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09-10-2007, 09:29 PM
CAIRO — The anti-Islam debate has reached Facebook, the world's leading socialworking website, prompting a petition supported by thousands of Muslim (more)

CAIRO — The anti-Islam debate has reached Facebook, the world's leading socialworking website, prompting a petition supported by thousands of Muslim and non-Muslim members, The New York Times reported on Monday, September 10. "We r quitting Facebook," more than 58,000 Facebook members are threatening unless a one-month-old anti-Islam group was removed.

One of the champions of the petition-drive group is Essma Bargewee, a 20-year student of business at Montclair State University in New Jersey.

She joined and invited some friends and posted at a few other groups in Facebook.

"Next morning I came and was expecting 15 or something to join but found hundreds," Bargewee said in an e-mail to the Times.

"As you have seen we ended up with thousands of both Muslims and non-Muslims defending our idea."

The petition is rallying against a 750-member group which carries the name "Based on the facts...Mohammed was a murderer."

"The Qur'an contains many lies and threats. Islam is false, no god exists, and someone should say that loud and clear," it states on its website.

"Heaven and hell are fables, prayer is a waste of time, and angels and jinn are obviously mythology."

Pointless

The petition complains against the group's attack on Islam as a faith and prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

"Please notice that Muslims take this issue very seriously as it harms our beliefs and our prophet," it reads.

The petition accuses the anti-Islam group of violating the very basic policies of Facebook under the pretext of freedom of expression.

"We want you to know that we respect the freedom of speech and opinions but Beliefs must be respected also as the mentioned group attacks individual and group in which it's violating the policy of Facebook that we all respect."

The group creator’s account was removed temporarily before being reinstated, the US daily said.

"Facebook briefly deleted my account, and I assumed they did so because of the group, but they reinstated the account and told me that it was a mistake of some sort," the organizer of the anti-Islam site said in an e-mail.

Facebook declined to comment on the subject or on what steps had been taken, if any.

Founded in 2004, Facebook's membership was initially restricted to students of the Harvard University.

It was later expanded to other universities in the United States and later to any student with a university email address from all over the world.

Networks were then initiated for high schools and some large companies.

Since September 11, 2006, it has been made available to any email address user who inputs a certain age range.

Users can select to join one or more participatingworks, such as a high school, place of employment, or geographic region.

As of July 2007, the website had the largest number of registered users among college-focused sites with over 34 million active members worldwide.

In July, it was ranked between the top 10–13 web sites, and was the number one site for photos in the US with over 8.5 million photos uploaded daily.

Facebook is also the sixth most visited site in the US.

Source: IslamOnline
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Md Mashud
09-10-2007, 09:41 PM
Just plain wrong to have an anti-islam group, equally as much as anti-Christianity or anti-Jewish group...

Anyone against Islam, or other faiths, is only because they have the wrong perception of it - which is sad - how much misunderstanding leads to hatred.

Getting political movements mixed up with religious movements is always dangerous :skeleton:
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Skavau
09-10-2007, 11:46 PM
This Anti-Muslim group has all right to exist. As long as this particular group is not infringing upon Facebook's code of conduct or inciting violence there is no issue (or ought not to be).

There should be no special treatment allocated.
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3ARABY_2005
09-11-2007, 12:32 AM
Doesn't Matter What They Do On Facebook Or Anyother Site

They R Hopeless.

Here In Egypt More Than 50 Christain Man Enters Islam Daily..even That Reaches Over 200 Per Day Sometimes

They Can't Win The Fight Against Islam

Remeber THIS My Brothers ...the Dogs' Barking Can't Influence The Sky

ISLAM IS THE SKY .... And They R The Barking Dogs

So Whether They Continued To Bark..or They Stoped....no Effect On Islam


Jazakumullah Khair
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3ARABY_2005
09-11-2007, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
This Anti-Muslim group has all right to exist. As long as this particular group is not infringing upon Facebook's code of conduct or inciting violence there is no issue (or ought not to be).

There should be no special treatment allocated.
THANX FOR UR OWN ATHEISTIC PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW :zip::zip::zip:
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by 3ARABY_2005
THANX FOR UR OWN ATHEISTIC PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW :zip::zip::zip:
Right. Interesting way of responding to people. It's like talking to a parrot.

The view I gave then though has nothing to do with my Atheism.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 01:05 AM
I don't see the point of such groups exisiting? I read some pretty wild farcical comments on these boards but this is tops..
what is the point of a group like the KKK existing? or Neo-Nazis..I mean someone point it out to me if for any other reason than to incite hatred and violence?...
This is similar to your admittance that adultery is willfully and maliciously against the sanctity of marriage, but that adulterers should be free to fornicate anyway..
Does that make sense to anyone please?
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 01:14 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't see the point of such groups exisiting? I read some pretty wild farcical comments on these boards but this is tops..
what is the point of a group like the KKK existing? or Neo-Nazis..I mean someone point it out to me if for any other reason than to incite hatred and violence?...
Not unless they are directly encouraging, advocating or supporting violence towards Muslim. Otherwise they are just a group of people that obviously feel morally (as their assertions as shown on the original post appear to indicate) obliged to criticise and attack Islam.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
This is similar to your admittance that adultery is willfully and maliciously against the sanctity of marriage, but that adulterers should be free to fornicate anyway..
Yes.

Because I hold that the government should not enforce by force the 'sanctity of marriage'. It should be kept out of people's bedrooms.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Not unless they are directly encouraging, advocating or supporting violence towards Muslim. Otherwise they are just a group of people that obviously feel morally (as their assertions as shown on the original post appear to indicate) obliged to criticise and attack Islam.
That is exactly the purpose of such groups.. these aren't peaceful people, these are hateful people. There is no 'moral' in hate.. once you have established a set of laws (good laws) should be very clear where truth/right/goodness stands apart from error.. you have to draw the lines somewhere I assume? otherwise I can just come and libel and slander you and 'yo motha' to my heart's content in the most vile of ways, because I find you both oh so Da*n loathsome! Did that offend you? I hope so, because that is how offensive it is!

Yes.

Because I hold that the government should not enforce by force the 'sanctity of marriage'. It should be kept out of people's bedrooms.
It has nothing to do with the govt. It has to do with a sense of decency, and the burden of a promise you've made to another. which is obviousely missing in some parties.. some even more than others (when nothing is to hold them back) You can't honor your word there should be consequence.. obviousely there is no consequence even religiously speaking if you get away with it, which people do! but it is morally reprehensible and hopefully such folks if they don't get their just desert in this world, shall indeed insha'Allah in the hereafter.. after all it is a law of nature, in the argot--'what goes around, comes around'!
So true what they say (faqid alshy'e la yo3teeh), how can I expect to discuss morality, when there is no base line--- it is basically made to fit the changing tides..
few yrs down the line it will be ok to kill your neighbor under the freedom from your neighbor act, to be enforced on sundays, and especially if he is missing his left molars.
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 01:35 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
That is exactly the purpose of such groups.. these aren't peaceful people, these are hateful people.
You could always inquire if you're confused as to their purpose. I'm just telling you what I think it could be. My guess from the original post is that they oppose Islam for moral reasons.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
There is no 'moral' in hate.. once you have established a set of laws (good laws) should be very clear where truth/right/goodness stands apart from error.. you have to draw the lines somewhere I assume?
Yes. That line is incitement to violence towards others.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
otherwise I can just come and libel and slander you and 'yo motha' to my heart's content in the most vile of ways, because I find you both oh so Da*n loathsome! Did that offend you? I hope so, because that is how offensive it is!
You indeed can. It happens all the time on the internet. If you are of course referring to incidents outside the internet though, where people's names are falsely attacked or criticised - then that is a different discussion and I myself have no clear standpoint on such.

You did not by the way, offend me. Years of internet discussions harden me to personal attacks.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
It has nothing to do with the govt. It has to do with a sense of decency, and the burden of a promise you've made to another.
Entirely.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You can't honor your word there should be consequence.. obviousely there is no consequence even religiously speaking if you get away with it, which people do! but it is morally reprehensible and hopefully such folks if they don't get their just desert in this world, shall indeed insha'Allah in the hereafter.. after all it is a law of nature, in the argot--'what goes around, comes around'!
To the parts in bold:

Eh? My word regarding consequence?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
few yrs down the line it will be ok to kill your neighbor under the freedom from your neighbor act, to be enforced on sundays, and especially if he is missing his left molars.
No.

Such would infringe upon the neighbour's rights. You're inventing false scenarios.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
You could always inquire if you're confused as to their purpose. I'm just telling you what I think it could be. My guess from the original post is that they oppose Islam for moral reasons.
I don't understand what against Islam for moral reasons means. what moral reasons could there possibly be against any organized age old religion? is this some sort of joke?


Yes. That line is incitement to violence towards others.
And that is the clear purpose of such groups!


You indeed can. It happens all the time on the internet. If you are of course referring to incidents outside the internet though, where people's names are falsely attacked or criticised - then that is a different discussion and I myself have no clear standpoint on such.
That is exactly what I am denoting doing it where it will have an impact on your life. Either financially where you have to spend money warding off my attacks through lawyers or whatever means, emotionally, where it interferes with your daily activities, physically, where you have to withstand traveling a long distance because I have made sure everyone learns false defaming information about you and not hire you.. etc etc

You did not by the way, offend me. Years of internet discussions harden me to personal attacks.
I am not talking about internet, although, I find it odd that any random person can insult your mother and you'd be ok with it.. perhaps you are just pretending, or maybe you didn't like her and anyone can wish her to go to hell 'the devil may care' attitude.. most people I have encountered and at large I believe though may not particularly care for threats of any sort against their own person, feel rather defensive toward their family-- you might be one of the rare few and thus I commend you!



Such would infringe upon the neighbour's rights. You're inventing false scenarios.
Not at all, I am inviting very likely scenarios when man kind is making and passing the laws...
I will not go into what laws were unthought of that are now so recognized and consented.. a few months ago in Germany and I no longer have the article will look for it though I digress, a brother had an incestuous relationship with his sister had children with her and got away with it.. his lawyer stated 'who are we to define a family unit, or what a family is?' -- we are pushing the envelope, perhaps that is what it means to be cultivated and civilized? I see it very likely down the road to kill your neighbor.. after all it started simply enough with folk like you deeming it OK TO HATE YOUR neighbor!
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Isambard
09-11-2007, 02:01 AM
Why shouldnt the group exist? (assuming it isnt breaking code-of-conduct) You are free to make a group promoting Islam, they are free to make one agaisnt it.

Muslims should not be given special rights.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 02:09 AM
How is it a special right? I fail to see or understand your logic.I believe you have stumbled upon just one verity with the term 'assuming' which is indeed the operative/functional term here!-- no such group exists because they want to pass out popcorn and free prophylactics, their purpose is quite apparent. Or we in need to be lost in convoluted semantics.. perhaps indeed the KKK was just tough love for changelings.
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north_malaysian
09-11-2007, 02:13 AM
I wonder if they would allow Holocaust Denial Group or Pro-Ahmadinejad or Pro-Osama group.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 02:20 AM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
I wonder if they would allow Holocaust Denial Group or Pro-Ahmadinejad or Pro-Osama group.
No because that would be exhibiting political and moral incorrectness.
Forgive me for stating the obvious of course.. it is a sort of reverse satire to highlight the hypocrisy!
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Isambard
09-11-2007, 02:25 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
How is it a special right? I fail to see or understand your logic.I believe you have stumbled upon just one verity with the term 'assuming' which is indeed the operative/functional term here!-- no such group exists because they want to pass out popcorn and free prophylactics, their purpose is quite apparent. Or we in need to be lost in convoluted semantics.. perhaps indeed the KKK was just tough love for changelings.
You are right, groups that oppose anything are mean and bad. I mean groups that disagree with capitolism (such as the many socialist groups on facebook) should be banned, same goes with groups that oppose imperialism (anti- America/Bush group) should be banned. Perfect system

O wait...Islam inherently denounces Christian values and religious beliefs. Islamic groups promoting Islam should be banned. etc.
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syilla
09-11-2007, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
This Anti-Muslim group has all right to exist. As long as this particular group is not infringing upon Facebook's code of conduct or inciting violence there is no issue (or ought not to be).

There should be no special treatment allocated.
don't they have anything else to do :?

Other than to make an anti-something which they don't believe and exist anymore.
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جوري
09-11-2007, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
You are right, groups that oppose anything are mean and bad. I mean groups that disagree with capitolism (such as the many socialist groups on facebook) should be banned, same goes with groups that oppose imperialism (anti- America/Bush group) should be banned. Perfect system

O wait...Islam inherently denounces Christian values and religious beliefs. Islamic groups promoting Islam should be banned. etc.
Forgive me, but are you a simpleton? until your thought process makes an ascent by some miracle from the concrete to something a bit more abstract and full bodied, can you engage in this topic.. I am sure some sections of this forum are designated to the kiddies!
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
This Anti-Muslim group has all right to exist. As long as this particular group is not infringing upon Facebook's code of conduct or inciting violence there is no issue (or ought not to be).

There should be no special treatment allocated.
When you get offended why people think atheistic people generally are illogical - stuff like this kinda confirms it.

Lets see, your brain, seeing this post thought "Anti-religious, yet free speech, heck why not support it? Technically it harms no law right?". This is not the linking of a rational or logical person.

Lets see the context of this group shall we?

Firstly, is it objective? Can any good come of it? We can even bet on that the people have a biased understanding of the religion itself. So what good could really come from this? Make some people happy as they throw insults about Islam between them, having a laugh?

Problems this can cause? Surely, most muslims should feel that their right of practicing Islam is violated by having people ridiculing their way of life, making a public awareness of being against it - for what reason? Probably very bad reasons, based on propaganda. Why should anyone have to have people against their way of life is beyond unfair.

Then we have Isaambard, thinking he is winning the logical battle with the comment

I mean groups that disagree with capitolism (such as the many socialist groups on facebook) should be banned
Ignoring the spelling mistake, Im thinking he meant capitalism. This means:

Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are all or mostly privately owned and operated for profit, and in which investments, distribution, income, production and pricing of goods and services are determined through the operation of a market economy
So, he compared, wait for it let me get a breath its quite a laugh, criticising an economic system is equal to being AGAINST a religious belief that billion+ people follow as their way of life. All I can say is :skeleton: and you can ask Wilberhaum what that means. This is as absurd as it can get really...

Heck, why don't I make an anti-black people group! Free speech right? Who cares if the black people get offended, aslong as I practice my free speech and I have a nice time having a laugh about black people, where is the harm?

But some people believe in not peace and harmony as they speak, but self-satisfication. It is a disease amongst humanity in the modern day, which we can only hope one day dissapears.
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Isambard
09-11-2007, 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Forgive me, but are you a simpleton? until your thought process makes an ascent by some miracle from the concrete to something a bit more abstract and full bodied, can you engage in this topic.. I am sure some sections of this forum are designated to the kiddies!
So seeing a double-standard makes me a simpleton eh? Well I guess its a step up. I usually get called nastier things for pointing out inconsistancies in logic :D
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جوري
09-11-2007, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
So seeing a double-standard makes me a simpleton eh? Well I guess its a step up. I usually get called nastier things for pointing out inconsistancies in logic :D
Actually it is your hypocrisy and the way you express it-- unless you were the first to advocate such groups as KKK, Neo-Nazis, Hitler lovers-- in such case we'd think your head is just not screwed on tight but hey it is your prerogative. Adjudicating from what you so freely express here in various sections, it is what you condone and what you tolerate that allows you to fall into one of two categories, neither idyllic!
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Isambard
09-11-2007, 03:01 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Actually it is your hypocrisy and the way you express it-- unless you were the first to advocate such groups as KKK, Neo-Nazis, Hitler lovers-- in such case we'd think your head is just not screwed on tight but hey it is your prerogative. Adjudicating from what you so freely express here in various sections, it is what you condone and what you tolerate that allows you to fall into one of two categories, neither idyllic!
Such groups have a right to exist as long as they dont break any laws. Even thou said groups do have a problem with my existance (being a former catholic, atheist, having a jewish name and being a colored minority) I still think they have a right to say whatever retarded thing that pops into their head. Just like creationists, just like 'pure' libertarians, just like communists.

They have a right to say whatever and Ill defend that, but I also have a right to call them idiots.

Where's the contradiction?
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't understand what against Islam for moral reasons means. what moral reasons could there possibly be against any organized age old religion? is this some sort of joke?
Same reason people find moral issues with Christianity and other religions. I presume that this specific group has issues with some of the teachings in Islam.

As I've said, I suggest you ask them.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
And that is the clear purpose of such groups!
See above.

I suggest you actually ask them.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am not talking about internet, although, I find it odd that any random person can insult your mother and you'd be ok with it.
I actually wouldn't. I would defend her integrity.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Not at all, I am inviting very likely scenarios when man kind is making and passing the laws...
So you suspect that it is simply a matter of time when laws are allocated where violence to specific people or to groups of people is in fact, an allocated right?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
a few months ago in Germany and I no longer have the article will look for it though I digress, a brother had an incestuous relationship with his sister had children with her and got away with it.. his lawyer stated 'who are we to define a family unit, or what a family is?' -- we are pushing the envelope, perhaps that is what it means to be cultivated and civilized?
Incidents such as this are not the first and will not be the last.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I see it very likely down the road to kill your neighbor.. after all it started simply enough with folk like you deeming it OK TO HATE YOUR neighbor!
When did 'folk like me' ever declare such? And on what basis could you imagine that such a morally bankrupt law be passed? Many acts allowing increased sexual liberation are based upon the basis that it is none of the government's business and on the advancement of personal liberty.

How exactly would an act allowing you to kill your neighbour be morally right in any way shape or form? How on earth could it be justified? Such an act would be a direct attack on security and liberty.

Originally Posted by syilla
don't they have anything else to do

Other than to make an anti-something which they don't believe and exist anymore.
They might. I don't know.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
When you get offended why people think atheistic people generally are illogical - stuff like this kinda confirms it.
I don't get offended when I am called illogical. I just find contemptible attitudes towards me because of my metaphysical viewpoint rather unfair.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Lets see, your brain, seeing this post thought "Anti-religious, yet free speech, heck why not support it? Technically it harms no law right?". This is not the linking of a rational or logical person.
Whether or not I support this group or not is irrelevant to what reason I gave.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Firstly, is it objective?
You'd need to join and find out.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Can any good come of it?
Don't know. Depends on their purpose. I suspect the 'good' they seek though is 'bad' to some people.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
We can even bet on that the people have a biased understanding of the religion itself. So what good could really come from this? Make some people happy as they throw insults about Islam between them, having a laugh?
I suggest you ask them.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Problems this can cause? Surely, most muslims should feel that their right of practicing Islam is violated by having people ridiculing their way of life, making a public awareness of being against it - for what reason? Probably very bad reasons, based on propaganda. Why should anyone have to have people against their way of life is beyond unfair.
People opposing a way of life is not the same as a government or organisation actively restricting it.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Heck, why don't I make an anti-black people group! Free speech right? Who cares if the black people get offended, aslong as I practice my free speech and I have a nice time having a laugh about black people, where is the harm?
Many communities as you described above do exist.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
So, he compared, wait for it let me get a breath its quite a laugh, criticising an economic system is equal to being AGAINST a religious belief that billion+ people follow as their way of life.
Two questions:

1. Would you tolerate the existence of a group simply criticising Islam. Not attacking the adherents or Muhammad - but criticising it.
2. Do you think people ought to not attack Islam or ought not be against Islam (or any religion for that matter) by law? Or at least not be allowed to create groups which are against religion (or a specific religion?)
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 03:47 AM
Many communities as you described above do exist.
Doesn't make it right, irrelevant if they exist or not.

Two questions:

1. Would you tolerate the existence of a group simply criticising Islam. Not attacking the adherents or Muhammad - but criticising it.
2. Do you think people ought to not attack Islam or ought not be against Islam (or any religion for that matter) by law? Or at least not be allowed to create groups which are against religion (or a specific religion?)
TO #1, if it was constructive criticism (not insulting basless crap), which can be seen as a learning basis even, and not oppositing people to believe it or thinking that it should not exist, I see nothing wrong with it.

To give example, someone could ask me, why our prophet :saw: married a 9 year old? Isn't that wrong? - While I would not appreciate people screaming "PROPHET :SAW: is a child X Y Z" etc..

TO #2, I think speech which can create hatred amongst communites should be against the law. Free speech should have its limits, as with actions. By law many actions by humans are restricted, we don't call it denying human rights do we (take murdering, stealing, and thousands of other things). We make laws to control society. If somthing is destructive/objectivless and can cause only harm, it should be against the law. Not just on religious matters, but on racial issues and so fourth.
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beespreeteam
09-11-2007, 06:43 AM
Trouble for nothing, based on lies. Ignorant people tbh
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guyabano
09-11-2007, 07:11 AM
May I join?

Well, since nobody objects...

IMO, these groups can exist as much as a pro group. Isambard gave a good example: If you like to forbid this group, well, in the christian world, a group of muslims promoting Islam should also be banned then, in Muslim world, same from christian group.
Sad to say, one of the major problems of muslims is this narrow minded thinking: 'You are different from me, so you are evil'.
'You don't like to believe in Allah, so you will rotten in hell'

Well, from the point of view of a different religion, muslims are also disbelievers.

So, can we not just all be freinds and coexist, accept the facts that there will always be people who are different. Wasn't that a 'plan of God' to make the earth colorful instead of just black and white?
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
TO #1, if it was constructive criticism (not insulting basless crap), which can be seen as a learning basis even, and not oppositing people to believe it or thinking that it should not exist, I see nothing wrong with it.
So consider this example:
A group of people who consider religion X to be dangerous and should not exist. This group of people are mature in their conduct. Should this group not exist?

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
To give example, someone could ask me, why our prophet :saw: married a 9 year old? Isn't that wrong? - While I would not appreciate people screaming "PROPHET :SAW: is a child X Y Z" etc..
I agree entirely. But it does not fall under inciting violence, it is just immature mud-slinging.

Do you think that satire/mockery towards religion should be banned?
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Md Mashud
09-11-2007, 08:45 PM
[QUOTE=Skavau;827421]So consider this example:
A group of people who consider religion X to be dangerous and should not exist. This group of people are mature in their conduct. Should this group not exist?


I agree entirely. But it does not fall under inciting violence, it is just immature mud-slinging.

Do you think that satire/mockery towards religion should be banned?[/QUOTE]

Yes to the banning of mockery/satire.

As for if a group thinks a religion is dangerous. What if it really isn't dangerous and they are full of biased stuff. Islam is a religion of peace, why should they go out and offend billions of muslims because they don't know about Islam or didn't care to find out? When you are about to insult a way of life - understand it first.

As for a constructive group, never can an constructive group be called Anti-Islam, it is showing the support for the destruction if Islam. Its not called "Learning Islam" is it or "Questioning Islam" - its Anti-Islam. Why must we continue to mentally masturbate around the subject?

Also, how can PRO-groups be offensive in regarding religion? Makes no sense to me. Who are PRO-groups insulting?
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Skavau
09-11-2007, 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Yes to the banning of mockery/satire.
Then you wish to infringe upon free speech. Should mockery and satire be banned to other things too or just religious ideologies?

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
As for if a group thinks a religion is dangerous. What if it really isn't dangerous and they are full of biased stuff. Islam is a religion of peace, why should they go out and offend billions of muslims because they don't know about Islam or didn't care to find out? When you are about to insult a way of life - understand it first.
This is irrelevant. The group I bring up thoroughly believes the total opposite to what you assert. This specific group goes about their beliefs though in a mature manner. They do not insult the adherents of this religion or mock the religion itself, they simply criticise it. They do however uphold the believe that this religion is dangerous and ought not have any followers.

Why should they be banned? Because they 'offend' people? What if a lot of people are offended by having their political ideology made fun of or criticised? Should therefore satire or criticism of their political ideology be banned?

Freedom of Speech and people getting offended will inevitably happen. People have no right to ban harsh criticism or mockery because it 'offends' them. Sensitivities ought not guide the law.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
As for a constructive group, never can an constructive group be called Anti-Islam, it is showing the support for the destruction if Islam. Its not called "Learning Islam" is it or "Questioning Islam" - its Anti-Islam. Why must we continue to mentally masturbate around the subject?
Referring to this group in the original post - simply because they are Anti-Islam is not warrant to have them banned. It is only warrant if they call for violence or infringe upon the code of conduct outlined in the website they established it on.

And how do you know they aren't constructive? They might actually have very good viewpoints. Or at least maturely constructed viewpoints.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Also, how can PRO-groups be offensive in regarding religion? Makes no sense to me. Who are PRO-groups insulting?
They probably aren't offensive at all.
Reply

جوري
09-11-2007, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Same reason people find moral issues with Christianity and other religions. I presume that this specific group has issues with some of the teachings in Islam.
How is it that you can defend what you don't know then?

As I've said, I suggest you ask them.
I have no interest in loaning groups as such dignity with a Q.


I actually wouldn't. I would defend her integrity.
Just a couple of posts ago,you decided you had thick skin and such happenings didn't move you one way or the other.


So you suspect that it is simply a matter of time when laws are allocated where violence to specific people or to groups of people is in fact, an allocated right?
I don't understand what that means!


Incidents such as this are not the first and will not be the last.
indeed -- what a sad state our world is in!


When did 'folk like me' ever declare such? And on what basis could you imagine that such a morally bankrupt law be passed? Many acts allowing increased sexual liberation are based upon the basis that it is none of the government's business and on the advancement of personal liberty.
You just stated you'd fight for the rights of such groups to do as they please, even if you don't agree with it.. I am just curious as to where you draw the lines? Who defines the lines for you?

H
ow exactly would an act allowing you to kill your neighbour be morally right in any way shape or form? How on earth could it be justified? Such an act would be a direct attack on security and liberty.
I don't know.. I suppose around the same time having an incestuous relationship became justified.. After all who are we to define a 'family unit'?-- That is basically what happens when you push the envelope... what is holding you or anyone back from seeing what next to get away with?
Reply

جوري
09-11-2007, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Such groups have a right to exist as long as they dont break any laws.
The purpose of such a group is to find a way to break the law. Again once you have defined a base line for 'morality' you don't cross it... once you have defined that a circle is round, you can't come and speak of its four sides.. once you have defined that a ring has a hole, you can't come and speak of how it is more of solid coin. Once you have defined that such a group's intent is to vilify, malinger and cause harm, then such a group should not be allowed to be organized.
I can't blame you for having such a jaded sense of justice.. I am not sure where your moral compass comes from?.. so rather I actually understand why you write the things that you do!
How regrettable!
Reply

Isambard
09-11-2007, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
The purpose of such a group is to find a way to break the law. Again once you have defined a base line for 'morality' you don't cross it... once you have defined that a circle is round, you can't come and speak of its four sides.. once you have defined that a ring has a hole, you can't come and speak of how it is more of solid coin. Once you have defined that such a group's intent is to vilify, malinger and cause harm, then such a group should not be allowed to be organized.
I can't blame you for having such a jaded sense of justice.. I am not sure where your moral compass comes from?.. so rather I actually understand why you write the things that you do!
How regrettable!
Umm if you are referring to the facebook group, no its goal is not to break the law, rather to denounce Islam. I would say their message isnt without merit either as islam inherently is an expansionistic ideology with manifest destiny and a self proclaimed goal to censor free-speech, retard women's rights and economy, and create a lower standard of living for christians and jews and a no-no for atheists. Only reason I dont join is because I see the vision of Islam "winning" as a pipedream.

That said, unless you can prove (via quotes from the actual site) that they are promoting violence agaisnt muslims, your claims that said group is inherently about breaking laws is frivolous.

As per your assertation that mu sense of justice is 'jaded' I believe your own bias is creating a double-standard for you that you may not be aware of. Simply put, stop muslims from saying the bible and torah are corrupted and perhaps someone will take you seriously. Honestly, disliking Islam does not make one may wish harm or hold hatred on Muslims themselves just as condemning Israreli occupation does not equate anti-semitism.
Reply

جوري
09-12-2007, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Umm
a resplendent prolegomenon.. I can already tell how much thought is going to be in what follows...

if you are referring to the facebook group, no its goal is not to break the law, rather to denounce Islam.
You are a member, and know of their covert goals?

I would say their message isnt without merit either as islam inherently is an expansionistic ideology with manifest destiny and a self proclaimed goal to censor free-speech,
really where in islam does it say censor free speech? Can we like wise denounce the holocaust and with any hope, have you acclaim our rights to do so with the same bravado?
retard women's rights and economy,
Show me where in Islam it states to 'retard women and economy'.. I got to say I rather enjoy kicking your A$$ with my meager abilities.. I always retreat afterwards though to my meek and feeble Muslim self...
The most 'retarted Muslim woman' I know has a doctorate in pharmacology..What about you, what do you do?
Might be worth your while to read before you write so you are not the butt of jokes?
start here
Muslim women
And some research and studies for your viewing pleasure!
Middle Eastern immigrants were highly educated, with 49 percent holding at least a bachelor's degree, compared to 28 percent of natives.

Median earnings for Middle Eastern men were $39,000 a year compared to $38,000 for native workers.

they tend to be better-educated than native U.S. residents — about half hold bachelor's degrees, compared to 28 percent of natives. They also perform as well economically as natives — 30- and 40-year-old Middle Eastern males with a college education have the same median income as natives, and Middle East immigrants are more likely be self-employed.




Middle Eastern Immigrants in U.S. Educated, Prosperous, Study Says
Gannett News Service, August 15, 2002

(Also ran in Arizona Republic - 8/15)

WASHINGTON — Middle Eastern immigrants in the United States are well educated, earn more money than most Americans and are predominantly Muslim, according to a report released Wednesday.

They also are among the nation's fastest-growing immigrant groups, according to the report issued by the Center for Immigration Studies in Washington, a think tank that supports reducing the number of immigrants to the United States.

The report says the number of Middle Eastern immigrants increased from fewer than 200,000 in 1970 to almost 1.5 million in 2000. The overall number of foreign-born residents in the United States tripled to 31 million over the same period.

The report offers a rare portrait of an immigrant group that has received intense scrutiny and negative publicity since the Sept. 11 attacks.
Project MAPS, a survey of "Muslims in the American Public Square" conducted in 2001-2002 by researchers at Georgetown University, found that 86 percent of all Muslim professionals were concentrated in three careers: engineering, computer science, and medicine. Law, law enforcement, and politics accounted for a minuscule 0.6 percent. American Muslims, some demographers say, have also been voting well below their numbers in the population -- registering to vote at only half the national rate, according to the 2001 American Religious Identification Survey [PDF], a project of the Graduate Center of the City University of New York. "If they ever did play to their weight" in the electoral arena and in Washington, Muslims "would be a much more considerable force in public policy-making," says Steve Clemons, a Democrat who directs the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation in Washington.

http://www.wilsoncenter.org/topics/p...ab_America.pdf
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/mideastcoverage.html
Seems in general the retarted Muslims are doing much better than the natives.. so how about you either do some reading or research before hurl with the usual rhetoric?
and create a lower standard of living for christians and jews and a no-no for atheists. Only reason I dont join is because I see the vision of Islam "winning" as a pipedream.
is this part of the Isambard fairytales..? please let me know when you self publish your various concoctions ! :shade:

That said, unless you can prove (via quotes from the actual site) that they are promoting violence agaisnt muslims, your claims that said group is inherently about breaking laws is frivolous.
I feel the same way about all you write... extravagantly humorous with a complete lack of relevant information or knowledge of the most basic Islamic tenets, or legal philosophies. You are just so silly and unsuccessful with all you write.. I can't imagine why you keep doing it without some minor research in any topic you attempt?

As per your assertation that mu sense of justice is 'jaded'
who is 'mu'? are you the 12th letter of the Greek alphabet?
I believe your own bias is creating a double-standard for you that you may not be aware of.
It is fresh.. an atheist with some beliefs, when did you evolve those? You confuse 'passion' about something to which one has dedicated a great many year pursuing for 'bias'-- I don't imagine you'd relate to that given your superficial knowledge of most any topic you engage!


Simply put, stop muslims from saying the bible and torah are corrupted and perhaps someone will take you seriously.
another incongruous observation that can only invite ridicule and based on a fatigued priori judgment! I don't confer dignity or honor upon anything you write to seek validation from you or your ilk. Further, I am actually home with my clan, thus I believe you are the one averting from your own fatuity!


Honestly, disliking Islam does not make one may wish harm or hold hatred on Muslims themselves just as condemning Israreli occupation does not equate anti-semitism.
Noun: semite
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Middle East and northern Africa...
seems a little preposterous that you'd even use that analogy for an example given the actual literal meaning of the word?... I only used it really to highlight what an ignoramus you are.. that even the examples you give to tie it all together for us are ailing, and nonsensical as your entire philosophy.
Reply

snakelegs
09-12-2007, 12:30 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard

Simply put, stop muslims from saying the bible and torah are corrupted and perhaps someone will take you seriously.
i'm curious - as an atheist, why do you care if muslims say the bible and torah are corrupted?
Reply

The_Prince
09-12-2007, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i'm curious - as an atheist, why do you care if muslims say the bible and torah are corrupted?
hint hint ;)
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i'm curious - as an atheist, why do you care if muslims say the bible and torah are corrupted?
Its not so much I have a problem with muslim theology, I just hate hypocrites
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 01:51 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You are a member, and know of their covert goals?

The article mentioned some of their beliefs, now produce some evidence that they intend physical harm to muslims or you are just pulling stuff out of your rear in regards to your previous statement that they wish to break the law.


really where in islam does it say censor free speech? Can we like wise denounce the holocaust and with any hope, have you acclaim our rights to do so with the same bravado?

Lets see, if I convert to islam, then decide it isnt for me and speak out agaisnt the taught ideology what will happen to me?

Show me where in Islam it states to 'retard women and economy'.. I got to say I rather enjoy kicking your A$$ with my meager abilities.. I always retreat afterwards though to my meek and feeble Muslim self...
The most 'retarted Muslim woman' I know has a doctorate in pharmacology..What about you, what do you do?
Might be worth your while to read before you write so you are not the butt of jokes?

I said retard women's rights and economy. I would comment further but you just pwned yourself. Well done

And some research for your viewing pleasure!

I believe this will help you in further endeavors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension

Seems in general the retarted Muslims are doing much better than the natives.. so how about you either do some reading or research before hurl with the usual rhetoric?

As I have shown, you are fighting windmills

is this part of the Isambard fairytales..? please let me know when you self publish your various concoctions ! :shade:

hmm what is the name of the tax Jews and Christians have to pay under Shar'ia? And to what degree are they allowed to promote their religion?

I feel the same way about all you write... extravagantly humorous with a complete lack of relevant information or knowledge of the most basic Islamic tenets, or legal philosophies. You are just so silly and unsuccessful with all you write.. I can't imagine why you keep doing it without some minor research in any topic you attempt?


I suggest you take your own advice.


It is fresh.. an atheist with some beliefs, when did you evolve those? You confuse 'passion' about something to which one has dedicated a great many year pursuing for 'bias'-- I don't imagine you'd relate to that given your superficial knowledge of most any topic you engage!

"A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a preference to one particular point of view or ideological perspective. However, one is generally only said to be biased if one's powers of judgment are influenced by the biases one holds, to the extent that one's views could not be taken as being neutral or objective, but instead as subjective. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or deny the truth of a claim, not on the basis of the strength of the arguments in support of the claim themselves, but because of the extent of the claim's correspondence with one's own preconceived ideas. This is called confirmation bias."

Lets see, Muslims can create groups on Facebook promoting Islam while denouncing Atheism, while athiests cant create a group promoting atheism and denouncing Islam. You are right, that makes perfect sense and is perfectly fair, how did I ever accuse you of a bias?:rolleyes:

another incongruous observation that can only invite ridicule and based on a fatigued priori judgment! I don't confer dignity or honor upon anything you write to seek validation from you or your ilk. Further, I am actually home with my clan, thus I believe you are the one averting from your own fatuity!

O my! While you were busy exposing and flashing your er..umm "dignity and honour (lol) you forgot to address the point in any sort of relevant way. Its ok, that tends to happen when one has nothing to say.


Noun: semite
A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Middle East and northern Africa...
seems a little preposterous that you'd even use that analogy for an example given the actual literal meaning of the word?... I only used it really to highlight what an ignoramus you are.. that even the examples you give to tie it all together for us are ailing, and nonsensical as your entire philosophy.
Cute, but its a red herring. You complaining about folks not liking Islamic principles and ideology and by default making them dangerous is the same as those who complain that not liking zionism = anti-jewish sentiment ( this is to help you, I know you have trouble focusing on actual points and arguements.).

With that said, I give you this.
http://dev.freeverse.com/~hip/images/pwnage.png

Open with care my dear
Reply

snakelegs
09-12-2007, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Its not so much I have a problem with muslim theology, I just hate hypocrites
isn't it a bit hypocritical for an atheist to object to something in one religion's theology that is saying that scripture in some other religions' scriptures has been corrupted?
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
isn't it a bit hypocritical for an atheist to object to something in one religion's theology that is saying that scripture in some other religions' scriptures has been corrupted?
Well, you could always substitue it with theists saying that Atheists are amoral/immoral and just live to satisfy their urges.
Reply

snakelegs
09-12-2007, 01:56 AM
how is that hypocritical? it is just their belief.
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
how is that hypocritical? it is just their belief.
They are allowed to express their belief that we are immoral. Why cant others express their belief that Muhammed wasnt a nice guy?
Reply

جوري
09-12-2007, 02:34 AM
The article mentioned some of their beliefs, now produce some evidence that they intend physical harm to muslims or you are just pulling stuff out of your rear in regards to your previous statement that they wish to break the law.
I didn't say 'physical harm'-- breaking the laws can take many forms, and I believe I have given plenty examples how to scaveau a couple of posts ago, I don't enjoy repeating myself!



Lets see, if I convert to islam, then decide it isnt for me and speak out agaisnt the taught ideology what will happen to me?

You should read the chapter in its regard also on this forum to understand the jurisprudence and the ruling per case.. the laws of an Islamic state are no different than the laws of the U.S. in terms of treasons.. http://www.citypaper.net/articles/20...19/cover.shtml
go ahead and read about the Rosenbergs before you rear your pompous *** it would actually do you some good to read in general



I said retard women's rights and economy. I would comment further but you just pwned yourself. Well done
I don't know what 'pwned' means to care really one way or the other..and again show me where in Islam it is condoned to retard women's rights and the economy... this time actually do read about the role of Muslim women in an Islamic state, so we aren't constantly engaging in this petitio principii! early Muslim women



I believe this will help you in further endeavors
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension

No it really doesn't!


As I have shown, you are fighting windmills
where have you shown me that?



hmm what is the name of the tex Jews and Christians have to pay under Shar'ia? And to what degree are they allowed to promote their religion?
How much tax do you pay to Canada or the United States? You are a citizen of a country you pay its taxes..Muslims don't pay it because they have to perform mandatory charity plus they go to war,which no Jew or Christian under an Islamic state is to be drafted in. Thus they get to have their cake and eat it to. I fail to see your point yet again! :coolalien



"A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a preference to one particular point of view or ideological perspective. However, one is generally only said to be biased if one's powers of judgment are influenced by the biases one holds, to the extent that one's views could not be taken as being neutral or objective, but instead as subjective. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or deny the truth of a claim, not on the basis of the strength of the arguments in support of the claim themselves, but because of the extent of the claim's correspondence with one's own preconceived ideas. This is called confirmation bias."

what a bunch of plagiarized rubbish, given your aptitude, is probably mystery even to your person..try to exercise cognitive conservatism a little less, so you wouldn't be so overstrung all the time looking for definitions on wiki. They might just take the site down and then your insta 'intelligence' will be lost in some dark cyber crevice; and then what will you do to back up your trivial objections?


Lets see, Muslims can create groups on Facebook promoting Islam while denouncing Atheism, while athiests cant create a group promoting atheism and denouncing Islam. You are right, that makes perfect sense and is perfectly fair, how did I ever accuse you of a bias?
I don't know any Muslim groups that congregates to oppose atheism... unless they were threatening in nature, then fighting them would be mandatory...Simply, no one cares for Atheists. They are a negligible percentage of the population, that no one bothers with, unless they impose their presence en masse to implement some sort of hateful agenda.



O my! While you were busy exposing and flashing your er..umm "dignity and honour (lol) you forgot to address the point in any sort of relevant way. Its ok, that tends to happen when one has nothing to say.
I honestly wish you had a point instead of bunk!


Cute, but its a red herring. You complaining about folks not liking Islamic principles and ideology and by default making them dangerous is the same as those who complain that not liking zionism = anti-jewish sentiment ( this is to help you, I know you have trouble focusing on actual points and arguements.).
I have never complained.. if I wanted to, I'd visit the atheist forum, the Christian forum, the Jewish forum etc and hurl it out there the way you do here.. and I know incisively what you were educing the first round.. I just wanted to highlight, how even your analogies are as light in the head as everything else you disgorge..

With that said, I give you this.
http://dev.freeverse.com/~hip/images/pwnage.png

Open with care my dear
How droll-- I always take care, but I am not your dear, so take no liberties when addressing me!... Now if you'll excuse me I am about to watch an adaptation of Harper lee's, and as amusing as this all was... it is just not worth the web space!

taaaaaaaa
Reply

Skavau
09-12-2007, 03:11 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
How is it that you can defend what you don't know then?
I'm defending the right of an Anti-Islamic group (none in particular) to exist.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Just a couple of posts ago,you decided you had thick skin and such happenings didn't move you one way or the other.
When it comes to insults towards me, yes.

I would defend my mother though if she was insulted. I would though never resort to violence to defend her though.

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I don't understand what that means!
You think it is only a matter of time before violence towards anyone becomes a right?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
You just stated you'd fight for the rights of such groups to do as they please, even if you don't agree with it.. I am just curious as to where you draw the lines? Who defines the lines for you?
When it infringes upon the rights of others. That is line drawn. I am very much a Libertarian.
Reply

snakelegs
09-12-2007, 03:18 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
They are allowed to express their belief that we are immoral. Why cant others express their belief that Muhammed wasnt a nice guy?
you just did! :D
i haven't read the articles the group posted. in fact, i never even heard of facebook until today. so i can't judge it specifically. i wouldn't even have gotten involved in this thread but your post caught my eye.
an atheist complaining that one religion considers other religions' scriptures as corrupt was toooooo much for me.
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I didn't say 'physical harm'-- breaking the laws can take many forms, and I believe I have given plenty examples how to scaveau a couple of posts ago, I don't enjoy repeating myself!



Alright, quote some of their tenents that show they intend to break the law.

You should read the chapter in its regard also on this forum to understand the jurisprudence and the ruling per case.. the laws of an Islamic state are no different than the laws of the U.S. in terms of treasons.. http://www.citypaper.net/articles/20...19/cover.shtml
go ahead and read about the Rosenbergs before you rear your pompous *** it would actually do you some good to read in general


How is speaking out agaisnt an ideology a form of treason? Or is it ok to employ McCarthy Era tactics agaisnt any and all who dislike capitolism and Americanism?


I don't know what 'pwned' means to care really one way or the other..and again show me where in Islam it is condoned to retard women's rights and the economy... this time actually do read about the role of Muslim women in an Islamic state, so we aren't constantly engaging in this petitio principii! early Muslim women


This is simple to demonstrate. Go outside and ask non-muslim women how eager they are to give up their right of freedom of dress. For more of a giggle, also ask them how eager they are to give up freedom of a proper education (for Afgany Shar'ia) or freedom to drive (for Saudi Shar'ia) etc.



No it really doesn't!

Really? I thought confusing women's rights with simply women is pretty bad. Perhaps you were just doing some selective reading eh?


where have you shown me that?


The whole shpiel about Islamic women being retarded when I was talking about women's right.


How much tax do you pay to Canada or the United States? You are a citizen of a country you pay its taxes..Muslims don't pay it because they have to perform mandatory charity plus they go to war,which no Jew or Christian under an Islamic state is to be drafted in. Thus they get to have their cake and eat it to. I fail to see your point yet again! :coolalien


Of course you did, you did more selective reading. Check out my second question about how many christians and jews are allowed to promote their religion under Shari'a law.



what a bunch of plagiarized rubbish, given your aptitude, is probably mystery even to your person..try to exercise cognitive conservatism a little less, so you wouldn't be so overstrung all the time looking for definitions on wiki. They might just take the site down and then your insta 'intelligence' will be lost in some dark cyber crevice; and then what will you do to back up your trivial objections?

Spraying venom help noone. How about address the issue? I dont know, perhaps its just me, but I think it makes for a much stronger point :coolious:

I don't know any Muslim groups that congregates to oppose atheism... unless they were threatening in nature, then fighting them would be mandatory...Simply, no one cares for Atheists. They are a negligible percentage of the population, that no one bothers with, unless they impose their presence en masse to implement some sort of hateful agenda.

Funny, they seem to care on facebook. Why looking at it now there seems to be a number of groups with the simple title of "F--- Atheism"



I honestly wish you had a point instead of bunk!


I did, and you failed to address it.

I have never complained.. if I wanted to, I'd visit the atheist forum, the Christian forum, the Jewish forum etc and hurl it out there the way you do here.. and I know incisively what you were educing the first round.. I just wanted to highlight, how even your analogies are as light in the head as everything else you disgorge..

Another red herring.

How droll-- I always take care, but I am not your dear, so take no liberties when addressing me!... Now if you'll excuse me I am about to watch an adaptation of Harper lee's, and as amusing as this all was... it is just not worth the web space!

taaaaaaaa
It brings a smile to my face and a little glow to my heart knowing that you opened it :D

That said, I too enjoyed our little forum acrobatics and sparring, even if it was little more than a stetch for me.

Good night :peace:
Reply

جوري
09-12-2007, 05:34 AM
I can't say that like wise I enjoyed it.. anymore than your piteous endeavors at adult communication. You don't reason well, I suspect since all your info either comes from wiki or your ten o'clock news? That is if in fact you watch it in full so on some level it would amend and reflect in your thought processes and written word... your wit is sophomoric at best.. that aside you'd be glad to know that western women who embrace Islam convert at a rate of 5-1 .. I suppose they are not all suffering your brand of cachinnation?.. civility, intellect and women's rights believe it or not isn't contingent upon how much clothes you take off or put on. In fact, it is mandatory of Jews as well as christians observe the same dress code!
Curious .. have you ever lived in saudi Arabia?-- I have lived there for four years and I guarantee, the lowliest scullery maid is still better educated than you...
and on a last note.. neither Saudi Arabia, nor Afghanistan follow shari3a law... Again some proper reasoning and even light reading would evince that, in an Islamic state there is a khilafah not a monarchy!

The highlight of my evening was to kill a mocking bird..regrettably, your brand of entertainment couldn't butter your bread, thus I hope you invest in some basic vocational training to foster self esteem!
taa
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-12-2007, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
This Anti-Muslim group has all right to exist. As long as this particular group is not infringing upon Facebook's code of conduct or inciting violence there is no issue (or ought not to be).

There should be no special treatment allocated.
no it dosn't, not in the least. all i can say is, take a hike already.
Reply

aamirsaab
09-12-2007, 09:21 AM
:sl:
Meh, I've seen most of those hate-sites on facebook (and on the rest of the WWW), and if you've seen one, you've seen them all. Sad, pathetic, waste of time.

Move along, move along.
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 02:25 PM


I see you've completely given up on discussion and instead turned to flinging insults and lording your ego. Thats fine. Given your lack of evidence supporting your evidence I guess there is little else to do. Atm I feel like some good discussion with real points so I guess I'm done with you until you can come up with a coherent retort that is in anyways relevant to the topic.
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Meh, I've seen most of those hate-sites on facebook (and on the rest of the WWW), and if you've seen one, you've seen them all. Sad, pathetic, waste of time.

Move along, move along.

A shame more people dont have your attitute. The first rule of the internet is DONT FEED THE TROLLS.

Im trying to find said offensive group (F-- Islam) and it seems in the heat of the debate there has been a number of copycats in the spirit of trolling and flamming.

To quote Zero Punctuation (favorite e-ranter) "the crowd online can at best be described as lively, and at worst, as a bunch of hooting ******!"

That said, there does some to be some level of fairness.

Looking at just the first 10pgs of 60 or so pgs of hits for my search, I see
F Atheists
F Jews
F Creater of the group we are discussing
F all religious ppl
F anyone who likes Dawkins
F Americans
F ninjas
etc.

Dont feed the trolls folks. Its dangerous to your health!
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 02:43 PM
I found the group.

"The Quran contains many lies and threats. Islam is false, no god exists, and someone should say that loud and clear. Heaven and hell are fables, prayer is a waste of time, and angels and jinn are obviously mythology.
This is not a group against Muslims. They have it bad enough. If you doubt that go to Palestine. If you hate Muslims or are here to harrass them or promote your religion, go away. Muslims can be and usually are peaceful and respectful.
The best thing for the whole world is a rej
ection of all religions and a renewed discovery of the love for humanity and naturalism.
F Christianity and Judaism as well. These religions are just as false and have a variety of disadvantages. There are other groups devoted to each of these false ideologies. Here is one devoted to religion in general: http://unm.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2225572075
and here is one for Christianity: http://unm.facebook.com/group.php?gid=5857745671"

Seems like nothing more than a group of secular humanists have a problem with religion. Whats so offensive about it?
Reply

Zman
09-12-2007, 04:00 PM
:sl:
There should be no special treatment allocated
I keep reading about how Islam & Muslims shouldn't get "special treatment," or be "appeased," or have laws "changed" for us, or "infringing on their freedom of speech," etc.

Yet, you can't say anything about Jews, or you're labeled as an anti-Semite and you have your credibility destroyed.

You can't say anything negative about African-Americans, or else.

You can't say anything about women, or else.

You can't say anything about gays, or else.

And so on.

That's special treatment and had laws created to specifically deal with them and their violaters.

What a load of crap. Their hypocrisy is absolutely nauseating...
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by Zman
:sl:


I keep reading about how Islam & Muslims shouldn't get "special treatment," or be "appeased," or have laws "changed" for us, or "infringing on their freedom of speech," etc.

Yet, you can't say anything about Jews, or you're labeled as an anti-Semite and you have your credibility destroyed.

You can't say anything negative about African-Americans, or else.

You can't say anything about women, or else.

You can't say anything about gays, or else.

And so on.

That's special treatment and had laws created to specifically deal with them and their violaters.

What a load of crap. Their hypocrisy is absolutely nauseating...
How is confounding the problem going to lead to a solution?
Reply

InToTheRain
09-12-2007, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Seems like nothing more than a group of secular humanists have a problem with religion. Whats so offensive about it?
If some one finds something offensive who are you to try and enforce your opinion on them and tell them they are wrong in finding it offensive and you are right?

I will repeat what I said in another post:

[PIE]I remember during my work Induction, when talking about conduct towards colleagues, we discussed where to draw the line between socially acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The answer was it varies for every individual, you may be able to say things that appear as a joke or jest to some and to others it is offensive and harmful. I myself at work or at home, many times made comments which I thought were justified and acceptable only to learn that the person listening did not see it in the same light therefore I apologise promptly as that was not my intention. I could have gone in the other direction, insisting I was right, but man that never leads to any constructive development in relationship with others. Similiarly the people in Denmark who have hurt the feelings of billions of Muslims is socially unacceptable whatever their intentions may have been and it is only natural for them to apologise.

Non-Muslims should bear in mind we are taught to Love and respect our prophet(Peace be upon them) to such an extent we do not associate lies with them or entertain ourselves or make jokes of them at their expense. You can say we are being shallow minded in comparison to other religious groups but that argument flies on both sides as we can say the ones offending us have little or no knowledge of what they were about. They are a mercy from Allah(SWT) upon mankind, and to make fun of them is to make fun of God. We Muslims loathe anyone who does this to any of our Prophets at the same time aknowledging they do nothing but spit at a fan.
I Urge all non-Muslims, regardless of what you think of the matter as it would be a kindness on your part and a sacrifice for the greater good, to stop encouraging such things as it does nothing but harm our relationship.
[/PIE]

It just frustrates me that these sites, so full of BS, get publicity- In an Islamic Forum No less LOL. Although I did enjoy Sister PurestAmbrosias and Snakelegs Posts :thumbs_up ;D

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
Meh, I've seen most of those hate-sites on facebook (and on the rest of the WWW), and if you've seen one, you've seen them all. Sad, pathetic, waste of time.

Move along, move along.
You know waddam Sayyeen :X
Reply

Isambard
09-12-2007, 05:48 PM
Thats nice. The group if promoting secular humanism and saying what is an inherent to any non-muslim. (That Muhammed wasnt a prophet, that everything in said ideology is a myth etc.)

How is it offensive to expess ones views? It seems folks have a problem that non-muslims exist as opposed to anything about the group itself
Reply

Skavau
09-12-2007, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
no it dosn't, not in the least. all i can say is, take a hike already.
Well I can see the extensive and detailed reason given there.

Why should this particular Anti-Islamic group not exist or why should Anti-Islam groups not exist at all?

Originally Posted by Zman
I keep reading about how Islam & Muslims shouldn't get "special treatment," or be "appeased," or have laws "changed" for us, or "infringing on their freedom of speech," etc.
Yes.

Originally Posted by Zman
Yet, you can't say anything about Jews, or you're labeled as an anti-Semite and you have your credibility destroyed.
Show me an example.

Originally Posted by Zman
You can't say anything negative about African-Americans, or else.
Yes you can.

Originally Posted by Zman
You can't say anything about women, or else.
Yes you can.

Originally Posted by Zman
You can't say anything about gays, or else.
Yes you can.


Originally Posted by Z.Al-Rashid
I remember during my work Induction, when talking about conduct towards colleagues, we discussed where to draw the line between socially acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The answer was it varies for every individual, you may be able to say things that appear as a joke or jest to some and to others it is offensive and harmful. I myself at work or at home, many times made comments which I thought were justified and acceptable only to learn that the person listening did not see it in the same light therefore I apologise promptly as that was not my intention. I could have gone in the other direction, insisting I was right, but man that never leads to any constructive development in relationship with others. Similiarly the people in Denmark who have hurt the feelings of billions of Muslims is socially unacceptable whatever their intentions may have been and it is only natural for them to apologise.
This is dangerous stuff. It leads to censorship based on fear of offense. If a person for example has a thoroughly negative view of Muhammad and wants to express such a view in either artwork or literature - he or she should be able to do so irrespective of the feelings of a particular group. Such is the freedom of expression that ought to exist.

Freedom of speech means immediately that some people are inevitably going to get offended or find fault. If you censor speech based on 'offense' then ultimately you lose a good amount of criticism on all things.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-13-2007, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by Skavau
Well I can see the extensive and detailed reason given there.
Why should this particular Anti-Islamic group not exist or why should Anti-Islam groups not exist at all?
Because islam is the only true religion. short and sweet. anti-islamic groups or otherwise you cant wipe islam off the face of the earth.
Reply

Isambard
09-13-2007, 04:33 AM
[QUOTE=maryam11;828159]
Originally Posted by Skavau
Well I can see the extensive and detailed reason given there.

Why should this particular Anti-Islamic group not exist or why should Anti-Islam groups not exist at all?

Because islam is the only true religion. short and sweet. anti-islamic groups or otherwise you cant wipe islam off the face of the earth.
How is the group "anti-Islamic"? It merely promotes secular humanism. That said, Ill say wait and see in terms of weather or not Islam gets wiped out. So many cultures and religions ahve claimed to be eternal and time made hypocrites of them all :D
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-13-2007, 04:59 AM
How is the group "anti-Islamic"? It merely promotes secular humanism. That said, Ill say wait and see in terms of weather or not Islam gets wiped out. So many cultures and religions ahve claimed to be eternal and time made hypocrites of them all :D
yeah, we sure will. but what are you going to do if you miss the boat.
Reply

Isambard
09-13-2007, 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by maryam11
yeah, we sure will. but what are you going to do if you miss the boat.
Well, to be honest, Ive given consideration to Islam being a true religion and what I would do if it were the case. After much deliberation I decided that even if I found out 2morrow Islam is true, I would curse God until I died, then curse some more while I sat in hell.

I have no option to opt out of eternity and enjoy oblivion, then why worship a being who seeks to torture me regardless of the my actions?
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-13-2007, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Well, to be honest, Ive given consideration to Islam being a true religion and what I would do if it were the case. After much deliberation I decided that even if I found out 2morrow Islam is true, I would curse God until I died, then curse some more while I sat in hell.

I have no option to opt out of eternity and enjoy oblivion, then why worship a being who seeks to torture me regardless of the my actions?
well what use would that be. you can curse all you lke, you can't turn it around.
regardless of your actions??? no no, you got it wrong. why would so many uslims be fasting today/tomarrow if they were going to hell, regardless if they fasted or not. same applies to every other act of worship. whats the point of that. why would we be doing acts of worhip, in hope of reaching paradise, if we are going to be condemed to hell, regardless of or actions??
Reply

Md Mashud
09-13-2007, 06:30 AM
Isaambard, does it ever occur to you - that how comes some people wouldn't curse god knowing Islam is true? It is a lack of unsterstanding without a doubt, you are seeing the World through a broken lens.

Atleast understand, why you feel soo "tortured" while muslims don't? Was we given some drug to make us that way which you didn't?

Its an understanding thing, not an opinion thing.
Reply

Skavau
09-13-2007, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
Because islam is the only true religion. short and sweet. anti-islamic groups or otherwise you cant wipe islam off the face of the earth.
The point here regarding Islam's supposed truth and Islam's supposed infallibility is irrelevant. Why should something being a 'fact' mean there cannot be any opposition to it?

Your assertion rests on your opinion that Islam is true. Lots of other people (about 80% of the globe) do not think so.
Reply

Isambard
09-13-2007, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by maryam11
well what use would that be. you can curse all you lke, you can't turn it around.
regardless of your actions??? no no, you got it wrong. why would so many uslims be fasting today/tomarrow if they were going to hell, regardless if they fasted or not. same applies to every other act of worship. whats the point of that. why would we be doing acts of worhip, in hope of reaching paradise, if we are going to be condemed to hell, regardless of or actions??
I dont think you understand, eternity of anything is hell. I dont feel like living forever, Id rather just be left alone to fade away. Why worship a deity who gives me nothing I want?
Reply

Isambard
09-13-2007, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Isaambard, does it ever occur to you - that how comes some people wouldn't curse god knowing Islam is true? It is a lack of unsterstanding without a doubt, you are seeing the World through a broken lens.

Atleast understand, why you feel soo "tortured" while muslims don't? Was we given some drug to make us that way which you didn't?

Its an understanding thing, not an opinion thing.
I dont think those ppl grasped what eternity means and how our pleasure/ happiness works.

That said, this si gettng offtopic. If youd like to discuss this further Id be happy to on anoher thread
Reply

Intisar
09-13-2007, 10:07 PM
:uuh: :sl: Istaqhfurallah, istaqhfurallah..may Allah guide the misguided to the righteous path of Al-Islaam..! Ignorance is truly wrong, and the person who made this group is ignorant of the beauty of Al-Islaam. :cry: I also pray that Allah guides those defending the group founder insha'allah Ta'ala.
Reply

barney
09-13-2007, 10:20 PM
Does the site encourage violent attacks on Muslims? If so- close it down & jail the criminals who have put it up.

Is the site saying, Allah dosnt exist and mohammed was a murderer based on their reading of scripture?

Thats their right to free speech, wether they are correct or not.

Simply open a facebook page saying Allah is real and Mohammed was the most perfect Human.
Would you then like to see that page attacked for existing?
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 02:14 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Does the site encourage violent attacks on Muslims? If so- close it down & jail the criminals who have put it up.

Is the site saying, Allah dosnt exist and mohammed was a murderer based on their reading of scripture?

Thats their right to free speech, wether they are correct or not.

Simply open a facebook page saying Allah is real and Mohammed was the most perfect Human.
Would you then like to see that page attacked for existing?
I pasted what the group says in Reply #51 p4. They dont even say Muhammed was a murderer. The article is making up BS in the hopes of rousing others to actions.
Reply

Md Mashud
09-14-2007, 03:10 AM
Anti-Islam is just bad anyway. Similar to Anti-White, Anti-Black, Anti-Jew, Anti-Christianity, Pro-9/11, Pro-SuicideBomb.

Yes, you can say they are all opinions and criticisers - but then you would be a blind fool. They are offensive period which could cause ratial, political or religious hatred, end of - nothing productive could ever come out of any of these - to discuss further into it is just a mental masturbation game of running in circles, and if anyone wishes to enage in that I kindly ask that you try go outside a little :|?
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:26 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Anti-Islam is just bad anyway. Similar to Anti-White, Anti-Black, Anti-Jew, Anti-Christianity, Pro-9/11, Pro-SuicideBomb.

Yes, you can say they are all opinions and criticisers - but then you would be a blind fool. They are offensive period which could cause ratial, political or religious hatred, end of - nothing productive could ever come out of any of these - to discuss further into it is just a mental masturbation game of running in circles, and if anyone wishes to enage in that I kindly ask that you try go outside a little :|?
Except Islam is an ideology that can be abandoned and as such no way comparable to Racism. Its like being Anti-communist, anti-Nazi, anti-capitolist etc.

As I said before, it would seem the only offense these folks commited is showing muslims other view pts exist.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-14-2007, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
I dont think you understand, eternity of anything is hell. I dont feel like living forever, Id rather just be left alone to fade away. Why worship a deity who gives me nothing I want?
what?? are you for real. gives you nothing you want?? thats why when you really need something you raise your hadns to the sky and beg, huh??
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by maryam11
what?? are you for real. gives you nothing you want?? thats why when you really need something you raise your hadns to the sky and beg, huh??
When have I done this?

(Prayers to Santa excluded)
Reply

Md Mashud
09-14-2007, 03:43 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Except Islam is an ideology that can be abandoned and as such no way comparable to Racism. Its like being Anti-communist, anti-Nazi, anti-capitolist etc.

As I said before, it would seem the only offense these folks commited is showing muslims other view pts exist.
Not comparable? Go ask any Muslim - if he will be more offended if you made a remark of his skin colour or if you made one of his religion. Go ask before you make assumptions. Go ask other religious people, go ahead. Id rather have people make a remark about a physical trait rather than my fatih - my way of life.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:50 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Not comparable? Go ask any Muslim - if he will be more offended if you made a remark of his skin colour or if you made one of his religion. Go ask before you make assumptions. Go ask other religious people, go ahead. Id rather have people make a remark about a physical trait rather than my fatih - my way of life.
If it is so offensive, why am I even allowed on the boards? I am a self-proclaimed atheist and as such inherently deny everything you believe. By having 'Atheist' under the religion I am showing I openly disagree with your ideology, which is exactly the same as the group did.

Why arnt you showing hostility to me?
Reply

Md Mashud
09-14-2007, 03:52 AM
You are tolerant of Islam, thats why. We are talking about tolerance. Anti-Anything is intolerance. Its not the same thing as not believing in Islam and mocking Islam, insulting their ways etc. Their is definatly a clear differential.

If you was insulting to Islam openly here, you will definatly get hostile responses. Saying "I don't believe in Islam" is not insulting, thats just a personal belief of yourself. If you said "Muslims are dirty suicide bombers, terrorirsts etc", well, thats another story.

Lets not pretend these groups are civil, that is going in those circles of mental masturbation. The intention is clearcut.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-14-2007, 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
When have I done this?

(Prayers to Santa excluded)
it is well known that when one goes through something bryoind his capability to handle, he prays to god. whether he recognizes this god to be a rock, or other wise. you'll see, it'll come back, if it hasn't already.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
You are tolerant of Islam, thats why. We are talking about tolerance. Anti-Anything is intolerance. Its not the same thing as not believing in Islam and mocking Islam, insulting their ways etc. Their is definatly a clear differential.

If you was insulting to Islam openly here, you will definatly get hostile responses. Saying "I don't believe in Islam" is not insulting, thats just a personal belief of yourself. If you said "Muslims are dirty suicide bombers, terrorirsts etc", well, thats another story.

Lets not pretend these groups are civil, that is going in those circles of mental masturbation. The intention is clearcut.
What intention and lack of disrespect are you talking about? The intend and msg of the group have been posted in reply #51 (p4). The msg is simply "We feel Islam is wrong, love others". There is no difference between my expression of lack of faith and there's.

If I am mistaken, plz quote and highlight something in their msg that is different from what I would say if you asked me about my opinion of Islam.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by maryam11
it is well known that when one goes through something bryoind his capability to handle, he prays to god. whether he recognizes this god to be a rock, or other wise. you'll see, it'll come back, if it hasn't already.
Ive been thru many a troubling times (and am still currently). I still feel no desire to pray to a god.
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
09-14-2007, 04:04 AM
nope, but you implid in a previous post that you prayed to santa. it goes to show that you believe somewhere deep down of a diety.
Reply

Md Mashud
09-14-2007, 04:20 AM
Defintion: Anti - Opposed to somthing.

Defintion: Opposed - Acting against or in opposition.

Hmm, against or opposition to Islam? What does that mean? Opposing its existance?...

Somehow, Anti-Islam group - would be insulting to me.

Oh, btw:

The administrator of a Facebook group called **** Islam had his account suspended, according to Mashable. The administrator’s account was suspended apparently after Facebook’s attention was called to the group by a petition signed by 58,000 of the service’s users.
Ahem, peaceful? I doubt it. Btw, that blanked out word begins with F and ends with uck and is not firetruck.

Infact, reading alot into it, no one proclaimed its peace, it clearly seemed to give a hateful message, stated by pretty much every source.

Btw,
The Quran contains many lies and threats.
This is a bold statement considering they have not an atom of proof of these insulting allegations.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 04:35 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Defintion: Anti - Opposed to somthing.

Defintion: Opposed - Acting against or in opposition.

Hmm, against or opposition to Islam? What does that mean? Opposing its existance?...

Somehow, Anti-Islam group - would be insulting to me.

Oh, btw:



Ahem, peaceful? I doubt it. Btw, that blanked out word begins with F and ends with uck and is not firetruck.

Infact, reading alot into it, no one proclaimed its peace, it clearly seemed to give a hateful message, stated by pretty much every source.


Except the original source, WHICH I PROVIDED
Btw,

This is a bold statement considering they have not an atom of proof of these insulting allegations.
If an atheist considered the Qur'an a book of truths, he would cease to be an atheist wouldnt he?

As per threats, what exactly is it that God says he'll do to unbelievers again?

The entire thing was overhyped coupled with a victem complex. I have yet to see how or why this group should be shut down unless one cant understand there are opposing views.
Reply

Skavau
09-14-2007, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Yes, you can say they are all opinions and criticisers - but then you would be a blind fool. They are offensive period which could cause ratial, political or religious hatred, end of - nothing productive could ever come out of any of these - to discuss further into it is just a mental masturbation game of running in circles, and if anyone wishes to enage in that I kindly ask that you try go outside a little :|?
I suggest then that you accept that there are people who do believe Islam is entirely false and do believe it is dangerous. These people that believe such are not necessarily violent or hating Muslims, they are merely showing contempt towards the ideology.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
You are tolerant of Islam, thats why. We are talking about tolerance. Anti-Anything is intolerance. Its not the same thing as not believing in Islam and mocking Islam, insulting their ways etc. Their is definatly a clear differential.
This is a case of horrendous political correctness. You do not, I do not and no-one has to be tolerant of anything and no-one has to respect anything. It is the most horrendous insult to freedom of expression in the modern age that such 'tolerance' and 'respect' to all ideologies (although it is usually referred to religious faiths) has to exist amongst people. It does not.

Anyone can respect your right to have specific beliefs but it does not mean that we have to respect those actual beliefs. By asserting that all 'intolerance' or 'disrespect' should be banned is condemnable.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Lets not pretend these groups are civil, that is going in those circles of mental masturbation. The intention is clearcut.
That is your big flaw. You simply can't understand the possibility of this being a civil group.

Even Stormfront is a civil group (at least concerning the administrators, moderators and veteran members). The ones who run the place.

Originally Posted by Md Mashud
Defintion: Anti - Opposed to somthing.

Defintion: Opposed - Acting against or in opposition.

Hmm, against or opposition to Islam? What does that mean? Opposing its existance?...
Opposing Islam does not necessarily opposing its universal existence. It could imply the opposition of the rise of Islam in specific countries, for example.
Reply

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