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Science101
08-22-2007, 04:11 AM
Hi Everyone! Nice forum!

I was wondering if Allah's presence can be felt during worship. If true then what does it feel like?

Respectfully,

Gary
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جوري
08-22-2007, 06:01 AM
:welcome: aboard Gary.. enjoy your stay
I think to answer your Q is rather subjective.. but Allah's presence can be felt all the time not just during worship.. if you have him in your heart, it feels like a sense of security.. comfort, peace, well being very much like having a safety net.. during Ramadan especially the last ten days, is an ineffable ecstasy.. I don't know that there are words to describe such a feeling? The few times I felt intense happiness in my life have had a sort of after taste that took away from the moment ( if you have ever read the masque of the red death) it would probably describe my brief moments of intense happiness well.. however this feeling of Allah's presence is peaceable, long lasting and doesn't have an aftermath, or a consequence... just a giving calming feeling of content ...
I hope that answers your question?

peace!
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Marzipan<3
08-22-2007, 05:47 PM
Yes, and it's the most beautiful feeling you will ever experience.
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Science101
08-22-2007, 08:41 PM
Thank you PurestAmbrosia for such a warm welcome! You made me feel really good inside and made me glad I found this forum! And I love your signature line "For the skeptic, no amount of proof will be enough, and for the believer, no amount of proof is necessary."

And thank you Marzipan! I was almost certain that is true.

As you might be able to see, I like science. For me, it is a search for what created us. I'm currently curious where the feeling that I heard about is coming from. I am now convinced that this feeling is real. It might be possible for it to be something that resides in our brain that helps connect us to the force(s) that made life possible.

To be scientific I would have to find repeatable empirical evidence that explains this source in detail for it to be taken seriously by the scientific community. Scientists are skeptical people who only want to know how things work, and that is a good thing because it helps prevent science from turning into a religion.

Only question I now have is how do you know it's from Allah? Some will say it is not. How would someone like me explain to them that it truly is from Allah?
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InToTheRain
08-22-2007, 10:05 PM
Originally Posted by Science101
How would someone like me explain to them that it truly is from Allah?
They will just have to take your word for it as words cannot convey the feeling one gets from that experience.

If ones feelings could be passed to another we would have a sollution and also a problem whenever one encounters pain ;D
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Woodrow
08-22-2007, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Science101

As you might be able to see, I like science. For me, it is a search for what created us. I'm currently curious where the feeling that I heard about is coming from. I am now convinced that this feeling is real. It might be possible for it to be something that resides in our brain that helps connect us to the force(s) that made life possible.

To be scientific I would have to find repeatable empirical evidence that explains this source in detail for it to be taken seriously by the scientific community. Scientists are skeptical people who only want to know how things work, and that is a good thing because it helps prevent science from turning into a religion.

Only question I now have is how do you know it's from Allah? Some will say it is not. How would someone like me explain to them that it truly is from Allah?
One problem in discussing matters of faith and belief. There is often a communication gap. A person who accepts by blind faith is unable to grasp the significance of scientific qualification. A person who is limited to empirical measurable evidence is unable to grasp the concept of acceptance through faith.

Now in the case of stating the feeling of the presence of God(swt) the efects are measurable, some things that can be measured and noted will be a change in limbic system activity as measured by an EEG. There will also be a measurable change in the levels of endorphins in the neuro system. these can be measured. The sensations described will be subject to the individuals subjectivity.

Now, the fact is something occurs. The question becomes what is the possible cause?

1. A possible quirk in neurological response.

This raises the question as to why it occurs so often among different people, when engaging in similar activities. This tends to suggest it has a specific cause or causes.

2. A physical stimulation from an external source.

That sound possible and should not be blindly ruled out. But, what I see is that the effect is seen under many different physical conditions. There does not seem to be an identifiable stimuli.

3. The actual presence or influence of God(swt)

This in my view appears to be the only common factor. Although God(swt) can not be physicaly measured, logic dictates that his presence would be detectable by at least some people. Many people, including myself, have experienced this phenomena and we have no other option to offer.
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snakelegs
08-22-2007, 10:45 PM
yes, but it cannot be described because it is beyond words.
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Woodrow
08-22-2007, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
yes, but it cannot be described because it is beyond words.

I consider that to be a very accurate description.















I am not trying to be funny although my reply will be seen by some as humorous. As you said it is something that can not be expressed in words. Those who have yet to feel it have no way to comprehend, those who have experienced it have no need for words, as the concept of the feeling is sufficient communication to describe it.
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czgibson
08-22-2007, 11:08 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Now in the case of stating the feeling of the presence of God(swt) the efects are measurable, some things that can be measured and noted will be a change in limbic system activity as measured by an EEG. There will also be a measurable change in the levels of endorphins in the neuro system. these can be measured. The sensations described will be subject to the individuals subjectivity.
Wow! Source?

Many people, including myself, have experienced this phenomena and we have no other option to offer.
Is 'unexplained' an option?

Peace
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جوري
08-22-2007, 11:37 PM
I will give several articles on the affects of beliefs, prayer and religion on healing and well being when I have the time, but several have actually been posted and are scattered about this forum already..

as for 'unexplained', it all depends on how familiar you are with research in medical statistics which is what is employed in such studies.. one book I can recommend off the bat as it gives the most highest yeild topics and quite an easy read--ISBN 078179644x-- so that when I eventually post an article I am not bombarded by the same individuals looking for an opposing article without understanding the confounders in either studies, mirthfully singing how they invalidated the finding with another.. I am through writing essays that fall in deaf ears or I should say fall on blind eyes...

Addendum: science-- It is certainly wonderful to have you aboard, I hope you find what you are looking for here..
peace!
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Woodrow
08-22-2007, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Wow! Source?
Me,

20 plus years experience as a physiological psychologist.

Now trying to recall old text book excerpts from some of my contemporaries who agree with me. I would suggest reading the works of Dr. Jose Delgado, often acknowledged as the father of physiological psychology. He will give you the atheists view as he is an aethiest.

some quick look at the limbic system and endorphins may consider sources.
Endorphins:

Scientists debate whether specific activities release measurable levels of endorphins. Much of the current data comes from animal models which may not be relevant to humans. The studies that do involve humans often measure endorphin plasma levels, which do not necessarily correlate with levels in the CNS. Other studies use a blanket opioid antagonist such as usually naloxone, to indirectly measure the release of endorphins by observing the changes that occur when any endorphin activity that might be present is blocked.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endorphin

For the EEG measurements I found a Christian viewpoint, I will use that as it is slightly different from my views but does support my views.

I will even post an alternate explanation for the EEG changes to pique your curiosity to read the article.

This writer, Todd Murphy, also mentions something called "The Forty Hertz Component," a portion of EEG readout, this data correlates with activity within the temporal lobe (6).) Murphy notes that this EEG activity is present both in waking states and in REM states; however, it is absent in non-REM sleep. Apparently the presence of EEG activity within this region supports evidence that a person is truly "existing," communicating with the world around him, and responding to this world. The presence of two temporal lobes regions on opposing sides of the brain work together as one to produce this communicative activity. In the case of temporal lobe epilepsy, individual's temporal lobes are working disconcertedly, thus producing the feeling that there is another being, in addition to the self, that can be sensed (6).) This would account for the reported experiences of seeing angels or devils.
Source: http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neur...uaeObazee.html

Now to post a few links about Dr. Delgado. I disagree with his religious belifs, but He is in my opinion the most knowledgeable man of Neuro Anatomy to have lived to date.

You might like his views:

"The individual may think that the most important reality is his own existence, but this is only his personal point of view. This lacks historical perspective. Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electronically control the brain. Someday armies and generals will be controlled by electric stimulation of the brain."
Dr José Delgado,
Director of Neuropsychiatry
Yale University Medical School Congressional Record,
No. 26, Vol. 118 February 24, 1974
Source:

http://www.wireheading.com/jose-delgado.html








Is 'unexplained' an option?
I would say it is



Peace
Reply

Yanal
08-23-2007, 12:08 AM
Asalam alakum
Welcome to the forum and i have always felt something when i been praying or talking about Allah(swt) like a little breeze but i do not know exactly if you can feel but what the replies say i hope you understand betetr than my reply
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 12:12 AM
Greetings,

Sorry, what do you mean 'presence'? Because Allah is not Omnipresent. That is not one of His Attributes.
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Umm Yoosuf
08-23-2007, 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
Hi Everyone! Nice forum!

I was wondering if Allah's presence can be felt during worship. If true then what does it feel like?

Respectfully,

Gary

Hello.

Maybe I am the only person confused by your question:


if Allah's presence can be felt during worship
What exactly do you mean?
Reply

Yanal
08-23-2007, 12:26 AM
You are not the only one around i just posted what i thought don't really know the exact meaning
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 12:30 AM
What we are supposed to feel during worship is ikhlaas, sincerity. You can also feel fear, hope, love, reverence and awe, etc. But I've never seen in any text that we're supposed to feel that Allah is around us, although we should know that His Knowledge encompasses everything.
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Woodrow
08-23-2007, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
What we are supposed to feel during worship is ikhlaas, sincerity. You can also feel fear, hope, love, reverence and awe, etc. But I've never seen in any text that we're supposed to feel that Allah is around us, although we should know that His Knowledge encompasses everything.
Agreed. After reading this perhaps what we call the feeling of Allah(swt) is a deep feeling of what you had written. That could very well be what we interpret as feeling the presence.
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seeker_of_ilm
08-23-2007, 12:47 AM
:sl:

I think it would all depend on how you define and interpret feeling Allaah's presence. People cry whilst worshipping. It could be argued they are feeling Allaah's presence, through being mindful of him. Sometimes after praying Salaah people feel serenity, it could be argued they are feeling Allaah's presence. So on and so forth.

:w:
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czgibson
08-23-2007, 12:49 AM
Greetings Woodrow,
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Me,

20 plus years experience as a physiological psychologist.
So you are the source. :)

Is it fair to say that these observable changes are unique to religious experiences?


I would say it is
It's often the most likely candidate in these scenarios.

Peace
Reply

Woodrow
08-23-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings Woodrow,


So you are the source. :)
Is it fair to say that these observable changes are unique to religious experiences?
Of course not. I can only state that those are the conditions I have seen. the various readings I have read are consistent with what I observed.

Have there been other conclusions?

I am certain there have been. I just have not seen them. The alternate conclusion that I find plausible is the possibility of minor temporal lobe seizures. However, it is virtually impossible to prove seizure activity without an EEG being done during an active seizure and being able to see the characteristic spindle pattern on the EEG.


It's often the most likely candidate in these scenarios.
Anonymous is my favorite author of unknown. Unknown is the only correct answer, until we have some reason to see a source.

Peace
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by seeker_of_ilm
:sl:

I think it would all depend on how you define and interpret feeling Allaah's presence. People cry whilst worshipping. It could be argued they are feeling Allaah's presence, through being mindful of him. Sometimes after praying Salaah people feel serenity, it could be argued they are feeling Allaah's presence. So on and so forth.

:w:
:wasalamex

Hmmm, but wouldn't that be defined as Taqwah? Being aware of Allah? Or even khashyah? I think whatever it is people feel, there is a legal definition for it. Using the term 'Feeling Allah's Presence' may confuse some people who are not well grounded in 'aqeedah, and personally I would rather stay away from it.
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seeker_of_ilm
08-23-2007, 01:31 AM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
:wasalamex

Hmmm, but wouldn't that be defined as Taqwah? Being aware of Allah? Or even khashyah? I think whatever it is people feel, there is a legal definition for it. Using the term 'Feeling Allah's Presence' may confuse some people who are not well grounded in 'aqeedah, and personally I would rather stay away from it.
:sl:

I agree, it being termed "feeling Allaah's presence", could open doors to innovative beliefs. Which is why I said "feel his presence through being mindful of him". Being mindful of Allaah and being aware of him, can be a way of "feeling his presence", in the sense that your imaan is strengthened by it.
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Woodrow
08-23-2007, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by Al Muwahhidah
:wasalamex

Hmmm, but wouldn't that be defined as Taqwah? Being aware of Allah? Or even khashyah? I think whatever it is people feel, there is a legal definition for it. Using the term 'Feeling Allah's Presence' may confuse some people who are not well grounded in 'aqeedah, and personally I would rather stay away from it.
Good suggestion.

Perhaps this can be used as a means to give us a chance to describe what we mean in compliance with what is correct. Those of us who are reverts are aware of what is felt when the words feeling the presence of God(swt) are spoken. However, I see now that is not the correct description or terminology of what is felt.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 01:36 AM
Originally Posted by seeker_of_ilm
:sl:

I agree, it being termed "feeling Allaah's presence", could open doors to innovative beliefs. Which is why I said "feel his presence through being mindful of him". Being mindful of Allaah and being aware of him, can be a way of "feeling his presence", in the sense that your imaan is strengthened by it.
:wasalamex

I guess I have a problem with is the word 'presence'. I still think that it would be better to say, 'Being mindful of Allah'. But I suppose it depends on how you understand the term.
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seeker_of_ilm
08-23-2007, 01:40 AM
:sl:

Yes, the phrase "feeling his presence" can be very ambiguous. This is why I said it would depend on how you define and interpret "feeling his presence". There are many baseless beliefs, whereby some people even go into trance like states, where they claim they are "feeling Allaah's presence". This is why its important to be clear.

:w:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 01:42 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Good suggestion.

Perhaps this can be used as a means to give us a chance to describe what we mean in compliance with what is correct. Those of us who are reverts are aware of what is felt when the words feeling the presence of God(swt) are spoken. However, I see now that is not the correct description or terminology of what is felt.
Yeah that's true 3amu. However, someone may intend something good yet it may lead to something bad. Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud said to group of Muslims who were sitting in a masjid and performing collective dhikr (saying Alhamdulillah, Allahu akbar, etc.)

'Woe to you, O Ummah of Muhammad! How fast is your distruction. The companions of the Prophet are still around, and his clothes are not warn out yet (meaning the Prophet's) and his utensils are not broken yet. By the One in Whose hand is my life, you are either following a religion better than the deen of Muhammad, or charging into a gate of deviation.' They said, 'By Allah, O Abu Abdurrahman, we only intended to do good.' He said 'How many who intend to do good, but never accomplish it.' [Ad-Daarimee]

Allahu A'lam. Perhaps I am exaggerating.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
08-23-2007, 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by seeker_of_ilm
:sl:

Yes, the phrase "feeling his presence" can be very ambiguous. This is why I said it would depend on how you define and interpret "feeling his presence". There are many baseless beliefs, whereby some people even go into trance like states, where they claim they are "feeling Allaah's presence". This is why its important to be clear.

:w:
Yeah that's why I was very unsure about the term. There are even some who actually think that Allah is everywhere, wa na'udhubillah min dhalik. Ok let's go back on-topic inshaAllah. I think i've hijacked this thread.
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Woodrow
08-23-2007, 01:46 AM
:w:

Far better we take the best choice to avoid the possibility of misleading anyone.

:threadclo
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