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aamirsaab
09-13-2007, 08:21 AM
:sl:
I was supposed to write up my AS/A2 psychology notes up onto LI this summer. Unfortunately, I got lazy.

Instead, I will present a series of short threads starting with this: Islam and Psychology. It is currently a work in progress and may go through edits. It is not constructed as an essay since I'm doing this at 9 am on a thursday morning.

Disclaimer; this is not for the younger viewers (aged below 13) since it deals with mature subjects, that quite frankly will bore the living daylights out of you or get you confused.


Chapter 1: The Hijab/Niqaab/Covering - modesty

Females generally have several attributes/qualities that are deemed attractive (men also do and I will cover this later). These include; *hair, eyes, nose, mouth/teeth*, breasts, overall body figure. [The attributes surrounded by * * are the same for male.]
Thus, what we deem as ''ugly'' equates to any of the previous attributes being incomplete or damaged, such as balding, wrinkles, bad teeth etc. To give a stronger example: overall body figure; the hourglass figure is seen as most attractive since this is perfect figure for child bearing. It therefore adheres to basic survival instinct.
God is aware of this and to prevent the unlawful gaze of a member of the opposite sex (since this is regarded as sinful in Islam) has told us to, in simplest terms, cover ourselves up. Thus, the Hijab and niqaab is not a matter of oppression, rather it is a matter of protection and modesty for the women. Almost like a shield for both the female AND the male.

There is an article about it here: click me It goes further into the social aspects of attraction alongside psychological.

With regards to men, a muscular and broad-shoulder physique is seen as attractive. As with women, they are also told to cover up for the same reasons. In general, males have less physical attractive attributes than females. To compensate; personality, humour and generosity are seen as attractive traits. Thus is the reasoning behind the ruling on idle chit-chat with the opposite sex.

Could Islam therefore be trying to prevent us from procreating? Not at all. It is actually trying to promote procreation through the correct means: modesty.

Chapter 2: Prayer and dhikr (constant remembrance of Allah)

Often, I have heard from people what is/are the benefit(s) of prayer. By this, what they mean is how does it benefit you in this life. I will cover a few;
* Exercise - You read that correctly. Now, it's not like a series of star jumps or press-ups or hand stands. But, it does keep your body active. If you take an average time for prayers - let's say 10 minutes per prayer --> 5 daily prayers * 10 mins = 50 mins. We'll round it to an hour for this example. So that equates to an hour of light exercise a day. (note that 5 prayers is obligatory; more, however, can be done as nawafl/extra). So, in fact, Islam actually encourages exercise.
* Helps us remember - during the actual prayer (aka salat) surahs (or parts) of the Quran are read. Psychology has stated that things can be learnt through repetition. Prayer encourages repetition of parts of the Quran, thus enabling us to learn it 'by heart'
* calms you down - Older/younger sibling threw something at you? pizza dude gave you a dime instead of a buck? Whatever the reason, you get angry right? You want to get rid of this, correct? You've probably heard of: take deep breaths or count to ten slowly? Theory behing this is to cool off/calm down. Prayer helps you do that by focusing on what is important and just letting your body cool down.

There are most likely more and I may write them down, If I remember them.

Constant dhikhr, or remembrance of Allah/God - The logic behind this is similar to prayer - remembrance. In this case, it is of God. There are countless arabic Dua's (small prayers) that exist. In this world, one of the benefit comes from remembrance of God. Skeptics would argue that this is brainwashing - to this I reply; ''brainwashing implies negative thoughts - peaceful thoughts are not negative. Try again.''



Chapter 3: Fruedian methodology acknowledges Satan?

Freud stated that there are 3 parts to the human psyche; Id (irrational, insatiable aspect), Ego (self-esteem, pride) and super ego (the referee or the compromise). In Islam Shaytan/satan is described or referred to as being the source of temptation (amongst other things). Thus, it could very well be that the Id part of our psyche is indeed shaytan. Perhaps if Freud were religious, he may have indeed called 'Id' satan instead.
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-13-2007, 09:24 AM
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

bro i found this very interesting mashaAllah.

I'd like it if you wrote more :)
Reply

aamirsaab
09-13-2007, 09:34 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah

bro i found this very interesting mashaAllah.

I'd like it if you wrote more :)

Would you like elaboration on what I have given or would you like more links between psychology and Islam?

The next one in the series: Moderate Islam = Islam, I will put up next week - need some time to get my brain working.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-13-2007, 09:41 AM
^ links between psychology and islam bro, but dont stress lol, take your time inshaAllah, just letting you know that i like your work :D
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Malaikah
09-13-2007, 10:15 AM
:sl:

Do you have any more information about Chapter 1? About what is deemed attractive and all that? (A link would be fine- I don't expect you to type it all up).

Thanks.
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aamirsaab
09-13-2007, 10:35 AM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Do you have any more information about Chapter 1? About what is deemed attractive and all that? (A link would be fine- I don't expect you to type it all up).

Thanks.
Alas: http://psychologytoday.com/rss/pto-19930301-000030.html
I just found it and have added it to the original post. It goes more into sociological aspects.

Here is another: http://www.units.muohio.edu/psybersite/attraction/. Deals with theories relating to attraction and psychology.

If you want more on what is considered attractive attributes;

Explanations of interpersonal attraciveness

1) Physical attractiveness - This factor is very important in the initial stages of attraction. Feingold's research states there is a 'halo' effect in which the indiviudla sees the person they are attracted to as more sociable - like an angle that can do no wrong. Physical attractiveness is v. important since it links with survival instincts.

According to Walster (1966) we create a compromise using the matchin hypothesis which states that physical attraction is a product of how we match our perceptions of our own attractiveness against others --- basically, we have a base physical attraction which we then match with potential spouses. This theory explains why we do not go after the same man or women

2) Evolutionary (or survival) explanations - Human females have to invest 9 months, health risks and a lot of care time to the potential outcome of the relationship (aga a child). Therefore, females are selecting males based on how much extra support they can provide. Hence women are looking for a good resource provider.

Human males are different - they seem to have no quality issues. Though, researchers have found that they are selective. This seems to be due to cuckhold effect - in essence, raising someone elses child.

Characteristics that are looked for in potential spouses:
Men seek healthiness and youthfulness which is indicated through skin, hair teeth etc (This is one of the reasons for the Hijab/Niqaab/Covering). Women seek social and economic advantage - humourous and kind. Both genders select for good genes, hence physical symmetry is an important factor in this decision
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IbnAbdulHakim
09-13-2007, 12:31 PM
^ mashaAllah! i think i'll be reading every post on this thread for sure :)
Reply

Pk_#2
09-13-2007, 02:23 PM
Don't be silly Ibn.., i only read the title, erm keep it up! :D

8-)
Reply

LionOfAllah
09-13-2007, 02:24 PM
^lol you know that when you call him "Ibn" your calling him "son" ;D
Reply

Pk_#2
09-13-2007, 02:27 PM
so?

I meant sass'is Ibn..
Reply

aamirsaab
09-14-2007, 01:39 PM
:sl:
BUMP. Chapter 3 added to original post.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
09-14-2007, 01:42 PM
^ whoooah!! bro when you say "human psyche" do you mean our common mentality?
Reply

aamirsaab
09-14-2007, 01:47 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ whoooah!! bro when you say "human psyche" do you mean our common mentality?
You could call it that.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:25 PM
Guessing discussion and debating are a no-no while Ramadan is on? If not, I have a few retorts :P
Reply

aamirsaab
09-14-2007, 04:37 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Isambard
Guessing discussion and debating are a no-no while Ramadan is on? If not, I have a few retorts :P
By all means, retort. I'd gladly debate on anything I have written so far. I will warn you; I've an A level in psychology and 2 years worth of notes in my room.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 06:04 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:

By all means, retort. I'd gladly debate on anything I have written so far. I will warn you; I've an A level in psychology and 2 years worth of notes in my room.
haha alright, just dont take any errs on my part personally :okay:
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
I was supposed to write up my AS/A2 psychology notes up onto LI this summer. Unfortunately, I got lazy.

Instead, I will present a series of short threads starting with this: Islam and Psychology. It is currently a work in progress and may go through edits. It is not constructed as an essay since I'm doing this at 9 am on a thursday morning.

Disclaimer; this is not for the younger viewers (aged below 13) since it deals with mature subjects, that quite frankly will bore the living daylights out of you or get you confused.


Chapter 1: The Hijab/Niqaab/Covering - modesty

Females generally have several attributes/qualities that are deemed attractive (men also do and I will cover this later). These include; *hair, eyes, nose, mouth/teeth*, breasts, overall body figure. [The attributes surrounded by * * are the same for male.]
Thus, what we deem as ''ugly'' equates to any of the previous attributes being incomplete or damaged, such as balding, wrinkles, bad teeth etc. To give a stronger example: overall body figure; the hourglass figure is seen as most attractive since this is perfect figure for child bearing. It therefore adheres to basic survival instinct.
God is aware of this and to prevent the unlawful gaze of a member of the opposite sex (since this is regarded as sinful in Islam) has told us to, in simplest terms, cover ourselves up. Thus, the Hijab and niqaab is not a matter of oppression, rather it is a matter of protection and modesty for the women. Almost like a shield for both the female AND the male.

There is an article about it here: click me It goes further into the social aspects of attraction alongside psychological.

With regards to men, a muscular and broad-shoulder physique is seen as attractive. As with women, they are also told to cover up for the same reasons. In general, males have less physical attractive attributes than females. To compensate; personality, humour and generosity are seen as attractive traits. Thus is the reasoning behind the ruling on idle chit-chat with the opposite sex.

Could Islam therefore be trying to prevent us from procreating? Not at all. It is actually trying to promote procreation through the correct means: modesty.

Im not sure how the veil or scarf promotes modesty. I would argue that the idea of what constitues modesty itself is subjective. Leaving that aside thou, I say it prevents one from developing an instrinsic 'modesty' by disallowing them to develop self-control and thus any relations with the opposite sex do become more physical and sexually based.

For example, the least amount of rapes per group occur in nudist colonies and despite the continous showing of bodies to everyone, you dont see ppl jumping on each other like wild animals.

That said, from my own personal expierence from having all my close friends being female (and exceptionally attractive in my opinion) as well being perfectly okay with nudity, I no go crazy from seeing a naked female form or even a suggestive one. Rather, when considering courting someone, I am very picky in terms of intellegence, likes/dislikes, goals etc. and thou physical aethetics are impt, it isnt all encompassing. Ive also ahd situations where an attractive girl has flung herself at me (thru unique situations) and because of my close relationships with girls, indifference to nudity etc. I didnt take advantage of the situation to satify my own needs.

Chapter 2: Prayer and dhikr (constant remembrance of Allah)

Often, I have heard from people what is/are the benefit(s) of prayer. By this, what they mean is how does it benefit you in this life. I will cover a few;
* Exercise - You read that correctly. Now, it's not like a series of star jumps or press-ups or hand stands. But, it does keep your body active. If you take an average time for prayers - let's say 10 minutes per prayer --> 5 daily prayers * 10 mins = 50 mins. We'll round it to an hour for this example. So that equates to an hour of light exercise a day. (note that 5 prayers is obligatory; more, however, can be done as nawafl/extra). So, in fact, Islam actually encourages exercise.
* Helps us remember - during the actual prayer (aka salat) surahs (or parts) of the Quran are read. Psychology has stated that things can be learnt through repetition. Prayer encourages repetition of parts of the Quran, thus enabling us to learn it 'by heart'
* calms you down - Older/younger sibling threw something at you? pizza dude gave you a dime instead of a buck? Whatever the reason, you get angry right? You want to get rid of this, correct? You've probably heard of: take deep breaths or count to ten slowly? Theory behing this is to cool off/calm down. Prayer helps you do that by focusing on what is important and just letting your body cool down.

There are most likely more and I may write them down, If I remember them.

Constant dhikhr, or remembrance of Allah/God - The logic behind this is similar to prayer - remembrance. In this case, it is of God. There are countless arabic Dua's (small prayers) that exist. In this world, one of the benefit comes from remembrance of God. Skeptics would argue that this is brainwashing - to this I reply; ''brainwashing implies negative thoughts - peaceful thoughts are not negative. Try again.''

I guess this would fall under meditation which research has shown to agree with your results, thou Buddhist meditation/excersizes has also shown to be superior


Chapter 3: Fruedian methodology acknowledges Satan?

Freud stated that there are 3 parts to the human psyche; Id (irrational, insatiable aspect), Ego (self-esteem, pride) and super ego (the referee or the compromise). In Islam Shaytan/satan is described or referred to as being the source of temptation (amongst other things). Thus, it could very well be that the Id part of our psyche is indeed shaytan. Perhaps if Freud were religious, he may have indeed called 'Id' satan instead.
I dont really see how the Id is similar to Satan except in both cases neither can be proved. (Freudian thought is closer to a religion than science). That it was stolent from Plato's Tripartite Soul model, replace Id with 'multi-headed beast' and youll see what I mean:okay:

Satan is to be avoided in Islamic thought, but Freud said it was dangerous to always ignore your Id. Your Id isnt evil or malevonlent (sp?), it is merely a representation of your base instincts (hunger, sexual drive, avoidance of boredom etc). In cases where the Id was ignored because of the Super-ego, ppl became self-hating.

Perhaps Im wrong, but as far as I am aware, God never says its ok to listen to Satan on occation :shade:
Reply

aamirsaab
09-14-2007, 07:38 PM
:sl:
Originally Posted by Isambard
haha alright, just dont take any errs on my part personally :okay:
I promise.


Originally Posted by Isambard
.....Leaving that aside thou, I say it prevents one from developing an instrinsic 'modesty' by disallowing them to develop self-control and thus any relations with the opposite sex do become more physical and sexually based.
That's a fine point. However, Islam does encourage us to develop self-control (you may have heard of: controlling one's naffs - desires, temptations. Thus leading to self control). Though, I would have to disagree with your last part about relations becoming more physical/sexual, since relationships on a foundation level do require more than that. Again though, the point you raised was fair.

For example, the least amount of rapes per group occur in nudist colonies and despite the continous showing of bodies to everyone, you dont see ppl jumping on each other like wild animals.
Rape is not always based on sexual desires though. Often it occurs as a form of extreme empowerment.

That said, from my own personal expierence from having all my close friends being female (and exceptionally attractive in my opinion) as well being perfectly okay with nudity, I no go crazy from seeing a naked female form or even a suggestive one.
lol, I wasn't initially suggesting you would go crazy. Rather, you would give unlawful gazes - which is considered sinful in Islam.

Rather, when considering courting someone, I am very picky in terms of intellegence, likes/dislikes, goals etc. and thou physical aethetics are impt, it isnt all encompassing.
What you have stated is merely the rest of the equation - which I agree with holeheartedly since relationships are not founded solely on attraction.

Ive also ahd situations where an attractive girl has flung herself at me (thru unique situations) and because of my close relationships with girls, indifference to nudity etc. I didnt take advantage of the situation to satify my own needs
Good test of your self-control, eh :D.


Originally Posted by Isambard
I dont really see how the Id is similar to Satan except in both cases neither can be proved. (Freudian thought is closer to a religion than science). That it was stolent from Plato's Tripartite Soul model, replace Id with 'multi-headed beast' and youll see what I mean:okay:
The explanation I gave was rather vague, I do admit this. Since satan in Islam is connected to desire, temptation and therefore emobies the insatiable side of humans it is quite a remarkable resemblance to the Id, which under Frued's definition pretty much is our sub-consience.

Satan is to be avoided in Islamic thought, but Freud said it was dangerous to always ignore your Id.
Indeed. Excellent points so far.

Your Id isnt evil or malevonlent (sp?), it is merely a representation of your base instincts (hunger, sexual drive, avoidance of boredom etc). In cases where the Id was ignored because of the Super-ego, ppl became self-hating.
People only become self hating if their ego isn't taking the weight. Your train of thought, however is commendable. The basic instincts part I thought was excellent. However, in Islam, we are taught to control these erges/emotions - the point about satan being on parallel with the Id was that both cause temptation, but the ego is what helps create the balance or compromise. Thus, based on that, it could very well be stated that the Id is a manifestation of Satan.

Perhaps Im wrong, but as far as I am aware, God never says its ok to listen to Satan on occation :shade:
I think the points you made were logical and some, not all, I did agree on. Had I explained the satan/Id link to a higher degree, you may have agreed earlier. Since, however, the initial post was written in laymans terms, purely for the benefit of everyone, we were able to have this little conversation. Which I was both suprised and happy with.

Looking forward to a reply.
Reply

Isambard
09-15-2007, 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
That's a fine point. However, Islam does encourage us to develop self-control (you may have heard of: controlling one's naffs - desires, temptations. Thus leading to self control). Though, I would have to disagree with your last part about relations becoming more physical/sexual, since relationships on a foundation level do require more than that. Again though, the point you raised was fair.

Hmm, you are correct it does, but I still feel always moving towards prevention keeps a person from learning and developing (like the old parable of the kid and the hot stove). I havent seen any conclsuive research either war, only good arguements so I willing to admit I may hold a bias.

Your last sentence I would have to disagree with both from personal experience in trying to get wholly physical relationships to work as well as from observation in relationships where sex was no longer had (either thru old age, disabilities, disaease, boredom etc) if the relationship is only furthered (marriage or equivalent) because of desire for carnal urges, it tends to fall apart when they ahve been fulfilled or can no longer happen. I guess this maybe solved thru multiple wives, but it stillfeels off to me
Rape is not always based on sexual desires though. Often it occurs as a form of extreme empowerment.


lol, I wasn't initially suggesting you would go crazy. Rather, you would give unlawful gazes - which is considered sinful in Islam.

Haha true, but I say dont fix what isnt broken. An 'unlawful gaze' is as bad as say, passing gas and having someone walk by. Embarresing if your caught but ultimately harmless as long as you dont make a habit of it or push it beyond that first stage.

What you have stated is merely the rest of the equation - which I agree with holeheartedly since relationships are not founded solely on attraction.


Good test of your self-control, eh :D.


Haha that it is, though its not something you can exactly plan lol

The explanation I gave was rather vague, I do admit this. Since satan in Islam is connected to desire, temptation and therefore emobies the insatiable side of humans it is quite a remarkable resemblance to the Id, which under Frued's definition pretty much is our sub-consience.

People only become self hating if their ego isn't taking the weight. Your train of thought, however is commendable. The basic instincts part I thought was excellent. However, in Islam, we are taught to control these erges/emotions - the point about satan being on parallel with the Id was that both cause temptation, but the ego is what helps create the balance or compromise. Thus, based on that, it could very well be stated that the Id is a manifestation of Satan.

I still dont see the connection. Sure Ibliss a tempter starting with small indulgences leading to bigger acts of hedonism, but the Id itself is just an anthromorphized representation of urges. Unlike Ibliss, it wont bug you once youve satisfied it. If I am hungry, then I eat. I am full and so my Id will no longer bug me. Ibliss woudl encourage me to eat....and continue eating well after I am full.

I guess my point is one pushes you to do evil, while the other may lead to immoral acts, but has to agenda of its own.

I think the points you made were logical and some, not all, I did agree on. Had I explained the satan/Id link to a higher degree, you may have agreed earlier. Since, however, the initial post was written in laymans terms, purely for the benefit of everyone, we were able to have this little conversation. Which I was both suprised and happy with.

Looking forward to a reply.
Ive enjoyed the little chat too :). Sry for the wait, but I get the feelings I need to think my answers extra hard before posting a reply with you:statisfie
Reply

aamirsaab
09-15-2007, 08:24 PM
:sl:

Oooh this is fun.

Originally Posted by Isambard
Your last sentence I would have to disagree with both from personal experience in trying to get wholly physical relationships to work as well as from observation in relationships where sex was no longer had (either thru old age, disabilities, disaease, boredom etc) if the relationship is only furthered (marriage or equivalent) because of desire for carnal urges, it tends to fall apart when they ahve been fulfilled or can no longer happen. I guess this maybe solved thru multiple wives, but it stillfeels off to me
Perhaps this comes down to experience rather than theory.

Haha true, but I say dont fix what isnt broken. An 'unlawful gaze' is as bad as say, passing gas and having someone walk by. Embarresing if your caught but ultimately harmless as long as you dont make a habit of it or push it beyond that first stage.
True, but it is still regarded as a sin in Islam.

I still dont see the connection. Sure Ibliss a tempter starting with small indulgences leading to bigger acts of hedonism, but the Id itself is just an anthromorphized representation of urges. Unlike Ibliss, it wont bug you once youve satisfied it. If I am hungry, then I eat. I am full and so my Id will no longer bug me. Ibliss woudl encourage me to eat....and continue eating well after I am full.
Good point. The Id, however, is also known to be insatiable though. Perhaps it is more to do with one's own experience with their Id. Any takers for a psychological experiment? :D

I guess my point is one pushes you to do evil, while the other may lead to immoral acts, but has to agenda of its own
True. Satan's intentions, though, can be tricky to translate. I'll try and give an explanation:

Man sees woman;
Id says procreate
or you could say that satan is saying: Indulge in the forbidden (since in Islam, procreation should only be done after the marriage). Perhaps if you aren't muslim, it maybe difficult to fully understand the linkage (since muslims are raised with the thought process that satan does exist - those who do not have this same thought process may find it difficult to understand)

Originally Posted by Isambard
Ive enjoyed the little chat too :). Sry for the wait, but I get the feelings I need to think my answers extra hard before posting a reply with you:statisfie
Hahaha. Well, I look at it as a brain exercise for me and it does make a nice change from having to refute brain-dead individuals over the WWW.
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