Have you talked to any Mormons.

[Ghira]

Should we have dialogues with Mormons that drop by your house. I had like a 15 min talk with 2 Mormons about Islam. I did most of the talking and I gave him a Qur'an and he gave me a the book of Mormons. I gave him a good speech so should we have talks with them or should we avoid them.

[Abdul Fattah]

Why would you avoid people that want to talk about religion with you? It's perfect opportunity for dawah. Sure, they have the same goal, but if you know your religion you should survive inshaAllah

[ranma1/2]

Should we have dialogues with Mormons that drop by your house. I had like a 15 min talk with 2 Mormons about Islam. I did most of the talking and I gave him a Qur'an and he gave me a the book of Mormons. I gave him a good speech so should we have talks with them or should we avoid them.

i have occasionally, they tend to get nervous and i think i cause them to question their beliefs so i dont mind it. I usually do the talking though.

[Isambard]

Only chatted with 2-3 in my life. They seem very jittery around me thou and seemed more interested in dropping a pamphlet and leaving rather than leaving.

It may be because I look like a crazy hobo IRL, but in my mind I tell myself they were just busy :D

*cries softly in corner*

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[Ghira]

I did not know there were atheists in this forum...interesting. Well, I just wanted to here people's thoughts and experiences with Mormons. Is it just a waste of time or good way of dawah.

[snakelegs]

there are agnostics here too.
mormons are the missionaries who come to the door the most and are the most aggressive. i seriously doubt that you would find them receptive - to either atheist or muslim dawah.
personally, i see little point in engaging them. i just say what i say to other salesmen: "no thankyou, i am not interested" and shut the door.

[islamic]

we must talk with mormons, 7 days adventist, with Yahowa wit. and with ALL other christians sects! WE MUST, we can't avoid them!
Search on youtube for a conversation of Ahmed Deedat with Mormons. Try to search like this: deedat+mormons

[Woodrow]

Keep in mind that you can not use biblical refutations whe talking with Mormons. they believe the "Book of Mormon" came and revealed the truth and corrected the errors of the Bible.

the difficulty with trying to give Da'wah to Mormons is there is very little about Islam they do not believe. Their belief is sort of like Islam, but with additional qualifications added and that the "Book of Mormon" is the fianal revelation.

If you do not have a very good understanding of both Islam and Mormonism, a debate can be very futile and a waste of your time.

[north_malaysian]

I never met a Mormon and none of them ever come to my home ... as it's illegal to preach other religions to Muslims in this country.

But there are lots of Tablighis knocking on the door (if you didnt shut your gates)

[Isambard]

I did not know there were atheists in this forum...interesting. Well, I just wanted to here people's thoughts and experiences with Mormons. Is it just a waste of time or good way of dawah.

Yeah, whenever you leave crumbs on the floor one of us appears. Just remember, where there's one there's a colony

(Ah geez my queen will be mad for spilling the beans!)

[zarhad]

I find mormons very close minded , they smile and nodd alot but your right very jittery (i find when you mention islam). some of them are very persistant, they were hading out there books on the edge of an islamic schools property to all the students i had a nice little talk with them, trying to explain the depth of a muslims iman and that we could not be swaid because it is not just or beliefs and our faith but it is our life and way of living...they tryed to tell me all this non sence...yes nonsence if i want to go to heaven and stuff of course i know the truth...anyways getting off topic
basiclly i run into them alot as well as johova witnesses they drive me insane, im polite but its difficult because i find a majorty of them pushie and dont know much in the way of religion

[Pygoscelis]

I used to find mormon door-to-door salesmen of salvation to be annoying. But now I find them amusing. I talk to them as often as I can. If you get beyond the basic save-your-soul stuff and get to specifics they have some VERY .. um.. interesting ideas.

I collect their propaganda too, including a five page pamphlet explaining how a teenage boy should tie his hands up at night so he doesn't um.. sin.. while he is half-asleep. I kid you not. A young lad actually spent fifteen minutes explaining this to me when he gave me the pamplet.

[zarhad]

LOL...yah really, if i want them to stop comming to my house i should probily just envite them in for coffee make them fee extremly uncomfortible ( in a polite way of course) and ask them a series of random and meaning less questions and then start preaching islam ( i really love my beliefs) but also because they always squirm when i do that

[IbnAbdulHakim]

LOOL! I thot the thread title was

"have you talked to any morons?" :X


OT: no i havent :)

[Ebtisweetsam]

:-\ In Aust we dont have mormons (or at least i dont think we do?:hmm: ) but we do get Jehova's witness. The problem is they come in big groups and stand on the door for AGES so u gotta be sure u got the time to discuss religion with em.
They havent come around for the last few years. I heard they get paid commission or get kicked out if they dont get enough people in their religion.... something like that.

[Keltoi]

Mormonism's "home base" so to speak is Utah. I do know a few Mormons, but my conversations with them have had very little to do with religion.

[islamic]

If you do not have a very good understanding of both Islam and Mormonism, a debate can be very futile and a waste of your time.

You can speak about their prophets, John Smith, about unlimited number of wifes they can marry, and sure you can read their "Mormon Book" and talk about that Book.
As I think, if you don't know much about their prophets and their book, you can present them Islam and make them say THIS IS GOOD for many things in Islam :smile:

[rachamim]

I do not wish to talk to any person knocking on my door uninvited to discuss religion, or specifially me leaving my religion for theirs. I find it highly offencive, to say nothing of the paticual Mornom beliefs I abhor.

Religion should always come from the heart, not from having another human shove it down your throat.

[amille40]

I grew up with a Mormon friend from elementary school up until I graduated high school. I must say from what I've observed of their youth they seem chronically unhappy with their lives. I don't mean to generalize this over everyone, but its what Ive observed through my own experience.

I also recently read a history of their "prophet", and it turns out he spent the first half of his life working as a pseudo-religious con artist.

[Ghira]

Mormons are not as pushy as Jehovah witness in my experience with both of them. Jehovah witness would always come and give me stupid pamplets and make me read verses of their Bible. Mormons I met would say a sentence and think that will do the trick. I made it clear yes I can explain my religion to you and you can explain yours as an understanding of religions. My religion, Islam is the most misunderstood religion so I hope to enlighten you about my religion. I told them we are here to get to know one another and not spread lies about our religions.

[Grace Seeker]

we must talk with mormons, 7 days adventist, with Yahowa wit. and with ALL other christians sects! WE MUST, we can't avoid them!
Search on youtube for a conversation of Ahmed Deedat with Mormons. Try to search like this: deedat+mormons

Just a side note to this discussion. While non-Christians may think of groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian sects, most Christians who practice historic Christianity (as expressed in creeds such as the Apostles' or Nicene creeds) would think of them as not being Christian.

[ranma1/2]

Just a side note to this discussion. While non-Christians may think of groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian sects, most Christians who practice historic Christianity (as expressed in creeds such as the Apostles' or Nicene creeds) would think of them as not being Christian.

isnt that along the lines of a true scotsmans argument.

They themselves see themselves as christian.

Just as a protestant, catholic , or a episcaplian

[islamic]

Just a side note to this discussion. While non-Christians may think of groups such as Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as Christian sects, most Christians who practice historic Christianity (as expressed in creeds such as the Apostles' or Nicene creeds) would think of them as not being Christian.

right right right :) I can agree with this also. :D

[Grace Seeker]

isnt that along the lines of a true scotsmans argument.

They themselves see themselves as christian.

Just as a protestant, catholic , or a episcaplian

I don't know. Is it?
I'm part Scottish, but I don't say that other people are not Scottish because they are part Irish, English, or even German. Though maybe someone who is 100% Scottish would. I'm not really sure how that is relevant either?

In this case, Mormons will tell you that I am not a Christian, that I am an apostate Christian because I do not practice the Mormon version of Christianity. And Jehovah's Witness will tell you that they are the only true worshippers of God in the world.

On the other hand even Catholic Christians, who think that they are the only true and legitimate Christian Church, will admit that a Lutheran or a Presbyterian or an Orthodox or a Coptic believer are Christians as well. And Presbyterians and Lutherans will agree with regard to Catholics and Orthodox or Coptic Christians. And so on. But neither Mormons nor Jehovah's Witness will recognize any other group but themselves. So, just remember, if you seek to agree with Mormons that they are Christians, to remain in agreement with them you would have to say that all of the rest of us are not.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I've only met Mormon people once - they were a couple, and once they found out I was an atheist they were very keen to have me round to dinner. I didn't go. Perhaps I should have done - it might have been entertaining.

They call their religion 'LDS' - short for 'Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints', and in the past they objected to being called 'Mormons', although they've capitulated in the face of the unstoppable and now accept it as a designation.

They have some AMAZING beliefs, and many will apparently happily admit that their theology is nutty.

For instance: the Book of Mormon was revealed to Joseph Smith (in a rather fantastic manner that I won't go into now - you can find out about it by doing some research if you're interested) in a language unknown to humans. He was given divinely sanctioned assistance to translate it into English, which he did. Here's the weird thing:

Huge passages of the text are identical to the King James Bible. In fact, they are so identical that they even include the translators' errors from that Bible.

Does that sound divine to you?

Peace

[Amadeus85]

What the Bible says about Jesus vs. what Mormonism says about Jesus:

The Bible
• He is the virgin-born Son of God, conceived by the Holy Ghost (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:18; Luke 1:34-35).

Mormonism
• Jesus "was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pp. 547, 742).
• "When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten Him in His own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family (Adam)" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. I, p. 50).
• Christ had a "unique status in the flesh as the offspring of a mortal mother and of an immortal or resurrected and glorified Father (Adam)" (James Talmage, Articles of Faith, p. 473).

The Bible
• Satan is a created - and fallen - angel (Isaiah 14:12).

Mormonism
• "Lucifer - this spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Savior of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter of the First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15).

The Bible
• Jesus did not marry.

Mormonism
• "Jesus was the bridegroom at the marriage of Cana - We say it was Jesus Christ who was married, to be brought into relation whereby he could see his seed" (Orson Hyde, apostle, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 82).

The Bible
• Jesus is the foundation of the true church (Matthew 16:18; Acts 4:11-12; Colossians 1:18).

Mormonism
• Joseph Smith: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 408-9).

The Bible
• Jesus is the judge of all (John 5:22).

Mormonism
• "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith … Every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289).

The Bible
• Jesus is the one who resurrects all (John 5:28-29).

Mormonism
• Joseph Smith will receive the keys of the resurrection. "If we ask who will stand at the head of the resurrection in this last dispensation, the answer is - Joseph Smith, Junior, the Prophet of God. He is the man who will be resurrected and receive the keys of the resurrection, and he will seal this authority upon others, and they will hunt up their friends and resurrect them" (Brigham Young, Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 116).

The Bible
• Jesus is the eternal Son of God, the Creator, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and Holy Spirit (John 1:1-14; Colossians 1:15-20; Philippians 2:5-11; Hebrews 1:1-13).

Mormonism
• A "council of the Gods" created the world. "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it … In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 308, 474).
The Bible
• The Holy Spirit is the third Person of the triune Godhead (Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19-20).

Mormonism
• Joseph Smith taught that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit "constitute three distinct personages and three Gods" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).

The Bible
• The Holy Spirit is co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son (Acts 5:1-11).

Mormonism
• The Father has a body of flesh and bones. So does the Son. But the Holy Ghost is "a personage of spirit" (Doctrines and Covenants 130:22).

The Bible
• The Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are two Biblical names for the same person.

Mormonism
• "The Holy Ghost … is a personage distinct from the Holy Spirit. As a personage, the Holy Ghost cannot any more than the Father and the Son be everywhere present in person" (John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 76).

The Bible
• The Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost is God (Acts 5:3-4).

Mormonism
• "The Holy Ghost is yet a spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body as the Saviour did or as the gods before them took bodies" (Joseph Smith, April 6, 1843; see Discourses on the Holy Ghost compiled by N.B. Lundwall, p. 73).

What the Bible says about the Gospel of Jesus Christ vs. what Mormonism says about the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

The Bible
• Christ’s death at Calvary paid our sin debt and purchased our salvation so that everlasting life is received by grace through faith in the Person and work of Jesus (John 3:16, 5:24; Romans 4:4-5; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

Mormonism
• Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection made it possible for mankind to be resurrected, but "men will be punished for their own sins" (Article of Faith #2 by Joseph Smith). Through the atonement of Christ "all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel" (Article of Faith #3 by Joseph Smith).
• "There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 670).
• "Baptism … is for the remission of sins … (and) is the gate to the celestial kingdom of heaven" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 70).
• There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith … No man can eject that testimony without accepting most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).

The Bible
• The Bible teaches that at death, man’s eternal destiny is fixed in one of two places: heaven or hell (Luke 16:19-31).

Mormonism
• Virtually all men are saved in "General Salvation … meaning resurrection" (Contributions of Joseph Smith by Stephen L. Richards, p. 5).
• Then, based on works, all men will spend eternity in one of three levels of heaven - telestial, terrestrial or celestial. A few "sons of perdition" will not be saved/resurrected.

The Bible
• All men are sinners by nature and by volition (Romans 3:23, 5:12; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22).

Mormonism
• There is no such thing as original sin. All men are gods in embryo. "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Apostle John Widtsoe, Rational Theology, p. 61).The Bible

http://www.christianpost.com/article...on_Beliefs.htm

[Pk_#2]

• There is no such thing as original sin.

Hmm, okay

All men are gods in embryo. "God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement" (Apostle John Widtsoe, Rational Theology, p. 61).The Bible

Hmm, *rolls eyes*

[Nabooly]

Honestly i find their beliefs ridiculous. I studied a bunch of religions in my sociology class a couple of years ago...

[chosen]

dont be afraid of the mormons..they have warped christianity into some foreign religion...but they are the most polite people you will ever meet in your life....now those jehova wittnesses on the other hand..just turn off the light and pretend your not home...and this is comming from a christian..

[Keltoi]

Yes, the beliefs of Mormons seem very strange to me, but on a personal level I've never met a Mormon I didn't like.

[snakelegs]

dont be afraid of the mormons..they have warped christianity into some foreign religion...but they are the most polite people you will ever meet in your life....now those jehova wittnesses on the other hand..just turn off the light and pretend your not home...and this is comming from a christian..

all you have to do when a missionary comes to the door (of whatever sect) is say "i am not interested" and close the door. i've done it all my life. no need to hide, no need to argue.
btw, in my experience mormons are the most agressive of all.

[Dawud_uk]

Should we have dialogues with Mormons that drop by your house. I had like a 15 min talk with 2 Mormons about Islam. I did most of the talking and I gave him a Qur'an and he gave me a the book of Mormons. I gave him a good speech so should we have talks with them or should we avoid them.

assalaamu alaykum,

we should give dawah to everyone, no matter whom. if bush came and asked me about islam i would tell him to the best of my ability.

they also believe the bible to be corrupted, incorrect in places so hence the need for their book of mormon but in other matters they are misguided like other chrisitans.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

[Al-Zaara]

all you have to do when a missionary comes to the door (of whatever sect) is say "i am not interested" and close the door. i've done it all my life. no need to hide, no need to argue.
btw, in my experience mormons are the most agressive of all.

Exactly. Or (for Muslims) do like my father does, go get the Qur'an, have your Islamic clothing fast on and open the door with a smile "Yes? I'm sorry I'm late to open the door - I was just reading the best book in the world, subhanAllah, it's called Qur'an. You should read it."

They usually go all :uuh: and my Dad politely says I'm not interested. :okay:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

assalaamu alaykum,

we should give dawah to everyone, no matter whom. if bush came and asked me about islam i would tell him to the best of my ability.

they also believe the bible to be corrupted, incorrect in places so hence the need for their book of mormon but in other matters they are misguided like other chrisitans.

assalaamu alaykum,
Abu Abdullah

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah

lets say a man approaches us in a mocking provocative manner, then asks us to describe this book from "God" as a jest, should we still answer him in a beautiful manner or leave him be?!

[cihad]

nobody ever comes to my door *sad* , its probably coz of the maximum security-don't dare enter gate.

But I have seen mormons before, when I was playing badminton-they seemed okay -didn't do anything strange, but the one little kid was smiling at me like theres no tomorrow.


I heard something once from my friend(christian catholic) she said that mormons wear a one peice long white underwear..but i totally don't know if this is true or not???//

[Woodrow]

nobody ever comes to my door *sad* , its probably coz of the maximum security-don't dare enter gate.

But I have seen mormons before, when I was playing badminton-they seemed okay -didn't do anything strange, but the one little kid was smiling at me like theres no tomorrow.


I heard something once from my friend(christian catholic) she said that mormons wear a one peice long white underwear..but i totally don't know if this is true or not???//

That is true. I remember Donnie and Marie Osmond talking about it on TV once. They are probably the most famous Mormons in Show Business.


there is more about Mormon undergarments here.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/t...underwear.html

[Grace Seeker]

nobody ever comes to my door *sad* , its probably coz of the maximum security-don't dare enter gate.

Cihad, remind me to speak to the warden about allowing you more visitors. :D

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I did not know about the Mormon undergarments. How bizarre. The way the article was written, at first I assumed each person had just one that they wore at all times for the rest of their life, and hygiene issues were flooding into mind, but I assume they change them. :p

Peace

[mayza]

as for mormons, no, but I've had times when I've met some jehovah witnesses and recieced some pamphlets (watchtower, ot whatever)... to me, they seem like MLM salesman.... very pushy and annoying....

[Dawud_uk]

Assalamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullaah

lets say a man approaches us in a mocking provocative manner, then asks us to describe this book from "God" as a jest, should we still answer him in a beautiful manner or leave him be?!

a quick example from the dawah stall this last saturday...

i had an ex bnp member (who had left them as they dont go far enough) telling me all sorts of stuff, looking like he couldnt decide if he wanted to listen to what i was saying or clock me one, saying all sorts of nasty stuff but still i talked to him, calmed him down and he stopped swearing, to agree that christianity is also from the east so christianity is no more valid for the english than islam and to say he would come back again another day.

[ranma1/2]

Should we have dialogues with Mormons that drop by your house. I had like a 15 min talk with 2 Mormons about Islam. I did most of the talking and I gave him a Qur'an and he gave me a the book of Mormons. I gave him a good speech so should we have talks with them or should we avoid them.

well i have them show up once a month or so. So far none can speak english, once in hiroshima i ran across one that spoke english and i had a nice converstaion with him.
Unfortunatly we werent able to talk to much.

Im personally all for calling them or any other door to door group on their product.

[جوري]

That is true. I remember Donnie and Marie Osmond talking about it on TV once. They are probably the most famous Mormons in Show Business.


there is more about Mormon undergarments here.

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/t...underwear.html

whaaaaaaaaaaaa, Donny and marie osmon are mormons? ah man that explains so much...I was starting to think they must be undergoing some sort of weekly treatment...
one thing I notice all Mormons have in common is that peculiar smile

but now that you have explained about the Undergarment, it is all making better sense...

Jazaka Allah khyran

:w:

[zoro]

No: Mormon missionaries don’t smile because of their special underwear. Instead, they exude happiness because they think that they’re making progress toward their goals. Unfortunately, they’ve been indoctrinated (ever since they were small children) into adopting many unscientific, anti-humanistic goals in life, one of which is to “go on a mission”.

The Mormon Church (or more completely, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) conducts a complex and extensive indoctrination program. Some of its ingredients are the following.

• They’re taught that their “holy books” are “true” – without being told that the concept of “truth” is appropriate only for closed systems (such as games and pure math), while in reality (an open system), “truth” can be approached only asymptotically and only by applications of the scientific method.

• They’re taught to have “faith” in what they “know in their hearts is true”; that is, they’re taught to embrace the “proof-by-pleasure” logical fallacy.

• They’re taught that they’re “good” if they’ll just “believe” – even in the absence of evidence; that is, they’re taught to reject the fundamental principle adopted by scientific humanists that beliefs should be held only as strongly as relevant evidence warrants.

• They’re taught that if they obey their parents and their clerics, then they’ll live forever in “paradisiacal glory” – and if they don’t, then they’ll be tortured for eternity; that is, they’re taught the anti-human concept that the most basic moral principle is “obey” rather than “evaluate”.

• They’re taught that their purposes in life are to follow the teachings contained in their “holy books” and proclaimed by their “living prophet” (i.e., the head of the Mormon Church), to fulfill the obligations of their “Doctrine and Covenants” (of course including paying tithes), to enter into the “eternal covenant of marriage” (preferably in the Salt Lake City Temple), to have as many children as a wife’s health will permit, to similarly indoctrinate their children in “LDS Ludicrousness”, and to go on “missions” to spread their religion throughout the world, so that everyone in the world will become a “good Mormon”.

If you desire more information about Mormonism, you might want to start by looking at the four chapters that I devote to the topic (all with the words “LDS Ludicrousness” in the title) in Part 3x of my online book at www.zenofzero.net , which includes many references to other online sources.

As for comments dealing with the wisdom about talking to Mormons: if you want to learn about their religion, then do so. But if you don’t, if instead, you’d like to try show them their errors, then my experience recommends that you don’t waste your time. Unless you’re vastly more convincing than I am, then you might as well try to talk a suicide bomber out of his or her mission. Both groups are happily heading down a one-way street, at the entrance to which there’s a big sign, proudly proclaiming: “No Thinking Allowed!” As Thomas Gray said: “Where ignorance is bliss, ‘tis folly to be wise.”

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Aren't most of the points mentioned by zoro above true, to a greater or lesser extent, of all monotheistic religions?

Peace

[Grace Seeker]

Greetings,

Aren't most of the points mentioned by zoro above true, to a greater or lesser extent, of all monotheistic religions?

Peace

Actually, no, I don't think so. Though some of them are commonly thought of as the teachings of Christianity, most of that is folk religion and not genuine Christianity. I suspect you would find Islam and Judaism responding similarly.

[Thanaa]

Heh heh. I got stopped by an American woman in the middle of Yeovil (somerset, uk), a few months ago.
My friends just blurted out, sorry were pagan (even though theyre not, lol!), and ran, leaving me with this woman who was insisting that she wanted to "give me a message from Jesus".:offended:
I tried to get away, by saying "uhm, Ill come talk to you later, okay..!?" but to no avail. I ended up having a card with Jesus on the front being forced on me...
I still have it somewhere, I think.
On the back were the words and address of a Church of Latter Day Saints (mormon) contact group. Needless to say, they never got a call from me.
See, my friends told the woman they were pagan and legged it, because that generally more effective (its been tried and tested!!) than trying to say "no". Or maybe the Mormons in somerset are more persistant than anywhere else.
Because I appeared to already believe in Jesus, and was polite (i.e. I didnt run away), the woman latched onto me.
If you get stuck in the street with one, dont talk, just run, like Sophie and Liz H! :D
I could have shot them for leaving me!
Meh. Mind you, Yeovils got weirdos of all kinds in it; druggies, alcoholics, and a weird cult-like group called "The Plymouth Brethren". My mate Liz B (yes, 2 Elizabeths; we had to find a naming system) says they wont talk to anyone who isnt one of them. Theyre weird weird people.
And then, theres the flipping Jehovahs and the Mormons. *sigh*
So, yes, I have met a Mormon; I tend to attract them to me. :uuh:

[Keltoi]

On a related topic, the presidential candidate for the U.S. presidency, Mitt Romney, gave a fairly good speech last Thursday. It was a good reminder that there should be no religious test for office.

[Nabooly]

On a related topic, the presidential candidate for the U.S. presidency, Mitt Romney, gave a fairly good speech last Thursday. It was a good reminder that there should be no religious test for office.

Meh, speeches say nothing about the candidate. In the first or second yourube debate on cnn, he was HORRIBLE! He has no comebacks or anything when anyone attacked him. It was kinda weird to be honest... :muddlehea

But yeah we shouldnt judge on religoin for a president ;)

[wilberhum]

We shouldn't judge anyone based on religion.

Each and every religion has good and evil people in them.

[zoro]

Keltoi: I disagree with your comment:

On a related topic, the presidential candidate for the U.S. presidency, Mitt Romney, gave a fairly good speech last Thursday. It was a good reminder that there should be no religious test for office.

First, I disagree with your assessment of Romney’s speech: I would describe it not as “fairly good” but “absolutely horrible.”

For the possible benefit of others, I’ll start with some background. In my view, the Republican candidate for president Mitt Romney (former governor of Massachusetts and a Mormon) felt it necessary to give the speech (the text of which is available at, e.g., http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g...HhQWAD8TC2LFO0 ) because he was slipping in the Iowa polls relative to Mike Huckabee (a former governor of Arkansas and Baptist pastor). Therefore, Romney’s political strategy was to give a nationally advertised and televised speech to “defend” his “religious credentials”, under attack by many evangelical Christians, better described as the “Christian Reich.”

Now, look at some of the details in his speech. Early in it, setting its tone, Romney proposed:

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

Really? “Freedom requires religion”? “Religion” meaning in some way to “commune with God”? Because I’ve found no evidence to support the existence of an invisible friend in the sky that Romney calls “God”, then I can’t be free? Romney has an invisible friend in the sky who requires that HE be obeyed, and yet, I’m the one who isn’t free? And exactly what shade of black is Romney’s white?

Then there’s Romney’s: “religion requires freedom.” Really? Aren’t the Iranians, Pakistanis, Saudis, and so on, religious? Are they “free”? Isn’t Romney religious? Is he “free”? Really? Free to think outside his indoctrination? Can he even think for himself?

And look again at: “Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God.” How does Romney “discover” his “beliefs”: by evaluating evidence or by “listening to his heart” – or similar to Bush, by responding to what “his gut” tells him? That’s how Bush got us into the Iraq war; it’s called the “Proof by Pleasure Fallacy”. Rather than “commune with God”, how about communing with relevant data?

And then there’s Romney’s: “Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.” Really? What evidence supports such as stupid statement? How about if his claim was at least stated more clearly: “Freedom and the science of savages called ‘religion’ endure together, or perish alone”? Is Romney a candidate for President of the United States or President of his Church? Did his bachelor’s degree in arts, his master’s in business administration, and his law degree really provide him with appropriate preparation to convey to the American public his scientific model of the universe?

Later in his speech, Romney had special condemnation for “secularists”:

… in recent years, the notion of the separation of church and state has been taken by some well beyond its original meaning. They seek to remove from the public domain any acknowledgment of God. Religion is seen as merely a private affair with no place in public life. It’s as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They are wrong.

Look again at Romney’s “the religion of secularism.” I have no doubt that it’s meant to be an insult, but what is its meaning? Secularism means separation of Church and State – and in case Romney doesn’t know, it’s a concept contained in our Constitution.

But if by ‘religion’ is meant “ideas to cling to” or “ideas that hold a group together”, and if Romney meant by ‘secularism’ something similar to “scientific humanism”, then I would agree that there is a “religion of secularism.” It means something similar to: reject the science concocted by savages (i.e., “the God idea”) and replace it with the best ideas that the scientific method has been able to generate ever since the science of savages was found to be stupid. As Mangasarian said: “Religion is the science of children; science is the religion of adults.” From which it follows that Romney has the mental development of a child.

And as if to confirm that idea, Romney added:

We should acknowledge the Creator as did the Founders in ceremony and word. He should remain on our currency, in our pledge, in the teaching of our history, and during the holiday season, nativity scenes and menorahs should be welcome in our public places. Our greatness would not long endure without judges who respect the foundation of faith upon which our constitution rests. I will take care to separate the affairs of government from any religion, but I will not separate us from “the God who gave us liberty… Americans acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God, not an indulgence of government.”

What nonsense! No god gave Americans liberty. I am an American and I do not “acknowledge that liberty is a gift of God.” What liberty we have was paid for by the blood and limbs and lives of those who fought the tyrants who would impose their stupid ideas on us – such as their stupid religious ideas – and just as Romney and Muslim terrorists seek to do.

In sum, Romney’s ideas are more closely allied to those of the Dark Ages than were those of the founders of this country, not only Paine and Jefferson and Madison, but even John Adams, whom Romney quotes:

In John Adam’s words: “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion… Our Constitution,” he said, “was made for a moral and religious people.”

What Romney neglected to mention (amazingly convenient for him) was that the quotation from Adams was contained in a letter that he wrote to army officers (the full letter is available at http://personal.pitnet.net/primaryso...msmilitia.html ) and that the concepts in the letter are wholly consistent with Adams’ application of Seneca the Younger’s principle:

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful.

Thus, although what Romney quoted shows that President Adams considered religion to be “useful” (especially for manipulating the troops), other quotations from Adams shows that he considered religion to be “false”. Some examples of Adams’ assessment follow (copied from http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm ):

The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public?

The priesthood have, in all ancient nations, nearly monopolized learning... And, even since the Reformation, when or where has existed a Protestant or dissenting sect who would tolerate A FREE INQUIRY? The blackest billingsgate, the most ungentlemanly insolence, the most yahooish brutality is patiently endured, countenanced, propagated, and applauded. But touch a solemn truth in collision with a dogma of a sect, though capable of the clearest proof, and you will soon find you have disturbed a nest, and the hornets will swarm about your legs and hands, and fly into your face and eyes.

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

The quandary that Adams found himself in, derived from his application of Seneca’s principle, was described well by Cliff Walker, who created “Positive Atheism’s Bill List of Quotations” (from which the above Adams’ quotations were taken). Walker wrote:

Oft-Misquoted Adams Quip

What you see in a great many atheistic quotes lists:
“This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it!!!”
– John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson.

What Adams was saying, in its actual context:

“Twenty times in the course of my late reading have I been on the point of breaking out, ‘This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!!!’ But in this exclamation I would have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without religion this world would be something not fit to be mentioned in polite company, I mean hell.” – John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed., Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254

John Adams is here describing to Thomas Jefferson what he sees as an emotion-based ejaculatory thought that keeps coming to him. This was not his reasoned opinion. Although John Adams often felt an urge to advocate atheism as a popular worldview (because of the sheer abuses perpetrated by religious charlatans), he was of the firm and reasoned opinion (basically undisputed in his day) that religion is essential to the goal of keeping the masses in line.

Knowing what we know today, to say this is pure slander against atheists. And yet it is still quite popular, especially among the uneducated, the widespread acknowledgement of its falsehood notwithstanding.

Thus, Adams was not above presenting such travesties as his National Day of Prayer and Fasting proclamation. These acts reflected his view that the masses needed religion to keep this world from becoming a bedlam. However, Adams, like Washington and Jefferson, did not apply this reasoning to himself – as we can plainly see from the quotations in the main section: religion was good for the masses but not for John Adams (for the most part), who was above all that and needed no piety in order to maintain his own sense of civility.

Meanwhile and in contrast, it’s not clear to me if Romney’s statement, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God and the savior of mankind”, means that he regards such nonsense as “true” or as just “useful”. But even giving Romney the benefit of the doubt that he’s smart enough to manipulate the masses, I’d bet that he “truly believes” that he has an invisible friend with him who wants him to take up residence at the White House – rather than a nut house!

Consequently, Keltoi, I also disagree with your: “It [Romney’s speech] was a good reminder that there should be no religious test for office.” Of course I agree that there should be no religious test for office, but I would maintain that anyone who claims to have an invisible friend in the sky with him is unfit for any political office.

And wilberhum, although I rarely disagree with you, I don’t think that your comment is sufficiently penetrating. You stated

We shouldn't judge anyone based on religion. Each and every religion has good and evil people in them.

I recall the great comment by Nobel laureate Steven Weinberg:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Yet, I think that Weinberg’s assessment should be generalized – to something of the form:

With or without some ideology driving them, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes some crazy ideology, such as Nazism, Communism, or any of the Abrahamic religions, including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism.

[Keltoi]

In response to Zoro's fairly long dialogue,

I probably shouldn't have brought that up in the context of comparative religion, as this is way off topic.

Just a short response though, as an athiest I'm sure you didn't find Romney's speech to be worthwhile. That doesn't surprise me, but you are also bordering on hypocrisy and what I like to call "secular fascism"....sort of like your "Christian Reich" label. Whether you like it or not, the majority of Americans are people of faith, and the leaders they choose will also be people of faith. That is democracy in action. If you want an athiest government move to China.

[zoro]

Keltoi:

As I've explained in other posts in this forum, I'm not an atheist. If you need to use labels, then I'd prefer "scientific humanist." Are you, then, the negative of that? An "unscientific antihuman"?

As for your invitation for me to move: thanks anyway, but I plan to stay -- and I'll continue to try to get all unscientific antihumans to smarten up. If you want to move, however, feel free.

[Keltoi]

Keltoi:

As I've explained in other posts in this forum, I'm not an atheist. If you need to use labels, then I'd prefer "scientific humanist." Are you, then, the negative of that? An "unscientific antihuman"?

As for your invitation for me to move: thanks anyway, but I plan to stay -- and I'll continue to try to get all unscientific antihumans to smarten up. If you want to move, however, feel free.

No, I'm a Christian, and proud to call myself one.

Anyway, this is completely off topic and should be left alone.

[barney]

I had a chat with two once.

Very much a "Kissing Hanks A55" scenario where they left with threats of hellfire.

I find mormonism very comedic. If i ever get a little low, i just open up the book of Mormon, and after a few "Verily it came to pass, exceedingly"'s i'm laughing like a drain.

[Ghira]

I think you should judge a presidential candidate based on religion look at the religious nut George W. Bush...He thinks he is in war right now because God told him to go to war....hmmm...He is very religious and many horrible things happened during his hypocritical democracy.

[Grace Seeker]

I think you should judge a presidential candidate based on religion look at the religious nut George W. Bush...He thinks he is in war right now because God told him to go to war....hmmm...He is very religious and many horrible things happened during his hypocritical democracy.

I think you misread Bush's reasoning for going to war. And I think you have played connect the dots without paying attention to the order they need to be connected in so that you have created a picture of something different than reality.


Bush is indeed a very religious person. That doesn't mean that it was his belief in God that led him to war. I have never heard him say in any speech or written report that he believes this to be a holy war of any sort -- at least not from the persepctive of the US. The closest is his belief that others are engaged in a what they see as a holy jihad to destroy the American way of life. (I happen to disagree with his evaluation of that also. But that is a far cry from what you accuse him of.)

The reasoning that Bush has given is for everyone to read -- fear of terrorism spreading around the globe, a desire to fight it where it is coming from than on American soil, a belief that the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden in Afghanistan and that Hussein had and was willing to use WMDs in Iraq -- those were the stated reasonings for the wars the USA is involved in. Now, few believe him with regard to the WMDs. And you might wish to call him a outright liar in fabricating that excuse. But I do not think he is a hypocrite, for I think he still sincerly believes that the threat is real and that he is therefore doing the right thing to protect the USA from those who would attack it. Again, I don't agree with his assessment of the situation, but it has nothing to do with his belief in God, and it hardly makes him a hypocrite.


With regard to your point that you think one should look at a presidential candidates' religious views, I actually agree with you. I just think you used a poor illustration as to why.

[Ebtisweetsam]

Bush is indeed a very religious person. That doesn't mean that it was his belief in God that led him to war. I have never heard him say in any speech or written report that he believes this to be a holy war of any sort -- at least not from the persepctive of the US. The closest is his belief that others are engaged in a what they see as a holy jihad to destroy the American way of life. (I happen to disagree with his evaluation of that also. But that is a far cry from what you accuse him of.)

The reasoning that Bush has given is for everyone to read -- fear of terrorism spreading around the globe, a desire to fight it where it is coming from than on American soil, a belief that the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden in Afghanistan and that Hussein had and was willing to use WMDs in Iraq -- those were the stated reasonings for the wars the USA is involved in. Now, few believe him with regard to the WMDs. And you might wish to call him a outright liar in fabricating that excuse. But I do not think he is a hypocrite, for I think he still sincerly believes that the threat is real and that he is therefore doing the right thing to protect the USA from those who would attack it. Again, I don't agree with his assessment of the situation, but it has nothing to do with his belief in God, and it hardly makes him a hypocrite.


With regard to your point that you think one should look at a presidential candidates' religious views, I actually agree with you. I just think you used a poor illustration as to why.

Grace Seeker, no-one with even a minute's amount of brains in them would honestly think this war was about anything but religion..... Every Muslim country that does not stand by Bush, gets the 'they are the terrorists' country' one day or another. Sheesh! Like that needs to be debated about! :muddlehea:muddlehea:muddlehea

[Grace Seeker]

Grace Seeker, no-one with even a minute's amount of brains in them would honestly think this war was about anything but religion..... Every Muslim country that does not stand by Bush, gets the 'they are the terrorists' country' one day or another. Sheesh! Like that needs to be debated about! :muddlehea:muddlehea:muddlehea

Nice to know that the war is no longer about oil. That's what most people have told me it was all about. But know you tell me it is about religion.

Turkey, Moroco, Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan don't get accused of being terrorist countries. Not even Libya has been accused of that during Bush's presidency. But I suppose that you would label them all as standing by Bush. And what of countries like North Korea that get accused of being terrorist countries? Is it because it is Muslim?


But what do I know. After all, I don't have even "a minute's [sic] amount of brains". So, if less than 60 seconds, how many seconds of brains do I have?

[Ghira]

I think you misread Bush's reasoning for going to war. And I think you have played connect the dots without paying attention to the order they need to be connected in so that you have created a picture of something different than reality.


Bush is indeed a very religious person. That doesn't mean that it was his belief in God that led him to war. I have never heard him say in any speech or written report that he believes this to be a holy war of any sort -- at least not from the persepctive of the US. The closest is his belief that others are engaged in a what they see as a holy jihad to destroy the American way of life. (I happen to disagree with his evaluation of that also. But that is a far cry from what you accuse him of.)

The reasoning that Bush has given is for everyone to read -- fear of terrorism spreading around the globe, a desire to fight it where it is coming from than on American soil, a belief that the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden in Afghanistan and that Hussein had and was willing to use WMDs in Iraq -- those were the stated reasonings for the wars the USA is involved in. Now, few believe him with regard to the WMDs. And you might wish to call him a outright liar in fabricating that excuse. But I do not think he is a hypocrite, for I think he still sincerly believes that the threat is real and that he is therefore doing the right thing to protect the USA from those who would attack it. Again, I don't agree with his assessment of the situation, but it has nothing to do with his belief in God, and it hardly makes him a hypocrite.


With regard to your point that you think one should look at a presidential candidates' religious views, I actually agree with you. I just think you used a poor illustration as to why.

Just because you did not read or heard that Bush said that does not mean that it doesn't exist. Did you not read the book written about him?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...075950,00.html

You are just being used for political gains of Neo-cons. Stop listening to the mainstream news and look at broader picture. Stop being scared to death of terrorists when you already have one sitting in the white house. George Galloway the British MP said

"No wolf would commit the sort of crimes against humanity that George Bush committed against the people of Iraq."
And he said,

"Bush, and Blair, and the prime minister of Japan, and Silvio Berlusconi, these people are criminals, and they are responsible for mass murder in the world, for the war, and for the occupation, through their support for Israel, and through their support for a globalised capitalist economic system, which is the biggest killer the world has ever known. It has killed far more people than Adolf Hitler."

These people whom you may see as protectors are in fact War criminals that need to be put to trial.
I really don't care if you are an American or Iraqi or Israeli the killing of innocent people is WRONG and cannot be justified. The Johns Hopkins mortality survey (credible Survey of Major University in the U.S.) say that more than 655,000 Iraqis are dead. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6040054.stm

99 American Soldiers killed themselves last year
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6950158.stm
Why because they feel that they have no strong reason to be in the war.. The war started with pack of lies that you accepted. There is no WMD in Iraq, Sadaam did not support Al-Qieda, Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. You can support the troops by bringing them home from the misery they are in. You accept the ideas of people who create havoc and chaos in the world. Why does your government help your own people, Katrina, if it has such strong urge to help the world. Why not improve health care system that ranks last in western world? Why not improve educational system which ranks second to last amongst developed nations, next to London. (I can give you proof on that as well).

Unfortunately, many people are put in state of fear for the political power of war criminals the same way Hitler used fear to justify his cause.

[Grace Seeker]

The war started with pack of lies that you accepted. There is no WMD in Iraq, Sadaam did not support Al-Qieda, Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism. You can support the troops by bringing them home from the misery they are in. You accept the ideas of people who create havoc and chaos in the world. Why does your government help your own people, Katrina, if it has such strong urge to help the world. Why not improve health care system that ranks last in western world? Why not improve educational system which ranks second to last amongst developed nations, next to London. (I can give you proof on that as well).

Unfortunately, many people are put in state of fear for the political power of war criminals the same way Hitler used fear to justify his cause.

OK. You have crossed the line. You are making statements of which you do not know your facts.

So, Ghira, I want you to know this:

• I did not accept what you call a pack of lies.
• I was one of those who questioned everything that George Bush did.
• I stood up and was counted as a dissident.

So, don't come in here and start saying things like: "The war started with pack of lies that you accepted." You, sir, are now the one who is lying, becaue that is a total fabrication with regard to how I responded to those allegations.

One of the problems with the world is the tendency of people to make over-generalizations and false conclusions. Bush did that with regard to Iraq. And you, sir, have done it with regard to me. Thus I see no difference between you and Bush. Would you lead people to attack me simply because I am a citizen of a country where you disagree with the nation's leaders? If so, then you are condoning the very thing that you claim was wrong when another did it. Whereas, I have constantly stood in opposition to such behavior.

Did you cry "Foul!! This is not Islam!"? Or did you silently applaude when real terrorists took control of airplanes and flew them into buildings, killing thousands of innocents. If you did not protest against such atrocities done in the name of Islam, and thereby defaming both Islam and Allah whose name they called on just before committing their dispicable act, then you are also no true Muslim and certainly not a friend of Allah. For such things are repungnant to true Islam.

You attack me. But you do not even take the time to get to know me. You show your true colors by assuming that I am in agreement with all that has happened, or that I have condoned it and not opposed it. But the person you vilefy me as, I am not. And I haven't just silently opposed the war from the comfort of my living room. I have objected in public protest, in letters to members of congress, and in providing support to suffering Iraqis.

You say that I "accept the ideas of people who create havoc and chaos in the world". I have done no such thing. But just because I oppose Bush's policies does not mean that I will make up or spread lies about him. I will not stoop to such sophmoric behavior, as I believe you have done. No where in anything that you presented, including the book, does it say what you said above, that Bush "thinks he is in war right now because God told him to go to war." You make allegations that you don't, won't, or can't substantiate. What are we to think of your character? Precious little.

You have made accusations agaiinst my character when you don't even know me. You have lied about me and about the things I have and have not supported. You have defamed my intergrity. You have given me no reason to trust your integrity. I am angry because you present yourself as righteous, but you are not. You are exactly what you detest in George Bush, and nothing more.

You, sir, should be ashamed. And I am calling you on it.

[Ghira]

Seems like you are a Bush defender....Grace seeker... He is a hypocrite to many Christian I have spoken to forget about Muslim standards.

The fact he said God "speaks" to him is very relevant. A problem many evangelical Christians have is that they feel they can speak to God directly.

This particular 'revelation' comes after Mr Bush launched an impassioned attack yesterday in Washington on Islamic militants, likening their ideology to that of Communism, and accusing them of seeking to "enslave whole nations" and set up a radical Islamic empire "that spans from Spain to Indonesia". In the program Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, the former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: "I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.' And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,' and I did."

And "now again", Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, "I feel God's words coming to me: 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God, I'm gonna do it."

Mr Abbas remembers how the US President told him he had a "moral and religious obligation" to act. The White House has refused to comment on what it terms a private conversation. But the BBC account is anything but implausible, given how throughout his presidency Mr Bush, a born-again Christian, has never hidden the importance of his faith.

From the outset he has couched the "global war on terror." To me he is causing more terror in the world and that is why global surveys show him the biggest threat to world peace right next to Osama.

[truemuslim]

sorry i aint sure watta mormon is... is it those annoying ppl coming knockin on ur door telling u to go to there church and u gotta tell them no and they give u a paper bout christianity then u close the door on them? just wondering..hehe

[Grace Seeker]

sorry i aint sure watta mormon is... is it those annoying ppl coming knockin on ur door telling u to go to there church and u gotta tell them no and they give u a paper bout christianity then u close the door on them? just wondering..hehe

That could fit several different groups, but they are one of them. Of course, once you read the paper, if you know anything about traditional, historic Christianity, you will see that what they are selling is something that only Mormons would label as Christianity.

[truemuslim]

^^^ oh

[Ebtisweetsam]

Nice to know that the war is no longer about oil. That's what most people have told me it was all about. But know you tell me it is about religion.

Turkey, Moroco, Egypt, Kuwait, Bahrain, Jordan don't get accused of being terrorist countries. Not even Libya has been accused of that during Bush's presidency. But I suppose that you would label them all as standing by Bush. And what of countries like North Korea that get accused of being terrorist countries? Is it because it is Muslim?

Yes I can agree with you about the oil... definite incentive!
But dont worry hun, every country get their turn.....
Turkey is right beside the US, they are not using the Islamic Law.
Egypt jumped the queue (right behind Israel)
Saudi.... following close by.
Believe me the Puppeteer says jump, and the rest ask 'how high'..... or you'll get the heave-ho, ur next on the terrrorists list.

Re: Nth Korea: thats Bush's cover-up to show the world he isnt after Muslims countries.
Tell me now, does Syria have AlQaeda? U probably say they do just like Afghan and Iraq and Iran...

[Keltoi]

Okay, I say this not to be offensive towards Mormons, but here is an example of how the Mormon faith is not Christianity. According to Mormonism, John Smith was given a new holy book by the angel Michael. "The Book of Mormon"..although I believe he called it something else. What is so striking about this is that if one reads the Book of Mormon, one notices that it contains the exact translation errors as found in the King James version of the Bible...with different things added in of course. To me at least, that points to a human source for that book, and not an angelic delivery..unless angels make a habit of delivering altered King James versions of the Bible.