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Michael
08-30-2007, 08:24 AM
I know that the official teaching of Islam is that Allah put someone who looked like Jesus on the Cross and raised Jesus up to heaven alive. This view comes from Surah An-Nisa' 157.

However, for a long time I thought that such a view was inconsistent with God's nature. I had remembered reading a Bible verse that said "A faithful God, without deceit, just and upright is He". However today, I looked up that verse, and found that many Bible translations translate it as 'iniquity' rather than 'deceit'. I don't speak Hebrew, but I can understand some Greek, so I looked up the Septuagint version, and the Greek word ἀδικία means 'unrighteousness, wrong, injury, offence'. This puts a new angle on things, but doesn't it seem wrong for God to deceive people into thinking that Christ was crucified? Isn't God above such fraud?

Also, the Qur'an says in Surah Maryam: "[Jesus] said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!" (Surah Maryam 30-33)

Isn't the Qur'an saying that Jesus said that He would die? This doesn't make sense.
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Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн
08-30-2007, 05:32 PM
Also, the Qur'an says in Surah Maryam: "[Jesus] said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!" (Surah Maryam 30-33)

Isn't the Qur'an saying that Jesus said that He would die? This doesn't make sense.
I think I can answer this one for you. In his(as) second coming, he will live and die like the rest of us. And as for the coming alive again, isn't that talking about the Day of Judgement? We will all be raised alive on that day, with our good and bad deeds.
Reply

6sman
08-30-2007, 08:22 PM
Salamu alaikum,

Firstly my question to you brother is: From where do you come up with all these arguments mate? I don't know your source of knowledge but whatever it might be, make sure its not an anti-islamic. If you sincerely desire to study Islam in the right perspective, always refer to authentic Islamic sources.
In a way its good that people come and raise questions about the religion of Islam, because if they did not, i may never have bothered to read the Qur'an and the try to learn the sunnah of the Prophet[p]. The more people ask questions, the more i study about Islam and discover its truthfulness.

Originally Posted by Michael
I know that the official teaching of Islam is that Allah put someone who looked like Jesus on the Cross and raised Jesus up to heaven alive. This view comes from Surah An-Nisa' 157....but doesn't it seem wrong for God to deceive people into thinking that Christ was crucified? Isn't God above such fraud?
The official teaching of Islam concerning the Crucifixion is NOT that some look-alike, whether it be Judas Iscariot, Jesus Bar-abas(Son of the Father) or Simon of Sirene was killed in place of Jesus[p] on the Cross. This is only a probability and an interpretation, not necessarily what the Qur'an actually states. It is important to differentiate between an interpretation and the actual text of the Qur'an.
Regarding your point, it would prosperous if we read the passage in full;
That they[the Israelites] said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. [Al-Qur'an 4:157-158] It is expedient also that we read the following ayah in context with the above; And [the unbelievers] plotted and planned[To kill Jesus], and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah. [Al-Qur'an 3:54]

Based on this observation, the Israelites plotted to kill Jesus[p]. They intended to kill him for a false charge of blasphemy and crucify him as a false prophet, for it is stated in Deuteronomy 21:23: ...he that is hanged is accursed of God...! GOD here gave them a taste of their own medicine by saving Jesus[p] from the crucifixion and made a fool out of a bunch of fools.

Originally Posted by Michael
Also, the Qur'an says in Surah Maryam: "[Jesus] said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!" (Surah Maryam 30-33) Isn't the Qur'an saying that Jesus said that He would die? This doesn't make sense.
It is true that there is some sort of resurrection in the Qur'an. The following ayah is even clearer;
Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute. [Al-Qur'an 3:55] However, it is un-clear how and when it took place. Some say Jesus[p] never went to the cross and prior to the event was raised up. Some further said that he was put on the cross but was raised from it. While some further claim that he survived the crucifixion[ by definition], died at a later time, was then resurrected and appeared to the disciples. Once again we need to be very careful in interpreting the Qur'anic ayaat, lest we make an error in judgment.

This post may not've entirely answered your two questions but it will surely help provide you with something to ponder, this is my main objective. I believe we all need further studies on the subject and i hope you guys will help make this thread a more informatory and an instructive one.

Salamu alaikum.
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Michael
08-31-2007, 11:39 AM
Thanks for this.
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Imam
08-31-2007, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Michael
I know that the official teaching of Islam is that Allah put someone who looked like Jesus on the Cross and raised Jesus up to heaven alive. This view comes from Surah An-Nisa' 157.

doesn't it seem wrong for God to deceive people into thinking that Christ was crucified? Isn't God above such fraud?

.
Greetings

this point has been discussed here before:

the following from the link

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ing-god-6.html


verse 4:156-159 "That they(The Jews) rejected Faith; That they(The Jews) uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they(The Jews) said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it(The issue of crucificion) was made to appear to them so, and those(The Jews or those alike who accepted,or pretended to accept the hearsay un-verified account) who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power.

the verses mention:

1-The Jews falsely claimed that they killed Jesus The son of Mary (pbuh).

2-The Quran denies that such crucifiction ever happened.

3-The Quran shows that .and in light of the fact that not one Jew(and others too) ever witnessed a crucifiction,so their claim that Jesus was cricified was something fancied to them,why? because it was based on a hearsay account......

4- and that is what the text showed further:

(and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not)
thoses,refers to all those(including Jews or others) who differd regarding the (crucifiction issue) are:

A-full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge eg;Eyewitnesses testimonies.
B-Had only conjecture to follow.

There is nothing strange at all,regarding a false propaganda telling that a famous person has been killed,especially if such person disappeared from the scene (Allah raised him ).



Now let's analyse the other interpretation:

Sale:
[004:157] and have said, verily we have slain Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God; yet they slew him not, neither crucified him, but he was represented by one in his likeness;

Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:
[004:157] And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man),


the above translations seem to be inaccurate:why?

first of all and most important , it is not linguistically, possible

1-if the pronoun(Ha) of the word(Shubbeha) refers to Jesus ,then the verse to be translated as follows:

(but the resemblance of another man was put over Jesus (pbuh) !!!)
the previous verse (And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah (Jesus), son of (Mary), the Messenger of Allah," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him) mentions nothing regarding a man whom his resemblance was put over Jesus (pbuh) ,and nothing about the opposite too....

imam zamakshari in his Quranic Tafseer ,highlighted this issue well.


second: If the resemblance of Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and witnessed all that,
upon what basis they :
differd therein ,were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow ?
If the man was 100% similar to jesus,logically there would be no motive for them to differ and follow conjecture.

one might argue ,that they crucified another person similar ,and heard the disciples saying that he wasn't jesus as jesus is still alive.
we have problems here:

1-That is not Quranic claim.

2-If they got such correction from the disciples part, then we have either:
A-they verified that he is still alive,so no motive for differing and following conjecture then.
B- they couldn,t verify that ,hence again no motives for them to differ whether he was Jesus or someone else ,If they crucified someone exactly similar to Jesus ,then logically there would be no motive to differ,get confused by a (unverfied claim) by his zealous disciples.


Now we have interesting Question:

What would be if we find in the Quran a verse claims that the disciples never witnessed Jesus' last days and believed the Jews' claim of crucifiction?

the answer:

there would be no problem at all, it is a case of a sincere disciple who believed that Jesus the servant of God was killed by the Jews ,as previous great prophets were killed by their hands too.....
If a disciple or even some christian early sects who belived in Jesus message as a prophet who preached them the Gospel, true monotheism ,keeping the commandments etc..,and such great prophet faced the same end that other great prophets faced before.....,we have no reason at all to consider such persons,sects as misbelievers,
they were just misinformed regarding the last days of Jesus,which holds no merit compared with the facts regarding the message he preached.
for the sake of argument,imagine if the prophet Mohamed peace be upon him never said how he will die,and he died a natural death,but his followers believed him to be killed ,using a hearsay account, Do you think if they lived and died believing in that ,to be considered as misbelievers?lacking faith? I don't think so
when should we consider them misbelievers?

If they believed that ,the claim they heard (Mohamed pbuh was killed),has something to do with alien concepts to his teachings such as (blood atonment,salvation through blood etc)....

Holy Quran 22:37 It is not their meat nor their blood, that reaches Allah. it is your piety that reaches Him: He has thus made them subject to you, that ye may glorify Allah for His Guidance to you and proclaim the good news to all who do right.

Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."


I copied it here hope to find more comments from both muslims and non-muslims as well...


peace
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Walter
09-03-2007, 03:45 PM
Hi Michael:

Imam has provided two interpretations of this verse. However, there is another.

Let us examine the verse again.

4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The Qur’an rightly says that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus, because the Gospels and recorded history shows that it was the Romans. However, we must address this phrase “but so it was made to appear to them”. To interpret this verse logically we must identify what the “it” refers to in “but so it was made to appear to them”.

The “it” can either be their boast "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" or it could be the response “but they killed him not, nor crucified him”. If any one disagrees, then please let them provide another reference to “it”.

Regardless of which of these two options you select, they both support the interpretation that the Jews (the “we “ in “We killed Christ” and the “they” in “but they killed Him not”) did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Him. As I mentioned before, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus; however, since the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans, it would certainly appear to them that they could boast about killing Jesus.

If we assume that the “it” refers to “he was not killed, nor was he crucified”, then that would clearly and irrefutably support Imam’s first interpretation. However, the verse does not say that. Further, no other verse that I am aware of in the Qur’an supports the idea that Jesus was not crucified.

Regards,
Grenville
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Michael
09-03-2007, 06:49 PM
Thanks Imam and Grenville.

The translation does seem to be off. I don't like the Hilali and Khan translation for this very reason - the commentary is added in the text itself and it's hard to tell what is the words of God and what is human interpretation.

Even Saheeh International translation makes a similar error. "And they did not kill him; nor did they crucify him, but [another] was made to resemble him to them.
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MustafaMc
09-03-2007, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by Michael
I know that the official teaching of Islam is that Allah put someone who looked like Jesus on the Cross and raised Jesus up to heaven alive. This view comes from Surah An-Nisa' 157.

However, for a long time I thought that such a view was inconsistent with God's nature. I had remembered reading a Bible verse that said "A faithful God, without deceit, just and upright is He". However today, I looked up that verse, and found that many Bible translations translate it as 'iniquity' rather than 'deceit'. I don't speak Hebrew, but I can understand some Greek, so I looked up the Septuagint version, and the Greek word ἀδικία means 'unrighteousness, wrong, injury, offence'. This puts a new angle on things, but doesn't it seem wrong for God to deceive people into thinking that Christ was crucified? Isn't God above such fraud?

Also, the Qur'an says in Surah Maryam: "[Jesus] said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; "So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)"!" (Surah Maryam 30-33)

Isn't the Qur'an saying that Jesus said that He would die? This doesn't make sense.
Malik translation from alim software - Quran 4:157 They even say: "We have killed the Messiah, Isa (Jesus), son of Maryam, the Rasool of Allah." Whereas in fact, neither did they kill him nor did they crucify him but they thought they did because the matter was made dubious for them. Those who differ therein are only in doubt. They have no real knowledge, they follow nothing but merely a conjecture, certainly they did not kill him (Jesus). The Quran does not say that Allah put the likeness on another or that He decieved mankind, but that the situation of 'Isa's last days on earth was not made evidently clear. If Allah had raised 'Isa before the arrest, trial and crucifixion and if another was taken in his place, it is a simple matter to say Allah allowed the people to deceive themselves.

Allah does and allows as He wills them to be and our understanding of "the big picture" is quite little. Quran 5:48 ...If Allah wanted He could have made all of you a single nation. But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you; therefore try to excel one another in good deeds...

Since the Quran does not say when 'Isa will die, it is not unreasonable to believe that when he returns to earth near the end of time that he will die then and be resurrected with the rest of us. On a related question, "Did Lazarus die a second time?"
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Imam
09-04-2007, 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Michael:

Imam has provided two interpretations of this verse. However, there is another.

Let us examine the verse again.

4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

The Qur’an rightly says that the Jews did not kill or crucify Jesus However, we must address this phrase “but so it was made to appear to them”. To interpret this verse logically we must identify what the “it” refers to in “but so it was made to appear to them”.

The “it” can either be their boast "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah" or it could be the response “but they killed him not, nor crucified him”. If any one disagrees, then please let them provide another reference to “it”.

Regardless of which of these two options you select, they both support the interpretation that the Jews (the “we “ in “We killed Christ” and the “they” in “but they killed Him not”) did not kill Jesus nor did they crucify Him. As I mentioned before, it was the Romans who crucified Jesus; however, since the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans, it would certainly appear to them that they could boast about killing Jesus.

If we assume that the “it” refers to “he was not killed, nor was he crucified”, then that would clearly and irrefutably support Imam’s first interpretation. However, the verse does not say that. Further, no other verse that I am aware of in the Qur’an supports the idea that Jesus was not crucified.

Regards,
Grenville
Greetings,

as a matter of fact, what you tried to say is not a possible third interpretation,it is nothing but a wild speculation...

The following explanation would put such wild speculation in a coffin and bury it forever...

First: Not true that the (It)in the verse has two possiblities.

as long as (It) not (He) is the meaning then we have only one possiblitiy that (It) refers obviously to (We killed Jesus son of mary).

second:you asserted:

(since the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans, it would certainly appear to them that they could boast about killing Jesus)

Your errors here,showed not only you are not Arabic speaking,but also tried to impose a New Testament agenda upon the Quran.......

1- you neglected the context:
If the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans,and aware of the so called crucifition by the Romans,why according to the verse The Jews differed Regarding the issue of the crucificion therein ,and were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow?


2- You wrote:

If we assume that the “it” refers to “he was not killed, nor was he crucified”, then that would clearly and irrefutably support Imam’s first interpretation. However, the verse does not say that.

If the verse says (it was appeared to them so) then it would clearly and irrefutably means that (The issue of crucifiction appeared to them so),if one agrees to the use of (It) not (He) ,and claims that (It) refers to something else other than (The act of crucifiction),then I advise him to take a basic course in Arabic,soon.

3-it would have been more effective to state that the Romans killed Jesus, rather than to empha*sise that the Jews were not in possession of the facts."



4-You wrote:

Further, no other verse that I am aware of in the Qur’an supports the idea that Jesus was not crucified.


There is another verse:


Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.


The verse highlights the basic lines in the life of Jesus,shows the bless of Allah upon him :

He was strengthened with the holy spirit,so that he spoke to the people in childhood and in maturity,was taught the wisdom ,performed miracles,so that the Jews tried to harm him ,the Violence and harm includes, their insults to him, their never-ending try to kill him,their plot to bring him to the Romans........as long as we have no Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm) then it has to include any kind of harm,and ANY TIME.....beginning from the first time he performed miracles till his last minute on his earthly mission.


according to the scenario you tried to sell,the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans,and killed him...still good will remind him of how he protected them from their harm !!!!!

1 Thessalonians 2 :14 For, brethren, ye be made followers of the churches of God, that be in Judaea, in Christ Jesus, for ye have suffered the same things of your even-lineages, as and they of the Jews. 15 Which slew both the Lord Jesus and the prophets.


the last nail I put in the coffin of your argument is that:

If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?

according to your speculation the verse would mean:

(And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee,and let them bring you to the Romans to kill you)

such wild,laughable speculation is as similar as:

Imagine once I have a beloved son who lived by two thieves, one is called John and the other is Jack,one day John brought my son to Jack and Jack stole his money by force.....

later It would be a mockery and nonsense to tell my son:

(Remember my bless on you, I did restrain John the thief from stealing you ,and let him bring you to Jack to do it instead !!)
Reply

Walter
09-04-2007, 08:16 PM
Hi Imam:

I shall respond to your concerns.

1. References to “it”.

You stated:
First: Not true that the (It)in the verse has two possiblities.
Imam, since there were only two possibilities for “it”, I listed both. You are free to choose the option that you wish.

2. The Context

You stated:
1- you neglected the context:
If the Jews brought Jesus to the Romans,and aware of the so called crucifition by the Romans,why according to the verse The Jews differed Regarding the issue of the crucificion therein ,and were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow?
Very good Imam. This is the type of response where we can all learn something.

Let us examine the sentence in its entirety.
4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

You quoted “… but only conjecture to follow”, but let us quote the remainder, “for of a surety they killed him not”. Therefore any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts - for clearly it was the Romans who killed Jesus.

3. Crucifixion

You wrote:
If the verse says (it was appeared to them so) then it would clearly and irrefutably means that (The issue of crucifiction appeared to them so),if one agrees to the use of (It) not (He) ,and claims that (It) refers to something else other than (The act of crucifiction),then I advise him to take a basic course in Arabic,soon.
I was having some difficulty understanding this. However, I shall attempt a response.

If “it” refers to “they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah"”, then this is consistent with the ultimate response “for of a surety they killed him not”.

If “it” refers to “but they killed him not, nor crucified him”, then this is also consistent with the ultimate response “for of a surety they killed him not”.

Therefore which ever of the two are chosen, the integrity of the verse remains. Now, of course they both refer to the crucifixion, so we are in agreement.

4. Effectiveness

You wrote”
3-it would have been more effective to state that the Romans killed Jesus, rather than to emphasise that the Jews were not in possession of the facts
You are correct. It would have been more effective to simply state that the Romans killed Jesus. However, look at the context of verse.

From 4:153 to 4:157, the Israelites’ unfaithfulness to God in the past is presented. Then the Qu’ran accuses the Jews of continuing this behaviour during the time of Mohammed.

So the context is providing a list of offences, namely that they:
- rejected Faith;
- uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
- said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";
- hindered many from Allah's Way;
- took usury, though they were forbidden; and
- devoured men's substance wrongfully;

In each instance, they are accused of doing something wrong. Therefore emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the facts is consistent with the context. However, since the reader would be clearly confused by the charge in 4:157, since it would seem to conflict with the Gospels and with recorded history, it is provided with an explanation that the hearers should have understood.

5. Another Verse Denying the Crucifixion

You provided 5:110. Let us examine this verse in context.

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Now the instructive part of this verse relevant to our discussion is: “And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

When did God restrain the Children of Israel? “I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs”

What were the clear signs? “and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.”

What was the Jews’ response? “and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

Therefore, the context for this verse is when Jesus was healing others during His ministry, not when he was being crucified. Therefore this verse does not support the claim that Jesus was not crucified.

6. Last Nail

You wrote:[the last nail I put in the coffin of your argument is that: If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?[/quote]

Your error here is that you are linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 when they are both speaking of different events. Verse 4:157 addresses Jesus’ crucifixion at the end of His earthly ministry, while verse 5:110 addresses Jesus’ miracles during His earthly ministry.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Imam
09-04-2007, 11:36 PM
[/QUOTE]

I shall respond to your concerns.

1. References to “it”.

You stated:
Imam, since there were only two possibilities for “it”, I listed both. You are free to choose the option that you wish.
[/QUOTE]


your response showed obviously how greatly you still confused with such Quranic issue,but no wonder as you never studied the Quranic language .

Grenville, there we go again !!!
What linguestic factor you based your (two possibilities for “it”, )on?
It would be interesting to show me any Arabic grammatical reference,Quranic interpretation...argues that “it” has two possiblities.not that (It) may means (He)....
a primary school Arabic student knows the simplicity of your error,in such simple gramatical role !!!


[/QUOTE]

2. The Context

You stated:
Very good Imam. This is the type of response where we can all learn something.

Let us examine the sentence in its entirety.
4:157, 158 - That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

You quoted “… but only conjecture to follow”, but let us quote the remainder, “for of a surety they killed him not”. Therefore any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts - for clearly it was the Romans who killed Jesus.
[/QUOTE]


You know what have you done?
You Never cared for the Quranic context,all what you did is a try to read the verse with a Biblical context,which is not Quranic...
what a distortion you made to the context !!!
you adviced me to read the context well,but did you do your advice?
I will analyse the context,and let the reader judge which one of us respect the context:

4:157, 158 - That they(the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it(the issue of crucifiction) was made to appear to them so, and those(including any group Jews,Romans etc) who differ(some believed the hearsay of the crucifiction, others denied it) therein about it(The crucifiction) are full of doubts(whether the crucifiction occured or not), with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
nothing in the verse ,even remotely denotes that any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts


for clearly it was the Romans who killed Jesus.
My friend any NT claim ,while discussing a Quranic text is wholly without merit..
from now and on avoid any NT quotation while discussing the Quran with me.....or I will consider you as those who debated me before about Quranic issues and after they failed to prove it, they seek the help of the Bible.....

we are debating :Does the Quran say that the Roman crucified Jesus?


If in a future time you decided to debate: Does the NT say that the Roman crucified Jesus?

you should put in your mind well the following words of Paul:

1 Thessalonians 2 :14 For, brethren, ye be made followers of the churches of God, that be in Judaea, in Christ Jesus, for ye have suffered the same things of your even-lineages, as and they of the Jews. 15 Which slew both the Lord Jesus and the prophets.

from now and on,anytime I will see NT stuff in your posts or any other material outside the Quran,I will never respond to your posts.







[/QUOTE]
4. Effectiveness

You wrote”
You are correct. It would have been more effective to simply state that the Romans killed Jesus. However, look at the context of verse.

From 4:153 to 4:157, the Israelites’ unfaithfulness to God in the past is presented. Then the Qu’ran accuses the Jews of continuing this behaviour during the time of Mohammed.

So the context is providing a list of offences, namely that they:
- rejected Faith;
- uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
- said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";
- hindered many from Allah's Way;
- took usury, though they were forbidden; and
- devoured men's substance wrongfully;

In each instance, they are accused of doing something wrong. Therefore emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the facts is consistent with the context.
[/QUOTE]

well done .......
according to your apeculation, If the Quran tells that the Jews claimed falsly that they killed Jesus means the Quran affirms that the Romans did it !!!

if so then the burden is on your shoulder to quote a quranic verse supports such wild speculation...and remember my advice (Never ever use external sources) in order to keep the discussion Quranic , and to avoid my ignore to your posts....



[/QUOTE]
5. Another Verse Denying the Crucifixion

You provided 5:110. Let us examine this verse in context.

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Now the instructive part of this verse relevant to our discussion is: “And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

When did God restrain the Children of Israel? “I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs”

What were the clear signs? “and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.”

What was the Jews’ response? “and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'”

Therefore, the context for this verse is when Jesus was healing others during His ministry, not when he was being crucified. Therefore this verse does not support the claim that Jesus was not crucified.
[/QUOTE]

Sadly,your argument here shows the nagative effects on the person who read others' posts with a hurry ....

what I wrote leaves no room to such assertions:

I showed before that the context for this verse is not only when Jesus was healing others during His ministry,the verse highlights the basic lines in the whole life of Jesus:

1-his childhood
Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood
2-His receive to the prophethood and wisdom
Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel

2-his miracles
behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.

3-his last days
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.


in other words:

1-Jesus performed miracles.
2-then The Jews thought he is a magician,and false prophet.
3-they tried to do (harm,violence)to him.



as long as we have no Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm) then it has to include any kind of harm (several attmepts to kill him,or their urge to the Romans to kill him),and ANY TIME....(.beginning from the first time he performed miracles till his last minute on his earthly mission.)

till you provide from the same verse any Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm), your claim that it is a limited harm holds no merit.


[/QUOTE]
6. Last Nail

You wrote:[the last nail I put in the coffin of your argument is that: If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?[/quote]

Your error here is that you are linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 when they are both speaking of different events. Verse 4:157 addresses Jesus’ crucifixion at the end of His earthly ministry, while verse 5:110 addresses Jesus’ miracles during His earthly ministry.

[/QUOTE]

lol

anyone reads my Question will find out easily that I'm not linking verse 4:157 to verse 5:110 ,I asked a simple Question:

If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him,What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?

(And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs)

this specific verse shoots your whole argument in the foot....

If God will remind him of a bless it would be nothing less than all the way protections from the Jews and logicaly others as well....

under such ridiculous scenario too ,God protected him from the Jews letting them bring him to the Romans to crucify him and deform his corpse afterwards Allah raised him up unto Himself,and day of judgment he will remind him of such bless on him !!!!:giggling:


(of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself)


Grenville ,
Sadly you has embarked upon a journey into the realm of fantasy in which people search for the nonexistent. Nothing is so biased as someone whose heart precedes his head, whose desire precedes his discretion, whose wish precedes his wisdom.
Reply

Walter
09-05-2007, 10:42 PM
Hi Imam:

It seems that we are misunderstanding each other. Let us see where we agree and then clearly identify the areas where we are in disagreement.

1. References to “it”

I do not know why this is such a contentious issue. The verse stated “but so it was made to appear to them”. I therefore tried to understand what the “it” referred to. You have concluded that “it” refers to the Jew’s boast: "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah".

Very good Imam. I agree with you since the boast is the logical subject. However, just in case another reader concluded differently, I included that option to show that the interpretation is still valid regardless of which option is chosen. I hope that we can at least agree on this.

I will have to respond to the remainder tomorrow.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Walter
09-07-2007, 09:39 PM
Hi Imam:

Following on from my last post.

2. The Context

You wrote and interpreted:
I will analyse the context, and let the reader judge which one of us respect the context:

4:157, 158 - That they(the Jews) said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it(the issue of crucifiction) was made to appear to them so, and those(including any group Jews,Romans etc) who differ(some believed the hearsay of the crucifiction, others denied it) therein about it(The crucifiction) are full of doubts(whether the crucifiction occured or not), with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Nothing in the verse ,even remotely denotes that any one who believes that the Jews killed the Messiah are full of doubts
Imam, I understand your interpretation. Please see mine below using your method bracketing [ ] your comments.

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews’ boast of killing Christ Jesus] was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein [about whether the Jews actually killed Jesus according to their boast] are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they [the Jews] killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

This interpretation does not damage the integrity of the verse; however, as you suggested, we can let the reader decide.

4. Effectiveness

You wrote:
well done .......
according to your apeculation, If the Quran tells that the Jews claimed falsly that they killed Jesus means the Quran affirms that the Romans did it !!!
It seems that we have another misunderstanding. The Qur’an does not affirm that the Romans killed Jesus, neither does it affirm that Constantine was a Roman emperor or that Josephus was a Jewish historian, or that the sky appears to be blue, or that … ad infinitum.

The issue that we were dealing with was whether it would have been less effective to show that the Jews were not in possession of the facts. I then presented the context of a list of offences, namely that the Jews:
- rejected Faith;
- uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
- said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";
- hindered many from Allah's Way;
- took usury, though they were forbidden; and
- devoured men's substance wrongfully;

In each instance, they are accused of doing something wrong. Therefore emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the facts is consistent with the context.

5. Another Verse Denying the Crucifixion

You wrote:
I showed before that the context for this verse is not only when Jesus was healing others during His ministry,the verse highlights the basic lines in the whole life of Jesus:

1-his childhood
Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood
2-His receive to the prophethood and wisdom
Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel

2-his miracles
behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave.

3-his last days
And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from violence to thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.
Imam, I agree with everything except your point number 3. Let us examine it again.

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

Allow me to use your method of bracketing my comments in order to explain the interpretation.

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs [or miracles], and the unbelievers among them [in response to seeing the signs or miracles] said: 'This is nothing but evident magic [they called the miracles magic].'

Therefore this interpretation does not place this verse in the context of “3-His last days” but “2-His miracles”.

6. Last Nail

You wrote:
the last nail I put in the coffin of your argument is that: If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him, What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?
I seem to have misunderstood you. Are you referring to verse 4:159 (And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-)?

Regards, and have a great weekend everyone.
Grenville
Reply

Imam
09-10-2007, 01:35 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Imam:

Following on from my last post.

2. The Context

You wrote and interpreted:
Imam, I understand your interpretation. Please see mine below using your method bracketing [ ] your comments.

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews’ boast of killing Christ Jesus] was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein [about whether the Jews actually killed Jesus according to their boast] are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they [the Jews] killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

This interpretation does not damage the integrity of the verse

Grenville
Greetings,

well,


If those who differed therein were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow about ,whether the Jews actually killed Jesus according to their boast or not, means to you that they believed in a Roman crucifiction (according to the verse) then sit down,relax,read the verse again:
If the Roman crucifiction was a certain knowledge to them without the need to follow conjecture,then logically no need to them at all to:
1-be in doubt regarding the Jews' claim .
2-to follow conjecture and ignore what have they witnessed of a Roman crucificion.

The verse is clear: They differed regarding the Issue of crucifiction (whether Jesus was crucified or not) ,not regarding whether the Jews killed him or not.
Reply

Imam
09-10-2007, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville

4. Effectiveness

You wrote:
It seems that we have another misunderstanding. The Qur’an does not affirm that the Romans killed Jesus,
The issue that we were dealing with was whether it would have been less effective to show that the Jews were not in possession of the facts. I then presented the context of a list of offences, namely that the Jews:
- rejected Faith;
- uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
- said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";
- hindered many from Allah's Way;
- took usury, though they were forbidden; and
- devoured men's substance wrongfully;

In each instance, they are accused of doing something wrong. Therefore emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the facts is consistent with the context.


Grenville
Not only the verse emphasising that the Jews were not in possession of the act,but also emphasising that The Jews failed and Jesus was raised up to God.......
pity if you think that God ever raised up a deformed corpse of one of his prophets to heaven


4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said , "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they [the Jews] killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.
Reply

Imam
09-10-2007, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville

I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs [or miracles], and the unbelievers among them [in response to seeing the signs or miracles] said: 'This is nothing but evident magic [they called the miracles magic].'

Therefore this interpretation does not place this verse in the context of “3-His last days” but “2-His miracles”.

Grenville
again for your benefit:

Where is the Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm) to make their attempts to kill him limited ,and not continued to his last hour on his earthly mission?
where is the clue (in the verse) that their attempt to bring him to the Romans is not included in the harm which God restrained the Children of Israel from doing to him?
Reply

Imam
09-10-2007, 02:01 PM
Originally Posted by Grenville
You wrote:
I seem to have misunderstood you. Are you referring to verse 4:159 (And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-)?


Grenville


5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'


If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him, What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?
Reply

Walter
09-10-2007, 02:58 PM
Hi Imam:

2. The Context

You wrote:
If those who differed therein were full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow about ,whether the Jews actually killed Jesus according to their boast or not, means to you that they believed in a Roman crucifiction.
In order to come to some agreement on this verse, let us try to determine the subject of “those who differ therein”. Differ about want? About:

1. the delusion? - ”but so it was made to appear to them” or
2. the response? - “they killed Him not, nor crucified Him” or
3. the boast? - "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah".

Regardless of which subject is selected, it still supports the interpretation that Jesus was crucified, but not by the Jews. However, the likely subject is the sentence preceding it, which is the delusion. Let me try to expand the verses again using your method bracketing [ ].

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews’ boast or claim of killing Christ Jesus] was made to appear to them [because they brought Jesus to the Romans], and those who differ therein [either about whether it was possible for the Jews to have been deluded into thinking that they killed Jesus] are full of doubts [because it is indeed possible for the Jews to have been so deluded], with no (certain) knowledge [because it was common knowledge that Jesus was not crucified by the Jews but by the Romans], but only conjecture to follow [since persons who held the belief that the Jews killed Jesus would be going against known recorded history], for of a surety [or without a doubt] they [the Jews] killed him not [exactly!]:- Nay, Allah raised him [Jesus] up [from the dead] unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

I noted the Roman’s involvement only because you also noted it and for clarity.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Walter
09-10-2007, 03:12 PM
Hi Imam:

5. Another Verse Denying the Crucifixion

You wrote:
Where is the Qualifiers/Modifiers to the word (violence,harm) to make their attempts to kill him limited ,and not continued to his last hour on his earthly mission?
where is the clue (in the verse) that their attempt to bring him to the Romans is not included in the harm which God restrained the Children of Israel from doing to him?
The qualifiers and clues are stated in the verse again using your method of bracketing the comments.
I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs [or miracles], and the unbelievers among them [in response to seeing the signs or miracles] said: 'This is nothing but evident magic [they called the miracles magic].'

God restrained the violence during Jesus’ signs or miracles which were previously described as healing the sick and raising the dead. We have no evidence that Jesus performed any similar miracles during the crucifixion that unbelievers asserted were magic. We can therefore reasonably conclude that this verse is in the context of His earthly ministry and not His crucifixion.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Walter
09-10-2007, 03:18 PM
Hi Imam:

You wrote:
Originally Posted by Imam
5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him, What kind of bless he will remind him day of Judgment?
Imam, I am sorry. I still cannot identify the "blessing on the Day of Judgement" in the verses that you quoted.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Imam
09-11-2007, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Imam:

2. The Context

You wrote:
In order to come to some agreement on this verse, let us try to determine the subject of “those who differ therein”. Differ about want? About:

Grenville
Greetings,

Grenville ,
the subject of “those who differ therein is mentioned in the Quran...

let's give another similar example:

The Smiths family said;we crucified Jack the enemy,but they crucified him not,but so it was made to appear to them so, and those who differed about it therein were full of doubts , with no (certain) knowledge , but only conjecture to follow .

What the first (it) refers to? (the issue of crucifiction)
What the second (it) refers to? (the issue of crucifiction)

one of the reasons of your confucion is that you follow translations ,which the word (about it) is missed though it exists in the Arabic Quran

The following is the literal,exact translation of the verse,and I challenge anyone to provide a reasonable modification to it....

4:157, 158 - And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so , and those who differed about it, are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

It always refers to (The issue of crucifiction)

you made a grave error when you wrote:

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews’ boast or claim of killing Christ Jesus] was made to appear to them [because they brought Jesus to the Romans].



what them refers to? It is clearly refers to the Jews in both Arabic and English .....
you tried to make it refers to others but that is a grave error cause the context is very very clear..

4:157, 158 - That they [the Jews] said , "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they [the Jews] killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so.

in Arabic is clear too

وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ
Even a primary Arabic school student will notice easily that (them) refers clearly to (The Jews)
Reply

Imam
09-11-2007, 09:49 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Imam:

We have no evidence that Jesus performed any similar miracles during the crucifixion that unbelievers asserted were magic.
Regards,
Grenville
If we you have no evidence that Jesus performed any similar miracles during the time of crucifixion,then never argue again from silence...

the verse has a very broad meaning ,not limited by time.....

simply it means God protected him all the way from the harm of the Jews and logically others too.
Reply

Imam
09-11-2007, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville
Hi Imam:

You wrote:

Imam, I am sorry. I still cannot identify the "blessing on the Day of Judgement" in the verses that you quoted.

Regards,
Grenville
well,let me use the word favor instead

5:109-110 - One day will Allah gather the messengers together, and ask: "What was the response ye received (from men to your teaching)?" They will say: "We have no knowledge: it is Thou Who knowest in full all that is hidden." Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

If God allowed the Jews to bring Jesus to the Romans to kill him, What kind of favor he will remind him day of Judgment?
Reply

Walter
09-12-2007, 02:59 PM
Hi Imam:

1. The Context

You wrote:
The following is the literal,exact translation of the verse,and I challenge anyone to provide a reasonable modification to it....

4:157, 158 - And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them so , and those who differed about it, are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

It always refers to (The issue of crucifiction)
OK Imam. I believe that we are in partial agreement. You believe that “it” refers to “the issue of the crucifixion”, while I believe that “it” refers to “the Jews claim that they crucified Jesus”. However, while “those who differ therein” does refer to “it” I do not believe that it does so directly. I also agree with you that “them” refers to the Jews.

For clarification, let us use your translation and I will insert my comments in brackets as before.

And their saying "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it [the Jews claim that they crucified Jesus] was made to appear to them so [the Jews who made the claim], and those who differed about it [the statement ”but they killed him not, nor crucified him”], are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge about it , but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-

Essentially, I am interpreting the verse to read that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, while you are interpreting the verse to read that Jesus was not crucified. The Verse states, “but they [the Jews] killed Him not, nor crucified Him” and therefore lends itself to both interpretations.

Now let us assume that your interpretation is correct, let us examine the consequences of “but so it [the crucifixion] was made to appear to them”.

We either have to assume that someone else was crucified that looked like Jesus, or that Jesus was only tied to the cross and not crucified. Perhaps you can suggest some other scenario. If we assume that it was someone else who looked like Jesus, then we also have to assume that even Jesus’ mother was deceived by this impostor. Since Mary was present when they took the impostor from the cross, and would have had an opportunity to closely examine him, it is likely that she would have recognised that the impostor was not her son. We therefore have to make another assumption - that she was complicit in the deception.

If we assume that Jesus was not crucified and only tied to the cross, then we must assume that the Roman soldiers were complicit in the deception. We also have to assume that the two thieves who were crucified with Jesus were also complicit or that Jesus was out of their view, or that they were blind. We would also have to assume that the Jews were complicit in the deception since they would have clearly seen that Jesus was tied and not nailed to the cross. Further, we would have to assume that the Gospel writers were frauds and that the Jewish and Roman historians who stated that Jesus was crucified were either frauds or deceived. I suppose that you can also believe that God simply deceived them all.

Imam, the choice is yours. You can either believe the verse as stated in the Qur’an, which is that the Jews did not kill Jesus. Or you can believe your interpretation, which is that Jesus was not crucified. If you believe the former, it would be in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, recorded history and the Gospels. If you believe the latter, you would have to make numerous assumptions, all of which are unlikely. I urge you to choose wisely.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Walter
09-12-2007, 03:03 PM
Hi Imam:

6. God’s Favour

Imam, the verse appears to interpret itself. It states: I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic’.”

You interpret this to mean that God restrained the Jews from crucifying Jesus, while I believe that the verse means that God restrained the Jews from harming Jesus while Jesus was doing miracles and the Jews were claiming that Jesus was doing magic – which is exactly what it states. I believe that you would have to damage the integrity of 5:109-110 to make them refer to the crucifixion.

Regards,
Grenville
Reply

Imam
09-13-2007, 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Grenville

Essentially, I am interpreting the verse to read that the Jews did not crucify Jesus, while you are interpreting the verse to read that Jesus was not crucified. ,
Grenville

The verse has both the meanings:
1-Jews did not crucify Jesus.
2-Jesus was not crucified.

as long as the verse affirms that the Jews never crucified Jesus and he was raised up to heaven ,it denotes and without any reasonable doubt that he wasn't crucified neither by the Jews nor by anyone else..

what is the deal of raising up a crucified,deformed corpse to heaven?

I got bored of clarifying the clear for you....

you really proved yourself to be such kind of persons who can never confess their being in error,and not ready to accept the corrections of others who ever refute them..

If you have any other NEW topic..open it..if not

consider my discussion with you to be over..

peace
Reply

Walter
09-13-2007, 03:08 PM
Hi Imam:

Please note that I do not hold on too tightly to any interpretation, for interpretations can change with new knowledge; however, any new interpretation that I adopt must be reasonable, and if it is based on assumptions, then those assumptions must be verifiable or reasonable. I cannot reconcile my mind to your interpretation which to me requires unreasonable assumptions, and you have not refuted my interpretation.

Let us use an analogy. Joe Springer said that he shot President Kennedy, but he did not and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, for of a surety he did not shoot President Kennedy.

This analogy lends itself to the interpretation that President Kennedy was shot, but not by Joe Springer. Even if we accepted the interpretation that President Kennedy was not shot, we would then have major difficulty reconciling that interpretation with the historical record. Can you see why I am having such difficulty in reconciling what is written in the Qur’an with what Islamic tradition teaches?

Further, the Qur’an states that God raised him up unto himself. This lends itself to the interpretation that God raised Jesus from the dead. You interpret this as God raised Jesus from a non-existent crucifixion. Again, it can be interpreted both ways. I just happen to believe that to interpret the verse that God raised Jesus from the dead remains in harmony with the rest of the Qur’an, with the Books that came before, and with recorded history.

Best regards,
Grenville
Reply

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