. A kafir is someone who does not believe in the oneness of God, the prophets (pbut), the angels, and the Day of Judgement. A Jew would be a Muslim if he acknolwledged ALL the prophets (pbut) including Mohammed (pbuh). We do believe that the people that followed Moses (pbuh) were Muslims, but we also believe that the message he brought to them has been corrupted over the centuries, and that the only remaining uncorrupted message from Allah is of Mohammed (pbuh). We believe that allllll the prophets (pbut) from Adam (pbuh) to Mohammed (pbuh) came to earth with the same message, each one to a certain nation, except Mohammed (pbuh) who came to deliver the final message and warning to the whole world.

[snakelegs]

it's sad when people confuse affection with sex. in u.s. men have to be afraid to touch each other because of homophobia. i don't think that's healthy at all. in many cultures, as sky walker mentioned egypt, my guess is all the arab countries - south asian too - men don't have this problem at all and can be natural with each other.
it is natural for people to show affection and to think everything has to do with sex is just plain sick.

[wilberhum]

it's sad when people confuse affection with sex. in u.s. men have to be afraid to touch each other because of homophobia. i don't think that's healthy at all. in many cultures, as sky walker mentioned egypt, my guess is all the arab countries - south asian too - men don't have this problem at all and can be natural with each other.
it is natural for people to show affection and to think everything has to do with sex is just plain sick.

Ditto
I think it is sad too. My best friends are women.
I enjoy the company of women and it has nothing to do with sex.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Rules have to apply to everyone, not just a portion. If you have rules applying to one half and not the other, how will that maintain stability? You'll have people saying why do we have to do it and not them and vice versa. If you don't think like that, thats good on you. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that there are billions of others opposite you.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

What confuses me is the people who will balk at alcohol prohibition and then balk at the legalization of marijuana. Cultural programming is the ONLY plausible explanation for this discrepency.

[wilberhum]

Rules have to apply to everyone, not just a portion. If you have rules applying to one half and not the other, how will that maintain stability? You'll have people saying why do we have to do it and not them and vice versa. If you don't think like that, thats good on you. But that doesn't dismiss the fact that there are billions of others opposite you.

Peace

How do you feel about rules that only apply to one gender or the other, or rules that apply only to people of one religion and there is another set of rules for people of different religions?