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Basirah
09-04-2007, 01:51 AM
Before anyone decides to comment on this, know it is a very serious question.

Can God... the infinite, powerful being that He is.... lie?
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Abdul Fattah
09-04-2007, 04:42 AM
God can do anything. The question is not: "is he able", the questions is: "is he willing?"
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syilla
09-04-2007, 04:45 AM
why God wants to lie?
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Abdul Fattah
09-04-2007, 04:47 AM
Of course he wouldn't, I was only pointing out the question was badly phrased. The word God seems to imply omnipotence if you ask me. So asking: "is a god able?" is kind of like asking: "is a circle round?".
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Basirah
09-04-2007, 04:55 AM
Well since God is able to lie, then why would he not? How do we know God does not 'lie' in your opinion? He could very well do it. I have been told by Christians that God cannot lie.

A similar question is: Can God make something so big, God cannot contain it?
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syilla
09-04-2007, 05:00 AM
Well in my opinion, people lie because they wanted to hide things, to gain something or to show off.

But why god wants to lie? God doesn't gain anything from us. Is the human gain and receive rewards for the things that we do.
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Basirah
09-04-2007, 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
Well in my opinion, people lie because they wanted to hide things, to gain something or to show off.

But why god wants to lie? God doesn't gain anything from us. Is the human gain and receive rewards for the things that we do.
Untrue. People lie for many different reasons.
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syilla
09-04-2007, 05:14 AM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Untrue. People lie for many different reasons.

yes...that is true...i only list some of it.

You should lists it all too...maybe we can see the reality of why people lie.
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 06:52 AM
reasons a god would lie.

to play a joke.
to be cruel.
to be kind.
to hide something.
to misdirect.
to fool others.
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syilla
09-04-2007, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
reasons a god would lie.

to play a joke.
to be cruel.
to be kind.
to hide something.
to misdirect.
to fool others.
What will God benefit from these? :?
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
What will God benefit from these? :?
what does it matter?
perhaps it feels like it.
perhaps god is a cruel being and gets enjoyment out of it.
perhaps it might lie to protect as a parent may to child

many rational reasons why a god might lie.
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syilla
09-04-2007, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
what does it matter?
perhaps it feels like it.
perhaps god is a cruel being and gets enjoyment out of it.
perhaps it might lie to protect as a parent may to child

many rational reasons why a god might lie.
lol...people always wants enjoyment.

Do you think God need 'enjoyment'?
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by syilla
lol...people always wants enjoyment.

Do you think God need 'enjoyment'?
do i think that a hypothetical being might want enjoyment. of course.
Most beings seem to like enjoyment.

Heck if i were god im pretty sure id be bored.

The gods in many mythologies have quite a few cruels and bad human qualities.

Jealousy , selfishness, cruelty, etc.. seem to be some of the most common ones.
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syilla
09-04-2007, 08:22 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
do i think that a hypothetical being might want enjoyment. of course.
Most beings seem to like enjoyment.

Heck if i were god im pretty sure id be bored.

The gods in many mythologies have quite a few cruels and bad human qualities.

Jealousy , selfishness, cruelty, etc.. seem to be some of the most common ones.
well...then that is your concept of 'god'. But Alhamdulillah not islam.
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------
09-04-2007, 09:04 AM
:salamext:

There's this article by brother Ansar Al Adl....a similar matter....

Question: Can God create a stone large enough that even He can't lift?

Answered by Ansar Al-'Adl

Atheists attempt to use this question to prove that the concept of omnipotence is self-contradictory. But the problem here is a contradiction in terms. This issue becomes even more clear when we examine a related question: "Can God create an uncreated being?" The problem here is that the questioner has already defined the being to be uncreated and then proceeds to ask for something that contradicts that definition. The problem is in the questioner's terms, not any lack in God's potential. The same is true when asking God to make a circle with four sides. Having already provided a definition of a circle that could never include a four-sided figure, such a question is absurd. Something is certainly self-contradictory here, but it is the questioner's terminology and not the omnipotence of God.

The same is true when we come to the case of create a stone which cannot be lifted. Aside from the problem that we are placing an infinite unrestricted being under the finite restricted laws of our universe, the concept of the stone is self-contradictory. Basically, such a stone could not exist. When one asks if God could create such a stone, one would normally identify the properties of such a stone. But here we haven't been given absoloute properties, but instead we've been given properties of the stone relative to God's properties. The questioner has identified the potential stone as something so big that God couldn't lift, so even though we already know that there is nothing God cannot lift, they have used that as an attribute for the stone. Automatically, the concept of such a stone is nullfied. Now, when they ask could God create such a stone, the answer is no, but that doesn't imply a lack of potential on the part of God. Instead, it reflects the fact that the concept of such a stone is illogical, unreal, inadmissable. It is very similar to asking if God can die. Well, death isn't an ability, its the inability to live. The immortal cannot die because that defies His attribute of immortality. Similarly, the omnipotent cannot create a task that He can't complete because such a task is merely a figment of one's imagination and could not exist.

You're basically asking, if God can do anything, can He make it impossible for himself to do something? The question is illogical and self-contradictory because the argument contradicts the premise. Once you have already established that God can do anything, then that's a set attribute and part of His nature. Therefore, He can do anything that is consistent with His nature, anything that is absolute.

Can God make 1=2? Well if 1=2, then it wouldn't be 1! So the idea is self-contradictory, not God.

The question also reminds me of the idea of what happens when an immovable rock meets an unstoppable force? The two things cannot exist in the same universe. Likewise, if God exists then all things which contradict His attributes are imaginary, non-existant and impossible. They are forever bound to the realm of imagination and cannot be brought into existence.

Shaykh Ibn Abil-'Izz (d. 1389CE) also answered this question in Sharhul Aqeedatit Tahaawiyyah (p.137), in his discussion of the following verse:
And Allah, over each thing, is omnipotent; all-powerful [al-Baqarah 2:284]

This includes all that is possible. As for what is in intrinsically impossible - such as there being a thing that exists and does not exist at one and the same time - then, this has no reality, nor is its existence conceivable, nor is it termed 'a thing' by agreement of those with intelligence. Included in this category is: [Allah] creating the likes of Himself, making Himself non-existent, and other impossibilites.

This also serves as a reply to the question posed by some: 'Can Allah create a stone that He is unable to lift?' The argument being that if Allah cannot create such a stone, He is not all-powerful; but if He can, then likewise He is not all-powerful. The fallacy of this argument lies in the fact that such an affair is, in itself, impossible and exists only in the minds of certain people. And not all that the mind conjures-up has an existence that is possible, nor is it always termed 'a thing.'
Hopefully that makes the issue clear.

And Allah knows best.
Source
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aamirsaab
09-04-2007, 09:52 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Basirah
Untrue. People lie for many different reasons.
Correct. God is however not human. So your entire logic has just be turn upside down, nullifying your argument.
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------
09-04-2007, 09:59 AM
:salamext:

Plus, read the article I provided yeh...
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Before anyone decides to comment on this, know it is a very serious question.

Can God... the infinite, powerful being that He is.... lie?
can a human become covered with feathers and flap wings thus causing him to at least float if not fly?

^ think about how ridiculous this sounds.

you see when there are attributes to everything, there are attributes to all creatures and species. We as humans have qualities which help others to recognize us, if we were lacking in these qualities then we may cease to be human, how many times have we heart the word "inhumane" used?


My point is that Allah has qualities, and he is HAQ! The truth, so it does not befit his majesty to nullify this
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islamic
09-04-2007, 11:17 AM
Basirah, or whatever was your nickname, This kind of questions are asked by and atheist, maybe you are one of them , I don't know.
Nowhere in the Quran (as I know) Allah had said HE CAN DO EVERYTHING and ANYTHING! He has power above all things, but HE CAN NOT DO ungodly things, and TO LIE is ungodly thing!
If you are a christian, I can show you WHERE, according to the Bible, God lied.
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noorahmad
09-04-2007, 11:26 AM
peace be upon you.

Allah is beyond human understanding, you cannot even guess about him, all you need to know about Allah is in the quran and hadith, matters like thinking about can god lie etc can leed you to madness. God is too powerful, too high to be undrstandby our simple human brain.
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islamic
09-04-2007, 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by noorahmaf
peace be upon you.

Allah is beyond human understanding, you cannot even guess about him, all you need to know about Allah is in the quran and hadith, matters like thinking about can god lie etc can leed you to madness. God is too powerful, too high to be undrstandby our simple human brain.
Please brother, I would not like you to continue further! Why? I will not tell you now.
Allah is not doing ungodly things, and to lie is ungodly thing! that ALL, I hope the one who opened this thread, will Understand this simple logic !
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by islamic
Basirah, or whatever was your nickname, This kind of questions are asked by and atheist, maybe you are one of them , I don't know.
Nowhere in the Quran (as I know) Allah had said HE CAN DO EVERYTHING and ANYTHING! He has power above all things, but HE CAN NOT DO ungodly things, and TO LIE is ungodly thing!
If you are a christian, I can show you WHERE, according to the Bible, God lied.
what are these godly qualities? they all seem pretty arbitrary.
I think a god could definitly lie. It seems as if you think ungodly qualities are qualities you dont like. "not to mention the idea that many say god is unknowable which i always find as a (I dont like to think about it) answer."
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islamic
09-04-2007, 12:02 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
what are these godly qualities? they all seem pretty arbitrary.
I think a god could definitly lie. It seems as if you think ungodly qualities are qualities you dont like. "not to mention the idea that many say god is unknowable which i always find as a (I dont like to think about it) answer."
Look brother, the attributes of Allah are desriben in the Quran, and also this bad qualitites are described like bad qualities, and LIEer is not one of those attributes of God!
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------
09-04-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
what are these godly qualities? they all seem pretty arbitrary.
I think a god could definitly lie. It seems as if you think ungodly qualities are qualities you dont like. "not to mention the idea that many say god is unknowable which i always find as a (I dont like to think about it) answer."
Read the article I provided please. :peace:
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islamic
09-04-2007, 12:30 PM
Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
Read the article I provided please. :peace:
yes sister, right, the one who opene this thread should read what we muslims are answering him, and when he will post again, he should post with understanding from the articles like yours.
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by islamic
Look brother, the attributes of Allah are desriben in the Quran, and also this bad qualitites are described like bad qualities, and LIEer is not one of those attributes of God!
But lets just say for an instance that god can lie.
It could still write everything in the quran. I think the point the poster of the thread is bringing up is that.
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
Read the article I provided please. :peace:
read the article, it realy doesnt have anything to do with my point.

For this case lets say god is the creator of us humans.
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------
09-04-2007, 01:23 PM
:salamext:

For this case lets say god is the creator of us humans.
Lets say?! Which 'logic' are you arguing with?! :-\

read the article, it realy doesnt have anything to do with my point.
Nothing to do with your point? Your "point", the "point" of this thread is 'Can God Lie'. God can do anything He wants to, but He wouldn't, and all that has been explained by Ansar Al Adl in the article.
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 01:33 PM
Originally Posted by Muj4h1d4
:salamext:



Lets say?! Which 'logic' are you arguing with?! :-\



Nothing to do with your point? Your "point", the "point" of this thread is 'Can God Lie'. God can do anything He wants to, but He wouldn't, and all that has been explained by Ansar Al Adl in the article.
why wouldnt it? because it would clash with your ideal?
Its pretty clear that if something created us it could be capable of lying.
The only reason you think it isnt is because of your book that could be written by someone thatcan lie.
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------
09-04-2007, 01:39 PM
:salamext:

Originally Posted by ranma1/2
why wouldnt it? because it would clash with your ideal?
No...because your argument is :-\ . Have you even studied our cells? Our DNA? Anything in our bodies? DO you know that everything is created in a perfect system? And you say this has been brought about by chance?!

Its pretty clear that if something created us it could be capable of lying.
How is that clear? I don't understand, englighten me please.

The only reason you think it isnt is because of your book that could be written by someone thatcan lie.
Useless, baseless arguments. Can you PROVE the Qur'an isn't from Allaah? I'm sure you are familiar with the miracles of the Qur'aan.

If you are not familiar with the scienttific part in our bodies, I urge you to watch these:

Click Here for Part 1 - Start from 98 minutes.

Click Here for Part 2
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
why wouldnt it? because it would clash with your ideal?.
its not about it clashing with our ideal, you see we dont give OUR ideal values at all, we recognize that the one who sent down the book has the most supreme ideals so therefore we agree with it.


to answer your question in a summarised line:

"God only does that which befits his majesty"
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InToTheRain
09-04-2007, 01:45 PM
These kind of questions come to the mind due to the Lack of Understanding of Allah(SWT) and his attributes. Can God lie? you want me to take God down to our level and compare him to us thereby denying the attributes that he is not similiar in anyway to us? well that ain't happening.

I take the stance of the wise scholars of our pst regarding this issue:

Imam Malik once said "[speculative] discussions about religion are odious to me. In fact, the people of this city [Medina] also find it odious and constrain people from it. I am reffering to discussing things such as predestination and the like. I do not like discussions unless they involve specific matters they can act upon"

You can discuss this to death, whatever the answer you get will be based on belief and whatever you conclude on this matter will be your belief. That's a fact :)

:threadclo
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Abdul Fattah
09-04-2007, 01:55 PM
Basirah, your reason is flawed. Just because God is able, doesn't mean he is likely to do so. In another example. God is able to be unjust, but he choses not to be, he choses to be the most just.

Can he make a lift that is to heavy for him to lift, or in other words can he limit his own omnipotence. Yes, of course he can.
Does that mean omnipotence is inheritly flawed? No, that's just a consequence of choice. God can choose to wave some of his powers.
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Keltoi
09-04-2007, 02:16 PM
We are working with two distinct questions. Can God lie? and would God lie?

I believe the majority of Christian thought on the matter is that God is "incapable" of lying. By incapable, I don't mean impossible, as nothing is impossible for the Almighty. I think the 4th Meditation of Rene Descarte can be applied here....

To begin with, I recognize that it is impossible that God should ever deceive me. For in every case of trickery or deception some imperfection is to be found; and although the ability to deceive appears to be an indication of cleverness or power, the will to deceive is undoubtedly evidence of malice or weakness, and so cannot apply to God (1984, p. 37).
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ranma1/2
09-04-2007, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
We are working with two distinct questions. Can God lie? and would God lie?

I believe the majority of Christian thought on the matter is that God is "incapable" of lying. By incapable, I don't mean impossible, as nothing is impossible for the Almighty. I think the 4th Meditation of Rene Descarte can be applied here....

To begin with, I recognize that it is impossible that God should ever deceive me. For in every case of trickery or deception some imperfection is to be found; and although the ability to deceive appears to be an indication of cleverness or power, the will to deceive is undoubtedly evidence of malice or weakness, and so cannot apply to God (1984, p. 37).
deception is in the bible.
Even if its a test of faith, god does deceive in the bible.
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------
09-04-2007, 02:35 PM
:salamext:

:lol: You can't answer us Muslims, so you attack Keltoi's religion, Christianity? Lol....
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Basirah
09-04-2007, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by syilla
What will God benefit from these? :?
How does God benefit from kindness?!?

If he cannot benefit, than why be kind?

Useless, baseless arguments. Can you PROVE the Qur'an isn't from Allaah? I'm sure you are familiar with the miracles of the Qur'aan.
Not my job. You have to prove its from god. Your "miracles" in the Quran are not impressive.
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------
09-04-2007, 03:33 PM
:salamext:

Your "miracles" in the Quran are not impressive.
LOL!!! Then u obviously don't know alot about the Qur'aan!!
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-04-2007, 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Your "miracles" in the Quran are not impressive.
name one miracle of the Quran you dont find impressive?

and dont make a blanket statement like "i dont consider them to be miracles".

name one which is considered to be a miracle which you dont consider to be anything special, and i'll explain to you what makes it a true miracle which is only possible from a source such as God !
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aamirsaab
09-04-2007, 03:57 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Basirah
How does God benefit from kindness?!?
God doesn't benefit - humans do.

If he cannot benefit, than why be kind?
Because humans should be nice to each other anyway. In Islam helping people/being kind is encouraged because it also counts for the hereafter.

Not my job. You have to prove its from god. Your "miracles" in the Quran are not impressive.
It is upto you to now provide a miracle from the Quran that is as you have allegedly stated not impressive. Burdon of proof is upon you since you bought it to the table.

If you cannot meet this term, withdraw your statement.
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Basirah
09-04-2007, 04:29 PM
So why would God help humans if he does not benefit? The question was asked: How does God benefit from lying? God does not benefit from anything obviously since Islam believes God is infinite.

God gains no benefit from kindness just like he gains no benefit from lies.

It is upto you to now provide a miracle from the Quran that is as you have allegedly stated not impressive. Burdon of proof is upon you since you bought it to the table.
The Quran says in Surah At-Tariq the following: Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin, yakhrooju min bayni alsulbee waalttarah-iby.

Prior to Mohammad, Hippocrates theorized that sperm went all the way through the kidneys into the ‘lower area’. For centuries this was an established (and incorrect) ‘certainty’ of the start of sperm.

But I will provide you with one of the 'miracles' I find rather dishonest. That the Quran predicts the speed of light.

Read the actual verse that is claimed: http://www.islamicity.com/Science/960703A.SHTML

Richard Carrier summed it up very well.

He makes it look real by inventing a fake connection to Einstein's "second postulate" of Special Relativity (linking the Special with the General Theory), which states that the Special Theory holds in the absence of gravity--so that in the presence of gravity transformation equations are needed. But nothing in Dr. Hassab-Elnaby's math equates to the strength of the sun's gravitational field, so he is clearly not employing any real transformation factor.

The equation Dr. Hassab-Elnaby defends is as follows:
C = 12,000 [lunar revolutions about the earth] x 3682.07 [average orbital velocity of the moon today in km/hr] x 0.89157 [compensation factor for heliocentric gravitation] x 655.71986 [length in hours of one complete lunar orbit transit today] / 86164.0906 seconds [one sidereal day on earth today] = 299792.5 km/s

The essential number, the only one that has no validity here but that is required for the result to come out as the speed of light, is the compensation factor. There is no basis whatever for introducing this. The calculation without it is entirely correct whether the system orbits the sun or not. Moreover, there is no logic in multiplying lunar velocity by the cosine (why the cosine? No answer) of the degrees of solar arc crossed by the earth in a lunar siderial month (why a month? No answer).

This bogus import was noted by Dr. Neumaier, who aptly called it "pure nonsense." He was also clever enough to catch the fact that if we have to account for that (for whatever reason), then we are also obligated to account for the sun-earth-moon system's revolution around the galactic center (and, I might add, the orbital motion of the milky way within the local cluster), but Dr. Hassab-Elnaby didn't think of this. Ooops!

Homines quicquam credent.
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aamirsaab
09-04-2007, 05:10 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Basirah
So why would God help humans if he does not benefit? The question was asked: How does God benefit from lying? God does not benefit from anything obviously since Islam believes God is infinite.


God gains no benefit from kindness just like he gains no benefit from lies.
In that case you've answered your original question; since there is no benefit in lying to His creations why would He do it.


The Quran says in Surah At-Tariq the following: Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin, yakhrooju min bayni alsulbee waalttarah-iby.

Prior to Mohammad, Hippocrates theorized that sperm went all the way through the kidneys into the ‘lower area’. For centuries this was an established (and incorrect) ‘certainty’ of the start of sperm.
That isn't a miracle. It has previously been debunked however.

As for your other ''miracle''; The ayats given (in the link) didn't specify the calculation. They merely stated that God has created the sun and moon etc to allow us to record time - heck they didn't even mention LUNAR methods. The calculation was made up by some guy who tried to use Lunar method as the core principle as opposed to solar method.

So what you wrote wasn't a debunking of a miracle, it was a debunking of a theory BASED on a ''miracle'' (quotation marks used because Quranic reference didn't actually point to a miracle of any sort).
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Basirah
09-04-2007, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

In that case you've answered your original question; since there is no benefit in lying to His creations why would He do it.
I have not answered anything. I have led us to the conclusion that god cannot benefit from anything if he is infinite. Therefore, without benefiting anything, god in fact has no reason to be nice, or truthful more than he does to lie.


Originally Posted by aamirsaab
That isn't a miracle. It has previously been debunked however.

As for your other ''miracle''; The ayats given (in the link) didn't specify the calculation. They merely stated that God has created the sun and moon etc to allow us to record time - heck they didn't even mention LUNAR methods. The calculation was made up by some guy who tried to use Lunar method as the core principle as opposed to solar method.

So what you wrote wasn't a debunking of a miracle, it was a debunking of a theory BASED on a ''miracle'' (quotation marks used because Quranic reference didn't actually point to a miracle of any sort).

It is those types of miracles that are the ones claimed. People draw from vague verses all these miracles which are in reality non-existant.
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Isambard
09-04-2007, 06:14 PM
A similar question to the rock one, is can God be evil?

Now before I get attack, Ill go into more detail :P

God is the creator of all. God created Ibliss. Ibliss felt pride and disobeyed God. This would mean sin pre-dates Ibliss' creation. God created *everything* so it then be logical to attribute the originator of sin to God?
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Abdul Fattah
09-04-2007, 09:05 PM
I already answered that. God gives choice, some choose to do wrong, that isn't God's fault.
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Intisar
09-04-2007, 11:36 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
God can do anything. The question is not: "is he able", the questions is: "is he willing?"
:sl: That's exactly what I was thinking akhee.
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Md Mashud
09-04-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
A similar question to the rock one, is can God be evil?

Now before I get attack, Ill go into more detail :P

God is the creator of all. God created Ibliss. Ibliss felt pride and disobeyed God. This would mean sin pre-dates Ibliss' creation. God created *everything* so it then be logical to attribute the originator of sin to God?
I'd rather see it as, God created a creation with freewill that has the ability to create Evil. No one suggest that none of God's creation cannot do Evil. Allah know's why he has created the opportunity (Test?), but we can surely say God does not cause Evil.
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Basirah
09-05-2007, 12:02 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I'd rather see it as, God created a creation with freewill that has the ability to create Evil. No one suggest that none of God's creation cannot do Evil. Allah know's why he has created the opportunity (Test?), but we can surely say God does not cause Evil.
Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
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Md Mashud
09-05-2007, 12:19 AM
Who implied god benefits from the test or that it is relevant for hisself?

As to answer why we have a test, only God knows, its like asking someone why anything exists, who can answer that!
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Abdul Fattah
09-05-2007, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
Well it wouldn't be fair to condemn people to eternal d4mnation without first giving them at least a test to prove their worth, now is it?
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Basirah
09-05-2007, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
Well it wouldn't be fair to condemn people to eternal d4mnation without first giving them at least a test to prove their worth, now is it?
But he knows what they will do already. To deny that is to deny his omniscience.
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Md Mashud
09-05-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Basirah
But he knows what they will do already. To deny that is to deny his omniscience.
How did that statement he made to contradict his omniscience?

The point was that, when accountability takes place - humans would have gone through the test and could not deny what they did.

Imagine I failed you on a test you DIDN'T do because I know you will fail, surely you would be like "If I had done it I would have passed" or atleast you would not be content with the verdict - considering the result of failing it would be detramental!

However, if I gave you test and you failed, then we won't have this issue. None of this contradicts omniscience, or is it to show God has limits in his powers.

Like I said, what he does is not to benefit himself, its for us :).
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Anwarica
09-05-2007, 04:46 AM
This conversation reminds me with the book "A conversation with my atheist friend) .. here's a quote:
Another wrong aspect of this question that you imagine the creator submitting to the laws of his own creatures
I just meant by this quote to think clearly, we are talking about God .. the creator not the creature :)
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aamirsaab
09-05-2007, 09:35 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Basirah
I have not answered anything. I have led us to the conclusion that god cannot benefit from anything if he is infinite. Therefore, without benefiting anything, god in fact has no reason to be nice, or truthful more than he does to lie.
OK. In which case it is up to God's will on whether or not he is ''nice'' or ''evil''. If you are referring to his creations, we don't at the end of the day know what His intentions are; the perceived ''evil'' may be a form of test. Similarly, the perceived ''good'' may be a form of reward. At the end of the day, we cannot, as humans, define whether or not God is being ''evil'' or ''good'' since both are based on perception and as humans we have a considerably smaller perception compared to God (since he is all-knowing)

If however you are referring to a larger scale aka religion, well that's where my friend FAITH comes into it. Any form of system requires faith in it to work - without faith, the system's foundations to that individual are non-existent, in which case you might as well not be part of it. In Islam we, as muslims, have faith that Allah/God is telling us the truth as far as our religion goes. As of yet, I, myself, have found no reason for God to be lying in the Quran. Why would he be telling us the truth? Maybe to help us as humans. Maybe to help end poverty, discrimination, racism etc etc.


It is those types of miracles that are the ones claimed. People draw from vague verses all these miracles which are in reality non-existant.
Yeah well sometimes, people are silly. Yes there are miracles in the Quran but the point of a miracle is not to scientifically understand it's occurance - hence it is called a miracle.
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Muezzin
09-05-2007, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
God can do anything. The question is not: "is he able", the questions is: "is he willing?"
Exactly. The question is really 'Would God lie?'

I do find it somewhat amusing how throughout the Internet, certain atheists ask what God can and can't do, when really, from their point of view, it's all BS to begin with. It's like me asking what the deeper meaning of Morris dancing is on some obscure website.

No offence to pracitioners of that fine British tradition.
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------
09-05-2007, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Why does god already create someone to test them when he knows all - and therefore knows how the test will play out?
:salamext:

If you woke up one day, and you were in heaven/hell, without knowing why you got there, what u did to deserve that place, your deeds, etc. What would u feel? That God wasn't fair right?

This is why God tests us, we have to live through our lives to earn our life in the Afterlife, whether that be in heaven/hell.
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Pygoscelis
09-05-2007, 06:57 PM
If God is all powerful, surely God can lie.

And if you follow the Christian Bible, King James Version, God did lie at least once.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
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Keltoi
09-05-2007, 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If God is all powerful, surely God can lie.

And if you follow the Christian Bible, King James Version, God did lie at least once.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

First of all, Adam and Eve did die, and so do all of their descendants. The Hebrew idiom used for "in the day" meant a certainty of death, not the immediacy of death. One of those issues with translating words into another language.
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Isambard
09-05-2007, 11:04 PM
What about the Gospel of Mark and Jesus' messianic secret?
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Keltoi
09-06-2007, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
What about the Gospel of Mark and Jesus' messianic secret?
I'm afraid you'll have to clarify what you're referring to.
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Pygoscelis
09-06-2007, 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
First of all, Adam and Eve did die, and so do all of their descendants. The Hebrew idiom used for "in the day" meant a certainty of death, not the immediacy of death. One of those issues with translating words into another language.
If this is explained by a mistranslation, its a pretty severe one.

Makes you wonder why the Christians don't insist on readings of the Bible in the original language as many muslims insist on reading the Quran in arabic.
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Md Mashud
09-06-2007, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If this is explained by a mistranslation, its a pretty severe one.

Makes you wonder why the Christians don't insist on readings of the Bible in the original language as many muslims insist on reading the Quran in arabic.
The actual original bible, very much contradicts the current form. This is because of the nature of translating the hebrew (I believe it was?) into the current form.

Muslims, if you ever seen a debate, when they say the bible prophesises the coming of our Prophet :saw:, or that it doesn't say Jesus is son of God or that trinity doesn't exist, will never use the current bible - as that would be contradictory. Rather, they will show certain mistranslations from the original texts (or atleast some transcrips that exist) to come to a conclusion - some very nice lectures on the issue by Ahmed Deedat.

I am not sure, why the actual texts are not used but rather translations, which even some christians do not abide by. In Islam, we are not allowed to make distinctions based on translations, it must be done through its Arabic and only by those qualified to be trusted in taking it into context.
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al-muslimah
09-06-2007, 12:54 AM
This question is dumb and ridiculous and you all know the answer to that.
Allah is Al-Haqq- the true.If Allah lied that means he would not fullfill his promise to us like in the end we will be victorious, and Allah as he says never breaks his promises.

may Allah guide the unguided that is if he wants them to be guided.

There is only one god<Allah and Muhammad is his messengerand servant,and JESUSIS NOT HIS SON BUT HIS SERVANT AND PROPHETAND YOU KNOW ITS TRUE SO ACCEPT ISLAM,THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION.Accept this Oh you Christians who have ascribed partners with Allah ,the Almighty.ACCEPT.THIS IS THE TRUE AND ONLY PATH AND RELIGION EVERY OTHER RELIGION IS FALSE AND YOU KNOW THIS.
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Yanal
09-06-2007, 01:29 AM
Asalam alakum i studied your point and i have this answer that if god speaks (don't know if) he only orders the angels so of course he doesn't lie to the angels that are his really close creations so that is the point by the way what is your religon?
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Isambard
09-06-2007, 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If this is explained by a mistranslation, its a pretty severe one.

Makes you wonder why the Christians don't insist on readings of the Bible in the original language as many muslims insist on reading the Quran in arabic.
Id more interested into why the majority of "christian scholars" dont apply literary critisizim to their work. Granted, this isnt only a problem in christianity, muslims trying to pove Muhammed is in the bible or show Islam to be the true religion using bible verses also have a habit of ignoring the obvious.

Given the lack of evidence for previous texts the Qur'an claims to have existed (ie. Injeel), then the evidence pts out that the bible and torah are as they always were. They were just always badly written.
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Md Mashud
09-06-2007, 02:12 AM
I know, lets change this to: Did God Lie :).

Continue discussion :D!
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Isambard
09-06-2007, 02:15 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I know, lets change this to: Did God Lie :).

Continue discussion :D!
Wouldnt poofing Jesus out of harms way and replacing him with a clone constitue as deceit?
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Md Mashud
09-06-2007, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Wouldnt poofing Jesus out of harms way and replacing him with a clone constitue as deceit?
Depends how you see it, personally I can accept that without seeing it as deceit.
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Isambard
09-06-2007, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Depends how you see it, personally I can accept that without seeing it as deceit.
Would you consider deceit to be in the same league as lying?
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Md Mashud
09-06-2007, 03:17 AM
Okay, reading upon Tafsir Ibn Kathir, It seems that rather God have acted as the deceiver, it was more of a punishment. They believed they had killed Isa (RA) due to their mistakes and that those who believe in this do so because of ignorance - It is like, we can't blame god If someone does not believe in him, we can't say that person was deceived by God, similarly this stance is taken for the majority that do believe as this was the punishment for some people).

Similarly, if God sends you to hell - we don't make the rationale that God is not forgiving, as he has sent you to hell, rather you had placed yourself their.

We know in all God's ways, he knows best. The life is a test, so we should be asured that if Isa (RA) was merely in front of them taken into the heavens - surely they would believe! But this would have ruined the purpose of life, being a test based on faith. Furthermore, those people were not of the worthy to gain such a mercy of God (as seen further below). God is omniscient, thus his doings cannot be short of justice.

So, this is a punishment, a curse, but how so and why? I present the following: It is Long, I understand not all have time, but I have bolded some parts which you can read, however to gain context it is good to read it all if you have time inshallah.

Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi, As-Suddi and Qatadah said that the Jews asked the Messenger of Allah to cause a book to come down to them from heaven, just as the Tawrah was sent down to Musa. Ibn Jurayj said that the Jews asked the Messenger to cause books to come down to them addressed to so-and-so among them, testifying to the truth of what he was sent with. The Jews only asked for this because of their stubbornness, defiance, rejection and disbelief. The disbelievers of Quraysh also asked for similar things from the Prophet, as is mentioned in Surat Al-Isra',


﴿وَقَالُواْ لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّى تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الاٌّرْضِ يَنْبُوعًا ﴾


(And they say: "We shall not believe in you, until you cause a spring to gush forth from the earth for us;) (17:90) Allah said,


﴿فَقَدْ سَأَلُواْ مُوسَى أَكْبَرَ مِن ذلِكَ فَقَالُواْ أَرِنَا اللَّهِ جَهْرَةً فَأَخَذَتْهُمُ الصَّـعِقَةُ بِظُلْمِهِمْ﴾


(Indeed, they asked Musa for even greater than that, when they said, "Show us Allah in public,'' but they were struck with a bolt of lightning for their wickedness.) injustice, transgression, defiance and rebellion. This part was explained in Surat Al-Baqarah,


﴿وَإِذْ قُلْتُمْ يَـمُوسَى لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّى نَرَى اللَّهَ جَهْرَةً فَأَخَذَتْكُمُ الصَّـعِقَةُ وَأَنتُمْ تَنظُرُونَ - ثُمَّ بَعَثْنَـكُم مِّن بَعْدِ مَوْتِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ ﴾


(And (remember) when you said: "O Musa! We shall never believe in you until we see Allah plainly.'' But you were struck by a bolt of lightning while you were looking. Then We raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful.) (2:55,56) Allah's statement,


﴿ثُمَّ اتَّخَذُواْ الْعِجْلَ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَآءَتْهُمُ الْبَيِّنَـتُ﴾


(Then they worshipped the calf even after Al-Bayyinat had come to them.) meaning, after they witnessed the tremendous miracles and unequivocal proofs at the hand of Musa in Egypt. They also witnessed the demise of their enemy, Fir`awn and his soldiers, when they all drowned in the sea. Yet soon after, when they passed by a people who were worshipping idols, they said to Musa,


﴿اجْعَلْ لَّنَآ إِلَـهًا كَمَا لَهُمْ ءَالِهَةٌ﴾


(Make for us a god as they have gods.) Allah explains the story of the Jews worshipping the calf in Surat Al-A`raf (7) and Surah Ta Ha (20) after Musa went to meet with his Lord. When Musa returned, Allah decreed that in order for the Jews to earn accepted repentance, then those who did not worship the calf would have to kill those who worshipped it. They complied with this command, and Allah resurrected them afterwards. Allah said here,


﴿فَعَفَوْنَا عَن ذلِكَ وَءَاتَيْنَا مُوسَى سُلْطَـناً مُّبِيناً﴾


((Even) so We forgave them. And We gave Musa a clear proof of authority. ) Allah then said,


﴿وَرَفَعْنَا فَوْقَهُمُ الطُّورَ بِمِيثَـقِهِمْ﴾


(And for their covenant, We raised over them the mount,) This was when they refrained from implementing the rulings of the Tawrah and refused what Musa brought them from Allah. So Allah raised the mountain above their heads and they were ordered to prostrate, which they did. Even so, they were looking above when they were prostrating for fear that the mountain might fall on them,


﴿وَإِذ نَتَقْنَا الْجَبَلَ فَوْقَهُمْ كَأَنَّهُ ظُلَّةٌ وَظَنُّواْ أَنَّهُ وَاقِعٌ بِهِمْ خُذُواْ مَآ ءَاتَيْنَاكُم بِقُوَّةٍ﴾


(And (remember) when We raised the mountain over them as if it had been a canopy, and they thought that it was going to fall on them. (We said): "Hold firmly to what We have given you.'') Allah then said,


﴿وَقُلْنَا لَهُمُ ادْخُلُواْ الْبَابَ سُجَّداً﴾


(and We said, "Enter the gate prostrating (or bowing) with humility;'') meaning that they also defied this command in word and action. They were commanded to enter Bayt Al-Quds (in Jerusalem) while bowing and saying "Hittah'', meaning: `O Allah! take from us our sin of abandoning Jihad.' This was the cause of their wandering in the desert of Tih for forty years. Yet, they entered the House while crawling on their rear ends and saying `Hintah (a wheat grain) in Sha`rah (the hair)'.


﴿وَقُلْنَا لَهُمْ لاَ تَعْدُواْ فِى السَّبْتِ﴾


(and We commanded them, "Transgress not the Sabbath (Saturday).'') meaning, We commanded them to honor the Sabbath and honor what Allah prohibited them on that day.


﴿وَأَخَذْنَا مِنْهُمْ مِّيثَـقاً غَلِيظاً﴾


t(And We took from them a firm covenant.) meaning, strong covenant. They rebelled, transgressed and committed what Allah prohibited by using deceit and trickery, as is mentioned in Surat Al-A`raf (7),


﴿وَسْئَلْهُمْ عَنِ الْقَرْيَةِ الَّتِى كَانَتْ حَاضِرَةَ الْبَحْرِ﴾


(And ask them about the town that was by the sea.)


﴿فَبِمَا نَقْضِهِمْ مَّيثَـقَهُمْ وَكُفْرِهِم بَـَايَـتِ اللَّهِ وَقَتْلِهِمُ الاٌّنْبِيَآءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ وَقَوْلِهِمْ قُلُوبُنَا غُلْفٌ بَلْ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهَا بِكُفْرِهِمْ فَلاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً - وَبِكُفْرِهِمْ وَقَوْلِهِمْ عَلَى مَرْيَمَ بُهْتَـناً عَظِيماً - وَقَوْلِهِمْ إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِيناً - بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزاً حَكِيماً ﴾


﴿وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً ﴾


(155. Because of their breaking the covenant, and their rejecting the Ayat of Allah, and their killing the Prophets unjustly, and their saying: "Our hearts are Ghulf,'' nay, Allah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief, so they believe not but a little.) (156. And because of their disbelief and uttering against Maryam a grave false charge.) (157. And because of their saying, "We killed Al-Masih `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'' but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not.) (158. But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.) (159. And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.)

The sins mentioned here are among the many sins that the Jews committed, which caused them to be cursed and removed far away from right guidance. The Jews broke the promises and vows that Allah took from them, and also rejected Allah's Ayat, meaning His signs and proofs, and the miracles that they witnessed at the hands of their Prophets. Allah said,


﴿وَقَتْلِهِمُ الاٌّنْبِيَآءَ بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ﴾


(and their killing the Prophets unjustly,) because their many crimes and offenses against the Prophets of Allah, for they killed many Prophets, may Allah's peace be upon them Their saying:


﴿قُلُوبُنَا غُلْفٌ﴾


("Our hearts are Ghulf,'') meaning, wrapped with covering, according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Ikrimah, As-Suddi and Qatadah. This is similar to the what the idolators said,


﴿وَقَالُواْ قُلُوبُنَا فِى أَكِنَّةٍ مِمَّا تَدْعُونَا إِلَيْهِ﴾


(And they say: "Our hearts are under coverings (screened) from that to which you invite us.'') Allah said,


﴿بَلْ طَبَعَ اللَّهُ عَلَيْهَا بِكُفْرِهِمْ﴾


(nay, Allah has set a seal upon their hearts because of their disbelief,) It is as if they had given an excuse that their hearts do not understand what the Prophet says since their hearts are wrapped with coverings, so they claim. Allah said that their hearts are sealed because of their disbelief, as we mentioned before in the explanation of Surat Al-Baqarah. Allah then said,


﴿فَلاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ إِلاَّ قَلِيلاً﴾


(so they believe not but a little.) for their hearts became accustomed to Kufr, transgression and weak faith.

Allah said,


﴿وَبِكُفْرِهِمْ وَقَوْلِهِمْ عَلَى مَرْيَمَ بُهْتَـناً عَظِيماً ﴾


(And because of their (Jews) disbelief and uttering against Maryam a grave false charge.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah said that Ibn `Abbas stated that the Jews accused Maryam of fornication.This is also the saying of As-Suddi, Juwaybir, Muhammad bin Ishaq and several others. This meaning is also apparent in the Ayah, as the Jews accused Maryam and her son of grave accusations: They accused her of fornication and claimed that `Isa was an illegitimate son. Some of them even claimed that she was menstruating while fornicating. May Allah's continued curse be upon them until the Day of Resurrection. The Jews also said,

﴿إِنَّا قَتَلْنَا الْمَسِيحَ عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ﴾


("We killed Al-Masih, `Isa, son of Maryam, the Messenger of Allah,'') meaning, we killed the person who claimed to be the Messenger of Allah. The Jews only uttered these words in jest and mockery, just as the polytheists said,


﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِى نُزِّلَ عَلَيْهِ الذِّكْرُ إِنَّكَ لَمَجْنُونٌ﴾


(O you to whom the Dhikr (the Qur'an) has been sent down! Verily, you are a mad man!) When Allah sent `Isa with proofs and guidance, the Jews, may Allah's curses, anger, torment and punishment be upon them, envied him because of his prophethood and obvious miracles; curing the blind and leprous and bringing the dead back to life, by Allah's leave. He also used to make the shape of a bird from clay and blow in it, and it became a bird by Allah's leave and flew. `Isa performed other miracles that Allah honored him with, yet the Jews defied and bellied him and tried their best to harm him. Allah's Prophet `Isa could not live in any one city for long and he had to travel often with his mother, peace be upon them. Even so, the Jews were not satisfied, and they went to the king of Damascus at that time, a Greek polytheist who worshipped the stars. They told him that there was a man in Bayt Al-Maqdis misguiding and dividing the people in Jerusalem and stirring unrest among the king's subjects. The king became angry and wrote to his deputy in Jerusalem to arrest the rebel leader, stop him from causing unrest, crucify him and make him wear a crown of thorns. When the king's deputy in Jerusalem received these orders, he went with some Jews to the house that `Isa was residing in, and he was then with twelve, thirteen or seventeen of his companions. That day was a Friday, in the evening. They surrounded `Isa in the house, and when he felt that they would soon enter the house or that he would sooner or later have to leave it, he said to his companions, "Who volunteers to be made to look like me, for which he will be my companion in Paradise'' A young man volunteered, but `Isa thought that he was too young. He asked the question a second and third time, each time the young man volunteering, prompting `Isa to say, "Well then, you will be that man.'' Allah made the young man look exactly like `Isa, while a hole opened in the roof of the house, and `Isa was made to sleep and ascended to heaven while asleep. Allah said,

﴿إِذْ قَالَ اللَّهُ يعِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّ﴾


(And (remember) when Allah said: "O `Isa! I will take you and raise you to Myself.'') When `Isa ascended, those who were in the house came out. When those surrounding the house saw the man who looked like `Isa, they thought that he was `Isa. So they took him at night, crucified him and placed a crown of thorns on his head. The Jews then boasted that they killed `Isa and some Christians accepted their false claim, due to their ignorance and lack of reason. As for those who were in the house with `Isa, they witnessed his ascension to heaven, while the rest thought that the Jews killed `Isa by crucifixion. They even said that Maryam sat under the corpse of the crucified man and cried, and they say that the dead man spoke to her. All this was a test from Allah for His servants out of His wisdom. Allah explained this matter in the Glorious Qur'an which He sent to His honorable Messenger, whom He supported with miracles and clear, unequivocal evidence. Allah is the Most Truthful, and He is the Lord of the worlds Who knows the secrets, what the hearts conceal, the hidden matters in heaven and earth, what has occurred, what will occur, and what would occur if it was decreed. He said,


﴿وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ وَمَا صَلَبُوهُ وَلَـكِن شُبِّهَ لَهُمْ﴾


(but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it appeared as that to them,) referring to the person whom the Jews thought was `Isa. This is why Allah said afterwards,


﴿وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ اخْتَلَفُواْ فِيهِ لَفِى شَكٍّ مِّنْهُ مَا لَهُمْ بِهِ مِنْ عِلْمٍ إِلاَّ اتِّبَاعَ الظَّنِّ﴾


(and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture.) referring to the Jews who claimed to kill `Isa and the ignorant Christians who believed them. Indeed they are all in confusion, misguidance and bewilderment. This is why Allah said,


﴿وَمَا قَتَلُوهُ يَقِيناً﴾


(For surely; they killed him not.) meaning they are not sure that `Isa was the one whom they killed. Rather, they are in doubt and confusion over this matter.


﴿بَل رَّفَعَهُ اللَّهُ إِلَيْهِ وَكَانَ اللَّهُ عَزِيزاً﴾


(But Allah raised him up unto Himself. And Allah is Ever All-Powerful,) meaning, He is the Almighty, and He is never weak, nor will those who seek refuge in Him ever be subjected to disgrace,


﴿حَكِيماً﴾


(All-Wise.) in all that He decides and ordains for His creatures. Indeed, Allah's is the clearest wisdom, unequivocal proof and the most glorious authority. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised `Isa to the heavens, `Isa went to his companions, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping water and he said, `There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me.' He then asked, `Who volunteers that his image appear as mine, and be killed in my place. He will be with me (in Paradise)' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered and `Isa asked him to sit down. `Isa again asked for a volunteer, and the young man kept volunteering and `Isa asking him to sit down. Then the young man volunteered again and `Isa said, `You will be that man,' and the resemblance of `Isa was cast over that man while `Isa ascended to heaven from a hole in the house. When the Jews came looking for `Isa, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of `Isa's followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, Al-Ya`qubiyyah (Jacobites), said, `Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to heaven.' Another group, An-Nasturiyyah (Nestorians), said, `The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to heaven.' Another group, Muslims, said, `The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad .'' This statement has an authentic chain of narration leading to Ibn `Abbas, and An-Nasa'i narrated it through Abu Kurayb who reported it from Abu Mu`awiyah. Many among the Salaf stated that `Isa asked if someone would volunteer for his appearance to be cast over him, and that he will be killed instead of `Isa, for which he would be his companion in Paradise.

All Christians Will Believe in `Isa Before He Dies

Allah said,


﴿وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَكُونُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيداً ﴾


(And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.) Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn `Abbas commented,


﴿وَإِن مِّنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَـبِ إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ﴾


(And there is none of the People of the Scripture, but must believe in him, before his death.) before the death of `Isa, son of Maryam, peace be upon him. Al-`Awfi reported similar from Ibn `Abbas. Abu Malik commented;


﴿إِلاَّ لَيُؤْمِنَنَّ بِهِ قَبْلَ مَوْتِهِ﴾


(but must believe in him, before his death.) "This occurs after `Isa returns and before he dies, as then, all of the People of the Scriptures will believe in him.''



Reply

Basirah
09-06-2007, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by al-muslimah
This question is dumb and ridiculous and you all know the answer to that.
Allah is Al-Haqq- the true.If Allah lied that means he would not fullfill his promise to us like in the end we will be victorious, and Allah as he says never breaks his promises.

may Allah guide the unguided that is if he wants them to be guided.

There is only one god<Allah and Muhammad is his messengerand servant,and JESUSIS NOT HIS SON BUT HIS SERVANT AND PROPHETAND YOU KNOW ITS TRUE SO ACCEPT ISLAM,THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION.Accept this Oh you Christians who have ascribed partners with Allah ,the Almighty.ACCEPT.THIS IS THE TRUE AND ONLY PATH AND RELIGION EVERY OTHER RELIGION IS FALSE AND YOU KNOW THIS.
Since god is infinite, he has no need to fufill any promise made. Also, how do you know your allah did not lie when he said he never breaks promises?
Reply

aamirsaab
09-06-2007, 09:22 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Basirah
Since god is infinite, he has no need to fufill any promise made.
True, yet He still does. Therefore there is a meaning behind it - we just don't know what it is.
Also, how do you know your allah did not lie when he said he never breaks promises?
We have something called faith.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Basirah
Also, how do you know your allah did not lie when he said he never breaks promises?
would you doubt someone when you have never seem then to break a promise? rather you have seen them fulfil one after another.

All the promises in the Quran are fulfilled and are waiting to be fulfilled. Allah has given us guidelines and duties and ensured us of certain rewards, i have found them all to be true.
Reply

barney
09-06-2007, 09:45 AM
Allah stated that lying was permitted as a ruse to unbeleivers.
Would he or other Gods themselves lie? Unknown.
Does God "get" anything from us?
Praise. Existance. Lots of stuff.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Allah stated that lying was permitted as a ruse to unbeleivers.
are you sure about this? the only lie God permits are ones to get ourselves out of life and death situations, we cannot lie unless we're held under the knife! but even then many companions of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam chose to be honest, may Allah reward them.

btw where did you get this from?

Would he or other Gods themselves lie? Unknown.
God allows you to sin/eat/sleep etc, doesnt mean he does it himself !

Does God "get" anything from us?
Praise. Existance. Lots of stuff.
God is in no need of any of us, we are blessed to even exist.
Reply

------
09-06-2007, 10:21 AM
:salamext:

Does God "get" anything from us?
Praise. Existance. Lots of stuff.
LOL. He doesn't 'get' that from us, that is for our own benefit, to earn a better place in the Hereafter. :rollseyes
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 10:26 AM
why do people keep thinking of God as something they can understand? you cant! the most knowledgable man who ever existed didnt even have a drop in the ocean compared to Allah !


i pray Allah guides us all
Reply

------
09-06-2007, 10:28 AM
:salamext:

i pray Allah guides us all
Ameen Thumma Ameen :thumbs_up
Reply

Chuck
09-06-2007, 10:53 AM
Does it really matter God can lie or not? In the end, everything is at the mercy of God.
Reply

Pygoscelis
09-06-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
God allows you to sin/eat/sleep etc, doesnt mean he does it himself !
Doesn't mean he doesn't either. :D
Reply

Pygoscelis
09-06-2007, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
why do people keep thinking of God as something they can understand? you cant!
i pray Allah guides us all
How is he going to guide you if you can't understand him? :mmokay:
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-06-2007, 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How is he going to guide you if you can't understand him? :mmokay:
do parents not guide their children from even before they can speak?
Reply

Keltoi
09-06-2007, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If this is explained by a mistranslation, its a pretty severe one.

Makes you wonder why the Christians don't insist on readings of the Bible in the original language as many muslims insist on reading the Quran in arabic.
Probably because Christians are more concerned with the New Testament than they are the Old, at least in terms of importance to salvation. The Garden of Eden story is understood very early on in religious education. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the Fruit of Knowledge, they opened the door to death and separation from God. It doesn't require an exact word for word translation, as there is no such thing as an exact translation.
Reply

Md Mashud
09-06-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
do parents not guide their children from even before they can speak?
This is win.
Reply

InToTheRain
09-06-2007, 04:12 PM
Can God Lie? Can God make a rock he can't move?

The root of the questions actually is questioning the attributes of Allah(SWT) we muslims believe in. It's the same as saying "Well, if attributes of Allah(SWT) give him unlimited power, can he change his attributes to a limited one? Can God be Human if he can do anything?"

To furthermore deny the attributes of Allah(SWT) they start making comparisons, trying to look for similiarities between them and One who has nothing similiar to Him by asking questions such as "We can make something we can't lift, why can't God?" The very question itself is a contradiction for how can one find similiarities to one that has no similiarities?

It's similiar to saying "one of the Attributes of Allah(SWT) has these attributes:

Al-'Awwal
The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.

Al-'Akhir
The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.

Can he change them as he has the ability to do anything?"

These questions are nonsense to a Muslim because in order to answer the question the Muslim will have to change an Attribute of Allah(SWT) (which makes that Muslim a believer) into an attribues which makes him a desbeliever.
So instead of going round the bend, why don't just come right out and ask me whether I will deny the attributes of Allah(SWT) or even entertain the thought of Allah(SWT) being similiar because the question is no diffrent.

Immam Tahawi Says:

[PIE]"knowledge is of two types: the humanley accessible and humanley inaccesibile, To either deny accissible knowledge or to claim the inaccessible is disbelieve. Faith is not sound unless accessible knowledge is embraced and the persuit of Inccessible is abandoned."

Human imagination cannot consptualise Him, nor can human undertaking rasp His reality.

As he was in eternity attributed with qualities, so He remains forever described with the same attributes.

It is not after creating that He merits the name "The creator" [al- Khaliq], nor through originating His creatures that he merits the name "The Originator" [al-Baari]
[/PIE]


And we know our limits and in inconclusive matters of knowledge, we assert, "God knows best" :)

"O Allah! Verily, I ask you by my testifying that there is no God worthy of worship except You. You are the One, the Self-Sufficient Sustainer of all, Who does not give birth, nor were You born, and there is none comparable to Him.''
Reply

Pygoscelis
09-07-2007, 01:50 AM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
Probably because Christians are more concerned with the New Testament than they are the Old, at least in terms of importance to salvation.
The new testament wasn't written in english either. If there are mislanslations as severe as the one you pointed out in the OT there are likely similar ones in the NT.

The Garden of Eden story is understood very early on in religious education. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God and ate of the Fruit of Knowledge, they opened the door to death and separation from God. It doesn't require an exact word for word translation
I think it does. I think this story is one of the most important stories in Christian dogma. It sets up original sin, without which Jesus would have served no purpose. Without Adam and the "fall of man", "salvation" is a non-concept.

It is also the first story of the first book of the bible, the place that a person would naturally start reading if picking a bible up to read for themselves. As written/translated it depicts a God who tells his creation not to eat an apple of the "knowledge of good and evil" and then punishes them severely for doing so.

There are a number of fundamental problems with the story that will confuse or even turn people away very fast. First, the apparent lie God tells (which you say is a mistranslation). Second, the concept that Adam and Eve were expected to obey God even having no knowledge of good and evil (that came with the apple so it reads). How were they to know it is good to ebey God? And third, the concept of the forbidden fruit being "knowledge", ie that ignorance is good and knowledge/science/questinioning is bad.

All of these things I point to may be due to linguistic or cultural misunderstandings. If they are, that should be fixed.
Reply

Keltoi
09-07-2007, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
The new testament wasn't written in english either. If there are mislanslations as severe as the one you pointed out in the OT there are likely similar ones in the NT.



I think it does. I think this story is one of the most important stories in Christian dogma. It sets up original sin, without which Jesus would have served no purpose. Without Adam and the "fall of man", "salvation" is a non-concept.

It is also the first story of the first book of the bible, the place that a person would naturally start reading if picking a bible up to read for themselves. As written/translated it depicts a God who tells his creation not to eat an apple of the "knowledge of good and evil" and then punishes them severely for doing so.

There are a number of fundamental problems with the story that will confuse or even turn people away very fast. First, the apparent lie God tells (which you say is a mistranslation). Second, the concept that Adam and Eve were expected to obey God even having no knowledge of good and evil (that came with the apple so it reads). How were they to know it is good to ebey God? And third, the concept of the forbidden fruit being "knowledge", ie that ignorance is good and knowledge/science/questinioning is bad.

All of these things I point to may be due to linguistic or cultural misunderstandings. If they are, that should be fixed.

Well, there is no "lie" from God here. There other instances in the OT where the phrase "on that day" is used, and in these cases it did not refer to the immediacy of something. If you truly want an example, try looking at 1 Kings 2:37, as King Solomon uses this phrase to elude to a punishment that doesn't refer to an exact day.

As for the rest of your post, it isn't really on topic and probably should be addressed in a separate thread.
Reply

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