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Isambard
09-14-2007, 02:38 AM
I had my I-pod earlier today. I used it at the gym as per my routine and had "Hope" by Apocalyptica when I removed the plugs from my ears. I set it down forgetting to turn it off and went about my day.

I got home just now and checked and noticed my I-pod was still playing. It had looped and was playing the same song as when I left it which is strange as its set to random.

The battery died shortly afterward.

Some may view this as an off-chance. That every song played in the sequence no matter how many times repeated is a unique occurance because the song before it is different everytime, and when chance plays out and the song before it is the same as a previous instance that song played, the song before the song is different etc. The occurance of the song then is unique and every moment then is once in a lifetime sort of deal.

Some may see the playing of the song as inevitable, merely a continous cycle that may differ in length but always arives at the same moment. The only discernable way to judge the sequence of cycles is from when I pressed Play and when the battery eventually runs out.

The third perspective (and maybe less taken one) is that in reality there is neither cycle of individual uniqueness within the transitions between songs, rather, it was all one massive song with individual songs simply being different instances of the same song. This promoted by highlighting that thruout all the time the I-pod was, there was no break in music.

With all this said, can this also apply to time? Is every moment precious, something that is without value for when you try to appretiate it, is already gone behind the sands of time?

Or is your life (or history for that matter) a collection of cycles. What has come will die, then rise anew as it has countless times in the past with choices and free-will little more than factors in determining the length of a cycle but ultimately unable to halt it? Destined for repeats till our battery also runs out?

Or is time one long string of events ultimately inseperable from each other, forever linked in casuality. Differences in perseption nothing more than limits of one's mind?

What are your thoughts?
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Woodrow
09-14-2007, 02:53 AM
My own conclusions which are to some extent based upon what I have read in physics, Religion and Philosophy.

My own conclusion is time is not a thing, it is a concept. What we measure as time is the relationship of the movement of objects.

Time is a great concept for the recognition of order and for the calculation of math and physics problems. But, it is not a stand alone thing, in itself it does not exist. We can only see the effects of existence and the relationships between the observable is what we call time.

We can not even prove if every second is the same length. Although we have set a standard based on the vibrations of some element and call so many vibrations are one second. But, we can not verify if each vibration is the same or if they remain the same for all times and locations.

so I see time as:

A concept
A mathematical function
A relationship of motion
A measurement unit
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barney
09-14-2007, 03:10 AM
Mayby your Shuffle option has broken! :D
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Md Mashud
09-14-2007, 03:14 AM
Woodrow explains it well, I would take his stance on the matter. Time is an arbitrary value which differentiates events.
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:27 AM
I didnt ask what is time, I asked how do you perceive it.

Personally, I see it as cyclical
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Woodrow
09-14-2007, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
I didnt ask what is time, I asked how do you perceive it.

Personally, I see it as cyclical
Is not our perception the conclusion of our understanding of what it is?

I perceive time as being non-existent and not of any part of the universe. I perceive it as being simply a mathematical dimension and of value only for calculations.

I do not even know if duration is a continuous continuum or a discontinuous quanta continuum. Both are possible, neither can be measured.

So how do I perceive time? No different than I perceive square roots or logarithmic functions.
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NoName55
09-14-2007, 03:45 AM
  • Ensuring to benefit from time
  • Utilizing leisure time
  • Racing for good deeds
  • Learning from the passage of time
  • Seeking the better times
  • Planning and organizing time
  • Fulfillment of commitments in time
  • Necessity to be aware of time wasters
  • Time in Islam is more than any precious material thing in this world.
  • Allah the Almighty and His Messenger, Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), very clearly tell us the value of time, why we must not waste it and how we can make use of our time wisely to increase our Eeman and thus attain success, especially eternal success in the life hereafter.
  • "There are two blessings which many people lose: health and free time for doing good." (Bukhari 8/421)
  • Time is the measure of life, time is an amaanah, time is a gift from the Creator and its proper use will determine our outcome for eternity.
  • We are born in time, live in time and die in time; time is the ambit within which we operate. What we do with time is what we do with our lives.
  • Each one must realize that every moment that passes by is an opportunity gone, used or abused; never to return. Soon time will be up and we'll have to leave this physical world and give account for our lives.
  • The more we remind ourselves of the responsibility of the present the better we get at living the moment and the better we live the present moment the better the consequence for the future.
:w:


The publisher of this journal has not yet elected to make single articles available for purchase via the Publisher Sales Service, a publisher opt-in service facilitated by JSTOR. Authorized users may be required to log in via their library website. For more information about obtaining the complete article, please see Access Options. The citation and first page are available below.


The Concept of Time in Islam
Gerhard Bowering
Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society, Vol. 141, No. 1 (Mar., 1997), pp. 55-66
This article consists of 12 page(s).


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Woodrow
09-14-2007, 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:w:

Ensuring benefiting from time
Utilizing leisure time
Racing for good deeds
Learning from the passage of time
Seeking the superior times
Planning and organizing time
Fulfillment of time commitments
Necessary awareness of time wasters
That I can understand.



I do not view that as a perception of time, but as a guide of how we will be accountable for that which we each understand as time. In that sense I would perceive time as a one chance event in which we will have to eventually justify our actions for.
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:52 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Is not our perception the conclusion of our understanding of what it is?

I perceive time as being non-existent and not of any part of the universe. I perceive it as being simply a mathematical dimension and of value only for calculations.

I do not even know if duration is a continuous continuum or a discontinuous quanta continuum. Both are possible, neither can be measured.

So how do I perceive time? No different than I perceive square roots or logarithmic functions.
I sensing you perceive as a sort of eternal event though I guess with the variation of eternity being applied to general non-existance of it :P
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NoName55
09-14-2007, 03:57 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
That I can understand.



I do not view that as a perception of time, but as a guide of how we will be accountable for that which we each understand as time. In that sense I would perceive time as a one chance event in which we will have to eventually justify our actions for.
any more than that would just be speculation thus abuse of time?:w:
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Woodrow
09-14-2007, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
I sensing you perceive as a sort of eternal event though I guess with the variation of eternity being applied to general non-existance of it :P
That is probably close. But, looking at Noname55's post I would have to say that my Earthly preception of time would be more of a one time personal happening (My Life) that I will one day have to justify.

So perhaps I am thinking in terms of different understandings of time and what I perceive will depend on which understanding of time I am using. Using the concept of time being an entity I perceive it as being a unique non-replicable event for each of us. Since it can not be repeated, it is essential we do not loose or waste any of it.
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
That is probably close. But, looking at Noname55's post I would have to say that my Earthly preception of time would be more of a one time personal happening (My Life) that I will one day have to justify.

So perhaps I am thinking in terms of different understandings of time and what I perceive will depend on which understanding of time I am using. Using the concept of time being an entity I perceive it as being a unique non-replicable event for each of us. Since it can not be repeated, it is essential we do not loose or waste any of it.
Does sound like the Eternal perception. One incredibily long string without breaks so to speak till your 'battery' runs out haha
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Ghira
09-14-2007, 01:43 PM
Hello... This is how I see time.. I guess it would be hard for you to understand since you are an athiest. I see this as a Muslims forum and I will explain the Muslim view. Plus I like your question.

God is the Creator of everything, including Time. God is beyond Time. Now imagine - Past, Present and Future as residing on the same plane or same straight line. This whole plane is viewed by God at the same time since He is beyond Time. Now we (creation) are always bound inside time dimension (imagine a particular, limited area on the plane). To be precise we are always bound in ‘present and now’. And this "now" is constantly in transformation. We can only think about future (kind of illusion) and before we grasp what is ‘now’ it becomes past.

Since God is beyond time, He knows all, and His knowing itself signifies everything is written. Because God can see past, present, future on the same plane (don’t take it too literally, its concept only). So the claim that God is all knowing is true because Knowing Everything is part of His Essence.

At the same time, as human being we live in present all the time, we are given choices. We can not skip choices and simply jump to future. We have to chose, we have to be responsible how we transform our ‘now’ into future. So there is this validity of judgment by God. Because by the very nature of time, we are responsible for carving our future. It is essential for me to see time as something that is limited, and that since our Creator knows what lies ahead, as a servant of the Creator I easily turn to Him in supplication in times of difficulty and time of happiness because the Creator has complete knowledge of the future and is in complete/total control. I am always in need of something and The Creator is never in need of anything and is the eternal provider. We always are asking because we as Muslims know our role as a servant in this enormous world. As the Prophet (saw) said that "Supplication is the essence of worship." Supplication is regarded as something essential in the life of a Muslim and highly emphasized. Even an athiest at a time of desperate need would temporarly turn to his/her Creator for help. Imagine if your an airplane or drowing in the ocean you will absolutely turn to your Creator for help and rescue and you most likely will promise to do many good things if kept alive. Then after you are rescued you turn away and deny The All Mighty rescued you and deny that you even made the promise.
This example is given in the Qur'an if someone wants to post it here....
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Sarada
09-14-2007, 02:11 PM
I agree with Woodrow's concept of time, but I would like to add my experiences about the rate of progress of time.

When I was a child, time moved very slowly, 5 minutes seemed such a long time to wait before I could go outside.

If Mom told me that we were visiting Grandma tomorrow, it seemed like forever.

When it was bedtime, I couldn't understand how the time had flown by so fast.

Now, at the advanced age of 57, I blink, and it's already next month.

Time is subjective.

Here is a little story:

Once upon a time, a man said to God: "O God, is it true that what is but a moment for you is like a million years to me?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, verily it is so."

And the man then said: " O God, is it also true that what is but a speck of gold for you, is like a mountain of gold to me?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, verily it is so."

Then the man asked: "O God, would you please give me one of your specks of gold?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, wait a moment, and I will give it to you."


For me, time is cyclical, the seasons come, go and then come again. As a Hindu, I believe that I take birth in a body, the body dies, and I take birth in another body.

Time is an illusion, it has no reality of its own. It depends entirely on how each one of us perceives it. As a mathematical concept, it helps us to understand the physical world from a particular perspective.

Perhaps there are concepts and perspectives not involving time as we conceive it that would show us a different view of the world.
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NoName55
09-14-2007, 02:57 PM
I am sorely being tempted to reply contrary to the promise of no arguments for this month
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Ghira
Hello... ....
I could be wrong, but it sounds you are also leaning towards to eternal persepction of time. That said, remember I too was an atheist once so faith concepts arnt as alien to us as one imagines :P
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Sarada
For me, time is cyclical, the seasons come, go and then come again. As a Hindu, I believe that I take birth in a body, the body dies, and I take birth in another body.

Time is an illusion, it has no reality of its own. It depends entirely on how each one of us perceives it. As a mathematical concept, it helps us to understand the physical world from a particular perspective.

Perhaps there are concepts and perspectives not involving time as we conceive it that would show us a different view of the world.
I thought as much. Kinda hard to be a hindu without the birth, death and rebirth cycle. Do you also view life events as merely slightly different events of of times past?
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Sarada
09-14-2007, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
I thought as much. Kinda hard to be a hindu without the birth, death and rebirth cycle. Do you also view life events as merely slightly different events of of times past?
No. Some Hindus, such as the Brahma Kumaris, believe that everything that is happenning, is already taken place before. I don't buy into this because I believe in karma and free will. If everything has already happenned, how can there be free will?

Personally, through my meditative experiences, I get the sense that comsological time as we concieve it, does not exist. In order for time to exist, there has to be a beginning, middle and end.

Time only has meaning at our mundane level of consciousness. For example, the principles of mechanical physics serve us well in our day to day lives, but, at the sub-atomic level, a whole new set of principles is needed to understand what's going on. Similarly with time.
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Sarada
09-14-2007, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
I am sorely being tempted to reply contrary to the promise of no arument for this month
Salaam No Name,

Instead of arguing, why do you not just tell us how you see time?

After all, most of us see time quite differently. Just because I see it one way, does not mean that I am right, or that I want everyone to see it that way.
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NoName55
09-14-2007, 04:14 PM
Thanks for reps and message of peace, I have no objection to the following
Originally Posted by Sarada
I agree with Woodrow's concept of time, but I would like to add my experiences about the rate of progress of time.

When I was a child, time moved very slowly, 5 minutes seemed such a long time to wait before I could go outside.

If Mom told me that we were visiting Grandma tomorrow, it seemed like forever.

When it was bedtime, I couldn't understand how the time had flown by so fast.

Now, at the advanced age of 57, I blink, and it's already next month.

Time is subjective.
following story is a different matter, to which I shall ,The God willing, reply in 30 days

and peace to you also
Here is a little story:

Once upon a time, a man said to God: "O God, is it true that what is but a moment for you is like a million years to me?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, verily it is so."

And the man then said: " O God, is it also true that what is but a speck of gold for you, is like a mountain of gold to me?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, verily it is so."

Then the man asked: "O God, would you please give me one of your specks of gold?"

And God answered: "Yes, my son, wait a moment, and I will give it to you."


For me, time is cyclical, the seasons come, go and then come again. As a Hindu, I believe that I take birth in a body, the body dies, and I take birth in another body.

Time is an illusion, it has no reality of its own. It depends entirely on how each one of us perceives it. As a mathematical concept, it helps us to understand the physical world from a particular perspective.

Perhaps there are concepts and perspectives not involving time as we conceive it that would show us a different view of the world.
Reply

Isambard
09-14-2007, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Thanks for reps and message of peace, I have no objection to the following
following story is a different matter, to which I shall ,The God willing, reply in 30 days

and peace to you also
How would giving your opinion of the nature of time conflict with resolutions you've made for Ramadan?
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NoName55
09-14-2007, 07:03 PM
I wonder how one can get rid of a certain stalker or two? ah yes perhaps one should ignore 'em ( yup that is it! ureka! he's got it
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Isambard
09-14-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
I wonder how one can get rid of a certain stalker or two? ah yes perhaps one should ignore 'em ( yup that is it! ureka! he's got it
Seeing as how I created this thread, wouldnt you be the stalker in this scenerio?:hiding:
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snakelegs
09-14-2007, 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sarada
Now, at the advanced age of 57, I blink, and it's already next month.

Time is subjective.
something to look forward to:
when you're 62, time goes even faster!

another way you can tell how very subjective it is, if you don't like it, a 3 minute song lasts at least 10 minutes.
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