9/11 Anniversary Part One

[Showkat]

9/11 Anniversary Part One

Another anniversary
To remember and mourn
Those that died on that day
When the planes crashed
In to the WTC and narrowly missed the Pentagon

A day when terrorism arrived in the USA
And the whole world changed
War on terror was launched
Invasion after invasion
Only halted due to dogged resistance

Iran and Syria survived
Temporarily
As the Neo-Con agenda
Fell apart
In the deserts of Iraq
And the valleys of Afghanistan

A Coalition was formed
To storm
And smoke out the enemy
Brits were there as always
Even though their public said “not in our name”

Much has been done
In the name of those 3000 that died
And more yet to come
All in the name of fighting and killing the new enemy
Al Qaeda and Political Islam

9/11
Became a justification
For almost anything
Many now wonder
Who planned and did it?

Conspiracy theories
Mistrust of the powers that be
Refusal to follow blindly and accept
Has been the result and Bushes legacy

Millions of dollars were destroyed on that day
But billions gained in oil revenues from Iraq
Accountants balance the figures
While American blood fills the rivers
It’s the white/black working class boys and girls
Who fight, are killed and wounded
While the Neo-Cons and businessmen sign new deals
And their kids spend daddies millions

Every anniversary treated like a marketing strategy
To unify and milk anger and grief
Raise another army
To go into the valley of death
Where the enemy awaits and fights in stealth

Over 4000 dead and 25 000 wounded
Americans of course
Iraqi dead in 6 figures
But they don’t matter

Even Saddam never killed this many
But many call him a tyrant and murderer

So how long will these wars continue?
Trillions wasted
As poverty and unemployment at home rises

Hurricane Katrina exposed the soft underbelly
America does not care for its own citizens

Overseas it’s not looking good either
Mujahideen getting stronger
Courage coming with the downing of every plane
Blowing up of every tank and soldier
America no longer the boulder
More like the pebble
To be crushed under the feet of these so called rebels

So what will you do
The American public?
Follow blindly
the leader who fails to inspire
or elect another to continue this butchery?

Whose policies will bring the chicken’s home to roost?
Or select a third brave option
Isolation and non- interference in Muslims affairs

Make your choice wisely
Because the enemy is prepared to fight and die bravely
But you already saw that on 9/11 2001.

[Amadeus85]

My friend was a student in Paris in 2001. After the 9/11 hapenned, most students were talking about this only. The frenchmen felt sorry to USA for the first 2,3 days. Then they started to accues Americans of their middle eastern politicy and blamed everything on american imperialism. While the students from Syria and Lebanon regretted that those planes managed to destroy only one building.

[Md Mashud]

My friend was a student in Paris in 2001. After the 9/11 hapenned, most students were talking about this only. The frenchmen felt sorry to USA for the first 2,3 days. Then they started to accues Americans of their middle eastern politicy and blamed everything on american imperialism. While the students from Syria and Lebanon regretted that those planes managed to destroy only one building.

Is it wrong If i found this funny :S?

[Amadeus85]

Is it wrong If i found this funny :S?

Well, if you find it funny, so it is only your problem. I dont see anything funny in this. Actually i think that its sad and disgusting.

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[The_Prince]

My friend was a student in Paris in 2001. After the 9/11 hapenned, most students were talking about this only. The frenchmen felt sorry to USA for the first 2,3 days. Then they started to accues Americans of their middle eastern politicy and blamed everything on american imperialism. While the students from Syria and Lebanon regretted that those planes managed to destroy only one building.

well i dont know if your trying to imply that mid-east policy had nothing to do with it?

ex-CIA members and other goverment officials have admited that yes mid-east policy did restult in this attack, it doesnt make it right though, but the fact is foreign policy in mid-east is one main factor.

surely you wont say this attack came out of no where because they felt like attacking american 'democracy' which would indeed be a load of how do i say it? BS

bin laden, zawahiri, the hijackers themselves stated the reasons for attacking, and you wont find them ever saying we did it because you have a different culture and allow jerry springer. nay! rather you will see one of the main reasons is: MID-EAST POLICY! surely your not going to ignore your enemies reasons for attacking you now are you? but sadly fox news and bush has brainwashed ppl into believing anyone who dares attack the USA are simple crazy ppl who hate western culture, which is abit silly because what you do in a war is examine your enemies reasons for attacking.

and this doesnt mean the attacks are okay, but it is better if ppl at least wake up and look at the reasons instead of shouting NO NO THEYRE JUST CRAZY AND HATE OUR FREEDOM!!!! which as i said is BS and which bin laden and his fellow al-qaeda members never said was a reason!

[The_Prince]

Well, if you find it funny, so it is only your problem. I dont see anything funny in this. Actually i think that its sad and disgusting.

as disgusting as americans who also said we should nuke the entire mid-east? or is that okay and just natural "anger' ??????:nervous:

[Amadeus85]

Yes i know its all about politics. USA placed their troops in Saudi Arabia and supported Israel, so the penalty is to destroy a building in New York with innocent people. Spain had troops in Iraq , so mujaheedins decided that the best penalty is to put a bomb in train full of people (maybe majority of them were against the war even). England had troops in Iraq, so few misguised muslims decided to teach them what politicy they should follow and they detonated bombs in a busses full of people. But now think, does politicy of any country justify such terror attacks? And one thing more, does really the anniversary of that tragedy in New York must be a reason to bash America over and over.

[Amadeus85]

as disgusting as americans who also said we should nuke the entire mid-east? or is that okay and just natural "anger' ??????:nervous:

I dont know any American who said that the entire Middle East should be nuked, and even if i knew one, i wouldnt say that its funny. I would rather send him to a doc.

[The_Prince]

Yes i know its all about politics. USA placed their troops in Saudi Arabia and supported Israel, so the penalty is to destroy a building in New York with innocent people. Spain had troops in Iraq , so mujaheedins decided that the best penalty is to put a bomb in train full of people (maybe majority of them were against the war even). England had troops in Iraq, so few misguised muslims decided to teach them what politicy they should follow and they detonated bombs in a busses full of people. But now think, does politicy of any country justify such terror attacks? And one thing more, does really the anniversary of that tragedy in New York must be a reason to bash America over and over.

i aint bashing, notice i said it doesnt make it right! but the fact is whether right or wrong, there is a reason, and that is mid-east policy, as for you bringing up spain that has nothing to do with sep 11. see this is the problem with you, when we bring up real logical facts that sep 11 was a result of bad mid-east policy which is what the attackers said themselves, u then start bringing up 20 different issues, ah yesss spain, ahhhhhh yes bali, ahhhhhh yes etc etc.

this shows you have lost the plot and have blindly followed bush and fox news' whitewashing propaganda, they try to link all these events togethor when each one has its own context. for starters spain wasnt done by al-qaeda, it was done by a few crazy angry men, with no links to al-qaeda but interestingly had links to the spanish version of the fbi!

as for bali, it was again had nothing to do with al-qaeda but by indonesians who were disgusted by foreigners comming to their country and taking part in fornication, alcohol consumption and basically something alien to their society.....

so each event is DIFFERENT, you trying to connect them only makes things worst and makes us go further away from why 9-11 happened.

let us PLEASE STICK TO 9-11, we have the attackers reasons for why they did it, so let us go from there, okay we know why they did it........how do we stop another such 9-11 to happen...........

[Amadeus85]

i aint bashing, notice i said it doesnt make it right! but the fact is whether right or wrong, there is a reason, and that is mid-east policy, as for you bringing up spain that has nothing to do with sep 11. see this is the problem with you, when we bring up real logical facts that sep 11 was a result of bad mid-east policy which is what the attackers said themselves, u then start bringing up 20 different issues, ah yesss spain, ahhhhhh yes bali, ahhhhhh yes etc etc.

this shows you have lost the plot and have blindly followed bush and fox news' whitewashing propaganda, they try to link all these events togethor when each one has its own context. for starters spain wasnt done by al-qaeda, it was done by a few crazy angry men, with no links to al-qaeda but interestingly had links to the spanish version of the fbi!

as for bali, it was again had nothing to do with al-qaeda but by indonesians who were disgusted by foreigners comming to their country and taking part in fornication, alcohol consumption and basically something alien to their society.....

so each event is DIFFERENT, you trying to connect them only makes things worst and makes us go further away from why 9-11 happened.

let us PLEASE STICK TO 9-11, we have the attackers reasons for why they did it, so let us go from there, okay we know why they did it........how do we stop another such 9-11 to happen...........

Prince i didnt mention Bali in my posts. :). Well, i can agree with you. You speak quite reasonable. And i mentioned Spain and London, not in relation with 9/11 but to show you that not only americans were punished for their mideast politicy. And about that Bali, Prince, just think what would happen if suddenly europeans began to murder all those who came to Europe with things alien to OUR society. Ok ok i know that you dont justify them, but in some issues its no use to trying understand the motives.

[The_Prince]

Prince i didnt mention Bali in my posts. :). Well, i can agree with you. You speak quite reasonable. And i mentioned Spain and London, not in relation with 9/11 but to show you that not only americans were punished for their mideast politicy. And about that Bali, Prince, just think what would happen if suddenly europeans began to murder all those who came to Europe with things alien to OUR society. Ok ok i know that you dont justify them, but in some issues its no use to trying understand the motives.

i know you didnt mention bali, but it will come up later, first spain, then bali, then etc etc.

as for the bali guy, yes that is crazy, and the guy was crazy because he is a living contradiction, the aussies may have been doing things which were alien to his culture, but his reaction was even more alien to indonesian culture than what the aussies were doing!!!!!!!!!!

yes some issues dont need to go understand their motive, as for 9-11 we need to understand it because 9-11 is unique and stands on its own compared to the rest, and many mistakes have occured because of bad reaction to 9-11, like bush's plan on how to stop more 9-11's actually will make more 9-11's! once we finally understand why it happened we can then properly counter it, but when we counter it using the wrong methods and ways this only leads to more problems and mis-understandings which will not stop it all.

as they say to beat your enemy you must know your enemy, but today if we ever examine or study bin laden or his reasons ppl will label you as a traitor, terror sympathizer, etc etc which is all false, examining your enemy and seeing their reasons does not mean endorsement! it is called being logical!

and again this doesnt mean 9-11 was okay and right because of their reasons!

[Amadeus85]

let us PLEASE STICK TO 9-11, we have the attackers reasons for why they did it, so let us go from there, okay we know why they did it........how do we stop another such 9-11 to happen...........

Well, follwing this thinking, there will be always people who wont like american politics. Muslims, Chinese, Russians, French. I can guess that your proposition is to leave Israel alone by USA. But if we assume that Israel is surrounded by 300 millions hostile Arabs, it will lead to destruction of that state. Palestinians are supported by 1,5 billion muslims, so its fair that Israel has just one but big supporter, isnt it?

[nevesirth]

There is an Arabic proverb that says "she accused me of having her malady, then snuck away." Besides, terrorism can be commendable and it can be reprehensible. Terrifying an innocent person and terrorizing him is objectionable and unjust, also unjustly terrorizing people is not right.

Whereas, terrorizing oppressors and criminals and thieves and robbers is necessary for the safety of people and for the protection of their property. There is no doubt in this. Every state and every civilization and culture has to resort to terrorism under certain circumstances for the purpose of abolishing tyranny and corruption. Every country in the world has its own security system and its own security forces, its own police and its own army. They are all designed to terrorize whoever even contemplates to attack that country or its citizens

Ponder this carefully

words of Abu Abdullah

[The_Prince]

Well, follwing this thinking, there will be always people who wont like american politics. Muslims, Chinese, Russians, French. I can guess that your proposition is to leave Israel alone by USA. But if we assume that Israel is surrounded by 300 millions hostile Arabs, it will lead to destruction of that state. Palestinians are supported by 1,5 billion muslims, so its fair that Israel has just one but big supporter, isnt it?

well see aaron israel has nothing to do with the USA, and this is the problem which you summed up very well. say arabs one day invaded and destroyed israel, this would not in any way hurt america or americans. and this is the problem with US goverment they put their noses in business that just isnt theirs! many americans themselves say lets not meddle in others business and affairs!

whats ironic is that america giving so much protection and money to israel is causing more problems and defense worries for the USA!

[wilberhum]

well see aaron israel has nothing to do with the USA, and this is the problem which you summed up very well. say arabs one day invaded and destroyed israel, this would not in any way hurt america or americans. and this is the problem with US goverment they put their noses in business that just isnt theirs! many americans themselves say lets not meddle in others business and affairs!

whats ironic is that america giving so much protection and money to israel is causing more problems and defense worries for the USA!

I wonder if the US took your attitude in WWII if you would be speaking German?

[north_malaysian]

I dont know any American who said that the entire Middle East should be nuked, and even if i knew one, i wouldnt say that its funny. I would rather send him to a doc.

several hours after the tragedy happened I went chatting online on mirc #newyork.

There was one guy keep saying "Nuke Mecca! Nuke Mecca!"... but most of the chatters were asking for people in new york, how did they feel. There were several Muslims too, saying that Islam has nothing to do with this. During that time, nobody knew who did that so some people made speculations that it was done by Japanese (because of Kamikaze style) or Chinese.

[Science101]

I wonder if the US took your attitude in WWII if you would be speaking German?

I spent some time studying why people would follow the Nazis. One thing that is obvious from Hitler's speeches, that sound more like church sermons, is that he was a Christian megalomaniac spreading his twisted ideology worldwide. Bin Laden is trying to do the same thing.

Since Muslims are non-Christian, and certainly not Aryans, they would have had to be gassed then incinerated in a concentration camp. No Muslims who are here would have been born because their parents would have followed the Jews to their death. This forum would not even exist if the US did nothing.

[nevesirth]

I spent some time studying why people would follow the Nazis. One thing that is obvious from Hitler's speeches, that sound more like church sermons, is that he was a Christian megalomaniac spreading his twisted ideology worldwide. Bin Laden is trying to do the same thing.

Since Muslims are non-Christian, and certainly not Aryans, they would have had to be gassed then incinerated in a concentration camp. No Muslims who are here would have been born because their parents would have followed the Jews to their death. This forum would not even exist if the US did nothing.

hitler and ibn laden have nothing in common, u might have been decieved by the media trying to paint him as a monster or a crazy extremist which is far from the truth

heres a statement from ibn laden

The leaders in America and in other countries as well have fallen victim to Jewish Zionist blackmail. They have mobilized their people against Islam and against Muslims. These are portrayed in such a manner as to drive people to rally against them. The truth is that the whole Muslim world is the victim of international terrorism, engineered by America at the United Nations. We are a nation whose sacred symbols have been looted and whose wealth and resources have been plundered. It is normal for us to react against the forces that invade our land and occupy it ...

does that sound like something hitler will say? i guess not


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...interview.html

[nevesirth]

the u.s has succeeded in linkig a group of unrelated activities and also assigning of characteristics at random to individuals in order to justify their actions or reasons for carrying out these actions.

when the u.s presdent viewed the latest tape from ibn laden, all he kept emphasising was that iraq was mentioned many times in the video, so in order to combat and defeat al qaida, iraq has to be left as a combat zone to exterminate the 'terrorists'. that was very unintelligent, he cudnt see beyond the iraq issue and aknowledge the real motive of the tape. most media also edited the version of the tape they aired to suit their own intentions and make a point that was not part of the intentions of the speaker

making iraq seem so important just because it was mentioned quite a number of times in the video is like saying the subject of this my post is 'was' simply because i made use of the word quite a number of times.

[The_Prince]

I wonder if the US took your attitude in WWII if you would be speaking German?

are you comparing arabs with nazis? oh my my, are you saying arabs as bad as nazis which is why usa supports israel? hmmmmmmmm if arabs are like nazis then why does usa send 20 billion to saudia, 10 billion to egypt etc etc etc........so your analogy fails very badly.

[Science101]

hitler and ibn laden have nothing in common, u might have been decieved by the media trying to paint him as a monster or a crazy extremist which is far from the truth

Same scapegoats. Same religion fueled bigotry.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

And what happened when president Bush offered to help the Palestinians form their own productive state? Their leaders refused it!

Don't kid yourself. This is what the USA is fighting against:

http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/

If you want to try justifying that, then you joined the ranks of the enemy.

[جوري]

http://www.911truth.org/

[جوري]

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

110+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
200+ Engineers and Architects
New Section! 50+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
150+ Professors Question 9/11
190+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members

Hope everyone is entitled to their opinion without the usual barrage of tasteless comments!

[nevesirth]

Same scapegoats. Same religion fueled bigotry.

http://www.hitler.org/speeches/

And what happened when president Bush offered to help the Palestinians form their own productive state? Their leaders refused it!

Don't kid yourself. This is what the USA is fighting against:

http://nymag.com/images/news/02/03/9...days10_200.jpg
http://nymag.com/news/articles/wtc/gallery/

If you want to try justifying that, then you joined the ranks of the enemy.

seems you'll rather justify this:



Civilian Death Toll In Iraq Exceeds 100,000

New Scientist | October 29 2004

The invasion of Iraq in March 2003 by coalition forces has lead to the death of at least 100,000 civilians, reveals the first scientific study to examine the issue.

The majority of these deaths, which are in addition those normally expected from natural causes, illness and accidents, have been among women and children, finds the study, released early by The Lancet on Thursday.

The most common cause of death is as a direct result of violence, mostly caused by coalition air strikes, reveals the study of almost 1000 households scattered across Iraq. And the risk of violent death just after the invasion was 58 times greater than before the war. The overall risk of death was 1.5 times more after the invasion than before.

The figure of 100,000 is based on "conservative assumptions", notes Les Roberts at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Baltimore, US, who led the study.

That estimate excludes Falluja, a hotspot for violence. If the data from this town is included, the study points to about 200,000 excess deaths since the outbreak of war.

Public health

"These findings raise questions for those far removed from Iraq - in the governments of the countries responsible for launching a pre-emptive war," writes Richard Horton, the editor of The Lancet in a commentary accompanying the paper.

"In planning this war, the coalition forces - especially those of the US and UK - must have considered the likely effects of their actions for civilians," he writes.

He argues that, from a public health perspective, whatever "planning did take place was grievously in error".

"The invasion of Iraq, the displacement of a cruel dictator, and the attempt to impose a liberal democracy by force have, by themselves, been insufficient to bring peace and security to the civilian population. Democratic imperialism has led to more deaths, not fewer," he asserts.

He also praises the "courageous team of scientists" for their efforts, and notes the study's limitations.

GPS sampling

The team of US and Iraqi scientists recorded mortality during the 15 months before the invasion and the 18 months afterwards. They carried out the survey of 988 Iraqi households in 33 different areas across Iraq in September 2004.

Using a GPS (global positioning system) unit, the interviewers randomly selected towns within governates. They then visited the nearest 30 houses to the GPS point randomly selected.

Families living under one roof were asked about deaths in their household before and after the war. "Confirmation was sought to ensure that a large fraction of the reported deaths were not fabrications," write the team. The interviewers did ask for death certificates, but only in two cases for each cluster of houses. This was because of concerns that implying the families were lying could trigger violence.

But the team believes that lying about deaths is unlikely and, if anything, "it is possible that deaths were not reported" because families might want to conceal them.

Horton acknowledges the potential for recall bias among those interviewed and also the relatively small sample size. "The research was completed under the most testing of circumstances - an ongoing war. And therefore certain limitations were inevitable and need to be acknowledged right away," he says.

But he also calls for an "urgent political and military response".


who shares more in common with hitler now? speaking of figures

http://prisonplanet.com/articles/oct...4deathtoll.htm

[Science101]

BIN LADEN ADMITS 9/11 RESPONSIBILITY, WARNS OF MORE ATTACKS

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/..._10-29-04.html

[wilberhum]

So the invasion of Iraq justifies 9/11?

[جوري]

Top Bin Laden Expert: The Tapes are Fakes
Kevin Barrett

As a PhD in Islamic and Arabic Studies, I hate to say this, but I’ll say it anyway. The events of 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam. The war on terror itself is as phony as the latest “Bin Laden tape.” (Guardian 04)

It’s tough to admit because I know on which side my bread is buttered - and dropping Islam from the 9/11 equation is like dropping my bread butter-side-down. The myth that 9/11 had something to do with has poured millions into Arabic and Islamic studies. I finished my PhD in 2005, so all I have to do is keep my eyes in my pocket and my nose to the ground, parrot the party line, and I’ll be on the fast track to tenure.

The trouble is, it’s all based on a big lie. Take the recent “Bin Laden tape,” - please! That voice was no more Bin Laden than it was my late Aunt Corinne from Peoria. I recently helped translate a previously unknown Bin Laden tape, a real one from the early 90’s, back when he was still alive. I know the guy’s flowery religious rhetoric. The recent tape certainly wasn’t him.

The top American Bin Laden expert agrees. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies Department, has just finished a book of translations of Bin Laden’s speeches. He says the recent tape is a fake and that Bin Laden has been dead for years. (ABC 2004).

Ersatz Bin Laden tapes “verified” by the CIA are nothing new. Every Bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus. The last we heard from the real Bin Laden were the following words recorded by Pakistani journalists: “I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation . . . I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks on the United States . . . I had no knowledge of these attacks. . .” (Wiki 2004)

Then, on December 13, 2001, as George Bush was whining about the “outrageous conspiracy theories” that were spreading like wildfire, the first and shoddiest of the “Bin Laden Speaks from the Grave” tapes appeared. The video’s sound and picture quality were horrible. It showed a big guy with a black beard, doing a passable imitation of Bin Laden’s voice, claiming foreknowledge, if not responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and chortling over their success. The trouble was, the big guy was clearly not Bin Laden. He was at least 40 or 50 pounds heavier and his facial features were obviously different. (911Res 2005)

The “Fatty Bin Laden tape” was widely ridiculed and I have yet to meet an informed observer who considers it authentic. (If you haven’t figured this out yet, go back and look at the images from the tape and compare them to other images of Bin Laden.) But the media let the fraud pass without asking the hard questions. Why was the US government waving this blatantly fake “confession” video in our faces?

Perhaps due to the widespread hilarity evoked by Fatty Bin Laden, the next Ousama-from-beyond-the-grave message had no images: It was an audio tape delivered to al-Jazeera in the fall of 2002. The CIA verified it as “authentic,” but ended up with egg on its face when the world’s leading voice identification experts at IDIAP in Switzerland reported that “the message was recorded by an impostor.” (Guardian 2002)

Every Bin Laden message since then has been equally phony. They are released at moments when the Bush regime needs a boost - and the American (mainstream) media go along with the fraud. Remember the bogus Bin Laden tape that made headlines right before the 2004 elections? If you didn’t figure out that it was a CIA-produced commercial for George Bush, I have some great bridges to sell you. Walter Cronkite, bless his heart, opined that Karl Rove was behind that tape. (CNN ) But the rest of the media just kept pretending that the Emperor was clothed.

And the fraud continues. Last week’s [need a date if you don’t want this article to age prematurely] Bin Laden tape has been ridiculed by America’s top Bin Laden expert, yet the US media gamely held its tattered fig leaf over the Emperor’s loins. Professor Lawrence believes that the tape was designed to distract world opinion from the horrific massacre of Pakistani civilians by an errant CIA drone. But it may have another, more sinister purpose: To prepare public opinion for another false-flag 9/11-style attack designed to trigger a US-Israel nuclear attack on Iran. (AC 2005)

As our top Bin Laden expert Professor Lawrence says, the real Bin Laden, who insisted that he had nothing to do with 9/11, has been dead since 2001. The fake messages have been fabricated by al-CIA-duh to support the Bush regime and its phony “war on terror.” It is time for Americans to rise up against the masters of synthetic terror who have been looting the US taxpayer, torching the Constitution, demolishing the economy, and threatening a nuclear Armageddon.

About the author

Dr Barrett holds a PhD in Arabic, with a focus on Islamic studies, from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. He is cofounder of the Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth: http://mujca.com

References

(Guardian 04) The Making of the Terror Myth. The Guardian, Oct 10 2004.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/...327904,00.html

(ABC 04) A. Rupinta. Duke Professor Sceptical of Bin Laden Tape. ABC News, Jan. 19, 2006.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?%2...=local=3828678

(Wiki 2004) Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 Attacks. Wikipedia, 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respons...,_2001_attacks

(911Res 2005) “Fatty” bin Laden. 911 Research. 2005.

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/...adinvideo.html

(Guardian 2002) B. Whittaker. Swiss Scientists 95% Sure that Bin Laden Recording Was a Fake. The Guardian, Jan 30, 2002.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/st...851112,00.html

(CNN 2004) Larry King Live. Bin Laden Releases New Videotape. CNN. Oct 24, 2004.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/lkl.01.html

Referred to in WRH. [hot link “WRH” to following URL:]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bi..._cronkite.html

(AC 2005) Deep Background. American Conservative. Aug. 1, 2005.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html

discussed in Antiwar.com [hot link to “Antiwar.com” to following URL.]

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6734

[nevesirth]

So the invasion of Iraq justifies 9/11?

which happened first?

[wilberhum]

which happened first?

Your powers of observation are obvious. :D

[wilberhum]

For some real proof, lets consult Craig Winn or Daniel Pipes.

I think they have a handle on the "Truth".

[nevesirth]

Top Bin Laden Expert: The Tapes are Fakes
Kevin Barrett

As a PhD in Islamic and Arabic Studies, I hate to say this, but I’ll say it anyway. The events of 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam. The war on terror itself is as phony as the latest “Bin Laden tape.” (Guardian 04)

It’s tough to admit because I know on which side my bread is buttered - and dropping Islam from the 9/11 equation is like dropping my bread butter-side-down. The myth that 9/11 had something to do with has poured millions into Arabic and Islamic studies. I finished my PhD in 2005, so all I have to do is keep my eyes in my pocket and my nose to the ground, parrot the party line, and I’ll be on the fast track to tenure.

The trouble is, it’s all based on a big lie. Take the recent “Bin Laden tape,” - please! That voice was no more Bin Laden than it was my late Aunt Corinne from Peoria. I recently helped translate a previously unknown Bin Laden tape, a real one from the early 90’s, back when he was still alive. I know the guy’s flowery religious rhetoric. The recent tape certainly wasn’t him.

The top American Bin Laden expert agrees. Professor Bruce Lawrence, head of Duke University’s Religious Studies Department, has just finished a book of translations of Bin Laden’s speeches. He says the recent tape is a fake and that Bin Laden has been dead for years. (ABC 2004).

Ersatz Bin Laden tapes “verified” by the CIA are nothing new. Every Bin Laden statement since 2001 has been blatantly bogus. The last we heard from the real Bin Laden were the following words recorded by Pakistani journalists: “I stress that I have not carried out this act, which appears to have been carried out by individuals with their own motivation . . . I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks on the United States . . . I had no knowledge of these attacks. . .” (Wiki 2004)

Then, on December 13, 2001, as George Bush was whining about the “outrageous conspiracy theories” that were spreading like wildfire, the first and shoddiest of the “Bin Laden Speaks from the Grave” tapes appeared. The video’s sound and picture quality were horrible. It showed a big guy with a black beard, doing a passable imitation of Bin Laden’s voice, claiming foreknowledge, if not responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and chortling over their success. The trouble was, the big guy was clearly not Bin Laden. He was at least 40 or 50 pounds heavier and his facial features were obviously different. (911Res 2005)

The “Fatty Bin Laden tape” was widely ridiculed and I have yet to meet an informed observer who considers it authentic. (If you haven’t figured this out yet, go back and look at the images from the tape and compare them to other images of Bin Laden.) But the media let the fraud pass without asking the hard questions. Why was the US government waving this blatantly fake “confession” video in our faces?

Perhaps due to the widespread hilarity evoked by Fatty Bin Laden, the next Ousama-from-beyond-the-grave message had no images: It was an audio tape delivered to al-Jazeera in the fall of 2002. The CIA verified it as “authentic,” but ended up with egg on its face when the world’s leading voice identification experts at IDIAP in Switzerland reported that “the message was recorded by an impostor.” (Guardian 2002)

Every Bin Laden message since then has been equally phony. They are released at moments when the Bush regime needs a boost - and the American (mainstream) media go along with the fraud. Remember the bogus Bin Laden tape that made headlines right before the 2004 elections? If you didn’t figure out that it was a CIA-produced commercial for George Bush, I have some great bridges to sell you. Walter Cronkite, bless his heart, opined that Karl Rove was behind that tape. (CNN ) But the rest of the media just kept pretending that the Emperor was clothed.

And the fraud continues. Last week’s [need a date if you don’t want this article to age prematurely] Bin Laden tape has been ridiculed by America’s top Bin Laden expert, yet the US media gamely held its tattered fig leaf over the Emperor’s loins. Professor Lawrence believes that the tape was designed to distract world opinion from the horrific massacre of Pakistani civilians by an errant CIA drone. But it may have another, more sinister purpose: To prepare public opinion for another false-flag 9/11-style attack designed to trigger a US-Israel nuclear attack on Iran. (AC 2005)

As our top Bin Laden expert Professor Lawrence says, the real Bin Laden, who insisted that he had nothing to do with 9/11, has been dead since 2001. The fake messages have been fabricated by al-CIA-duh to support the Bush regime and its phony “war on terror.” It is time for Americans to rise up against the masters of synthetic terror who have been looting the US taxpayer, torching the Constitution, demolishing the economy, and threatening a nuclear Armageddon.

About the author

Dr Barrett holds a PhD in Arabic, with a focus on Islamic studies, from the University of Wisconsin at Madison. He is cofounder of the Muslim-Christian-Jewish Alliance for 9/11 Truth: http://mujca.com

References

(Guardian 04) The Making of the Terror Myth. The Guardian, Oct 10 2004.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/...327904,00.html

(ABC 04) A. Rupinta. Duke Professor Sceptical of Bin Laden Tape. ABC News, Jan. 19, 2006.

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?%2...=local=3828678

(Wiki 2004) Responsibility for the September 11, 2001 Attacks. Wikipedia, 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respons...,_2001_attacks

(911Res 2005) “Fatty” bin Laden. 911 Research. 2005.

http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/...adinvideo.html

(Guardian 2002) B. Whittaker. Swiss Scientists 95% Sure that Bin Laden Recording Was a Fake. The Guardian, Jan 30, 2002.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/st...851112,00.html

(CNN 2004) Larry King Live. Bin Laden Releases New Videotape. CNN. Oct 24, 2004.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP...29/lkl.01.html

Referred to in WRH. [hot link “WRH” to following URL:]

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/bi..._cronkite.html

(AC 2005) Deep Background. American Conservative. Aug. 1, 2005.

http://www.amconmag.com/2005_08_01/article3.html

discussed in Antiwar.com [hot link to “Antiwar.com” to following URL.]

http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=6734

is ayman al zawahiri also dead? or he never existed in the first place. Kevin Barrett, thats if hes not also a figment of someones mischievious imagination seems nothing more than a normal american seeking his fair share of 15 mins of fame

[جوري]

then you'll enjoy this as much as I did

:w:

[wilberhum]

then you'll enjoy this as much as I did

:w:

Isn't it amazing what can be done with $120.00 worth of software. :confused:

It really works on people who will believe anything that suites there bias. :thumbs_do

[جوري]

Isn't it amazing what can be done with $120.00 worth of software. :confused:

It really works on people who will believe anything that suites there bias. :thumbs_do

are you speaking of yourself here? or the tons of educated
Senior Military , Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials, Engineers and Architects, Pilots and Aviation Professionals, Professors, Survivors and Family Members? Only a merry andrew will pass of facts as bias. Anyhow this has been discussed here Ad nauseam , I doubt anyone is interested in what you have to say.. or is even listening... I guarantee people have done their research and have a satisfactory answer one way or the other.. chill ole man...learn some breathing and relaxing exercises..might help you think of new things to write when deluged with articles that express a different opinion!

taaaaa

[Science101]

Top Bin Laden Expert: The Tapes are Fakes
Kevin Barrett

As a PhD in Islamic and Arabic Studies, I hate to say this, but I’ll say it anyway. The events of 9/11 had nothing to do with Islam. The war on terror itself is as phony as the latest “Bin Laden tape.” (Guardian 04)....

9/11/2001 was not the first attack on the WTC. It was only, the attack that succeeded in bringing them down.

We know who was out to do this, who was thrilled at their success. Don't need excuses from those with a motive to rewrite world history.

[wilberhum]

are you speaking of yourself here? or the tons of educated
Senior Military , Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials, Engineers and Architects, Pilots and Aviation Professionals, Professors, Survivors and Family Members? Only a merry andrew will pass of facts as bias. Anyhow this has been discussed here Ad nauseam , I doubt anyone is interested in what you have to say.. or is even listening... I guarantee people have done their research and have a satisfactory answer one way or the other.. chill ole man...learn some breathing and relaxing exercises..might help you think of new things to write when deluged with articles that express a different opinion!

taaaaa

I speak for myself.
You can speak for the tons of educated. After all no one exceeds your brilliance.
I mean you can do better on a test than anyone else ever has.

Us average folk just have to use our average intelligence to spot a conspiracy theory.
And really it isn’t that tough. You just have to take off your “Faith Blinders”. :confused:

[جوري]

9/11/2001 was not the first attack on the WTC. It was only, the attack that succeeded in bringing them down.

We know who was out to do this, who was thrilled at their success. Don't need excuses from those with a motive to rewrite world history.

If you don't need excuses, forgive me, why are you partaking in this topic? This is exclusive for folks who seek some systematic investigation to establish facts! You can join the left cozened and be satisfied.. you will not impose 'your truth' on others, any more than they will on you.. the rest come ready equipped with an analytical mind as was bestowed you... I am sure everyone can reach the correct conclusion after proper consideration!

peace!

[جوري]

I speak for myself

you are indeed moderate to inferior in quality

You can speak for the tons of educated.

I believe they have spoken for themselves ( you may follow any of the thousands of links).. then if you have grievances I suggest you direct it to them individually and they come by the thousand, you'll have your work ahead of you.. you shouldn't really concern yourself with just one, I see it as a futile effort if it upsets you that much!

[wilberhum]

If you don't need excuses, forgive me, why are you partaking in this topic? This is exclusive for folks who seek some systematic investigation to establish facts! You can join the left cozened and be satisfied.. you will not impose 'your truth' on others, any more than they will on you.. the rest come ready equipped with an analytical mind as was bestowed you... I am sure everyone can reach the correct conclusion after proper consideration!

peace!

Science101,
Get your act together. Mind your own business.
No one, I mean no one has the right to express an opinion other than "god's food". :rolleyes:

[جوري]

Shouldn't you quote sci 101 if you wish to speak of me circuitously? how nutty are you? over three thousand posts and oh so reduced to silence.. wow, they must have a muzzle around your mouth er fingers, to let you get away with so little?!

[Science101]

Science101,
Get your act together. Mind your own business.
No one, I mean no one has the right to express an opinion other than "god's food". :rolleyes:

Hee Hee :D

It is sad though, how easily even educated people fall for the conspiracy theories when it serves their purpose. Instead of hard evidence like the passports that were found on the suicide pilots and their earlier activities, the bold statements of those who previously tried to down the towers, they take the opinion of people with no credible evidence at all. imsad

[wilberhum]

Shouldn't you quote sci 101 if you wish to speak of me circuitously? how nutty are you? over three thousand posts and oh so reduced to silence.. wow, they must have a muzzle around your mouth er fingers, to let you get away with so little?!

I was just trying to help help him. :D
I'm as nutty as a fruit cake but I'm egotistical self praising ego maniac. :rolleyes:
Reduced to silence? When? Like now? DA :-\

Got to go to bed. Will answer your next personal assault tomorrow. :p

[جوري]

Instead of hard evidence like the passports that were found on the suicide pilots and their earlier activties

to the contrary, that was my favorite part.. I even had it on photo.. will try to find it in my archives because it was a gem.. was really cute how his passport survived the plane crash, the blazing inferno the collapse of the two towers to mere ashes, and of all the other personal identites and passports, there was the culprit's passport survived unscathed...;D
must have been a miracle for all ye of little faith

[Science101]

A truck bomb explodes in the parking garage of the World Trade Center (WTC) killing six and injuring hundreds. Investigators discover the suspects have links to a network of Islamic extremists. Several people eventually convicted in the bombing are linked to the Office of Service's Al Kifah Center in Brooklyn; four of these men are connected to Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. Rahman, a blind Egyptian cleric who was the spiritual leader of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad, is later convicted of conspiracy for his involvement in a plot to blow up New York City landmarks. He is sentenced to life in prison.

Investigators charge Ramzi Yousef as the mastermind behind the WTC bombing and begin a worldwide manhunt. They discover immigration officials had already detained Ahmed Ajaj, a Yousef associate, when he entered the U.S. carrying terrorist training manuals.
Osama bin Laden's name surfaces during the 1993 WTC investigation as a financier of the Office of Services. His name is also found on a list of individuals who was called from a safe house used by the conspirators. During the WTC bombing trial, bin Laden's name appears on a list of potential unindicted co-conspirators, but Al Qaeda is never mentioned.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl.../etc/cron.html

[جوري]

blah blah blah.. what does this have to do with

CNN: 'Hijacker' Visa Found in Flight 93 Wreckage

Paul Joseph Watson for Alex Jones' Prison Planet | August 23 2004

CNN is reporting that 9/11 hijacker Ziad Jarrah's visa was found in the remains of Flight 93 which went down in Shanksville, Pennsylvania.

Even if we are to entertain the notion that this piece of paper supposedly in the pocket of the suicide pilot who survived a crash which left aircraft parts strewn eight miles apart, do the two photographs shown above even represent the same person?

Ziad Jarrah's family provided evidence days after 9/11 that Jarrah wasn't even onboard Flight 93 and that if he was, it was only as a passenger who was just as much of a victim as the rest of the people on the plane.

The FBI has been evasive on whether or not other hijacker's passports were found in the wreckage of the World Trade Center but the 9/11 commission has now presented photographs which they say show the charred paper visa.

A few days after the attack, several newspapers reported that a paper passport had been found in the ruins of the WTC.

A month ago new photos were released which apparently showed Flight 77 hijackers Nawaq Alhamzi and Salem Alhamzi undergoing security screening at Washington's Dulles International airport.

This is of course to reinforce the official story of 9/11 which is crumbling under the weight of 9/11 research and activism. At least a third of the WTC victim's bodies were vaporized and many of the victims of the Pentagon incident were burned beyond recognition. And yet visas and paper passports which identify the purpotrators and back up the official version of events miraculously survive explosions and fires that we are told melted steel buildings.

The government's desperation to prove the involvement of the named hijackers contrasts with evidence that several of them are still alive, and even Mohammed Atta's father still insists he talks to his son on a regular basis

I mean honestly what do you expect? oh oh for your PBS article to show me the light.. thanks

[جوري]

I'm as nutty as a fruit cake but I'm egotistical self praising ego maniac. :rolleyes:

are you confused about your identity again? You should up the dose of tacrine so these outbursts don't happen in public...

[nevesirth]

what do you think the u.s hoped to gain, if i were to believe the theory you posted? and what about the ayman zawahiri videos and tapes, were they also forged by the cia? or cud he be an uner cover cia agent secretly working for america?

[nevesirth]

there actually is something fishy about the latest video, even the beards looked funny, the image only moved three times, the explanation for this was that it might have been uploaded through several websites in order to hide the origing or actual source of the video thereby resulting in the freezing of the image. and they claim it was also leaked to the cia even before al sahab could post it.with the latest cgi technology these days, any form of make belief is virtually possible. so no ruling out of that here, but concrete evidence and not mere speculations is needed.

[Science101]

It would not matter if it was real or fake. We know who declared war on the US and other countries.

[wilberhum]

It would not matter if it was real or fake. We know who declared war on the US and other countries.

Of course we do. There is just a set that won't accept it. :hiding:

[Keltoi]

Perhaps I failed to notice, but I haven't seen anyone blame the Jews for 9/11 on this thread. Does that point to an improvement in the cognitive capacity of our conspiracy brethren?

I think for Americans the thought of the CIA fabricating Bin Laden videos is so funny its hysterical, but some people actually believe that stuff. Most of the time they point to the altered appearance of OBL on several of the videos. The reality of that situation is that some of these extremist websites will recycle old footage and alter it slightly in an attempt to produce a "new" OBL tape.

I just saw a breaking news report which mentioned that an extremist Islamist website from Cairo is stating that a new "martyr" video from one of the 9-11 hijackers will be released on the 11th.

[tomtomsmom]

This thread really saddens me. I suppose I should be used to it by now, but I refuse. Personal insults, conspiracy theories and the non-ending game of Clue is overshadowing the horror of 9/11 and the thousands of lives lost since. That is a day I will NEVER forget. The images from that day are burned into my brain. And I still cry. I hope that ALL the souls lost that day and due to this war find a way to rest in peace. And yes, even the ones (whoever they may be) that flew those planes on that very dark day.

[جوري]

^^ I hope the chains of horrors that have been justified by this fraudulent attempt to frame people to invade them saddens and horrifies you equally much! I don't think anyone needs a long list.. any more than they need the usual sophomoric commentary from the regulars..
How amusing that, 'hilarious' and 'conspiracy' is the best anyone has to offer as an explanation to the absurd, mind boggling events that took place and continue to take place!
Yeah that usama! and I am currently on Atlantis

[Muezzin]

Wow. This seems to be a very popular/infamous poem, generating more thread pages than Ninja Turtles have fingers.

This thread really saddens me. I suppose I should be used to it by now, but I refuse. Personal insults, conspiracy theories and the non-ending game of Clue is overshadowing the horror of 9/11 and the thousands of lives lost since. That is a day I will NEVER forget. The images from that day are burned into my brain. And I still cry. I hope that ALL the souls lost that day and due to this war find a way to rest in peace. And yes, even the ones (whoever they may be) that flew those planes on that very dark day.

Thank you for injecting sanity into this thread.

[wilberhum]

This thread really saddens me. I suppose I should be used to it by now, but I refuse. Personal insults, conspiracy theories and the non-ending game of Clue is overshadowing the horror of 9/11 and the thousands of lives lost since. That is a day I will NEVER forget. The images from that day are burned into my brain. And I still cry. I hope that ALL the souls lost that day and due to this war find a way to rest in peace. And yes, even the ones (whoever they may be) that flew those planes on that very dark day.

Well done. :peace:

[Amadeus85]

well see aaron israel has nothing to do with the USA, and this is the problem which you summed up very well. say arabs one day invaded and destroyed israel, this would not in any way hurt america or americans. and this is the problem with US goverment they put their noses in business that just isnt theirs! many americans themselves say lets not meddle in others business and affairs!

whats ironic is that america giving so much protection and money to israel is causing more problems and defense worries for the USA!

Mmm you still dont understand me :mmokay: . See 1,5 billions muslims from Morocco to Indonesia somehow support Palestinians Arabs. Mentally, sending them money, food, etc. And Israel has just 7 millions citizens, including over 1 million muslim Arabs (who are enemies of the jewish state as well) and is surrounded by 300 million Arabs. You know, seriously i believe that Israel would kick their asses over and over again without US help either but i really cant understand why Malaysia for example can support Palestinian Arabs and USA cant support Israel Jewish state? Seriously, what Malaysians or Afghans for example had to do with Palestina? They are not even Arabs.Just like most Americans arent Jews.You see , its not so simple.

[The_Prince]

Mmm you still dont understand me :mmokay: . See 1,5 billions muslims from Morocco to Indonesia somehow support Palestinians Arabs. Mentally, sending them money, food, etc. And Israel has just 7 millions citizens, including over 1 million muslim Arabs (who are enemies of the jewish state as well) and is surrounded by 300 million Arabs. You know, seriously i believe that Israel would kick their asses over and over again without US help either but i really cant understand why Malaysia for example can support Palestinian Arabs and USA cant support Israel Jewish state? Seriously, what Malaysians or Afghans for example had to do with Palestina? They are not even Arabs.Just like most Americans arent Jews.You see , its not so simple.

thats too bad they couldnt kick hezbollah's 'asses' as you say.

[Amadeus85]

hitler and ibn laden have nothing in common, u might have been decieved by the media trying to paint him as a monster or a crazy extremist which is far from the truth

heres a statement from ibn laden

The leaders in America and in other countries as well have fallen victim to Jewish Zionist blackmail. They have mobilized their people against Islam and against Muslims. These are portrayed in such a manner as to drive people to rally against them. The truth is that the whole Muslim world is the victim of international terrorism, engineered by America at the United Nations. We are a nation whose sacred symbols have been looted and whose wealth and resources have been plundered. It is normal for us to react against the forces that invade our land and occupy it ...

[B]does that sound like something hitler will say? i guess not

For me the only difference between Osama and Adolf is that Osama didnt have as much power as Adolf had. If Osama had an atomic bomb, im sure that he would nuke USA (The Great Satan) without an eye blink.

[The_Prince]

For me the only difference between Osama and Adolf is that Osama didnt have as much power as Adolf had. If Osama had an atomic bomb, im sure that he would nuke USA (The Great Satan) without an eye blink.

just like the usa atom bombed japan not once, but twice :raging: wheres the sorrow for the japanease???????????????? instead everyone justifies it :skeleton:

[Amadeus85]

thats too bad they couldnt kick hezbollah's 'asses' as you say.

Its hard to fight with militans who hide among civilians. I would say that it was a draw. I think that it is the main reason of Arabs' hatred for Israel- because tiny Israel, which has almost as many citizens as Cairo, beat its arabic neighbours in every single was, sometimes fighting one against 3 or 4 .

[The_Prince]

Its hard to fight with militans who hide among civilians. I would say that it was a draw. I think that it is the main reason of Arabs' hatred for Israel- because tiny Israel, which has almost as many citizens as Cairo, beat its arabic neighbours in every single was, sometimes fighting one against 3 or 4 .

actually stop talking garbage like you usually do. israel beat rubbish arab armies supported by puppet arab goverments whom the ppl dont even support, so congrats you beat some of the worst armies in the world! hurra!!!!!

and israel didnt win every single war, they didnt win twice in lebanon, they didnt win the sinia war in 73. so where did they win all their wars????

and isnt funny tiny hezbollah outnumbered by up to 5-1 beat might israeli idf? hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

this is going off topic but you went off topic with smart comment on israel and i am pleased to crush it.

[Amadeus85]

just like the usa atom bombed japan not once, but twice :raging: wheres the sorrow for the japanease???????????????? instead everyone justifies it :skeleton:

Japan was in coalition with nazist in WWII. They commited huge crimes and artrocities in the lands that they occupied in Asia. Ask Chinese,Koreans. Those atomic bombs allowed to finish this war way sooner than it would be finished. those bombs actually saved more lifes than they killed.Anyway, its offtopic.

[Amadeus85]

actually stop talking garbage like you usually do. israel beat rubbish arab armies supported by puppet arab goverments whom the ppl dont even support, so congrats you beat some of the worst armies in the world! hurra!!!!!

.

Here i agree with you. Arabs did have the worst armies in world. And it didnt change much till now.

[The_Prince]

Japan was in coalition with nazist in WWII. They commited huge crimes and artrocities in the lands that they occupied in Asia. Ask Chinese,Koreans. Those atomic bombs allowed to finish this war way sooner than it would be finished. those bombs actually saved more lifes than they killed.Anyway, its offtopic.

indeed you are very sick justifying atomic bombs, dont ever complain if usa gets nuked then, what a double faced hypocrite, you seriously need alot of help big time.

and then they come cry when they get attacked? ...........i dont know what to say seriously these ppl are so double faced and double standard its so sickening.

[The_Prince]

Here i agree with you. Arabs did have the worst armies in world. And it didnt change much till now.

too bad for ypu we dont rely on our armies ;) hezbollah made it clear we dont need armies, we need well orginized and higly motivated trained millitias which is what is being done now, arab armies are changing tactics and forming millitia guerilla warfare groups :) so the army strength does not matter in the least, times of war are changing and soon all your mighty dynamite and fancy weapons will mean nothing in guerilla warfare :) USA and britian cant handle it in iraq, nor could israel in lebanon, its a sign of more things to come in terms of warfare in the mid-east in the future.

[The_Prince]

indeed you are very sick justifying atomic bombs, dont ever complain if usa gets nuked then, what a double faced hypocrite, you seriously need alot of help big time.

and then they come cry when they get attacked? ...........i dont know what to say seriously these ppl are so double faced and double standard its so sickening.

america has commited huge crimes as well, so using your logic september 11 was justified or oh wait a minute did you just expose your raicist superiority complex where you think no one has the right to attack you for wrongs and injustice you have commited but you can attack others for wrongs and injustice they have commited? :rolleyes: hopeless really.

[The_Prince]

so ladies and gents, according to aaron its ok for the USA to nuke and destroy and kill up to 200,000 ppl mainly innocent just because they were bad and commited some gross crimes. but if america is attacked for the very same reason we must all stand up and cry and show sympathy and bla bla bla.........

notice folks theres only one party here that is condoning atrocities, i have not ONCE said sep 11 is okay because of the crimes the usa has commited, aaron boy meanwhile has condoned the massive slaughter and terrorist act against the japanease.............do you feel the love? lol then christians complain why so many turn atheists? perhaps because of these double standards you have where one second you say christ is love and love your enemy, then the next second you justify 2 atomic bombs killing 200,000 ppl? lol this would make good atheist humor on the bill maher show.

[The_Prince]

we were talking about HOW TO STOP ANOTHER SEP 11?

do you think you will stop it by justifying something worst than sep 11? an extemist will say hey look this guy justifies atomic bombs for the greator good and to stop evil, so why cant i bomb the hell out of his nation to do the same thing?

so what a paradox, you want to stop september 11th? stop being an extremist yourself before you want world peace and an end to another sep 11 because right now you are the problem as well. how will you stop sep 11 when you justify the death of 200,000 ppl mainly innocent?!!!!!!!!! DONT YOU SEE THE CONTRADICTION? for god sakes wake up plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Amadeus85]

so ladies and gents, according to aaron its ok for the USA to nuke and destroy and kill up to 200,000 ppl mainly innocent just because they were bad and commited some gross crimes. but if america is attacked for the very same reason we must all stand up and cry and show sympathy and bla bla bla.........

notice folks theres only one party here that is condoning atrocities, i have not ONCE said sep 11 is okay because of the crimes the usa has commited, aaron boy meanwhile has condoned the massive slaughter and terrorist act against the japanease.............do you feel the love? lol then christians complain why so many turn atheists? perhaps because of these double standards you have where one second you say christ is love and love your enemy, then the next second you justify 2 atomic bombs killing 200,000 ppl? lol this would make good atheist humor on the bill maher show.

You like talking much, but not listening. I didnt say that destroying of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was my dream come true. Heck, i wasnt even in world in those times. I just said that there was a war then, war that took lifes of millions of people, and it would take lifes of more people if it lasted more. Do you get what i mean? Now look, if you had an occassion to send an atomic bomb on nazi Germany in 1939 br the war began, and you would kill those 200 000 people, you would rescue those 50 millions that died and were killed in WWII.

[The_Prince]

You like talking much, but not listening. I didnt say that destroying of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was my dream come true. Heck, i wasnt even in world in those times. I just said that there was a war then, war that took lifes of millions of people, and it would take lifes of more people if it lasted more. Do you get what i mean? Now look, if you had an occassion to send an atomic bomb on nazi Germany in 1939 br the war began, and you would kill those 200 000 people, you would rescue those 50 millions that died and were killed in WWII.

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla no offense all i hear is you justifyin two atomic bombs, and as i said, osama bin laden can use the same reasons u just did, i did sep 11 to stop their evils and get back at them........so you see? you are an extemist yourself and not the solution, whats the difference between u 2? he will bomb someone who he feels is evil, you just justified it and would obviously do the same. so you are not the solution i am afraid.

and btw what are you? do you feel life and humans are so worthless you can go just kill 200,000 like that? your not god to decide humanitys fate by taking fate and human lives into your own hands SO AGAIN THIS EXAMPLE YOU BRING FAILS because your not in the position to make such choices the killing of ONE INNOCENT LIFE is enough to send you to hell, and now you want 200,000 dead?! you sure are no christian

[The_Prince]

AARON: dropping 2 nukes was needed to stop the greater evil and end japans gross crimes

Osama Bin Laden: we wont stop bombing you until we get our security and we bomb you for your crimes.

does anyone see the similarities? osama said he wont stop until the muslims get security, which means he attacked the usa to stop what he percieves to be an evil being commited against muslims. and as aaron says:

AARON: dropping 2 nukes was needed to stop the greater evil

my oh my and you want to stop another sep 11?

[Amadeus85]

bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla no offense all i hear is you justifyin two atomic bombs, and as i said, osama bin laden can use the same reasons u just did, i did sep 11 to stop their evils and get back at them........so you see? you are an extemist yourself and not the solution, whats the difference between u 2? he will bomb someone who he feels is evil, you just justified it and would obviously do the same. so you are not the solution i am afraid.

and btw what are you? do you feel life and humans are so worthless you can go just kill 200,000 like that? your not god to decide humanitys fate by taking fate and human lives into your own hands SO AGAIN THIS EXAMPLE YOU BRING FAILS because your not in the position to make such choices the killing of ONE INNOCENT LIFE is enough to send you to hell, and now you want 200,000 dead?! you sure are no christian

i didnt say that it was ok to nuke Japan.I just explained you the situation and i tried to understand why USA nuked them, just like you tried to understand why Osama prepared 9/11 but you still dont justify it, dont you Prince?

[The_Prince]

no i dont justify it, but hey buddyyyyyyyy you arent giving the situation! you know your not!

you gave the reason as to why japan was nuked not to educate me on why it happened, but to state the reasons as a means to justify the event, you know you did!

you even then asked me if i would kill 200,000 ppl to stop a greater evil, so you obviously believed it was okay because the 2 nukes stoped the war and more killings (which isnt an actual fact since we dont know if many many many many many more ppl wud die if the nukes werent dropped, this is an assumption to justify the nukes. nazis were beaten with nukes, so why not japan)

[Amadeus85]

no i dont justify it, but hey buddyyyyyyyy you arent giving the situation! you know your not!

you gave the reason as to why japan was nuked not to educate me on why it happened, but to state the reasons as a means to justify the event, you know you did!

you even then asked me if i would kill 200,000 ppl to stop a greater evil, so you obviously believed it was okay because the 2 nukes stoped the war and more killings (which isnt an actual fact since we dont know if many many many many many more ppl wud die if the nukes werent dropped, this is an assumption to justify the nukes. nazis were beaten with nukes, so why not japan)

You were wondering why did Osama prepared 9/11 and you said that those were political reasons, you mentioned that US supported Israel and had troops in Saudi Arabia. And i didnt say that you justify this. Then i tried to understand why did US drop two A-bombs on Japan. And it doesnt mean that i adore this decison or justidy. I just try to understand why they did it. If you dont get it, its not my problem.

[The_Prince]

You were wondering why did Osama prepared 9/11 and you said that those were political reasons, you mentioned that US supported Israel and had troops in Saudi Arabia. And i didnt say that you justify this. Then i tried to understand why did US drop two A-bombs on Japan. And it doesnt mean that i adore this decison or justidy. I just try to understand why they did it. If you dont get it, its not my problem.

you are lying to me, and everyone on the forum, plz aaron dont think i am stupid, you and i know you tried to justify the nukes it was so obvious its laughable you now try and act like you didnt! be honest DUDE be honest.

[Amadeus85]

you are lying to me, and everyone on the forum, plz aaron dont think i am stupid, you and i know you tried to justify the nukes it was so obvious its laughable you now try and act like you didnt! be honest DUDE be honest.

Dont put in my mouth words that i didnt say. I also can say- Prince you justifed 9/11 attack, you are an islamofascists. Anyway, get back to the topic, Japan isnt the issue here.So i wont speak about it more, if you dont understand me its not my problem.^o)

[The_Prince]

Dont put in my mouth words that i didnt say. I also can say- Prince you justifed 9/11 attack, you are an islamofascists. Anyway, get back to the topic, Japan isnt the issue here.So i wont speak about it more, if you dont understand me its not my problem.^o)

LOL sure u can EVERYTIME i brought their reasons I SAID IT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT, u never did until i exposed ur faulty extremist thinking, badaboommmmmmmmm u lose again so no u cant :coolious: i feel gooddddddd nanananananananan i feel gooddddddddd nananananana

[Keltoi]

Call me an extremist all you want, but I believe Harry Truman chose the lesser of two evils. Drop these experimental bombs that had the chance of ending the war with Japan or commit to a horrible invasion of Japan which would have been hell on earth the likes of which two atomic bombs can't even match. Yes, two big explosions seem horrible and obviously more dramatic, but the invasion of Japan would have led to far more deaths than those who perished in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It isn't about "justifying", it is about reality.

[The_Prince]

Call me an extremist all you want, but I believe Harry Truman chose the lesser of two evils. Drop these experimental bombs that had the chance of ending the war with Japan or commit to a horrible invasion of Japan which would have been hell on earth the likes of which two atomic bombs can't even match. Yes, two big explosions seem horrible and obviously more dramatic, but the invasion of Japan would have led to far more deaths than those who perished in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It isn't about "justifying", it is about reality.

naananananan batmannnnnnnnnnnn

[Md Mashud]

Call me an extremist all you want, but I believe Harry Truman chose the lesser of two evils. Drop these experimental bombs that had the chance of ending the war with Japan or commit to a horrible invasion of Japan which would have been hell on earth the likes of which two atomic bombs can't even match. Yes, two big explosions seem horrible and obviously more dramatic, but the invasion of Japan would have led to far more deaths than those who perished in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. It isn't about "justifying", it is about reality.

Are you serious? Do you know the long term effects of atomic bombs? NO invasion can ever have a more worse effect then atomic bombs as a matter of fact. To think otherwise is just truly unbelievable...

Anyone who justifies those bombs are a disgrace to humanity, far worse then those who support the 9/11 instances.

[The_Prince]

Are you serious? Do you know the long term effects of atomic bombs? NO invasion can ever have a more worse effect then atomic bombs as a matter of fact. To think otherwise is just truly unbelievable...

Anyone who justifies those bombs are a disgrace to humanity.

and they act suprised as to why many ppl dont feel sympathetic or sad about 9-11 then they look in this ugly face at you saying how dare you!

they will never learn.

gut thankfully most americans dont think like this.

[Amadeus85]

Anyone interested in getting back to the topic- anniversary of 9/11 ? Any suggestions how to prevent such attacks ?

[Md Mashud]

[edit] What would be more accurate is, if atomic bombs were used in 9/11, aslong as less casualties were made - it would have been a better move.

I hope this makes you sleep well at night:

Several factors make it difficult to estimate casualty numbers due to the bombings. The population prior to the bombings is unknown, because of formal and informal evacuations, and unknown numbers of forced laborers. Some victims were burned beyond recognition or their bodies disposed in mass cremations.[11] Records of military personnel were destroyed, and entire families perished, leaving nobody to report the casualties. According to most estimates, the bombing of Hiroshima killed approximately 70,000 people due to immediate effects of the blast. Estimates of total deaths by the end of 1945 range from 90,000 to 140,000, due to aftereffects such as burns and radiation. [12][13]. The United States Department of Energy (DOE) estimates that as many as 200,000 may have died from cancer and other long-term effects by 1950. The numbers for Nagasaki are consistently lower, because the terrain reduced the impact of the bomb. The DOE estimates 40,000 died at Nagasaki from immediate blast effects[14], whereas the official Japanese numbers are in the 75,000 range[15]. In both cities, the overwhelming majority of the deaths were civilians.[1][2][3]

[InToTheRain]

According to you, instead of planes we should use atomic bombs and its all good...

:eek: I think calling people who think like that extreme terrorists would be an understatement :eek:

[The_Prince]

According to you, instead of planes we should use atomic bombs and its all good...


[edit] What would be more accurate is, if atomic bombs were used in 9/11, aslong as less casualties were made - it would have been a good move.

I hope this makes you sleep well at night:

disgusting and they justify this barbarity then demand sympathy for 9-11, i really dont understand.............:grumbling

[wilberhum]

disgusting and they justify this barbarity then demand sympathy for 9-11, i really dont understand.............:grumbling

They? Who is They?

Do you always lump together millions of people based on what one person says?

[The_Prince]

They? Who is They?

Do you always lump together millions of people based on what one person says?

well the fact is keltoi and aaron are not the first westerners i have seen that have justified the atomic bombing. and secondly i have said it so many times on this forum that i dont believe they represent the majority. thirdly if you followed context you would have followed along and noticed that by they i meant the likes of aaron and keltoi who justify nukes on japan then act suprised when they get no sympathey for 9-11!

[Science101]

Then what would you have done?

If you choose the bomb then none of your countrymen die.

If you choose to invade then expect over 100,000 of your countrymen to die.

Choose wisely...

[The_Prince]

Then what would you have done?

If you choose the bomb then none of your countrymen die.

If you choose to invade then expect over 100,000 of your countrymen to die.

Choose wisely...

zzz take your endless excuses and blabber elsewhere i have no time for your petty ways of trying to justify it, your really pathetic when it comes to attacks against you you all demand sympathy and no space for any buts and ifs but when you bring double the terror to others you try to justify it with all these silly assumptions and questions and bla bla bla and keep doing it because the more you do it, the less sympathy you get for 9-11 and the more fire you make for another 9-11. so plz dont expect and ask for sympathy in the future, you think its ok to drop two atom bombs? then you sure as hell have no right to nag about sep 11 no right whatsoever but being so pathetic you will now make excuses to say 9-11 was terrible and much different bla bla says who? says you because you are attacked? bin laden could easily bring all these silly stupid type riddles and questions you bring up to justify it so theres no difference.

either way dont expect no sympathy since you obviously justify terrorism

[The_Prince]

why cant you guys practice what you preach and condemn terrorism? sheesh all these lame excuses and justifications then you say muslims do it! your no different and you know it, face it your just filled with double standards and some arrogant superiority complex

[Science101]

Then what would you have done?

If you choose the bomb then none of your countrymen die.

If you choose to invade then expect over 100,000 of your countrymen to die.

Choose wisely...

zzz take your endless excuses and blabber elsewhere i have no time for your petty ways of trying to justify it, your really pathetic when it comes to attacks against you you all demand sympathy and no space for any buts and ifs but when you bring double the terror to others you try to justify it with all these silly assumptions and questions and bla bla bla and keep doing it because the more you do it, the less sympathy you get for 9-11 and the more fire you make for another 9-11. so plz dont expect and ask for sympathy in the future, you think its ok to drop two atom bombs? then you sure as hell have no right to nag about sep 11 no right whatsoever but being so pathetic you will now make excuses to say 9-11 was terrible and much different bla bla says who? says you because you are attacked? bin laden could easily bring all these silly stupid type riddles and questions you bring up to justify it so theres no difference.

either way dont expect no sympathy since you obviously justify terrorism

All I asked is for you to choose how YOU would end WW2, then you condemned me.

Go ahead. Tell me what you would do if you were the one that would be blamed, no matter what you did. Japan (country the USA didn't even know that sided with Hitler) has vowed to destroy everything, they have a new weapon that drops bombs from balloons, their suicide bombers (Kamikaze) are killing your people, hurry up and decide how you are going to stop them!

[snakelegs]

hmmmm..... 9/11 has disappeared by an atomic bomb!
right after 9/11, we had the sympathy of most of the world. now practically everybody hates this country.
9/11 has been tarnished by exploiting those deaths to cause more death.
i don't waste time on conspiracy theories.
but i also don't automatically believe everything my government tells me, either.

[Md Mashud]

I do think its every humans duty, that includes muslims -_-, that they should feel sympathy for the innocent people who died in 9/11. Islam is against killing of innocent lives period, our Prophet :saw:, even in War against enemies, would make sure no innocent casualties took place - even if they were against the Prophet :saw:, on the basis that they arn't fighting him.

Muslims shouldn't hate "Americans" or "jews", but maybe the governments and people of power. The only dislike I could have on them maybe that they are the ones who elect those people in power :S? But yep, hatred on nations is not Islamic or even politically correct.

[Science101]

hmmmm..... 9/11 has disappeared by an atomic bomb!

The two issues are often brought together in debates about 9/11. Hard to avoid it. I have seen this happen a lot. The two wars have striking similarities that are worth mentioning when the topic moves in that direction but dropping the bombs seems like the perfect way to coat the USA with mud, but there is a problem with that logic, especially since at the time the effects of it were unknown and Germany was working on it too. If they had succeeded then the Muslim world would have most likely been carpet-nuked by Hitler due to Arabs not being blond hair and blue eye Arian and only Christians were allowed in the new world he tried to make. That puts all of us in the same boat.

Now, what will The_Prince do about Japan? Their ruler decided to take Hitler's place and conquer the world with his ideology, which did not allow Muslims either. If the USA loses, the military country of Japan which was very good in science and technology would get to carpet-nuke the Arab world.

And I must add that it's all the same to me, no matter what they decide to do. With the kind of weaponry available at the time the numbers would have been the same either way. Only difference is how many of their own countrymen will die in Japan, and their chances of saving the Muslim world which had no defense at all against the technology they already had and were planning to build.

I hope they hurry up before it's too late to save us! :scared:

[glo]

All innocent life lost is a tragedy!

Whatever the debate about politics, lies and conspiracy theories, today is the 11th of September, and today my thoughts are especially with those who lost their loved ones six years ago.

Peace

[Keltoi]

Are you serious? Do you know the long term effects of atomic bombs? NO invasion can ever have a more worse effect then atomic bombs as a matter of fact. To think otherwise is just truly unbelievable...

Anyone who justifies those bombs are a disgrace to humanity, far worse then those who support the 9/11 instances.

Are you serious? Do you think being killed by a conventional bomb is any better than being killed by an atomic bomb? The invasion of Japan would have been brutal beyond belief, for both sides. I don't see anyone suggesting dropping an atomic bomb is a "good" thing. War isn't a good thing. To fully understand this debate, you have to understand the mindset and personality of the Japanese people, especially during the time of the emperors. The Japanese would have been honor bound to resist a land invasion almost literally to the last fighting capable man or woman. The bloodbath that would have resulted would have made the atomic blasts look like a blessing. It was a decision I'm thankful I never had to make.

In response to Glo, I absolutely agree. Regardless of one's political ideology, the 11th should be a time of remembrance for lives lost.

[Science101]

right after 9/11, we had the sympathy of most of the world. now practically everybody hates this country.

Don't react to the vocal minority that makes the headlines and the usual war-time propaganda meant to divide us. Other governments in the area are also threatened and attacked by Al-Qaeda. Saudi Arabia has bombings that don't even make the news. The well educated leaders who understand what they represent, do not hate us. Even Iran's government is danger because no matter what Qaeda says, they aim to overthrow their government too.

During WW2 the same thing happened. There were many who hated the US involvement. Even had people in this country demanding all troops be brought back home, just like there are right now. Then after the war when people could speak truthfully about their involvement the propaganda was sifted from the facts, and the USA was proven to be a very brave hero. The people who thought they had it all figured out but were proven wrong ended up looking foolish. So it's just history repeating itself again. All of this has been done before. Even guys like Bin Laden are nothing new. It's a mental condition called "megalomania" where a person gets so drunk on power they think they have a divine right to rule the world. Saddam suffered from it too and tried to accomplish that through the Palestinians who he helped impoverish. He helped ruin the statehood they could have had by now when the US under president Bush offered to make that happen for them. But Saddam didn't want statehood for the Palestinians, he wanted to annex their territory then use them even more, which is why he was supporting terrorism there included his giving suicide bomber families $25,000 US dollars each for each child sacrificed. But the world fights back against that sort of thing. In time even the Palestinians will see what Saddam was doing to them.

Also, consider this. The average people of the US would not know a darn thing about the Muslim world if it were not for this war because we tend to be isolationists when things are going well. And Muslims would not really get a chance to know the US for what it really represents if it were left up to somewhat isolationist leaders. Very few on that side understand NATO (alliance of countries that share bases in case one is attacked) and the alliances that on a map looks like a giant empire. And we are in a Muslim forum, sharing ideas and interests, much of that in response to this war too. It has brought us together in a very unique way. We will argue and debate until we become friends. :argue: It happens to almost everyone caught in a conflict like this. So everyone here, in this very forum, has more power to bring peace to a very hostile world than they ever imagined. Not many associate this way, we are kinda rubbing elbows with what other think of as "the enemy" so were like way-cool to others in that respect. With a healthy attitude and respect for all, we can change everything for the better.

And look at the list of coalition forces in Iraq.

United States: 250,000 invasion--168,000 current (9/07)
United Kingdom: 45,000 invasion--5,500 current (5/07)
Poland: 194 invasion--2,500 peak--900 current (2/07)
Australia: 2,000 invasion--638 current (2/07)
South Korea: 3,600 peak – 1,200 current (5/07; deployed 5/03)
Romania: 730 peak – 405 current (5/07; deployed 7/03)
Georgia: 500 troops – 300 current (2/07)
El Salvador: 380 peak – 300 current (8/07; deployed 08/03)
Czech Republic: 300 peak--89 current (5/07)
Azerbaijan: 250 troops (2/07)
Denmark: 430 peak - 55 current (9/07, deployed 04/03)
Latvia: 136 peak--2 current (8/07; deployed 4/04)
Mongolia: 180 peak--100 current (2/07; deployed 8/03)
Albania: 120 troops (2/07)
Lithuania: 120 peak--53 current (2/07)
Armenia: 46 current (2/07; deployed 1/05)
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 36 troops (2/07; deployed 6/05)
Estonia: 35 current (2/07; deployed 6/05)
Macedonia: 33 troops (2/07; deployed 7/03)
Kazakhstan: 29 troops (2/07; deployed 9/03)
Moldova: 24 peak--12 current (2/07; deployed 9/03)
Bulgaria: 485 peak--155 current (2/07; deployed 5/03)

It's a giant when countries that are helping in other ways are included.

I know that it may look like everything is going bad. But there is a whole lot of things going on that are good most don't even see happening because it's not something that gets reported in the news or people really stop to think about. And what happened to all the "Death To America" rallies that were once in the news all the time? The warmongers who were trying to trigger a war that would get us to kill each other are not as proud as they once were, or are simply gone for good. It's our turn to decide the future, not theirs, and all we need, to be a big part of that miracle, is a warm heart, strong mind, and a keyboard that takes us to any place in the world that we want to go.

:beard: :muslimah:

[Science101]

In response to Glo, I absolutely agree. Regardless of one's political ideology, the 11th should be a time of remembrance for lives lost.

I also agree. Thought it best to end this round of debate with the hopeful message in the topic above.

It will never bring back the lives lost, but out of the ashes, can come a cure to that kind of madness. Make the words "Never Again" real.

My condolences to all who were hurt by 9/11.

[tomtomsmom]

^^ I hope the chains of horrors that have been justified by this fraudulent attempt to frame people to invade them saddens and horrifies you equally much! I don't think anyone needs a long list.. any more than they need the usual sophomoric commentary from the regulars..
How amusing that, 'hilarious' and 'conspiracy' is the best anyone has to offer as an explanation to the absurd, mind boggling events that took place and continue to take place!
Yeah that usama! and I am currently on Atlantis

Yes sister it does. If you read carefully I was not speaking of only the lives lost on 9/11 but also of the thousands who have died as the backlash spread throughout the world. Six years ago I sat and watched planes fly into buildings as a fed my 6 month old baby breakfast. I couldn't help but think that my sons life would never be the same. As I dropped him off at first grade this morning I had the same thought. The world will never be the same. There are parentless children wondering around lost with no one to guide them because of 9/11 and the war that followed. There is nothing to justify that. There is no magic that can make that better. Many think that all Americans want to justify wars and killing people with a simple "they did it to us first". Well I am not one of those Americans. There has to have been a better way. There just has to.

[nevesirth]

ibn laden is actualy working for the C.I.A [center for intelligent aliens].He originated from a wealthy alien family in pluto, he was sent to earth to cause mass destruction and exterminate the human race inorder for the aliens to get our oil, because oil is their main staple food

enough of all these conspiracy theories. the truth is tht no one here is sure of the facts, just all speculations