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maroon1
09-21-2007, 09:36 PM
Sura 7:54

ربكم الله الذي خلق السماوات والارض في سته ايام ثم استوي علي العرش يغشي الليل النهار يطلبه حثيثا والشمس والقمر والنجوم مسخرات بامره الا له الخلق والامر تبارك الله رب العالمين


Translation

Your lord is allah, who, in six days created the heavens and the earth, and then willed to the throne. he throws the veil of night over the day. swiftly they follow one another. the sun, the moon, and the stars are compelled to his order. his is the creation, his is the command. blessed is allah, the lord of the worlds.


This verse says that the heavens and the earth (Universe) was created in Six days. It seems that this verse contradicts with modern Science and Big Bang theory
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Md Mashud
09-21-2007, 10:10 PM
It seems your interpretation contradicts that of previous Mujtahids - thats all I see :skeleton:

To, read the Quran and make statements about it without being qualified - you will be mislead. This is a widespread problem when it comes to hadith - people just read hadiths and think they know what it means.

Hope that helps.
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wilberhum
09-21-2007, 10:20 PM
maroon,
Quran or Bible, I think few theologians believe that a “Day” is describing a 24 hour period.
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Md Mashud
09-21-2007, 10:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
maroon,
Quran or Bible, I think few theologians believe that a “Day” is describing a 24 hour period.
I do believe some christians do really state 6000 years old is the actual age of Universe and do not state this to be a mistranslation or an ambiguity - in real time - from what Ive read anyway.

Also, it is hard to define what it means by create :) - is this the initiation, the command or catalyst for the progression?
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bewildred
09-21-2007, 10:28 PM
You know what was Einstein's answer when asked about the real "length" of a minute??? "Depends on which side of the bathroom you are".

More seriously, even the time ratios we usually use i.e: seconds, minutes, hours.... are nothing but a commonly agreed upon ratios invented by "humans".

One must bear in mind Allah's miraculous ways that are way above our humble understanding.

Bewildred S.
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wilberhum
09-21-2007, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Md Mashud
I do believe some christians do really state 6000 years old is the actual age of Universe and do not state this to be a mistranslation or an ambiguity - in real time - from what Ive read anyway.

Also, it is hard to define what it means by create :) - is this the initiation, the command or catalyst for the progression?
My key word is "few".

I have been saying for a long time,
"There is absoutly no limit on what people will believe".
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Malaikah
09-22-2007, 02:23 AM
:sl:

As far as I know, the world translated here as days can also mean an unspecified time period... or something like that?
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maroon1
09-22-2007, 09:20 AM
LOL

It seems that Muslims scholars like to adapt the interpretation of Quran with Modern science

format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
As far as I know, the world translated here as days can also mean an unspecified time period... or something like that?

God created it in six unspecified time period ?!

If we assume that the word "Ayyam" means unspecified time period, then why there is a number six before the word Ayyam ? There is no need to say six because the period is unspecified, right ?
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aamirsaab
09-22-2007, 04:04 PM
:sl:
I will look into this today.
Reply

Trumble
09-22-2007, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
God created it in six unspecified time period ?!

If we assume that the word "Ayyam" means unspecified time period, then why there is a number six before the word Ayyam ? There is no need to say six because the period is unspecified, right ?
Depends how hung up you are on the word 'period'. If you swap that for 'stages', i.e God created the world in six different stages which - assuming they were consecutive - still makes sense. Needs an Arabic scholar to answer this. It seems unlikely to me that a word would share those two meanings unless that 'interpretation' was convenient. Might be wrong, though.
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aamirsaab
09-22-2007, 04:38 PM
:sl:
Alrighty, prepare for a cyber injection of sheer awesomness

Your lord is allah, who, in six days created the heavens and the earth, and then willed to the throne. he throws the veil of night over the day. swiftly they follow one another. the sun, the moon, and the stars are compelled to his order. his is the creation, his is the command. blessed is allah, the lord of the worlds.
In a later Surah [XXII. 47], we are told a Day in the sight of God is like a thousand years of our reckoning. In another surah [LXX. 4], this is compared to 50,000 of our years.

[I used the Quranic translation by A. Yusuf Ali]
Reply

Md Mashud
09-22-2007, 04:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by maroon1
LOL

It seems that Muslims scholars like to adapt the interpretation of Quran with Modern science




God created it in six unspecified time period ?!

If we assume that the word "Ayyam" means unspecified time period, then why there is a number six before the word Ayyam ? There is no need to say six because the period is unspecified, right ?

Why can't it mean 6 periods? With each period not restricted to the human 24 hour model? You do know 1 day is 24 hours on Earth alone which is only for humans?

Don't make such insulting comments like muslims have adapted it to modern sciences. If you look at tafsir from the early days of Islam - It never meant any different than today. Its people who are not mujtahids, who have no idea what tafsir is, who go read it and just assume, as you have.
Reply

جوري
09-22-2007, 04:42 PM
Speed of Light: Surprise!


Before the 17th century, scientists believed that there was no such thing as the "speed of light". They thought that light could travel any distance in no time at all. Later, several attempts were made to measure that speed. Today, according to the US National Bureau of Standards, the speed of light in vacuum (outside matter and gravitational fields) is = 299792.4574 +/- 0.0011 km/s. According to the British National Physical Laboratory, the speed of light = 299792.4590 +/- 0.0008 km/s (making an average with the US standard = 299792.458 km/s). But 1400 years ago, the speed of light in vacuum was already known to be 299792.5 Km/s. It is stated in the Koran (Quran, the book of Islam) that light travels in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years. And since velocity = distance / time, a simple calculation reveals the speed of light in vacuum to be 299792.5 Km/s:
-Speed of Light- -Relativity in Islam-

Moslems (Muslims) believe that angels are low mass creatures, and that God created them originally from light. They move at any speed from zero up to the speed of light. It is the angels who carry out things for God. Angels take their orders from a Preserved Tablet somewhere in outer space near Earth, and not form God's Throne. They commute to and from this Preserved Tablet to get their orders from God. In the following verse, the Quran is describing how angels travel when they commute to and from this Tablet. And the speed at which they commute to and from this Tablet turned out to be the known speed of light:

[Quran 32.5] (Allah) Rules the cosmic affair from the heavens to the Earth. Then this affair travels to Him a distance in one day, at a measure of one thousand years of what you count.

It is the angels who carryout this 'cosmic affair'. Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Obviously they counted lunar years (see Arabic wording at footnote [1]). So Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 lunar orbits (1000 years x 12 orbits/year).

We can simply convert both distances and associated times to velocities and then compare them:

Distance = Velocity x Time Þ Velocity = Distance / Time

Therefore, we can calculate the velocity of those angels and then compare it to the known speed of light.

Time:
This table below shows the lunar month and the terrestrial day in both sidereal system (relative to the stars) and synodic (relative to the sun):

Period
Synodic (relative to sun)
Sidereal (relative to the stars)

Terrestrial day t
24 hours = 86400 sec
23 h 56 min 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906 sec

Lunar Month T
29.53059 days
27.321661 days = 655.71986 hours


NASA uses the sidereal system (relative to stars) for expressing the lunar month (T), the terrestrial day (t) and for calculating the velocity of the moon [2]. But Moslems also use the sidereal system (relative to stars) in their proof.

Distance:
So the formula as proposed by Allah is:

Distance traveled by angels in one day = 12000 x Distance traveled by moon during one orbit

And since Distance = Velocity x Time:

Þ C t = 12000 Vo T

Where:

C
Is the velocity of angels, which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration).

t
Is the sidereal terrestrial day defined as the time of one rotation of the Earth about its axis (relative to the stars); i.e. 23 hr, 56 min, 4.0906 sec = 86164.0906sec.

Vo
Is the inertial velocity of the moon (no external forces, no acceleration, no deceleration); which we intend to calculate.

T
Is the sidereal lunar month defined as the time of one revolution of the moon around Earth (relative to the stars); i.e. 27.321661 days = 655.71986 hours.


(see how gravity affects those times and distances, according to Einstein’s theory of general relativity, at footnote [3])

Velocity of the Moon:
Unlike the speed of light, the velocity of the moon is not constant. NASA measured the instantaneous velocity of the moon at various instances throughout its orbit. These measurements show that the velocity of the moon varies considerably (from 3470 km/hr up to 3873 km/hr); which means that the moon accelerates and decelerates continuously. The average lunar velocity is Vavg = 3682 km/hr. Most astronomy textbooks calculate this value manually by the following method:

Velocity = Distance / Time = Length of lunar orbit / Time

As the Earth goes around the sun, the whole moon’s orbit travels along with Earth. This makes the moon travel in a much longer spiral path; But this is not the length of the lunar orbit relative to Earth. The lunar orbit relative to Earth is almost circular having an average radius R = 384267 km. So, the length (L) of this circular lunar orbit relative to Earth is:

L = 2 π R

V = L / T Þ V = 2 π R / T

Substituting R = 384267 km and T = sidereal lunar month = 655.71986 hr:

V = (2 x 3.l4l593 x 384267) / 655.71986 = 3682.092 km/hr

Although this velocity is correct relative to Earth, this velocity is under the influence of the gravitational pull of the sun, stars... (external forces, acceleration); and we need to compare it to the speed of light in vacuum, that is, without any gravitational pulls at all (no external forces, no acceleration). But for any meaningful comparison, they should both be under the same conditions, that is, either both compared with external forces (acceleration) or both without:

299,792.458 km/s is the speed of light in vacuum, that is, outside matter and gravitational fields. This is not the speed of light inside matter (example: speed of light in glass is 199,861.638 km/s; that is around 100,000 km/s slower than in vacuum). Similarly, this is not the speed of light inside gravitational fields. The velocity of light varies with the intensity of the gravitational field. Since we are comparing the velocity of the moon relative to the speed of light, therefore we have to compare them inside the same medium, that is either both compared inside the same gravitational field or both outside. Since 299,792.458 km/s is the speed of light outside gravitational fields, then for any meaningful comparison, we have to calculate the velocity of the moon outside all gravitational fields as well before comparing them (we have to calculate Vo without any external forces at all; zero acceleration velocity).

Let ø be the angle traveled by the Earth-moon system around the sun during this one sidereal month. The velocity of the moon V is simply the sum of the tangential velocity Vt plus the radial velocity acquired from the gravitational pull of the sun Vr:



Since we have to disregard the gravitational field, then we have to disregard the velocity acquired from that gravitational field as well. In other words, we have to disregard the radial velocity component Vr=Vsinø (because it is acquired from the gravitational field of the sun).



This implies that we have to consider only the tangential velocity component of the moon relative to the sun. In other words, we should only consider the unaccelerated tangential velocity component Vt =Vcosø.



As for the effect of the gravitational field of distant stars: Like the sun, during this one month, the moon would have traveled (relative to them) an angle ø = zero (undetectable). And since cos(0) = 1 then Vt=Vcos(0)=V; that is, the results would not change… The gravitational pull of distant stars is negligible and cannot (detectably) accelerate the moon during this one month, so Vr remains zero; however, the gravitational pull of the nearby sun is very significant and does accelerate the moon. Add to this that scientists disregard the influence of the gravitational field of distant stars when measuring the speed of light in vacuum (at 299792.458 km/s), but they never disregard the gravitational field of the sun.



As for the effect of the gravitational field of Earth: During this one month, the moon would have traveled (relative to Earth) an angle ø = 360. And since cos(360) = 1 then Vt=Vcos(360)=V; that is, the results would not change.



So the velocity of the moon outside all gravitational fields is:

Vo = V cosø

Where V is the velocity of the moon inside gravitational fields and ø is the angle traveled by the Earth-moon system around the sun during this one sidereal month. (Einstein’s theory of special relativity DOES NOT accept this velocity V but rather the velocity Vo without any external forces at all; zero acceleration velocity. see proof at footnote [4])

Speed of Angels:
So finally we can calculate the speed of angels in vacuum and compare it to the known speed of light in vacuum 299792.458 km/s:

C t = 12000 Vo T

And Vo = V cosø

C t = 12000 V cosø T

C = (12000 V cosø T) / t

Substituting the NASA sidereal values of the periods T and t (from above table); ø is 26.9295 degrees and could be manually calculated at this footnote [5]; cosø = 0.8915645, we arrive at the speed of angels as claimed in the Koran:

C = (12000 x 3682.092 x 0.8915645 x 655.71986) / 86164.0906

C = 299792.5 km/s


Exactly the known Speed of Light!!!

Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out the velocity of the moon relative to the speed of light?

[Quran 10.5] It is He (Allah) who made the sun to shine and the moon to light, and destined it in stages; that you may learn to count the years and the mathematics. Allah only created this in truth. He details His Signs for those who are knowledgeable (scientists).

See Length Contraction (below) for interstellar travel of angels.

(see the problem of Christians with the speed of light at footnote [6])


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Time Dilation
Surprisingly, Moslems use another formula to reveal that angels indeed accelerate up to the speed of light. Their Koran states another verse in which angels traveling at a certain velocity, appear to experience slower time than humans. But this agrees with Einstein’s theory of special relativity, which says that a faster moving object appears to experience slower time. Moslems use Einstein’s theory of relativity with this verse from the Koran to assert that angels indeed accelerate up to the speed of light:

[Quran 70.4] The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years.

Here angels will experience 1 day while humans will measure it as 50,000 years. However, according to the theory of special relativity, given this time difference (time dilation), we can calculate the speed at which that object traveled. We can verify if those angels really accelerate up to the speed of light, as claimed by Moslems, or not. Moslems say that since this claim can be verified in two minutes, then there is absolutely no need for blind faith:

It was not a Moslem but a Jew, Albert Einstein, who defined the famous theory of special relativity. According to this theory, space, time, and mass are not constant values; they change depending on the speed of that moving object. As the velocity of that object increases its time appears to elapse slower. Mathematically it is:


(Where ∆to is the time measured for a mover by a mover; ∆t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer):

∆to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).

∆t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 years x 365 days/year).

v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).

c is the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum.

From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity:




So let’s insert the Moslem claims and see if their angels really accelerate up to the speed of light or not. Insert dates from this verse ‘The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years’ into the formula:



v = c x 0.999999999999998498780258960404202

v = 299792.45799999954994564383561604 km / s


This time dilation (time difference) shows that angels indeed accelerate up to the speed of light (slightly less than c since they have mass). This can't be a coincidence because this is the same speed calculated from the previous lunar verse.

Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out Time Dilation and the core of Relativity?



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General Relativity
Moslems believe that Paradise and Hell are both much bigger and much more massive than Earth (but still much smaller than God's Throne). The theory of general relativity says that time should pass slower near an object more massive than Earth (in a stronger gravitational field). So according to general relativity, time should pass in Paradise/Hell much slower than on Earth. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. It is stated in the Quran that 1 day in Paradise/Hell measures a 1000 years on Earth:

[Quran 22.47] They challenge you to bring forth that torture [in Hell] and Allah will not break His promise; a day of your Lord [Paradise/Hell promise] is like a thousand years of what you count.

Here God promises those who do not believe in Hell and punishment that each day of their torture in Hell will measure a thousand years on Earth. So according to the Quran, time passes faster on Earth than in Paradise/Hell. But this agrees with the theory of general relativity which says that time passes slower near bigger mass. Paradise and Hell are much more massive than Earth and time should pass there much slower than on Earth.

The Quran says that God's Throne is wider than the whole universe. Moslems believe that God is not bound to His Throne; rather He created it and set it as a reference. Christians believe that God created the universe in 6 earthly days and rested on the 7th. Moslems believe that 6 days passed at God's Throne but we experienced 13.5 billion years on Earth:

God's Throne has higher mass than Earth. The Quran says that God's Throne is even wider than the whole universe; so how about the mass of God's Throne? God's Throne is much more massive than Earth. Time should pass there much slower than on Earth. The theory of general relativity explains why time passes slower at God's Throne than on Earth. General relativity explains why 6 days passed at God's Throne but we measured it as 13.5 billion years (that is each day at God's Throne measures around 2.25 billion years on Earth).

Science says that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and that the universe is 13.5 billion years old. This places the age of Earth at one third the age of the universe. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran says that God counted 6 days since the creation of the universe but God only counted 2 days since the creation of Earth:

[Quran 50.38] We [Allah] created the heavens and the Earth and all what's between them in six days, and We were not touched by fatigue.



[Quran 41.9] Say: "Is it that you deny Him [Allah] who created the Earth in two days? And you claim others to be equal to Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds."

So far, God counted 2 days for Earth and 6 days for the whole universe. The Quran clearly states that the age of Earth is one third the age of the universe [7]. Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out the age of Earth relative to the age of the universe?

(The Christian Bible puts the creation of Earth on day one; making the age of Earth equal to the age of the universe)

So according to the Quran:

God's Throne > Paradise/Hell > Earth

The smaller the mass, the faster the time

Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out that time passes slower near bigger mass?

The Koran says that time does not pass at the same rate (time dilation). Christians don't accept this time dilation (time difference) because their Bible says otherwise. (See proof that time dilation in the Christian Bible is wrong at footnote [8])


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Length Contraction (Wormholes)


Look up to the night sky and select a star as a destination. Can any human reach this star by just walking few steps?



General relativity explained a mechanism to contract this huge distance into few meters. Albert Einstein called this mechanism ‘bridges’ in space-time. Today, scientists call them wormholes. A wormhole would act as a shortcut connecting two distant regions in the universe.



A wormhole contracts the distance between two doorways placed separately anywhere in the universe. A direct consequence of this distance contraction (length contraction) is the effect on the scenery. Events at the destination would appear as if in 'Fast Forward'; while events at departure would appear as if in 'Fast Rewind':



Example, consider a galaxy 100 million light years away. When you look today from Earth to that galaxy, you will not see it as it is today, but rather as it was 100 million years ago. This is because light took 100 million years to travel all that distance. But if you take a journey inside a wormhole from Earth to that galaxy, you would reach that galaxy today. So when you reach it today, you will see it as it is today, not as it was 100 million years ago. So as you go forward inside a wormhole, events at that galaxy (your destination) would appear as if in 'Fast Forward' (from 100 million years ago till today).



When you reach that galaxy today and look back at Earth, you would not see Earth as it is today; instead you would see Earth as it was 100 million years ago (you would see the dinosaurs). This is because light took 100 million years to reach there. So as you go forward inside a wormhole, events at Earth (your departure) would appear as if in 'Fast Rewind' (from today till 100 million years ago).



On the return journey, events on Earth (destination) would appear as if in 'Fast Forward' (from 100 million years ago till today); while the events at that galaxy (departure) would appear as if in 'Fast Rewind' (from today till 100 million years ago). This is not time travel; this is just a consequence of the length contraction inside a wormhole.



So in short, a wormhole contracts the distance between two doorways placed separately anywhere in the universe. The effect on scenery is that the events at the destination would appear as if in 'Fast Forward'; while events at departure would appear as if in 'Fast Rewind'. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. God says that there are doors in the heaven that contract interstellar distances into walking distances. The resulting scenery is bizarre:



God says that those who do not believe in the message, will not believe it even if He showed them a bigger sign. God created beautiful towering structures in the heavens. If He opens for those nonbelievers a door in heaven and lets them continue walking through it to those distant structures, they would not believe that they really got there by simply walking few steps. Instead they would think that they are just optical illusions:

[Quran 15.13-16] They do not believe the Message, like those who preceded them; 14 Even if We [Allah] opened upon them from the heaven a door and they continued walking through it 15 they would say ‘Our sight is bedazzled, rather we have been bewitched’ 16 It is We [Allah] who have made towering structures in the heavens and made them beautiful for beholders. 17 And We protected them from every evil spirit accursed.

Here, they wouldn’t believe their own eyes thinking that what they see is not real. They wouldn’t believe that they got to those heavenly structures by simply walking few steps. But God insists that what they see is real and not illusions (that is, they really got there).



The Quran says that those heavenly doors are galactic shortcuts to distant places in the universe. Angels guard those heavenly doors 'from every evil spirit accursed'. Moslems believe that angels use these doors for long distance travel. Angels can accelerate up to the speed of light for domestic travel; but they use these wormholes to reach any place in the universe before you finish reading this sentence.



Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out Length Contraction and Wormholes? How could he have figured out that time passes slower near bigger mass? How could he have figured out that faster objects experience slower time? How could he have figured out the speed of light?

[Quran 41.53] We (Allah) will show them Our signs in the universe, and in their souls, until it becomes clear to them that It (the Quran) is the truth. Is it not enough (for nonbelievers) that your Lord witnesses over all things?


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Big Bang, Expansion of Universe, Big Crunch
Science says that the universe was created in a Big Bang 13.5 billion years ago, is still expanding today, and billions of years from now it will collapse by it's own gravity with a Big Crunch. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Koran says that on the first day of creation, God made the heavens and the Earth meshed together, tight and compact (Big Bang), continues to expand it into the universe we know today and at the last day God will recompress it into it’s original state (Big Crunch).

About the first day (Big Bang), Allah says:

[Quran 21.30] Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the Earth were meshed together but We have torn them apart? And then We have made of water everything living? Would they still not believe?

About expanding the universe today, Allah says:

[Quran 51.47] And the heaven, We built it with craftsmanship and We are still expanding.

About the last day (Big Crunch), Allah promises:

[Quran 21.104] On the day when We will compact heaven, like the folder compacts the books, and as We originated the first creation We shall return it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will deliver.

This is what science is pondering upon today.

Tectonic Plates
Science says that the Earth's crust has been slowly moving for billions of years. Not only mountains are still slowly moving but also whole continents. Moslems say that this is what Allah says:

[Quran 27.88] You see the mountains and think they are firmly fixed: but they are moving away just like the clouds are moving away: (such is) the artistry of Allah, Who disposes of all things in perfect order: for He knows all what you do.

Atmospheric Pressure
Science says that atmospheric pressure decreases with altitude; The higher the altitude the more difficult breathing becomes. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. The Quran says that as we ascend to the sky it becomes more difficult for us to breath:

[Quran 6.125] Those whom Allah wants to guide, He opens their chests to Islam; And those whom He wants to leave astray, He makes their chests tight and constricted, as if they are ascending to the sky: Such is the penalty of Allah on those who refuse to believe.

Ice in Comets
Science says that water on Earth actually came from outer space, particularly from ice in comets. When those comets enter our atmosphere, the heat generated on entry vaporizes this ice into the atmosphere. Moslems say that this is what Allah says. God says that there are mountains in heaven that have ice inside them. Those mountains could fall on Earth making a very bright flash.

[Quran 24.43] Can't you see that Allah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a pile? Then you see rain come out from within? And He [Allah] sends down from heaven mountains with ice inside them; that strike whomever He wishes or miss whoever He wishes; Its' flash almost blinds you.

Moslems ask where did this come from? How could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out that the stars were born from heated gas and dust if he never had a telescope? How could he have described the early stages of the embryonic development of a fetus if he never had a microscope? How could he have located the lowest geographical point on Earth if he never had a GPS? How could he have identified which part of the human brain is responsible for motivation, planning and moral judgment if modern science only determined that in the past few years with the most sophisticated equipment ever? Moslems ask if their prophet was not sent by God then where did this come from?


[Quran 34.6] And those who have received knowledge (scientists) will see that what have been sent down to you from your Lord (the Quran) is the Truth, and that it guides to the Path of the Exalted, Worthy of all praise.

Moslems invite all skeptics to see and judge for themselves whether the scientific miracles of the Koran are real or not at their website Miracles of the Quran.

-Speed of Light-


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[1] The Arabic word "Araj" means a man with a lame leg. In this verse, the Quran specifically uses it's verb "Yaruj" which simply means a man walking on a lame leg. The Quran is describing the lame steps of this 'cosmic affair' and literally says that it is 'at a measure of one thousand years of what you count'. And since this verse is describing something quantitative and emphasizing the lame steps then it has to be pointing to the distance. The distance is the only thing quantitative in this case.

About the Preserved Tablet:

[Quran 85.21-22] But it is a Glorious Quran. 22 Inscribed on a Preserved Tablet.



Moslems believe that Archangel Gabriel got the Quran to their prophet from this Preserved Tablet:

[Quran 15.8-11] We only send down the angels in Truth; if they were not (in truth), no respite would they have 9 We have sent down the Message; and We will preserve it 10 We did send Messengers before you among the religious sects of the old 11 But never came a Messenger to them but they mocked him.



The Quran and all the instructions to all angels were inscribed on this Preserved Tablet before the creation of Earth started. They commute to and from this Tablet to get their orders from God. The angels were originally made of light, and the speed at which they commute to and from this Tablet turned out to be the known speed of light.



[2] The time between two consecutive new moons is 29.53 days and is called the synodic month (synodic means relative to the sun). During this time, the Earth and consequently the entire moon's orbit would have traveled a considerable distance around the sun. When looking from Earth to the path of the moon relative to the stars, the position of the moon against the background of stars is different. This is because during this 29.53 days, the moon would have traveled relative to the stars more than a complete circle (traveled more than one orbit). The time for the moon to return to the same position in the sky relative to the stars (and hence an exact circle) is called the sidereal month (sidereal means relative to the stars), and is 27.32 days (2.2 days shorter). And since we need to measure the time for an exact orbit (and not a circle plus two days, and then multiply this big error 12000 times!!!) we have to use the sidereal system. It is this sidereal system that actually represents the real time for one revolution in the moon's orbit.



[3] According to the theory of general relativity, just as faster moving objects experience slower time, objects in stronger gravitational fields experience slower time as well. That is, clocks on the moon run faster than clocks on Earth, and clocks on Earth run faster than clocks on the sun, and clocks in black holes simply stop. So, the same clock, timing those 12000 lunar orbits from Earth, reads much less time when timing them from the sun; and reads more time when timing them from the moon; the same clock timing them from a black hole doesn’t read any time at all. Moreover according to general relativity, the length of an object in a stronger gravitational field is shorter (shrinks), that is, 1km on Earth is longer than 1km on the sun, and 1km on the sun is much longer than 1km in a black hole. Simply put: gravitational fields disrupt both distances and times (space-time).



Moslems say Allah specifies ‘at a measure of one thousand years of what you count’, that is, times and distances as measured on Earth (Earth reference frame), simply because they are not the same anywhere else in the universe.

[4] The second postulate of special relativity declared by Einstein (1905) says:

"The velocity c of light in vacuum is the same in all INERTIAL frames of reference in all directions and depend neither on the velocity of the source nor on the velocity of the observer".

Einstein's theory of special relativity states that the speed of light in vacuum is always the same (at 299,792.458 km/s) but this is true only for systems that are inertial, which means not accelerating.

From Newton's second law: if forces exist, implies acceleration exists. This means that special relativity is valid only when no forces are acting. Thus, it cannot be used when there is a gravitational force present. Albert Einstein himself emphasized this in his paper written in 1917:

"The results of the special relativity hold only so long as we are able to disregard the influence of gravitational fields on the phenomena".

Therefore, the results of special relativity do not hold with the gravitational pulls of the sun, stars... For the results of special relativity to hold, the systems should not be accelerating (should not be in a gravitational field). This is why we have to disregard all gravitational fields in our calculations.

Since we are comparing the velocity of the moon relative to the speed of light, therefore we have to calculate the velocity of the moon under the same conditions: vacuum. But to attain vacuum, it is not sufficient just to eliminate from a volume of space every atom, molecule and particle; it is necessary also to get rid of the gravitational field. Only when we screen out the gravitational fields of the Earth, sun, and distant stars (vacuum) can the velocity of the moon in vacuum be compared to the speed of light in vacuum.

[5] Every two new moons (one lunar month), the moon will travel 29.10675 degrees relative to the sun. So the average angular velocity of the moon relative to the sun is 29.10675 degrees / 29.53059 days = 0.98564742 degrees / day. Therefore during the one sidereal month, the moon will travel relative to the sun an average angle:

ø = 27.321661 days x 0.9856472 degrees / day = 26.92952 degrees

More accurately, we can calculate ø from the period of one heliocentric revolution of the Earth-moon system (365.2421987 days).

ø = 27.32166088 days x 360 degrees / 365.2421987 days = 26.92952225 degrees

[6] The Christian Bible says that the universe was created less than ten thousand years ago. Science says that the universe was created 13.5 billion years ago. We can actually observe galaxies 13 billion light years away; that is, light already traveled 13 billion years before it reached us. This alone proves their Bible wrong. To fix this problem, they need the speed of light to decay (to slow down over time); that is, light was faster and covered that distance in much shorter time. But the theory of relativity says that the speed of light is constant... Since the theory of relativity contradicts their Bible, they need the theory of relativity to be wrong for their Bible to be correct.

[7] Moslems believe that God sustains all living things. And all His commands to the angels to sustain man and animals were inscribed on the Preserved Tablet. The Quran says that not even a leaf would drop on Earth without it being previously recorded in this Preserved Tablet.

God says that He inscribed this Preserved Tablet before the creation of Earth started. The Quran says that God answered our prayers today (as commands for the angels on the Preserved Tablet) during the first four days when Earth was still smoke. After this God ordered Earth to form:

[Quran 41.9-12] Say: "Is it that you deny Him [Allah] who created the Earth in two days? And you claim others to be equal to Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds." 10 He set on it (Earth) mountains, and bestowed it with blessings. And [Allah] estimated all its sustenance in four days, equally for those who ask (prayers) 11 AFTER THIS [Allah] commanded the heaven and it was still smoke. He said to it and to Earth: "Come together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come together, in willing obedience". 12 So [Allah] decreed them as seven heavens (one above the other) in two days and revealed to each heaven its orders. And We [Allah] adorned the lowest heaven with lights, and retentions (gravity). Such is the decree of the Exalted; the Knowledgeable.

God answered our prayers today when Earth was still smoke (the first four days). After this God ordered Earth to form. The formation of Earth took two days.

Also in the last two days, God created seven heavens, one above the other, but we can only see the lights of the lowest one.

[8] It is interesting to note that the Christian Bible has a similar claim about time dilation (time difference):

(2Peter 3:8) But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, AND A THOUSAND YEARS ARE LIKE A DAY. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Obviously this verse is talking about God's patience, but some Christians say that it predated the scientific claims of the Koran.

First, if this verse was referring to time difference (time dilation) due to the mass of God's Throne, then the Bible got it wrong: 1 day at God's Throne should measure 2.25 billion years on Earth. Instead the Bible says that 1 day on Earth measures a 1000 years by God. The Bible got it in reverse! So how small is God's Throne? Even if God's Throne is microscopic, Earth is not massive enough to generate this time dilation.

Second, if this verse was referring to time dilation due to God's movement then it got it all wrong as well. Special relativity states that a faster moving object experiences slower time and not the other way round. In this verse in the Bible, it is man who experiences the slower time; hence travels faster than God! Man experiences less time of 1 day (travels fast) and God experiences more time of 1000 years (travels slow). This verse practically says that once God travels faster than man but immediately follows it with a fatal mistake that man travels faster than God.

Third, some Christians claim that Quran 32.5 (angels travel in a day the same distance that the moon travels in a 1000 years) is a restatement of this Bible verse. Not only this Bible verse does not talk about any distance traveled, but also Christians and the Jews before them use solar years. The Jews used to add a 13th lunar month every few years to make up for the difference between the lunar and the solar year. The calculations based on their standards fails to reveal the speed of light. The other problem with this Christian claim is that the Quran is referring to the angels moving and not God moving. Here in this Bible verse God has to be moving.

So the Bible got it wrong in every possible way.

Actually the Bible records scientific knowledge that contradicts all modern science and genetics. While today's scientists have confirmed that animals inherit their colors and stripes from their parents (through DNA), the Bible says something else: In Genesis 30:37-42, the Bible explains how baby goats get their streaked colors: If their parents were mating AND LOOKING at upright rods, then the baby goats will have stripes. While if their parents were mating BUT NOT LOOKING at upright rods, then the baby goats will not have stripes!

Do we really need science to reject this one?

Anyhow, if science is too much for the Bible, let's try common sense: Common sense says that the sun illuminates Earth, and that without sunlight darkness will cover the Earth. Is there anything simpler? But the Bible says something else: In Genesis 1:1-31, the Bible explains how the sun is related to day and night. The Bible says that on the first day, God created the light and darkness on Earth. The first evening came and the first morning followed. But God did not create the sun until the fourth day, specifically after three evenings and three mornings. So three evenings and the three mornings occurred on Earth before there was a sun. So according to the Bible, daylight occurs without the sun!


[Quran 2.23-24] And if you were in doubt about what We have revealed to Our servant, then bring forth a book like the Quran; and call your witnesses (scientists) to prove it contrary to Allah, if you were truthful. 24 But you cannot and will never (be able). So beware of a fire whose fuel is men and stones prepared for blasphemers.

[Quran 2.79] Then woe to those who write the book with their own hands, and then say: "This is from Allah" to promote it for miserable gains! Woe to them for what their hands wrote, and for their gains.
Actual article from LI with mock drawings


Please use the search feature, so you are not re-hashing old threads to get a rise out the Muslims on board when they are fasting. While simultaneously dulling their senses with the usual platitudes!

peace
Reply

Trumble
09-22-2007, 11:44 PM
This




Where ∆to is the time measured for a mover by a mover; ∆t is the time measured for a mover by a stationary frame; v is the velocity of the mover relative to the stationary observer):

∆to is the time experienced by angels (1 day).

∆t is the time as measured by humans (50,000 years x 365 days/year).

v is the velocity of angels in this case (which we intend to calculate and then compare to the known speed of light).

c is the known speed of light 299792.458 km/s, the speed of light in vacuum.

From the above equation we can solve for the unknown velocity:



So let’s insert the Moslem claims and see if their angels really accelerate up to the speed of light or not. Insert dates from this verse ‘The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day, the measure of which is fifty thousand years’ into the formula:




v = c x 0.999999999999998498780258960404202

v = 299792.45799999954994564383561604 km / s

is meaningless! I can see why you left the equations out; I linked to what I assume is the original article here.

I'm no mathematician, but you don't have to be to see that whatever numbers go in the denominator as long as they are large you will get a result for v that is as close to c as makes no difference. They don't even have to be close to 50,000, 12 and 27.32 or any combo that multiplies out to the same figure.


Moslems ask how could an illiterate man who lived 1400 years ago have figured out Time Dilation and the core of Relativity?
No need to ask it. There is just nothing there that suggests "Time Dilation and the core of Relativity" at all, beyond the tenuous (and obviously poetic) suggestion to the effect that one 'day' for God is 50,000 years for humans - making no mention of motion anywhere. Which could just as well be 20,000 or 100,000 years and make no difference in the math presented.
Reply

Md Mashud
09-22-2007, 11:52 PM
I'm no mathematician, but you don't have to be to see that whatever numbers go in the denominator as long as they are large you will get a result for v that is as close to c as makes no difference. They don't even have to be close to 50,000, 12 and 27.32 or any combo that multiplies out to the same figure.
Actually, to get to the accuracy, as below...

Today, according to the US National Bureau of Standards, the speed of light in vacuum (outside matter and gravitational fields) is = 299792.4574 +/- 0.0011 km/s. According to the British National Physical Laboratory, the speed of light = 299792.4590 +/- 0.0008 km/s (making an average with the US standard = 299792.458 km/s).
Which is derived by that as..

v = 299792.45799999954994564383561604 km / s
Is quite good, i don't think, due to it being squared then square rooted - you would get somthing as close, with numbers such as 12.
Reply

Trumble
09-23-2007, 01:07 AM
The square root of a very, very small number (and it is very small) is still a very, very small number! The equation defines v in terms of c. Whatever c is, stick any large number in the denominator and v will be, to all intents and purposes, the same as c, certainly to within the 3 decimal places to which c (in km/s) can be measured. Even if we could measure c to infinity minus one decimal places the bigger the numbers, the closer to c v is.

The only way you could derive anything useful from this at all is if you could provide an accurate and precise figure (i.e to a very large number of decimals, if not infinity minus one) for the mass of an angel, whereupon you could then calculate exactly how far short of c v should be and therefore test what the multiple of the denominator figures should be.
Reply

جوري
09-23-2007, 02:15 AM
I hope your original reply wasn't for the quote I linked?.. I don't think any thread can withstand anymore of your tortured metaphors.
Maybe an unnamed scientist on google can pick up where your shortcomings have left off..
Reply

NoName55
09-23-2007, 02:53 AM
^^^ Jazak illah khair

This is the first post that actually made me smile in days

wa salaam alaikum
Reply

NoName55
09-23-2007, 03:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

As far as I know, the world translated here as days can also mean an unspecified time period... or something like that?
:w:

yom = day (yom al qiyamah means day of reckoning NOT period of)
ayyam = days

whether it is day of our understanding or God's 1000 or 50000 depending on what point He (s.w.t.) was making in Quraanic ayaat.

btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread (other than smirking and mocking from our resident kuffaar)?
Reply

snakelegs
09-23-2007, 03:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread?
nah
Reply

Isambard
09-23-2007, 03:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I hope your original reply wasn't for the quote I linked?.. I don't think any thread can withstand anymore of your tortured metaphors.
Maybe an unnamed scientist on google can pick up where your shortcomings have left off..
Another good rebuttle answered with insults.

Cute.

Trumble, I find what you pointed out interesting
Reply

Intisar
09-23-2007, 03:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread (other than smirking and mocking from our resident kuffaar)?
Nope. :-\ I'm used to it, and I see it as a waste of time for everyone. It's Ramadan, threads that just turn into quarrels should be closed for our sake. And May Allah guide those of the misguided, ameen.
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جوري
09-23-2007, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Isambard
Another good rebuttle answered with insults.

Cute.

Trumble, I find what you pointed out interesting
You have something to say to trumble I suggest you quote him directly or by way of PM, there is no good reason that I can fathom for you to quote me in the process!
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جوري
09-23-2007, 04:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
:w:


btw. Does anyone see us gaining anything tangible from this thread (other than smirking and mocking from our resident kuffaar)?
They can smirk and mock all the want.. I don't personally understand why they obsess with a religion they don't subscribe to or a God they don't believe in, or a doctrine to which they all pretend to be the awaited exegete, as if none of us have ever read the Quran before least of which in the mother tongue!
every town has its crier.. but I think even criers take a holiday--no?!

either way I wouldn't worry about what they think or believe.. some guests like to incommode their hosts.. you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...
:w:
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ranma1/2
09-23-2007, 07:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

As far as I know, the world translated here as days can also mean an unspecified time period... or something like that?
this always gets me.

read the book literally "except when you cant"

lets say that days mean roughly a 24 hour time period.
Why would god use something so vague? if it didnt mean roughly a 24 hour period.
it seems to be VERY misleading.
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Md Mashud
09-23-2007, 08:03 AM
For the mutjahids it was perfectly clear. Hence why, we should not derive meanings from the Quran in this time - as we do not have the capacity nor ability. Does this mean we are ****ed without knowing? Not at all, people of very long time ago kept tafsirs of everything. If anyone bothered to check em up instead of finding a translation randomly off Quran and playing as a Mutjahid with itjihaad - well ....
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Trumble
09-23-2007, 09:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I hope your original reply wasn't for the quote I linked?.. I don't think any thread can withstand anymore of your tortured metaphors.

Of course it was in response to that quote - I quoted it (including the missing equations). I didn't use any metaphors, tortured or otherwise.

Perhaps you might care to comment on what I actually posted, which was a look at the mathematics used to support a particular claim and was completely devoid of any 'smirking' or 'mockery' as far as I can see. You could always 'incommode' me in return by refuting the refutation? You are a scientist, after all. I'd hurry up, seems folks are in a hurry to get the thread closed.

Let's try another quote in relation to this forum as a whole; a little philosophy this time.

Let us now pass to the second division of the argument, and dismissing the Supposition that any of the received opinions may be false, let us assume them to be true, and examine into the worth of the manner in which they are likely to be held, when their truth is not freely and openly canvassed. However unwillingly a person who has a strong opinion may admit the possibility that his opinion may be false, he ought to be moved by the consideration that however true it may be, if it is not fully, frequently, and fearlessly discussed, it will be held as a dead dogma, not a living truth.

There is a class of persons (happily not quite so numerous as formerly) who think it enough if a person assents undoubtingly to what they think true, though he has no knowledge whatever of the grounds of the opinion, and could not make a tenable defence of it against the most superficial objections. Such persons, if they can once get their creed taught from authority, naturally think that no good, and some harm, comes of its being allowed to be questioned. Where their influence prevails, they make it nearly impossible for the received opinion to be rejected wisely and considerately, though it may still be rejected rashly and ignorantly; for to shut out discussion entirely is seldom possible, and when it once gets in, beliefs not grounded on conviction are apt to give way before the slightest semblance of an argument. Waiving, however, this possibility — assuming that the true opinion abides in the mind, but abides as a prejudice, a belief independent of, and proof against, argument — this is not the way in which truth ought to be held by a rational being. This is not knowing the truth. Truth, thus held, is but one superstition the more, accidentally clinging to the words which enunciate a truth.
J S Mill On Liberty

The whole chapter, and indeed the whole book, is well worth reading before you get 'incommoded' again. :)
Reply

aamirsaab
09-23-2007, 11:16 AM
:sl:
Even when an answer is given, an argument arises.

Typical human beings.

:p
Reply

Malaikah
09-23-2007, 11:29 AM
:sl:

This whole speed of light thing is pretty dodgy... firstly they seem to have misunderstood the verse. They are somehow trying to imply that it takes the angels one day to reach their Lord by our time, but it actually takes them 50,000 years to make the trip.

I could be wrong, but this seems to be a totally incorrect understand of the verse. According to tafsir Ibn kathir, the verse is talking about the Day of Judgement:

Concerning Allah's statement,


﴿فِى يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ﴾


(in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) This refers to the Day of Judgement. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded from Ibn `Abbas that he said concerning the Ayah,


﴿فِى يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ﴾


(in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) "It is the Day of Judgement.'' The chain of narration of this report (to Ibn `Abbas) is authentic. Ath-Thawri reported from Simak bin Harb from `Ikrimah that he said concerning this verse, "It is the Day of Judgement.'' Ad-Dahhak and Ibn Zayd both said the same. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas concerning the Ayah,


﴿تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَـئِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِى يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ ﴾


(The angels and the Ruh ascend to Him in a Day the measure whereof is fifty thousand years.) "It is the Day of Judgement that Allah has made to be the measure of fifty thousand years for the disbelievers. ''
I'm sorry but this article is very, very odd. first off all, it says that the preserved tablet is in outer space, next to earth. That is not correct, as far as I know, the tablet in somewhere in the heavens nearer to Allah. Can someone please correct me if I am mistaken here.

Also if we assume that angels can only travel less than the speed of light, then that means Jibreel had to travel from being in the presence of Allah (not even in this universe any more, somewhere closer up the seventh heaven), straight to earth and come to the presence of Muhammad Rassullah pbuh. That is impossible!!!!! He COULD never have completed that journey at the speed of light! Just the light from the outer edges of the universe, which is already travelling at the speed of light (duh) hasn't even reached us yet, and its been billions of years, so how is Jibreel meant to travel the distance off the seven heavens, including this universe, many many times, back and forth, in only 20 years, at just less than the speed of light?! (keeping in mind that the universe is tiny compared to the seven heavens!)


It is the angels who carryout this 'cosmic affair'. Hence in 1 day, the angels will travel a distance of 1000 years of what they counted. Obviously they counted lunar years (see Arabic wording at footnote [1]). So Allah is saying that angels travel in one day the same distance that the moon travels in 1000 lunar years, that is, 12000 lunar orbits (1000 years x 12 orbits/year).
Actually Allah did not say that in the verse at all. :? The moon is not even mentioned in the verse!!! Only time is mentioned, not distance!

God's Throne has higher mass than Earth. The Quran says that God's Throne is even wider than the whole universe; so how about the mass of God's Throne? God's Throne is much more massive than Earth. Time should pass there much slower than on Earth. The theory of general relativity explains why time passes slower at God's Throne than on Earth. General relativity explains why 6 days passed at God's Throne but we measured it as 13.5 billion years (that is each day at God's Throne measures around 2.25 billion years on Earth).
Okay... now this is weird, for a number of reasons:

1. They are implying that the heaven and the earth were somehow created in the vicinity of the throne of Allah. Is there even any proof for that?
2. Is this trying to imply that Allah Himself felt time going slower because He was next to His throne?! I really hope not. Time is a creation of Allah and Allah is not bound by it at all.
3. We do not know that the throne of Allah has mass or whether it is bound by the same laws of science as we experience on earth.

[Quran 15.13-16] They do not believe the Message, like those who preceded them; 14 Even if We [Allah] opened upon them from the heaven a door and they continued walking through it 15 they would say ‘Our sight is bedazzled, rather we have been bewitched’ 16 It is We [Allah] who have made towering structures in the heavens and made them beautiful for beholders. 17 And We protected them from every evil spirit accursed.

Here, they wouldn’t believe their own eyes thinking that what they see is not real. They wouldn’t believe that they got to those heavenly structures by simply walking few steps. But God insists that what they see is real and not illusions (that is, they really got there).

The Quran says that those heavenly doors are galactic shortcuts to distant places in the universe. Angels guard those heavenly doors 'from every evil spirit accursed'. Moslems believe that angels use these doors for long distance travel. Angels can accelerate up to the speed of light for domestic travel; but they use these wormholes to reach any place in the universe before you finish reading this sentence.
Honestly now, HOW did they exaggerate that out of a simple verse?!

Science says that the universe was created in a Big Bang 13.5 billion years ago, is still expanding today, and billions of years from now it will collapse by it's own gravity with a Big Crunch.
No they do NOT say this at all. Rather they say that the big crunch is one of three different possibilities.

I hate to say this, but many points in this article extremely exaggerated, they are interpreting verses of the Quran in ways they have no right to interpret. Many points made a reasonable, such as the ratio of the age of the earth to the heavens (actually, the length of time it took to create them), the bug bang, but as for all the calculations and relativity related things, I seriously question the validity of that.

Anyway, I think we are getting a bit off-topic here don't you think?
Reply

Malaikah
09-23-2007, 12:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
No need to ask it. There is just nothing there that suggests "Time Dilation and the core of Relativity" at all, beyond the tenuous (and obviously poetic) suggestion to the effect that one 'day' for God is 50,000 years for humans - making no mention of motion anywhere. Which could just as well be 20,000 or 100,000 years and make no difference in the math presented.
Exactly. For once I have to agree with you- the verse does not imply what the article would like us to think it does.

The verse they used to calculate the time speed the second time was completely misinterpreted in order to come up with that cacluation.

It does not mean that the angels experience a day while we measure it as 50,000 years. It means that the angels are coming to Allah on a day that is 50,000 years long, and that day is the day of Judgement according to the tafsir of Ibn kathir.

Completely misunderstood. :-\
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Trumble
09-23-2007, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
either way I wouldn't worry about what they think or believe.. some guests like to incommode their hosts.. you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...
I have the greatest respect for faith based beliefs and even arguments with faith based premises, provided nobody pretends they are anything else. My own religion is no different from the monotheistic ones in that respect.

However, if you choose to defend particular beliefs by ignoring faith based arguments in favour of claimed mathematical and scientific ones, you should be prepared for them to be criticised, and be prepared to defend them. It is no different from any other use of science and math; if, say, Hawking, published a cosmological paper he would lose all credibility overnight if his response to critical peer review was "you just have to shrug your shoulder, smile and move on...". If you think there is some 'get-out from criticism clause' when using math and science in a theological context, then you need to justify that. I think that there is, actually... it's called 'faith'.

For the record the first one is actually deeply flawed too. Life is too short to explain why in view of the response I'm likely to get, but you might wish to examine the adjustment introduced to supposedly compare like velocity with like. Does it? And is it needed at all? Other than to generate the desired answer, that is. :)
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جوري
09-23-2007, 09:00 PM
I have lost respect for you some time back... I was merely pointing that it is a waste of your time and mine to have this sort of correspondence back and forth.
I have seen how you make your arguments.. and we have already established, actually out of your own admittance that you are neither a scientist nor a textual/exegetical expert and you don't speak any semitic languages! I wasn't 'defending' anything to you anymore than looking for a critical view of what I have posted, least of which by your person!
If I wanted an opinion, I assure you, it wouldnt be yours that I waste my time on...

Have a great day
Reply

NoName55
09-23-2007, 09:15 PM
^^ be careful what you say to him, as I know from experience that arguing with this fellow is like a boxing match with one's hand tied and blind folded.

If I were to post any article, be it mine or from most eminent of Muslims, and this fellow was to allege error/discrepensy/contradiction or mistake, Muhammad (the admin fellow) would zap it without asking or giving explanation (unless of course one copy pastes from a fatwa shop)
Reply

جوري
09-23-2007, 09:20 PM
Akhi.. I simply don't care.. I promise you by all that I hold dear, I have stopped reading some time back.. I just wanted him to stop wasting his time, that he uses to quote me or expend time probing the web for one of his famous cyber rebuttals to an article I have posted.. as I can't think of something worst than time spent in an idle manner.
:w:
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NoName55
09-23-2007, 09:24 PM
^^ also I and a friend think these type of threads are idiotic and should be allowd to die

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Trumble
09-23-2007, 09:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I have seen how you make your arguments.. and we have already established, actually out of your own admittance that you are neither a scientist nor a textual/exegetical expert and you don't speak any semitic languages!
Neither is necessary for a straightforward examination of a fairly simple piece of mathematics. Neither is a cyber search (that was a rather curious comment from someone who cut n' pasted the whole article in the first place, I thought). As you are obviously capable of understanding both the math and my comments on it, I have drawn the obvious conclusion as to why you have have not provided a response. :sunny:

format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
^^ be careful what you say to him, as I know from experience that arguing with this fellow is like a boxing match with one's hand tied and blind folded.

If I were to post any article, be it mine or from most eminent of Muslims, and this fellow was to allege error/discrepensy/contradiction or mistake, Muhammad (the admin fellow) would zap it without asking or giving explanation (unless of course one copy pastes from a fatwa shop)
She isn't 'arguing', she's waffling.

The incident about which you seem to have a never-ending chip on your shoulder was in regard to something posted regarding my religion the equivalent of which you would find totally acceptable had it been posted in relation to yours. However 'eminent' the original source may be in the eyes of those who agree with him. It seems to be a level playing field you are objecting to?
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جوري
09-23-2007, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NoName55
^^ also I and a friend think these type of threads are idiotic and should be allowd to die

It is a recreational area, for some to foster self-esteem amongst other issues. The forum acts as a surrogate to nurture habits and traits, they are unable to otherwise accomplish in their every day life....clear cut DSM-IV cluster B..
Again, I wouldn't occupy myself with those too much...
1st ten of Ramadan are Mercy (ra7ma)
2nd ten of Ramadan are for forgiveness (maghfira)
last ten to be granted pardon from al7afera.. I'd focus my attention on that and try to acquire and learn all I can in the holy month--and not worry about fruitless debates.
:w:
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Woodrow
09-23-2007, 10:06 PM

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