German State Court Upholds Headscarf Ban for Teachers

[guyabano]

A court in Germany's most populous state of North Rhine-Westphalia has upheld a ban on female Muslim teachers wearing headscarves in schools.

Picture 1

Wearing a headscarf violated a state regulation against religious symbols in public schools, the administrative court in the western city of Düsseldorf ruled on Tuesday.

The case was brought by a 52-year-old secondary school teacher, who said she would appeal Tuesday's ruling.

The teacher had argued that her headscarf was a "fashion accessory à la Grace Kelly" that was in line with Christian-Occidental values.

The judges did not accept the argument, pointing out that since the teacher always wore the scarf, it was a symbol of her religous beliefs.
Authorities in North Rhine-Westphalia imposed a ban on headscarves in June 2006.

A similar ban was introduced in the southern state of Bavaria in 2005 with the aim of protecting children from the influence of Islamic fundamentalists.

Rules vary

Picture 2

Headscarves are banned in eight of Germany's 16 states, but laws vary about other headdress.

After the headscarf prohibition came into effect in June 2006 in North Rhine-Westphalia, one teacher appeared at school wearing a beret. A court said the beret fell under the headscarf rule and asked the teacher to consider wearing a wig instead, which she refused.

In Bavaria, on the other hand, teachers may wear hats in school.

At an administrative court in Stuttgart in the state of Baden-Württemburg, judges in July 2006 reversed an earlier decision. There, Muslim teachers may now wear headscarves since nuns are also permitted to wear their habits in public schools.

Source

[wilberhum]

I find the baning of Headscarfs as discusting as requireing them. :mad:

But that's just me. :embarrass

[Keltoi]

Yeah, I don't really understand the rationale for this ruling.

[Amadeus85]

This whole thing with scarfes is confusing i think. Does the article talks about just hijabs or niqabs (the whole face cover)? Because it is much difference i think. And about the ban.. I really dont know, i think that it kind of violates the religious freedom, but from the other side, there is no a sharia law in Germany, so muslims must follow the german law.

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[Cognescenti]

What is the big deal with a head scarf? It just seems a stupid thing to restrict. How does it harm anyone?

I know a Sikh ENT surgeon. He just puts his surgical hood over his head thingy (whatever that is called). Big deal.

[wilberhum]

What is the big deal with a head scarf? It just seems a stupid thing to restrict. How does it harm anyone?

What ever the reality is, here is what the thinking is.

The headscarf is widely regarded in German society as a religious or political symbol that stands for the suppression of women or Muslim fundamentalism.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,...179580,00.html

[Pk_#2]

How does it harm anyone?

eXAAAACtly man:grumbling...:muddlehea


:D Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

[metalted]

the french and the germans think that if you ban the head scarfs people will more easily integrate into thier culture, and it will eventually secularize people. not saying its right, but just pointing out that they do not believe something stupid like bombs being hidden there or something.

[Neelam92]

Hijab is an integral part of Islam, it is derived from Quranic injunctions and its practice is not symbolic or a fashion or cultural statement but rather it is a manifestation of being a Muslim and following the deen of Islam. An attack on hijab is clearly an attack on Islam. To criminalize hijab is to criminalize Islam. This is the intension of this law - to outlaw the practice of Islam.


My liberty – hijab
My quality – hijab
My surety – hijab
My philosophy – hijab
I’ll always wear – my hijab
You’ll never scare – my hijab
I’ll give my life – for hijab
I’ll always strive – for hijab
Allah’s blessings in hijab
Islamic blessings in hijab
Allah’s teaching – hijab
Prophet’s preaching – hijab
Part of shariah – hijab
My exterior – hijab
My political voice – hijab
My free will and choice – hijab
My body’s veil – hijab
Keeps me real - hijab

[Cognescenti]

the french and the germans think that if you ban the head scarfs people will more easily integrate into thier culture, and it will eventually secularize people. not saying its right, but just pointing out that they do not believe something stupid like bombs being hidden there or something.

Yes, I can see the argument for aculturation, but it still seems somewhat harmless. I do understand the French idea about public schools banning headscarves as they also ban other religious symbols in a rigorous fashion. It does seem in that case that Muslim parents have the option to vote with their feet and leave France or go to a private Islamic shool. Still, the "forced secualrism" seems a bit overwraught and is clsoe to being a de facto state religion.

A veil in an English courtroom...that is a completely rational thing to ban as it directly conflicts with a millenium of English jursiprudence

[wilberhum]

This is the intension of this law - to outlaw the practice of Islam.

Am I assume you are talking about all the mosques closures and Muslims imprisoned for praying.

[Cognescenti]

Hijab is an integral part of Islam, it is derived from Quranic injunctions and its practice is not symbolic or a fashion or cultural statement but rather it is a manifestation of being a Muslim and following the deen of Islam. An attack on hijab is clearly an attack on Islam. To criminalize hijab is to criminalize Islam. This is the intension of this law - to outlaw the practice of Islam.


My liberty – hijab
My quality – hijab
My surety – hijab
My philosophy – hijab
I’ll always wear – my hijab
You’ll never scare – my hijab
I’ll give my life – for hijab
I’ll always strive – for hijab
Allah’s blessings in hijab
Islamic blessings in hijab
Allah’s teaching – hijab
Prophet’s preaching – hijab
Part of shariah – hijab
My exterior – hijab
My political voice – hijab
My free will and choice – hijab
My body’s veil – hijab
Keeps me real - hijab

Ding, ding, ding. That one get's my attention because it seems baldly secular and I have a hard time believing that is some Quranic instruction. I am glad you admitted it. That may well be what is yanking chains in Germany.

[Neelam92]

In September 2003, after a five year battle, Germany’s highest court in Karlsruhe finally ruled that school authorities in the southern city of Stuttgart were wrong to sack a Muslim woman from a teaching job because she wore a headscarf in the classroom. But the court also stated that although Germany’s constitution did not forbid the wearing of headscarves in state-run schools, individual states could impose such a ban if they wished.

On October 10th 2003, seven out of Germany's sixteen states backed legislation barring hijab at a meeting of the 16 regional ministers for culture, education and religious affairs. Already two of these states - Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg have drafted bills which, if passed, would prohibit teachers in state-funded schools from wearing headscarves. The bills will be sent before their respective state parliaments for approval early in the New Year.

In an interview with Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper (21 Dec 2004) Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder supported the ban on hijab by saying that "headscarves have no place among people who act on behalf of the state, and that includes teachers".

Update April 2004: The German state of Baden-Wuerttemberg has banned Muslim women teachers from its schools, State culture minister Annette Schavan was quoted as saying "headscarves have no place in schools". The state assembly approved the law almost unanimously. Another five out of 16 states are in the process of passing similar bans.

[Amadeus85]

As i said, its Germany, there are german laws, not sharia laws.

[Haidar_Abbas]

:sl: the germans like westerners, wanna make *****s of our women Allahummaghfir lee :sl:

[wilberhum]

:sl: the germans like westerners, wanna make *****s of our women Allahummaghfir lee :sl:

So women who don't ware headscarfs are "*****s"? :raging:

[Haidar_Abbas]

according to our laws yeh, but im not debating your culture vs mine, you always come where i post and put up some comment to attack my honour im ending it...

[wilberhum]

according to our laws yeh,

But we are talking about German laws. If you find German laws immoral, get them overturned or leave. But then you arn't in Germany.

but im not debating your culture vs mine,

Culture? I thought we were talking about laws.

you always come where i post and put up some comment to attack my honour

Not your houour, your common sence. A woman not waring a headscarf is a "*****s" That is just obsurd. If you masure ones morality by a simple peace of fabrice, that's sad.

im ending it

Good by.

[metalted]

i guess thats why some muslims from the mideast have raped some european women because they thought they were *****s or something. ie not wearing thier hijab.

[The_Prince]

their country their law :) if u dont like it then leave, this is what Islam says! if u feel u cant properly follow ur religion in another country whereas you can preform it better elsewhere and u have the means to move then you should move, or else stop complaining and get on with it and wait till germany becomes a Muslim majority and then u can wear ur hijab :) theres no use in throwing tantrums about this lets be honest ppl several of our muslim countries ban alot of religous festivities of other religions (which i dont mind) so we are basically even :) lets move on to more imporant issues plz cause i as a muslim am tired of this headscarf debate u begin to hear so much about a certain topic that it just gets OLD especially a topic that isnt really life and death!

why dont we as Muslims show this much dis-satisfaction when turkey, tunis, and algeria ban the hijab? oh yeah and morroco?! lets fix our countries up, make them pure Islamic countries, then we will stop being humiliated worldwide :) easy.

[Neelam92]

its not only in germany where there has been a similar problem also in:

Belgium
Denmark
Italy
Spain
Britain
France
and more

[Malaikah]

:sl:

This is so depressing! Don't they realise this is nothing short of oppression!

On one hand you have people criticising Islam by saying that Muslim women don't have rights and that they can't work and are second class or what ever, and then on the other hand you have people making the situation worse by not even letting Muslim women work if they wear a head scarf!

How are we meant to reverse the negative image of Muslim women if they can't even work without making major sacrifices?

Hijab isn't even a symbol. Sticking a cross on your hat is a symbol, wearing a crescent is a symbol, holding a banner saying "I am a Jew" is a symbol, hijab is a way of dress with a purpose, and that purpose is modesty, not symbolism!:raging:

[Suomipoika]

I still think that schools and state (and employers overall) can set dresscodes they see fit. In workplaces there are all sorts of dresses and behaviour banned for all kind of reasons, why should this be any different?

Maybe if my religion dictated me to run around in speedos, you would support my right to teach in them?

[Neelam92]

It is hard for someone to give u a choice like
'either you take ur scarf off or basically u cannot go to school or university or get a job'! NOT FAIR

I mean the way people look at other muslim women who are wearing the hijab, the looks they get on the trains or bus. ever since the whole september 11th thing, mulsim women have been abbused, have been called 'murders, killers, terrorists,'!

I would not matter who ask me, i will never take off my scarf!
I will never disobey Allah swt for anyone!

[Neelam92]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03Uf3mT799Y

Cheack this video out its really good and very true!

[Malaikah]

I still think that schools and state (and employers overall) can set dresscodes they see fit. In workplaces there are all sorts of dresses and behaviour banned for all kind of reasons, why should this be any different?

Isn't it obvious?! Banning something like jeans or casual dress is fine because it is easily complied with! Who cares, really? We can just change into something else and we won't be sacrificing much or compromising something we believe in. We can still work, and very happily too.

But banning the head scarf is discrimination, we can't just wear something else, it means we can't work at all!

It is just so wrong, I can't believe anyone would even try to justify it.

[Amadeus85]

its not only in germany where there has been a similar problem also in:

Belgium
Denmark
Italy
Spain
Britain
France
and more

Yes, there are european laws, not sharia laws, so no wonder.

[Neelam92]

Its strange how its okay for nuns to cover and not when muslim women do

[Keltoi]

Its strange how its okay for nuns to cover and not when muslim women do

I seriously doubt it is allowed for a nun to wear her traditional dress if she were to teach at a public school in Germany. At a Catholic school, or an Islamic school, I'm sure they are free to wear whatever they want. Not saying the ruling is the right one, but I'm fairly certain it goes for nuns as well.

[Intisar]

How does one wearing a hijab harm others? It only restricts the liberty of those wearing it. The rationale for banning it is nothing short of ridiculous. May Allah guide the misguided!

[Neelam92]

How does one wearing a hijab harm others? It only restricts the liberty of those wearing it. The rationale for banning it is nothing short of ridiculous. May Allah guide the misguided!

exactly ry true
thanks

[Muezzin]

What is the big deal with a head scarf? It just seems a stupid thing to restrict. How does it harm anyone?

I know a Sikh ENT surgeon. He just puts his surgical hood over his head thingy (whatever that is called). Big deal.

I agree with you.

On the other hand, the law is the law. If any of our German members are dissatisfied with the ruling, the best thing would be to contact their local politician about the matter, in an effort to change the law. If such initiatives prove unsuccessful, the only other practical options are to either live with such rulings, or move to a different country.

[Suomipoika]

Isn't it obvious?! Banning something like jeans or casual dress is fine because it is easily complied with! Who cares, really? We can just change into something else and we won't be sacrificing much or compromising something we believe in. We can still work, and very happily too.

Just because its not big deal to you, it might be big deal to someone else, if we let you to dress how you wish based on your wolrdview, shouldnt we have to allow the same to everyone? There is actually so many subcultures that have to sacrifice their way of dressing up in workplaces and schools. I think it is and would be really unfair and discriminating to allow some people bend the rules because of their religion.

I want my values on equal ground just as protected and priviliged as religions.

But banning the head scarf is discrimination, we can't just wear something else, it means we can't work at all!

You could work, but you choose that your way of life is more important than having work.

[Neelam92]

Even tho the whole covering face thing (niqab) is banned in the UK but i still see women wearing it...and yeh people to sare but they dont seem to care

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Just because its not big deal to you, it might be big deal to someone else, if we let you to dress how you wish based on your wolrdview, shouldnt we have to allow the same to everyone? There is actually so many subcultures that have to sacrifice their way of dressing up in workplaces and schools. I think it is and would be really unfair and discriminating to allow some people bend the rules because of their religion.
.

then the only way around it is to create completely independant workplaces schools etc etc, this will create a huge rift in society. There are tons of muslims so its not an impossible thing to achieve.

but the question is do you want to hit the already economically flawed society with another hammer? or can you just allow us to follow our religion (NOT CULTURE REALISE THE DIFFERENCE) religioN !

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Even tho the whole covering face thing (niqab) is banned in the UK but i still see women wearing it...and yeh people to sare but they dont seem to care

lol sis where did u get that froM? since when is it banned? my sister wears it everyday and she walks by a lotta police officers too :D

[Neelam92]

lol sis where did u get that froM? since when is it banned? my sister wears it everyday and she walks by a lotta police officers too :D

sory i meant in schools like teachers are not allowed to wear the niqab

[IbnAbdulHakim]

sory i meant in schools like teachers are not allowed to wear the niqab

i wonder where my heads at? i didnt even kno that.

im gnna go home and put my sister off that pgce :D

[Neelam92]

i wonder where my heads at? i didnt even kno that.

im gnna go home and put my sister off that pgce :D

:D hehehehe ok

[Suomipoika]

then the only way around it is to create completely independant workplaces schools etc etc, this will create a huge rift in society. There are tons of muslims so its not an impossible thing to achieve.

but the question is do you want to hit the already economically flawed society with another hammer? or can you just allow us to follow our religion (NOT CULTURE REALISE THE DIFFERENCE) religioN !

I want same rules for everyone. Why would something you value as the right way of life be exempt from rules over something which I value, just because what you value is based on religion?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

just because what you value is based on religion?

yeah ! Religion is extremely important..

[Neelam92]

Whilst the race-relations law in Britain protects other religious minorities like Jews and Sikhs from discrimination, it specifically excluded Muslims. Muslims unlike the other religious minorities are racially diverse and cannot be defined in terms of race, and so the excuse goes, are left unprotected by the law. Even after a decade of lobbying, and with independent academic studies, like the Runnymede Trust report on Islamophobia, all advising government of the need to provide equal protection under the law for Muslims, successive governments have all refused to do so.

This loophole in the law has lead to horrendous discrimination of Muslims in all sectors of society including schooling and employment.

One example which has hit the news recently (5 Dec 2003) is that of Icknield High School in Luton where governors are currently considering whether the school should continue its discriminatory practice of banning girls from wearing hijab. It was in 1999 that the schools islamophobic practices were first exposed (Muslim News 26.11.99):

Shabana Katisar, 16, who is in Year 11 at Icknield High School, said many girls wanted to wear the hijab but were prevented by the school. She said she wears the hijab to school and removes it when she enters the premises. On the occasions that she has kept the hijab on in school she, and other girls, have been placed in isolation.

She said: " It has happened many times. Last year, Sadia, who is a year ahead of me, came into school wearing hijab. She was isolated for two days. Her parents moved her to another school where they are allowed to wear hijab..."

Ms Kausar also said that she and a friend were placed in isolation in September when they wore the hijab to school. She added that the school is adopting double standards with this issue:

"Sikh boys are allowed to wear a turban even though it is not part of the uniform. This is because they are protected under law but we are not because we are Muslims."

Ms Kausar has discussed the issue with her Head Teacher, Keith Ford, but has been told to remove the hijab or face continued isolation. She has also spoken with the Equal Opportunity teacher: " She is sympathetic to us but she told me she cannot do anything as the Head Teacher has the final say."

Mr Ford acknowledged that two pupils were placed in isolation and said the "head scarf is not part of the uniform." When asked why Sikh boys are allowed to wear the turban when it is not part of the uniform, Mr Ford replied: " we took legal advice and were told that Sikhs are protected by law. I am not going to break the law."

[Suomipoika]

yeah ! Religion is extremely important..

So basically you want to be priviliged over others instead of equality for all ways of life?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ sis!! i found that shocking, where'du get it from :ooh:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So basically you want to be priviliged over others instead of equality for all ways of life?

no, i want u to allow all religions to be fulfilled as long as it does not harm others !

[Neelam92]

^ sis!! i found that shocking, where'du get it from :ooh:

on this webiste cheack it out

http://www.inminds.co.uk/french-hijab-ban.html#t22

:sunny:

[Suomipoika]

no, i want u to allow all religions to be fulfilled as long as it does not harm others !

I actually want that too, as long as all the other ways of life are just as accepted and priviliged as religions. And while they are not, religious people have to follow the same rules others do.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I actually want that too, as long as all the other ways of life are just as accepted and priviliged as religions. And while they are not, religious people have to follow the same rules others do.

mixing religion and culture is like mixing an elephant with an ant.

how can you not see the huge difference?

[Neelam92]

mixing religion and culture is like mixing an elephant with an ant.

how can you not see the huge difference?

when u mix culture and religion it just turns the whol thing upside down!

Like some people love their culture more than they love Islam. and thats why they r wanting to compromise their culture for the sake of their religion.

Cheack this video out the guy says true words!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6bmBfZNgcU

[Suomipoika]

mixing religion and culture is like mixing an elephant with an ant.

how can you not see the huge difference?

I guess Im just too non-religious to see the difference where one value is more worthy than other because its based religion. All I simply want is same treatment to my values as yours. Nothing more, nothing less.

[guyabano]

mixing religion and culture is like mixing an elephant with an ant.

how can you not see the huge difference?

Oh sorry, I married an asian woman, a filipina, and we have a wonderful relationship, 2 lovely children, a third on the way...

So why should the mixing of cultures and religions not work? One of my neighbours (christian) is married with a Thai (Buddhism) and it works perfectly

[Malaikah]

So basically you want to be priviliged over others instead of equality for all ways of life?

Your illusion of equality is nothing short of oppression of religious minorities. Is it equality that some people suffer way more than others as a result of some law that is meant to make people equal? And it isn't only Muslims women who suffer either. So do Jewish and Sikh men.

Oh sorry, I married an asian woman, a filipina, and we have a wonderful relationship, 2 lovely children, a third on the way...

So why should the mixing of cultures and religions not work? One of my neighbours (christian) is married with a Thai (Buddhism) and it works perfectly

I think he means treating culture and religion as the same thing. So banning jeans (cultural dress) is not the same as banning religiously required dress.

But obviously they are to completely different things- jeans are only a personal preference, religious dress is compulsory.

I know of a girl in Turkey suffering from depression because she had to remove her head scarf to continue working. As if anyone is going to suffer from depression for not wearing jeans.

[Suomipoika]

Your illusion of equality is nothing short of oppression of religious minorities. Is it equality that some people suffer way more than others as a result of some law that is meant to make people equal? And it isn't only Muslims women who suffer either. So do Jewish and Sikh men.

So the alternative is to give special status to some groups of people and let the others suffer?

[Malaikah]

No, the alternative is to have NO BAN on religious symbols. Isn't that obvious?:confused:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I think he means treating culture and religion as the same thing. So banning jeans (cultural dress) is the same as banning religiously required dress.
.

JAZAKALLAH KHAIR !!


lol i dont know why that was so hard to understand, is it the way i word it ?


anyway the points across now Alhamdulillah

[IbnAbdulHakim]

So the alternative is to give special status to some groups of people and let the others suffer?

if someone "feels" that they are "suffering" (IN INVERTED BLASTED COMMA'S) due to our fulfilling of our religious obligations (which is mainly worship and good treatment) then they have a serious problem and may make an appointment with a doctor any time !


seriously, i find this more then ridiculous

[Suomipoika]

if someone "feels" that they are "suffering" (IN INVERTED BLASTED COMMA'S) due to our fulfilling of our religious obligations (which is mainly worship and good treatment) then they have a serious problem and may make an appointment with a doctor any time !


seriously, i find this more then ridiculous

They are suffering because they cannot dress how they want, not because you are fulfilling your religious obligations.

[Suomipoika]

No, the alternative is to have NO BAN on religious symbols. Isn't that obvious?:confused:

No, thats again a situation where one group of people are favoured over other based on what they believe is important.

Edit: What about people who want to display non-religious symbols?

[guyabano]

As for myself, I welcome the decision of the court. Schools are a place to learn and not to display religious symbols.
If you don't like, so change the school or leave the country. Simple !

[beespreeteam]

lol, suppression of muslim women the reason for banning it?

i lol'd

[Malaikah]

As for myself, I welcome the decision of the court. Schools are a place to learn and not to display religious symbols.
If you don't like, so change the school or leave the country. Simple !

No, it is not that simple. Not everyone can afford to just leave! Why should their whole lives be ruined because of something so stupid?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

As for myself, I welcome the decision of the court. Schools are a place to learn and not to display religious symbols.

look, seriously, please use your common sense a little.

Many of our muslim women including my own blood sisters feel naked in public without their hijaab. To rob them of their hijaab is to rob their clothing, decency and shame. The hijaab is not meant to offend anyone nor is it there to distract anyone from their studies.


That court has ruled with nothing less then hatred for islam, and anyone who cant see that is blind...

[Amadeus85]

Personally i think that women in hijabs should have right to work in schools for example and other jobs, but in my opinion the niqabs should be banned, because woman who ears this cant integrate and live in western society.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

but in my opinion the niqabs should be banned, because woman who ears this cant integrate and live in western society.

thats the womans choice, why ban her freedom to choose?

[Amadeus85]

thats the womans choice, why ban her freedom to choose?

When a muslim woman wants to leave islam, why ban her freedom to choose? :?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

When a muslim woman wants to leave islam, why ban her freedom to choose? :?

aah i see, you dont realise the difference between a promise and oppression. When someone comes into islam they promise to submit to Allah and devout their whole lives to him and also a proper court is required to carry out the penalty.

When someone comes to another country, lives for a few years and is suddenly forced to completely changed... this is oppression !

[Amadeus85]

aah i see, you dont realise the difference between a promise and oppression. When someone comes into islam they promise to submit to Allah and devout their whole lives to him and also a proper court is required to carry out the penalty.

When someone comes to another country, lives for a few years and is suddenly forced to completely changed... this is oppression !

Ok ok but since christians cant make missionary work in muslim country ( which is a christian duty) , so i guess that it is fair that muslim women shouldnt wear whole body cover niqaabs in christian majority countries. :D

[guyabano]

I like this thread because it shows, how muslims request us to be more tolerant, but on other side, when it comes to other concern, the tolerance of muslims, "the kuffars must die" or all women of Atheists are *****s !

This honestly makes me sick ! I'm sorry for these words, but they really pass through my mind now !

[- Qatada -]

I like this thread because it shows, how muslims request us to be more tolerant, but on other side, when it comes to other concern, the tolerance of muslims, "the kuffars must die" or all women of Atheists are *****s !

This honestly makes me sick ! I'm sorry for these words, but they really pass through my mind now !

I'll tell you something amazing guyabano, if the state that this Muslim woman lives in allows people to have freedom in what to wear - then she should have a right to wear what she wants.

So no-one can force a woman who wears a miniskirt to wear something modest, and no-one can force a woman with a modest clothing to dress immodestly either. Why? Because people have a freedom of rights in this society in regard to what they can wear.


If someone limits someone in what they can and cannot wear, this then means that this freedom which this state had earlier on isn't really freedom anymore, rather - it's enforcing people to dress one way, which then means that it's not really liberal any longer, rather it's leaning more towards extremism as the people of this state may say.

The same way they say that Muslim women are oppressed in the Muslim lands by having to wear modest clothes, they are doing the exact same thing, except they are turning the tables 180 degrees in the opposite manner. They are forcing women to dress immodestly (as we can see on the media), and they are forbidding women to dress modestly in the way they want to dress (no matter what way it is, if it includes the hijab or niqab etc.)



And about your 'the kuffars must die' statement - i've seen you mention that too much times now, and it's getting quite tiring. Since it's not based on any proofs from Islam anyway.





Peace.

[- Qatada -]

When a muslim woman wants to leave islam, why ban her freedom to choose? :?

Aaron, stoning someone to death if they worship someone else is part of Christianity and Judaism. :)




Peace.

[جوري]

wow.. I wonder if they would pass such a ruling on someone who is on chemotherapy or actinotherapy and wishes to guard their dignity by wearing a scarf?.. what a strange world, now telling people of the level of nakedness that is required of them that is acceptable.. when did freedom of religion become freedom from religion?...
Glad I don't live in nazi Germany, they can't seem to rid themselves of their shady past... reminds me of an experiment by Milgram Stanley a 'Behavioural Study of Obedience'---Maybe it really is the nature of man to opress and be wicked.. Sob7an Allah...

peace!

[Keltoi]

Aaron, stoning someone to death if they worship someone else is part of Christianity and Judaism. :)




Peace.

Just a correction, stoning is not an accepted punishment for anything in Christianity. Jesus Christ stopped a stoning from happening, which is the example we follow.

[Suomipoika]

I'll tell you something amazing guyabano, if the state that this Muslim woman lives in allows people to have freedom in what to wear - then she should have a right to wear what she wants.

So no-one can force a woman who wears a miniskirt to wear something modest, and no-one can force a woman with a modest clothing to dress immodestly either. Why? Because people have a freedom of rights in this society in regard to what they can wear.

If someone limits someone in what they can and cannot wear, this then means that this freedom which this state had earlier on isn't really freedom anymore, rather - it's enforcing people to dress one way, which then means that it's not really liberal any longer, rather it's leaning more towards extremism as the people of this state may say.

Yes, as long as they are on their own time. Compare for example internet discussion forum, based in USA, the owner of the forum can dictate what is allowed to say. If he wants to ban people from saying red, then anyone saying red will be banned. Does this mean that USA doesnt have freedom of speech because you cannot express it everywhere all the time? Same way as the owner of the discussion forum can ban things he doesnt feel are suitable, the employer can ban things at his work place that arent suitable, for whatever reason.

When you are on your own time, you can express yourself anyway you want, when you are on someone elses time, you have to follow their rules, how silly they may be. Just the way it works for everyone else.

[Amadeus85]

I like this thread because it shows, how muslims request us to be more tolerant, but on other side, when it comes to other concern, the tolerance of muslims, "the kuffars must die" or all women of Atheists are *****s !

This honestly makes me sick ! I'm sorry for these words, but they really pass through my mind now !

Yes you are quite right. Muslims are biggest supporters of religious freedom, but in non muslim countries. Why not in muslim countries?

[Amadeus85]

Aaron, stoning someone to death if they worship someone else is part of Christianity and Judaism. :)




Peace.

Yes, everyday we see examples of this in christian world and in Israel.

[guyabano]

And about your 'the kuffars must die' statement - i've seen you mention that too much times now, and it's getting quite tiring. Since it's not based on any proofs from Islam anyway.
Peace.

Oh, do I mention it often? hmmm, what about some very particular muslim forum members who give nothing on western values? I never hear you telling them these words.

It's little bit off topic, but I was really upset about some particular comments, that Westeners must always be so tolerant, openminded and accept everything, you put in front of their nose, embrace Islam etc...
If they don't do, well...you know the lyrics.
But on other side, yeahh.. you know the lyrics too !

I just give my opinion, that I accept this decision, that any religious symbols, no matter what religion, are banned out of school. So no need for some board members to send me some threating and insulting PM's or whatever bad words.

Now it's time to take my 'calmday' Pill !

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ our tolerance is constantly tested, and i'd expect anyone whos intouch with the media to understand that, clearly you dont...

[guyabano]

^ our tolerance is constantly tested, and i'd expect anyone whos intouch with the media to understand that, clearly you dont...

Yes, might be that the tolerance is tested, but sad to say, there is not much tolerance.

And now, I'm out of this topic. Anyway, I'm pretty sure, these posts will go to the recycle bin

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Yes, might be that the tolerance is tested, but sad to say, there is not much tolerance.

bush/rushdie and jack straw still live, JUST HOW MUCH MORE TOLERANCE DO U WANT???

[Amadeus85]

bush/rushdie and jack straw still live, JUST HOW MUCH MORE TOLERANCE DO U WANT???

We are so gratefull that muslims didnt kill them. :okay:

[Neelam92]

look, seriously, please use your common sense a little.

Many of our muslim women including my own blood sisters feel naked in public without their hijaab. To rob them of their hijaab is to rob their clothing, decency and shame. The hijaab is not meant to offend anyone nor is it there to distract anyone from their studies.


That court has ruled with nothing less then hatred for islam, and anyone who cant see that is blind...

absolutly true bro thanks.
when i dont have my hijab on i feel as tho there is something missing. and i do feel naked. i feel more free with my hijab. i LOVE my hijab!!! :D

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Tolerance works both ways. I myself am very tolerant - though admittedly my translation of tolerance is akin to apathy. In short, I honestly couldn't care less what your skin colour is or what clothes you are wearing, just stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

Anti-social? Possibly.
Tolerant? Heck yes.

As for this particular thread, here are my 8 rupees: You cannot ban a headscarf in a country that allows people to wear what they want. It's quite frankly stupid and only proves my point that humans are full of crap and double standards.

[snakelegs]

:sl:
Tolerance works both ways. I myself am very tolerant - though admittedly my translation of tolerance is akin to apathy. In short, I honestly couldn't care less what your skin colour is or what clothes you are wearing, just stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

Anti-social? Possibly.
Tolerant? Heck yes.

As for this particular thread, here are my 8 rupees: You cannot ban a headscarf in a country that allows people to wear what they want. It's quite frankly stupid and only proves my point that humans are full of crap and double standards.

well said! ;D

[guyabano]

Duh, I like this one. First you say this:

just stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

but then, you go on with this:

You cannot ban a headscarf in a country that allows people to wear what they want.

Ok, so, to recite your words, but in an different way:

Don't like the Ban, so leave the country. and Stay out of our way, and we'll do the same. That's what Germans would tell you using the same words than yours.

Beside, a Headscarf has nothing to do with clothes/wearing. It is an religious expression.

[Keltoi]

:sl:
Tolerance works both ways. I myself am very tolerant - though admittedly my translation of tolerance is akin to apathy. In short, I honestly couldn't care less what your skin colour is or what clothes you are wearing, just stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

Anti-social? Possibly.
Tolerant? Heck yes.

As for this particular thread, here are my 8 rupees: You cannot ban a headscarf in a country that allows people to wear what they want. It's quite frankly stupid and only proves my point that humans are full of crap and double standards.

To be fair, while I don't agree with the decision, this is about attire at public schools, not what dress is allowed in public.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

We are so gratefull that muslims didnt kill them. :okay:

lol ur as sharp as a blade arent you ;D

[KAding]

Remember, this is about the right of teachers to wear headscarf's, not students. Teachers cannot show their religion. You can't hang a cross around your neck, nor put one on the wall. This is despite the fact that it doesn't seemingly 'hurt anyone'. In the West the general rule is that religion does not belong in the classroom, at least not from the teachers side, who is an authority as far as the kids are concerned. France goes much further though, there students aren't allowed to wear a scarf in school.

I personally am torn about the right of teachers to wear a headscarf. I generally believe an employer has a right to enforce some kind of dress code. I can also see how religious symbols don't belong in public schools. I can imagine some parents would get a bit squeamish about it. I mean, I would also get worried if a nun started teaching my children. But then again, who cares about a headscarf, as long as they don't preach their religion to the kids there isn't really a problem, is there?. The whole issue deals with how to interpret the head scarf. Is it a religious symbol? Does it make a political or religious statement? To most it is no doubt just a personal matter, they wear it because it makes them feel better. So I would tend towards allowing it.

The issue whether students can wear headscarf seems much clearer to me. That is a fundamental right, since teenagers are forced to go to school they should not be forced to take of the headscarf.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Teachers cannot show their religion. You can't hang a cross around your neck, nor put one on the wall. .

yeah but do you think God will send you to hell for disobeying his clear commandments whilst you know this life is nothing but a mere delusion made as a stream of tests?

what i mean by the above statement is "ARE THESE ACTS SUCH AS DISPLAYING THE CROSS ETC OBLIGATORY IN CHRISTIANITY?"


understand that hijaab is FARD in islam (highest form of obligation !) and to not do it implies that a muslim woman agrees to the severe punishments prescribed for those who disobey this command!



i hope you understand it a bit better now !

The issue whether students can wear headscarf seems much clearer to me. That is a fundamental right, since teenagers are forced to go to school they should not be forced to take of the headscarf.

hmm i see your point, your right teachers dont hav to be teachers, its not compulsary. :)

[Cognescenti]

It seems to me if the government applied a rule about headscarves after a teacher were hired (and had been wearing one for a while) then there might be some argument, but if the rule is understood ahead of time, it seems well within the rights of the government to make such policy.

On the other hand, as I stated before, it does seem pretty harmless. Seems to me a low-cut dress could be more disruptive than a headscarf.

[Pygoscelis]

I have no problem with muslim women wearing headscarfs.

I just demand that anywhere they can wear a headscarf I be allowed to wear a ski mask. My concern only arises where security and identity are at issue.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

well said! ;D

Well, I do have my moments, though they are often weeks apart.

Duh, I like this one. First you say this:


just stay out of my way and I'll do the same.

but then, you go on with this:


You cannot ban a headscarf in a country that allows people to wear what they want.

The two statements do not contradict each other. I previously stated, a sentence before, that your attire and skin colour mean nothing to me.

Here, I shall translate my statement in as simple terms as possible:

I am not bothered by your skin tone/colour or attire. Simply stay out of my way (e.g. don't walk into me or invade my personal space - which is not the same as leave this country) and I will act accordingly.

Ok, so, to recite your words, but in an different way:

Don't like the Ban, so leave the country. and Stay out of our way, and we'll do the same. That's what Germans would tell you using the same words than yours.

Read previous statement.

Beside, a Headscarf has nothing to do with clothes/wearing. It is an religious expression.

Correction: A personal religious expression. Seriously, what is the problem of a teacher wearing their particular religious garment whether it be a cross or symbol of david or what ever? I mean, surely if this society is all about tolerance, we really shouldn't be bickering over such trivial things, right?

To be fair, while I don't agree with the decision, this is about attire at public schools, not what dress is allowed in public.

Fair enough.

....On the other hand, as I stated before, it does seem pretty harmless. Seems to me a low-cut dress could be more disruptive than a headscarf

That's one way of looking at it. ;D

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I just demand that anywhere they can wear a headscarf I be allowed to wear a ski mask. My concern only arises where security and identity are at issue.

lol thats fair :D im sure muslim women can avoid places which arise suspicion

[NoName55]

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

I just demand that anywhere they can wear a headscarf I be allowed to wear a ski mask. My concern only arises where security and identity are at issue.

any sighted person knows differnce between head scarf and a ski mask aka nikaab.

but the blind and mentally challenged are another matter.

ROFL

[Malaikah]

Beside, a Headscarf has nothing to do with clothes/wearing. It is an religious expression.

This is where you and many others fall into a serious mistake. The headscarf has nothing to do with religious expression, and everything to do with clothes and modesty.

It doesn't matter what we wear on our heads as long as if covers the whole head except for the face. I could wear a beanie and a scarf around my neck, with the hood of a jumper over it, only my face would show and it would meet the requirements and no one would even realise I was doing it for religious reasons it it was a really cold day!

Just because it is an obligation, doesn't mean it is an 'expression' or even a symbol as many people wrongly call it.

[wilberhum]

This is where you and many others fall into a serious mistake. The headscarf has nothing to do with religious expression, and everything to do with clothes and modesty.

So non-Muslims who do not ware a headscarf are not modest. Right?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

So non-Muslims who do not ware a headscarf are not modest. Right?

Less modest. Not the same as not modest :D

[NoName55]

So non-Muslims who do not ware a headscarf are not modest. Right?

come to England and by gum I shall introduce thee to Norah Batty, headscarf n' all
;D


A Christian talks about Hijaab

[Woodrow]

Things that are said in jest are not seen in jest by all people. Keep this thread on topic and watch what is said in jest. It may not be seen in jest by a MOD

[Pygoscelis]

If that was in reference to the post I just had deleted/moved-to-recycle-bin it was not said in jest and nor was it off topic.

[guyabano]

This is where you and many others fall into a serious mistake. The headscarf has nothing to do with religious expression, and everything to do with clothes and modesty.

It doesn't matter what we wear on our heads as long as if covers the whole head except for the face. I could wear a beanie and a scarf around my neck, with the hood of a jumper over it, only my face would show and it would meet the requirements and no one would even realise I was doing it for religious reasons it it was a really cold day!

Just because it is an obligation, doesn't mean it is an 'expression' or even a symbol as many people wrongly call it.

Well, you see it this way, I see it different. Schools are for studying and not to express a religion. Anyway, once, out of school, they can put back their headscarf. Anyway, Germany has choosen this solution, and people have to respect it. Don´t like it, well change school.

[Malaikah]

I'm sorry if that is how you see it guyabano but why should I disobey God and go to hell for something as stupid as people being intolerant of people looking like they belong to a religion.

So this is amazing freedom that Europe has to offer. They have done nothing other than take it to an opposite extreme. It really is freedom of religion being turned into freedom from religion.

So non-Muslims who do not ware a headscarf are not modest. Right?

No, I do not consider it to be a modest form of dress. And it doesn't matter if it is a non-Muslim or Muslims dressed that way. Problem?

It seems to me if the government applied a rule about headscarves after a teacher were hired (and had been wearing one for a while) then there might be some argument, but if the rule is understood ahead of time, it seems well within the rights of the government to make such policy.

And what about all those poor women who studied for years to become teachers and have to still pay of their university debts? Totally put out of a job!

A similar ban was introduced in the southern state of Bavaria in 2005 with the aim of protecting children from the influence of Islamic fundamentalists.

What rubbish! Yeh, sure, make a whole community suffer to keep out that one women who might be fundamental. I wonder what magically law they are going to invent next to keep out male Islamic fundamentalists?

[Amadeus85]

I would like to ask something. What do muslim teachers (men and women) who teach in european schools, think about the things that they teach. I mean what they think about the programme, for example, can muslim teacher in public school teach about evolution theory, if he doesnt agree with this? Or about Israel? A muslim teacher in public european school, is a muslim first or teacher first? Because i think that this is all about. Secular state, Germany, wants to check, do muslims working in public, listen the german law, or Quaran.

[NoName55]

^^ how is this on topic of petty bans on headscarf? or is hijacking threads just part of your overall hate campaign? if so carry on, otherwise use a new thread for new questions

:(

What do muslim teachers (men and women) who teach in european schools, think about the things that they teach

why dont you go around, find some and ask them?

[Cognescenti]

You know...it hardly seems fair to beat up on the Germans about this when the headscarf is banned in all government building (and universities) in Turkey

A Turkish Army officer, if it is discovered his wife wears a Muslim headscarf, will be booted out of the Army.

Now...who was that saying there was no political significance to the wearing of headscarves?

[NoName55]

^^ I have known about Muslims being thrown in jail because Turkish police caught them praying 5 times in one day!

having said that; are your role models for human rights going to be Turkey, India, Egypt and Saudia?

if that is the case then All I can say is Shame on you Germany, o wait are they not the descendants of the people who used to gas entire populations and rob their posessions, for being different and I also remember other things that are to sick to post.

[Woodrow]

I believe everybody has had their say about headscarves. Hijabs.

:threadclo