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View Full Version : Iraqi death toll-- pls sign a petition



جوري
08-24-2007, 09:37 PM
Source:
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq/iraqdeaths.html

Number Of Iraqis Slaughtered In America's War on Iraq 1,018,263


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Number of U.S. Military Personnel Sacrificed (Officially acknowledged) In America's War On Iraq 3,723


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Cost of U.S. War and Occupation of Iraq

$454,541,542,411

The number is shocking and sobering.


It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, yet it is based on the only scientifically valid study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003.

That study, published in prestigious medical journal The Lancet, estimated that over 600,000 Iraqis had been killed as a result of the invasion as of July 2006. Iraqis have continued to be killed since then. The graphic above provides a rough daily update of this number based on a rate of increase derived from the Iraq Body Count. (See the complete explanation.)

This devastating human toll demands greater recognition. It eclipses the Rwandan genocide and our leaders are directly responsible. Little wonder they do not publicly cite it. Here is simple HTML code to post the counter to your website and help spread the word.



Actions you can take right now
Sign the petition telling Congress that about a million Iraqis have likely been killed and urging them to end this war now. A large number of signatures on this and other petitions is a compelling way to keep pressure on Congress as there are more votes on the war. Add your name»

Write a letter to the Editor: Letters are one of the most frequently-read sections of a newspaper. Our tool makes it easy to craft one. Write a letter»

Tell your friends about this estimate of Iraqi deaths. Spread the word now»



Support this Campaign
With a tax-deductible contribution, you can help us continue this important work. Click to contribute.



Post the Iraqi Death Estimator on your website
Fight attempts to minimize Iraqi suffering and remind visitors to your site of the awful human costs of continued war.

Here is some simple code that you can cut and paste into the HTML of your website. The counter will automatically update over time.
(see website enclosed on top pls)
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yigiter187
08-24-2007, 09:42 PM
1,018,263 lives of muslim are not more precise than 1,018,263lt oil for usa...
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جوري
08-24-2007, 10:17 PM
You should read suret al-anfal.. there is a verse in there that brings me great joy and comfort of the end result of their war
:w:
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جوري
08-24-2007, 10:22 PM
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Science101
08-25-2007, 01:26 AM
In order to help prevent panic I first have to post another link that tracks all deaths reported by the media. It is nowhere near the figure given above and unreported fatalities should not add that much more.
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/database/
I also want to see an end to the Iraq conflict. But how do you personally think that can be done without history repeating itself again and again? As you can see it's a region that has seen constant turmoil.

Republic of Iraq
The reinstated Hashemite monarchy lasted until 1958, when it was overthrown by a coup d'etat of the Iraqi Army, known as the 14 July Revolution. The coup brought Brigadier General Abdul Karim Qassim to power. He withdrew from the Baghdad Pact and established friendly relations with the Soviet Union, but his government lasted only until 1963, when it was overthrown by Colonel Abdul Salam Arif. Salam Arif died in 1966 and his brother, Abdul Rahman Arif, assumed the presidency. In 1968, Rahman Arif was overthrown by the Arab Socialist Baath Party. This movement gradually came under the control of Saddam Hussein al-Majid al Tikriti, who acceded to the presidency and control of the Revolutionary Command Council (RCC), then Iraq's supreme executive body, in July 1979, while killing many of his opponents.


Saddam Hussein
Main article: Saddam Hussein
Saddam's regime lasted throughout the Iran-Iraq War (1980–1988), during which Iraqi forces attacked Iranian soldiers and civilians with chemical weapons. The war ended in stalemate, largely due to American and Western support for Iraq. This was part of the US policy of "dual containment" of Iraq and Iran. This period is notorious for the Saddam regime's human rights abuses, for instance, during the Al-Anfal campaign.[6][7][8]

In 1977, the Iraqi government ordered the construction of Osirak (also spelled Osiraq) at the Al Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Center, 18 km (11 miles) south-east of Baghdad. It was a 40 MW light-water nuclear materials testing reactor (MTR). In 1981, Israeli aircraft bombed the facility, in order to prevent the country from using the reactor for creation of nuclear weapons.

Main article: Gulf War
In 1990, Iraq invaded Kuwait, resulting in the Gulf War and economic sanctions imposed by the United Nations at the behest of the U.S. The economic sanctions were intended to compel Saddam to dispose of weapons of mass destruction.[9] Critics estimate that more than 500,000 Iraqi children died as a result of the sanctions.[10] The U.S. and the UK declared no-fly zones over Kurdish northern and Shiite southern Iraq to oversee the Kurds and southern Shiites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq

The only solution I know of that history has shown can work, is a strong government that represents all of the people who live there. That will take some more time. Might need another election cycle in a period of relative calm for more good leaders to be able to enter politics.

At the moment, Iraq is more tranquil than the news headlines would indicate. There are still conflicts, but it's not all out "war" across the entire country. We must not let panic consume us.

If the coalition forces now helping with security were to pull out now, then the country will be back to the same cycle of conflicts, another dictator can take over in which case the UN will vote the sanctions back in place that not even the USA can prevent on its own, and there will be an even greater atrocity.

So how do we end this conflict without making matters worse? Or should we just give the country to Al-Qaeda who has been trying to take over since the 1990's or earlier? Anyone?
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جوري
08-25-2007, 01:35 AM
wikipedia isn't a reputable source, in fact I just posted an article just a couple of weeks ago about how it is being tampered with by congress!
I am sure they wouldn't tamper with the death toll because they are so honest--

dying by the one or the million ISN'T justifiable no matter what you think the alternative is.. I am rather amused by your logic...
Al Qaeda, easter bunny, santi clause, it doesn't really matter at this point just get colonial settlers out! if you don't want to sign the petition THEN DON'T.. it is that simple, it isn't really a topic for debate!
peace!
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جوري
08-25-2007, 01:36 AM
Wikipedia 'shows CIA page edits'
By Jonathan Fildes
Science and technology reporter, BBC News

An online tool that claims to reveal the identity of organisations that edit Wikipedia pages has revealed that the CIA was involved in editing entries.
Wikipedia Scanner allegedly shows that workers on the agency's computers made edits to the page of Iran's president.

It also purportedly shows that the Vatican has edited entries about Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams.

The tool, developed by US researchers, trawls a list of 5.3m edits and matches them to the net address of the editor.

Wikipedia is a free online encyclopaedia that can be created and edited by anyone.

Most of the edits detected by the scanner correct spelling mistakes or factual inaccuracies in profiles. However, others have been used to remove potentially damaging material or to deface sites.

Mistaken identity

On the profile of Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the tool indicates that a worker on the CIA network reportedly added the exclamation "Wahhhhhh!" before a section on the leader's plans for his presidency.

A warning on the profile of the anonymous editor reads: "You have recently vandalised a Wikipedia article, and you are now being asked to stop this type of behaviour."


Other changes that have been made are more innocuous, and include tweaks to the profile of former CIA chief Porter Goss and celebrities such as Oprah Winfrey.

When asked whether it could confirm whether the changes had been made by a person using a CIA computer, an agency spokesperson responded: "I cannot confirm that the traffic you cite came from agency computers.

"I'd like in any case to underscore a far larger and more significant point that no one should doubt or forget: The CIA has a vital mission in protecting the United States, and the focus of this agency is there, on that decisive work."

Radio change

The site also indicates that a computer owned by the US Democratic Party was used to make changes to the site of right-wing talk show host Rush Limbaugh.

The changes brand Mr Limbaugh as "idiotic," a "racist", and a "bigot". An entry about his audience now reads: "Most of them are legally retarded."


We really value transparency and the scanner really takes this to another level
Wikipedia spokesperson

The IP address is registered in the name of the Democratic National Headquarters.

A spokesperson for the Democratic Party said that the changes had not been made on its computers. Instead, they said that the "IP address is the same as the DCCC".

The DCCC, or Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, is the "official campaign arm of the Democrats" in the House of Representatives and shares a building with the party.

"We don't condone these sorts of activities and we take every precaution to ensure that our network is used in a responsible manner," Doug Thornell of the DCCC told the BBC News website.

Mr Thornell pointed out that the edit had been made "close to two years ago" and it was "impossible to know" who had done it.

Voting issue

The site also indicates that Vatican computers were used to remove content from a page about the leader of the Irish republican party Sinn Fein, Gerry Adams.


The edit removed links to newspaper stories written in 2006 that alleged that Mr Adams' fingerprints and handprints were found on a car used during a double murder in 1971.

The section, titled "Fresh murder question raised" is no longer part of the main online encyclopaedia entries.

Wikipedia Scanner also points the finger at commercial organisations that have modified entries about the pages.

One in particular is Diebold, a company which supplies electronic voting machines in the US.

In October 2005, a person using a Diebold computer removed paragraphs about Walden O'Dell, chief executive of the company, which revealed that he had been "a top fund-raiser" for George Bush.

A month later, other paragraphs and links to stories about the alleged rigging of the 2000 election were also removed.

The paragraphs and links have since been reinstated.

Diebold officials have not responded to requests by the BBC for information about the changes.

Web history

The Wikipedia Scanner results are not the first time that people have been uncovered editing their own Wikipedia entries.


Wikipedia Scanner may prevent an organisation or individuals from editing articles that they're really not supposed to
Wikipedia spokesperson

Earlier this year, Microsoft was revealed to have offered money to trawl through entries about document standards it and other companies employ.

Staff at the US Congress have also previously been exposed for editing and removing sensitive information about politicians.

An inquiry was launched after staff for Democratic representative Marty Meehan admitted polishing his biography

The new tool was built by Virgil Griffith of the California Institute of Technology.

It exploits the open nature of Wikipedia, which already collects the net address or username of editors and tracks all changes to a page. The information can be accessed in the "history" tab at the top of a Wikipedia page.

By merging this information with a database of IP address owners, Wikipedia Scanner is able to put a name to the organisation and firms from which edits are made.


THE EDITORS' BLOG
When BBC staff edit Wikipedia, they should not bring the BBC into disrepute
Pete Clifton,
BBC head of interactive news


The scanner cannot identify the individuals editing articles, admits Mr Griffith.

"Technically, we don't know whether it came from an agent of that company, however, we do know that edit came from someone with access to their network," he wrote on the Wikipedia Scanner site.

A spokesperson for Wikipedia said the tool helped prevent conflicts of interest.

"We really value transparency and the scanner really takes this to another level," they said.

"Wikipedia Scanner may prevent an organisation or individuals from editing articles that they're really not supposed to."

BBC News website users contacted the corporation to point out that the tool also revealed that people inside the BBC had made edits to Wikipedia pages.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/h...gy/6947532.stm

Published: 2007/08/15 17:46:28 GMT

© BBC MMVII
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جوري
08-25-2007, 01:45 AM
By the way ask any true Muslim what govt they want, and they will tell you, they want back the mighty Muslim empire, the same like the Abbasid, the Fatimids, even the wickedest of the Ottoman Empire was much better than this... Peter the great with all his might had to retreat to the Ottomans.. Anyhow, I suppose none of this will happen until people uprise against all this injustice, including their own corrupt governments-- having the U.S there isn't helping.. they needed to get out yesterday...
They have left the country in ruins and actually fancy themselves fixing things...
really reminds me of this verse from the Quran

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ لاَ تُفْسِدُواْ فِي الأَرْضِ قَالُواْ إِنَّمَا نَحْنُ مُصْلِحُونَ {11}
[Pickthal 2:11] And when it is said unto them: Make not mischief in the earth, they say: We are peacemakers only.

أَلا إِنَّهُمْ هُمُ الْمُفْسِدُونَ وَلَـكِن لاَّ يَشْعُرُونَ {12}
[Pickthal 2:12] Are not they indeed the mischief-makers? But they perceive not.
peace!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 02:06 AM
I personally have never been able to come to a conclusion of what would cost more lives.
Staying or leaving, a hell of a lot more people are going to die.

PS: Wikipedia 'shows CIA page edits'. So Wikikpedia revealing this information proves it is unreliable. :hiding:
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جوري
08-25-2007, 02:12 AM
depends on just what level of sophomoric you enjoy?.. if it suits you for info-- then by all means.. just don't quote it for me as a source if you expect the article to be taken seriousely...

peace!

p.s wilbur try Netflix-- might prove better use of your time.. stay away from charlotte's web when renting-- I never liked that pig!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 02:16 AM
just don't quote it for me as a source
Your arrogance in never ending. A true reflection of many things.
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Science101
08-25-2007, 02:22 AM
Wikipedia is not being controlled by the CIA or US government. Anyone can edit it and it would be if someone was tampering with the history of Iraq. The history I posted is common knowledge.

The toll I provided in that link is not run by the CIA either, it is run by "anti-war activists" trying to get as high a toll as possible from the press. They are now at less than 71,000 which is nowhere near the million plus figure that you provided.

And I must mention that using the term "colonial settlers" is very biased and inaccurate. The coalition forces are not in Iraq building homes for themselves and their families. And you made statistics the topic, put them in giant purple type, so it's not fair to say to me that "I am rather amused by your logic..." just because I provided another source.

I would have signed the petition if there was a viable alternative plan, but there was no plan at all. In my opinion they are feeding off people's paranoia. Hard to miss their "Donate" button up top and another plea for money right below it.

Maybe you don't care what happens to Iraq, but I do, and the Iraqis sure do too and the consensus there is they want the coalition forces to remain for a little longer to help keep the, peace.

I'm happy seeing the US government doing what the majority of people in the middle of the conflict, the Iraqis, want. Besides, we both want an end to the conflict, as does most of the world. One more petition that says so is not going to change anything.

I'm also curious to know if you know what the petition says. They did not include the wording where they ask you to sign which is very unusual. The exact wording is supposed to be on top so there is no question what you are signing.
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 02:30 AM
Wikipedia is not being controlled by the CIA or US government.
Those that have obtained the ultimate in perfection know better. :skeleton:
Maybe those who have such great knowledge should make it suite there perfection. :-\
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جوري
08-25-2007, 02:32 AM
pls don't speak for the Iraqis, I don't think you even know one! if you do then my humble apologies..
What you deem 'care' or not on my part is inconsequential under any light and goes in the same bin what you deem biased or not.
As to what I am signing on.. well I trust the source implicitly, lots more than wiki which by a 'non-biased' news source BBC has CIA tampering, that is if you've bothered read the article at all?... pls step aside if you don't want to partake in this... I deliberately didn't put this on 'world affairs' as I don't enjoy the disceptations that go on, in there.. don't want to be active in this project, no one is holding a gun to your head..

have a really great day........
Peace!
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جوري
08-25-2007, 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Your arrogance in never ending. A true reflection of many things.
why don't you go report the posts that don't suit you and scram?
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 02:35 AM
Report, already did. Scram, never.
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جوري
08-25-2007, 02:39 AM
oh? why is that .. are you some sort of Germanic character of runic origin?
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 02:52 AM
It is all quite simple. You must have missed it.
Your arrogance in never ending. A true reflection of many things.
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Woodrow
08-25-2007, 02:55 AM
Just a few random thoughts.


Too many people have died.

It has to stop.

What is the best means to stop it with the fewest additional lives being lost.

Past history indicates that most casualties occur as withdrawal accelerates, but is there any other option?
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جوري
08-25-2007, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
It is all quite simple. You must have missed it.
is this argot common to the effete self-professed 'intellectuals'? I don't understand what it is you are trying to say..
perhaps you should reassess your purpose here?.. you are rather ineffectual from my stand point..
Pls don't denigrate my threads with your rhetoric-- there is always tomorrow...that is if 3ithra'el doesn't pay you a visit tonight in your slumber...:D

peace!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
is this argot common to the effete self-professed 'intellectuals'? I don't understand what it is you are trying to say..
perhaps you should reassess your purpose here?.. you are rather ineffectual from my stand point..
Pls don't denigrate my threads with your rhetoric-- there is always tomorrow...that is if 3ithra'el doesn't pay you a visit tonight in your slumber...:D

peace!
Your hate is endless. Your threats are meaningless.:?
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Just a few random thoughts.


Too many people have died.

It has to stop.

What is the best means to stop it with the fewest additional lives being lost.

Past history indicates that most casualties occur as withdrawal accelerates, but is there any other option?
The first person that died was too many.
The thing that perplexes me it with all the sectarian violence, what will happen when we pull out?
I truly fear a worse blood bath. **** if we do, **** if we don't.:thumbs_do
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جوري
08-25-2007, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Your hate is endless. Your threats are meaningless.:?
pls get new material.. you bore me!
I don't have time to waste on hate -- I feel complete Unbiased impartial unconcern, about everything you have to say errr 'write'.. I admit, I am slightly annoyed seeing you pop everywhere.. perhaps if you renew your Avatar or screen name even with your old material, I wouldn't regret openning a thread so much?.. it might seem deceptively new but then I doubt that will do the trick! ^o)
Now just go away.. go annoy someone else and stop ruining my thread!

peace!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
pls get new material.. you bore me!
I don't have time to waste on hate -- I feel complete Unbiased impartial unconcern, about everything you have to say errr 'write'.. I admit, I am slightly annoyed seeing you pop everywhere.. perhaps if you renew your Avatar or screen name even with your old material, I wouldn't regret openning a thread so much?.. it might seem deceptively new but then I doubt that will do the trick! ^o)
Now just go away.. go annoy someone else and stop ruining my thread!

peace!
You just can't address any thing but your empty hate. You really need help. :thumbs_up
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جوري
08-25-2007, 03:24 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You just can't address any thing but your empty hate. You really need help. :thumbs_up
Again, I am not sure what that means?.. try a vitamin B complex, it might help palliate your confabulations.. which is wise before passing advise on how others need help!
peace!
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Science101
08-25-2007, 03:41 AM
What is the best means to stop it with the fewest additional lives being lost.
Past history indicates that most casualties occur as withdrawal accelerates, but is there any other option?
In my opinion Iraq was ready to explode into violence before the coalition forces got there. Saddam would have of course killed all dissenters and their families, again, but at least this time he is gone and there is hope. First step would be to realize that violence would be present no matter what we did. Only question is how much.

I say we take the advice of the people maintaining security and Iraqi opinion which is a double edged sword but most do seem to rather the security troops provide.

And PurestAmbrosia, you did post a very politically charged topic. I'm sure that if I posted something contrary to what you believe then you would be jumping all over it. But please try to relax and not try to find conspiracy in everything, the internet is full of all kinds of foolishness and people stirring everyone up for personal gain. And it only gives wilberhum another opportunity to use the alien smiley.
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:49 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Again, I am not sure what that means?.. try a vitamin B complex, it might help palliate your confabulations.. which is wise before passing advise on how others need help!
peace!
Some one that can score better on a test than anyone else ever did can surly figure out such a simple thing. May be that's it, to simple for your brilliance.
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جوري
08-25-2007, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
And PurestAmbrosia, you did post a very politically charged topic
.
Indeed, then let's not turn it into one!

I'm sure that if I posted something contrary to what you believe then you would be jumping all over it.
this doesn't satisfy the grammatical rules of a language

But please try to relax and not try to find conspiracy in everything,
I am quite relaxed thanks for your concern... by whose expert appraisal do you reckon I should accept something as true?
the internet is full of all kinds of foolishness and people stirring everyone up for personal gain. And it only gives wilberhum another opportunity to use the alien smiley.
Agree here too, I see it has done a great job indoctrinating the lot of you.. what is of concern is when you find everything dubious, even sources you'd readily quote me when it corroborates your line of thinking.. for instance the BBC's article on CIA alteration and revisions of wikipedia-- I'd at least appreciate some consistency-- it appears at times as if you are professing virtues that you do not have!
As for wilbur.. this is just his way to get a thread closed when the material isn't to his liking.. you'll either learn to ignore him or live with him...

peace!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
In my opinion Iraq was ready to explode into violence before the coalition forces got there. Saddam would have of course killed all dissenters and their families, again, but at least this time he is gone and there is hope. First step would be to realize that violence would be present no matter what we did. Only question is how much.

I say we take the advice of the people maintaining security and Iraqi opinion which is a double edged sword but most do seem to rather the security troops provide.

And PurestAmbrosia, you did post a very politically charged topic. I'm sure that if I posted something contrary to what you believe then you would be jumping all over it. But please try to relax and not try to find conspiracy in everything, the internet is full of all kinds of foolishness and people stirring everyone up for personal gain. And it only gives wilberhum another opportunity to use the alien smiley.
I like my alien smiley. It says so much. :skeleton:
I do not disagree with anything you have said. But, there is still the question, Can we ever establish peace. I tend to think not.
We have done such a bad job and made such a mess, I wonder if it will ever be over.
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Science101
08-25-2007, 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
By the way ask any true Muslim what govt they want, and they will tell you, they want back the mighty Muslim empire,
I can't help but point out that speaking of "any true Muslim" is what is now driving the sectarian violence. I have seen Muslims making all kinds of claims that they are the only true Muslims because they claim others do not follow the "tennants of Islam" and such. I know a Sunni that said that of Shia. There are other religions besides Islam there, which in theory still makes then a Muslim in heritage but not religion.

In a secular society only a government that represents all people will work. That could have been what you had on your mind but the way you said it sounds like you support one of the competing militia groups trying to take over the current government.
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 03:57 AM
As for wilbur.. this is just his way to get a thread closed when the material isn't to his liking.. you'll either learn to ignore him or live with him...

peace!
Peace, I just love it, don't you mean hate.
Every time I address the issue, you come back with your intolerance.
If you stop, so will I, but then I know you won't. You will run your thread to closure.
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جوري
08-25-2007, 04:14 AM
[QUOTE=Science101;816836]
I can't help but point out that speaking of "any true Muslim" is what is now driving the sectarian violence.
I don't see how? I stand by the article I have posted earlier, which wasn't to your liking-- wasn't main stream enough for you I am supposing?.. I don't think you have ran a scientific poll with P values, cohorts, and relative risks and proper assessment to make such a statement with this much conviction?.. compounded only by the fact, that you don't know much of Islam, you haven't lived in an Islamic region and I'll go out on a limb and say the closest you have come to an 'islamic society' if such exists, is well-- this very forum? feel free to tell me of your travels and attritions that have led you to such a levelheaded conclusion?

I have seen Muslims making all kinds of claims that they are the only true Muslims because they claim others do not follow the "tennants of Islam" and such.
ok

I know a Sunni that said that of Shia. There are other religions besides Islam there, which in theory still makes then a Muslim in heritage but not religion.
I am afraid you've lost me here!

In a secular society only a government that represents all people will work.
Indeed such a society did exist under the Islamic empires.. you can browse the forum or pick up any curricular history book to corroborate that!


That could have been what you had on your mind but the way you said it sounds like you support one of the competing militia groups trying to take over the current government.
I am not sure why you have concluded that?... but indeed I don't support any of the corrupt govt. of the middle east I think 'Al Qaeda' is something this nit of a president made up to cement his illegal occupations ( he isn't the first moron to have led to the demise of millions) like the handy osama tapes he readily dispenses when his ratings are low..
the craft of warefare, and revolting however is an expansive topic, I doubt can be dealt with her, with any sort of justice or dextrity...

peace!
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Science101
08-25-2007, 04:16 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I like my alien smiley. It says so much. :skeleton:
I do not disagree with anything you have said. But, there is still the question, Can we ever establish peace. I tend to think not.
We have done such a bad job and made such a mess, I wonder if it will ever be over.
I am sure that we can. Will not be easy though. And the groups profiting from raising paranoia is in my opinion the biggest threat.

One thing that surprised me, and might have also been one of the reasons why the White House miscalculated, is how after all of the claims that Muslims follow Sharia law that maintains order even without help from a government the country broke out in looting that trashed the country. Made New Orleans after the hurricane look like a city of angles. That level of chaos did not happen there, was very little in comparison.

I'm convinced that the country was about to erupt into civil war that might have been even worse. Pulling out now would be catastrophic.
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جوري
08-25-2007, 04:21 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
Peace, I just love it, don't you mean hate.
whatever tickles your fancy :confused:
Every time I address the issue, you come back with your intolerance.
Did you dream this? I have never seen one let alone several distinct subdivisions of a text with separate thoughtful ideas to address any topic at hand by you, I think you just fainéant but enjoy the sight of your own SN on every thread?
If you stop, so will I
lol.. You are droll.. if I knew all it would take is get you to have the last word.. how easy you are to please....;D

peace!
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 04:22 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
I am sure that we can. Will not be easy though. And the groups profiting from raising paranoia is in my opinion the biggest threat.

One thing that surprised me, and might have also been one of the reasons why the White House miscalculated, is how after all of the claims that Muslims follow Sharia law that maintains order even without help from a government the country broke out in looting that trashed the country. Made New Orleans after the hurricane look like a city of angles. That level of chaos did not happen there, was very little in comparison.

I'm convinced that the country was about to erupt into civil war that might have been even worse. Pulling out now would be catastrophic.
Again, no disagreement. But, we are so hated, can there be peace it we stay?
Usually I have strong opinions on things like this, but this one just keeps me bouncing back and forth. :skeleton: (There it is again) :D
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wilberhum
08-25-2007, 04:25 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
whatever tickles your fancy :confused:


Did you dream this? I have never seen one let alone several distinct subdivisions of a text with separate thoughtful ideas to address any topic at hand by you, I think you just fainéant but enjoy the sight of your own SN on every thread?


lol.. You are droll.. if I knew all it would take is get you to have the last word.. how easy you are to please....;D

peace!
I knew you couldn't stand it. You are as predictable as my pet dog.
But she isn't mean spirited. You could learn from her. :D

I'm off for the weekend with my wife. It is our 13 anniversary.
So be careful, don't drown in your venom.
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
knew you couldn't stand it. You are as predictable as my pet dog.
I think you are just projecting your feelings here paisano.. this isn't a very mature defense mechanism-- try some reaction formation and less Cognitive dissonance...


But she isn't mean spirited. You could learn from her. :D
I hope she bites you.. and I am only left to wonder why she hasn't rebuffed her guiles on you?

p.s I haven't had dindin yet and it is midnight.. I know how much you were enjoying and looking fwd. to this--but you'll have to play solo for a while...

peace and gnight!
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 04:43 AM
oh by the way, before I have my dindin-- I found this article interesting about who is looting Iraq.. that is unless Times in partner with CNN has also made it to your biased list? the exculpations are becoming patently obvious at this point?... guess we are not all the brain washable oafs you were hoping we were? pls feel free to tell me how this too is propaganda but what you peddle is the truth?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...463062,00.html

Grounding Planes the Wrong Way
Sunday, Jul. 06, 2003 By SIMON ROBINSON/BAGHDAD Article
Much has been written about how Iraqis complicated the task of rebuilding their country by looting it after Saddam Hussein's regime fell. In the case of the international airport outside Baghdad, however, the theft and vandalism were conducted largely by victorious American troops, according to U.S. officials, Iraqi Airways staff members and other airport workers. The troops, they say, stole duty-free items, needlessly shot up the airport and trashed five serviceable Boeing airplanes. "I don't want to detract from all the great work that's going into getting the airport running again," says Lieut. John Welsh, the Army civil-affairs officer charged with bringing the airport back into operation. "But you've got to ask, If this could have been avoided, did we shoot ourselves in the foot here?"


What was then called Saddam International Airport fell to soldiers of the 3rd Infantry Division on April 3. For the next two weeks, airport workers say, soldiers sleeping in the airport's main terminal helped themselves to items in the duty-free shop, including alcohol, cassettes, perfume, cigarettes and expensive watches. Welsh, who arrived in Iraq in late April, was so alarmed by the thievery that he rounded up a group of Iraqi airport employees to help him clean out the shop and its storage area. He locked everything in two containers and turned them over to the shop's owner.

"The man had tears in his eyes when I showed him what we had saved," says Welsh. "He thought he'd lost everything."

Coalition soldiers also vandalized the airport, American sources say. A boardroom table that Welsh and Iraqi civil-aviation authority officials sat around in early May was, a week later, a pile of glass and splintered wood. Terminal windows were smashed, and almost every door in the building was broken, says Welsh. A TIME photographer who flew out of the airport on April 12 saw wrecked furniture and English-language graffiti throughout the airport office building as well as a sign warning that soldiers caught vandalizing or looting would be court-martialed. "There was no chance this was done by Iraqis" before the airport fell, says a senior Pentagon official. "The airport was secure when this was done." Iraqi airport staff concede that some of the damage was inflicted by Iraqi exiles attached to the Army, but these Iraqis too were under American control.

The airplanes suffered the greatest damage. Of the 10 Iraqi Airways jets on the tarmac when the airport fell, a U.S. inspection in early May found that five were serviceable: three 727s, a 747 and a 737. Over the next few weeks, U.S. soldiers looking for comfortable seats and souvenirs ripped out many of the planes' fittings, slashed seats, damaged cockpit equipment and popped out every windshield. "It's unlikely any of the planes will fly again," says Welsh, a reservist who works for the aviation firm Pratt & Whitney as a quality-control liaison officer to Boeing.

U.S. estimates of the cost of the damage and theft begin at a few million dollars and go as high as $100 million. Airport workers say even now air conditioners and other equipment are regularly stolen. "Soldiers do this stuff all the time, everywhere. It's warfare," says a U.S. military official. "But the conflict was over when this was done. These are just bored soldiers." Says Welsh: "If we're here to rebuild the country, then anything we break we have to fix. We need to train these guys to go from shoot-it-up to securing infrastructure. Otherwise we're just making more work for ourselves. And we have to pay for it."
Reply

Science101
08-25-2007, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't see how? I stand by the article I have posted earlier, which wasn't to your liking-- wasn't main stream enough for you I am supposing?..
As I pointed out, it was obviously biased and "opinion".

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't think you have ran a scientific poll with P values, cohorts, and relative risks and proper assessment to make such a statement with this much conviction?..
I don't have to. Iraqis are polled by people who know how to do it. And from watching the results it's obvious that the poll takers are being truthful.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
compounded only by the fact, that you don't know much of Islam, you haven't lived in an Islamic region and I'll go out on a limb and say the closest you have come to an 'islamic society' if such exists, is well-- this very forum?
Shortly after 9/11 I debated with a very vocal Sunni from Cleveland who lived in Iraq but moved to the states years earlier. They are the one that talked about Shia not following the tennants of Islam. I also studied Islam on the internet. Read some of the Koran. Never lived in Islamic society but I understand it better than the average US citizen.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
feel free to tell me of your travels and attritions that have led you to such a levelheaded conclusion?
As it turned out, the Sunni population did what I recommended, things went like I predicted. What the Sunni I debated said would happen, did not happen. Why would I have better insticts about conflicts than someone you assume would know more about their society? Could it be that this has happened before in history making almost everything predictable?


Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Indeed such a society did exist under the Islamic empires.. you can browse the forum or pick up any curricular history book to corroborate that!
True. But none alive in Iraq today ever had one.


[QUOTE=PurestAmbrosia;816841]I am not sure why you have concluded that?...

A "true Muslim" is whatever you want it to be. To the Sunni from Cleveland, that was a Sunni Muslim, and none else.


Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I think 'Al Qaeda' is something this nit of a president made up to cement his illegal occupations ( he isn't the first moron to have led to the demise of millions) like the handy osama tapes he readily dispenses when his ratings are low..
Al Qaeda was made up? Dang, that alien smiley looks good right now but out of respect I will just use the roll eyes. :rollseyes

Believe me, Al Qaeda is very real. So were the bombings they took credit for over the last couple of decades. And their declaration of war against the USA.
Reply

Science101
08-25-2007, 04:59 AM
And if you must try to make it look like it's the fault of the US that Iraqis did not follow sharia law and trashed their own country, at least be respectful enough to highlight the entire sentence so it's obvious that the only thing in question is the airport. And other armies would have shot all the workers, and worse. Will not make excuses for stealing candy bars and grounding planes for good, but I like to be fair, not jump to conclusions

In the case of the international airport outside Baghdad, however, the theft and vandalism were conducted largely by victorious American troops, according to U.S. officials, Iraqi Airways staff members and other airport workers.
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 05:02 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
As I pointed out, it was obviously biased and "opinion".
wow how biblical are your words! let me show some sedateness...

I don't have to. Iraqis are polled by people who know how to do it. And from watching the results it's obvious that the poll takers are being truthful.
Yes I can produce other polls including those by zoghbi that will kick your polls A$$-- how laughable is this...
Shortly after 9/11 I debated with a very vocal Sunni from Cleveland who lived in Iraq but moved to the states years earlier. They are the one that talked about Shia not following the tennants of Islam. I also studied Islam on the internet. Read some of the Koran. Never lived in Islamic society but I understand it better than the average US citizen.
What am I to infer from this? 90% of Muslims are sunnis.. I think with some research it is easy to see who is following the doctrine and who is following quackery.. is a religion invented by the colonial British troops 200 yrs ago while occupying India Islam? the 'Ahamdis' consider themselves Muslim, but in fact it was a 'religion' made up by England to justify their occupations-- all you really need to do to dispel myth is study and reflect a little instead of boasting how well read you are and then coming up empty-- hopefully then you can write an opinion of substance?

As it turned out, the Sunni population did what I recommended, things went like I predicted. What the Sunni I debated said would happen, did not happen. Why would I have better insticts about conflicts than someone you assume would know more about their society? Could it be that this has happened before in history making almost everything predictable?
that sentence in its integrality is completely nonsensical...



True. But none alive in Iraq today ever had one.
had what?


A "true Muslim" is whatever you want it to be. To the Sunni from Cleveland, that was a Sunni Muslim, and none else.
he is correct.. Allah is with the majority and 90% of Muslims are sunnis.. I don't want to get into matters of jurisprudence, or exegesis with you.. when some very basic facts are still a mystery to you.. best we leave it as such until you've read in sections that have nothing to do with socio-economic, or geo-political conditions, that is one aspect of Islam but not the only aspect of Islam.. some common grounds should be established before we get lost in semantics..


Al Qaeda was made up? Dang, that alien smiley looks good right now but out of respect I will just use the roll eyes. :rollseyes
this one +o( looks good to me..

Believe me, Al Qaeda is very real. So were the bombings they took credit for over the last couple of decades. And their declaration of war against the USA.
I am pretty sure they are 'very real'... to whom they belong and work, is a whole seperate issue... from the fully equipped caves of Afghanistan-- we bring you the Alqaida-mobile, the Alqiada bats, the Al Qaida worriers ready to aim and shoot as the polls of moneky man dip-- ;D ;D
gnight, I am really tired and starting to be grouchy!
if you don't mind-- want to start a seperate thread do what you propose on world affair then do so, I'd like to keep this thread for its purpose-- for Muslims to sign a poll...
Peace!
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 05:05 AM
Originally Posted by Science101
And if you must try to make it look like it's the fault of the US that Iraqis did not follow sharia law and trashed their own country, at least be respectful enough to highlight the entire sentence so it's obvious that the only thing in question is the airport. And other armies would have shot all the workers, and worse. Will not make excuses for stealing candy bars and grounding planes for good, but I like to be fair, not jump to conclusions

In the case of the international airport outside Baghdad, however, the theft and vandalism were conducted largely by victorious American troops, according to U.S. officials, Iraqi Airways staff members and other airport workers.
Actually it isn't the only thing they have vandalized or stolen-- it is the tip of the ice berg ( or what they are willing to admit to).. they have completely stolen the Baghdad Musuem out of its treasures and others, forget about them ever resurfacing (art theft) is the worst in my opinion.. since Babylonian treasures are priceless-- I am just in a hurry to do a full research into my cache..

Again and hopefully for the last time
gnight!
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 07:13 AM
Tomgram: Chalmers Johnson on Robbing the Cradle of Civilization

A good read in its own right!

Another successful landmark has been reached in our occupation of Iraq: The World Monuments Fund has just placed the country on its list of the Earth's 100 most endangered sites. ("Widespread looting, military occupation, artillery fire, vandalism, and other acts of violence are devastating Iraq, long considered the cradle of human civilization.") This is the first time that the Fund has ever put a whole nation on its list and so represents a singular accomplishment for the Bush administration, which knew not -- and cared less -- what it wrought.

The destruction began as Baghdad fell. Words disappeared instantly. They simply blinked off the screen of Iraqi history, many of them forever. First, there was the looting of the National Museum. That took care of some of the earliest words on clay, including, possibly, cuneiform tablets with missing parts of the epic of Gilgamesh. Soon after, the great libraries and archives of the capital went up in flames and books, letters, government documents, ancient Korans, religious manuscripts, stretching back centuries -- all those things not pressed into clay, or etched on stone, or engraved on metal, just words on that most precious and perishable of all commonplaces, paper -- vanished forever. What we're talking about, of course, is the flesh of history. And it was no less a victim of the American invasion -- of the Bush administration's lack of attention to, its lack of any sense of the value of what Iraq held (other than oil) -- than the Iraqi people. All of this has been, in that grim phrase created by the Pentagon, "collateral damage."

Worse yet, the looting of antiquity, words and objects, not only never ended but seems to have accelerated. From well organized gangs of grave robbers to American engineers building bases to American soldiers taking souvenirs, the ancient inheritance not just of Iraqis but of all of us has simply headed south. According to Reuters, more than 1,000 Iraqi objects of antiquity have been confiscated at American airports; priceless cylinder seals are evidently selling on-line at eBay for a few hundred dollars apiece; and this represents just the tiniest fraction of what's gone. The process is not only unending, but in the chaos that is America's Iraq beyond counting or assessing accurately.

Though less attended to than the human costs of the war (which, in turn, have been poorly attended to), such crimes against history are no small matter, as Chalmers Johnson indicates below. Johnson, who produced Blowback, a now classic account of how we got to September 11, 2001 (though published well before those attacks occurred), and a singular study of American militarism, The Sorrows of Empire, is now working on the third volume of his Blowback Trilogy, Nemesis: The Crisis of the American Republic. The piece that follows offers an early glimpse into that book (not due to be published until late 2006). Tom


The Smash of Civilizations
By Chalmers Johnson

In the months before he ordered the invasion of Iraq, George Bush and his senior officials spoke of preserving Iraq's "patrimony" for the Iraqi people. At a time when talking about Iraqi oil was taboo, what he meant by patrimony was exactly that -- Iraqi oil. In their "joint statement on Iraq's future" of April 8, 2003, George Bush and Tony Blair declared, "We reaffirm our commitment to protect Iraq's natural resources, as the patrimony of the people of Iraq, which should be used only for their benefit."[1] In this they were true to their word. Among the few places American soldiers actually did guard during and in the wake of their invasion were oil fields and the Oil Ministry in Baghdad. But the real Iraqi patrimony, that invaluable human inheritance of thousands of years, was another matter. At a time when American pundits were warning of a future "clash of civilizations," our occupation forces were letting perhaps the greatest of all human patrimonies be looted and smashed.

There have been many dispiriting sights on TV since George Bush launched his ill-starred war on Iraq -- the pictures from Abu Ghraib, Fallujah laid waste, American soldiers kicking down the doors of private homes and pointing assault rifles at women and children. But few have reverberated historically like the looting of Baghdad's museum -- or been forgotten more quickly in this country.

Teaching the Iraqis about the Untidiness of History

In archaeological circles, Iraq is known as "the cradle of civilization," with a record of culture going back more than 7,000 years. William R. Polk, the founder of the Center for Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Chicago, says, "It was there, in what the Greeks called Mesopotamia, that life as we know it today began: there people first began to speculate on philosophy and religion, developed concepts of international trade, made ideas of beauty into tangible forms, and, above all developed the skill of writing."[2] No other places in the Bible except for Israel have more history and prophecy associated with them than Babylonia, Shinar (Sumer), and Mesopotamia -- different names for the territory that the British around the time of World War I began to call "Iraq," using the old Arab term for the lands of the former Turkish enclave of Mesopotamia (in Greek: "between the [Tigris and Eurphrates] rivers").[3] Most of the early books of Genesis are set in Iraq (see, for instance, Genesis 10:10, 11:31; also Daniel 1-4; II Kings 24).

The best-known of the civilizations that make up Iraq's cultural heritage are the Sumerians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Parthians, Sassanids, and Muslims. On April 10, 2003, in a television address, President Bush acknowledged that the Iraqi people are "the heirs of a great civilization that contributes to all humanity."[4.] Only two days later, under the complacent eyes of the U.S. Army, the Iraqis would begin to lose that heritage in a swirl of looting and burning.

In September 2004, in one of the few self-critical reports to come out of Donald Rumsfeld's Department of Defense, the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication wrote: "The larger goals of U.S. strategy depend on separating the vast majority of non-violent Muslims from the radical-militant Islamist-Jihadists. But American efforts have not only failed in this respect: they may also have achieved the opposite of what they intended."[5] Nowhere was this failure more apparent than in the indifference -- even the glee -- shown by Rumsfeld and his generals toward the looting on April 11 and 12, 2003, of the National Museum in Baghdad and the burning on April 14, 2003, of the National Library and Archives as well as the Library of Korans at the Ministry of Religious Endowments. These events were, according to Paul Zimansky, a Boston University archaeologist, "the greatest cultural disaster of the last 500 years." Eleanor Robson of All Souls College, Oxford, said, "You'd have to go back centuries, to the Mongol invasion of Baghdad in 1258, to find looting on this scale."[6] Yet Secretary Rumsfeld compared the looting to the aftermath of a soccer game and shrugged it off with the comment that "Freedom's untidy. . . . Free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes."[7]

The Baghdad archaeological museum has long been regarded as perhaps the richest of all such institutions in the Middle East. It is difficult to say with precision what was lost there in those catastrophic April days in 2003 because up-to-date inventories of its holdings, many never even described in archaeological journals, were also destroyed by the looters or were incomplete thanks to conditions in Baghdad after the Gulf War of 1991. One of the best records, however partial, of its holdings is the catalog of items the museum lent in 1988 to an exhibition held in Japan's ancient capital of Nara entitled Silk Road Civilizations. But, as one museum official said to John Burns of the New York Times after the looting, "All gone, all gone. All gone in two days."[8]

A single, beautifully illustrated, indispensable book edited by Milbry Park and Angela M.H. Schuster, The Looting of the Iraq Museum, Baghdad: The Lost Legacy of Ancient Mesopotamia (New York: Harry N. Abrams, 2005), represents the heartbreaking attempt of over a dozen archaeological specialists on ancient Iraq to specify what was in the museum before the catastrophe, where those objects had been excavated, and the condition of those few thousand items that have been recovered. The editors and authors have dedicated a portion of the royalties from this book to the Iraqi State Board of Antiquities and Heritage.

At a conference on art crimes held in London a year after the disaster, the British Museum's John Curtis reported that at least half of the forty most important stolen objects had not been retrieved and that of some 15,000 items looted from the museum's showcases and storerooms about 8,000 had yet to be traced. Its entire collection of 5,800 cylinder seals and clay tablets, many containing cuneiform writing and other inscriptions some of which go back to the earliest discoveries of writing itself, was stolen.[9] Since then, as a result of an amnesty for looters, about 4,000 of the artifacts have been recovered in Iraq, and over a thousand have been confiscated in the United States.[10] Curtis noted that random checks of Western soldiers leaving Iraq had led to the discovery of several in illegal possession of ancient objects. Customs agents in the U.S. then found more. Officials in Jordan have impounded about 2,000 pieces smuggled in from Iraq; in France, 500 pieces; in Italy, 300; in Syria, 300; and in Switzerland, 250. Lesser numbers have been seized in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Turkey. None of these objects has as yet been sent back to Baghdad.

The 616 pieces that form the famous collection of "Nimrud gold," excavated by the Iraqis in the late 1980s from the tombs of the Assyrian queens at Nimrud, a few miles southeast of Mosul, were saved, but only because the museum had secretly moved them to the subterranean vaults of the Central Bank of Iraq at the time of the first Gulf War. By the time the Americans got around to protecting the bank in 2003, its building was a burnt-out shell filled with twisted metal beams from the collapse of the roof and all nine floors under it. Nonetheless, the underground compartments and their contents survived undamaged. On July 3, 2003, a small portion of the Nimrud holdings was put on display for a few hours, allowing a handful of Iraqi officials to see them for the first time since 1990.[11]

The torching of books and manuscripts in the Library of Korans and the National Library was in itself a historical disaster of the first order. Most of the Ottoman imperial documents and the old royal archives concerning the creation of Iraq were reduced to ashes. According to Humberto Márquez, the Venezuelan writer and author of Historia Universal de La Destrucción de Los Libros (2004), about a million books and ten million documents were destroyed by the fires of April 14, 2003.[12] Robert Fisk, the veteran Middle East correspondent of the Independent of London, was in Baghdad the day of the fires. He rushed to the offices of the U.S. Marines' Civil Affairs Bureau and gave the officer on duty precise map locations for the two archives and their names in Arabic and English, and pointed out that the smoke could be seen from three miles away. The officer shouted to a colleague, "This guy says some biblical library is on fire," but the Americans did nothing to try to put out the flames.[13]

The Burger King of Ur

Given the black market value of ancient art objects, U.S. military leaders had been warned that the looting of all thirteen national museums throughout the country would be a particularly grave danger in the days after they captured Baghdad and took control of Iraq. In the chaos that followed the Gulf War of 1991, vandals had stolen about 4,000 objects from nine different regional museums. In monetary terms, the illegal trade in antiquities is the third most lucrative form of international trade globally, exceeded only by drug smuggling and arms sales.[14] Given the richness of Iraq's past, there are also over 10,000 significant archaeological sites scattered across the country, only some 1,500 of which have been studied. Following the Gulf War, a number of them were illegally excavated and their artifacts sold to unscrupulous international collectors in Western countries and Japan. All this was known to American commanders.

In January 2003, on the eve of the invasion of Iraq, an American delegation of scholars, museum directors, art collectors, and antiquities dealers met with officials at the Pentagon to discuss the forthcoming invasion. They specifically warned that Baghdad's National Museum was the single most important site in the country. McGuire Gibson of the University of Chicago's Oriental Institute said, "I thought I was given assurances that sites and museums would be protected."[15] Gibson went back to the Pentagon twice to discuss the dangers, and he and his colleagues sent several e-mail reminders to military officers in the weeks before the war began. However, a more ominous indicator of things to come was reported in the April 14, 2003, London Guardian: Rich American collectors with connections to the White House were busy "persuading the Pentagon to relax legislation that protects Iraq's heritage by prevention of sales abroad." On January 24, 2003, some sixty New York-based collectors and dealers organized themselves into a new group called the American Council for Cultural Policy and met with Bush administration and Pentagon officials to argue that a post-Saddam Iraq should have relaxed antiquities laws.[16] Opening up private trade in Iraqi artifacts, they suggested, would offer such items better security than they could receive in Iraq.

The main international legal safeguard for historically and humanistically important institutions and sites is the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict, signed on May 14, 1954. The U.S. is not a party to that convention, primarily because, during the Cold War, it feared that the treaty might restrict its freedom to engage in nuclear war; but during the 1991 Gulf War the elder Bush's administration accepted the convention's rules and abided by a "no-fire target list" of places where valuable cultural items were known to exist.[17] UNESCO and other guardians of cultural artifacts expected the younger Bush's administration to follow the same procedures in the 2003 war.

Moreover, on March 26, 2003, the Pentagon's Office of Reconstruction and Humanitarian Assistance (ORHA), headed by Lt. Gen. (ret.) Jay Garner -- the civil authority the U.S. had set up for the moment hostilities ceased -- sent to all senior U.S. commanders a list of sixteen institutions that "merit securing as soon as possible to prevent further damage, destruction, and/or pilferage of records and assets." The five-page memo dispatched two weeks before the fall of Baghdad also said, "Coalition forces must secure these facilities in order to prevent looting and the resulting irreparable loss of cultural treasures" and that "looters should be arrested/detained." First on Gen. Garner's list of places to protect was the Iraqi Central Bank, which is now a ruin; second was the Museum of Antiquities. Sixteenth was the Oil Ministry, the only place that U.S. forces occupying Baghdad actually defended. Martin Sullivan, chair of the President's Advisory Committee on Cultural Property for the previous eight years, and Gary Vikan, director of the Walters Art Museum in Baltimore and a member of the committee, both resigned to protest the failure of CENTCOM to obey orders. Sullivan said it was "inexcusable" that the museum should not have had the same priority as the Oil Ministry.[18]

As we now know, the American forces made no effort to prevent the looting of the great cultural institutions of Iraq, its soldiers simply watching vandals enter and torch the buildings. Said Arjomand, an editor of the journal Studies on Persianate Societies and a professor of sociology at the State University of New York at Stony Brook, wrote, "Our troops, who have been proudly guarding the Oil Ministry, where no window is broken, deliberately condoned these horrendous events."[19] American commanders claim that, to the contrary, they were too busy fighting and had too few troops to protect the museum and libraries. However, this seems to be an unlikely explanation. During the battle for Baghdad, the U.S. military was perfectly willing to dispatch some 2,000 troops to secure northern Iraq's oilfields, and their record on antiquities did not improve when the fighting subsided. At the 6,000-year-old Sumerian city of Ur with its massive ziggurat, or stepped temple-tower (built in the period 2112 - 2095 B.C. and restored by Nebuchadnezzar II in the sixth century B.C.), the Marines spray-painted their motto, "Semper Fi" (semper fidelis, always faithful) onto its walls.[20] The military then made the monument "off limits" to everyone in order to disguise the desecration that had occurred there, including the looting by U.S. soldiers of clay bricks used in the construction of the ancient buildings.

Until April 2003, the area around Ur, in the environs of Nasiriyah, was remote and sacrosanct. However, the U.S. military chose the land immediately adjacent to the ziggurat to build its huge Tallil Air Base with two runways measuring 12,000 and 9,700 feet respectively and four satellite camps. In the process, military engineers moved more than 9,500 truckloads of dirt in order to build 350,000 square feet of hangars and other facilities for aircraft and Predator unmanned drones. They completely ruined the area, the literal heartland of human civilization, for any further archaeological research or future tourism. On October 24, 2003, according to the Global Security Organization, the Army and Air Force built its own modern ziggurat. It "opened its second Burger King at Tallil. The new facility, co-located with [a] . . . Pizza Hut, provides another Burger King restaurant so that more service men and women serving in Iraq can, if only for a moment, forget about the task at hand in the desert and get a whiff of that familiar scent that takes them back home."[21]

The great British archaeologist, Sir Max Mallowan (husband of Agatha Christie), who pioneered the excavations at Ur, Nineveh, and Nimrud, quotes some classical advice that the Americans might have been wise to heed: "There was danger in disturbing ancient monuments. . . . It was both wise and historically important to reverence the legacies of ancient times. Ur was a city infested with ghosts of the past and it was prudent to appease them."[22]

The American record elsewhere in Iraq is no better. At Babylon, American and Polish forces built a military depot, despite objections from archaeologists. John Curtis, the British Museum's authority on Iraq's many archaeological sites, reported on a visit in December 2004 that he saw "cracks and gaps where somebody had tried to gouge out the decorated bricks forming the famous dragons of the Ishtar Gate" and a "2,600-year-old brick pavement crushed by military vehicles."[23] Other observers say that the dust stirred up by U.S. helicopters has sandblasted the fragile brick façade of the palace of Nebuchadnezzar II, king of Babylon from 605 to 562 B.C.[24] The archaeologist Zainab Bahrani reports, "Between May and August 2004, the wall of the Temple of Nabu and the roof of the Temple of Ninmah, both of the sixth century B.C., collapsed as a result of the movement of helicopters. Nearby, heavy machines and vehicles stand parked on the remains of a Greek theater from the era of Alexander of Macedon [Alexander the Great]."[25]

And none of this even begins to deal with the massive, ongoing looting of historical sites across Iraq by freelance grave and antiquities robbers, preparing to stock the living rooms of western collectors. The unceasing chaos and lack of security brought to Iraq in the wake of our invasion have meant that a future peaceful Iraq may hardly have a patrimony to display. It is no small accomplishment of the Bush administration to have plunged the cradle of the human past into the same sort of chaos and lack of security as the Iraqi present. If amnesia is bliss, then the fate of Iraq's antiquities represents a kind of modern paradise.

President Bush's supporters have talked endlessly about his global war on terrorism as a "clash of civilizations." But the civilization we are in the process of destroying in Iraq is part of our own heritage. It is also part of the world's patrimony. Before our invasion of Afghanistan, we condemned the Taliban for their dynamiting of the monumental third century A.D. Buddhist statues at Bamiyan in March, 2001. Those were two gigantic statues of remarkable historical value and the barbarism involved in their destruction blazed in headlines and horrified commentaries in our country. Today, our own government is guilty of far greater crimes when it comes to the destruction of a whole universe of antiquity, and few here, when they consider Iraqi attitudes toward the American occupation, even take that into consideration. But what we do not care to remember, others may recall all too well.

NOTES

[1.] American Embassy, London, " Visit of President Bush to Northern Ireland, April 7-8, 2003."

[2.] William R. Polk, "Introduction," Milbry Polk and Angela M. H. Schuster, eds., The Looting of the Iraq Museum: The Lost Legacy of Ancient Mesopotamia (New York: Harry N. Abrams, 2005), p. 5. Also see Suzanne Muchnic, "Spotlight on Iraq's Plundered Past," Los Angeles Times, June 20, 2005.

[3.] David Fromkin, A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (New York: Owl Books, 1989, 2001), p. 450.

[4.] George Bush's address to the Iraqi people, broadcast on "Towards Freedom TV," April 10, 2003.

[5.] Office of the Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics, Report of the Defense Science Board Task Force on Strategic Communication (Washington, D.C.: September 2004), pp. 39-40.

[6.] See Frank Rich, "And Now: 'Operation Iraqi Looting,'" New York Times, April 27, 2003.

[7.] Robert Scheer, "It's U.S. Policy that's 'Untidy,'" Los Angeles Times, April 15, 2003; reprinted in Books in Flames, Tomdispatch, April 15, 2003.

[8.] John F. Burns, "Pillagers Strip Iraqi Museum of Its Treasures," New York Times, April 13, 2003; Piotr Michalowski (University of Michigan), The Ransacking of the Baghdad Museum is a Disgrace, History News Network, April 14, 2003.

[9.] Polk and Schuster, op. cit, pp. 209-210.

[10.] Mark Wilkinson, Looting of Ancient Sites Threatens Iraqi Heritage, Reuters, June 29, 2005.

[11.] Polk and Schuster, op. cit., pp. 23, 212-13; Louise Jury, "At Least 8,000 Treasures Looted from Iraq Museum Still Untraced," Independent, May 24, 2005; Stephen Fidler, "'The Looters Knew What They Wanted. It Looks Like Vandalism, but Organized Crime May be Behind It,'" Financial Times, May 23, 2003; Rod Liddle, The Day of the Jackals, Spectator, April 19, 2003.

[12.] Humberto Márquez, Iraq Invasion the 'Biggest Cultural Disaster Since 1258,' Antiwar.com, February 16, 2005.

[13.] Robert Fisk, "Library Books, Letters, and Priceless Documents are Set Ablaze in Final Chapter of the Sacking of Baghdad," Independent, April 15, 2003.

[14.] Polk and Schuster, op. cit., p. 10.

[15.] Guy Gugliotta, "Pentagon Was Told of Risk to Museums; U.S. Urged to Save Iraq's Historic Artifacts," Washington Post, April 14, 2003; McGuire Gibson, "Cultural Tragedy In Iraq: A Report On the Looting of Museums, Archives, and Sites," International Foundation for Art Research.

[16.] Rod Liddle, op. cit..; Oliver Burkeman, Ancient Archive Lost in Baghdad Blaze, Guardian, April 15, 2003.

[17.] See James A. R. Nafziger, Art Loss in Iraq: Protection of Cultural Heritage in Time of War and Its Aftermath, International Foundation for Art Research.

[18.] Paul Martin, Ed Vulliamy, and Gaby Hinsliff, U.S. Army was Told to Protect Looted Museum, Observer, April 20, 2003; Frank Rich, op. cit.; Paul Martin, "Troops Were Told to Guard Treasures," Washington Times, April 20, 2003.

[19.] Said Arjomand, Under the Eyes of U.S. Forces and This Happened?, History News Network, April 14, 2003.

[20.] Ed Vulliamy, Troops 'Vandalize' Ancient City of Ur, Observer, May 18, 2003; Paul Johnson, Art: A New History (New York: HarperCollins, 2003), pp. 18, 35; Polk and Schuster, op. cit., p. 99, fig. 25.

[21.] Tallil Air Base, GlobalSecurity.org.

[22.] Max Mallowan, Mallowan's Memoirs (London: Collins, 1977), p. 61.

[23.] Rory McCarthy and Maev Kennedy, Babylon Wrecked by War, Guardian, January 15, 2005.

[24.] Owen Bowcott, Archaeologists Fight to Save Iraqi Sites, Guardian, June 20, 2005.

[25.] Zainab Bahrani, "The Fall of Babylon," in Polk and Schuster, op. cit., p. 214.

This essay is extracted from Chalmers Johnson's Nemesis: The Crisis of the American Republic, forthcoming from Metropolitan Books in late 2006, the final volume in the Blowback Trilogy. The first two volumes are Blowback: The Costs and Consequences of American Empire (2000) and The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic (2004).


Copyright 2005 Chalmers Johnson
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 07:20 AM
and another
Looting and Conquest
Zainab Bahrani








The looting of Baghdad's museums has generally been represented as an accident of ignorance or poor planning. Not enough attention has been paid to the fact that for several months before the start of the Iraq war, scholars of the ancient history of Iraq repeatedly spoke to various arms of the US government about this risk. Individual archeologists as well as representatives of the Archaeological Institute of America met with members of the State Department, the Defense Department and the Pentagon. We provided comprehensive lists of archeological sites and museums throughout Iraq, including their map coordinates. We put up a website providing this same information. All of us said the top priority was the immediate placement of security guards at all museums and archeological sites. US government officials claimed that they were gravely concerned about the protection of cultural heritage, yet they chose not to follow our advice.

The Iraq Museum in Baghdad was one of the three or four most important archeological museums in the world, a treasure house of objects included in every standard art history text book, housing the earliest narrative reliefs and the oldest written works in world history. As has now been well documented, by April 12 the entire museum had been looted. The looters used professional glass-cutting tools, cranes and trucks over a period of forty-eight hours, as a US tank stood idly outside. At one point a few soldiers strolled into the museum, watched for a while and then left.

The looting of this unparalleled museum was not an isolated incident or a casualty of the chaos of war. Before this raid, a group of looters emptied museums in Basra and Mosul while coalition troops looked on. Even after the museum lootings had sparked an international outcry, Iraq's libraries and galleries were allowed to be plundered and burnt

US troops not only neglected to protect historical sites and cultural property; they abused such sites themselves. US forces bombed Baghdad's thirteenth-century University building, one of the oldest universities in the world. US troops transformed the ancient site of Ur into a military base, even digging trenches into the ground. US tanks rolled through the ancient streets of Babylon, an act that had no military value but to declare conquest.

The destruction of cultural heritage during war can fall into the category of collateral damage, but looting that takes place under the supervision of an occupying force is another matter. The 1954 Hague Convention establishes that it is the responsibility of the occupying power to protect the cultural patrimony of the occupied land. While the United States never ratified that convention, the Defense Department promised to abide by the Hague Convention in several responses to the scholarly community. A March 18 letter to this effect to the Society for American Archaeology is posted at www.saa.org. In any case, the United States is a signatory to the Geneva Convention, which makes clear that the protection of museums, as of hospitals, is the responsibility of the occupying force. The United States clearly violated this convention. While the Oil Ministry was, and remains, well guarded, at the time of an emergency meeting about the looting, on April 17 at UNESCO in Paris, no military guard had yet been posted at the museum. The museum's director of research, Donny George, who had been asked to attend the UNESCO meeting, declined the invitation, explaining that he had to stay in Baghdad to guard what was left of the collections.

Blame must be placed with the Bush Administration for a catastrophic destruction of culture unparalleled in modern history. Thousands of cuneiform tablets and ancient Christian, Muslim and Jewish manuscripts are gone. Most of the country's works of art have disappeared. Much of the nation's cultural heritage has been lost. Donald Rumsfeld's response to this devastation? "Freedom's untidy. And free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes."

And who stands to benefit from this plunder? The illicit trade in antiquities, which funnels works from countries such as Egypt, Greece and Italy to collectors based in New York, London and Geneva. Collector William Pearlstein, of the American Council for Cultural Policy (ACCP), an organization that met with the White House and the Pentagon right before the war and right after the looting, is appealing for the cultural theft to continue by other means, calling Iraq's antiquities-preservation laws "retentionist," and saying he "hoped that Iraq would grant more excavation permits and consider export permits for redundant objects." Everyone from professional organizations to religious fanatics is now laying claim to Iraq's past, some pretending to speak for the Iraq Museum or the Department of Antiquities. This opportunism opens the door to more cultural and historical plunder, a base scramble much like the parceling off of sites and antiquities that occurred in the nineteenth century.

At this point, the US authority in Iraq has yet to allow an international team of experts to assess damage to archeological sites, monuments and museums. By the time help can go in, some structures--such as the 2,000-year-old Great Arch of Ctesiphon, which has suffered for years due to the banning of monument-preservation materials under the embargo--may very well collapse. Perhaps private interests such as the ACCP will be allowed in first. All of these decisions have been designated a US project. US archeologists, art historians and historians must take a stance against this. They must insist on the international cooperation of world academics, with involvement based on expertise. Decisions about excavation permits and the organization of cultural property should not depend upon the whims of the occupying force. Ultimately, such decisions must be left to the Iraqi Department of Antiquities and Heritage, as only Iraqis can have the right to decide how to proceed.

Even in antiquity, and by the Babylonians and Assyrians themselves, the destruction of cultural property was understood as an act of psychological warfare. Historical annals from ancient Mesopotamia describe how the identity and power of a people is directly linked to its cultural monuments. Recent empires--the Habsburgs, the British and the French--all appropriated the cultural heritage of colonized lands, but at least they safeguarded it in museums and promoted its study. The destruction that the US military has allowed to occur in Iraq has no parallel.


so how about the U.S gets out and you get off that self-righteous high horse?
peace!
Reply

Science101
08-25-2007, 07:21 AM
I can see you're not done throwing mud at the US for what some ruthless Iraqis did to their own country, but since I already had a few years of debating the war, I'm happy to just let this topic go. I said what I felt needed to be said to balance out the opening post. And I hope you feel that you adequately presented your side.

Only thing I have to say is that no matter what you think of the Shia they are a majority in Iraq, and almost all of Iran is Shia. They are human beings that do not deserve to be downed because you feel your religion is better than theirs. And they do not deserve to be left for the wolves that want to impose another brutal Islamic dictatorship on them, after almost achieving lasting peace in a country where all can participate in government in an otherwise war torn country.

And anyone who wants to see what ultimately happened to a country that sent suicide bombers out to kill thousands of our people, can take a look at what happened to Japan after the US put an end to that barbarism.




http://www.photopassjapan.com/

Enough said...
Reply

جوري
08-25-2007, 07:31 AM
More blah blah blah?.. I believe the sourced articles speak volumes.. I don't want to make a forum antagonist out of you, I am just not that interested.. my purpose is always to educate the Muslims that is if they don't already know of such things and just make them pro active.. I don't enjoy dragging baggage on me or dead weight or engaging in a prolix with the likes of wilbur!.. I hope you reassess why you are arguing here? I am not going to suddenly see things your way.. I don't think those more discerning on board will either...but pls get your facts stright for your own good.. If you are going to argue against Islam, better do it with like minds... You'll only abase yourself when it comes to debating a Muslim...
BTW what is your point about Shiias predminating Iraq? is that an invitation for you to go loot them? and how does it change Islam in the scheme of things? Still Sunnis make up 90% of Muslims.. what is going on in Iraq is beyond religion... it is about humanity and civilization that this adminstration bankrupted and looted in the name of Bull and f'reedom fries'...
My only consolation is more Americans than ever are getting off their TV and learning the truth about their president and their phony media
peace!
Reply

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