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noahs_arc
09-05-2007, 02:25 PM
:sl:

and honestly i was speechless at what to say
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Abdul Fattah
09-09-2007, 04:12 AM
Selam aleykum sister
When a non-muslim asks you questions about religious rules, the obvious answer to these kinds of questions are "Because Allah subhana wa ta'ala forbade us to." That should be the primary reason for following a rule, any rule. Islam is a religion after all. After making that cristalclear, you can add something among the lines off: if we examin that rule however, we do see a lot of practical benefits in them. It fends the community from problems like teenage mothers, sexually transmittable diseases, chaotic dating, questionable fathership, insecure relationships, break ups, insincere "lovers", and so on...

B.t.w, doesn't Christianity have the same rule?
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snakelegs
09-09-2007, 09:18 AM
many christians are not supposed to have sex outside marriage either.
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glo
09-09-2007, 09:22 AM
True - the Bible is pretty clear on forbidding any extra-marital sex, and that includes premarital sex.
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noahs_arc
09-09-2007, 09:44 AM
christian only by name - and we had this disucssion in the sisters section too - we concluded reasons such as to keep a legitmate heir, to prevent std's (back in the days) etc etc.

i know it's haram and forbidden but i just wanted to know if there was an islamic reason - like any sunnah or anything. thanks wasalam
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Malaikah
09-09-2007, 09:56 AM
:sl:

Back in the day? Sis, STD's are probably a bigger issue now than they ever were!

It is really socially destructive.
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islamic
09-09-2007, 11:23 AM
that Christian who wants to know about this, should tell us WHY to have sex outside marriage! And after telling this, I will answer him/her.
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guyabano
09-09-2007, 07:25 PM
Hummm, I'm born christian, but refuse any religion. Despite of that, I can tell you, that most couples in the west, before they marry, make for a few years a 'test-run' to see, if they really match together. They live together, sleep together, well, they live as a couple. After this, you have bigger chances to success your marriage. People who marry without any contact before marriage are much more vulnerable to divorce, if in case, they don't match together.
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glo
09-09-2007, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hummm, I'm born christian, but refuse any religion. Despite of that, I can tell you, that most couples in the west, before they marry, make for a few years a 'test-run' to see, if they really match together. They live together, sleep together, well, they live as a couple. After this, you have bigger chances to success your marriage. People who marry without any contact before marriage are much more vulnerable to divorce, if in case, they don't match together.
I have always wondered about this, guyabano.

Do you know of any research that would suggest that cohabiting couples, or those who cohabited prior to getting married emd up more successful in their marriage? :?

It may be difficult to demonstrate either way, since longevity of marriage may not necessarily be a measure of how happy a relationship it is ...

Peace
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Woodrow
09-09-2007, 07:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noahs_arc
:sl:

and honestly i was speechless at what to say
The Burden is not upon you to prove that sex outside of marriage is forbidden. The burden is for him to show proof that any religion promotes it. Then from there you can take steps to show why it is halal and acceptable in marriage in Islam. It is pointless to try to show why something is forbidden, it makes much more sense to show what is permitted.
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guyabano
09-09-2007, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I have always wondered about this, guyabano.

Do you know of any research that would suggest that cohabiting couples, or those who cohabited prior to getting married emd up more successful in their marriage? :?

It may be difficult to demonstrate either way, since longevity of marriage may not necessarily be a measure of how happy a relationship it is ...

Peace
Well, if there do exist polls or surveys about that, dunno ! But fact is, if people get the chance to meet each other before wedding, be able to see and study each others habits, having sexual relation, partners can much easier find out, if they want to stay with this partner in an longterm relationship, or prefer more to see for somebody else.
I did it that way, and I have absolutely no regrets, coz the first girlfriend was not the right one. The second was. So if I would have married immediately, well, I would already have a divorce behind me.
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guyabano
09-09-2007, 07:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
It may be difficult to demonstrate either way, since longevity of marriage may not necessarily be a measure of how happy a relationship it is ...

Peace
So true ! And there are a lot of 'married unhappy' couples out there :cry:
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Michael
09-09-2007, 07:44 PM
Surveys have actually shown that couples who cohabit before marriage and engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage are much more likely to divorce.
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glo
09-09-2007, 07:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Well, if there do exist polls or surveys about that, dunno ! But fact is, if people get the chance to meet each other before wedding, be able to see and study each others habits, having sexual relation, partners can much easier find out, if they want to stay with this partner in an longterm relationship, or prefer more to see for somebody else.
I did it that way, and I have absolutely no regrets, coz the first girlfriend was not the right one. The second was. So if I would have married immediately, well, I would already have a divorce behind me.
Let me tell you that my now-husband and I lived together for 13 (!) years before we finally got married (although that was before I became a Christian) ... so I know where you are coming from.

But let me ask you this:
If you had had the opportunity to get to know your girlfriend in every way except for having sex with her (I mean in terms of her personality, her lifestyle, her likes/dislikes, her views on life, her sexuality on a 'theoretical level', her beliefs, her fears, her dreams, etc, etc) - do you think you would have known her well enough to get married to her?
Do you think you would have been likely to click sexually too?
Or do you think being sexually incompatible in any way would be enough of a problem to rock an otherwise harmonious realtionship?

Peace
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glo
09-09-2007, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Michael
Surveys have actually shown that couples who cohabit before marriage and engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage are much more likely to divorce.
Michael, if you can find links to such surveys, I would be interested to read them.
Thanks! :)
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guyabano
09-09-2007, 07:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Let me tell you that my now-husband and I lived together for 13 (!) years before we finally got married (although that was before I became a Christian) ... so I know where you are coming from.

But let me ask you this:
If you had had the opportunity to get to know your girlfriend in every way except for having sex with her (I mean in terms of her personality, her lifestyle, her likes/dislikes, her views on life, her sexuality on a 'theoretical level', her beliefs, her fears, her dreams, etc, etc) - do you think you would have known her well enough to get married to her?
Do you think you would have been likely to click sexually too?
Or do you think being sexually incompatible in any way would be enough of a problem to rock an otherwise harmonious realtionship?

Peace
Well, I think NO ! I would still insist of this 'try-first' relationship. A good marriage is not only a matter of same thinking, peace love and harmony, but also compatibility in sexual pleasures. I don't like to go further in this topic due to the rules of the forum, but I'm pretty sure, you get what I mean
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guyabano
09-09-2007, 07:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Michael
Surveys have actually shown that couples who cohabit before marriage and engage in sexual intercourse outside of marriage are much more likely to divorce.
I would like to see that also. Can you provide a link please?
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nevesirth
09-09-2007, 08:40 PM
silly, rethorical and ignorant question. the best answer to such questions is silence. if that person was really a christian as he or she claims then that question will not be asked in the first place. is christianity not also against pre-marital sex? the person in question was just being silly period.
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Md Mashud
09-09-2007, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hummm, I'm born christian, but refuse any religion. Despite of that, I can tell you, that most couples in the west, before they marry, make for a few years a 'test-run' to see, if they really match together. They live together, sleep together, well, they live as a couple. After this, you have bigger chances to success your marriage. People who marry without any contact before marriage are much more vulnerable to divorce, if in case, they don't match together.
This is, far from the truth according to what really happens! :O...

Also, cohabiting relationships have damaging side effects, from mild to extremely serious.

Usually, pre-maritual sex/relationships usually make one less compromising in relationships (compromising/understanding is the glue to a marriage), more likely to call it off then rather work on it and just generally have much more fights and arguements- due to past freedom of experience. I would definatly, from observations and reading, have to agree that people will find it harder to settle if they had previous relationships, especially those which went wrong.

Im not saying its impossible to make one work, but I think it makes it harder for the future... I guess its one of those things you really have to study or experience in real life, to see the effect on them, which may not be so clear.

silly, rethorical and ignorant question. the best answer to such questions is silence. if that person was really a christian as he or she claims then that question will not be asked in the first place. is christianity not also against pre-marital sex? the person in question was just being silly period.
Yep, even though christians should oppose it, we come to a day, when people compromise religion to a great amount. Alot of churches are already allowing homosexuality - which is a big no according to christianity. Apparently this book isn't made for our times, that we need to update it. My question to them is, if this book is not matching to our times, ditch it, why are you following it at all!
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Grace Seeker
09-10-2007, 01:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Hummm, I'm born christian, but refuse any religion. Despite of that, I can tell you, that most couples in the west, before they marry, make for a few years a 'test-run' to see, if they really match together. They live together, sleep together, well, they live as a couple. After this, you have bigger chances to success your marriage. People who marry without any contact before marriage are much more vulnerable to divorce, if in case, they don't match together.


You know I hear this from people all the time. People think it makes logical sense. But guess what. It doesn't actually work out that way. The incidence of people who live together before marriage divorcing is actually higher than those who do not live together before marraige (at least in the United States). There might be reasons connected to this beyond just living together, for instance, people who are more religious and respect their religion's moral guidelines against livinig together before marraige, might also be more likely to try to work out a struggling marriage, whereas those who have no compulsion just decide to get a divorce as the easy way to deal with their problems, rather than actually working on. But anyway, according to many different surveys, those folks who live together before marriage are more not less likely to have failed marriages than those that wait till marriage.

Oh, and just in case people were not aware of it, Christianity teaches the same as Islam that couples should not engage in sex before marriage. That people go ahead and do so anyway is a testimony to how little many people are willing to actually practice their religion rather than just doing what they want to do simply because they want to do it. But it isn't part of Christian teaching at all. Thus, any Christain who questions why someone else (of whatever religion) would wait to have sex until married, doesn't understand his/her own faith very well.
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syilla
09-10-2007, 05:04 AM
The Myths and Reality of Living Together Without Marriage
Janice Shaw Crouse, Ph.D.
The Beverly LaHaye Institute

In the United States, living together instead of marrying has become the norm for couples - half of young adults aged 20-40 are cohabiting instead of getting married. Cohabitation has increased nearly 1,000 percent since 1980, and the marriage rate has dropped more than 40 percent since 1960.

Some see substituting living together for marriage as an insignificant shift in family "structure." Those who are better informed realize that the shift has disastrous ramifications for the individuals involved, as well as for society and public policy.

The faulty reasoning leading young adults to make such a poor choice must be exposed. Here are four myths surrounding the shift.

Myth #1: Living together is good way to "test the water."


Many couples say that they want to live together to see if they are compatible, not realizing that cohabitation is more a preparation for divorce than a way to strengthen the likelihood of a successful marriage -- the divorce rates of women who cohabit are nearly 80 percent higher than those who do not. In fact, studies indicate that cohabiting couples have lower marital quality and increased risk of divorce. Further, cohabiting relationships tend to be fragile and relatively short in duration; less than half of cohabiting relationships last five or more years. Typically, they last about 18 months.

Myth #2: Couples don't really need that "piece of paper."

A major problem with cohabitation is that it is a tentative arrangement that lacks stability; no one can depend upon the relationship -- not the partners, not the children, not the community, nor the society. Such relationships contribute little to those inside and certainly little to those outside the arrangement. Sometimes couples choose to live together as a substitute for marriage, indicating that, in case the relationship goes sour, they can avoid the trouble, expense and emotional trauma of a divorce. With such a weak bond between the two parties, there is little likelihood that they will work through their problems or that they will maintain the relationship under pressure.

Myth #3: Cohabiting relationships usually lead to marriage.

During the 1970s, about 60 percent of cohabiting couples married each other within three years, but this proportion has since declined to less than 40 percent. While women today still tend to expect that "cohabitation will lead to marriage," numerous studies of college students have found that men typically cohabit simply because it is "convenient." In fact, there is general agreement among scholars that living together before marriage puts women at a distinct disadvantage in terms of "power." A college professor described a survey that he conducted over a period of years in his marriage classes. He asked guys who were living with a girl, point blank, "Are you going to marry the girl that you're living with?" The overwhelming response, he reports, was "NO!" When he asked the girls if they were going to marry the guy they were living with, their response was, "Oh, yes; we love each other and we are learning how to be together."

Myth #4: Cohabiting relationships are more egalitarian than marriage.

It is common knowledge that women and children suffer more poverty after a cohabiting relationship breaks up, but it's not so well understood that there is typically an economic imbalance in favor of the man within such relationships, too. While couples who live together say that they plan to share expenses equally, more often than not the women support the men. Studies show that women typically contribute more than 70 percent of the income in a cohabiting relationship. Likewise, the women tend to do more of the cleaning, cooking and laundry. If they are students, as is often the case, and facing economic or time constraints that require a reduction in class load, it is almost invariably the woman, not the man, who drops a class.

Conclusion

A mass of sociological evidence shows that cohabitation is an inferior alternative to the married, intact, two-parent, husband-and-wife family. Increasingly, the myths of living together without marriage are like a mirror shattered by the force of the facts that expose the reality of cohabitation.

Dr. Janice Shaw Crouse is a Senior Fellow of Concerned Women for America’s Beverly LaHaye Institute. She writes about contemporary issues that affect women, family, religion and culture in her regular column "Dot.Commentary."

source

another article

and another article

and another article
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guyabano
09-10-2007, 08:15 AM
I think, it should be everybody's choice to go the way he/she like.
I can bring you also many links to websites who just say the oppsite, it just depends on what direction the author is, pro religious or not.

The point is: Is sex before marriage harmful physically to the body? No, of course not. The fact, Sex should be forbidden before marriage is just an opinion from some few religious people who wrote these holy books, and that was more than 1000 years ago. Now, can this still be applied to modern age? My opinion is NO. When you go to a shop and you like to buy something, isn't it natural, that you first want to see what you buy? Usually, when a person go to a grocery to buy veggies and fruits, you like to see, smell and touch them first before handing some money, right? So why can this not be good for humans?
I want to know the person first before I start an longterm relationship with her
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guyabano
09-10-2007, 08:16 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
The incidence of people who live together before marriage divorcing is actually higher than those who do not live together before marraige (at least in the United States).
Is that just your opinion, or can you provide me a link, where this can be read out?
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Malaikah
09-10-2007, 10:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
The point is: Is sex before marriage harmful physically to the body? No, of course not.
Three words for you mate: sexually transmitted infections.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-10-2007, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by noahs_arc
:sl:

and honestly i was speechless at what to say
it destroys families/spreads diseases and could lead to further immorality.


i could write pages on each of the above, but i hope you can understand from that
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Grace Seeker
09-10-2007, 12:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Is that just your opinion, or can you provide me a link, where this can be read out?
Not today, I'm off to a game and won't be back at my desk till tomorrow. But I see that Syilla has already done exactly what you asked for.

You said that you can provide many other links to the contrary. I would like to see them if they really exist. And again, as you have state, links that are not just opinion, but that are based on research. Thus far, it seems that you are the one merely offering opinion as fact.
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YusufNoor
09-11-2007, 02:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by noahs_arc

:sl:

and honestly i was speechless at what to say
:sl:

and no one directed you to Surah 24, An Nur????

read it.

:w:
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syilla
09-11-2007, 03:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by YusufNoor
:sl:

and no one directed you to Surah 24, An Nur????

read it.

:w:
lol...if people asked me islamically why? I just answered them by saying islamically because Allah swt told us so. :exhausted
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islamic
09-11-2007, 10:25 AM
Look, this SEX outside marriage and this TRY before getting married, is making the western countries like they are now, and they are getting worse! The rate of divorce is HUGE, the rate of ******* children also is HUGE, EVERY ugly and immoral thing is happening. WHY? because of this SEX outside the marriage, because of this TRY before getting married! You know, you will TRY with one, with another, and another and another and another ... and what will you become? how is called in your language a woman that had sex outside marriage with MANY man?
Look brothers, sisters, with SEX outside marriage you can achieve only BAD things.
Why should we have sex outside marriage? to allow all this bad things to happen? To have prostitutes in the corner? to have many ******* children? to produce some other disease like AIDS?
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guyabano
09-11-2007, 11:42 AM
So, according to your words, I'm bad. You just don't have the guts to speak it out.
You are a perfect example, why Islam will never make it to West Europe.
If I use your way of logical thinking, I can also pretend, that all muslims are terrorists. They put their wifes belts full of explosives around, use their children as human shields to protect themselves. What a decline of moral values !!!

Now, do you like this one?
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islamic
09-11-2007, 11:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
So, according to your words, I'm bad. You just don't have the guts to speak it out.
You are a perfect example, why Islam will never make it to West Europe.
If I use your way of logical thinking, I can also pretend, that all muslims are terrorists. They put their wifes belts full of explosives around, use their children as human shields to protect themselves. What a decline of moral values !!!

Now, do you like this one?
I am sorry my "brother in humanity" BUT don't you see that MORE AND MORE western people accept Islam?
did I say ALL CHRISTIANS are having sex outside of marriage? I NEVER SAID THAT! why you try to twist things and to start talking about Muslims and terrorism?
I was talking about that how "GOOD" it is to have sex outside marriage ...
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Woodrow
09-11-2007, 12:06 PM
Generalizations about any people or group do not reflect the group. They are simply preconceived opinions. Each of us has an opinon as to what a Muslim is, what a Westerner is what a European is. None of our concepts will apply to all.

My picture of a Muslim will differ very much from that of what a neo-nazi pictures. My picture is that of peace and justice. Although I do know there are people who carry the name of Muslim, but do not follow Islam.

So it is with all people. Having been born in the USA I know I have a different opinion of an American, than a person living in Iraq. But, we are simply saying what we have seen and were told. Most Americans I personally know are peaceful farmers or very devout Muslims. A the present time it would be safe to say that my entire circle of close American friends are Muslim. But, I know it is just as much of an error to say all Americans are Muslims as it would be to say all Americans are evil, deranged, followers of shaytan.

Generalities, are artificial labels and few people fit labels.
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guyabano
09-11-2007, 12:20 PM
ok, let's see:

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
The rate of divorce is HUGE, the rate of ******* children also is HUGE
Ermmmm, divorce in Islamic countries are wiped under the carpet because it is shameful, and still Divorce also exist which engender also ******* children (whatever this means).

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
EVERY ugly and immoral thing is happening.
Like ?

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
You know, you will TRY with one, with another, and another and another and another
Where did you get that ? I know many people who also marry their first girl/boyfriend, like f.ex. my co-worker. She's pregnant since one month and they plan to marry in a couple of months. So what is the problem?

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
how is called in your language a woman that had sex outside marriage with MANY man?
That is called 'She had a lot of fun and pleasure.' She doesn't take money for that, so she's certainly not a prostitute.
But of course, if she has sex with other men but being married, then it is bad. I agree on this point.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
Look brothers, sisters, with SEX outside marriage you can achieve only BAD things.
Like?

format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
To have prostitutes in the corner? to have many ******* children? to produce some other disease like AIDS?

Sorry, my 'brother in humanity', Prostitution also exist in islamic countries. It is just practicised hidden


I find it sad, that you just tag all westerners, who didn't marry prior to sex as bad and evil. I just found out that my first girlfriend was not the right to marry. This has nothing to do with prostitution. We were a couple for 7 years. Would you then prefer, I would have married her first, then divorce??
I'm now since 7 years married to a asian woman, we have 2 kids, and a third is on the way. We're an interracial couple and we have a strong and deep binding. We just married in law, but never religious, and still our marriage is perfect.

I really don't get this permanent bashing on people, who are different thinking from muslims. I just came to this forum, because I want to learn about Islam.
Now, these are the kind of comments I get, so you can imagine how my opinion about muslims also become
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Grace Seeker
09-11-2007, 12:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
So, according to your words, I'm bad. You just don't have the guts to speak it out.
You are a perfect example, why Islam will never make it to West Europe.
If I use your way of logical thinking, I can also pretend, that all muslims are terrorists. They put their wifes belts full of explosives around, use their children as human shields to protect themselves. What a decline of moral values !!!

Now, do you like this one?
I don't know whether you are bad or not. I don't know you so I can't speak to your character. I know these things.

1) That Jesus said that only God is good. (""No one is good—except God alone." -- Mark 10:18b and Luke 18:9b)

2) That those who desire to live lives that are in accord with the will of God will abstain from sex outside of marriage. ("But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." -- Ephesians 5:3)


If you are not concerned about these things that the scriptures speak of, then surely you could care less what any of us say either.

As to whether I, a non-Muslim, like it when people label all Muslim persons as terrorists; no, I don't. I don't like it when anyone speaks of people in generic terms as if all Muslims were terrorists (though some are, I personally know many Muslims of whom none are terrorist) or all Christians were involved in premarital sex (while some are, I also know many Christians who did not and are not so engaged) or all Americans are arrogant (well, I may have to give you that one). And though I think you don't really believe such generalities to be true (you did use the word "pretend" in your post) I don't like that your post still seemed to me to seek to demean Muslims as a group. And I don't like that. I don't like that, because I believe that people who behave in such a way actually demean themselves in the process, and I don't like to see anyone demeaned by another, even when it is an individual demeaning himself by his own actions.
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guyabano
09-11-2007, 12:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker
I don't know whether you are bad or not. I don't know you so I can't speak to your character. I know these things.

1) That Jesus said that only God is good. (""No one is good—except God alone." -- Mark 10:18b and Luke 18:9b)

2) That those who desire to live lives that are in accord with the will of God will abstain from sex outside of marriage. ("But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people." -- Ephesians 5:3)


If you are not concerned about these things that the scriptures speak of, then surely you could care less what any of us say either.

As to whether I, a non-Muslim, like it when people label all Muslim persons as terrorists; no, I don't. I don't like it when anyone speaks of people in generic terms as if all Muslims were terrorists (though some are, I personally know many Muslims of whom none are terrorist) or all Christians were involved in premarital sex (while some are, I also know many Christians who did not and are not so engaged) or all Americans are arrogant (well, I may have to give you that one). And though I think you don't really believe such generalities to be true (you did use the word "pretend" in your post) I don't like that your post still seemed to me to seek to demean Muslims as a group. And I don't like that. I don't like that, because I believe that people who behave in such a way actually demean themselves in the process, and I don't like to see anyone demeaned by another, even when it is an individual demeaning himself by his own actions.

Well you are right. Please apologize my english. Sometimes, I take time to find the right words, as english is not my mother language.

The story with muslims as terroists is of course something which is NOT TRUE. I just wanted to give the example back using the same logic thinking than 'islamic' did saying 'all westerners are bad, immoral, all women are prostitutes, carrying diseases, etc....
I was a bit upset, pardon me if you got this wrong !
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Grace Seeker
09-11-2007, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Well you are right. Please apologize my english. Sometimes, I take time to find the right words, as english is not my mother language.

The story with muslims as terroists is of course something which is NOT TRUE. I just wanted to give the example back using the same logic thinking than 'islamic' did saying 'all westerners are bad, immoral, all women are prostitutes, carrying diseases, etc....
I was a bit upset, pardon me if you got this wrong !
No, problem. I understand what it is like to try to speak in something other than one's native language. (Es muy dificil para mi tambien.) And I think it may be that English is not Islamic's mother tongue also.

I just went back to re-read Islamic's post, and he didn't actually say that all westerners are bad or immoral or that all women are prostitutes. What I got from what he said is that he sees enough of behaviors that he considers immoral (behavior such as people having sex outside of marriage and getting divorced) that he believes these behaviors are actually negatively impacting western socities. Islamic also expressed that he doesn't think any "good" can come out of the practice of having sex outside of marriage, that he can only think of "bad" outcomes from such behavior, then he named what are a few of those things that he believes are examples are bad outcomes when a society is open to many people having sex outside of marriage. And speaking personally now, even though I am a westerner, I think there is some merit to Islamic's observations with regard to westerner society.

(For an example of why I think westerner society has lost its moral compass read this article evidencing what passes for humor these days: Griffin's Emmy remarks to be censored, and to think enough people like this sort of thing that Saturday Night LIve won an Emmy with it. Note: don't look if you are easily offended.)
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NYCmuslim
09-12-2007, 12:37 AM
The Quran doesn't say that pre-marital sexual relations is forbidden just for the sake of saying it. The same goes for not consuming alcohol and other intoxicants (drugs) as well as other rules. The Quran doesn't set these rules for no reason. Islam is more of a way of life than a religion. Islam set up these rules to work collectively together as a way of benefitting the human individual and the human society. It is a way to uplift and progress our "Self". To improve our and society's moral character. When we succumb to our desires, this can lead to trouble.

Having said that, I will repeat what some have said in this discussion. If we look at the western societies, where materialism and consumerism is dominant and where most of the people (not all but most) live by following their desires and disregarding religious rules, we see that there is a major problem with teenage pregnancy, spread of AIDS and other STD's, instability b/w opposite gender couples, rape, high divorce rates, etc.

Now, am I saying that every western individual experience these problems? NO! I see that we have some westerners in this discussion that apparently do not face the problems of pre-mat sex. Okay, fine for you. What Im pointing out is that these are problems of the whole western societies. If you look at the vital statistic numbers on the internet or from other credible sources about the aforementioned problems, you will see that the western nations lead in these problematic areas.

Am I saying that rape, divorce, STDs spread etc., doesn't occur in Islamic countries? NO!. We are humans, Allah gave us freewill, no body is perfect. In fact, in the case of divorce, there are verses in the Quran that pertain to how divorces should be handled. Getting back to the point, what Im trying to say is that these problems in Islamic countries are not common or rampant enough to damage the societies of Islamic countries. These problems aren't as widespread as they are in the western nations. Again, if you look at vital statistics, Islamic countries are ranked much lower in these areas. One would be a fool to think that something such as rape is non-existant in Islamic nations. But Alhumdulillah these problems aren't so significant that they damage the Islamic societies where the majority of the people live by the Islamic law as derived form the Quran.

Not engaging in pre-marital sex is not a limitation or an oppressive restriction just for the sake of being such. It is there because, in practice, this rule can uplift an individuals moral character and most importantly, it can help progress a healthy and happy society. Humans are the creation of the Almighty God and no one knows their creation better than the Creator Himself, which is the Almighty God.

I briefly wrote down whatever just came from the top of my head. If I have more chance to think about this then, Inshallah, my response would have been more elaborate.

:w: Peace to you all.
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mustafaisb
09-12-2007, 01:05 AM
:salamext: I wanted to point out that. Isn't the divorce rate in the U.S. 60%.
I'm 100% sure of this because I remember reading it in a sociology textbook.
:wasalmex
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NoName55
09-12-2007, 01:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
I have always wondered about this, guyabano.

Do you know of any research that would suggest that cohabiting couples, or those who cohabited prior to getting married emd up more successful in their marriage? :?

It may be difficult to demonstrate either way, since longevity of marriage may not necessarily be a measure of how happy a relationship it is ...

Peace
Salam

co-habitting has more to do with property laws, financial benefits and taxes than "test runs"
Reply

islamic
09-12-2007, 11:30 AM
guyabano, you should controle your emotions. why you get so angry? Truth hurts or ..? easy man, easy, take it easy, not all at once!
You say divorce is shamefull, and having sex outside marriage (thing that you support) is not shamefull? With other words, to divorce someone is shamefull , and to have sex outside marriage is OK and there is nothing to shame about that? Look brother ... it's a first time in my life to read this kind of Nonsense!
You Massacred my comentary :) you took words from here, words from there ... you gived TEXT without CONTEXT and with that you have tried to ... support HAVING SEX outside marriage.
Anyway, I will not do that with youre commentary, but I must touch some interesting things you said, that are funny for me.
In my question: "how is called in your language a woman that had sex outside marriage with MANY man?",
YOU guyabano answered: "That is called 'She had a lot of fun and pleasure.' She doesn't take money for that, so she's certainly not a prostitute. But of course, if she has sex with other men but being married, then it is bad. I agree on this point."
:sunny: Did I asked you about the pleasure and fun the woman HAD having sex outside marriage with MANY man/woman? did I asked you that? NO, I didn't ask that, I wanted to know HOW do you call A WOMAN that had sex outside marriage with many man. That was what I wanted to know, HOW DO YOU CALL THE WOMAN, I didn't want to know does that woman had pleasure and fun. But, ANYWAY, thank you for answering me that. :) maybe you call that kind of woman "PROSTITUTE for FREE", and for me that is WORSE because, she GIVE SEX and man don't have to pay for that!!!!! she give her body, her chastity FOR FREE! ugly!
And, if I got your point guyabano, for you is OKAY if a woman have sex with MANY MAN before she got married, AM I RIGHT? before marriage, she can have sex , and sex, and sex, and sex and sex and sex and sex ... FOR FREE, but when she got married :) if she do that, it's wrong!!! well, HOW SHE WILL STOP doing her services for free? will she exchange that FUN AND PLEASURE? I don't think so!

format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
'islamic' did saying 'all westerners are bad, immoral, all women are prostitutes, carrying diseases, etc....
WHERE DID I SAID THIS? don't put youre words in my mouth! PLEASE!
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islamic
09-12-2007, 11:37 AM
NYCmuslim, thank you for your great commentary. I hope guyabano will read it and understand what YOU are trying to say to him, and what I also am trying to say to him!
Reply

guyabano
09-12-2007, 11:53 AM
Don't try to get out of your story now. I pinpoint out what kind of person you are. And stop playing the good boy-bad boy story.

I made my point, now take it or leave it. I will not repeat now 50x what I said.

I'm out of this thread.
Reply

islamic
09-12-2007, 11:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
Don't try to get out of your story now. I pinpoint out what kind of person you are. And stop playing the good boy-bad boy story.

I made my point, now take it or leave it. I will not repeat now 50x what I said.

I'm out of this thread.
look brother, I am in the story, and I will stay in the story. What kind of person I am , or what kind of person you are ... Allah will judge us.
I just want to remind you again to not put youre words on my commentary, don't say that I HAVE SAID SOMETHING which i DIDN'T!!
Reply

Grace Seeker
09-12-2007, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamic
guyabano, you should controle your emotions. why you get so angry? Truth hurts or ..? easy man, easy, take it easy, not all at once!
You say divorce is shamefull, and having sex outside marriage (thing that you support) is not shamefull? With other words, to divorce someone is shamefull , and to have sex outside marriage is OK and there is nothing to shame about that? Look brother ... it's a first time in my life to read this kind of Nonsense!
You Massacred my comentary :) you took words from here, words from there ... you gived TEXT without CONTEXT and with that you have tried to ... support HAVING SEX outside marriage.
Anyway, I will not do that with youre commentary, but I must touch some interesting things you said, that are funny for me.
In my question: "how is called in your language a woman that had sex outside marriage with MANY man?",
YOU guyabano answered: "That is called 'She had a lot of fun and pleasure.' She doesn't take money for that, so she's certainly not a prostitute. But of course, if she has sex with other men but being married, then it is bad. I agree on this point."
:sunny: Did I asked you about the pleasure and fun the woman HAD having sex outside marriage with MANY man/woman? did I asked you that? NO, I didn't ask that, I wanted to know HOW do you call A WOMAN that had sex outside marriage with many man. That was what I wanted to know, HOW DO YOU CALL THE WOMAN, I didn't want to know does that woman had pleasure and fun. But, ANYWAY, thank you for answering me that. :) maybe you call that kind of woman "PROSTITUTE for FREE", and for me that is WORSE because, she GIVE SEX and man don't have to pay for that!!!!! she give her body, her chastity FOR FREE! ugly!
And, if I got your point guyabano, for you is OKAY if a woman have sex with MANY MAN before she got married, AM I RIGHT? before marriage, she can have sex , and sex, and sex, and sex and sex and sex and sex ... FOR FREE, but when she got married :) if she do that, it's wrong!!! well, HOW SHE WILL STOP doing her services for free? will she exchange that FUN AND PLEASURE? I don't think so!



WHERE DID I SAID THIS? don't put youre words in my mouth! PLEASE!

Look Islamic, it is obvious that English isn't your native tongue. I supported your previous comments, but in attacking guyabano in this post you are trying to force him to say something in the same way he did that to you. Both are wrong.

It seems you want guyabano to say that a woman who has sex with many different men is a prostitute. But that IS NOT the definitiion of prostitute in the English language. The definition of a prostitute is someone who has sex for money. Doing so just one time would be prostitution. Having sex many times with many men is not prostitution unless done for money. If it is done because someone simply enjoyes it, that is in the vernacular called being "loose" or a "****", not a prostitute. But those words carry connotations that such activity is wrong, which I am not sure you will find guyanbano agreeing with. So, there is not word that guyanbano could give you for what you are asking. Though you and I may think it is wrong, he may think of it as normal behavior.
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NoName55
09-12-2007, 02:18 PM
Christians and westerners (or their values) are not synonymous.

Loose women and promiscuous men are not a Western monopoly (Easterners may do in secret what westerns do in open)

in most cases cohabiting is in form of common law marriage, from what I have seen, it is practised so that in case of break-up neither of the partners go bankrupt at hands of lawyers and inept judges
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