Secular Liberalism hacking into Islam?

[Muslim Knight]

Secular Liberalism hacking into Islam?


by Abdul Rahman Abdul Talib

These days, we have seen the emergence of neo-muslims trying to shape Islam to fit the secular-liberalism mould. We see people like Chandra Muzaffar and Zainah Anwar spearheading such effort. We also see the rise of the likes of Anti Hadeeth trying to reinterpret the Quran so as to fit the secular-liberal ideology.

Before I begin, allow me to give the background where Islam was introduced in. in “Jahiliya” Arab period, the Arabs were steeped into idol worshipping, gambling, intoxication, disrespect of parents and elders, nakedness, illiteracy, fornication and adultery, prostitution, practice of usury, infanticide, slavery and tribal nationalism.

When Islam came to the Arabian peninsula, Islam eradicated all of that and changed all that, thus, converting a bunch of nomads and backwards people into a world superpower.

Fast forward to today and one will see that the traits of “Jahilliya” are the same as those of the secular liberal reality. One can easily see that corruption of values and morality is the defining trait of the secular liberalism. In other words, what is present before the coming of Islam, is the current reality of the secular liberal west.

If during those days, the resistance to Islam was done in the name of preserving the ways of the elders, now such resistance is done in the name of promoting human rights and liberalism.

So, naturally, Islam has become the anti-thesis of the secular-liberal West. To compound the issue even more, everything that is immoral and corrupted is jusfitied of it’s existence in the name of human rights.

In other words, secular liberalists justify, for instance, adultery as a form of human rights. While in Islam, adultery is not just seen as a sin but also a felony subject to punishment. The masquerade that secular humanist put on to justify felonies like adultery is nothing more than an attempt to confuse Muslims into rejecting Islam.

One acid test that secular liberalist fail to pass is in the matter of usury. While the UN Human Rights Charter speaks of many issues, it had failed to address the issue of usury with complete conviction.

Usury will result in human being to be economically shackled. An individual shackled is and individual without any rights, no matter how much rights one assigns to him. Shackled individuals are by nature right-less. They are at the mercy at their debtors and will submit to their debt master’s wishes.

Failure to condemn practice of usury is a clear indication of secular liberalism paradox. In actual fact, rights are actually determined by those who have money.

That explains why in Western democracy, political agendas are determined by major Corporations. Since the media are also in the hands of the major corporation, agendas fitting their economic agenda are the ones allowed to be dissaminated to the public.

That explains why the entire US media, despite the notion that they are free, were in unison in their support for the war in Iraq. In fact, the war in Iraq is economically benefiting each and every one of the media conglomerates owning all the medias in the USA.

“Jahilliya” practices is also benefiting the Major Corporation agenda of making money. We all are very well aware of the amount of profits made from the gambling and liquor industry. They make billions of dollars in profits regardless if the economic situation is good or bad.

“Free sex” and nakedness, which is one of the trait of the “Jahiliiya” culture, helps corporations to sell their products. Their ads are filled with scantily clad models selling items from canned soup to insurance to just about anything that has nothing to do with sex. Sex sells so if you use sex you will sell your merchandise.

Also, the cosmetics and fashion industries thrive on nakedness. They seem to be able to push their products by exposing men and women’s body parts to the public. The more nakedness is present, the more merchandise they sell.

Islam seems to be a thorn in their side. In order to wipe Islam from being a comprehensive way of life, they advance the agenda of “freedom of religion”. Such freedom is meant to recognised the right to apostasy. What it will do is reduce Islam to a mere set of beliefs and thus destroying the role of Islam as a comprehensive way of life.

In short, the bad rap that Islam is getting right now is nothing more than attacks made by agents of immorality and decadent that is bent to destroy humanity.


http://malaysia-today.net/blog2006/l...?itemid=7382#c

[جوري]

people plan and plot but Allah is the best of Planners!.. I think all these events are just a wake up call and a revival to a hibernating empire.. and if you read of the 'signs of the end' you'll see it is all happening in concert with all that we've been told--it is all like clockwork!... this is the impetus that will drive the devout and the hypocrites apart so that it is very clear what grounds everyone stands on...
:w:

[Isambard]

I agree with your arguement up until the part of 'trying to wipe out Islam'. Lets face it, if the west really wanted to, it could. It would actually be cheaper and more efficient to flood the arab lands with money than to do what they are doing now.

So then, why continue? Simple. It works both ways. The big money corps. and fundamentals both win! Its actually a symbiotic relationship. One gains monetarily and the other in influence in causes that would normally be ignored. The latter tactic was lifted straight from Hittler to 'encourage' ppl to think like they do.

Judging from your post, id say you have been effected as well. The entire purpose of the relationship is to create an us vs. them mentallity and polarize the middle which would normally stay neutral by creating both push and pull factors.

Id say best way to defeat said problem is to take a step back and sober yourself from both religious fanatizism and socio-political bias. Speak out agaisnt everyone essentially.

[جوري]

The west could never wipe out Islam, we'd swallow you whole.. there is 1.86 billion of us, and we are not concentrated in the 'Arab land' in fact arab lands make only 20% of current Muslims.. perhaps you should run some demographics before recycling the same ole rhetoric?
If there is a world war III in the horizon with clear intent to 'wipe out Islam' I assure you every man, woman and child will fight to the death at that point, I don't see victory for anyone in particular.. your precious Israel is right in the middle if you so wished to 'nuke' they'd perish right along.. and what do you know a republican Jesus won't want to descend on ruins on a silver cloud as so many righties perceive!

There was a time when the tiny little Island of Japan defeated big bear in 1905.. I don't think your size or your money and especially the whole carpet bombing method has anything to do with intelligent warfare!

Best assume the Atheist stance and just be an 'innocent spectator'.. I don't think your opinion counts for much when it comes to socio-economic and geo-political conditions in various parts of the world!

Peace!

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[Scruffy]

MK, interesting piece in that it is a good example of non-impartial journalism. I feel compelled to comment:

In short, the bad rap that Islam is getting right now is nothing more than attacks made by agents of immorality and decadent that is bent to destroy humanity.

The bad rap that Islam is getting is because fanatics continue to target, and blow up, civilians, in the name of Islam - Muslim & non-Muslim alike. Why would "agents of immorality" be bent on destroying humanity? It doesn't make sense.:muddlehea

If one is of the opinion that humans are just mammals then sexuality, nuidity and fornication etc are natural instincts that have evolved in order to sucessfully propogate the species. Same as we see in all other animals. It is not surprising that this is an effective gimmick/tool that advertisers have at their disposal. I know you guys won't agree with this however I'm just trying to illustrate the secular perspective for your better understanding.

One of the central arguments of the piece was the implication that usury is some sort of UN conspiracy to enslave the human race. I understand that the prohibition on charging interest is part of Islamic doctrine but to a non-Muslim it is absolutely absurd. Debt, if managed responsibly, can be a mechanism for economic liberation, in fact it is an indispensable component of the market system. Debt can be a good thing. Without it, prosperity would be unobtainable by almost everybody. I guess this is why Halal debt is becoming more widespread as Islamic finance grows both in sophistication and market penetration however; it is simply repackaged traditional debt, reworded and using a rejigged calculation to avoid the use of a percentage function. The prohibition of interest is illogical, this is demonstrated by the existence of the Islamic finance industry.

As a great example of debt as a positive force, witness Prof Muhammed Yunus, who won the Nobel Peace prize last year for providing microcredit to the Bangladeshi poor: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...006/press.html

Locks and iron bars are also used to enslave people but there's not prohibition on those, they're quite useful as well.

I agree with the authors that large corporations dictate some of the political agenda in Western democracies, in part. I don't think that other political systems are any more immune to the agenda being set by economic greed though. This is particularly prevalent in the US where that muppet Bush and his cronies have bent the American people over and passed the lube to some corporations and in the process breaking the system.

As to the comments on apostasy, I thought Muhammad said that there should be no compulsion in religion??

That piece is such a slanted hodgepodge of unsupportable drivel, generalisations and unsustainable positions that the publication should be ashamed. It obviously has little respect for it readership's ability to think independently. Come to think of it, the Western Press probably doesn't give a toss either.

Best

[Trumble]

Political liberalism began, and still is, about personal freedom - the ability to make your own choices and direct your own life rather than have other people (in the name of their God or otherwise) make them for you. It was a long and hard fight to achieve it. It has drawbacks.. something nobody would deny, but to most people in liberal democracies they are insignificant compared with the benefits. That is why other alternatives to liberalism, such as Marxism, have been rejected.

There is no doubt that, although wildly exaggerated, some of what Talib says has an element of truth. All societies need to draw the line somewhere, and that is what democracy is fundamentally about - where to draw that line. It is not an easy decision sometimes, but liberals believe we have the fundamental right to make it, and that means sometimes getting it wrong. That is the price of freedom. The measure of society is not how it treats those who follow the general consensus of opinion, it is how it treats those who choose not to. Sometimes it is those people, and those alone, who allow humanity to improve and grow.

[Hashim_507]

This Jahiliya days is far worser than the time of Prophet (P.B.U.H), people are loosing there morals such as our own muslim community. Many muslims buying sucular-liberal lies doing whatever they want.

[Pygoscelis]

Islam being formed and reinterpretted to fit secular liberalism? Could this be the start of a similar reformation that brought Christianity out of the dark ages and created the modern west? Perhaps there is hope after all.

[Scruffy]

H507, maybe Muslims are buying in because they're realising the personal, societal and economic benefits of liberalism. Pygoi, dare to dream, one can live in hope to one day see our friends, the inmates of Islam, emancipated.

[Hashim_507]

H507, maybe Muslims are buying in because they're realising the personal, societal and economic benefits of liberalism. Pygoi, dare to dream, one can live in hope to one day see our friends, the inmates of Islam, emancipated.

Islam is truthful religion and guidance to life. Muslims have morals such as lowering its gaze from sexual practices such fornication or adultry itself. Therefore muslims does not consider freedom person running outside naked or getting drunk and acting like a fool. All of those i mention are worldly life beneficial for the secular-liberals people. It does not benefit muslims preparing for afterlife rewards or judgement day trials. There is a reason Quran and Sunnah for muslims to follow because there is always be trials in life such as jahilliyah era is good example.

[KAding]

Interesting post, thanks! I don't have time to post a longer reply, so allow me to make a quick comment.

There is a reason why so many in the Muslim world embraced secularism and Western political ideologies. The Islamic system of government failed on them. The Ottomans, for example, didn't copy the West because they wanted to, they copied the West because their military and political traditions failed to protect them from an increasingly powerful and developed Western world. Industrially, scientifically as well as militarily they were simply outclassed. Islamic government failed the Islamic world, to the point of allowing Western imperialist powers to overrun them.

Some in the Islamic world apparently don't believe that embracing the system that failed them in the first place is the solution to their ills.

[Hashim_507]

Interesting post, thanks! I don't have time to post a longer reply, so allow me to make a quick comment.

There is a reason why so many in the Muslim world embraced secularism and Western political ideologies. The Islamic system of government failed on them. The Ottomans, for example, didn't copy the West because they wanted to, they copied the West because their military and political traditions failed to protect them from an increasingly powerful and developed Western world. Industrially, scientifically as well as militarily they were simply outclassed. Islamic government failed the Islamic world, to the point of allowing Western imperialist powers to overrun them.

Some in the Islamic world apparently don't believe that embracing the system that failed them in the first place is the solution to their ills.

The Islamic system didnt fail the leaders are failers and losers at the end of ottaman empire. The leaders didnt do justice,honest and strong government. Instead they follow there own rules and laws that lead ottoman empire to fall to west. Islamic political tradition is very powerfull system and never fails if the leaders are true muslim like sahabas.Military the ottoman leaders started to enjoy worldly life and forget to upgrade the modern weapons like the western nations using. As for today most of the muslim nations leader in middle or the world are puppet rulers to U.S or the western nations. Such a good example is Saudia Arabia,Kuwait,Dubai. There are good muslim nations that have great succes such Iran and Pakistan they developed alot of advance military weapons, also they have good economic system. Alot of muslims nations had been devide seen the ww1 era; the west goals was to divide and conquare islamic world also destroy the Islamic system.

[Scruffy]

It's interesting that a god (or anyone for that matter) would devise a system that would put his followers at a vast disadvantage to the non-followers. The prohibition of utilising the financial tool of interest is a case in point. Because the central figure had a dislike of interest (I wonder if at some point he was having trouble servicing a debt? or maybe even god was still paying off the mortgage on the cosmos and universal rates went up;D) it become a tenant of the doctrine and therefore financially disadvantaged the adherents.

I wonder if there is a lesson here in the birth and evolution of Islamic finance, might it be possible to generate comparable workarounds to the other retarding, immutable and illogical components of the doctrine? A sort of reformation of sophistication thence allowing the Muslims to prosper.

[beespreeteam]

It's interesting that a god (or anyone for that matter) would devise a system that would put his followers at a vast disadvantage to the non-followers. The prohibition of utilising the financial tool of interest is a case in point. Because the central figure had a dislike of interest (I wonder if at some point he was having trouble servicing a debt? or maybe even god was still paying off the mortgage on the cosmos and universal rates went up;D) it become a tenant of the doctrine and therefore financially disadvantaged the adherents.

I wonder if there is a lesson here in the birth and evolution of Islamic finance, might it be possible to generate comparable workarounds to the other retarding, immutable and illogical components of the doctrine? A sort of reformation of sophistication thence allowing the Muslims to prosper.

I think this shows how one-eyed you actually are. You obviously don't see the vast, vast number of people who are being constantly screwed over by usury, and the use of interest to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. Muslims don't just refuse to pay interest, they don't receive it either.

[beespreeteam]

If you want a good 'financial system', how about following some of Islam and giving 2.5% of your savings to the poor every year? If everyone did that... Oh wait, that would involve giving AWAY money. How silly!

[Scruffy]

Bees, thanks for yor comments, I guess you didn’t see what I posted above, I’d be very interested in what you think about Nobel Peace Prize Winner Prof Muhammed Yunus – check him out he’s a hero (link below), debt is a very useful tool to pull people out of poverty. Here’s what I said:

Debt, if managed responsibly, can be a mechanism for economic liberation, in fact it is an indispensable component of the market system. Debt can be a good thing. Without it, prosperity would be unobtainable by almost everybody. I guess this is why Halal debt is becoming more widespread as Islamic finance grows both in sophistication and market penetration however; it is simply repackaged traditional debt, reworded and using a rejigged calculation to avoid the use of a percentage function. The prohibition of interest is illogical, this is demonstrated by the existence of the Islamic finance industry.

As a great example of debt as a positive force, witness Prof Muhammed Yunus, who won the Nobel Peace prize last year for providing microcredit to the Bangladeshi poor: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/p...006/press.html

As for “vast, vast numbers of people being constantly screwed over by usury” you seem to imply a majority of people with this comment, if so I’ll happily accept your point if you provide credible evidence. Without doubt there are many people struggling with debt but I bet that significantly more people have used, and continue to use, debt to find their way to economic security.

Giving Zakat is not a financial system:rollseyes , it is charity simple.

I think Zakat is the best part of Islam, very noble. And, you have no idea the time and funds I channel to charities, no dogmatic strings attached too.

FREE THE MULSIMS:)

[Pygoscelis]

If you want a good 'financial system', how about following some of Islam and giving 2.5% of your savings to the poor every year? If everyone did that... Oh wait, that would involve giving AWAY money. How silly!

Everyone here does do that. Its called paying your taxes. And its much higher than 2.5%.

[The_Prince]

Islam being formed and reinterpretted to fit secular liberalism? Could this be the start of a similar reformation that brought Christianity out of the dark ages and created the modern west? Perhaps there is hope after all.

Islam is not in the dark ages, we will never sell out our faith to suit your western ideals and backward principles and culture, you can keep dreaming of that but it will never happen.

notice that these people think porn, stripping, fornication, gay same sex marriages, open alcohol use and seeing people acting like morons is all civilized! and they claim we are in the dark ages! these are the very same things sodom and gomorah did, the very same thing pagans of the past used to do until Islam came and destroyed all this immorality and backwardness and replaced it with something pure.

so NO its you who needs to reform and become Muslim and get out of the dark ages since your the one living in the past and dark ages following in the footsteps of pagans who were wiped out by God.

Islam will never become what you want it to which is say hey its ok to have open sex! hey its ok to consume alcohol, hey its ok to gamble, hey its ok to rip poor people off so you can get rich (corporations which you endorse) and on and on it goes.

last but not least you display the typical western arrogance which is why people like you are so heavily despised in the Muslim world, according to you Muslims and Islam are in the dark ages BECAUSE we dont live the western style and way of life, we dont adopt your ways and culture, hence that makes us living in the dark ages and being backwards! how arrogant and idiotic can someone be, infact you are exactly as Allah described the non-believers, aint that interesting?

you will never learn until the two angels question you in the barzakh and then you will know the reality and too bad the reality will be too late for you to change!

[guyabano]

Islam being formed and reinterpretted to fit secular liberalism? Could this be the start of a similar reformation that brought Christianity out of the dark ages and created the modern west? Perhaps there is hope after all.

not all, some prefer to live in the dark ages and have dark thoughts. :D

[The_Prince]

not all, some prefer to live in the dark ages and have dark thoughts. :D

so Muslims who dont want secularism and your western ways of life but rather want to follow Islam think darkly and so on?

admins why do you let such blatant insults and degradation of Muslims on this forum? do you guys have no SLIGHT honor? this may be the internet, but if you cant show some pride for Islam and your fellow Muslims on a forum how will you show it in public?!

these jahils are insulting Allah and the prophet infront of you! Allah told us to follow Islam, and shun the disbelievers way of life, and so did the prophet, and these jahils say this is darkness and thinking darkly, so not only are they insulting us, their insulting the one and true God, and his last and final prophet!

[Bittersteel]

Islamic government didn't fail the Islamic world.Muslims failed Muslims;Muslims in charge failed to carry out their duties,period.Obviously reforms are much needed in today's world,economic ones,but that doesn't mean we should compromise our traditional social values.Many Muslims do it though.

Islam being formed and reinterpretted to fit secular liberalism? Could this be the start of a similar reformation that brought Christianity out of the dark ages and created the modern west? Perhaps there is hope after all.

If western values are so great may I ask why do western nations tend to have broken societies?I know what secular liberalism has done to my country.Freedom to criticize and to have opinions and freedoms for religions aside(which I don't believe are inconsistent with Islamic ideals) there are lots of main aspects of liberalism I hate.

Like I said although I don't pray that much(in fact once or twice a day if I even get the chance),I am still a supporter for conservative traditional values.

how do you define Dutch and French secular liberalism?
Do Muslim women have to wear jeans and t-shirts to prove they have freedom even whent hey don't want to?
I have seen liberals in my country leading pathetic lives living in their own dark worlds surviving on drugs and other intoxicants.why?why why why?

[The_Prince]

guybano here is what Allah says about you:

008.055
YUSUFALI: For the worst of beasts in the sight of Allah are those who reject Him: They will not believe.

this is a lovely verse, because notice it says BEAST, this shows how lowly the true God thinks of people like you he calls you a beast, an animal, infact you are more foolish than the animal because they even know their creator while you reject it. i hope admins dont get too shy from this verse and delete this post, we should not be shy to quote Allah's words against the enemies of Islam and those who insult the Muslims and Islam such as guybano.

[Isambard]

The west could never wipe out Islam, we'd swallow you whole.. there is 1.86 billion of us, and we are not concentrated in the 'Arab land' in fact arab lands make only 20% of current Muslims.. perhaps you should run some demographics before recycling the same ole rhetoric?
If there is a world war III in the horizon with clear intent to 'wipe out Islam' I assure you every man, woman and child will fight to the death at that point, I don't see victory for anyone in particular.. your precious Israel is right in the middle if you so wished to 'nuke' they'd perish right along.. and what do you know a republican Jesus won't want to descend on ruins on a silver cloud as so many righties perceive!

There was a time when the tiny little Island of Japan defeated big bear in 1905.. I don't think your size or your money and especially the whole carpet bombing method has anything to do with intelligent warfare!

Best assume the Atheist stance and just be an 'innocent spectator'.. I don't think your opinion counts for much when it comes to socio-economic and geo-political conditions in various parts of the world!

Peace!

I see the contents of my post completely flew over your head so Ill try again.
Yes, the west could destroy, or at the very least, cripple Islam. Its simply a re-tooling of an old technique used against the Jews and christians. Essentially remove their 'Satan' and add a bit of fuel. You wouldnt even have to use nukes if you wanted Islam shattered. Simply remove yourself from the Middle-east (getting rid of the common enemy) and flood the region with money. Ever seen what happens when you have hyper-inflation? Ever see what happens when you have hyper-inflation in a already volatile region? Exactly.

Seeing as the rest of the 80% are scattered across the globe, they wouldnt be hard to find either. Not that it would matter as you only need remove the powerbase.

Now why doesnt the West do? Could it be because it doesnt actually seek the destroy Islam? *gasp!*

As for atheists not having much power, its really irrelevant. As long as muslims decide to become polarized and see it as an Us vs. Them scernio and continue to piss off the bear so to speak, its only a matter of time other take notice and see Islam itself as a threat and take action.

Now you can either follow my advice and see whats really hurting Ummah, or continue to fight agaisnt this ficticious crusade agaisnt Islam.

Before you bother posting, take the time to *read* my post this time.

Thankyou

[The_Prince]

here is another 2 beutiful verses talking about people like you guybano:

039.071
YUSUFALI: The Unbelievers will be led to Hell in crowd: until, when they arrive, there, its gates will be opened. And its keepers will say, "Did not messengers come to you from among yourselves, rehearsing to you the Signs of your Lord, and warning you of the Meeting of This Day of yours?" The answer will be: "True: but the Decree of Punishment has been proved true against the Unbelievers!"

039.072
YUSUFALI: (To them) will be said: "Enter ye the gates of Hell, to dwell therein: and evil is (this) Abode of the Arrogant!"

you wont be so smart then and when this day comes you will certainly know who was in the dark ages! as for us Muslims this is what Allah says for us:

039.073
YUSUFALI: And those who feared their Lord will be led to the Garden in crowds: until behold, they arrive there; its gates will be opened; and its keepers will say: "Peace be upon you! well have ye done! enter ye here, to dwell therein."

039.074
YUSUFALI: They will say: "Praise be to Allah, Who has truly fulfilled His Promise to us, and has given us (this) land in heritage: We can dwell in the Garden as we will: how excellent a reward for those who work (righteousness)!"

039.075
YUSUFALI: And thou wilt see the angels surrounding the Throne (Divine) on all sides, singing Glory and Praise to their Lord. The Decision between them (at Judgment) will be in (perfect) justice, and the cry (on all sides) will be, "Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!"

ameen! notice the contrasting different places where we shall be heading to, says it all. :)

[The_Prince]

I see the contents of my post completely flew over your head so Ill try again.
Yes, the west could destroy, or at the very least, cripple Islam. Its simply a re-tooling of an old technique used against the Jews and christians. Essentially remove their 'Satan' and add a bit of fuel. You wouldnt even have to use nukes if you wanted Islam shattered. Simply remove yourself from the Middle-east (getting rid of the common enemy) and flood the region with money. Ever seen what happens when you have hyper-inflation? Ever see what happens when you have hyper-inflation in a already volatile region? Exactly.

Seeing as the rest of the 80% are scattered across the globe, they wouldnt be hard to find either. Not that it would matter as you only need remove the powerbase.

Now why doesnt the West do? Could it be because it doesnt actually seek the destroy Islam? *gasp!*

As for atheists not having much power, its really irrelevant. As long as muslims decide to become polarized and see it as an Us vs. Them scernio and continue to piss off the bear so to speak, its only a matter of time other take notice and see Islam itself as a threat and take action.

Now you can either follow my advice and see whats really hurting Ummah, or continue to fight agaisnt this ficticious crusade agaisnt Islam.

Before you bother posting, take the time to *read* my post this time.

Thankyou

Incorrect, you cannot destroy Islam, no matter what you do, whether you use nukes, flood us with money, whatever idea you are thinking off. the reason for this is because Allah has promised his final prophet that Islam and the Muslims would never be wiped out, we would be oppresed and suffer hardship, but we would not be destroyed and neither would Islam. so this is why you will never destroy Islam nor the Muslims, Allah will never allow it and he is far more powerful than your nukes, and whatever else you have, now i hope you understand that. :0)

[Isambard]

so Muslims who dont want secularism and your western ways of life but rather want to follow Islam think darkly and so on?

admins why do you let such blatant insults and degradation of Muslims on this forum? do you guys have no SLIGHT honor? this may be the internet, but if you cant show some pride for Islam and your fellow Muslims on a forum how will you show it in public?!

these jahils are insulting Allah and the prophet infront of you! Allah told us to follow Islam, and shun the disbelievers way of life, and so did the prophet, and these jahils say this is darkness and thinking darkly, so not only are they insulting us, their insulting the one and true God, and his last and final prophet!

There is a difference between Islamic philosophy and political Islam. One seems very successful and isnt impeded on in a secular society, the other continues to fail miserably whenever inacted. I am curious as to the number a times a person can try something before they figure out it isnt a good idea. What is your number Prince?

[Isambard]

Incorrect, you cannot destroy Islam, no matter what you do, whether you use nukes, flood us with money, whatever idea you are thinking off. the reason for this is because Allah has promised his final prophet that Islam and the Muslims would never be wiped out, we would be oppresed and suffer hardship, but we would not be destroyed and neither would Islam. so this is why you will never destroy Islam nor the Muslims, Allah will never allow it and he is far more powerful than your nukes, and whatever else you have, now i hope you understand that. :0)

Funny, God promised the same things to the Jews and Christians. I guess he was on break eh?:ooh:

Now instead of puffing out chests and indulging in pride, how about we focus on the real issues instead of chasing windmills?

[The_Prince]

Funny, God promised the same things to the Jews and Christians. I guess he was on break eh?:ooh:

Now instead of puffing out chests and indulging in pride, how about we focus on the real issues instead of chasing windmills?

he promised it? where, show me, go on, dont speak from empty words and last i checked christianity and judaism still exist, so if god promised it then i guess he didnt break his promise did he?

and you trying to brush religous text aside as if it means nothing is just a typical stupid high-horse atheist move to act like your so smart and us religous people are abit silly to quote religious texts. so no instead of acting like your smart, first disprove the religion oh which you atheists can never do! you know i think we Muslims, Christians, and Jews should first unite and get rid of you guys since i rather find you to be the worst bunch of folks :) anyways i am going out now but plz do try to disprove religion and i am sure some other brothers and sisters on here will crush anything you have, even the Christians will too! you atheists got nothing!

[Isambard]

he promised it? where, show me, go on, dont speak from empty words and last i checked christianity and judaism still exist, so if god promised it then i guess he didnt break his promise did he?

and you trying to brush religous text aside as if it means nothing is just a typical stupid high-horse atheist move to act like your so smart and us religous people are abit silly to quote religious texts. so no instead of acting like your smart, first disprove the religion oh which you atheists can never do! you know i think we Muslims, Christians, and Jews should first unite and get rid of you guys since i rather find you to be the worst bunch of folks :) anyways i am going out now but plz do try to disprove religion and i am sure some other brothers and sisters on here will crush anything you have, even the Christians will too! you atheists got nothing!

I see you lack reading comprehension. In the post you quoted I mentioned destroyed *or* crippled. And from the rest of your response I see you completely unfamiliar with christian and jewish history. I suggest you read up on the Second Temple as its embaressing to talk about something you are ignorant about. Here's a good book. http://www.amazon.com/Bandits-Prophe...7622869&sr=8-1

I also dont see the point in me having to disprove anything as I am addressing socio-political issues. But I guess when you have no arguement, only pride, one must indulge in Red Herrings.

[Bittersteel]

Funny, God promised the same things to the Jews and Christians.

and they at least in my perception got what they wanted most.
Prince tone it down a bit will you?

[Cognescenti]

Everyone here does do that. Its called paying your taxes. And its much higher than 2.5%.

:D No kidding

BTW is Zakat 2.5% or is it 4%. I have heard both. I would imagine the low-Zakat mosques are very popular :shade:

[جوري]

I see the contents of my post completely flew over your head so Ill try again.
Yes, the west could destroy, or at the very least, cripple Islam. Its simply a re-tooling of an old technique used against the Jews and christians. Essentially remove their 'Satan' and add a bit of fuel. You wouldnt even have to use nukes if you wanted Islam shattered. Simply remove yourself from the Middle-east (getting rid of the common enemy) and flood the region with money. Ever seen what happens when you have hyper-inflation? Ever see what happens when you have hyper-inflation in a already volatile region? Exactly.

Seeing as the rest of the 80% are scattered across the globe, they wouldnt be hard to find either. Not that it would matter as you only need remove the powerbase.

Now why doesnt the West do? Could it be because it doesnt actually seek the destroy Islam? *gasp!*

As for atheists not having much power, its really irrelevant. As long as muslims decide to become polarized and see it as an Us vs. Them scernio and continue to piss off the bear so to speak, its only a matter of time other take notice and see Islam itself as a threat and take action.

Now you can either follow my advice and see whats really hurting Ummah, or continue to fight agaisnt this ficticious crusade agaisnt Islam.

Before you bother posting, take the time to *read* my post this time.

Thankyou

I don't really enjoy expending much of my time on mindless drivel, I enjoy it even less so, when the 'erudite' pose and answer their own questions... Why would I bother read your nonesense; when this is an obvious soliloquy? You are no political analyst, and I reckon you know even less of history, religion's role in history and warefare. There is so much you are not accounting for with your usual vacuous comments.. sheesh one would think you'd give us a little credit? our most disheveled cave dwellers after all managed to hijack your planes with plastic knives and steer an invisible plane into the pentagon, Imagine what an even more calculating bunch scattered about can do?.. you are not doing well here at all, in fact I think you best suited for a nudist colony with like minds chanting imagine by John Lennon...
I'd advise not to give out advise, I don't think it bears much weight and frankly serves to waste everyone's time including your own.
peace and I am done with this cr@p!

[جوري]

:D No kidding

BTW is Zakat 2.5% or is it 4%. I have heard both. I would imagine the low-Zakat mosques are very popular :shade:

Funny.. since we do pay tax (the higher than 4%) as well as Zakat.. which is 4% minimum higher depending on your generosity.. I don't think pygo is the one to answer you that question?...
I don't enjoy having nearly half of my salary go to worthless causes, from dead beats on well fare to funding illegal wars and occupations but that is how it goes in a high tax state also ( very popular) :coolious: ....

[Isambard]

I don't really enjoy expending much of my time on mindless drivel, I enjoy it even less so, when the 'erudite' pose and answer their own questions... Why would I bother read your nonesense; when this is an obvious soliloquy? You are no political analyst, and I reckon you know even less of history, religion's role in history and warefare. There is so much you are not accounting for with your usual vacuous comments.. sheesh one would think you'd give us a little credit? our most disheveled cave dwellers after all managed to hijack your planes with plastic knives and steer an invisible plane into the pentagon, Imagine what an even more calculating bunch scattered about can do?.. you are not doing well here at all, in fact I think you best suited for a nudist colony with like minds chanting imagine by John Lennon...
I'd advise not to give out advise, I don't think it bears much weight and frankly serves to waste everyone's time including your own.
peace and I am done with this cr@p!

"When the fool hath not a point, he rebuttles with nothing but insults" -Nietzche

[جوري]

"When the fool hath not a point, he rebuttles with nothing but insults" -Nietzche

seems like an adequate assessment of self, thanks for being so forthcoming! :D

Also, it would be really grand if you'd condensed but a memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience to be taken as true by many people, without resorting to dead philosophers... we aren't suddenly going to discover how learned you are when you snatch someone's quote!

peace!

[Trumble]

seems like an adequate assessment of self, thanks for being so forthcoming!

Not of Isambard, but it's certainly an accurate assessment of an alarming number of your posts recently. The "insults" if not the "fool" part, anyway. Before you fire back (not that I'm worth the time or trouble, of course) you might care to go back and re-read some of them. :sunny:

[جوري]

Not of Isambard, but it's certainly an accurate assessment of an alarming number of your posts recently. The "insults" if not the "fool" part, anyway. Before you fire back (not that I'm worth the time or trouble, of course) you might care to go back and re-read some of them. :sunny:

I know how you like to insinuate yourself into conversations, but does this concern you? if you are all too keen on how you aren't 'worth the trouble' and agreebly so, why are you here? Are you looking for validation and the support of your fellow atheists or it was just itching you, from the numerous times you've lost face out of self-professed enlightenment on topics you were clearly not equiped to handle??
I believe you can get all the support you need from the Dawkin net! I am yet to see a piece that is anything but morally, politically and psychologically reprehensible as written by an atheist!

I believe you are admirably into recycling, how the world is 'polarized' with an us vs. them, cutting through all the drivel it is the only distilled notion of 'substance' one is to infer from an atheist.. I suggest you stay away from either poles then, and enjoy your free time. Life is too short to waste on an unappreciative audience!

peace!

[Isambard]

seems like an adequate assessment of self, thanks for being so forthcoming! :D

Also, it would be really grand if you'd condensed but a memorable saying embodying some important fact of experience to be taken as true by many people, without resorting to dead philosophers... we aren't suddenly going to discover how learned you are when you snatch someone's quote!

peace!

You failed to provide any rebuttle
You failed to make any sort of point
You failed to anything really

Your entire post was "you are wrong! so there!" Then some remark about America which I have no idea what it pertains to as I am not American nor am i found of them.

If you are only going to whine and cry, do it elsewhere. If you want to discuss a subject, then I suggest you educate yourself on how to form a coherent response and not just some flame post.

In keeping with the topic, here are some speakers that highlight my point
http://www.ifilm.com/video/2703896

and

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1513.htm

Enjoy :)

[جوري]

I am sorry what point have you? is this a rendition of a 2 year old temper tantrum? I won you fail nyanyanyanyanya? are you for real? stop confabulating! go cool off some where and come back when you are all grown up!
get a grip man!

[Isambard]

I am sorry what point have you? or you like these 2 year old tantrums, I won you fail nyanyanyanyanya? are you for real? stop confabulating!
get a grip man!

My points are in my past replies which you ignored over and over.

[Woodrow]

this thread has gotten well off it's original topic. Time for a break from it. Everybody relax and enjoy a break from the arguments. It may be reopened after a cooling of period and a few posts removed.

:threadclo