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Abdul(Kai),Finn
09-11-2007, 09:04 AM
SEE MODEL-PICTURE IN : http://desertsgreen.angelfire.com/blog/

In Sahara there is these huge "pools", higher ground surrounded lower areas which are these huge "pools" on desert, that some has even big areas under sea-level in bottom of these "pools". These pools mostly are located very near coast-line, and with pumps and pipes of few hundred kilometers these "pools" could be filled with sea-water, until vaporizing (increasing while wideness of "pools" would expand) would match water flowing in, when surface of "pools" would stop rising and around them would be coming huge oasis’s (as sand filters salt from sea-water, when few meters from coast of these "pools" would be easy to get fresh water with dwells and pumps), and these oasis’s could reach kilometers inland as water travels far away in sand. For agricultural activities and inhabitation there would be huge areas to be used, these "pools" would be biggest lakes in the world.

But real meaning of these pools would be elsewhere, because vaporizing from those would be huge in world’s warmest areas with most heat radiation from sun (without clouds). Water-steam would for clouds filled with water, that would be going with major winds to south and east (for example as turned by coriolis-force) into mountains middle of Sahara and mountains west in Arabian peninsula, forming rains at least finally there. It would form rivers and lakes into area, from which there is obvious signs around mountains in middle of Sahara from past times (from last ice age, when Sahara was inhabited by black Africans).

Reason why these "pools" would change situation so radically is that air-masses rise to upper layers of atmosphere from equator, until arriving to north and coming down at 30´-line east-west (at coast of Libya/Egypt), and go from there as winds we notice to south and north, leaving winds going south without moisture from Mediterranean Sea, as winds going to north (Europe) will have all of it. So only way to get moisture to Sahara is to move water-masses from Mediterranean Sea to these "pools" under this 30´-line to vaporize (Mediterranean Sea will have water more through Gibraltar straits from Atlantic).

Only "bad" effect this could have would be destruction of unhabited waste-land desert, when besides worthless deserts there would be lots of land suitable for agricultural and living use, providing living for millions of unemployment workers and people without land (believe me, deserts will be green as long as they get enough water, seeds for plants have come there by wind, in nature-document water was poured in top of dune and green plant rose from it, dying without water until it got more water and got back to life). Here would be huge opportunities for profits, buy worthless desert and change it for agricultural use, even possibly oil could be drilled from bottom of these pools and transported by pipes going under water and deserts as sand moves and buries pipes (no danger of sabotage). Also water pumping from under Libyan desert, that is in danger as water is decreasing, would get more fresh water below desert sand from these pools.

Why should we go into this project?

We need more agricultural and green areas to fight food and water crises, and to fight against population growth and climate problems. If mankind is on earth during next ice age (signs from it already there, like Golf-stream slowing down 20% in last five years period, some scientist predict that Britain might have climate of Alaska in next 20 years), deserts of Arabs (Sahara+Middle-East) is going to be green, as they were during last ice age when black Africans inhabited even nowadays deserts of Libya. This has been mentioned in prophecy and hadith of prophet Mohammed (pbuh), as he said that "deserts of Arabs will once again be filled with rivers and gardens". Noticeably there is for example satellite pictures taken from Saudi-Arabian desert, In these pictures anyone can clearly see old river streams going under desert, and from there founded remains of gardens and agricultural activity. So Mohammed (pbuh) knew without proofs that during last ice age area was green, And so it will be during next ice age after change in climate and rainfalls. But this prophecy does not exclude possibility that humans themselves could make them green, as their actions would anyway be originated from Allah.

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Abdul(Kai),Finn
09-11-2007, 09:16 AM
BTW. That "National Geography" is about fact that they replied to me personally and said that they have put "Committee of Research and Exploration" to study possibilities in this my idea....
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Woodrow
09-11-2007, 09:29 AM
I have one concern and that is this:

Only "bad" effect this could have would be destruction of unhabited waste-land desert, when besides worthless deserts there would be lots of land suitable for agricultural and living use, providing living for millions of unemployment workers and people without land (believe me, deserts will be green as long as they get enough water, seeds for plants have come there by wind, in nature-document water was poured in top of dune and green plant rose from it, dying without water until it got more water and got back to life). Here would be huge opportunities for profits, buy worthless desert and change it for agricultural use, even possibly oil could be drilled from bottom of these pools and transported by pipes going under water and deserts as sand moves and buries pipes (no danger of sabotage). Also water pumping from under Libyan desert, that is in danger as water is decreasing, would get more fresh water below desert sand from these pools.
The deserts are very instrumental in the world wide weather patterns and help determine the direction of the prevailing winds. The "Greening of the Sahara" would have a world wide effect on the weather world wide. I think this is something that needs to be looked into further, to determine if the overall effect would benefit or offset the local advantages.
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Tania
09-11-2007, 10:12 AM
But the weather is changing so why not just leave the desert on his own and see what will happen :? In my country will be nine deserts, according some british sutides :(. This might become true because we had over 40celsius degrees this summer.
May be the african deserts just will dissapear
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Abdul(Kai),Finn
09-11-2007, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I have one concern and that is this:



The deserts are very instrumental in the world wide weather patterns and help determine the direction of the prevailing winds. The "Greening of the Sahara" would have a world wide effect on the weather world wide. I think this is something that needs to be looked into further, to determine if the overall effect would benefit or offset the local advantages.
If you think about it, how does deserts actually affect?

I mean that deserts are dry and hot because dominant weather there, not otherway round (that weather is there what it is because of landscape).

We have few examples, drying of Aral-sea did not affect weather worldwide, only locally. These pools would be in scale of Aral (like one as far south from 30´th parallel, as far as Aral is north of it, 30-line is "crossroads of the winds") and not bigger than Caspian Sea, and far away from each others, so why would they affect?

And desert of Sahara were green during last iceage, so it is kind of "natural condition" of it. Again, iceage caused it to be green, not otherway around (green Sahara did not cause iceage).

I believe that these pools would not affect wind and weather patterns worldwide, nor so radically even in Sahara. Temperature in Sahara would cool little because of clouds forming from vaporized water, but not in such huge scale. Remember that sand reflects sunlight, so Sahara would reflect less than now, replacing cooling. If "Global warming" is true, we need to cool Sahara anyway to keep balance over there (and green plants will help in that with worldwide effect).

Wind direction and volume IN SAHARA (I do not say that this goes in all other places) is affected by corriolis-force of Earth, not by moisture or clouds in the air, neither by form of landscape. You can find direction of winds in Sahara, and you also see that there is not much to affect it on its way from coast of Mediterrean to rainforest-belt, few lakes and clouds would not make significant difference. We are not raising mountains here ;-)
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Woodrow
09-11-2007, 11:12 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul(Kai),Finn
If you think about it, how does deserts actually affect?

I mean that deserts are dry and hot because dominant weather there, not otherway round (that weather is there what it is because of landscape).

We have few examples, drying of Aral-sea did not affect weather worldwide, only locally. These pools would be in scale of Aral (like one as far south from 30´th parallel, as far as Aral is north of it, 30-line is "crossroads of the winds") and not bigger than Caspian Sea, and far away from each others, so why would they affect?

And desert of Sahara were green during last iceage, so it is kind of "natural condition" of it. Again, iceage caused it to be green, not otherway around (green Sahara did not cause iceage).

I believe that these pools would not affect wind and weather patterns worldwide, nor so radically even in Sahara. Temperature in Sahara would cool little because of clouds forming from vaporized water, but not in such huge scale. Remember that sand reflects sunlight, so Sahara would reflect less than now, replacing cooling. If "Global warming" is true, we need to cool Sahara anyway to keep balance over there (and green plants will help in that with worldwide effect).

Wind direction and volume IN SAHARA (I do not say that this goes in all other places) is affected by corriolis-force of Earth, not by moisture or clouds in the air, neither by form of landscape. You can find direction of winds in Sahara, and you also see that there is not much to affect it on its way from coast of Mediterrean to rainforest-belt, few lakes and clouds would not make significant difference. We are not raising mountains here ;-)
It is true the Sahara was green at the time of the last ice age and that the Green Sahara did not produce the ice age.

Yes greenery would have an effect of cooling the Sahara. But this in turn would/could result in a reduction in the massive updraft that occurs over the Sahara in the daylight hours. The possible change I would expect would be a shift in the monsoon rains that currently reach the India sub continent annually. I am not saying it would be good or bad, but I think it is worthy of study to find the long term effects. I remember in the 1940s and 50s the massive well drilling projects the UN did in the Sahara, the result was the nomadic tribes ceased their normal migration routes resulting in overpopulation of Ethiopia, The Sudan and a few other places. The end result being a drop of local water tables and insufficient food production for the increased population. The "Help" resulted in massive starvation in what was to be a reduction of starvation.

Progress is a double edged sword. Caution must be exercised to be certain that the final result does not cause even more harm.

A good study would be to try to check the world weather patterns back at the time the Sahara was green and try to determine what areas were affected. This can be done by world wide soil samples taken from a level that corresponds with that time.

Your concept does sound feasable and workable, but caution is something we as humans tend to neglect. Your idea is well worth considering. Hopefully, all possibilities will be evaluated.

One more thing does come to mind. The salt that is removed from the sea water, is going to become concentrated some place. Where will that be and what effect will that have in those regions? The sand does not "filter" salt out in the same manner as it filters undissolved particles. It is more of a process of evaporation and capillary attraction of recondensation. At some point there is going to be a heavy build up of salt in the soil. It does not take much salt in the soil to make the soil non productive. Is there a possibility that at some point the salt build up will result in an increase of non productive land?
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Abdul(Kai),Finn
09-11-2007, 12:33 PM
Woodrow, you are correct, we should be careful with this. And that is why I have sent my idea to National Geography, I was thinking about sending it to other science-publications too, as soon as I can. And you all can help me with this, asking if this project could be done. Just send e-mail with (my) link to any publication you know.

After all, I am no scientist, that is what they are there for. I am just "visionary".

There was however one "but" in your request to investigate how climate patterns were affected last time when Sahara was green. That "but" is iceage. Most propably iceage affected much more to climate than green Sahara.

And effects of cooling or warming of Sahara (and effect of it to updraft) should not be emphasied too much, as result would be quite much plus minus sero. Absence of areas of (light reflecting) sand would be replaced by higher heat-storage of new lakes, and effects of that (surface warming) would be replaced by clouds (both reflecting and keeping light). And also green plants would have their effect. And as I mentioned, global warming could make it necessary to cool Sahara.

About salt, it could be filtered in early stages of pipes or pumps, even producing salt that is now produced by vaporizing.

And I have heard from very reliable sources that sand filters salt. Of course on coast-line and in bottom of these "pools" there would be large concentration of salt, but that would not be problem for agricultural activities, as level of "pools" would be kept same (by regulating water flow). If sand filters salt, it would not be problem if there would be large concentration of salt, as pools would act only as source of water.
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