Belief

[Duncan Ferguson]

Just a quick question.

Does one have to believe in the existence of God / Allah to be a Muslim?

[Muhammad]

Hello Dunan and welcome to the forum,

Islam is based on five pillars which the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has explained for us, when he said: “Islam is built upon five [pillars]: the testimony that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah; establishing regular prayer (salaah); paying the zakaah; Hajj (pilgrimage) and fasting Ramadaan.” (Agreed upon; narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 8)

Concerning the first pillar (which is the testiomony of faith), this means that a person believes that Allaah alone is the Lord, Sovereign and Controller, the Creator and Provider. He affirms all His most beautiful names and the sublime attributes that Allaah has affirmed for Himself or that His Prophet affirmed for Him. He believes that Allaah alone, and no one else, is the Only One Who is deserving of worship, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.

Such is Allaah, your Lord! Laa ilaaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Creator of all things. So worship Him (Alone), and He is the Wakeel (Trustee, Disposer of affairs or Guardian) over all things”

[Qur'an 6:101-102]

And from the very definition of Islam, we learn that the word ISLAM has a two-fold meaning: peace, and submission to God. This submission requires a fully conscious and willing effort to submit to the one Almighty God. One must consciously and conscientiously give oneself to the service of Allah. This means to act on what Allah enjoins all of us to do (in the Qur'an) and what His beloved Prophet, Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged us to do in his Sunnah (his lifestyle and sayings personifying the Qur'an).

Read more here: http://www.beconvinced.com/en/articl...o%20To%20Islam

[Woodrow]

Just a quick question.

Does one have to believe in the existence of God / Allah to be a Muslim?

Islam means to submit to the will of God(swt). A Muslim is a person who performs Islam. That is a person who submits to the will of God(swt).

It would be quite paradoxical for a person to submit to the will of God(swt), but not believe in God(swt)

[Duncan Ferguson]

Islam means to submit to the will of God(swt). A Muslim is a person who performs Islam. That is a person who submits to the will of God(swt).

It would be quite paradoxical for a person to submit to the will of God(swt), but not believe in God(swt)

I'm aware of the meaning of the word Islam, and indeed, as you describe it, it would be paradoxical for a Muslim not to believe in God.

But plenty do just that - don't believe in God and refer to themselves as Muslims. It seems to me that the status of the umma is ambiguous, meaning either the community of Muslim nations or the community of Muslim believers.

Would a man of, say, Pakistani origin with a Muslim name and Muslim parents be considered to be a Muslim even if he did not profess belief?

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[Woodrow]

We consider him to be Muslim unless a number of reliable witnesses can testify that he has been seen continuously acting UnIslamicaly especially failure to do his prayers, has become an apostate or committed the sin of shirk.

It is not up to us to judge if a person who calls himself a Muslim, is truly a Muslim. although we may say his specific acts are not Islamic.

[barney]

The question i think applies to most religions.
Before i became Agnostic, I would write on forms and official documents that I was a christian. I never accepted Jesus into my heart as my lord and saviour in sure and certain hope of life everlasting, so most Real christians would say I wasnt a christian. You are born a "christian" or a "Muslim", but thats just the faith of your society. Only accepting the religion personally as yours will, in my opinion, make you a follower of that faith.

[Duncan Ferguson]

OK, but I'm still not 100% sure here. Thank you for your patience, Woodrow, as there is much that I have to learn.

The example I gave referred to one who does not profess belief, but has a Muslim background, and lives among Muslims. He would not follow the Five Pillars but otherwise live a blameless and moral life. He would be open in his non-belief. You are saying that this person is not a Muslim.

Is he part of the umma?

[glo]

The question i think applies to most religions.
Before i became Agnostic, I would write on forms and official documents that I was a christian. I never accepted Jesus into my heart as my lord and saviour in sure and certain hope of life everlasting, so most Real christians would say I wasnt a christian. You are born a "christian" or a "Muslim", but thats just the faith of your society. Only accepting the religion personally as yours will, in my opinion, make you a follower of that faith.

I much agree with barney.

All my life I had considered myself a Christian: I had a Christian upbringing, received Christian teaching, was christened, went to church regularly, did all the things other Christians around me did ...
As far as I was concerned and as far as people around me were concerned I was a Christian.

But hindsight I realise that I didn't really become a Christian at all, until I made that shift inside my heart and committed my life to the Lord. All the external 'Christian' things I had been following and doing, did not mean much at all until I had made that internal commitment. And only when I made that commitment, did all other things fall into place and make sense.

To go back to the original question, I guess it is not for us to say or judge whether an individual is a true follower of a faith or not ... but God knows - and his judgement is what matters in the end.

As for not believing in God at all, that's such a crucial part of any of the monotheistic faiths that I cannot see how one can call oneself a follower of a faith without believing in God!

You can, of course, hold dear to the religions principles and teachings, and find following them beneficial. (And indeed you can benefit from following them to some degree without believing in God) There are people who call themselves atheist Christians, who admire and follow the teachings of Jesus without believing in God.
But how much value that has in God's eyes ... I have my doubts about that. :rolleyes:

Peace

[Woodrow]

OK, but I'm still not 100% sure here. Thank you for your patience, Woodrow, as there is much that I have to learn.

The example I gave referred to one who does not profess belief, but has a Muslim background, and lives among Muslims. He would not follow the Five Pillars but otherwise live a blameless and moral life. He would be open in his non-belief. You are saying that this person is not a Muslim.

Is he part of the umma?

I would say no on both counts. This is based on the fact that he does not follow the five pillars and his self admission he is a non-believer. To follow the 5 pillars is the minimum a person can do and be considered a Muslim.

The Ummah is all of the world's Muslims. If you are not Muslim, you are not part of the world's Muslims.

[Woodrow]

I would like to add, to be Muslim is quite a bit different than being the member of a church or any denomination. It is primarily between the person and Allah(swt).

Most Mosques do not have any type of membership rolls. The only reason a person ever need specifically state they are Muslim is for the purpose of passports. Although every Muslim I know readily tells eveybody he/she is Muslim.

[Duncan Ferguson]

To go back to the original question, I guess it is not for us to say or judge whether an individual is a true follower of a faith or not ... but God knows - and his judgement is what matters in the end.

As for not believing in God at all, that's such a crucial part of any of the monotheistic faiths that I cannot see how one can call oneself a follower of a faith without believing in God!

This wasn't what I meant in the OP. I know personally many people of Pakistani and Kurdish background that profess to be Muslim yet openly disbelieve in God. I have seen it written, seemingly erroneously, that Muslim (and Jewish) apostates do not lose their status within their communities.

Knowing slightly more of Christianity, I do recognise that acceptance of doctrine is required within that religion to qualify as a Christian.

Nevertheless, in a recent survey in the Guardian newspaper, the following responses were given.

• when asked "what religion are you?", two-thirds of Britons replied "Christian".
• when asked "do you believe in God?", two-thirds of Britons replied "No".

This means that there are around twenty million so-called Christian non-believers in the UK. I wondered about the relationship between Islam and the Muslim community and if it were similar or dissimilar.

[Woodrow]

This wasn't what I meant in the OP. I know personally many people of Pakistani and Kurdish background that profess to be Muslim yet openly disbelieve in God. I have seen it written, seemingly erroneously, that Muslim (and Jewish) apostates do not lose their status within their communities.

Knowing slightly more of Christianity, I do recognise that acceptance of doctrine is required within that religion to qualify as a Christian.

Nevertheless, in a recent survey in the Guardian newspaper, the following responses were given.

• when asked "what religion are you?", two-thirds of Britons replied "Christian".
• when asked "do you believe in God?", two-thirds of Britons replied "No".

This means that there are around twenty million so-called Christian non-believers in the UK. I wondered about the relationship between Islam and the Muslim community and if it were similar or dissimilar.

I believe it would be very difficult to validate any conclusions. In any community the number of Muslims can only be estimated. Particulary in a community Islam is a minority or near minority.

They are no membership roles. we often go to different Mosques, whichever is closest at time of prayer. The only time we are required to attend Mosque is for Friday Jummah and that could easily be a different Mosque every Friday.

We are not on any lists for tithes etc. I can not see where there would be any need or incentive for a Muslim to say he is Muslim in one place and than profess to be a non-believer in another. there actually are true Muslims who have never been in a Mosque nor had any contact with other Muslims.

For a short period of time I would have met that criteria. I said my shahadah to Allah(swt) in my home in Anderson County Texas and at the time did not know of one Muslim in Anderson County or even if there was a Mosque in Texas. But, because i said the Shahadah in sincerity, I was from that moment foreword as much of a Muslim as a person born Muslim and who had attended mosque every day of his life. The moment I said the Shahadah I was as much Muslim as any other Muslim Living or dead. I may not have known fully how to pray etc. But I was still no less of a Muslim.

[MustafaMc]

OK, but I'm still not 100% sure here. Thank you for your patience, Woodrow, as there is much that I have to learn.

The example I gave referred to one who does not profess belief, but has a Muslim background, and lives among Muslims. He would not follow the Five Pillars but otherwise live a blameless and moral life. He would be open in his non-belief. You are saying that this person is not a Muslim.

Is he part of the umma?

This is actually a very good question. I would have to agree with all of Br. Woodrow's answers and Glo had some good points, too.

To be a Muslim one must believe first and then bear witness that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is the Servant and Messenger of Allah; however, I believe that if one is born to Muslim parents he/she is accepted as being a Muslim without this public testimony. If one is born to Muslim parents or he converts to Islam then later abandons his religion (doesn't pray, fast, or give the charity tax), then he is not accepted as a part of the Ummah. Muslims may consider such a person as an unbeliever or a hypocrite, but very rarely (if ever) would he openly be called one based merely on suspicions. However, for a person to openly deny the existence of Allah, then he is not considered a Muslim, whether or not he lived "a blameless and moral life".

Ultimately, belief is a matter of the heart and only Allah can judge belief from unbelief. I myself went through a period between 1986 and 2001 when I was not practicing Islam and was quite wishy-washy in my beliefs. I thank Allah that I did not die in that state and pray that I never return to it.

[glo]

This wasn't what I meant in the OP. I know personally many people of Pakistani and Kurdish background that profess to be Muslim yet openly disbelieve in God. I have seen it written, seemingly erroneously, that Muslim (and Jewish) apostates do not lose their status within their communities.

Knowing slightly more of Christianity, I do recognise that acceptance of doctrine is required within that religion to qualify as a Christian.

Nevertheless, in a recent survey in the Guardian newspaper, the following responses were given.

• when asked "what religion are you?", two-thirds of Britons replied "Christian".
• when asked "do you believe in God?", two-thirds of Britons replied "No".

This means that there are around twenty million so-called Christian non-believers in the UK. I wondered about the relationship between Islam and the Muslim community and if it were similar or dissimilar.

Hi Duncan

Sorry, if I have misunderstood your original question.

The way I understand your question is this: Is somebody who calls him/herself a Muslim, follows all Islamic laws, goes to mosque etc, but openly professes not to believe in the existance of God, accepted as a Muslim?
By 'accepted as a Muslim' I assume you mean by the Muslim community.
Reading through some of the replies I realise that as believers in God we have pondered the question more from the angle of 'being accepted by God' - whereas you seem to be more concerned with 'being accepted by fellow believers'.
Am I correct?

Since your question is relating particularly to Muslims, I'll not contribute any further but wait (with you) for some replies.

Peace :)

[- Qatada -]

Faith consists of:


1) Belief in the heart.

2) Actions of the Tongue.

3) Actions of the Limbs.

If you believe in your heart, you have to testify that with your tongue (i.e. pronounce Laa illaaha illAllaah, Muhammadun Rasool Allaah [there is none worthy of worship except God/Allah, and Muhammad (peace be upon him is His Messenger.]

This testification is then an action of the tongue, and required in order for one to be a believer and muslim.

As brother Muhammad explained;


Islam is based on five pillars which the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has explained for us, when he said:“Islam is built upon five [pillars]: the testimony that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allaah; establishing regular prayer (salaah); paying the zakaah; Hajj (pilgrimage) and fasting Ramadaan.”(Agreed upon; narrated by al-Bukhaari, no. 8)




The above 5 pillars are part of Islam, and for one to be a Muslim - they need to stick to them. The proof for that is in the hadith when a bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him):

Sahih Muslim Book 001 [Kitab ul Eman (Book of Faith), Number 0014:]

It is reported on the authority of Abu Huraira that a bedouin came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, direct me to a deed by which I may be entitled to enter Paradise.

Upon this he (the Holy Prophet) remarked: You worship Allah and never associate anything with Him, establish the obligatory prayer, and pay the Zakat which is incumbent upon you, and observe the fast of Ramadan. He (the bedouin) said: By Him in Whose hand is my life, I will never add anything to it, nor will I diminish anything from it. When he (the bedouin) turned his back, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: He who is pleased to see a man from the dwellers of Paradise should catch a glimpse of him.

So we see from the narration above that even if someone sticks to the basic minimum i.e. the 5 pillars, then they will enter Paradise. If they were a sinner, then they may be punished or forgiven on the Day of Judgment by Allah.




The first stage a person goes through when becoming Muslim is to submit themselves, as they gradually increase in faith - they become a Mu'min, i.e. they gain firmer Emaan [conviction in faith], then the highest rank is to have Ihsaan - every single aspect of your life involves you having a stronger relationship with God/Allah.




To answer your question, we know that if someone is to believe in Allaah, then they are ordered to believe in His Messengers', and what they came with. Allah revealed the Qur'an to His final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the Qur'an is the speech of Allah.


How can someone claim to be a believer if they reject Allah in the first place? How can they believe in Allah's Messengers' if they deny the fact that Allah exists? If they reject Allah, they reject His Messengers', His Angels, His Books, the Hereafter, the Day of Judgement, and the concept of destiny. These beliefs are vital in order for one to be a true believer.




Some people claim that belief on the tongue without belief in the heart is sufficient, yet this is a clear lie since Allah says (translation of the meaning):

When the hypocrites come to you (O Muhammad - peace be upon him),they say: "We bear witness that you are indeed the Messenger of Allah."

Allah knows that you are indeed His Messenger and Allah bears witness that the hypocrites are liars indeed.


[Qur'an The Hypocrites [Surah Al Munaafiqun] 63: 1]

The above verse then proves that simply to say that 'i believe' with ones tongue isn't sufficient, rather that belief has to settle in the heart aswell as be testified on the tongue, and proven through actions. All of these 3 act together and are dependant upon each other.



If someone says the testimony of faith with their tongue, and shows it through their actions, while rejecting Allah and His Messenger in their heart. They may be termed as hypocrites. But as Muslims, we are obliged to accept them as part of the Ummah [Muslim community.] Then on the Day of Judgement, their Judgement is with Allah. And on that day, no-one will be dealt with unjustly.





And Allaah knows best.





Peace.

[MustafaMc]

Faith consists of:


1) Belief in the heart.

2) Actions of the Tongue.

3) Actions of the Limbs.

...

To answer your question, we know that if someone is to believe in Allaah, then they are ordered to believe in His Messengers', and what they came with. Allah revealed the Qur'an to His final Messenger (peace be upon him) - the Qur'an is the speech of Allah.

How can someone claim to be a believer if they reject Allah in the first place? How can they believe in Allah's Messengers' if they deny the fact that Allah exists? If they reject Allah, they reject His Messengers', His Angels, His Books, the Hereafter, the Day of Judgement, and the concept of destiny. These beliefs are vital in order for one to be a true believer.

Br. Qatada, was I correct in saying that if one is born to Muslim parents, then he is accepted as a Muslim without saying Shahada? Most Christian denominations in (south USA at least) require a baptism ceremony for one to be considered a Christian.

[- Qatada -]

Br. Qatada, was I correct in saying that if one is born to Muslim parents, then he is accepted as a Muslim without saying Shahada? Most Christian denominations in (south USA at least) require a baptism ceremony for one to be considered a Christian.

:salamext:


Yeah, the scholars have stated that, while others have stated that when they reach puberty - they need to pronounce it, but the stronger opinion is that if you're born muslim, then you don't need to say the shahadah. And Allah knows best.

I think the reason for this is because the child is brought up following Islamic principles, believing in the Oneness of Allaah, and Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the final Messenger of Allaah. Learning how to establish the prayer (in which we recite the shahadah anyway) and the other pillars.



I've learnt all this from an amazing series of lectures by Sheikh Waleed Basyouni: :D

Download: Principles of Faith 3: Emaan vs Kufr
http://abdurrahman.org/scholars/Wale...uni.html#audio



And Allaah knows best.