But why Islam?

[Draco]

Hi all.

As an atheist, it always fascinates me how religious people 'choose' one religion over another. My Muslim friends in particular, know very little of other religions and indeed are not even willing to explore or learn about them - yet alone consider atheism as a possibility. I would assume that exploring other faiths (or atheism) is not encouraged by your religious leaders but are any Muslims in the forum willing to admit that they have considered alternatives?

Thanks.

Draco

[Woodrow]

I would say many of us are encouraged to read about all religions. We do not accept Islam upon the teachings of any religious leader. Islam has no ordained clergy nor any living Human authority. We do seek the guidance of scholars that have studied and read more than we have, but we do not accept their teachings simply because they say so. We do question everything. We are not to accept Islam on blind faith, it has to be faith based upon knowledge.

Nearly all of the World's Muslims live in non-Islamic countries and as such have much exposure to many religions. There are more Muslims in the USA than in Kuwait

Kuwait Population

Kuwait > Demographics


Population: 2,505,559
note: includes 1,291,354 non-nationals (July 2007 est.)

Source:http://www.indexmundi.com/kuwait/population.html

Qatar-- Population: 907,229 (2007)

Source: http://www.worldstatesmen.org/Qatar.htm

#103 Jordan: 6,053,193

#119 United Arab Emirates: 4,444,011

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/pe...ple-population

or Palestine

West Bank and Gaza Strip 3,900,000

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

Muslim Population of USA

Q: What about the American Muslim community?

A: An estimated 7 million Muslims live in the USA. They are made up of people from a wide variety of ethnic backgrounds and national origins. Islam is one of the fastest-growing religions in the United States and around the world.

Source: http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/islam.htm

# Encyclopedia Britannica places the number at 5.4 million.
# Other estimates, including our own think tank ISPI, place the number around 7 million.
# Recent study on mosques in the US, conducted jointly by the “Hartford seminary” and “CAIR” gives an indirect estimate of the growth of the Muslim population in the US.
# One-fifth (19%) of American Muslims are converts to Islam.
Source: http://www.ispi-usa.org/Islam_intro/intro_islam32.html

The point of this being is to show that the majority of the world's Muslims do have considerable exposure to other religions and Islam is by our own choice.

[believer]

Hi all.

As an atheist, it always fascinates me how religious people 'choose' one religion over another. My Muslim friends in particular, know very little of other religions and indeed are not even willing to explore or learn about them - yet alone consider atheism as a possibility. I would assume that exploring other faiths (or atheism) is not encouraged by your religious leaders but are any Muslims in the forum willing to admit that they have considered alternatives?

Thanks.

Draco

I was born Roman Catholic, studied in my early years in a Protestant Pre-School... again became strong Catholic... then exposed to various Protestant Groups and eventually explored Ecumenical churches... Later on, hanged around with budhists and then with Atheists... eventually, immersed into New Age...then after w while... became a Bum... and became a worshipper of vices... then, became moderate Christian... again, became a Bum... finally after having been through everything and everywhere... and after being down and out... I surrendered to God... realizing that I am powerless and helpless without Him. then I was discovered by Islam... I have read the OT and NT Bibles cover to cover and has been a Seminarian for Priesthood also before but I have never read the Qur'an... and finally, after reading it... I am convinced that my search is over.... and to answer your question...

No, I don't feel like there is any alternative to Islam.

[Woodrow]

I was born Roman Catholic, studied in my early years in a Protestant Pre-School... again became strong Catholic... then exposed to various Protestant Groups and eventually explored Ecumenical churches... Later on, hanged around with budhists and then with Atheists... eventually, immersed into New Age...then after w while... became a Bum... and became a worshipper of vices... then, became moderate Christian... again, became a Bum... finally after having been through everything and everywhere... and after being down and out... I surrendered to God... realizing that I am powerless and helpless without Him. then I was discovered by Islam... I have read the OT and NT Bibles cover to cover and has been a Seminarian for Priesthood also before but I have never read the Qur'an... and finally, after reading it... I am convinced that my search is over.... and to answer your question...

No, I don't feel like there is any alternative to Islam.

I just have to add this in. I also was a good catholic and also was a seminarian for the priesthood. I think that ended at about my first comparative religion class.

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[bewildred]

I think that most people didnt choose to be muslims. It's Islam that chose us. I mean, even those who are muslim by heredity tend to rediscover their religion through new aspects.

Most people under the great emblem of Islam are open to learn about all other religions. The fact is that too many clichés and misconceptions about muslims are carried through mass media.

Bewildred S.

[Sheba]

Hi all.

As an atheist, it always fascinates me how religious people 'choose' one religion over another. My Muslim friends in particular, know very little of other religions and indeed are not even willing to explore or learn about them - yet alone consider atheism as a possibility. I would assume that exploring other faiths (or atheism) is not encouraged by your religious leaders but are any Muslims in the forum willing to admit that they have considered alternatives?

Thanks.

Draco

I did not have a religion, although I believed in God..praying only at times of need. However a trip to Mexico 16 years ago lead me to Islam. I was not looking for a religion. Instead I found a way of life that gave meaning to my life...that way of life is Islam.

We must not forget, Islam is not simply a religion...it is a way that God wishes us to lead our lives. The guidance that God gives is there for all those who wish to follow and if followed correctly according to the Quran, a perfect way of life it is too.

[glo]

Hi all.

As an atheist, it always fascinates me how religious people 'choose' one religion over another. My Muslim friends in particular, know very little of other religions and indeed are not even willing to explore or learn about them - yet alone consider atheism as a possibility. I would assume that exploring other faiths (or atheism) is not encouraged by your religious leaders but are any Muslims in the forum willing to admit that they have considered alternatives?

Thanks.

Draco

I think you might find that there is a difference between those who converted/reverted to a faith, and those who were born into and raised in that faith.

You will find that many Muslims here at LI are reverts to Islam.
Like all converts/reverts they are likely to have walked a path which explored other faiths and worldviews ... until they reached this particular one.

There is a possibility that those who seek may continue to seek and find themselves exploring other faiths in the future, regardless of how convinced they are by their beliefs at this moment in time.
The same applies to you and me, and everybody else. Who knows what life might throw at us. Can you see yourself being a devout Muslim/Buddhist/Christian/Hindy/Pagan in years to come?? You can't?? Well - who knows!! :D

I find that those who were born into and raised in a faith can be much less brave to venture out into other world views/beliefs and explore them.
After all, by exploring other beliefs you have to open your mind to other opinions and views - some of which may be a danger to your own!
That's why many people will not engage at all with other faiths.
For some, dabbling with other faiths may put their own beliefs in jeopardy ...

Peace

[Fishman]

I just have to add this in. I also was a good catholic and also was a seminarian for the priesthood. I think that ended at about my first comparative religion class.

:sl:
I've noticed that there are a lot of converts who are from a Catholic or (in the UK at least) a Celtic background. Anybody got any theories on why this is?
:w:

[Woodrow]

:sl:
I've noticed that there are a lot of converts who are from a Catholic or (in the UK at least) a Celtic background. Anybody got any theories on why this is?
:w:

:w:

I think you will find not only were many Catholic, but were very devout Catholics at one time. Many Catholic reverts had also been Priests or seminarians at some point.

(understand I am older generation and the younger Catholics of todays generation might not still do those things.)

My own theory is Islam is not that alien to Catholics. remember for a long time Catholics only accepted the Bible written in Latin and did not consider translations to be the Bible. Catholics fast for 40 days during lent. Catholics use rosary beads as prayer reminders. Catholics believe in praying 5 times a day. Catholics use many references to God(swt) in daily actiities. They say God Bless you when a person sneeses, they say Praise God when something good happens, They say "May God forgive me if I am wrong" when they give religious advice.

Many Catholics view the NT as being more metaphorical than fact. Catholics place more emphasis on God(swt) and less on Isa(as).

Many more things too.

So to sum it up if a Catholic finds the error in some Catholic Teachings and remove them the end result is they discover that they believe as Muslims do.

[MustafaMc]

I find that those who were born into and raised in a faith can be much less brave to venture out into other world views/beliefs and explore them.
After all, by exploring other beliefs you have to open your mind to other opinions and views - some of which may be a danger to your own!
That's why many people will not engage at all with other faiths.
For some, dabbling with other faiths may put their own beliefs in jeopardy ...

Peace

I believe that you hit upon an important point. Our religous views are often an important aspect of our personal identity. If all of our family and friends believe a certain way then subconciously we may choose to believe the same way in order to fit in. To consider a different, often opposing, point view that challenges our perception of reality is quite rare I believe. To believe differently from those surrounding us calls for a lot of courage (or willingness to take risks) in order to venture forth into the unknown.

[glo]

:sl:
I've noticed that there are a lot of converts who are from a Catholic or (in the UK at least) a Celtic background. Anybody got any theories on why this is?
:w:

I don't know what you mean by Celtic background, but I agree with much Woodrow said about Catholicism.

Speaking from my own Catholic upbringing I would say that Catholicism emphasizes laws and rituals to a greater extend than Protestantism, and has (in my experience) a lesser emphasis on a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
(I am sure there would be Catholics who would disagree with me. I am purely speaking from my own experience)

So in some ways Catholicism and Islam have similarities.

I think some Christians turn to Islam because they seek firm rules and a certain rigidity (which in turn offers a sense of security), which they don't seem to find in Christianity.

I hope you are well, Fishman. Our paths don't seem to cross very often these days.
Peace :thankyou:

[Draco]

I believe that you hit upon an important point. Our religous views are often an important aspect of our personal identity. If all of our family and friends believe a certain way then subconciously we may choose to believe the same way in order to fit in. To consider a different, often opposing, point view that challenges our perception of reality is quite rare I believe. To believe differently from those surrounding us calls for a lot of courage (or willingness to take risks) in order to venture forth into the unknown.

I find it interesting that you make this observation Mustafa, particularly as you are a Muslim, but I'm certainly inclined to agree with your point.

I'm of the opinion that many religious people, Muslims in particular, risk being ostracized by their family and community if they choose to abandon their belief. A belief that is typically heavily intertwined into their daily lives.

I was raised a Roman Catholic but later became agnostic and finally atheist. I personally did not find it difficult to apostatise but my religious rituals involved merely going to church every Sunday. After I started critically analysing my faith and finding the flaws in it’s reasoning, it was not hard to remove my weekly attendance to the church from my routine. My life barely changed other than the fact that I didn’t have to wake up early on Sunday mornings any longer – but even this was a great relief.

For Muslims, I think there are many more rituals that must be adhered to on a daily basis and, after many years, these become part of daily life and are much more difficult to depart from. Similarly, there are more community rituals for which an apostate would no longer feel part of.

Perhaps these practical difficulties contribute to preventing critically analysing one’s religion?

[Woodrow]

Perhaps these practical difficulties contribute to preventing critically analysing one’s religion?

One thing about asking questions. all questions are biased and the answers will differ based on the audience the question is directed to. The audience here is composed to a very large extent of very open minded people that have critically analyzed their beliefs.

I doubt if you will find many LI members who fear any analysis or refutations of their beliefs. Very few people who are not secure in their beliefs, would even venture forth to explore a forum that allows open refutations and encourages debate over beliefs.

We do have the "Comparative Religion" section closed until after Ramadan, but once the section reopens, I believe you will find that most of the Muslim members here are quite well informed of the beliefs of other faiths and we remain Muslim based upon informed faith and have come to the conclusion we accept Islam by choice and not because of heritage.

[MustafaMc]

I think some Christians turn to Islam because they seek firm rules and a certain rigidity (which in turn offers a sense of security), which they don't seem to find in Christianity.

This may apply to some Muslim reverts, but it definitely does not apply to my own experience. Having grown up as a Baptist, there were very few religous rituals in my upbringing. The rituals of Islam, particularly the 5 daily prayers, were a difficult aspect for me to adjust to. It has required considerable discipline to learn portions of the Quran in Arabic and to structure my daily life such that I make time for prayer. My reason for choosing Islam has more to do with my perception that Islam 1)teaches the proper beliefs about God, 2) that it is the Will of my Creator for how to live my life - one aspect of which is how to properly worship Him and 3) that it is the only means to gain Paradise and to avoid Hellfire.

[amille40]

I think the reason there are so many former christian reverts to Islam (myself among them) is also due to the ease at which one can go from the New Testament to the Quran. It is simply a step forward spiritually.

I, like you Draco and similar to many others who look across many faiths, landed in atheism for awhile. While it made sense to me at the time, I found that I couldnt get out of the habit of asking something greater than myself for help. Looking back now on my confusion then I had basically surrendered to God and asked for his help while still disbelieving. I am so grateful that I was always given the strength to continue looking for faith and was led to Islam.

I personally dont think one can fully understand or appreciate their religion without being able to discourse on other religions- to see what they have that others are not offered. I would also think (again, my opinion) that testing ones faith by learning about others is a testament to their conviction. I don't think any Muslims fear or refuse to learn about others religions, but rather may be ignorant of it due to their geographic location. Hey, there are still something like 10% of americans who cant place America on a map.

[Intisar]

Never considered leaving Islam. The Quran is way too powerful. I have explored other religions and I honestly see it as a blessing to be (born) a Muslim because I do not indulge in what Allah has prohibited. The Quran refutes other religions. Atheism to me is just plain ridiculous but when I was younger I tried to explore the concept of God and the world around me. Still learning though, it makes my imaan (faith) stronger. Hope that answers your question Draco. :)

[DAWUD_adnan]

[QUOTE=amille40;831554]Hey, there are still something like 10% of americans who cant place America on a map.[/QUOTE]


lol, I remember this, such as , such as ,:D

[Draco]

I, like you Draco and similar to many others who look across many faiths, landed in atheism for awhile. While it made sense to me at the time, I found that I couldnt get out of the habit of asking something greater than myself for help. Looking back now on my confusion then I had basically surrendered to God and asked for his help while still disbelieving. I am so grateful that I was always given the strength to continue looking for faith and was led to Islam.

I must admit myself that from time to time, particularly in times of great trouble or strife, I'm tempted to pray for help out of the situation. But isn’t it just all too convenient to turn to someone (or something) that seemingly offers light at the end of the tunnel? I’ve observed that religion is often happy to step in when people are at their most needy and vulnerable, which has always made me suspicious of it. As you said Amille, you were looking for something, and if you’re looking for something badly enough you’re sure to find something.

[Draco]

Never considered leaving Islam. The Quran is way too powerful. I have explored other religions and I honestly see it as a blessing to be (born) a Muslim because I do not indulge in what Allah has prohibited. The Quran refutes other religions. Atheism to me is just plain ridiculous but when I was younger I tried to explore the concept of God and the world around me. Still learning though, it makes my imaan (faith) stronger. Hope that answers your question Draco. :)

I don't think it does answer my question, maybe you could clarify. For a start, why is atheism ridiculous to you?

[Woodrow]

I must admit myself that from time to time, particularly in times of great trouble or strife, I'm tempted to pray for help out of the situation. But isn’t it just all too convenient to turn to someone (or something) that seemingly offers light at the end of the tunnel? I’ve observed that religion is often happy to step in when people are at their most needy and vulnerable, which has always made me suspicious of it. As you said Amille, you were looking for something, and if you’re looking for something badly enough you’re sure to find something.

I’ve observed that religion is often happy to step in when people are at their most needy and vulnerable, which has always made me suspicious of it.

I agree with that. I can not understand how anybody could be persuaded to follow any Evangelist. You get a national disaster or a war and the evangelicals will flock to the scene faster than cats to a tuna fish cannery. (See note below for what I mean by evangelical in this context)

Then you get the "Fox hole saved agains" There are no atheists in a fox hole is largely true. People that normally don't believe in God(swt) suddenly become very religious when the bullets are flying. But, once the shooting stops and they see they are still alive the gratitude and purpose changes back to their "great" combat skills.

The ones who stay are usually the ones that feel like Allah(swt) found them at a time they did not feel any need to look for him. Most Muslim reverts did not seek to become Muslim or at least did not realize they were seeking. Very few reverts have ever been approached by a Muslim asking them to accept Islam. Many reverts actually have little knowledge about Islam, but oddly and for no apparent reason, they get an insatiable urge to learn all they can about Islam. They revert when they discover, becoming Muslim is not going to be an instant cure for anything, But, there is such a powerful desire to say the shahadah and live as a Muslim. There is no tangible reason why any person would revert to Islam. Yet, people who have never even seen the Qur'an are seeking to learn how to become Muslim. It is not an easy path and there are many obstacles, it only takes a matter of seconds to become a Muslim, but it takes a lifetime to be a Muslim.



NOTE: By evangelical I am not referring to any denomination or faith here. I mean a person of any faith that uses a disaster as a tool to impose their belief in God(swt). Sort of using a blackmail tactic rather than as a act of compassion.

[NoName55]

atheism is not only ridiculous to me but abhorrent too, but I dare not put it in to many words as I fear The Word Police will jump on me, to whom using certain words, on this site, is more reprehensible than promotion of filth and all the isms, as long as you sugarcoat it, you are free to post/promote any rubbish.

[Draco]

The ones who stay are usually the ones that feel like Allah(swt) found them at a time they did not feel any need to look for him. Most Muslim reverts did not seek to become Muslim or at least did not realize they were seeking. Very few reverts have ever been approached by a Muslim asking them to accept Islam. Many reverts actually have little knowledge about Islam, but oddly and for no apparent reason, they get an insatiable urge to learn all they can about Islam. They revert when they discover, becoming Muslim is not going to be an instant cure for anything, But, there is such a powerful desire to say the shahadah and live as a Muslim. There is no tangible reason why any person would revert to Islam. Yet, people who have never even seen the Qur'an are seeking to learn how to become Muslim. <snip>

Perhaps that is your experience Woodrow and I've no doubt that others feel the same way. But just as you describe many that "feel a powerful desire" to become Muslim or "get an insatiable urge to learn all they can about Islam" there are many more that do not experience any such emotions - or if they do - it's towards another religion. Substitute the words “Islam” for “Christianity” and “Muslim” for ”Christian” and your own words could quite easily have been spoken by a devout Christian. I’m sure given your experience with a variety of religions Woodrow that you would have heard this kind of emotive reasoning many times before in different religious contexts. For me it doesn’t provide a satisfactory answer the question: why Islam?

[Intisar]

I don't think it does answer my question, maybe you could clarify. For a start, why is atheism ridiculous to you?

Not believing that there is a superior being is ridiculous to me. Whenever I read the Quran it reinforces the idea that there is a superior being who made each and everyone of us -- who was selfless and doesn't get anything out of breathing life into us. If you read the Quran, it refutes all of the disputes about whether there is a God. That's why I think atheism is ridiculous. Because atheists don't believe that there is a God.

[Draco]

Not believing that there is a superior being is ridiculous to me. Whenever I read the Quran it reinforces the idea that there is a superior being who made each and everyone of us -- who was selfless and doesn't get anything out of breathing life into us. <snip>

Sister-Ameena, isn’t it obvious that reading a book (like the Quran) that proclaims the existence of God is bound to reinforce it for you? Have you ever tried reading a book that refutes the existence of God? If so, which ones? And if not, why not?

[جوري]

I'll start with the process of elimination-- instead of why-- (the why not)!
Atheism:
TO ME, is sterile, uni-dimensional having no depth or scope, its moral compass oscillates to the tides (if at all)--its value being measured wholly in terms of its truth-- but therein lies no 'truth' .. as it offers no explanation in part or as a whole to the stately splendor of the universe and all that dwells in it.
Its representatives for the most part are offensive to the mind and injurious to the soul-- that most refined non-palpable element that defines humanity; and they are generally unrestricted by the reservations that would hold others at bay. Its matter-of-fact is non-demonstrable save for the decorative words its members use under the pretext of humanism while treating condescendingly those who subscribe to faith as of is as if they were unlearned pariahs. The irony is they don't realize how flat and blunted they are in the process!

this is first part in series of why nots.. to be continued....

[Woodrow]

Perhaps that is your experience Woodrow and I've no doubt that others feel the same way. But just as you describe many that "feel a powerful desire" to become Muslim or "get an insatiable urge to learn all they can about Islam" there are many more that do not experience any such emotions - or if they do - it's towards another religion. Substitute the words “Islam” for “Christianity” and “Muslim” for ”Christian” and your own words could quite easily have been spoken by a devout Christian. I’m sure given your experience with a variety of religions Woodrow that you would have heard this kind of emotive reasoning many times before in different religious contexts. For me it doesn’t provide a satisfactory answer the question: why Islam?

Your key words:

For me it doesn’t provide a satisfactory answer the question: why Islam?

For me the satisfactory answer to Why Islam is very simple. based on my somewhat limited knowledge, I do not see any way possible for a Human to have composed the Qur'an. Arabic is not a very musical language, spoken Arabic sounds sort of like a camel trying to cough up a hair ball. Yet Arabic singing and poetry is beautiful sounding, but to get the sounds and tones the songs and poems have no logical meaning. the Qur'an is both consistently Beautiful in the sounds and at the same time carries a very clear message. To my concept of linguistics this would be the equivalent of writing the US Constitution in a poetic manner and set to the tune of Beethoven's fifth.

To add to that I have seen ample evidence that many things that could not have been known to Muhammad(PBUH) are said in the Qur'an and it is only recently have these things even been seen by man,.

I am convinced that the Qur'an was not written by man. Since the Qur'an itself says it was written by Allah(swt) I can accept that as fact because to me that is the only logical explanation.

For me that is a satisfactory reason why it is Islam.

[NYCmuslim]

There are many athiests and non-religous scientists that have reverted to Islam for the simple fact they were able to find scientific facts in the verses of the Quran that were later affirmed by man only until recent years (by "recent" I mean within the past 200-300 years. The Quran was revelead more than 1400 years ago). Everything from the description of the human embryo (there were no microscopes back then), to the interaction of salt and fresh water, to the function of mountains, creation of the universe (theres actually a verse in the Quran that says the universe is expanding), the light of the moon, as well as other things. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate, he could not read or write, and therefore couldn't have discovered these things on his own, which in turn proves that he didn't write the Quran.

Some non-human Being must have known these facts and revealed it to us. That same Being must have created the universe and therefore knew everything about it. We call this being Allah (God).

Peace be to you all :ws:

[Md Mashud]

You see, Islam believe, in Moses, Jesus etc. Christianity has left Prophet Muhammad :saw: as a liar/fake, Judaism has left both Jesus :ra: and our Prophet :saw: as liar/fake.

But when you study Muhammad :saw, their is no way I could justify him being fake while Jesus/Moses being true. He was the best of the best of people.

When I studied religion, and history of religion - you see how it works. Messages have been past down by 124k prophet/messengers - its same message in fundamental (1 god) - the final one being our prophet :saw:. Id be christian if I was not convinced that Prophet :saw: was not a real prophet and that his revelations were not the full truth.

Studying Bible/Torah/Quran could also enlighten people.

Atheists I find generally to find each religion to be of equal weight. But I wonder how many people would feel same way if they had studied Hinduism/Judaism/Christianity/Islam - and what they have to say about religion/past and present.

[MustafaMc]

For me it doesn’t provide a satisfactory answer the question: why Islam?

Perhaps there is no reason that will prove satisfactory to your mind. The reasons for choosing Islam are personal for each one of us Muslims. Is there really one single "right" answer?

As I have stated earlier: My reason for choosing Islam has more to do with my perception that Islam

1) teaches the proper beliefs about God. Whether you like it or not, I choose to believe in Allah (swt) as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. At one time I believed the Christian concept of Trinity - even though I could not explain it. Today I believe in Allah, but still admit that He is beyond my ability to understand.

2) that it is the Will of my Creator for how to live my life - one aspect of which is how to properly worship Him. There was a time when I was searching for meaning to my life. Although I did not choose Islam because it gave my life meaning, I have since learned that the purpose for our lives is to worship Allah. For me worshiping Allah is in the continual struggle to submit my personal will and animalistic urges to the Will of Allah as delineated by the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (saaws).

3) that it is the only means to gain Paradise and to avoid Hellfire. I have to admit that a primary motivator for me to choose Islam is my belief in the Hereafter with eternal punishment or reward. I believe that Islam provides the roadmap for how to walk "the staight and narrow" way that leads to Paradise.

[snakelegs]

I must admit myself that from time to time, particularly in times of great trouble or strife, I'm tempted to pray for help out of the situation. But isn’t it just all too convenient to turn to someone (or something) that seemingly offers light at the end of the tunnel? I’ve observed that religion is often happy to step in when people are at their most needy and vulnerable, which has always made me suspicious of it. As you said Amille, you were looking for something, and if you’re looking for something badly enough you’re sure to find something.

there is something to be said for prayer. you reach the point where you accept that something is beyond your control. the power lies in surrendering by turning it over to god. there is strength in vulnerability.
any muslim would know this - there is strength in the ability to submit and islam is submission.
some people feel a need for religion in order to do this and some do not.
but prayer is not weakness.
anyway, that's my take on it.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i honestly never saw the need to consider alternatives, i was raised as a muslim and it both felt right and made sense. I feel its given me strength and taught me much.

Islam just feels like the natural way, like the way we're meant to pass this life...

[------]

:salamext:

Islaam...it just feels... RIGHT. Everything makes sense :D

[Draco]

Your key words:
For me the satisfactory answer to Why Islam is very simple. based on my somewhat limited knowledge, I do not see any way possible for a Human to have composed the Qur'an. <snip>

To add to that I have seen ample evidence that many things that could not have been known to Muhammad(PBUH) are said in the Qur'an and it is only recently have these things even been seen by man,.

I am convinced that the Qur'an was not written by man. Since the Qur'an itself says it was written by Allah(swt) I can accept that as fact because to me that is the only logical explanation.

There are many athiests and non-religous scientists that have reverted to Islam for the simple fact they were able to find scientific facts in the verses of the Quran that were later affirmed by man only until recent years (by "recent" I mean within the past 200-300 years. The Quran was revelead more than 1400 years ago). Everything from the description of the human embryo (there were no microscopes back then), to the interaction of salt and fresh water, to the function of mountains, creation of the universe (theres actually a verse in the Quran that says the universe is expanding), the light of the moon, as well as other things. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was illiterate, he could not read or write, and therefore couldn't have discovered these things on his own, which in turn proves that he didn't write the Quran.

Many of my Muslim friends have spoken of the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an and even it's predictive accuracy (given the time of it's writing). I always feel this is rather shaky ground for the Quran. I think if we are all honest, we realise that modern science is incredibly powerful and will always have the upper hand when it comes to explaining the world we live in. I’ve read many posts where Islam (and other religions) attempt to take on science head on. The debates usually go round in circles with the religious either claiming scientific processes as the work of God or being forced to directly disagree with strong scientific theories.

What fascinates me is how otherwise intelligent and rational people (as I presume most in this forum are) refuse to question the authenticity of the Quran in the light of such strong scientific evidence to the contrary. Remember that science does not exist purely to refute religious claims. It’s there (hopefully) so that we can all benefit from its advances. Our scientific expertise is something we can all be interested in, contribute to and indeed be proud of. However if it happens to go against what scripture says – which we know it does at times - then shouldn’t we start scrutinising the scripture?

[Woodrow]

Many of my Muslim friends have spoken of the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an and even it's predictive accuracy (given the time of it's writing). I always feel this is rather shaky ground for the Quran. I think if we are all honest, we realise that modern science is incredibly powerful and will always have the upper hand when it comes to explaining the world we live in. I’ve read many posts where Islam (and other religions) attempt to take on science head on. The debates usually go round in circles with the religious either claiming scientific processes as the work of God or being forced to directly disagree with strong scientific theories.

Truth is Truth. It makes no difference as to what proves it. Truth will be verified as truth, provided it is truth and the measurement tools have the ability to measure it. Scientific methods do not explain the whys they only explain the how. Religion is not interested in the how it is interested in the why. It is not that they clash with each other, just two different topics.

What fascinates me is how otherwise intelligent and rational people (as I presume most in this forum are) refuse to question the authenticity of the Quran in the light of such strong scientific evidence to the contrary. Remember that science does not exist purely to refute religious claims. It’s there (hopefully) so that we can all benefit from its advances. Our scientific expertise is something we can all be interested in, contribute to and indeed be proud of. However if it happens to go against what scripture says – which we know it does at times - then shouldn’t we start scrutinising the scripture?

Makes as much sense as saying we should agree about the chemical make up of the paint when I don't care how the paint is made as long as I know it is white paint in the can. we err when we fail to see that science and religion are not the same and serve different purpose.

Quite simply if it is truth it will hold up to scrutiny.

[Draco]

<snip> Scientific methods do not explain the whys they only explain the how. Religion is not interested in the how it is interested in the why. It is not that they clash with each other, just two different topics.

...we err when we fail to see that science and religion are not the same and serve different purpose.

I disagree here Woodrow. Science does explain the whys. It does a fantastic job of explaining the world we live in today and, importantly, how we came to exist.

Understanding the process of how we as humans and all other life around us came to be, explains very much why things are the way they are today and indeed why we are here.

Of course I’m talking about the process of evolution. It really is beautiful and elegant and has no need for the “hand of God” in order for it to proceed as it has been proceeding for billions of years. I realise that evolution as a scientific theory is a bone of contention on this forum but I wonder (without sounding condescending) whether people in this discussion have a true understanding of it? I say so only because once I fully understood evolution as a scientific concept* it was like an awakening, perhaps similar to the kind of experience many Muslims on this forum describe when they find Islam for the first time. The difference however, is that there is a wealth of evidence to back up the theory, which I feel is lacking in Islam and other religions. The theory doesn’t have to “feel right” or “seem natural”, the terms other posters have used when describing their conviction to Islam. It just lays out the evidence on the table and says ‘here it is! Look what we have discovered! See for yourself!’ What’s so appealing about that for me is that doesn’t require a belief in anything or require that leap of faith. Does you appreciate that point Woodrow (or anyone else)?

* It was not until quite recently that I actually did understand it. I always thought I had a notion of what it was and it’s a very familiar word but I don’t think I had fully grasped its merits.

[Draco]

there is something to be said for prayer. you reach the point where you accept that something is beyond your control. the power lies in surrendering by turning it over to god. there is strength in vulnerability.
any muslim would know this - there is strength in the ability to submit and islam is submission.
some people feel a need for religion in order to do this and some do not.
but prayer is not weakness.
anyway, that's my take on it.

I take it snakelegs that you are a deist - do you yourself pray? Why have you not subscribed to a particualr religion - say Islam for arguments sake?

[Woodrow]

I disagree here Woodrow. Science does explain the whys. It does a fantastic job of explaining the world we live in today and, importantly, how we came to exist.

Understanding the process of how we as humans and all other life around us came to be, explains very much why things are the way they are today and indeed why we are here.

Of course I’m talking about the process of evolution. It really is beautiful and elegant and has no need for the “hand of God” in order for it to proceed as it has been proceeding for billions of years. I realise that evolution as a scientific theory is a bone of contention on this forum but I wonder (without sounding condescending) whether people in this discussion have a true understanding of it? I say so only because once I fully understood evolution as a scientific concept* it was like an awakening, perhaps similar to the kind of experience many Muslims on this forum describe when they find Islam for the first time. The difference however, is that there is a wealth of evidence to back up the theory, which I feel is lacking in Islam and other religions. The theory doesn’t have to “feel right” or “seem natural”, the terms other posters have used when describing their conviction to Islam. It just lays out the evidence on the table and says ‘here it is! Look what we have discovered! See for yourself!’ What’s so appealing about that for me is that doesn’t require a belief in anything or require that leap of faith. Does you appreciate that point Woodrow (or anyone else)?

* It was not until quite recently that I actually did understand it. I always thought I had a notion of what it was and it’s a very familiar word but I don’t think I had fully grasped its merits.

Peace,

Reading this post I suspect that an existing problem is many deists and atheists have strong preconceived ideas about the other, and we end up arguing against what we perceive the other as believing.

Many of us deists begin with the assumption that an atheist has absolutely no belief in any thing. And that an atheist belives every thing exists without a cause or direction.

That is an error

Many atheists seem to think that deists believe science is false and that deists believe science is the religion of atheists. Some atheists seem to believe that deists are anti-science and deists believe that the religious books alone can explain everything in the universe.

That is also an error.

I am very much an evolutionist. I know evolution is a fact. The simple hybridization of todays food crops and domestic animals is sufficient to show that in even recent times. Todays farm animals and crops have very little resemblance to the crops of only 200 years ago. They were changed. We know how and why they changed. I am pretty much in agreement with the concept of "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny" This does not prevent me in believing that a creator is the source and that all natural events are a part of His(swt) creation.

The various theories and facts of the formation of the universe really do not say anything that denies the existence of a God(swt) I see nothing in error with the "Big Bang" theory. To me that is a valid explanation of what it would look like when in a fraction of a second a single thought of God(swt) suddenly became solid matter.

Now to the why. Why is a very big word and full of many connotations. All why questions result in another why question. Why does a dead bird fall from the sky? Because of gravity. Why is there gravity? Because it is a natural state of the space-time continuum. Why is it a natural state of the natural space-time continuum? ad infinitum ad nauseum

To me the only answer to the ultimate and final why is "Because that is how Allah(swt) created it." Why do I believe a Deity created the universe? Because if it were a spontaneous event new matter should be popping up like popcorn all over the place. I do not see any evidence that there is any matter that is either newer or older then any other bit of matter we can detect.

The question should be why doesn't matter spontaneously form more often, if it does not have a deliberate cause?

Now to paraphrase you:

Look at what the belief in a God(swt) means:

It just lays out the evidence on the table and says ‘here it is! Look what I have created! See for yourself!’ What’s so appealing about that for me is that doesn’t require an explanation in anything or require further justification. Do you appreciate that point Dorca?

[Draco]

Peace,

Reading this post I suspect that an existing problem is many deists and atheists have strong preconceived ideas about the other, and we end up arguing against what we perceive the other as believing.

Many of us deists begin with the assumption that an atheist has absolutely no belief in any thing. And that an atheist belives every thing exists without a cause or direction.

That is an error

Many atheists seem to think that deists believe science is false and that deists believe science is the religion of atheists. Some atheists seem to believe that deists are anti-science and deists believe that the religious books alone can explain everything in the universe.

That is also an error.

Agreed Woodrow.

I am very much an evolutionist. I know evolution is a fact. The simple hybridization of todays food crops and domestic animals is sufficient to show that in even recent times. Todays farm animals and crops have very little resemblance to the crops of only 200 years ago. They were changed. We know how and why they changed. I am pretty much in agreement with the concept of "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny" This does not prevent me in believing that a creator is the source and that all natural events are a part of His(swt) creation.

The various theories and facts of the formation of the universe really do not say anything that denies the existence of a God(swt) I see nothing in error with the "Big Bang" theory. To me that is a valid explanation of what it would look like when in a fraction of a second a single thought of God(swt) suddenly became solid matter.

Correct me if I'm wrong Woodrow, but doesn't some of the Quran's teaching about the earth and the universe very much contradict what modern science has discovered. I don't want to get into the specifics because there are numerous sites pitching science against religious scripture, but I'm sure we could have a lengthy debate about certain Quran passages that are innacurate or simply not true given what science has revealed to us about the universe so far. You seem to have reconciled the two in your own head but I fail to see how you've been able to do this. They cannot both be correct!

Now to the why. Why is a very big word and full of many connotations. All why questions result in another why question. Why does a dead bird fall from the sky? Because of gravity. Why is there gravity? Because it is a natural state of the space-time continuum. Why is it a natural state of the natural space-time continuum? ad infinitum ad nauseum

To me the only answer to the ultimate and final why is "Because that is how Allah(swt) created it." Why do I believe a Deity created the universe? Because if it were a spontaneous event new matter should be popping up like popcorn all over the place. I do not see any evidence that there is any matter that is either newer or older then any other bit of matter we can detect.

I think you fail to ask one more why question: why does Allah exist. Or who created him? Or why, even if he existed, would he go to the trouble of creating us? Or why, even if he did create us, would he want us to live our lives in a certain way? etc.

My point is that the God hypothesis raises many more why and how questions, arguably more than we currently have right now. What are the answers to these question? And as men of science Woodrow, aren't we supposed to be seeking the simplest answer, not an answer that poses even more questions than it solves?

[snakelegs]

I take it snakelegs that you are a deist - do you yourself pray? Why have you not subscribed to a particualr religion - say Islam for arguments sake?

yes i do pray. i've been an agnostic all my life and i wasn't raised in any religion. i never used to concern myself one way or the other with whether god existed or not. over the past 9 years i have come to believe in god.
i don't feel a need for a religion to worship god.
basically, i don't like religion very much and think it tends to get in the way.
i believe that god is beyond religion and that no religion can claim a monopoly on god.

[Woodrow]

Agreed Woodrow.



Correct me if I'm wrong Woodrow, but doesn't some of the Quran's teaching about the earth and the universe very much contradict what modern science has discovered. I don't want to get into the specifics because there are numerous sites pitching science against religious scripture, but I'm sure we could have a lengthy debate about certain Quran passages that are innacurate or simply not true given what science has revealed to us about the universe so far. You seem to have reconciled the two in your own head but I fail to see how you've been able to do this. They cannot both be correct!

Perhaps you are aware of places where it does. I have yet to find anything in the Qur'an that contradicts verified modern science. I see no conflict of what modern science has proven, with any Qur'anic writings.

If you can think of some specific areas, it would be a good topic of debate. But, this section is not for debate. The Comparative Religion section will reopen soon enough.

I think you fail to ask one more why question: why does Allah exist. Or who created him? Or why, even if he existed, would he go to the trouble of creating us? Or why, even if he did create us, would he want us to live our lives in a certain way? etc.

The question of why does God(swt) exist is well beyond my ability to comprehend. The only way I can fathom God(swt) could exist would be as a divine being with no beginning and no end. A being that transcends our physical world and beyond the limits of time or space. Why he would create us and want us to live our lives in a specific manner? Good question. He has no need of us. Yet, he has planned a universe that includes us.

My point is that the God hypothesis raises many more why and how questions, arguably more than we currently have right now. What are the answers to these question? And as men of science Woodrow, aren't we supposed to be seeking the simplest answer, not an answer that poses even more questions than it solves?

True and as you paraphrased Dr. Einstein, The simplest answer is usually the correct answer. What can be simpler than saying it was all created in accordance with a divine creator?

[Md Mashud]

Quran denies the macroevolution of humans - not microevolution - which is just adaptaions of creatures - to form different breeds or variation.

Quran does not deny any science, I have a post regarding this, http://www.islamicboard.com/824800-post60.html

Regards.

[MustafaMc]

Science does explain the whys. It does a fantastic job of explaining the world we live in today and, importantly, how we came to exist.

Understanding the process of how we as humans and all other life around us came to be, explains very much why things are the way they are today and indeed why we are here.

Of course I’m talking about the process of evolution. It really is beautiful and elegant and has no need for the “hand of God” in order for it to proceed as it has been proceeding for billions of years. I realise that evolution as a scientific theory is a bone of contention on this forum but I wonder (without sounding condescending) whether people in this discussion have a true understanding of it? I say so only because once I fully understood evolution as a scientific concept* it was like an awakening, perhaps similar to the kind of experience many Muslims on this forum describe when they find Islam for the first time.

Since you understand the theory of evolution, why don't you explain it such that I can understand? I will grant you the single, primodial "common ancestor" for all existent and extinct life forms - eukaryotic (plant, animal, fungi) and prokaryotic (bacteria). Describe in your own words the process through which higher organisms have eveloved from lower ones. I can understand evolution in the sense of relatively minor changes within a species to adapt to a changing environment, but I don't understand how the "common ancestor" gave rise to bacteria, plants, animals and fungi. Perhaps you can explain this to me.

[Draco]

Perhaps you are aware of places where it does. I have yet to find anything in the Qur'an that contradicts verified modern science. I see no conflict of what modern science has proven, with any Qur'anic writings.

If you can think of some specific areas, it would be a good topic of debate. But, this section is not for debate. The Comparative Religion section will reopen soon enough.

Surely Woodrow someone of your experience and religious standing is not completely unaware of the conflict between the holy teachings and modern science. A simple Google search will reveal hundreds of articles and forums that discuss and debate it all. Here’s an interesting one that’s well worth taking the time to read and there are some scientific discrepancies mentioned near the start:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul...tart:int=0&-C=

The question of why does God(swt) exist is well beyond my ability to comprehend. The only way I can fathom God(swt) could exist would be as a divine being with no beginning and no end. A being that transcends our physical world and beyond the limits of time or space.

It’s beyond my ability to comprehend it too Woodrow.

...Why he would create us and want us to live our lives in a specific manner? Good question. He has no need of us. Yet, he has planned a universe that includes us.

If he has no need for you then why lead your life according to such a specific set of rules? Why would such a set of rules exist? What's the point of even acknowledging it's existence if it has no need for you? So many unanswered questions...

[Draco]

Since you understand the theory of evolution, why don't you explain it such that I can understand? I will grant you the single, primodial "common ancestor" for all existent and extinct life forms - eukaryotic (plant, animal, fungi) and prokaryotic (bacteria). Describe in your own words the process through which higher organisms have eveloved from lower ones. I can understand evolution in the sense of relatively minor changes within a species to adapt to a changing environment, but I don't understand how the "common ancestor" gave rise to bacteria, plants, animals and fungi. Perhaps you can explain this to me.

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

[Draco]

yes i do pray. i've been an agnostic all my life and i wasn't raised in any religion. i never used to concern myself one way or the other with whether god existed or not. over the past 9 years i have come to believe in god.
i don't feel a need for a religion to worship god.
basically, i don't like religion very much and think it tends to get in the way.
i believe that god is beyond religion and that no religion can claim a monopoly on god.

That's interesting and if you don't mind me saying, a little strange. Who (or what) are you praying to? How does he/she/it hear you? Do you live your life in any particular way according to your God's wishes?

I can understand organised religion but how can a god of one person work? I hope this doesn't sound insulting but it compares very much to a child with an imaginary friend.

[Woodrow]

Surely Woodrow someone of your experience and religious standing is not completely unaware of the conflict between the holy teachings and modern science. A simple Google search will reveal hundreds of articles and forums that discuss and debate it all. Here’s an interesting one that’s well worth taking the time to read and there are some scientific discrepancies mentioned near the start:

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/jul...tart:int=0&-C=

I am very much aware of many of the alleged discrepancies. Yet each time I read one and than read what is actually said in the Qur'an. I find no discrepancy.

At the moment we are trying to keep the forum free from needless debate, for Ramadan. If you have patience I will be very happy for us to discuss this further and more extended in Comparative Religion, when we reopen it after Eid I believe that will be Oct. 11.

If he has no need for you then why lead your life according to such a specific set of rules? Why would such a set of rules exist? What's the point of even acknowledging it's existence if it has no need for you? So many unanswered questions...

Although Allah(swt) has no need for us he created each of us for a purpose. I do not understand the purpose.

While Allah(swt) may have no need for us, we have need for Him(swt), the rules are for our benefit and to fulfill our needs.

[NoName55]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

oh dear o dear!

busted big time.

you expect them (Bros. Woodrow and Mustafa) to do something that you yourself refuse to do.

They could have easily dismissed you by recommending some books and throwing some names (just like you threw in the name of an atheist "prophet")

[tarek29]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

Salam Darco,

I agree with you that there is people or to be specific scientist, thinkers etc... who gave their life to explain evolotuion and the result is:

Huge Number of theories, articles, book with and gainst Evolution!

in another word no one could prove it 100%!

if you ask any scientist general Question about science he will tell you that A B C scince that there is no 100 % proven theory even that were already proven, not mentioning the debatble ones!

So with evolution theories we cannot Proof anything as it will become personal opinions!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

PEACE

[Md Mashud]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

I think I should make it clear - Richard Dawkins book are not based on science - I say this based on experience of reading his texts and theories. Many of the things he says to do with religion - firstly are mirepresented and I could discredit the book alone on that. But when you read on, you see, the sheer amount of assumptions - theories of "this could be" or "what if", basically, its not science. It is explaining a process with theories that are not scientifically proven. Its all "faith", not scientific fact or evidenc.e

[snakelegs]

That's interesting and if you don't mind me saying, a little strange. Who (or what) are you praying to? How does he/she/it hear you? Do you live your life in any particular way according to your God's wishes?

I can understand organised religion but how can a god of one person work? I hope this doesn't sound insulting but it compares very much to a child with an imaginary friend.

no problem - i know it's weird. :giggling:
i pray to god same as religious people do. i do not know if he listens. i live my life according the the ethics and morals that i have developed throughout my life, which have nothing to do with god, though they differ little from religious systems of behavior. since i have come to believe in god (gradual process), my behavior is the same.
i am aware of feeling great gratitude and awe of nature.
i do not see religion and god as synonymous. i regard religions as institutionalized forms of worship. i think there are truths in all religions and there are positive benefits from the communal structure and worship.
i have always been a loner - if not for that, i might feel a need for a religion, i really don't know.

[bewildred]

The answer? Surat "El Kafiroon".

Bewildred S.

[MustafaMc]

Wow I don’t think I can give that question a satisfactory answer in a forum MustafaMc. And anyway why take my word for it? There are men and women who have spent a lifetime studying the process of evolution, written books on the subject, and shared research with each other. I wouldn’t be able to do it justice. However, I can recommend some truly excellent books (that I’ve read) and they do a pretty good job of explaining the process, even to a layman like me!

One of my favourites is the “The Selfish Gene” by Richard Dawkins (Maybe you’ve read it?). If you haven’t heard of the book then you’ve probably heard of the author. He’s a staunch atheist but his first book (The selfish Gene, first published in 1976) has nothing to do with religion – it’s just a piece of science writing but it’s incredibly readable. I really enjoyed it. Please tell me if you read it and what you think!

This is a typical non-answer that I get to my questions about naturalistic evolution. Why do I expect more? No one can explain how a unicellular common ancestor can give rise to the myriad of living and extinct species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, and fungi through a process of mutation, genetic recombination, genetic drift, natural selection, and reproductive isolation all without the intervention of a Higher Power. As far as I am concerned naturalistic evolution can do no better than I can by simply saying, "Allah created all life forms according to His Will."

[MustafaMc]

Its all "faith", not scientific fact or evidence.

I agree with your point that the evolution theory has a huge amount of faith in a science that does not adequately explain the origin of species. Predominantly how a destructive process, mutation, is the process by which favorable genetic variation is randomly "created".

The creation points to a Creator. I do not comprehend this Creator and Sustainer of the universe, but I accept the Quran as the last revelation of this Eternal Being. I accept Islam because the concept of the One God (Allah) and our relationship to him in Islam is simply elegant.

[Draco]

This is a typical non-answer that I get to my questions about naturalistic evolution. Why do I expect more? No one can explain how a unicellular common ancestor can give rise to the myriad of living and extinct species of plants, animals, insects, bacteria, and fungi through a process of mutation, genetic recombination, genetic drift, natural selection, and reproductive isolation all without the intervention of a Higher Power. As far as I am concerned naturalistic evolution can do no better than I can by simply saying, "Allah created all life forms according to His Will."

Hold on everyone. I could attempt my own explanation of evolution if you really want. It’s just other’s have done a more thorough job than I could ever do on a forum, hence why I recommended a book (and to say that Dawkins is not based on real science is quite ludicrous – I’m not even going to address that comment Md Mashud but if you really don’t like him then pick another author. I find it hard to believe you have read any of his work, at least not with an unbiased mind).

Evolution is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking MustafaMC. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about life evolving from very simple organisms. Maybe you can elaborate?

Remember evolution has had billions of years to produce what we see today. The changes are small and gradual for sure, and it’s difficult for us as humans to imagine the kind or changes that can occur on a geological timescale. We are not accustomed to thinking in these number of years.

Have you actually read the book or not?

[thirdwatch512]

I was a full throttle Christian young earth creationist just a few weeks ago.

Then I finally bought a book about evolution.. and now I could NEVER believe in creationism.. i am a "full throttle" evolutionist now lol.

but, that is not what this topic was riginally about.
--
i think that many muslims have studied other religions.. but, i do not think it is something encouraged. i mean you never really see anyone from any religion saying "hey, go read this other religious text!" why? because it has no significance for that religion. i mean why would a christian NEED to read a qu'ran, when to chrisitans it is no different then a harry potter fictional book?

of course, the bible says to test everything, and christians SHOULD read the qu'ran and other religious texts, following what the bible says. but, people don't.

i know many muslims who have read the bible, and have studied other religions. but obviously most don't.. i do not think it is really discouraged among muslims, but it is certainly not encouraged either.

now i do disagree with woodrow.. many priests are not becomming muslim. i mean i have heard of one priest and one pastor becomming muslim, and that is all in my entire life i have heard of. also, one thing i notice among MANY converts is that most that i seem to have heard of were atheist first, THEN converted.

i have met 3 muslims in particular who i talk to regularly online.
2 became atheist, and then later became muslim.
one left christianity, and was a deist, and then became a muslim.

so yeah. some muslims might not want others to read other religious texts. but i mean i do not think it is really discouraged at all. just not encouraged.

[NoName55]

Hold on Draco. We could attempt our own explanation of God and Islam if you really want. It’s just that God has done a more thorough job than we could ever do on a forum, hence why I recommend a book called Quraan(and to say that Quraan is not based on Divine Revelation is quite ludicrous – I’m not even going to address that idea Draco but if you really don’t like reading it pick another forum to impress with "prophet" Dawkins and his ridiculous books. I find it sad you have not read any of it, and came here with a biased mind).

Islam is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking Draco. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about God creating all life from very simple organisms to very complex ones. Maybe you can elaborate?

Remember God has had billions of years to produce what we see today. The changes are small and gradual for sure, and it’s difficult for us as humans to imagine the kind or changes that can occur on a geological timescale. We are not accustomed to thinking in these number of years.

Have you actually read the book (Quraan) or not?

[MustafaMc]

Evolution is not a subject that can be explained adequately in a few lines, especially the kind of explanation you seem to be seeking MustafaMC. I’m not certain what it is you find so hard to comprehend about life evolving from very simple organisms. Maybe you can elaborate?

I could, but I choose to drop my discussion of evolution in this thread "But why Islam?" and I let my last post stand as an answer to that question relevant to evolution.

Have you actually read the book or not?

No, I have not read the book.

Further discussion on evolution should be brought up in a different thread unless it relates to the original question.

[Woodrow]

?


now i do disagree with woodrow.. many priests are not becomming muslim. i mean i have heard of one priest and one pastor becomming muslim, and that is all in my entire life i have heard of. also, one thing i notice among MANY converts is that most that i seem to have heard of were atheist first, THEN converted.

simple misunderstand of each other. I intended for my statement to imply that most of the former Catholics were devout Catholics and many of them were at one time Priests or Seminarians. That does not imply anything about how many priests are reverting.

A similar statement would be to say: "Many Airline Pilots were former College students" does not mean "Many former college students are airline pilots."

[Woodrow]

[Md Mashud]

Then I finally bought a book about evolution.. and now I could NEVER believe in creationism.. i am a "full throttle" evolutionist now lol.

I can't believe 1 book could make you U-Turn, ive seen so many now and seen so many lectures/debates/texts, it never had an effect on me? What are you reading lol, it all seems the same stuff anyway.

[believer]

way back in the 70's... late 70's that is... I chose GENETIC engineering as my research topic... as a student in elementary - it gave me a more advanced understanding about Darwins theory of evolution... and the latest info I find from the Scientific discoveries or studies made was that... What drives Evolution to produce a myriad of diverse species... all having "ID" - 'intelligent design'... and Why Man was so unique ... like the human species or genum has been particularly picked to be so special... We are the only animals with a rational soul... who has the ability to talk... in different languages... yet we do have different races as well which makes us even more unique and distinct!... If there is no Intelligent or SUperior Power over all these chaotic harmony... we will only be a highly evolved monkey who do not posses the power to speak, write, read, rationalize - nor even debate and question the very existence and authority of a Supreme Powe which we cannot see... whom we obviously all know as GOD.

I used to think in an existentialistic manner... but after feeling sad for too long... I know I must continue seeking for knowledge. The Catholic Faith Book of Vatican 1 was my first inspiration as a child.. but only to be dissillusioned later on by the changes the Catholic church made. At any rate...

What do we loose by believing that there is a God? Nothing.... but everything to gain.... so ... nobody is forcing you to believe that there is a God. I won't care a bit if you don't...but - Just think about this... What if there was really a God... and when you died... your soul reaches the purgatory or whatever you may want to call it... and then find out there is really a God. What will you gain being an Atheist?...

I recommend you to read the Bible... OT and NT... cover to cover... understand it's context entirely... then - read the Noble Qur'an... you will be able to see the Big Picture afterwards. And while at it... read all the Scientific Journals alongside... No Problem!...

one way to test your belief... or faith or whatever is to subject it to fire... This is the fire. As Gold is tested in the acid. I did... and I am convinced.

don't take my word for it... just try reading it and find out for yourself.

May Allah guide you... (it's not too late to believe) ...

[believer]

simple misunderstand of each other. I intended for my statement to imply that most of the former Catholics were devout Catholics and many of them were at one time Priests or Seminarians. That does not imply anything about how many priests are reverting.

A similar statement would be to say: "Many Airline Pilots were former College students" does not mean "Many former college students are airline pilots."

I would like to say that... as a matter of fact... many priests from the Catholic Church has reverted to Islam... in fact some of them were even Bishops.... Google it - you will be surprised!... I know some and met some already here in Arabia.... and in fact one from UK was even teaching religion was even a scholar in the Vatican... after reading the Qur'an and learning Islam... decided to embrace Islam... but it wasn't that easy. Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

[MustafaMc]

Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

I agree. No person convinced me to become a Muslim. Like you said when I read the Quran, I felt as though God had opened my eyes for the first time. Today, I feel humbly honored that Allah chose me from among so many non-Muslims in USA to guide me to the Truth. What have I done to deserve such a tremendous blessing?

[Woodrow]

I would like to say that... as a matter of fact... many priests from the Catholic Church has reverted to Islam... in fact some of them were even Bishops.... Google it - you will be surprised!... I know some and met some already here in Arabia.... and in fact one from UK was even teaching religion was even a scholar in the Vatican... after reading the Qur'an and learning Islam... decided to embrace Islam... but it wasn't that easy. Islam is not inviting everyone to embrace it the way many other religion does... the call of Islam is a divine experience... and many who has experienced it will attest to it. Nothing is more sweeter than Islam... especially for one who has tasted nearly everything already.

:w:

I wouldn't be surprised. Quite a few of us reverts here were Catholics. I don't believe we have any former Priests, but at least several of us had been Seminarians at one time in our lives.

I do not know of a single revert that was asked to accept Islam from any person. It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."


I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

[Draco]

I think any religious debate with an atheist inevitably converges on a discussion about evolution and the probability of the existence of a deity - but Woodrow and MustafaMC are right – this was not a debate about the strength of evolution as a scientific theory.

I like the paraphrasing NoName55, that made me smile. I’ll answer the last part; have I read the Quran? No I must admit I haven’t read it in its entirety but I can justify my reasons for not doing so. In fact I suppose this is why I asked the question in the first place: But why Islam? Please allow me to indulge a little with the explanation.

As we are all aware, over the course of human history there have been literally hundreds, probably thousands, of belief systems that could be called a religion. I found a really interesting site that compares some of them:

http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

You can see a high level view of the fundamentals of each religion, approximately when they started, how popular each one is today etc.

I asked the question, “But why Islam?” because this is an Islamic forum, but the same question could have been posted on the forum of any of the respective religions. Perhaps you’re willing to concede that regardless of your religion of choice, each follower would be willing to put forth a pretty vehement argument as to why their particular religion is correct and why you should follow it. In fact, for the Muslims in this forum, why not go on a Christian forum and ask them why they choose to follow Christianity. See if you can convince them that the Quran is correct and the Bible is wrong. I’m willing to bet that most are as passionate about their belief and as convinced by the truth of the Bible as you are by the Quran. But why should they be so convinced?

Now the question I ask myself is how does anyone know which religion is in fact speaking the truth (if any)? They cannot all be right. Indeed are any of them right? If I lived in Asia at the time of 1500 B.C.E I might be inclined to think Hinduism is correct. If I lived in Greek times, I might be tempted to believe in the existence of Zeus, Hades and Apollo (this religion is of course now extinct). The two religions that dominate the world today are relative newcomers to the spiritual scene but maybe I’m inclined to go with Christianity since I grew up in the West and because it is the most popular religion at the moment and within the region.

So here we are in the 21st century and you as a Muslim say to someone like me, “Choose Islam, Islam is the only true faith”. Maybe you will go into the specifics of your faith and start telling me how wonderful it is and how right it feels. Maybe you’ll use rhetoric such as “I didn’t find my faith, my faith found me”. Maybe you’ll tell me about how it helped you when you were in a troublesome period of your life. Maybe you’ll point out the discrepancies in other religious beliefs. The list of personal reasons to believe is endless. However, if I take a step back and look at the bigger picture I’ll know that depending on the era we live in, geographic location, current popular consensus, political climate, or any other influencing factor, you could just as easily be telling me to believe not in Allah, but in Zeus, al-Aql al-Kulli, ECK, Krishna, Jehovah, Bolon or any one of a thousand gods that were held in high regard at one time or another.

I’m sure this point has been made to you before but it’s still worthwhile considering what was before Islam and what has come after it. This fact should at least start you asking the question: why is my faith so special in the context of all these others?

The atheist’s grumble is not with the finer points of any of the belief systems. How can anyone be expected to choose intelligently anyway?! The grumble is with the fundamental concept that most religions share; that there exists a supernatural, all-seeing, all-knowing, higher power – a God. Whether this God created the earth in 7 days or a billion days, whether it’s a he or a she or an It, whether it’s a merciful god or a vengeful one is completely irrelevant when you find the whole concept of a God highly improbable. Think for a moment about a mythical being that you don’t believe in yourself. If you don’t believe in the tooth fairy, why would you read a book that goes into the finer points about the life of the tooth fairy (unless it were just for amusement)?

When believer paraphrased one of my posts I believe he was attempting to liken atheism and religion, as if atheism was a belief system, the same as any other religion. On the surface this may seem valid but there is a fundamental difference. Atheism is NOT a belief system in exactly the same sense that science is NOT a belief system. A religion, like Islam, like Christianity, like Judaism requires ‘faith’; a belief in something without evidence and sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary. And just to avoid the inevitable retort, the Quran (or Bible or whatever) cannot be called evidence. You as Muslims may believe it is but as I’ve discussed at great length there are, and have been over the course of human history, many more people who would completely disregard your holy book and all its teachings.

That said, I would not be averse to picking up a copy of the Quran and reading it. After all, a book that has influenced over a billion people is surely worth reading at least once (same could be said for the Bible). How about I promise to do so if you promise to read a copy of ‘The Selfish Gene’ by Richard Dawkins – a book that hasn’t done badly itself (over a million copies sold and translated into more than 25 languages)?

Any takers?

[Draco]

I just wanted to comment on a few specific points in a separate post also:

I can't believe 1 book could make you U-Turn, ive seen so many now and seen so many lectures/debates/texts, it never had an effect on me? What are you reading lol, it all seems the same stuff anyway.

Hasn’t one book dictated your whole way of life Md Mashud?

What do we loose by believing that there is a God? Nothing.... but everything to gain.... so ... nobody is forcing you to believe that there is a God. I won't care a bit if you don't...but - Just think about this... What if there was really a God... and when you died... your soul reaches the purgatory or whatever you may want to call it... and then find out there is really a God. What will you gain being an Atheist?...

believer I don’t know what genetics class you took but if you’ve come to the conclusion of Intelligent Design then you must have failed the class miserably!

This point about believing should have been answered in my long post about other religions but I’ll make it explicit here. What if there really is a God and what if you as a Muslim have picked the wrong one? What if it’s not Allah waiting for you in Paradise but instead it’s Zeus or al-Aql al-Kulli or ECK or Krishna or Jehovah or Bolon or the Christian God? Perhaps the God would be angrier with you for believing in the wrong one than with me for believing in none. What is so important about belief anyway? If I’m wrong and I stand at the pearly gates of heaven and state that whilst I didn’t believe I was still a kind person, a generous person, I didn’t steal or kill or try to harm others – isn’t that better than just belief alone?

In any case, if that is your prime reason for believing in a God then the question “But why Islam?” is still relevant to you. You may as well be like our deist snakelegs who doesn’t have time for any specific religion but has nevertheless conjured up his own personal God. He can live his life according to his own moral code and when his day of judgement comes he can still say he believed!

<snip> It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."

I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

Yes but that doesn’t explain a lot to someone who doesn’t hold true the same axioms as you. A Christian or Jew could very well say the same about their God – why do you believe in Allah and not Yaweh or any other?

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

But I’m not sure a deist does depend on science when it comes to questions about the existence of God. I think a better word for ‘science’ is ‘evidence’. Faith does not require evidence. Science does. Therein lies the fundamental difference.

[Woodrow]

<snip> It seems to always be like you said: "...the call of Islam is a divine experience."

I believe for me to sum up the OP (But why Islam?). For myself I can say::

I believe in the existence of Allah(swt)

I believe Allah(swt) sent prophets and Muhammad(PBUH) was the final prophet.

Therefore the only logical choice for me as a deist is to accept Islam.

Yes but that doesn’t explain a lot to someone who doesn’t hold true the same axioms as you. A Christian or Jew could very well say the same about their God – why do you believe in Allah and not Yaweh or any other?

Moot argument when applying it in comparisons between the Abrahamic Religions. Jew, Christian, Sabian and Muslim all believe in the God(swt) of Abraham(PBUH). One God(swt) the same God(swt)

The original question is "But why Islam?" we have gotten off the topic and began debating Deist vs Atheist. That is a totally separate question and will never be answered satisfactorily.

A Deist depends on Faith and Science. An Atheist depends on science alone. Never shall the twain meet.

But I’m not sure a deist does depend on science when it comes to questions about the existence of God. I think a better word for ‘science’ is ‘evidence’. Faith does not require evidence. Science does. Therein lies the fundamental difference.

As a Muslim I find that faith does require evidence and we are encouraged to not accept things simply because somebody has told us to. Even here on this forum you will find Muslims asking questions and seeking verification from other sources as to validity. However, we do respect knowledge and will accept things from a scholar, until we can prove different.

The reason we consider the study of the Qur'an and Hadith as science and not philosophy is because the study is treated in an very analytical and critical method. Faith is a very important part of religion, but blind faith with out reason is not encouraged.

[جوري]

I am going to reply to this post in points, I don't have time to quote.

1-I don't think it is incumbent upon anyone to convince anyone else of the 'truth', one might question if by same token, you've had some luck converting people over to Atheism?

2-The concept of Monotheism has always existed, here is pic attachment of one pre-dating the bible in all its versions.. if people took the tree of life to mean the tree of Yggdrasil and got creative, well that is there own fault..
if you have a guide line to perform a Roux-en-Y via the transmesocolic approach and you decide the go about it via a posterior lumbar because you think it is better, then what can anyone do for you really other than shrug their shoulders? what is clear stands out from error.

Mesopotamian Eden predates Genesis

An example of a cylinder seal depicting a Garden of Eden story. A man and woman sitting under the seven branched Tree of Life. Note the snake on the right. Akkadian Cylinder Seal, 2330-2150 B.C.E.


3-Why is Islam so special compared to others, well I believe you have to meet people half way in order to establish a why. again, you can't discuss treatment for Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome, when you don't even know what it is. You can ridicule with the usual, It doesn't exist, I have never seen anyone with it, it doesn't affect me, there are no documented cases and go on living your life completely unaffected by it. There are many laws that govern your life, you probably don't give much thought to or believe in their existence. I am sure you can go on perfectly happy not knowing or even believing that there is such a thing as TPR governing your life-- yet the interplay between mean Arterial pressure, cardiac output and total peripheral resistance keeps your system in homeostasis and you alive... if one of them should fail acutely or chronically it would lead to eventual demise... Many people can go on ignoring them--- some might read up a little when stick with meds in the aspects where meds might be needed... some might go against medical advise and just call it bluff and then end up dead with their belief that no such formula can govern my body's homeostasis...

Everyone knows what they know and believe it--- it is fine for some it is beyond a reasonable doubt for others, they live and die not knowing or caring. Either way it is fine, so long as one doesn't infringe on the beliefs of others or makes them the focal point of mockery when they themselves by some other measure might be dwelling in the dark ages. Takes me back to the original point... you can't get into a debate about God when you don't even believe in him..


4- I am not sure why Atheists are fond of tooth fairies and spaghetti monsters? until they bring a debate to a level, can we then delve into why Christianity or why Islam etc-- so far they haven't and by they I mean (Atheists) as most scientists do in fact believe in God to a staggering degree. Many have spent a life time dedicating research to it..
such as with these two papers ..
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/q-bio/papers/0603/0603005.pdf

life is in many ways super natural.. the occurrence in a tiny cell are staggering and numerous. I don't want to delve into biochemical or physiological processes, I couldn't cover them all and I wouldn't want to..No atheist has given a good answer as to how or why it has come to assemble and continues to move in a positive direction. Any ungoverned system will be chaotic..yet even the death of our cells is programmed (apoptosis)-- any logical person will reflect and know, things don't just happen, or just appear... Does any Atheist think honestly of the colors espousing in the sky at the end of the day, all the best things in life that are entirely free to fill the senses, the simple act of breathing without having to think about it during sleep as to even ascertain whether or not God is benevolent or malevolent?...


5- I am not sure what the point is of who regards the Quran or disregards it. It is all inconsequential.. If you know you are headed for a trip to some far away country, you might want to pack a bag with provisions for the road and your destination... Some prefer to gamble and just see how they can improvise when they get there.. and that is certainly their prerogative. No one is holding a gun to their head-- we are certainly all travelers as evidenced by the fact that no one has been spared death!

6- Read two chapters by Dawkins--- I have concluded he is a dynamo of a hyperbole!
there are many get quick rich schemes and there is no better way to do it, then by a different form of mind control under the pretext of free thought.. So there you've just displaced and found your God in Dawkins..
kudos

Peace!

[Draco]

Moot argument when applying it in comparisons between the Abrahamic Religions. Jew, Christian, Sabian and Muslim all believe in the God(swt) of Abraham(PBUH). One God(swt) the same God(swt)

Ok, well pick a different God from a non-related religion. The point still applies.

As a Muslim I find that faith does require evidence and we are encouraged to not accept things simply because somebody has told us to. Even here on this forum you will find Muslims asking questions and seeking verification from other sources as to validity. However, we do respect knowledge and will accept things from a scholar, until we can prove different.

The reason we consider the study of the Qur'an and Hadith as science and not philosophy is because the study is treated in an very analytical and critical method. Faith is a very important part of religion, but blind faith with out reason is not encouraged.

Call it faith, call it blind faith - it's the same thing. Faith is belief that is not based on proof or evidence. And I don't agree that you are encouraged to look for evidence. According to Muslims the Quran is the word of Allah, so why should you not simply accept that as it is written?

[snakelegs]

maybe this thread should better have been called "why atheism"?
faith and science are 2 different systems - this does not make one superior and one inferior.
for that matter, since the deveopment of quantum physics, i think the dividing line between the 2 systems has become a bit blurred.

[Md Mashud]

Hasn’t one book dictated your whole way of life Md Mashud?

A bit cheeky :), I think beleiving one book as word of God and another as a scientists opinion on evolution is quite a huge leap. It doesn't help finding many flaws in evolutionist books, while I had never found a problem with the Quran.

[Woodrow]

Ok, well pick a different God from a non-related religion. The point still applies.

and the point being? That is sort of like me saying that some scientists believe in the big bang origin of matter and some believe in the constant state origing. both are often very adamant. Does that serve as evidence science does not exist?

Call it faith, call it blind faith - it's the same thing. Faith is belief that is not based on proof or evidence. And I don't agree that you are encouraged to look for evidence. According to Muslims the Quran is the word of Allah, so why should you not simply accept that as it is written?

Once I had verified to myself and to my satisfaction that the Qur'an is the Word of God(swt) there was no other choice than to accept it as it is written.

All Muslims have to verify to themselves that the Qur'an is the Word of Allah(swt). It is true that with some it may be so ingrained in their culture they have had little need to seek verification other than what they are told.

But, one thing to keep in mind nearly 90% of the world's Muslims come from non Arabic, non Muslim ancestry and from non Mid Eastern Cultures. The vast majority of the world's Muslims do not speak Arabic as a native language. People will do a lot of questioning when it comes to them having to learn a language other than their native tongue. The fact that we have to learn Arabic in order to fully understand Islam, is very much an incentive to Question.

If you had to learn Arabic to study Physics, would you do so without questioning why you need to learn Arabic. So it is with Islam.

Also keep in mind Islam has no ordained clergy and no central religious leaders. Masjids are very individual projects. the Imam of any Masjid is no different than any of the people attending the Masjid. It is not uncommon for the Imam to simply be the oldest person present. Each of us as an individual is responsible to learn what Islam is and to learn how to be Muslim. Our life is a life time search to learn to practice Islam to the best of our ability. It takes a lot of questioning and searching.

[Abdul Fattah]

Many of my Muslim friends have spoken of the scientific accuracy of the Qur'an and even it's predictive accuracy (given the time of it's writing). I always feel this is rather shaky ground for the Quran. I think if we are all honest, we realise that modern science is incredibly powerful and will always have the upper hand when it comes to explaining the world we live in.

Definitely. the Qur'an is not a science book. It's purpose is mainly to serve as guidance for the believers and as proof for Muhammed (peace be upon him) his prophethood. But, that doesn't change that some of the references to science are incredibly powerful.

I’ve read many posts where Islam (and other religions) attempt to take on science head on. The debates usually go round in circles with the religious either claiming scientific processes as the work of God or being forced to directly disagree with strong scientific theories.

That's odd. Were those posts on this forum, and all on the same topic or on different topics? So far the only thing I know of that seems incompatible with Islam would be evolution. But I see atheists and agnostics doubting evolution to. Furthermore I see muslims believing in evolution (albeit under the guise of ID) So I wouldn't see this as religion vs. science. On all other subjects Islam seems to be going hand in hand quite perfectly with science.

What fascinates me is how otherwise intelligent and rational people (as I presume most in this forum are) refuse to question the authenticity of the Quran in the light of such strong scientific evidence to the contrary.

There are several threads regarding this in the (temporarily closed) comparative religion section where I've been active from time to times but I have never encountered any scientific evidence that questions the authenticity of the Qur'an. No strong ones, and no weak ones. All I've seen so far are:
1. Misinterpretations due to limitation of translations
Which doesn't require further explanation, the description already says it all
2. Misunderstanding of the difference between miracles and science.
To explain that one a bit further:
According to Islam the physical laws are the habitual conduct of God. So science is the study of the habitual enforcement of law by God. According to Islam God sometimes choses to abandon habitual law and make miracles. To claim that a reference in the Qur'an to these miracles contradicts science is preposterous. The Qur'an never claimed that they happened under normal law of physics. So to claim that these miracles are contradicted by science makes about as much sense as checking a French text with an English spelling-check-program and then claiming that practically every word in it is "wrong".

[Abdul Fattah]

Oh, forgot to add, if you're interested in my personal story of "why Islam", my user page shows the story of my reversion to Islam (click the link in my signature)

[Amadeus85]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

[Woodrow]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

Dzien dobry Aaron,

Jak sie pan miewa? Czy Pan mowi po Polsku?

Even in Poland you will find some slanting of the teaching of Islam. The few Tatars that have returned to Poland after being Exile by the Russians will give a considerable different version of Christianity/Islam in Poland. For nearly 400 years Poland had a very large Muslim Population and even much of the early nobility were Muslim. But, the Crusaders from the Knights Templar used force to impose Christianity upon Poland. the education system of any country is very much influenced by the concept of history desired by the residents or the political elite. Bradbury's old book "Fahrenheit 451" is quite true in the statement that history is made by the present.

Here in the US because of seperation of Church and State very little about religion is taught in the Public schools.

Your statement is probably true for your location, but I believe that here in the US you will find that most Muslims have more knowledge of Christianity, than most Christians have of Islam. Than again many of us here are reverts and were Christians at one time.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;834424]

Dzien dobry Aaron,

Dzień dobry Woodrow.

Jak sie pan miewa? Czy Pan mowi po Polsku?

Mam się dobrze (im fine thnx). Tak mówie po polsku (Yes i speak polish):)

For nearly 400 years Poland had a very large Muslim Population and even much of the early nobility were Muslim

.

Do you have any source for that? In which period you mean. Nowadays Poland has about 25-30 thousands muslim population.5 thousands are Tatars, rest are foreign students, doctors, buisnessmen. And about 4-5 thousands converts.But here many of them back to Catholic Church after short time.

But, the Crusaders from the Knights Templar used force to impose Christianity upon Poland.

Im afraid that you are wrong. Poland embraced christianity in 966 A.D from the help of Chech king.It was prince Mieszko who married chech princess Dobrava and became christian. The Knights Templar, that you mention, came in the northern part of Poland in 1226 year , invited by Konrad Mazowiecki to fight with pagan Prus who often attacked the northern provinbce of Poland.

Here in the US because of seperation of Church and State very little about religion is taught in the Public schools.

Yes i know. Thats why im happy to live in catholic country.

Your statement is probably true for your location, but I believe that here in the US you will find that most Muslims have more knowledge of Christianity, than most Christians have of Islam. Than again many of us here are reverts and were Christians at one time.

Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

[Abdul Fattah]

I think that it is not full truth that westerners know about islam just little and muslims are experts about christianity and judaism. I dont know how it is in other countries, but in Poland we have religion lessons in primary school and highschool as well. And both in primary school and highschool we have lessons also about other (non catholic) faith. First about protestant denominations, about orthodox christianity.Then we learn about non christian religions, first judaism, then islam, hinduism and buddhism, sikhism etc. So average polish kid hears about islam in early age already. Also we learn about muslim faith and civilization during history lessons. We learn then about Muhammed, arab conquest and achievments.
On the other hand, i found some muslims, also on LI Islamic Forum, who have very low knowledge about christianity and judaism. Those people think for example that trinity is God The Father, Jesus and Mary.

Yes, here in Belgium we have that to. The problem is, the teachers themselves usually know little about these different faiths either! Just some stereotype and cliché views. And even if they do know a little more about it, the time spent on these different faiths is usually to small to "paint a good picture".

[Woodrow]

[QUOTE=Aaron85;834427]

Dzień dobry Woodrow.



Mam się dobrze (im fine thnx). Tak mówie po polsku (Yes i speak polish):)

.

Do you have any source for that? In which period you mean. Nowadays Poland has about 25-30 thousands muslim population.5 thousands are Tatars, rest are foreign students, doctors, buisnessmen. And about 4-5 thousands converts.But here many of them back to Catholic Church after short time.



Im afraid that you are wrong. Poland embraced christianity in 966 A.D from the help of Chech king.It was prince Mieszko who married chech princess Dobrava and became christian. The Knights Templar, that you mention, came in the northern part of Poland in 1226 year , invited by Konrad Mazowiecki to fight with pagan Prus who often attacked the northern provinbce of Poland.




Yes i know. Thats why im happy to live in catholic country.



Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american Muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

Dziekkuje for replying to my attempt at Polish. That is about my limit of the language.

I am roughly 50% Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tater) My family was from Vilnius and Konas. I do have some relatives in Poland from the Kossakowski side of the family although uncle Syzman managed to get himself hung in 1794 for trying to overthrow Kosciusko.

Needless to say the Tatar version of the history of Lithuania/Poland does differ from what you have been taught.

I found a few links of the Tatar version.

The rulers of Lithuania and Poland have always been tolerant of the Tatar community and its religion. In these lands the Tatars built mosques and freely practiced their religion. They were granted various rights and privileges; the Tatar aristocracy had the same status as the nobility of Lithuania and Poland. For centuries Lithuanian Tatars maintained the image of fearless and capable warriors; their main activity was warfare. During various periods the Tatar community found its place in the life and liberation struggles of the Lithuanian and Polish nations.

Source: http://alka.mch.mii.lt/visuomene/totoriai/trumpa.en.htm

In 14th century the first Tatar tribes settled in the lands of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Skilled warriors and great mercenaries, their settlement was promoted by the Grand Dukes of Lithuania, among them Gediminas, Algirdas and Kęstutis. The Tatars who settled in Lithuania, Ruthenia and modern-day eastern Poland were allowed to preserve their Sunni religion in exchange for military service. The initial settlements were mostly temporary and most of the Tatars returned to their native lands after their service expired. However, in the late 14th century Grand Duke Vytautas (named by the Tatars Wattad, that is defender of Muslims) and his brother King Władysław Jagiełło started to settle Tatars in the Polish-Lithuanian-Teutonic borderlands. The Lipka Tatars, as they are known, migrated from the lands of the Golden Horde and in large part served in the Polish-Lithuanian military. The largest of such groups to arrive to the area was a tribe of Tokhtamysh, who in 1397 rebelled against his former protector Tamerlane and sought asylum in the Grand Duchy. The Tatars under his command were all granted with szlachta status, a tradition that was preserved until the end of the Commonwealth in 18th century[2]. Light Tatar cavalry, used both as skirmishers and reconnaissance troops took part in many of the battles against the foreign armies in the 15th century and afterwards, including the battle of Grunwald in which the Tatars fought commanded by their leader, Jalal ad-Din khan.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Poland


Now to get back to the Knights Templar.

The Teutonic Knights Templar undertook their first crusade in Poland in 1325. These crusades to Poland were renewed in 1340, 1343, 1351, 1354, 1355, 1363, and 1369. They established eight main Knight Templar commanderies in Poland; and during the fourteenth century, dozens of towns and about 2000 villages were created in Prussia (present day Poland) by the Order. The Teutonic Knights also built an impressive fortress headquarters at Marienburg (Malbork), which is today one of the most popular tourist attractions in Poland. Lesser known but equally interesting traces of the Knights presence can still be seen through historic churches, castles and buildings in places like Lesnica, Chwarszczany, Lagow, Rurka, and Torun.

Source: http://polandpoland.com/teutonic_knights_templar.html

In other words Christianity was pushed onto Poland by force and conquest.

Yes maybe. BTW, there is thing that i want to ask you. About 30 % of american Muslims are afro americans. Do the belong to Nation Of Islam, or they are mainstream muslims?

Muslims do not consider NOI to be Muslim. This does make for a descrepancy in Statistics for the number of Muslims in the US. The US census department does count both Muslim and NOI as being Muslim. However, the Islamic Mosque figures are of Muslims alone and do not count NOI. The Mosques do not normally have any type of membership rolls so the actual number of Muslims in the USA is difficult to measure. It is believed to be between 6 and 12 million excluding NOI. a very large number of Afro-Americans are Muslim, although many who are called Muslim by outsiders are NOI. Most of the NOI will call themselves either Black Muslims or NOI and do not associate themselves with Muslims.


Now to return this thread back to Draco's original question: "But, why Islam"

My ancestors had converted to Christianity about 400 years age. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. It was while I was a seminarian to be a Priest that I began to question Christianity. A study of my own ancestry revealed how much Christianity was pushed upon my ancestors by force. That in part was the Reason I left Christianity over forty years ago. I reverted to Islam about 2 years ago as explained in early posts in this thread.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Woodrow;834451]

I am roughly 50% Lietuva Lipkas (Lithuanian Tater) My family was from Vilnius and Konas. I do have some relatives in Poland from the Kossakowski side of the family although uncle Syzman managed to get himself hung in 1794 for trying to overthrow Kosciusko.

Yes, those Tatars who live in Poland are very well assimilated. They fought in many polish uprisings against russian and german occupants. They are polish patriots, whose faith is islam.As i said , there are about 5 thousands of them now in Poland.

Needless to say the Tatar version of the history of Lithuania/Poland does differ from what you have been taught.

Mmm, as far as i know, those Tatars who are in Poland now, are the descendents of Tatars who used to attack southern borders of Poland since XIII century.

Now to get back to the Knights Templar.

In other words Christianity was pushed onto Poland by force and conquest.

As i said, Poland embraced christianity in 966 thanx to Chech king. It had nothing to do with Knights Templars. But i know what you mean, The Knight Templers were invited to northern part of Poland (Elbląg) to fight with pagan Pruss. The citizens of Prus (which werent part of Poland until the XV century-1466.) used to attack northern provinces of Poland, thats why Konrad Mazowiecki, polish prince invited Templars. And they fought with Pruss, who are not ethnicly Poles. Poles are Slavians and Pruss are Balts, like Estonians for example.And Templars didnt even pushed christianity on force on Pruss, because Pruss embraced christianity on their own will from Lithuanians in the late XIV century. This act made further being of Templars in Poland useless and made many conflicts withy Poles. One of the biggest fight took placed under village Grunvald in 1410 A.D.

Muslims do not consider NOI to be Muslim. This does make for a descrepancy in Statistics for the number of Muslims in the US. The US census department does count both Muslim and NOI as being Muslim. However, the Islamic Mosque figures are of Muslims alone and do not count NOI. The Mosques do not normally have any type of membership rolls so the actual number of Muslims in the USA is difficult to measure. It is believed to be between 6 and 12 million excluding NOI. a very large number of Afro-Americans are Muslim, although many who are called Muslim by outsiders are NOI. Most of the NOI will call themselves either Black Muslims or NOI and do not associate themselves with Muslims.

I see, so i wonder what is the number of black muslims in USA (without NOI).
I read somewhere that afroamericans make up 30 % of all muslims in USA. Among about 40 millions of Afroamericans , about 3 millions are muslims (or NOI).

[believer]

I think any religious debate with an atheist inevitably converges on a discussion about evolution and the probability of the existence of a deity - but Woodrow and MustafaMC are right – this was not a debate about the strength of evolution as a scientific theory.

I like the paraphrasing NoName55, that made me smile. I’ll answer the last part; have I read the Quran? No I must admit I haven’t read it in its entirety but I can justify my reasons for not doing so. In fact I suppose this is why I asked the question in the first place: But why Islam?

When believer paraphrased one of my posts I believe he was attempting to liken atheism and religion, as if atheism was a belief system, the same as any other religion. On the surface this may seem valid but there is a fundamental difference. Atheism is NOT a belief system in exactly the same sense that science is NOT a belief system. A religion, like Islam, like Christianity, like Judaism requires ‘faith’; a belief in something without evidence and sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary. And just to avoid the inevitable retort, the Quran (or Bible or whatever) cannot be called evidence. You as Muslims may believe it is but as I’ve discussed at great length there are, and have been over the course of human history, many more people who would completely disregard your holy book and all its teachings.

That said, I would not be averse to picking up a copy of the Quran and reading it. After all, a book that has influenced over a billion people is surely worth reading at least once (same could be said for the Bible). How about I promise to do so if you promise to read a copy of ‘The Selfish Gene’ by Richard Dawkins – a book that hasn’t done badly itself (over a million copies sold and translated into more than 25 languages)?

Any takers?

It's not a question of is it 'worhty' reading it or not?... you made it sound like... "I'm too sexy for my car". As a matter of fact... It is not the duty of Muslims to babysit non Muslims... If in case you will be reading the Qur'an... then - good for you! noone will benefit from it except you alone. If you don't - then it wouldn't really make a difference to the whole Muslim world.. I do hope you are not afraid of reading it... as I am not afraid of reading the book of richard dawkins 'Selfish Gene'.

As what I always say, if you think you have Gold in your hands... lets place it in vinegar.

Which reminds me of the Muslims in Philippines who are selling jewelries in the streets... this is an old Filipino Joke.... let me sidetrack for a while Ok.

here it goes... christian buys jewelry, then doubts the muslim seller... christian: "Is this Golden Jewelry Genuine?"... Muslim vendor says... "Of course it is... If you you don't believe then let's test it... here's a glass of Vinegar." christian dips it in the vinegar... and shortly... Jewelry turned Black.... christian stares at the muslim... Muslim looking at the vinegar...muslim responded..."hmmm, this vinegar is Genuine."

OK, ... anyway, the point is - If what you believe is in your conviction true. Then, there's no harm putting it to a test.

In fact, even God tests his slaves... all New Muslims are not spared from it. - There is nobody benefiting from anybody embracing Islam but the individual himself.

By the way, atheism according to the Qur'an (according to God) is a disease of the heart. This is why I look at atheism that way. I was once an atheist at one point in my life. I was once rationalizing almost everything in my life as if everything has a mathematical equivalent, formula and model. Although, everything is subject to physical laws... so what?... does it really matter anymore when your time on earth is counting down. In the end, all these time exerted into learning the unnecesary and the trivial will be useless.

An intelligent move is to be always prepared for the innevitable.... death.

If I die, I would die with a smile on my face. - this is why not - Islam? :statisfie

[Draco]

Hasn’t one book dictated your whole way of life Md Mashud?

A bit cheeky :), I think beleiving one book as word of God and another as a scientists opinion on evolution is quite a huge leap. It doesn't help finding many flaws in evolutionist books, while I had never found a problem with the Quran.

Yes but a scientist’s opinion for me will never be the absolute truth or ‘word of God’ as you put it. I happen to agree with Dawkins now but I’d be quite willing to change my opinion if another person came up with new evidence to contradict his. I have no loyalty to any one scientist. In addition, I like to read the work of other scientists who disagree with Dawkins and the work of those who share the same opinion. All this information I use to help me make a decision about what I think is correct.

Despite what others may say, this is NOT what Islam encourages. The Quran is the word of God and therefore it must be correct. Why should a Muslim go around seeking evidence?

Incidentally, this notion that the Quran is the direct word of God is a real problem for Muslims in my opinion. If you subscribe to Islam then you are also subscribing to this idea, which means you are forced to defend it or risk having you’re faith undermined. I’m sure all the Muslims in this debate have, at one time or another, been forced to defend the accuracy of the Quran, even create loopholes in order to validate some of the book’s more outlandish verses. Abdul Fattah did just that in his post:

According to Islam God sometimes chooses to abandon habitual law and make miracles. To claim that a reference in the Qur'an to these miracles contradicts science is preposterous. The Qur'an never claimed that they happened under normal law of physics. <snip>

But isn’t that all too convenient? When the Quran speaks of miracles for which we generally feel sceptical about, you declare that God exists outside the laws of nature, giving him the ultimate loophole (I personally could write a book as ‘accurate’ as the Quran if I was given the luxury of that scapegoat – couldn’t you?).

[Md Mashud]

Yes but a scientist’s opinion for me will never be the absolute truth or ‘word of God’ as you put it.

Hence why I was shocked 1 book changed your mind so greatly - based on scientists opinion on unfactual theories, rather things that COULD happen but not yet proved.

Despite what others may say, this is NOT what Islam encourages. The Quran is the word of God and therefore it must be correct. Why should a Muslim go around seeking evidence?

I don't know what you mean. Seeking evidence for what? You see, imaan is faith - faith increases/decreases. The more you understand the World around, the more you understand Islam, the more likely your faith is to go up. Just because muslims claim Quran is definatly God's word and prophet :saw: is the real messenger - doesnt mean there faith is 100&#37; clenched to it. Similarly, many people who believe in evolution may infact still have doubts, despite stating it. This is more true about these times, wheir imaan in people is not as strong as in the early days of Islam - mostly due to disunity in the Ummah and im sure their are other valid reasons for this - but it would be complex to describe them in a sociological manner.

Incidentally, this notion that the Quran is the direct word of God is a real problem for Muslims in my opinion. If you subscribe to Islam then you are also subscribing to this idea, which means you are forced to defend it or risk having you’re faith undermined

Well you see, you say you are forced. But, if you truly was a Muslim - you would have done the litmus test already - and believed the Quran is true. Their is no forcing after this. I don't know about this reference to Abdul Fattah - but I know he isn't a scholar.

Also, I have a problem with one of your things:

even create loopholes in order to validate some of the book’s more outlandish verses

I disagree. The meaning of the Quran is unchanged for 1400 years, what I mean is, what the verses meant the day it was revealed, means exactly the same today. There is no changing to suit modern needs. Rather, people mistranslate, or miscomprehend due to ambiguity of the text because of unskilled arabic. Did you know, to make tafsir of the Quran, you must be a Mujtahid - a qualification very hard to attain. If you see Quran's in museums over 1000 years old, you will notice, on the boarders of the pages, their is narration - the narration is to explain what the verses mean. People knew that, people cannot be relied in the future to keep the meaning same and may misguide themselves and others by trying to fork out meanings - thus it was actually preserved - somthing very few people know of - Hence why you hear people always accusing people of moulding the Quran to modern science - This couldn't be further from the truth.

But isn’t that all too convenient? When the Quran speaks of miracles for which we generally feel sceptical about, you declare that God exists outside the laws of nature, giving him the ultimate loophole (I personally could write a book as ‘accurate’ as the Quran if I was given the luxury of that scapegoat – couldn’t you?).

I do not agree, infact Im not sure what this is all about to be honest. You are skeptic that they did not happen? That is your opinion, but I do not see why the Quran has to make out miracles or even to explain it. Infact, you wonder, if someone was to lie and make a mallicious book - Their aim would be to convince people, adding miracles you can say does not sell to the people? Alot of the nature of the content in the Quran, makes me believe it was made by God, things like the mentioning of very early history - and even Phaeros body - and so many other things - you think wow, who on Earth had the time to write this? Surely not the illiterate man.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

But isn’t that all too convenient? When the Quran speaks of miracles for which we generally feel sceptical about, you declare that God exists outside the laws of nature, giving him the ultimate loophole (I personally could write a book as ‘accurate’ as the Quran if I was given the luxury of that scapegoat – couldn’t you?).

And that's the biggest challenge given to mankind who think otherwise about the Qur'an :D No one has yet succeeded, not even the people who spoke the language perfectly. You can try. Good luck.

[Abdul Fattah]

But isn’t that all too convenient? When the Quran speaks of miracles for which we generally feel sceptical about, you declare that God exists outside the laws of nature, giving him the ultimate loophole (I personally could write a book as ‘accurate’ as the Quran if I was given the luxury of that scapegoat – couldn’t you?).

I don't think it's a loophole, I think it's a limitation of science. Science builds on the assumption that everything always happens in the same way. You might see convience, I might refute you're biased. Basically it's just opinions. What matters is that your judging stuff by the wrong standards.

[Draco]

I do hope you are not afraid of reading it... as I am not afraid of reading the book of richard dawkins 'Selfish Gene'.

I suspect you are afraid of reading it. Let me know if you do read it though.

By the way, atheism according to the Qur'an (according to God) is a disease of the heart. This is why I look at atheism that way. I was once an atheist at one point in my life. I was once rationalizing almost everything in my life as if everything has a mathematical equivalent, formula and model. Although, everything is subject to physical laws... so what?... does it really matter anymore when your time on earth is counting down. In the end, all these time exerted into learning the unnecesary and the trivial will be useless.

An intelligent move is to be always prepared for the innevitable.... death.

If I die, I would die with a smile on my face. - this is why not - Islam? :statisfie

Death is inevitable that’s true. The sad thing for you is that you think there is something after it and you therefore live your life according to an ancient doctrine. Someone in this debate asked me earlier what have you got to lose by believing in God? What if you’re wrong when the day of judgement comes?

You say it’s intelligent to prepare for death, but let me turn that question on its head. What if you are wrong? What if you spend your one and only life living according to a set of rules laid down by a book someone wrote and there’s nothing after death? All the things your religion restricts you from experiencing, the time you spend adhering to rituals and praying, etc. All a waste of your one shot at living life in the way you see fit. I think you summed it up perfectly yourself:

"In the end, all these time exerted into learning the unnecesary and the trivial will be useless."

Oh well, it is not the duty of Atheists to baby-sit Muslims. I guess it won’t matter for you – you’ll die with a smile on your face and if there is no paradise you’ll never know any different anyway.

[Draco]

Hence why I was shocked 1 book changed your mind so greatly - based on scientists opinion on unfactual theories, rather things that COULD happen but not yet proved.

I think that was a different poster who said that one book changed his life. I just picked up on the Irony of a Muslim saying that. But anyhow, look who's basing his opinions on, as you put it, "unfactual theories". If the Quran is based on things that COULD happen, by which I presume you mean anything supernatural (miracles and such), then any fiction book that was ever written COULD happen. I see know reason to elevate the Quran above all other fiction books based on this logic.

Well you see, you say you are forced. But, if you truly was a Muslim - you would have done the litmus test already - and believed the Quran is true. Their is no forcing after this.

The litmus test huh. And what does this entail exactly? Could it be a leap of faith? I understand that believing what Quran says once you believe it’s the word of God comes naturally. It’s the believing part in the first place that I have a problem with - the litmus test.

I do not agree, infact Im not sure what this is all about to be honest. You are skeptic that they [miracles] did not happen? That is your opinion, but I do not see why the Quran has to make out miracles or even to explain it. Infact, you wonder, if someone was to lie and make a mallicious book - Their aim would be to convince people, adding miracles you can say does not sell to the people? <snip>

Well if I had to write a book about someone (or something) that people would look up to and follow without question, I would want this person (or thing) to be superhuman and all powerful. After all, who would follow unquestionably, or pray five times a day to, or lay down their life for a regular man? So on the contrary, adding miracles and acts of the supernatural is exactly what sells it to people. It’s sold it to you hasn’t it?

[Draco]

I don't think it's a loophole, I think it's a limitation of science. Science builds on the assumption that everything always happens in the same way. You might see convience, I might refute you're biased. Basically it's just opinions. What matters is that your judging stuff by the wrong standards.

There it is again! Another loophole created by Abdul Fattah. Of course, science can’t explain it so it must be a limitation of science!

It’s not just opinions, science has that extra thing called evidence and the ability to test a theory. I’m not for one minute suggesting that science has all the answers (yet), but when someone (or a book) starts claiming supernatural occurrences, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be a little sceptical. Do you?

Getting back to topic, the bible proclaims miracles too and I’m willing to bet you’ll find miracles occurring in many religious texts so I don’t see the Quran as being special in this respect.

[NoName55]

^^ hello mr. scientist, I made two posts adressed to you, but you seem to have sent me to Coventry, why is that?

come on dude pick on me

[believer]

I suspect you are afraid of reading it. Let me know if you do read it though.



Death is inevitable that’s true. The sad thing for you is that you think there is something after it and you therefore live your life according to an ancient doctrine. Someone in this debate asked me earlier what have you got to lose by believing in God? What if you’re wrong when the day of judgement comes?

You say it’s intelligent to prepare for death, but let me turn that question on its head. What if you are wrong? What if you spend your one and only life living according to a set of rules laid down by a book someone wrote and there’s nothing after death? All the things your religion restricts you from experiencing, the time you spend adhering to rituals and praying, etc. All a waste of your one shot at living life in the way you see fit. I think you summed it up perfectly yourself:

"In the end, all these time exerted into learning the unnecesary and the trivial will be useless."

Oh well, it is not the duty of Atheists to baby-sit Muslims. I guess it won’t matter for you – you’ll die with a smile on your face and if there is no paradise you’ll never know any different anyway.

Contrary to the impression you have on me... I have experienced this world like any western guy did. Fact is, I was once living like a Cassanova in my own little world... I was once involved in Motorsports Racing (as a career)... but I enjoyed the wine, song and women that is associated after the races. I have also lived as a businessman rendering industrial security services to my clients... but what I enjoyed in that life was the beer, the fun, and the exchange of intellectual discussions with the company of PHD's and MBA's and who's who in the exclusive circles in my own sphere of influences...

I find no enjoyment to that life anymore... and yes, I do considered that life trivial. I find no peace in it. Moreover, I don't believe in paradise or God simply because of blind faith. The proof and evidences are all overwhelming. If there was no divine experience that has occured into my life... I would still be in the company of my night friends... reading a book during daytime... but enjoying life to the fullest in the evening time until daybreak.

I used to enjoy James Bond Movies - simply because his philosophy fits with mine... but this is all fantasy.

Atheists cannot baby-sit Muslims... why? because Muslims are in Good Hands... we are the most secured people on earth. So it is actually incorrect to say "It is not the duty of Atheists to Baby sit Muslims." If there's anyone who needs help here - it's only those who are outside the sphere of Islam.

Performing the rituals at first was really a great burden... but when you do it for the right reasons... it becomes second nature. Becoming a Muslim is easy... but unless you have underwent a divine experience and unless you will sincerely ask for Divine Guidance and sincerely realise How Sinful you are... You can never really see Islam the way we Believers do.

No matter how much rethorics we put here... I can never change what is in your hear and your mind... Satan works with men by whispering ideas in theri minds... but God works with our hearts. When your Heart has been touched... then your mind shall follow.

My job as well as any other Muslims job is only to convey the message and the warning. - I have done my part... the rest is up to the Higher... make it Highest Power which governs all of us. Including you.

I am not going to smile when I die because I have experienced life more than anybody I have ever encountered in my life... I will smile because I have repented because I have been doing evil in my ignorance and I realized it was also the cause of my unhapiness... and I will smile because I have made my slate cleaner now and I intend to keep it that way... of course, with the Help and guidance of the Highest Power... God (Allah SWT).

The rituals by the way is not the object... it merely serves as one of the pillars to keep the believers agree to something. A way of organizing humanity without the need of a heirarchichal leader. where can you ever find an assembly of people worshipping - so organized and nobody is implementing crowd control or having even 1 pastor or priest with a megaphone or microphone shouting at them to stay put and stay in line or keep quiet. there's no church in the world that can do this... 5 times a day.

think about it... reflect on it.

[MustafaMc]

Death is inevitable that’s true. The sad thing for you is that you think there is something after it and you therefore live your life according to an ancient doctrine.

You hit the nail on the head, so to speak, for why I chose Islam.

Someone in this debate asked me earlier what have you got to lose by believing in God? What if you’re wrong when the day of judgement comes?

You say it’s intelligent to prepare for death, but let me turn that question on its head. What if you are wrong? What if you spend your one and only life living according to a set of rules laid down by a book someone wrote and there’s nothing after death? All the things your religion restricts you from experiencing, the time you spend adhering to rituals and praying, etc.

It is largely a matter of faith to believe in Allah, the Messengers of Allah, the revealed Books of Allah, the Angels, the Resurrection of the dead with Judgement Day, and the Divine Decree. In my opinion we have no scientific evidence that any of these are true - yet we Muslims believe in them all. We believe that there is a Heaven and a Hell and we are willing to avoid the things that you see we are deprived of experiencing (murder, stealing, adultery, fornication, drinking alcohol, eating pork, gambling, etc) and we sacrifice our time (prayer), money (zakat and sadaqa) and consuming food (fast) for the sole purpose of pleasing the unseen God (Allah) in order to avoid Hell and to gain Heaven. You see, we place no value upon the things that we have been commanded to avoid and we don't see our worship of Allah as a burden, but rather as a means for putting our lives in reference to the "big picture". When we pray, we acknowledge that there is a Being greater than we are and we gain a sense of humility before Him. When we fast, we realize that life is more than just eating, drinking and having marital relations as we voluntarily deprive our bodies of these carnal pleasures. When we give charity, we gain a sense of empathy for people who are less fortunatethan we are.

All a waste of your one shot at living life in the way you see fit. I think you summed it up perfectly yourself:

"In the end, all these time exerted into learning the unnecesary and the trivial will be useless."

For us the risk of Hell is too great to chance. We both are placing bets with how we live our lives.

I place my nickel bet that there is a Hereafter and live my life accordingly. If there is no Hereafter, I loose only the experience of "bad" things listed above and the time, money, etc spent in worship. If there is a Hereafter, then I have the hope to avoid Hell and gain Paradise.

You place your million dollar bet that there is no Hereafter and live your life accordingly. If there is a Hereafter, then you have no hope to avoid Hell. If there is no Hereafter, you gain only the experience of "bad" things listed above and the time, money, etc that you would have spent in worship.

I am comfortable with my "bet" are you?

[Keltoi]

From a completely non-emotional and non-spiritual standpoint, I think Glo and a few others are probably closer to the answer "why Islam?." Some people feel more comfortable with a more rigid set of religious guidelines and ritual. Protestant Christians are more about self-monitoring and seeking a personal relationship with Christ, with very little in the way of ritual. In general, it is about finding a religion that one feels comfortable with and a religion one feels is helping them grow spiritually.

One can't really expect a Muslim to give a satisfactory answer to an athiest as to why they chose Islam. Or any other faith for that matter. If one doesn't have the point of view of a believer, it is almost impossible for them to understand the rationale behind that kind of choice.

[Woodrow]

From a completely non-emotional and non-spiritual standpoint, I think Glo and a few others are probably closer to the answer "why Islam?." Some people feel more comfortable with a more rigid set of religious guidelines and ritual. Protestant Christians are more about self-monitoring and seeking a personal relationship with Christ, with very little in the way of ritual. In general, it is about finding a religion that one feels comfortable with and a religion one feels is helping them grow spiritually.

One can't really expect a Muslim to give a satisfactory answer to an athiest as to why they chose Islam. Or any other faith for that matter. If one doesn't have the point of view of a believer, it is almost impossible for them to understand the rationale behind that kind of choice.

Excellent post. I agree

It is impossible for any of us Muslim, Christian, Jew, etc to give an acceptable answer to an atheist. We are discussing totally different things and neither of us is capable of fully understanding the rationale of the other.

[NYCmuslim]

Believing in God and acting in according to the ways He prescribes does involve our God given and natural sense of faith, which the atheists here seems to be suppressing or depriving themselves of. Unless these people get in touch with their own spirits and feel that they have a purpose in life, they will not get an answer to the question of "Why Islam?" I don't think any human being can give you a concrete, 100% answer, without mentioning our Creator.

I like what MustafaMc said. The atheists here are taking a dangerous risk by not believing in the Hereafter. I think they should all think deep deep inside their souls and find their sense of faith, which is natural for ALL human beings to have. You may not have to immediately believe in God, but you have to understand that everything around you is rooted to a single "something" and slowly you will realize who that "something" is. That it is Allah.

Peace be unto you all.

[tarek29]

Once upon a time the King Farouk of Egypt invited three religious people head of three religions:

One Jew
One Christian
One Muslim

And he asked them so that each one tell him why he think that follower of his religion will go to Heaven and not others!

The Jew said I will answer last
The Christians said let the Muslim Sheikh begin

So the Muslim sheikh begin and said:

If Judaism is right then we Muslims will enter Heaven because we believe in Moses and commandments written in Torah!

If Christianity is right then we will enter the heaven because we believe in Jesus (pbuh) and his Miracles and the God he called for in the bible, same like his words in the bible!

If Muslims right, then Not Jews or Christians will go to heaven!

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace

[Draco]

Death is inevitable that’s true. The sad thing for you is that you think there is something after it and you therefore live your life according to an ancient doctrine.

You hit the nail on the head, so to speak, for why I chose Islam.

How is that a good reason for choosing Islam over any other religion that has the concept of an afterlife?

It is largely a matter of faith to believe in Allah…

In my opinion we have no scientific evidence that any of these are true - yet we Muslims believe in them all.

It’s revealing how there is no consistency of opinion between Muslims when it comes to this. Some say the evidence is strong, you say there is none. I agree entirely with your opinion MustafaMc. It’s entirely a matter of faith because the evidence (if there is any at all) is incredibly weak.

We believe that there is a Heaven and a Hell and we are willing to avoid the things that you see we are deprived of experiencing (murder, stealing, adultery, fornication, drinking alcohol, eating pork, gambling, etc) and we sacrifice our time (prayer), money (zakat and sadaqa) and consuming food (fast) for the sole purpose of pleasing the unseen God (Allah) in order to avoid Hell and to gain Heaven.

Being an atheist does not mean you necessarily have to indulge in murder, stealing, adultery or any of the things you mention. I’m an atheist and I don’t murder or steal. It’s been mentioned before in this debate by Woodrow but it’s worth saying again that just because an atheist is not bound by religious mandate, does not mean that we are without principles or a sense of write and wrong.

You see, we place no value upon the things that we have been commanded to avoid and we don't see our worship of Allah as a burden, but rather as a means for putting our lives in reference to the "big picture". When we pray, we acknowledge that there is a Being greater than we are and we gain a sense of humility before Him. When we fast, we realize that life is more than just eating, drinking and having marital relations as we voluntarily deprive our bodies of these carnal pleasures. When we give charity, we gain a sense of empathy for people who are less fortunate than we are.

Again, as an atheist I can choose to abstain from any of the carnal pleasures you describe, and I don’t need to believe in a god to do it either. I don’t mind admitting that from time to time I drink alcohol, eat unhealthy foods, gamble and do many things that you as an individual or your religion as a whole may find abhorrent. Yet I often make the decision to abstain from these things for a period of time (say a month) in an attempt to ‘detox’. Maybe this period is somewhat similar to your Ramadan. The point is I don’t need the rigidity of a religion to control how and when I do things or influence the choices I make. But that’s my preference and I can fully understand that some people may need that kind of structure. As Keltoi said:

…Some people feel more comfortable with a more rigid set of religious guidelines and ritual.

There are a lot of emotive reasons for being religious and the fact that the structure and rituals benefit your life does not make the claims of a god and an afterlife true. Praying five times a day may feel natural to you, it may not feel like an inconvenience to you, it probably makes you feel good about yourself and maybe you feel it adds discipline to your life. Whatever effect, positive or otherwise, a ritual like praying has on your life, it has absolutely no affect whatsoever on whether there is anyone listening to your prayers. I think it’s a common thing for people to confuse what makes them feel good and what is actually true.

For us the risk of Hell is too great to chance. We both are placing bets with how we live our lives.

I place my nickel bet that there is a Hereafter and live my life accordingly. If there is no Hereafter, I loose only the experience of "bad" things listed above and the time, money, etc spent in worship. If there is a Hereafter, then I have the hope to avoid Hell and gain Paradise.

You place your million dollar bet that there is no Hereafter and live your life accordingly. If there is a Hereafter, then you have no hope to avoid Hell. If there is no Hereafter, you gain only the experience of "bad" things listed above and the time, money, etc that you would have spent in worship.

I am comfortable with my "bet" are you?

I don’t see how an atheist is ‘betting’ on anything. I’m going to just paste what I said in a previous post…

“This point about believing should have been answered in my long post about other religions but I’ll make it explicit here. What if there really is a God and what if you as a Muslim have picked the wrong one? What if it’s not Allah waiting for you in Paradise but instead it’s Zeus or al-Aql al-Kulli or ECK or Krishna or Jehovah or Bolon or the Christian God? Perhaps the God would be angrier with you for believing in the wrong one than with me for believing in none. What is so important about belief anyway? If I’m wrong and I stand at the pearly gates of heaven and state that whilst I didn’t believe I was still a kind person, a generous person, I didn’t steal or kill or try to harm others – isn’t that better than just belief alone?”

[Md Mashud]

To see why should you use Islam, you have to research on religious history - and judge it on this.

[sudais1]

Because all the other faiths has flaws and Islam has none. There are astronomical amounts of Bible and If man didnt change it then we would all be following Christianty. There is no true bible. Everybody publishes a bible and says its from God. Jimmy Sawagart published his own bible. Thats just pathetic.

I need no knowledge to know that Judaism is wrong. The Torah has been corrupted and Judaism is for Jews born Jews and not for humanity. Thats wrong.

Islam has that same book and the same language. Every muslim sect unlike christianity have the same Quran. We only differ on teachings mostly on whos fit to lead the Ummah. The Bible is written in an odd way. Like it all just conversations. But if you read the Quran you can see God is Talking to YOU personally. The Quran has great science within and never contradicts itself. It has no grammatical mistakes and nothing. those websites who post mistakes no nothing. True Arabic was taken from Quran. There were many dialects so they came to Quran to find a common language and dialect because it was so high in its standards. The Quran teaches me and warns me. The Quran is a guide and tells us how to live. The Quran is memorized and sounds beautiful and soothing when read properly. No other book can ever be memorized. Go tell your preists and rabbai's to memorize there books. This is a miracle of Allah. The Quran is so comforting when read with the rules of beautification. Trinity is not once in the Bible but its in the Quran. Amazing. The concept of Trinity alone makes no sense and this leads be to believe that Islam is true. Even if you say Water can be sold, liquid and gas they are in different states and have different chemical formulas. They can't all be merged into one. Thats False. Islam teaches be to be pious and good and it proves to that it's true. Bring me a book like the Quran and bring forth your idols and companions to help you Allah tells us. Bring forth a Verse like the Quran. anyone can make a bible and you can see that by looking at the amount of Bibles there are. The Bible is changed to meet the needs of man and Man changes it so it always suits his lifystyle. Allah sent us the true book and weather we like it or not we must follow it because it gives us signs of its truthfullness. The Bible has become a buisness and cannot be trusted. One man has King James another one have NEW International VERSION. What is "NEW....VERSION"? Why is there a need for so many bibles. I don't need to even read about Christianty because you know its been changed by just looking at the amount of Bibles there are. which one is correct. There are thousands of contradictions. The Quran is perfect and can't be put on the same level as the Bible because the Bible is being changed every single day. The Bible is not even in Aramaic anymore. I have suffienct knowledge to know that Islam is true. IF anyone can convince me that Islam is not true then I would follow it anyways because It teaches us to be pious and live a certain life style. It teaches how to deal with people in buisness, religion, and daily life. It shows what is healthy to eat and what is not. Simple Islam is a way of life and a good one indeed.

Peace

[sudais1]

MustafaMC i ask to look at the evidence and sciences in the Quran before saying we just have faith. We have proof and evidence. You have no Yakeen and Iman for saying we have weak evidence. Speak for your self and not Islam because you have clearly not read the Quran and your polluting other peoples mind in telling them Islam is based on faith. if Islam was based on simply faith alone then there is no point in following it. Allah given us great signs and the Prophet himself told us of manny events which have past. He told us the Arabs would contruct tall buildings, That there come a time when the world would fight and a man from the Germans would become the scoruge of the world and he would seek domination. That The Jews would gather on the west of the Joran river ( where Isreal is). He told us that news would spread from one place to another and everyone would hear it in there own lanuage. (tv and sattitlite) The Quran tells us about the formation of the human sperm in the womb and how salt water and fresh water never combine. We have proof and if you can show me where the Bible ever gives proofs like this then I will surrender my religion. What more proof do you need?

[Chuck]

You say it’s intelligent to prepare for death, but let me turn that question on its head. What if you are wrong? What if you spend your one and only life living according to a set of rules laid down by a book someone wrote and there’s nothing after death? All the things your religion restricts you from experiencing, the time you spend adhering to rituals and praying, etc. All a waste of your one shot at living life in the way you see fit.

What waste of one shot at living life?

These rules, restrictions, and regulations are not much. They looked difficult from outside when I was coming to Islam but not after when I started to practice them.

Contact prayers - I spent more time in gym and workout is much harder, so I came to realize that spending 3 to 5 mins for each contact prayer is not really difficult, I don't even get a sweat :giggling:, it is all psychological.

Sex - I've sex... with my wife.

Diet Restrictions - They are not that much either, most of the edible food items in the world are halal. I was in sports (wrestling and football) so I'm used to dietary restrictions anyway... keeps me healthy.

Standards of living - Islam has nothing against it, I'm living with good standards of living, and my zakah and other charity also helps others too with their living.

Even without Islam my lifestyle won't change much except contact prayers, life can't be without rules and regulations.

Over all it is a good deal.

But this is not entirely true reflection of my conviction, because I'm not gonna leave Islam (inshAllah) if things become unfavorable like if I come to live under a regime that is hostile to muslims and Islam like former USSR. Nonetheless, overall I don't see it as a waste of life esp. with the consideration of afterlife.

And purchase not a small gain at the cost of Allahs Covenant. Verily! What is with Allah is better for you if you did but know. (16:95)

'O children of Adam! Wear your beautiful apparel at every time and place of prayer Eat and drink but waste not by excess, for Allah loves not wasters. Say: 'who has forbidden the beautiful gifts of Allah which He has produced for His servants and the things clean and pure which He has provided for sustenance' (7:30-301)

Allah wants us to enjoy ourselves not only in the Hereafter but also in this world. Allah tells us in the Quran to pray for both 'the good in this world and the good in the Hereafter' (2:201).

'We have made you a nation justly balanced' (2:143)

Here is an article related to this topic: http://www.al-islamforall.org/Misc/Islam.pdf

Sometimes rules and regulations look difficult but they make life easier.

PS: I'm very busy these days so I may not reply for a long a time.

[Isambard]

Id say same reason why you have so many born-again christians. Its a very simple mechanical formula. Hell, even more simply then christianity as there is no works vs. faith debate.

That in itself can be a very alluring carrot.

[MustafaMc]

MustafaMC i ask to look at the evidence and sciences in the Quran before saying we just have faith.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to quote where you believe that I was wrong in my post. If you recall the hadith where the Angel Jibrael questioned Prophet Muhammad (saaws) about faith, I believe you will find that it is consistent with my post.

It is largely a matter of faith to believe in Allah, the Messengers of Allah, the revealed Books of Allah, the Angels, the Resurrection of the dead with Judgement Day, and the Divine Decree. In my opinion we have no scientific evidence that any of these are true - yet we Muslims believe in them all.

These are in fact the core articles of FAITH in Islam.

[Muslim Woman]

:sl:

........You place your million dollar bet that there is no Hereafter and live your life accordingly. If there is a Hereafter, then you have no hope to avoid Hell. If there is no Hereafter, you gain only the experience of "bad" things listed above and the time, money, etc that you would have spent in worship.

I am comfortable with my "bet" are you?

MashaAllah, very good post bro.

Atheist, be careful. If no hereafter , no fear at all ….but if there is eternal fire , sinners will beg for death of which they are afraid of now….but no luck then :(


There are no different different gods that Muslims will find out ---oh no , we worshipped the wrong one. Allah is the Arabic word for God Almighty---as there is only one God …no chance of any mistake :)

Pl. read Quran …hopefully u will understand that Islam is the Truth.


Verses we need for this life & hereafter



To those who reject Our Signs, and treat them with arrogance,

no opening will there be for them of the Gates of Paradise,

nor will they enter Paradise until the camel can pass through the eye of a needle:

Such is Our Reward for those who sin



The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 7, Verse 40




Verily, they see it [the Day of Judgement] as far distant,

but We see it as [very] near.


The Day that the sky will be like molten brass, and the mountains will be like wool,

and no friend will ask after a friend, though they may be put in sight of each other

The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 70, Verses 6-11.

[MustafaMc]

Allah given us great signs and the Prophet himself told us of manny events which have past. He told us the Arabs would contruct tall buildings, That there come a time when the world would fight and a man from the Germans would become the scoruge of the world and he would seek domination. That The Jews would gather on the west of the Joran river ( where Isreal is). He told us that news would spread from one place to another and everyone would hear it in there own lanuage. (tv and sattitlite) The Quran tells us about the formation of the human sperm in the womb and how salt water and fresh water never combine. We have proof and if you can show me where the Bible ever gives proofs like this then I will surrender my religion. What more proof do you need?

To be honest with you, I don't need for any of these prophecies and pre-science scientific knowledge to be true for me to believe that the Quran is the Word of Allah. I accept it on my faith which you so harshly questioned above. Oh yeah, and you forgot to mention the ayat where the Quran predicts that people will travel by means unkown to Arabs of Prophet Muhammad's (saaws) time. I accept all of these as true, but my faith is not dependent on it.

As an analogy, a Christian may believe that the Shroud of Turin is the actual burial cloth of Jesus (as) that has the literal imprint of Jesus' (as) body on it from the resurrection from the dead. I am sure that this very Christian does not depend upon this shroud for his faith in Jesus' resurrection.

[sudais1]

If you want to base everything on Faith then thats you. but anyone could have strong faith even if it's a goat.

[Keltoi]

If you want to base everything on Faith then thats you. but anyone could have strong faith even if it's a goat.

That is sort of a strange statement to me. Anybody could have strong faith even if it's a goat? Perhaps Islam is different, but in Christianity it is faith that leads to salvation, not "proving" that Moses parted the Red Sea, for instance. I understand you believe there is evidence to support your faith, but it is still "evidence" to support something you accept by faith...and guess what, there is nothing wrong with that. That is sort of the point right?