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Science101
09-08-2007, 05:55 AM
Here is a very interesting article you will be interested in reading. It points out how "Islam's golden age of science" is covered in western history textbooks and that "The scientific spirit seemed to die almost completely" toward the end of the 13th century.

At one time Islam and science worked very well together. This proves that science is not a threat to the religion. Yet, something happened. That golden age of science ended. I would like to see it brought back again. But how?

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/ar...slam_print.htm

This story appears in the September 10, 2007 print edition of U.S. News & World Report.

Islam vs. Science
Are Muslim beliefs compatible with critical inquiry? A new study is sparking debate


By Jay Tolson
Posted 9/2/07

Almost every standard world history textbook celebrates Islam's golden age of science. Between the ninth and 13th centuries, Muslim scholars not only translated the great works of Greek medicine, mathematics, and science but also pushed the frontiers of discovery in all of those areas. They improved and named algebra, refined techniques of surgery, advanced the study of optics, and charted the heavens. Then, toward the end of the 13th century, something mysterious happened: The scientific spirit seemed to die almost completely.

Today, most predominantly Muslim countries benefit daily from the fruits of science and technology, and most of the leaders of these nations at least pay lip service to the importance of scientific education. Arab analysts, in recent U.N.-backed reports on the deplorable state of human development in 22 Arab countries, have consistently called for more robust support for "knowledge acquisition" as a crucial step toward catching up with other regions of the world.


Lagging behind.

Yet according to the distinguished Pakistani scientist Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy, chair of the physics department at Quaid-i-Azam University in Islamabad, the news from the Islamic world is not very encouraging. And if his report in the August issue of Physics Today is accurate, it seems that not only science but the critical reasoning that undergirds it is in a precarious state.

Hoodbhoy marshals an array of data to demonstrate that the commitment to real scientific study and research in Muslim nations still lags far behind international averages.

For example, the 57 nations of the Organization of the Islamic Conference can boast only 8.5 scientists per 1,000 population, while the world average is 40.7. Of the lowest national producers of scientific articles in 2003, half are members of the OIC. The OIC countries spend about 0.3 percent of their gross national product on research and development, in contrast to the global average of 2.4 percent.

Some Muslim nations have recently boosted such spending, but throwing money at the problem is no good unless it is used by well-educated professionals who are capable of quality work. And so far, evidence of such quality is lacking. Of the approximately 1,800 universities in OIC nations, only 312 publish journal articles, and no OIC university was included in the top 500 of the "Academic Ranking of World Universities" that was produced by Shanghai Jiao Tong University.

Beyond the data, Hoodbhoy's more unsettling observations bear on the culture and attitudes that prevail in much of the Islamic world, even in those citadels of study that are receiving more funding. To say that intellectual freedom is restricted is, as Hoodbhoy tells it, an understatement. His own university, ranked second among OIC academic institutions, has three mosques on its campus but not one bookstore. Like all other Pakistani universities, it barred a Nobel-winning Pakistani physicist from campus because he belonged to a Muslim sect that the government had deemed heretical.

And that's not all. Films, theater, and music are viewed as impious pursuits by religious zealots, some of whom physically attack students who participate or show an interest in those forms of cultural expression. The atmosphere of intimidation has become so menacing, in Hoodbhoy's view, that students in general have become more timid and passive in the classroom.


Heresy.

Throughout the Muslim world, there is a widespread suspicion that science is heresy—or at least those parts of science that cannot be used, or twisted, to support literalist interpretations of Islamic scriptures. Needless to say, this suspicion has received support from other varieties of religious fundamentalism, including the Christian and Hindu ones.

Some modern scholars make a more serious intellectual argument for the compatibility of science and traditional Islamic thought. And those thinkers believe that ignorance of an Islamically based understanding of science is what really impedes its pursuit in the contemporary Muslim world.

One of the more articulate proponents of that position is the Iranian-born philosopher of science Seyyed Hossein Nasr, a professor of Islamic studies at George Washington University and the author of, among other books, Science and Civilization in Islam. Educated at MIT and Harvard, Nasr has long argued that Islamic science must be understood "not as a chapter in the history of western science, but as an independent way of looking at the work of nature." Nasr insists that traditional Muslim scientists never went the way of Descartes and Newton in reducing the physical world to its material and mechanistic aspects. Nor did Muslims accept that humans can know this world with certainty only through its quantifiable properties. Instead, traditional Muslim scientists held that a full understanding of nature also required seeing its parts as signs of divine purpose. Furthermore, Nasr holds, this approach to science did not die at the end of the 13th century but inspired work in fields such as medicine through the 16th and 17th centuries.

But change did come during the colonial period. Not only did Europeans impose their approach to science on Muslim elites, but many Muslim reformers themselves advocated the adoption of modern science as the best means of catching up with the West. Yet in their zeal, Nasr says, these reformers carelessly tossed aside the rich perspectives of traditional Islamic thought for more streamlined—and often more literalist—approaches to sacred teaching. "This effort didn't go very far," Nasr says, "because instead of being integrated into Islamic culture, the science was merely tacked on."

Nasr's call for an Islamic approach to modern science has no shortage of critics who see it as spurious (and as politically correct) as appeals for Indian science, Chinese science, or even feminist science. But even scholars who acknowledge that culture may have some effect on how people conceive the practice of science say that, finally, certain standards of scientific practice must be upheld, whether the work is being done in Bombay or Beirut.

And the real problem in most of the Islamic world, Hoodbhoy insists, is an "unresolved tension between traditional and modern modes of thought and social behavior." Muslims who embrace uncritical literalism cannot embrace the scientific method, which requires that facts and hypotheses be tested heedless of any established authority. Hoodbhoy sums up the problem eloquently:

"If the scientific method is trashed, no amount of resources or loud declarations of intent to develop science can compensate. In those circumstances, scientific research becomes, at best, a kind of cataloging or 'butterfly-collecting' activity. It cannot be a creative process of genuine inquiry in which bold hypotheses are made and checked."
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Isambard
09-10-2007, 06:02 PM
You'll find every society had a golden age of science at one point or another. From my own studies, when the society shifts toward a more 'moral and religious way of life' is when the it starts to decline and eventually get conquered.

History is funny that way :D
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Md Mashud
09-10-2007, 06:15 PM
I don't think society has shifted towards a moral and religious way of life, rather they went away - hence the decline.

Islam, back then, is so different to today - in terms of how people practice it. People of those days would be ashamed of muslims these days, as a whole.
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ranma1/2
09-11-2007, 03:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I don't think society has shifted towards a moral and religious way of life, rather they went away - hence the decline.

Islam, back then, is so different to today - in terms of how people practice it. People of those days would be ashamed of muslims these days, as a whole.
perhaps, perhaps not for the reasons you may think.
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 03:31 AM
Yep, thats an assumption true, but I do believe the article has somewhat of a flaw - Muslims arn't even close to the level of faith people had back then, which is a shame. With weak faith, comes weak actions, heck muslims are taught that many of lifes problems today should not be pointed at others to be blamed - as you can see happens - but rather themselves for letting it happen. So yes, alot of different ideologoy, but generally, the article seems to be off-tangent in representing the religious correlation to science.
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ranma1/2
09-11-2007, 03:40 AM
so do you think muslims discoveries should be stated

discoveries by muslims.

or

discoveries by humans that just so happen to be muslim?

or

discoveries by humans
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 03:42 AM
A muslim = human, I don't see the point here? If a muslim happened to discover it, so be it. If a Christian or Atheist did, so be it. I don't see the big deal on how its portrayed to be honest. I can see muslims being proud of acheivements by muslims and may say it as discovered by muslims, as we have black history month celebrating acheivements by black people :), I don't see the harm.
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ranma1/2
09-11-2007, 03:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
A muslim = human, I don't see the point here? If a muslim happened to discover it, so be it. If a Christian or Atheist did, so be it. I don't see the big deal on how its portrayed to be honest. I can see muslims being proud of acheivements by muslims and may say it as discovered by muslims, as we have black history month celebrating acheivements by black people :), I don't see the harm.
i personally see it as a form of seperatism. It also seems to be paraded that because they were muslim they made these discoveries.
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 03:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ranma1/2
i personally see it as a form of seperatism. It also seems to be paraded that because they were muslim they made these discoveries.
Meh, then similarly I could see black history month as seperation - but I don't o_O.
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guyabano
09-11-2007, 07:30 AM
I heard never somebody saying, that 'The christian Bill Gates created WINDOWS'

I guess that resumes it all
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جوري
09-11-2007, 10:47 PM
ah it would be true if bill gate declared himself a christian but he doesn't.. Most Muslim scientists claim their achivements in the name of God and Islam, if that is what they want to be called, then that is what should be honored..
peace!
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snakelegs
09-11-2007, 10:57 PM
i found this article real interesting. long, but worth it.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep.../darkness.html
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guyabano
09-12-2007, 07:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
ah it would be true if bill gate declared himself a christian but he doesn't.. Most Muslim scientists claim their achivements in the name of God and Islam, if that is what they want to be called, then that is what should be honored..
peace!
oh shocking ! You're even right. After some research on the web, I found out that Bill Gates is an Atheist, who doesn't believe in the existence of a higher being.
OH DRAMA !! Since Bill Gates earns 225 US Dollar per second, it means that most muslims here on the net having WINDOWS as OS support him, an Atheist.

Now let's see, where are the Atheist Bashers?
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Ummu Sufyaan
09-12-2007, 07:35 AM
no no, you have completly taken it out of proportion. how could we have supported an atheist when we didn't even know he was one.
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guyabano
09-12-2007, 07:37 AM
pfffffffff... ok, so now you know, will you put your copy of Windows now to the trashcan?
I suggest you LINUX !
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Science101
09-12-2007, 09:13 AM
Very interesting comments!

The last part of the article that snakelegs found is encouraging. It seems to express how I feel about science and religion, that science is compatible with religion.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep.../darkness.html

What is needed now is a new growth of Islam completely distinct from any discrete form that Islam has taken in the past. We have to bring out a new growth of Islam from the very texture of our own time, an expression of Islam that will embrace and encompass and absorb and transform the classical tradition of Greece and the European tradition I have been talking about which has now reached to the point where it is once more potentially open to Divine Guidance.
We cannot go back to the Book and the Sunna. This would suggest that Allah's Book is a historical document, something from the distant past and that the Sunna was like an ancient suit of armour. The Qur'an is the uncreated word of Allah, outside space and time. We must rediscover the ayats in the present, reflect on them anew, seek out their light and energy and make them our springboard for the re-establishment of Allah's guidance. The Sunna is the archetypal record of how human perfection, in the person of the Prophet, salla'llahu 'alayhi wa sallam, turned divine guidance into a living reality and how he and his Companions, radiya'llahu 'anhum ajma'in, transformed themselves and their situation. To follow the Sunna, we must discover something of the qualities of the Prophet in ourselves, transform ourselves in the way the Companions did, transform our situation as they did theirs. In other words, we must go forwards to the Book and Sunna, not back to them. The people of our time need Islam freshly cooked, not reheated. We must have the thing itself not an imitation. Nothing else will do.

This is certainly not a task for the faint-hearted. It will require great courage, total commitment and absolute trust in Allah. What is needed is a new generation of Muslims who have jettisoned their pre-conceptions of Islam, new men and women ready and able to face the challenge of this new age, capable of transforming themselves and the society they live in, capable of breaking out of the enslaving enchantment of the modernist perspective with its illusory shadow-show politics and real economic domination, able to grasp the opportunities opened up by the new world view, determined to establish Allah's deen anew in all its simplicity and splendour. It is quite clear that the way is open and that there is no alternative course of action possible and if we do not take it on ourselves there are certainly other people who will.
Of course, science is not a religion. Or is based upon divine revelation. Science only explains how things in the natural world work and requires scientific evidence to explain things. And scientists cannot accept scripture as evidence or else science becomes a new religion, and none of us want that to happen.

If it were true that science (how things work) was incompatible with religion then knowing how anything works would be evil. Therefore it would be heresy to know how to fix a broken toaster, or know how to run electric wires in a home, or how a computer works.

It looks like we are back where we started, knowing that Islam and science can work together. And still have the problem of it not working now. Are there any "new generation of Muslims who have jettisoned their pre-conceptions of Islam, new men and women ready and able to face the challenge of this new age" that can explain what it is that needs to change?
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InToTheRain
09-12-2007, 10:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
I found out that Bill Gates is an Atheist,
Really? :O I always thought man was a Jew. where did you get that from?
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Ummu Sufyaan
09-12-2007, 11:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
pfffffffff... ok, so now you know, will you put your copy of Windows now to the trashcan?
I suggest you LINUX !
yep, sure will. or atleast my brother is in the middle of setting up ubuntu. but way before it was found out that bill gates was an atheist. oh btw, if bill gates works help muslims to propogate islam, im all for it. couldn't care less what the guys religion was.
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Science101
09-12-2007, 11:49 AM
I'm unable to see what the religion of Bill Gates has to do with Islam's golden of science, so I'll assume that this is a demonstration of some kind that helps explain why that golden age came to an end.
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InToTheRain
09-12-2007, 12:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Science101
I'm unable to see what the religion of Bill Gates has to do with Islam's golden of science, so I'll assume that this is a demonstration of some kind that helps explain why that golden age came to an end.
;D :hmm: Sorry for deviating from the original topic (I blame Guyabano :mad:) :( :-[ :hiding:

I agree with Md Mashud. The Zeal to follow Islam has dimished, as a result maybe due to the fruits of the success from the golden age. The people before wanted to contribute to society as much as possible for the benefit of mankind, something which is pleasing to Allah(SWT), and seeking Knowledge has always been emphasised by Islam.

http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/edu/edu_seek.htm
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guyabano
09-12-2007, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
;D :hmm: Sorry for deviating from the original topic (I blame Guyabano :mad:) :( :-[ :hiding:

Nah, I'm not violent, neither out for revenenge. My name is not NoName-Something. :D

But before you put the blame on me, at least, have the decency to go back in the thread, and check, where 'BIll Gates' was mentionned first, so you will notice the relation and why he got named first.
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guyabano
09-12-2007, 02:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maryam11
if bill gates works help muslims to propogate islam, im all for it. couldn't care less what the guys religion was.
I see not, how an atheist would support a religion. All I know he's a lot in charity
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NYCmuslim
09-12-2007, 02:46 PM
The problem is that in a lot of the developing Islamic countries (Pakistan for instance), the people are ritual worshippers of Islam. They sit at home and pray all day and do nothing to impact society. Then we have the radicals who have to oppress and make a big deal about the smallest of things in the name of Islam.

If we look at the Jews, we see that a lot of them are educated and we find them running a lot of the media and educational institutions. As Muslims, we have to understand that a proper education is key to advancing our Ummah and progressing the societies around us whether it be in the USA, UK, Pakistan, Afghanistan, or wherever. The Muslims who are well educated and have knowledge are the ones who will gain respect and will be listened to. Not the extremist nutjobs who rampage the streets saying "Convert to Islam or die!"

Gaining knowledge and propogating Islam intellectually was what made Islam spread so fast back then and it should be the case today. That, in my opinion, is the best way to worship Allah. I pray that Allah gives the Muslim generations of today the complusion to become educated people and advance the societies of the world just as the Quran instructs.

:w:
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Science101
09-13-2007, 03:14 AM
I get off topic myself. No harm done Z.Al-Rashid (and mayam11). Besides, PureAmbrosia is here so there's no telling what will happen next! Hee Hee.. :giggling:

I woke up earlier than usual before work to answer any replies so I was in my morning-mood, anyway. Was getting worried that this thread would digress into science bashing. And not to get off topic again, but I did google the question and from what I found Bill Gates is Agnostic. If that is true then he believes in a higher power. Although, like many, including me, organized religion cannot accurately describe the way we view God/Allah so we do not belong to any single group. Many scientists seem to be that way although there are some very regular church going scientists so that is not the rule.

Maybe this is also a good time to mention that I have no formal college education or a "degree". I'm a self-learner that has been learning from home courses, books, electronic and science kits, discussions with scientists and educators, and the free internet tutorials are the greatest thing that has happened to education in my lifetime. When I was young there were no science classes in school at the level I wanted to learn at, so I had no choice but to find books at the library to keep me busy and talk my parents into buying science supplies they could afford. Resources for kids that want to know more than they normally learn in school is also important.

When I talk about science education I'm not normally thinking expensive colleges that many cannot afford. I'm thinking about the kind of education anyone who enjoys science can obtain off the internet. Of course, going to college has advantages, but that is not necessary to become a respected man or woman of science. Besides, many graduate from expensive colleges with a fancy degree but never make anything of it. So what is primarily required is love for science and dedication.

There are many things that require no college degree. From the looks of things there are now opportunities for Muslims who know how to reconcile modern science and religion. Are no college degrees in that. And this Muslim oriented Health and Science forum is one of the greatest places I can think of work through, don't need an expensive laboratory. Can collaborate with others right here. Might not be much money in reconciling science and religion but people will remember you. Especially if your work then helps begin another Islamic golden age of science.

Like NYCmuslim pointed out, it's a worthy thing to do in a religious sense. I would say it's like being a prophet. Might even find that scientists will follow you but I doubt that many would fully convert to Islam. I would expect that some would incorporate some of your religious views into their agnostic religious views and doing just that is an accomplishment to be very proud of.

And as NYCmuslim also pointed out there is a point where worship becomes damaging to both Islam and the one that becomes too immersed in ritual. I believe it because I have seen it happen to people from other religions. Finding a better balance makes one a peacemaker like Muhammad. Hopefully someone here will take on that honorable calling.

I have to also add that there seems to be enough recognition of Muslim math and science in Western history books and it's been on TV too. Might be better just to bring that golden age back again. Then it will seem like it never really ended.

And hopefully maryam11 can find something to add to the thread. They seem to like the topic, it's moving in the right direction, and I don't want to leave anyone out. All Muslims in this forum have great value to this discussion.

If we focus on a solution then I think we will find one that works. Of course, I can't call myself a Muslim, just someone who sees the good in Islam. I'm happy to leave the glory to Muslims who can do a better job than I can with the religious aspects of this. And if this thread leads to something good in the future then that would be an accomplishment for me to be very proud of.
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alcurad
09-13-2007, 04:01 AM
very nicely said, I agree with all your points.
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جوري
09-13-2007, 04:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by guyabano
oh shocking ! You're even right. After some research on the web, I found out that Bill Gates is an Atheist, who doesn't believe in the existence of a higher being.
OH DRAMA !! Since Bill Gates earns 225 US Dollar per second, it means that most muslims here on the net having WINDOWS as OS support him, an Atheist.

Now let's see, where are the Atheist Bashers?
he also has Asperger's syndrome but that is a story for another day... I hated to fail to meet the expectations of science.. whatever they may have been?..

Now.. I don't know that anyone is an Atheist basher/hater per se.. what it is, .. is that atheists (in general) push the envelope when it comes to expressing or rather not expressing deference to sanctities, thus rendering themselves vulnerable to attacks... I can't assimilate to an atheist what it means to offend since we are not really speaking of something tangible.. but I like to use the example of (mothers) as most decent people don't tolerate ill spoken of their moms and rightfully so.. so now we should exercise the art of transference and with any hope, relate at best, understand in least.. why some lose their temper...

Anyhow, it is Ramadan and I don't wish to wrangle over nonesense... besides that I lost someone dear to me yesterday and I am just so imsad
it all seems to trivial at this point...

so science et al. enjoy your triumphs!

peace!
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Science101
09-13-2007, 05:30 AM
Thanks alcurad! That is very encouraging.

After studying Islam and current world events, including what has been said in this thread, it seems like everything is in place. Only need the right words in the right places. Perhaps that should be what we focus on next.

The parts of the Muslim world that could use this the most is now coming online. I would imagine that many will be looking for solutions. Maybe we should prepare something for them that will also be interesting reading for non-Muslims. Can start off with a brief "science in the Quran" that does not attempt to prove that it was from Allah since that leads to debate and would have scientists requesting empirical scientific evidence so they can test that hypothesis in their laboratory. But it would still be acceptable to describe what is there. Writing something that scientists would find well written, concerning a religious topic, would help show how to separate science from religion. For example, we would never say "Allah said" since we would then have to come up with a test or experiment to prove that Allah said it, which would be impossible unless we could have Allah go to all the laboratories for scientists to see and test. So scientists would stop reading what we wrote after seeing that because it says something we cannot prove. But we can say "According to the Quran" or similar phrase. We then only have to prove that the Quran says what we say it does, which is easy! I know a few non-Muslim scientists (some teachers) who will review it for us to make sure it is "scientific".

Anyway, before I ramble on all night about it, I will just ask what you and others think we could do to help start the next golden age of Islamic science.
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Science101
09-13-2007, 05:42 AM
And I'm sorry to hear about your loss PurestAmbrosia. Just stay strong so they can remain in your heart.

I will, as always, be dreaming of peace, too...
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