Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

[believer]

This is addressed to Christians...

I noticed everyone is fond of using verses from John and Paul...

I have read the Bible many times and the only book in it that gave me a confirmation that Islam is coming is when Christ mentioned to his disciples...

"Cast away demons using my name, heal the sick using my name, Pray to God using my name... but there will come a time that you shall not use my name anymore and you will be praying to God directly."

In Islam... Muslims pray to God directly... have you ever noticed how history repeated itself? ... the Jews were given the clues about the coming of Jesus... but - they refused to believe. then, the Christians emerged... then when the Last Prophet was sent by God even when it was also mentioned in the old scriptures... the now Christians refuse to believe... what does this make them? ... no different from the way Jews treat the Early Christians...

Three eras... all aimed in the perfection of the true religion for man from God. Truly, the blind cannot be the same with those who can see.

[khairullah]

That's a clear clue, can you give me the reference, please.

[Isambard]

Thats referrring to the return of the Messiah

[Amadeus85]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

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[Pk_#2]

Is the Gospel meant to be a holy book?

Or

Where is the Gospel of Timothy?

[Pk_#2]

Message for some muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

Yeah exactly. :shade:

[believer]

That's a clear clue, can you give me the reference, please.

It's in the last part of Timothy's Gospel... I don't have my bible with me... but last time I read it was last year before I went to Saudi... and just after reading the Qur'an... the verse where Jesus Christ (Eesauh AS) mentioned it to his disciples... about the coming of the time where they will not be using his name anymore in praying to God... Eesauh AS was actually referring to a direct communication to God... where in the world can you find a religion which practice this?... Clearly... Eeasauh AS was actually talking about the coming of Islam.

This part of Timothy's Gospel struck my mind as I was reading the Qur'an for the very first time... last year.

About the coming of the comforter.. there were clearly verses mentioning the coming of the comforter but most Christians claim that this Comforter is the Holy Spirit... which is of course false... but if the comforter is the Holy Spirit... then why are Christians still praying to Jesus? Jesus himself mentioned of the time where we will be praying directly.... then why wold the Holy Spirit be another medium aside from Jesus?... if there was a time that God has given authorization for Jesus to mediate... and if it did happen only Allah knows best... but Jesus already mentioned in timothy that it will also end... praying and casting of demons and healing the sick by using his name...

If we will only be spending time to reflect on Timothy's gospel... we will realize that there is more truth in it than any of the other gospels in the Christian Bible.

This is just my reflection... I am not a Scholar in anything but I am more into reflecting anything I read... I would still be recomending every seeker to consult the scholars...

By the way... Allah sent the Qur'an to humanity specially for the people who THINK, who APPRECIATE and who REFLECT.

Doing those three requisites can guide any seeker of knowledge in finding truth in almost anything. A book is like water from a river... reading it is like pouring this raw water through a strainer... after you have poured it into a glass container.... re-reading it again is like pouring it again on another filter.... you get cleaner water this time.... as the book becomes clearer too.... if you allow the water to be still over time all the sediments will go down... giving you a much clearer liquid... this is reflection.

The only time the book becomes more clear is after we have closed it for a long time already.


Salaamualaikum!

[believer]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

We Muslims believe in the One God, we believe in all the books of the One God, we believe in the existence of angels... and we believe in the last day... and we believe that the One God sent his Prophets....

I was once a Catholic Seminarian... so I read the Bible a lot before... and reading it too much and reflecting on it much can lead a Christian to seek Islam... as it did to me.

Are you reading your bible well enough?

Of course it is corrupted... but - if you can identify the falsehood from the lies... then it's OK to read it. But, if you cannot tell black from white.... and cannot reflect on it... then I suggest you dont.

Now, how can you tell? .... that's where prayers come in.

Prayer for guidance.

Salaaam....

[Keltoi]

It's in the last part of Timothy's Gospel... I don't have my bible with me... but last time I read it was last year before I went to Saudi... and just after reading the Qur'an... the verse where Jesus Christ (Eesauh AS) mentioned it to his disciples... about the coming of the time where they will not be using his name anymore in praying to God... Eesauh AS was actually referring to a direct communication to God... where in the world can you find a religion which practice this?... Clearly... Eeasauh AS was actually talking about the coming of Islam.

This part of Timothy's Gospel struck my mind as I was reading the Qur'an for the very first time... last year.

About the coming of the comforter.. there were clearly verses mentioning the coming of the comforter but most Christians claim that this Comforter is the Holy Spirit... which is of course false... but if the comforter is the Holy Spirit... then why are Christians still praying to Jesus? Jesus himself mentioned of the time where we will be praying directly.... then why wold the Holy Spirit be another medium aside from Jesus?... if there was a time that God has given authorization for Jesus to mediate... and if it did happen only Allah knows best... but Jesus already mentioned in timothy that it will also end... praying and casting of demons and healing the sick by using his name...

If we will only be spending time to reflect on Timothy's gospel... we will realize that there is more truth in it than any of the other gospels in the Christian Bible.

This is just my reflection... I am not a Scholar in anything but I am more into reflecting anything I read... I would still be recomending every seeker to consult the scholars...

By the way... Allah sent the Qur'an to humanity specially for the people who THINK, who APPRECIATE and who REFLECT.

Doing those three requisites can guide any seeker of knowledge in finding truth in almost anything. A book is like water from a river... reading it is like pouring this raw water through a strainer... after you have poured it into a glass container.... re-reading it again is like pouring it again on another filter.... you get cleaner water this time.... as the book becomes clearer too.... if you allow the water to be still over time all the sediments will go down... giving you a much clearer liquid... this is reflection.

The only time the book becomes more clear is after we have closed it for a long time already.


Salaamualaikum!

I don't see how it is "obvious" to you that the Comforter is not the Holy Spirit. If you have actually read the Bible in detail and focused on the Comforter in particular, it is quite obvious that the Holy Spirit is being referred to.



JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."



JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

You cannot disregard John when discussing the Holy Spirit, as it is apparent from those verses that the Comforter is not Muhammed, and not even a man.

As for Timothy, it is primarily instructions for ministering, with instructions for proper doctrine, the role of women, and the treatment of elders thrown in. I'm not sure what verse you are referring to, but the one that always sticks in my mind is this one...

Timothy 6:13 "I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

[Isambard]

The Bible "predicts" Islam/Muhammed the same way way it "predicts" it and equates it with the Beast/Anti-christ of revelations.

[NoName55]

Gospel of Timothy gives a clue about the coming of Islam

perhaps someone should run a course to teach Muslim about the origins of Islam, whether It arrived with Hazrat Adam alaisalam or the Last Prophet of Allah.

please don't choose the embarassing titles !!!

[believer]

I don't see how it is "obvious" to you that the Comforter is not the Holy Spirit. If you have actually read the Bible in detail and focused on the Comforter in particular, it is quite obvious that the Holy Spirit is being referred to.


The Holy Qur'an Confirms that the Holy Spirit referred to by christians (include me in us christians before) is the Angel Gabriel...




JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."


Muhammad (pbuh) never said anything from himself in the Qur'an... the Qur'an was dictated to him by Angel Gabriel... and the message of the Qur'an is to confirm what was sent before..(i.e., the Torrah and the Injil - OT and NT) the Qur'an also teaches all things... check out and reflect on the scientific breakthroughs of modern science - it is written in the Qur'an also... The Qur'an reminds the stories of the prophets of the past... especially Moses and Pharaoh... because this is one of the stories where man's resistance to accept the existence of the One true God was more rampant... it is also where God demonstrated His power many times, yet Man still backslides into worshipping the golden calf... The Qur'an also told about the real story of Jesus the son of Mary... how he was worshipped by the Christians and how the christians say that God is three!.... check it out for yourself...



JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

EXACTLY!!! When the comforter comes (i.e., Muhammad RAW) .. and the Spirit of Truth! (i.e., Gibrail - Angel Gabriel) who goes out from God - will testify about God (ALLAH SWT)


You cannot disregard John when discussing the Holy Spirit, as it is apparent from those verses that the Comforter is not Muhammed, and not even a man.


The Comforter is a title... which describes what he has brought to us... Muhammad (RAW) was made instrument by God to recite the Holy Qur'an... an illiterate man from a desert tribe who cannot invent any poetry and who is known to be very honest since childhood... The Qur'an is a clear message to mankind about the promise and reality of Paradise for those who believe... the Comforting message is also the fact that humanity was given 1 mercy from God... this mercy can be seen how a mother nurses and takes care of her child... and God has reserved 99 more mercies in Paradise for the believers... can you not see who has more peace of mind among humanity? .... I haven't seen any single real Muslim who is a scitzo.... or a worrier...

As for Timothy, it is primarily instructions for ministering, with instructions for proper doctrine, the role of women, and the treatment of elders thrown in. I'm not sure what verse you are referring to, but the one that always sticks in my mind is this one...

Timothy 6:13 "I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.



In this verse... who's talking??? Christ or timothy?

RED INK REPLY

[believer]

The Bible "predicts" Islam/Muhammed the same way way it "predicts" it and equates it with the Beast/Anti-christ of revelations.

This is a misnomer... at any rate... just for technical clarity....

Bible = book; composed of Gospels according to the Apostles of christ.... but not really Gospel according to Christ. It was the Book of Revelations that predicted many things.... In fact - I was once fascinated by this book... really pondered a lot and reflected a lot on it. Was also very much attentive to the 700 Club whenever they have a segment about the book of Revelations.

The Anti-Christ is another entity of individual who is cleverly disguised as someone not persecuted by Mankind.

Muhammad (pbuh) is a prophet of God.

All prophets of God share the same impression to mankind.... they are all persecuted. some of them killed, some of them beaten, some of them mocked - most of them are if not all. The Anti-Christ will not have this trademark or signature.

Quite true, the Bible's Revelation predicted the coming of Christ and Muhammad in the same manner it predicted the Anti-Christ and the Last Days... in fact, it predicted many things including the coming of the comforter which will bring comfort to humanity in the form os ISLAM... the perfected religion of Allah... the religion practiced by all the prophets including Jesus (Eeasauh Alleihisalaam).

[Whatsthepoint]

In Islam... Muslims pray to God directly... have you ever noticed how history repeated itself? ... the Jews were given the clues about the coming of Jesus... but - they refused to believe. then, the Christians emerged... then when the Last Prophet was sent by God even when it was also mentioned in the old scriptures... the now Christians refuse to believe... what does this make them? ... no different from the way Jews treat the Early Christians...

The same goes for Muslims and the Baha'i, doesn't it?
Of course it doesn't, as Islam is obviously true and Baha'i false...

:)

[Trumble]

Has anybody found a reference for the original quote yet?

In this verse... who's talking??? Christ or timothy?

Neither. It's Paul writing to Timothy.

[believer]

Has anybody found a reference for the original quote yet?




Neither. It's Paul writing to Timothy.

:D:D:D

[Umar001]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

If by false you mean that its not the injeel that was given to Jesus then yes :D But I am sure you'll agree that books can contain some truth and falsehood, I mean many of the apocrypha books have both truth and falsehood, would you reject those outright?

Eeasauh AS was actually talking about the coming of Islam.

Just curious, how do you know Eesa, peac be upon him, actually said any of the words in the Bible?

[believer]

Just curious, how do you know Eesa, peac be upon him, actually said any of the words in the Bible?

please read next post...

[believer]

Just curious, how do you know Eesah peac be upon him, actually said any of the words in the Bible?

Nothing can be altered without basing it on something... the degree of truth is strong in the original texts of the Hebrew Bible which was destroyed by Constantine... it was revised to serve his political ambitions... Using the Religion of the followers of Eassauh AS at that time made sense in his pursuits of power.

If you have read the bible in it's entirety and reflected on it... with a clear understanding of the Natural Moral Law... you will be able to see the consistency of the nature of Eassah AS.

One way of knowing if it really was Easauh AS (Jesus Christ) who said it and not the writers of the revised and altered Bible... is to check if it doesn't contradict the Qur'an and Islam. Since the Injil is supposed to confirm the Qur'an - and this is according to the Qur'an itself.

So if a verse in the Bible confirms and supports what is in the Qur'an... then it should be considered some of the truths which constantine and Paul wasn't able to filter out or cannot filter out.

Moreover, it doesn't really matter much anymore if it was really Eassauh AS who said it or not... what matters really is what was said. We have to evaluate, weight, analyse and reflect on the words that was supposedly said. If it doesnt contradict, if it confirms, if it's consistent... then it's right. If it creates confussion... then there's something wrong with it.

We can also say that the present day bibles are scrambled messages of the original text... the right way of reading it is to read between the lines... much the same manner a computer would be reading or descrambling a coded or encrypted message.

Much of the truth and conviction comes after reflecting on what we read and of course after asking for divine guidance.

[khairullah]

I don't see how it is "obvious" to you that the Comforter is not the Holy Spirit.

Because Jesus (PBUH) said that the comforter will not come untill I depart, means When ever Jesus (PBUH) leave then the comforter will come.

Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realize that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

If you have actually read the Bible in detail and focused on the Comforter in particular, it is quite obvious that the Holy Spirit is being referred to.

No actually the earliar Christians changed everything and now you believe whatever came from their brains.

The Gospel of John is the most Controversial book, because many priest and Christians considers it anreliable.

and also the Authorship of the Gospel of John is unknown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_John

JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you."

here you can check the other verse does not mention the name of holy spirit which is a clear proof that the Bible is changed. That's why many Christians reject the gospel of John.

John 16:12

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me." John 15:26

In the King James version Holy Spirit is not mentioned.

Jesus said the comforter shall Glorify me

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) is the only one who Glorifies and Testifies Jesus (PBUH)


Jesus PBUH said "I will send him when I leave"

Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) came after Jesus fullfilling these prophesies.

[Umar001]

Nothing can be altered without basing it on something... the degree of truth is strong in the original texts of the Hebrew Bible which was destroyed by Constantine... it was revised to serve his political ambitions... Using the Religion of the followers of Eassauh AS at that time made sense in his pursuits of power.

If you have read the bible in it's entirety and reflected on it... with a clear understanding of the Natural Moral Law... you will be able to see the consistency of the nature of Eassah AS.

One way of knowing if it really was Easauh AS (Jesus Christ) who said it and not the writers of the revised and altered Bible... is to check if it doesn't contradict the Qur'an and Islam. Since the Injil is supposed to confirm the Qur'an - and this is according to the Qur'an itself.

So if a verse in the Bible confirms and supports what is in the Qur'an... then it should be considered some of the truths which constantine and Paul wasn't able to filter out or cannot filter out.

Moreover, it doesn't really matter much anymore if it was really Eassauh AS who said it or not... what matters really is what was said. We have to evaluate, weight, analyse and reflect on the words that was supposedly said. If it doesnt contradict, if it confirms, if it's consistent... then it's right. If it creates confussion... then there's something wrong with it.

We can also say that the present day bibles are scrambled messages of the original text... the right way of reading it is to read between the lines... much the same manner a computer would be reading or descrambling a coded or encrypted message.

Much of the truth and conviction comes after reflecting on what we read and of course after asking for divine guidance.

I think that this has a whole mass of wishful thinking. If something agrees with Islam then I agree it has the potential of being the words of Eesa, but we cannot say they are. Just like if a hadith agrees with the Qur'an then that hadith has the potential to be the word of the Prophet, but other factors play a part for us to be sure, such as the chain of narrators, a factor which is missing in the Biblical writings.

[believer]

I think that this has a whole mass of wishful thinking. If something agrees with Islam then I agree it has the potential of being the words of Eesa, but we cannot say they are. Just like if a hadith agrees with the Qur'an then that hadith has the potential to be the word of the Prophet, but other factors play a part for us to be sure, such as the chain of narrators, a factor which is missing in the Biblical writings.

When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.

The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.

[NoName55]

^^then it begs the Question; why is there any need for Quraan?

wa salam alaikum

[believer]

^^then it begs the Question; why is there any need for Quraan?

wa salam alaikum

Why not? ...

Although Islam somewhat shares the attributes of God... like it is the beginning and it is the end... Alpha and Omega nature.... since it has been the religion of every born child... in the end when one dies... if he dies with Islam as his state of being... then he is saved. Islam cannot attain it's full perfection if man or humanity was not ready for it.

In the same manner... that you cannot give Nuclear Physics books to a Kindergarten student.

Man has to receive the scriptures according to the development of covilization and human understanding.

In the early days of humanity's development... people doesn't have a clear understanding of what is a natural moral law or what is the common good concept. Thus, the introduction of the Torrah is fitting to have a regulation, law and order.

Now that man is OK with such orders and guidelines... Man still need to be educated with how to live humanely... and the Injeel is sent basically as an enlightenment for Man to live humanely.

Of course, still a portion of humanity is stuborne, simply because they are weak in spirit and are easily succeptible to the suggestions of the enemy to be arrogant and proud...

After humanity has received the Law and Order...(Torrah - OT) humanity lived more civilly... but still Man needed a follow up to develop and turn to the right way.

Then, the time is come for man to recieve Divine Guidance and a Way to Salvation... along with the torrah, saboor (psalms of David) and songs of solomon and along with all the other books brought by other prophets.... Man was able to extablish civilization inspired with moralities.

But still, Islam isn't yet perfected to this stage... and a large portion of humanity is still transgressing by practicing Shirk... so it is but appropriate that the Qur'an come as the final Testament for Mankind... like a graduate study program. The Qur'an is the final blocks of the building... like the crowning glory of a house - the roof over the building.

Like a house with an imperfect foundation (Torrah)... and more imperfect walls and divisions.... (Injil)... the Roof must at least be leak proof which protects all the other parts of the house underneath it.... (Qur'an).

I can't help but use these comparisons in order to explain my limited reflection and wisdom on the a divine rationale behind the subject.

Since Man is created weak... therefore, it is not expected for Man to be able to really absorb and comprehend the reasons why God decreed things as they are. We are made for a purpose and the purpose is not to investigate beyond what we can or what we shouldn't be investigating in the first place.

It might just defeat the purpose.

Salaamualaikum Brother.

[MadeenJibreel]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

We use Bible to disprove the Bible - those passages that obviously create the paradox in the Christian definition of faith.

[MadeenJibreel]

When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.

The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.

:w:

just a slight correction akhi - 'Isa alayhis-salam wasn't sent to all humanity, but only to his own people. In fact, this is also said in the Bible: "...do not unto the Gentiles...etc."

[NoName55]

Like a house with an imperfect foundation (Torrah)... and more imperfect walls and divisions.... (Injil)... the Roof must at least be leak proof which protects all the other parts of the house underneath it.... (Qur'an).

so we have to use all 3 now

I am getting more and more confused these days so shan't say anything lest I make a mistake

wa alaikum salaam

[believer]

:w:

just a slight correction akhi - 'Isa alayhis-salam wasn't sent to all humanity, but only to his own people. In fact, this is also said in the Bible: "...do not unto the Gentiles...etc."

thanks akhi! well accepted.:thumbs_up

[believer]

so we have to use all 3 now

I am getting more and more confused these days so shan't say anything lest I make a mistake

wa alaikum salaam

Not Necessarily.... I am merely pointing out the stages where man is right now. The Qur'an is more than sufficient for the believer.

However, for referencing... we may use the two other testaments or what's left of it in order to perfect our da'wa. That's if we are pursuing a direction to that particular audience.

If you are confused now... then I must be saying something wrong. Astagfirallah , may Allah forgive me.

Since I am not an authority on this... and what I am saying is based on reflections. there is no compulsion for anyone to pick it all up.

I am just convinced that it was through the thorough reading of the bible and much reflecting on it which planted the seed in my heart and mind that Islam is truly what it was really talking about.

The Bible never preached about Christianity... christianity is merely man made... Christ is really talking about Islam all along.

[MadeenJibreel]

Perhaps the "easiest way" (is there an easy one?) to shake the pillar of Christian faith in a Christian heart is to use the Bible to prove that the Bible is corrupted and that it contain an unsolvable set of contradictions. Once you do that, those honest Christians will accept it and start thinking about it and those dishonest and arrogant Christians will continue preaching lies like "Jesus is the savior, etc.".

Another point is that every not-too-much literate Muslim will defeat even the Pope in an honest conversation (honest means that the two will answer each other's questions, coz avoiding the question means that one cannot accept the fault in his own faith or that one has no knowledge about the asked matter).

[Whatsthepoint]

Another point is that every not-too-much literate Muslim will defeat even the Pope in an honest conversation (honest means that the two will answer each other's questions, coz avoiding the question means that one cannot accept the fault in his own faith or that one has no knowledge about the asked matter).

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

[MadeenJibreel]

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

Not true. Nobody has so far explained the paradox called "The Trinity". They like to use it everywhere, they take this as a name for their children, they call their institutions by that name, but if I ask the Pope himself today what the trinity is, he'll sound just as much confused as a 2-year old boy.

One cannot believe in a mess, one can only believe in the Truth.

[MadeenJibreel]

You have to consider that Christian, especially the Catholics, don't treat the holy Bible as you treat the holy Qur'an. They don't claim it's infallible, perfect or anything like that. Everyone's aware of the contradictions, mistakes etc and I am quite certain that 2 milennia of christian theology have explained or justified them all.
And not all things muslims find contradictory are actual contradictions.
So I don't think a not-too-much literate muslim will defeat the pope, a very-much-literate theologian.

Actually, I had quite a few conversations with some Christians, they all claim that the Bible is God's Word and yet when you present the Truth that is cannot be God's Word because of so many contradictions, they deny to see them.

[Whatsthepoint]

Not true. Nobody has so far explained the paradox called "The Trinity". They like to use it everywhere, they take this as a name for their children, they call their institutions by that name, but if I ask the Pope himself today what the trinity is, he'll sound just as much confused as a 2-year old boy.

One cannot believe in a mess, one can only believe in the Truth.

Do you honestly think that Christians, who have belived in, studied, argumented and seeked proof for the trinity for almost two thousand years, who have always faced opposition from other religions as well as from their lot...will change their mind after a muslim tells them it is illogical? Don't think so.
The pope most certainly won't and doesn't sound confused when asked about the trinity. I mean, the man studied it for his entire life, he wrote books about it and I don't know what else.

One of the main reasons why christians and muslims cannot get along is that they both use their mentality to disprove the other ones' religion. You can't do that.

For your information: I also think, the trinity theory is weird and all that...but I am not a christian nor a theologian...

[Whatsthepoint]

Actually, I had quite a few conversations with some Christians, they all claim that the Bible is God's Word and yet when you present the Truth that is cannot be God's Word because of so many contradictions, they deny to see them.

Yeah, some christians, especially evangelicals belive the Bible to be true from leter to letter. Catholic and most others are different.
Evangelicals belive in the 6-day creation, the great flood etc. However, they too have a vast theological tradition that explains the trinity, the contradictions, the mistakes. They've got it all. All religion have got it all.:happy:

[snakelegs]

just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.

[MadeenJibreel]

Do you honestly think that Christians, who have belived in, studied, argumented and seeked proof for the trinity for almost two thousand years, who have always faced opposition from other religions as well as from their lot...will change their mind after a muslim tells them it is illogical? Don't think so.
The pope most certainly won't and doesn't sound confused when asked about the trinity. I mean, the man studied it for his entire life, he wrote books about it and I don't know what else.

About the 1st paragraph: Actually, I know people who did change their mind and became Muslims. One needs not the Qur'an to see that the Bible is corrupted, it's enough to thoroughly study the Bible.

About the 2nd paragraph: Yes, the pope is confused. I wish to tackle his vast knowledge. He might be well versed and deception-trained than any of the Muslims on this very forum, but don't forget that a hypocrite will defend his stance no matter what. And those Christians who know they're not on the Truth and if they know what the Truth is and they don't want to accept it - well they can be called hypocrites. Not so long ago, a group of leading Islamic scholars of this era wrote an open letter to Vatican to unite with Muslims by believing in One True God, who has no son and no equal. I hope Vatican will study the letter well; many of the Vatican priests already know that Islam is the Truth, why don't we ask them to leave their chairs in Vatican and embrace Islam? Coz their chairs will not be warm for long; for a few days, of years, or even a few ten years perhaps, but then it's time to leave this world and time to answer some questions like:

1. Who is your Lord?
2. What faith did you follow?
3. Who is the Messenger of Allah sent to you, who did you follow?

And many will fail that very 1st test in the afterlife...

[Whatsthepoint]

About the 1st paragraph: Actually, I know people who did change their mind and became Muslims. One needs not the Qur'an to see that the Bible is corrupted, it's enough to thoroughly study the Bible.

About the 2nd paragraph: Yes, the pope is confused. I wish to tackle his vast knowledge. He might be well versed and deception-trained than any of the Muslims on this very forum, but don't forget that a hypocrite will defend his stance no matter what. And those Christians who know they're not on the Truth and if they know what the Truth is and they don't want to accept it - well they can be called hypocrites. Not so long ago, a group of leading Islamic scholars of this era wrote an open letter to Vatican to unite with Muslims by believing in One True God, who has no son and no equal. I hope Vatican will study the letter well; many of the Vatican priests already know that Islam is the Truth, why don't we ask them to leave their chairs in Vatican and embrace Islam? Coz their chairs will not be warm for long; for a few days, of years, or even a few ten years perhaps, but then it's time to leave this world and time to answer some questions like:

1. Who is your Lord?
2. What faith did you follow?
3. Who is the Messenger of Allah sent to you, who did you follow?

And many will fail that very 1st test in the afterlife...

There are also muslims who converted to Christianity.
Look, I am not saying that Christianity is the truth. I'm just saying that is is theologically explained and justified, just like any other religion. I'm sure Quran isn't perfect, however I am also sure that you have thorougly explained and justified it in the past 1400 years. Belief always finds a way.
They didn't say christianity should denounce the trinity. they said Christianity and Islam should strive for peace, together and without hatred and incidents.
You gotta understand that christian faith can be as strong as yours. You gotta know that chruistians find it perfect (the faith, not the bible) as you do.
I don't like youcalling christian arguments deceptive...who knows, muslim arguments could be deceptive as well.:happy:
Of course, there are mild christians and mild muslims, who convert to other religions. what would your advice be to a muslim who belives he or she's lost his religon? would you tell them to find another faith or would you send them to an islamic scholar? The latter? Well, I'd recommend the same thing to a chritian: visit a priest, a theologian - he or she will strenghten your faith.

As for the 3 questions...Don't know what to say. A just god would not judge people for following their religions, which are proven to be very hard to change for most people. So, if Allah is just, he won't care wheter you have been a muslim or a christian. A just od judges you by your deeds.:happy:

[believer]

There are also muslims who converted to Christianity.
Look, I am not saying that Christianity is the truth. I'm just saying that is is theologically explained and justified, just like any other religion. I'm sure Quran isn't perfect,

What is your basis for being certain that the Qur'an isn't perfect?... have you read it?


however I am also sure that you have thorougly explained and justified it in the past 1400 years. Belief always finds a way.

The Qur'an explains itself... it stands alone and it doesn't need human innovation.

They didn't say christianity should denounce the trinity. they said Christianity and Islam should strive for peace, together and without hatred and incidents.

The concept of Trinity is a Hang Up... this is an internal conflict... for as long as there is conflict within - peace cannot be achieved. For Peace and Charity begins within. I know the trinity concept since childhood and it is actually a sublime mind conditioning to make one confortable with the thought that God has needs.... this is definitely inconflict with the criteria in surrah al Fatihah which is also the touchstone of Theology that God is free of need... and that God is One. Good need not be Human or Spirit in order to send the message of Truth to Humanity... if God chooses to take the form of a man... then we cannot question it... but it will not make sense since HE doesn't need it... it will defeat the purpose of HIS very Omnipotent Being, All God needs to do is say Be and it will Be... Besides, suffering can never be a value... only Tyrants wants us to value suffering and make it as a virtue... in order to establish control.

You gotta understand that christian faith can be as strong as yours. You gotta know that chruistians find it perfect (the faith, not the bible) as you do.

Ok...

I don't like you calling christian arguments deceptive...who knows, muslim arguments could be deceptive as well.:happy:

maybe yes... maybe no....

Of course, there are mild christians and mild muslims, who convert to other religions. what would your advice be to a muslim who belives he or she's lost his religon? would you tell them to find another faith or would you send them to an islamic scholar? The latter? Well, I'd recommend the same thing to a chritian: visit a priest, a theologian - he or she will strenghten your faith.

A blind man cannot lead another blind man... If we donot have sufficient spiritual strength.. and if we donot possess an ample degree of faith... then we are realy in no position to gi ve any advise... In fact, he who gives advices need it more. Those who seek it, really don't take the advices.

As for the 3 questions...Don't know what to say. A just god would not judge people for following their religions, which are proven to be very hard to change for most people. So, if Allah is just, he won't care wheter you have been a muslim or a christian. A just od judges you by your deeds.:happy:

Not quite true.... the Qur'an has the answer to your last statement. But I will not quote the qur'an for the purpose of keeping our exchange more sincere.

Islam was not formalized as a religion but after Muhammad (SAW)... however, Islam is already a religion practiced by Adam, Noah, Moses, Abraham, Israel, Ishmael, Joseph, David, Solomon, Jesus (Peace be unto them all) and the last prophet Muhammad (RAW)... But humanity i the early times tend to put innovations... and normally they would persecute or kill the prophets... after the prophets are gone, then their spiritual or religious leaders would venerate these prophets and make them associates of God... to the point that people are actually worshipping and praying to the prophets.

Islam was given the name and the official structure as a religion for man during the time of Muhammad (RAW).... and this is authorized by God HIMSELF. In fact, Monastecism was also invented by Man... and God said Monastecism is ok... but Man cannot really go according to it. God also discourages man to attribute purity among ourselves since we are merely humans... but HE prescribes us to pursue purity in spirit and character. And this is the right way.

Man is always in the danger of falling into the trap of false superiority thinking... this is not coming from God... this is an idea given to us by the devil. If a Christian is sincere in his faith... there is no fault in him if he had no access in finding the higher truth which is Islam.... however, if he is truly sincere... a true Christian will recognize the truth about Islam the way he recognize his sons.

Let's face it... If Christianity is really the religion closest to the truth?... then why don't christians know the name of their God? ... and if they are truly saved by the Christ (pbuh)... then why are they still being punished once or twice a year i their lives?... this is a fact.

[believer]

just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.

not really... in fact, it is also incomprehensible to christians...

As a child... I would say in the name of the Father, and of the saon and of the Holy Spirit... then as I grew up, the Bishops change the term into the Holy Ghost - no one uses the term Holy Spirit anymore in the contemporary Catholic Community... I don't know the reason....

whenever comfronted by a problem... I am normally confused who to ask for help?... I sometimes feel ashamed asking the Father directly because I am afraid I would insult Jesus if I bypass Him... so I just cannot find any means how to have a personal level of communications with the Father Almighty... because - I have to pass by Jesus... and then, here's the Holy Spirit... I definitely am clueless about the Holy Spirit... or the Holy Ghost for that matter. I am aware there are fruits of the spirit... and that one of them is not to be jealous... because true love is never jealous - this is of course coming from the mouth of human writers who made the present day bible.... Paul included. How can I not be jealous and God is jealous.... If we are all from God?... then Jealousy is only but a natural reaction with a justifiable basis.

suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.

In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!

[Trumble]

just a not re: the trinity. i have come to the conclusion that it is simply incomprehensible to any non-christian.

I find the concept perfectly comprehensible; three aspects of the same thing.

That does not mean it represents any actuality, and of course I don't believe it does, but nonetheless it is absurd to claim it is 'illogical' or 'incomprehensible to Christians'. It is neither... however inconvenient that may be.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with 'the Gospel of Timothy', whatever that is supposed to be.

[snakelegs]

not really... in fact, it is also incomprehensible to christians...

As a child... I would say in the name of the Father, and of the saon and of the Holy Spirit... then as I grew up, the Bishops change the term into the Holy Ghost - no one uses the term Holy Spirit anymore in the contemporary Catholic Community... I don't know the reason....

whenever comfronted by a problem... I am normally confused who to ask for help?... I sometimes feel ashamed asking the Father directly because I am afraid I would insult Jesus if I bypass Him... so I just cannot find any means how to have a personal level of communications with the Father Almighty... because - I have to pass by Jesus... and then, here's the Holy Spirit... I definitely am clueless about the Holy Spirit... or the Holy Ghost for that matter. I am aware there are fruits of the spirit... and that one of them is not to be jealous... because true love is never jealous - this is of course coming from the mouth of human writers who made the present day bible.... Paul included. How can I not be jealous and God is jealous.... If we are all from God?... then Jealousy is only but a natural reaction with a justifiable basis.

you found it incomprehensible, which is why you left christianity, but obviously this does not present a problem for christians.
i also think your perception of jealousy or competition comes from your own projection and is not inherent.

suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

i have heard it said that monotheism was designed for the same purpose.

Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.

i have heard the same type of thing from people who have become christians.

In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!

i think you are very wrong here. a secular "christian" might think it is ok to live this way, but i do not think that a religious christian would condone this kind of life style. a practicing christian is no hedonist.
(btw, i was raised in no religion and have never belonged to one.)

peace

[snakelegs]

I find the concept perfectly comprehensible; three aspects of the same thing.

That does not mean it represents any actuality, and of course I don't believe it does, but nonetheless it is absurd to claim it is 'illogical' or 'incomprehensible to Christians'. It is neither... however inconvenient that may be.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with 'the Gospel of Timothy', whatever that is supposed to be.

ok. you have proven me wrong.
non-christians find the trinity incomprehensible.....except trumble! ;D

[believer]

peace

you found it incomprehensible, which is why you left christianity, but obviously this does not present a problem for christians.
i also think your perception of jealousy or competition comes from your own projection and is not inherent.


On the contrary - I do comprehend it... but I cannot fully accept it since this is not explained by God in the holy books and it is also not coming from God... in fact - God disproves this trinity concept and it is written in the Qur'an. why would I hold on to a lesser truth if I already found a bigger truth?


suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

i have heard it said that monotheism was designed for the same purpose.

I beg to disagree... as a matter of fact, Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can. If you will check history, Muslim politicians enter politics as a last resort in order to achieve a common good. Check for instance the last coup of Thailand... after establishing a new government, the temporary president who is a Muslim gave the seat to another who is not a Muslim. Muslims are not really comfortable occupying political positions.

Coorection: Monotheism isn't "design for that purpose" .... Monotheism is not designed by man... this is an order from a divine super power. unlike Trinity - man innovated and invented it to serve that purpose.... so again - you are wrong here.


Islam liberates man from this false ideology.

Of course it's hard to be a Muslim at first... in fact, when I became Muslim... I was happy to be able to pray the right way... and then, I was surprised - I have to do this 5 times a day!... Oh my! - what have I gone into?... I never thought about it, all I wanted was to find the truth and pray the right way... and it was really about making a total shift of lifestyle.
i have heard the same type of thing from people who have become christians.

I would really like to read or hear the testimonies of a former Muslim who became Christian... PLEASE... show me a link because this is actually unheard of for me. i.e., hearsay.


In christianity - I can afford to have a drinking nightlife while retain my spiritual integrity. I can afford for be innocent when I get drunk and end up waking up not in my house and in bed with a woman I don't know. And still, I can go to church on Sunday and be percieved as a pious individual... Who am I fooling? .... In Islam, you have no excuse and you are accountable to noone except yourself and God.

But Trinity provides an excuse and a way... because you can always seek the intercession of another associate or partner of God. If this has been authorized by God - only God knows... but the Qur'an clearly states that God never authorized it... and God himself declares his ONENESS. and That humanity should pray and worship HIM ONLY. This is the Truth!


i think you are very wrong here. a secular "christian" might think it is ok to live this way, but i do not think that a religious christian would condone this kind of life style. a practicing christian is no hedonist.
(btw, i was raised in no religion and have never belonged to one.)

Can you tell the difference between a secular and a religious Christian?... in christianity - religiousity means - going to church every sunday and never missing it. I think you have confused yourself with the secular order and the religious order or the monastic order... As you see, secular order christians or priests for that matter are presupposedly religious since they never miss a mass specially not the sunday Masses. I have lived in the seminary for 2 years and I am still part of the X-Seminarian league of the seminary I came from. I see nothing wrong with christians as a people... and by the way, it was normal and it is no secret for priests to be drinking as well (during off duty hours)... as long as they can perform and officiate mass without any problem - even under the influence of licquor.... Perhaps it also depends on location... where they are. At any rate. This lifestyle is non-existent in a Muslim world. And they don't even have to be an Imam or a Scholar in order to be religious... since Muslims need to pray ceaselessly... aside from 5 times a day, in almost every move they make - there is an equivalent prayer.

another thing... pre marital relationship is also non-existent because Muslims consider this to be Harram... (the Qur'an really did great in placing a criteria for mankind... the concept of Halal and Harraam is good to make Man stay in the right path..). Therefore, No Illegal Sex, No Drugs, No Wine, No Women/ Girlfriends, No Sin! - these elements make the Muslims far from the influence of Satan.... I don't see this in the Religious Christian world.

In the Christian world... a pious Christian also lives this way... but he is surronded by Music, Images, Pictures, Ideas and Concepts which are not sterilized by the Harraam and Halal concepts. therefore, he is still unaware of many things that are actually harmful for his spirit. At any rate, God will be the judge of each one..because only Allah knows what is concealed within the hearts of men.

[NoName55]

Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can.

politics is day to day living, no wonder we are in such a mess when we don't even uderstand the very basics of life

It really annoys me when I am having to pick on Muslims instead of kuffaar on the site, some times I end up saying nothing to either for fear of accusation and or hate messages

<< check out this thread

[Umar001]

Salam Aleykum Sister,

Both ex Christians here right? :)

[QUOTE=believer;847364]When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.

If God is omnipotent... then - I don't see any reason why God cannot use anything, anyone, or any event whatsoever to convey God's Message to humanity. If we are only pressing to validate who says who?... like finding credence on the narrators of the Bible... then, we will definitely fail to see many things in the light of (or at least what was left of it)... the original Injeel.

Sister, God himself has told us what is for us, we can argue God can use anyone or anything, and I agree, but the fact that God has told us the Qur'an and Sunnah are our guidance shows us that we don't need anything else.

Just as we need to find credence for the sayings of MUhammad we should then find credence for the sayings of Eesa? If not then why not?

As a side note, the Injeel was given to the Children of Isreal, not us, it's not for us and we don't need it, even if we had it. I know we love Eesa, and for us ex-Christians we feel we have a more closer reletionship to him, but we have to accept that he was not sent to us, and is not our immidiate prophet.

The Gospel is about the beatitudes... the parables... the way towards salvation. If the Bible is half false... it doesn't mean we cannot pick up some of the truth in it. Please - I am endorsing the adulterated Bible... but - if we Muslims would be prejudice about Christians in general.... (include the Atheists) ..... we are not really practicing Islam.

Even Essauh AS wouldn't do so. I am not defending them OK.... In fact, Essauh AS was sent not just for the believers and the pious... he was sent for all humanity as a sign and a way.... as a matter of fact, all prophets are.... and the last of the prophets Muhammad SAW was sent as a mercy and comfort for mankind. Mankind includes (Jews, Christians and Others)....

Now, it is clear that - Muslims should share the message to all.

How can we share something if we don't really like the very people we are going to share with?...

I am not saying I like them... but - I used to be one of them. And I really find it very hard to accept something from someone who shows prejudice to me.

It's like telling your son or commanding your son to share his toy to his neighbor peer. His neighbor might enjoy the toy, but your son might not enjoy the experience. Your son would enjoy the experience if he is made to understand the reason why he needs to share his toy to his neighbor.

Unless we see the non-muslims as - not part of the humanity referred to in the Holy Books... we are not going to be setting the right examples.

We know we have the Truth in our hands... we have nothing to prove... but We need to be living proofs of this truth. Sharing the Message is not just lip service.... infact the Qur'an prescribed talking in a good manner with the non-muslims...

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

and Allah knows best.

Sis I was a Christian too, and I spent most of my life reading the Bible for guidance. I also agree that we should not be harsh and dislike every non muslim, because from my personal experience it would have been hard for me to listen to a person who spoke down at me.

But this is a seperate issue from whether we can take the words in the Bible and try see truth in them. I would not take a hadith with no chain of narrators and try to pick the truth in it and then attribute it to Muhammad, and out of respect to Jesus or Moses or David or Solomon I refuse to attribute anything to them, incase I am wrong.

The point is... we don't have the luxury of time to do forensics investigation as to who wrote or who said what. - but we have sufficient time to investigate ourselves. Are we following the right way?...

I think the above, dear sister, is missing the point exactly. For us to know if we are following the right way we need to check who said what. Scholars of Islam have mentioned endlessly, that the isnaad is an amazing part of the religion, without it people would have said what they want when they want, but with the help of Allah and the isnaad we can distinguish truth from falsehood and so check if we are following the right way.

[believer]

politics is day to day living, no wonder we are in such a mess when we don't even uderstand the very basics of life

It really annoys me when I am having to pick on Muslims instead of kuffaar on the site, some times I end up saying nothing to either for fear of accusation and or hate messages

<< check out this thread

Salaam.... "believer shall not fear nor grief..." if you believe you are right - just feel free.

[believer]

[QUOTE=Al Habeshi;848749]Salam Aleykum Sister,


Salaaamualaikum.

I believe you are a speed reader... please check under my avatar brother.

Both ex Christians here right? :)

Correct

When I was still a non-Muslim... I have held to the verse where Essauh AS recomended to listen to the Pharisees - pick up the good things that they are saying and discard all the bad things... also not to follow the bad examples they are showing.

It became almost a habit... you may say second nature on me to be absorbing what is being presented, said, or written and if it has something wrong in it - my brain seems to go on automatik shut-off.


Sister, God himself has told us what is for us, we can argue God can use anyone or anything, and I agree, but the fact that God has told us the Qur'an and Sunnah are our guidance shows us that we don't need anything else.

Just as we need to find credence for the sayings of MUhammad we should then find credence for the sayings of Eesa? If not then why not?

As a side note, the Injeel was given to the Children of Isreal, not us, it's not for us and we don't need it, even if we had it. I know we love Eesa, and for us ex-Christians we feel we have a more closer reletionship to him, but we have to accept that he was not sent to us, and is not our immidiate prophet.


God sent prophets among men... in every nation... The Messiah Eassah AS was sent not as a prophet for us... ok, I may agree.... but he is not just a prophet...., therefore, what is his significance to humanity if not? ... I have seen some real Christians who have had a higher degree of iman and deen than most of the Muslims I know, the caring they share for humanity - I haven't seen here in Saudi... moreover, discrimination among Muslims is also apparent. If you fall in line for Salah... an Arab will not close the gap between his feet to an Indian, Nepaly, Bangladeshi or Filipino... Shiek Salah says these gaps are sign that we are letting the devil occupy this line... and we are comitting the sin of discrimination. apparently, it is rampant everywhere... all we have to do is really examine ourselves...

the reason is... good manners are being taught much in the Bible... and you get these from the parables... and the beatitudes.

The Qur'an is a criterion... and the sunnah is the ways of the prophet... The Qur'an serves as a final warning for wrong doers. In pre-islamic Arabia - people practiced the paganistic ritual of killing their unwanted daughters... tribes quarrel over the smallest and most shallow reasons... it is but fitting for the Qur'an to be sent here. If it can curb the wrongdoings of a really worse society... then it must be good elsewhere.

Astagfirhullah if I am wrong... but I wish not to sound defending the Bible... if you believe we should totally ginore it... then I will not contest it.

However, the Qura'n mentions about talking in good manner with the people of the book? ... how will they relate with us if we don't know what they know because we are simply ignoring it?

For the Arab - it is quite easy to relate with the sunnah... but for a non-Arab - this is entirely alien to them.
and I believe you need to support this further... Moreover, we don't have any distinctions among the prophets - they are all slaves of Allah... and we must look at the sunnah (as in - Ways of the Prophet)... there is a danger of committing a form of shirk by becoming a fan of any particular prophet. Don't misinterpret me.


Sis I was a Christian too, and I spent most of my life reading the Bible for guidance. I also agree that we should not be harsh and dislike every non muslim, because from my personal experience it would have been hard for me to listen to a person who spoke down at me.

But this is a seperate issue from whether we can take the words in the Bible and try see truth in them.

The issue is about the clue of the coming of Islam in the Gospel according to Timothy." since the issue in the world is that - Islam is the only religion that preaches the Tawheed... Islamic Monotheism... all the rest isn't. The Main enemy is shirk... it is easy to fall into shirk. The Remebrance of Allah alone is actually a 100% requirement by Allah... no partners. and Muhammad and Eessah and all the other Prophets are HIS slaves and servants... and we as believers are HIS slaves and servants... therefore - there is no distinctions among the prophets - Am I right?

I would not take a hadith with no chain of narrators and try to pick the truth in it and then attribute it to Muhammad, and out of respect to Jesus or Moses or David or Solomon I refuse to attribute anything to them, incase I am wrong.

thats a different case... no comparison.

I think the above, dear sister, is missing the point exactly. For us to know if we are following the right way we need to check who said what.

Agreed... do you know Bukhari personally?... is he one of the Sahabbahs? ... and about the Sahabbahs... what make them different from a modern day revert?... as a matter of fact - the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not allow the writing of the hadiths during his time... there is a reason for this. I believe I know the reason...

since Man is created weak... he has a tendency to idolize another human being... all he need to do is read a book about him... or watch a movie about him... the more story tellers there are... the more idolized the subject is. and for this reason... the Prophet Rasullullah recomended reading and reciting of the Quran. The ways of the prophet was intended to be passed by word of mouth. However, due to some reason, the writing of hadiths came to place.

The Qur'an also gives a glimpse in the life of the Prophet Muhammad SAW... it is also a clear book. and is also self explanatory... the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT... for me who have read OT and NT my whole life definitely do not find anything unclear with this... in fact, the Qur'an merely illuminated what was false and what is truth in the adulterated Bibles. plain and simple.


Scholars of Islam have mentioned endlessly, that the isnaad is an amazing part of the religion, without it people would have said what they want when they want, but with the help of Allah and the isnaad we can distinguish truth from falsehood and so check if we are following the right way.

The Christian term for Isnaad I believe is the Gift of Discernment. when a person is given this gift... it is easy for him to see truth from falsehood right away... in other words can also be connected with divine guidance. If one holds the truth in his heart and refuses to say it because of fear of anything... then he is as guilty as those hands that altered the Bibles...

I believe it is not merely saying what we want.

Salaam

[snakelegs]

On the contrary - I do comprehend it... but I cannot fully accept it since this is not explained by God in the holy books and it is also not coming from God... in fact - God disproves this trinity concept and it is written in the Qur'an. why would I hold on to a lesser truth if I already found a bigger truth?

i neither comprehend it or accept it. i really don't concern myself with it either.


suppressing one's jealousy is actually good during the times of the Roman empire since they practice wife Sharing... these bloody Romans - present day Italians have a very weak control over their lusts... they want to taste all and so - therefore, it makes sense why religion was customized to suit their very culture.

My point is, Trinity is a concept designed to keep man or humanity under control by the empire. And present day empires are enjoying this.

ouch - that silver font is hard to read. i do not follow this theory of yours, so will make no further comment on it.

I beg to disagree... as a matter of fact, Muslims are not fond of politics and as much as possible - avoid it if they can. If you will check history, Muslim politicians enter politics as a last resort in order to achieve a common good. Check for instance the last coup of Thailand... after establishing a new government, the temporary president who is a Muslim gave the seat to another who is not a Muslim. Muslims are not really comfortable occupying political positions.

Coorection: Monotheism isn't "design for that purpose" .... Monotheism is not designed by man... this is an order from a divine super power. unlike Trinity - man innovated and invented it to serve that purpose.... so again - you are wrong here.

i disagree with you on the above. whenever you have a group of people, no matter how large or small, you will find politics. religion has been used by muslims against muslims, just as it has in christianity.
islam is an entire social system as well as a complete way of life on the individual level. it includes a whole system of governance - how can you say it is not political? do you think the word "policial" is negative?
personally, i am also a monotheist. my point was just that the same argument you use re: the trinity concept, has been used against monotheism.


I would really like to read or hear the testimonies of a former Muslim who became Christian... PLEASE... show me a link because this is actually unheard of for me. i.e., hearsay.

not me! ;D
i wasn't speaking of a muslim becoming a christian. just that i have heard christians say how when they became christian, it completely changed their way of life, just like you were saying about how your way of life changed when you became muslim. common sense tells me that some muslims have no doubt become christians over the course of history. (though i would guess it is more often the other way around.) i have never run in to one, but then, i don't go to christian websites, or anti-islamic websites where these types would probably hang out.


Can you tell the difference between a secular and a religious Christian?... in christianity - religiousity means - going to church every sunday and never missing it. I think you have confused yourself with the secular order and the religious order or the monastic order... As you see, secular order christians or priests for that matter are presupposedly religious since they never miss a mass specially not the sunday Masses. I have lived in the seminary for 2 years and I am still part of the X-Seminarian league of the seminary I came from. I see nothing wrong with christians as a people... and by the way, it was normal and it is no secret for priests to be drinking as well (during off duty hours)... as long as they can perform and officiate mass without any problem - even under the influence of licquor.... Perhaps it also depends on location... where they are. At any rate. This lifestyle is non-existent in a Muslim world. And they don't even have to be an Imam or a Scholar in order to be religious... since Muslims need to pray ceaselessly... aside from 5 times a day, in almost every move they make - there is an equivalent prayer.

another thing... pre marital relationship is also non-existent because Muslims consider this to be Harram... (the Qur'an really did great in placing a criteria for mankind... the concept of Halal and Harraam is good to make Man stay in the right path..). Therefore, No Illegal Sex, No Drugs, No Wine, No Women/ Girlfriends, No Sin! - these elements make the Muslims far from the influence of Satan.... I don't see this in the Religious Christian world.

In the Christian world... a pious Christian also lives this way... but he is surronded by Music, Images, Pictures, Ideas and Concepts which are not sterilized by the Harraam and Halal concepts. therefore, he is still unaware of many things that are actually harmful for his spirit. At any rate, God will be the judge of each one..because only Allah knows what is concealed within the hearts of men.


i do not know any christians very well. of course you will find hypocrites among them - every relgion has its share. but i think that to a practicing christian, his religion means a great deal more than just showing up on sundays. i mean, you could say that to some muslims religiosity means who long are the pants and how long is the beard.
but i think you would find that a christian who was really following his religion would live his life similarly to a muslim. after all, they are your relatives. they too believe that premarital sex is haram, some believe that alcohol is haram too. you seem to be saying that muslims never do immoral acts. surely you can't be serious? last i knew, muslims were human too. you could say that a muslim who is following islam does not indulge in such things, but a christian could no doubt say the same thing. christians do not have halal and haram, but they certainly have the concept of good and evil.
are you saying that a christian cannot live a decent, moral life because he is surrounded by music, images etc etc? that may be your belief, but i would disagree. you can be just as moral with music playing and pictures on the wall as without. and you can be immoral with no music, no images etc etc. these are externals. it is the heart that counts.
if everybody just practiced their religion, the world would certainly look a lot different.
i am not making a case for christianity and can not, but don't mess with me and music or i will jump up and down and get very disagreeable :raging: because i have a Big Big Thing about music - so you do not want to go there!

peace

[NoName55]

Salaam.... "believer shall not fear nor grief..." if you believe you are right - just feel free.

Yeah right!

a small minority of mods on this site are real "geniuses" armed with delete post, give infraction and ban buttons. and they aren't afraid to use them on us. we have lost one account already and what good would come out of getting myself removed too?

at least as things are I can, every now and again, snipe at trolls and google shayukh when one of the good mods is online

"believer shall not fear nor grief..."

do you think that I do not know what is in The Quraan and Sunnah?
Salaam

The only time we use what passes for Holy Bible is, to quote what is wrong, and when we need to show what is Islamic, we turn to Quraan and Sunnah and nothing else

edit: I hate it when people mutilate an Ayah or hadith to fit the occassion

[thirdwatch512]

To believer -

You claim that Timothy wrote Timothy.. Which is wrong. Timothy is Paul's letter to Timothy. It is written by Paul.

You also go on to claim that it is a Gospel.. "Timothy's Gospel."

Then you say that the Comforter is speaking of muhammad, when it clearly says that the Disciples will be alive when the Comforter comes.

Now I hate to be mean, but are you sure you were in the Seminary? Any Christian with the slightest bit of knowledge would not make some of the silliest claims, as you have made.

Or are you a teenager who is a muslim who makes claims to try and act cool, and gain attention?

Or maybe you were just a very faithless "christian" while in the seminary.

Either way, no offense but I really am questioning your level of kwnoeldge on Chrisitianity.. It seems to be very low. Perhaps you SHOULD go to a Seminary and direct your questions to a Monk, and they can answer them for you.

[جوري]

thirdwatch I thought you became an atheist? did you have a change of heart?

[Umar001]

Salaaamualaikum.

I believe you are a speed reader... please check under my avatar brother.

Ops, sorry bro.

God sent prophets among men... in every nation... The Messiah Eassah AS was sent not as a prophet for us... ok, I may agree.... but he is not just a prophet...., therefore, what is his significance to humanity if not? ... I have seen some real Christians who have had a higher degree of iman and deen than most of the Muslims I know, the caring they share for humanity - I haven't seen here in Saudi... moreover, discrimination among Muslims is also apparent. If you fall in line for Salah... an Arab will not close the gap between his feet to an Indian, Nepaly, Bangladeshi or Filipino... Shiek Salah says these gaps are sign that we are letting the devil occupy this line... and we are comitting the sin of discrimination. apparently, it is rampant everywhere... all we have to do is really examine ourselves...

Trust me I know what you mean, I have had it happen to me, but the greatest sin is to, according to Islam, ascribe partners to God, and to lie on GOd, to say GOd has a son or daughter or wife or mother or board of trustee that He has to consult, discrimination and killing is not as bad as saying God has a son or daughter or the likes, let us not use our own standards but God's standards.

I think we agree on alot of the other things, but the bits below:

Agreed... do you know Bukhari personally?... is he one of the Sahabbahs? ... and about the Sahabbahs... what make them different from a modern day revert?... as a matter of fact - the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did not allow the writing of the hadiths during his time... there is a reason for this. I believe I know the reason...

since Man is created weak... he has a tendency to idolize another human being... all he need to do is read a book about him... or watch a movie about him... the more story tellers there are... the more idolized the subject is. and for this reason... the Prophet Rasullullah recomended reading and reciting of the Quran. The ways of the prophet was intended to be passed by word of mouth. However, due to some reason, the writing of hadiths came to place.

The Qur'an also gives a glimpse in the life of the Prophet Muhammad SAW... it is also a clear book. and is also self explanatory... the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT... for me who have read OT and NT my whole life definitely do not find anything unclear with this... in fact, the Qur'an merely illuminated what was false and what is truth in the adulterated Bibles. plain and simple.

It's not just about bukhari, people before him had collections, we don't accept bukhari because of the name, rather because of the checking and high level which it has. Scholars have checked it over and over, what makes him different from any other revert is that he was extremely good a memorising and an extremely honest person, as well as intelligent. There are Muslims like that, and those tend to end up being scholars.

The matter of the prophet not allowing ahadith to be written by him, maybe you should read the articles on load-islam, since the prophet did allow some writings to be written of what he said and done.

Brother, you said, the Qur'an confirms the OT and NT, 'the Quran actually can stand alone. and it does confirm the OT and the NT' please provide the verses, I'd be interested.

The Christian term for Isnaad I believe is the Gift of Discernment. when a person is given this gift... it is easy for him to see truth from falsehood right away... in other words can also be connected with divine guidance. If one holds the truth in his heart and refuses to say it because of fear of anything... then he is as guilty as those hands that altered the Bibles...

I believe it is not merely saying what we want.

Salaam

I think you are mistaken, the Christian term of Gift of Discernment would be a gift of Ilm ul Ghayb or maybe a Karama (type or miracle?) Christians do have a concept of the Isnaad, if one looks at the church fathers, they did quote others to try and provide some sort of isnaad, but their methods do not stand up to scrutany. Also, if we go along with the GIft of Discernment, then one would have to decided who to listen to, since it varies from Christian to Christian.

Your Brother Eesa

[Isambard]

Sooo (skipped last couple of pgs), how again does a letter to Paul, a person than muslim scholars and contemporaries blame for "corrupting" early christian understandings, can possibly predict the coming of Islam?

Seems like alot of squinting and selective reading to me :)

[MadeenJibreel]

:sl:

The Qur'an does confirm the previous Revelations, not the OT and NT though, but Tawrat, Zabuur, Injeel, and Revelations given to Ibrahim (as) and other Messengers of Allahu ta'ala. It confirms that they were Revealed, not that their current contents it the correct one (of those that are still present, but which ones are those, if any?)

[MadeenJibreel]

Sooo (skipped last couple of pgs), how again does a letter to Paul, a person than muslim scholars and contemporaries blame for "corrupting" early christian understandings, can possibly predict the coming of Islam?

Seems like alot of squinting and selective reading to me :)

Paul was a bounty hunter. He hunted down people who believed Jesus is a messenger of Allah. BTW, who said Paul wrote anything of the Bible? I think not even Christians agree on who the real writers of the NT are ......

Muslims never claimed (by my knowledge) that Injeel is the OT. It simply cannot be the same.

[Isambard]

Paul was a bounty hunter. He hunted down people who believed Jesus is a messenger of Allah. BTW, who said Paul wrote anything of the Bible? I think not even Christians agree on who the real writers of the NT are ......

Muslims never claimed (by my knowledge) that Injeel is the OT. It simply cannot be the same.

Its pretty established which letters Paul wrote both by christian and secular scholars. They called the 'Pauline Letters'. There are also psedo-Pauline works that are written claiming to be Paul but for various reasons are generally thought to be written by different authors for different purposes. Timothy is one of them.

So then if you want to argue that Timothy proclaims Islam, then you have to ask how is it a corruption of a corruption (from a Islamic perspective) predicts Islam?

My answer would be it doesnt and folks are just fighting windmills^o)

[MadeenJibreel]

Its pretty established which letters Paul wrote both by christian and secular scholars. They called the 'Pauline Letters'. There are also psedo-Pauline works that are written claiming to be Paul but for various reasons are generally thought to be written by different authors for different purposes. Timothy is one of them.

So then if you want to argue that Timothy proclaims Islam, then you have to ask how is it a corruption of a corruption (from a Islamic perspective) predicts Islam?

My answer would be it doesnt and folks are just fighting windmills^o)

The letters are not important, and I never mentioned Timothy (except in this very sentence). What is important for Muslims is a fact and undeniable truth that the Qur'an tells us that the final Messenger Muhammed (saws) of Allahu ta'ala was forecasted in the previous Revelations, i.e. Injeel (Revelation given to Jesus, peace upon him).

[Isambard]

The letters are not important, and I never mentioned Timothy (except in this very sentence). What is important for Muslims is a fact and undeniable truth that the Qur'an tells us that the final Messenger Muhammed (saws) of Allahu ta'ala was forecasted in the previous Revelations, i.e. Injeel (Revelation given to Jesus, peace upon him).

Thats all well and good by the topic of this thread is How Timothy predicts Islam :P

[MadeenJibreel]

Thats all well and good by the topic of this thread is How Timothy predicts Islam :P

That's all fine and bravisimo, but you find me one thread on internet where ppl don't include related material for discussion.

[Grace Seeker]

This discussion reminds me a song from my childhood:

Round and round the Mulberry Bush,
The monkey chased the weasel....
The monkey stopped to pull up his sock,
Pop! goes the weasel.


My only question is, Is the Christian the monkey and the Muslim the weasel, or vice versa?

[thirdwatch512]

thirdwatch I thought you became an atheist? did you have a change of heart?

I am an atheist. But I still accept a lot of Christian history as being true, such as the very well established fact that Timothy is written by Paul to Timothy (as the introduction of both 1 timothy and 2 timothy, first chapter, first verses say. The last verses of these letters also direct it toward Timothy.) :) anyone who reads these 2 books know that, as the first verses of both say such!!

That is why I question how someone could have "been in the seminary" yet not know something so basic as that.. I mean it is right in front of our eyes!!

Clearly, the person who claimed to be in the Seminary had not read 1 & 2 Timothy. That is all I am saying. :)

[Grace Seeker]

Has anyone been able to find this "Gospel of Timothy" that is mentioned in the opening post? If so, I missed it in reading through the thread.

The passage which originates this thread is quoted as saying

"Cast away demons using my name, heal the sick using my name, Pray to God using my name... but there will come a time that you shall not use my name anymore and you will be praying to God directly."

Believer also testifies that:

I have read the Bible many times and the only book in it that gave me a confirmation that Islam is coming is when Christ mentioned to his disciples...[and then he cites the above quoted passage].

The biggest problem I have with all of this is that there is no Gospel of Timothy in the Bible. Not only can I not find the above passage, I can't find a reading even remotely close to it in the Bible. If, as Believer has testified, that the only book that gives him confirmation that Islam is coming is the passage, then there is nothing in the Bible that gives confirmation of Islam.

Now, what you can read in what (presumably) Paul wrote (presumably) to Timothy is the following admonition, an admonition which I think would do us all well about this time:

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Friends, if we are going to quote from the Bible, be sure that it is in the Bible to begin with. And if one is going to dispute the historicity of the text, don't just accept the word of the first nay-sayer that comes down the pike. There are many who will teach all sorts of things, some right, some true, but most of it half-true. They will lead you astray today from what is actually in the Bible, just as surely as Muslims think that all of Christendom has been led astray by those who wrote their own gospels rather than what many here presume must have been a different injeel delivered by Jesus.

[جوري]

I am an atheist. But I still accept a lot of Christian history as being true

That is very oxymoron(ic). You can't both be an atheist and accept such finite details of christian history, considering that the history you accept is biblical, and the only thing affiriming its own truth. In other words not much outside in the way of 'history books' to support that jesus even existed.

I'll accept Br. Believer's testimony on the account you are so mercurial and don't have solid convictions... this was just an obviously bromide remark on your part, because you hold Islam in contempt and can't accept that one as many before him have left christianity for Islam...

on a more personal note. It really isn't attractive to be in the half way house. Be something all along, and if you are going to make such a drastic change, then stick with it, so you don't come across so hypocritical...

I don't like Tartuffe(s) of any faction!


peace!

[Grace Seeker]

That is very oxymoron(ic). You can't both be an atheist and accept such finite details of christian history, considering that the history you accept is biblical, and the only thing affiriming its own truth. In other words not much outside in the way of 'history books' to support that jesus even existed.

While I don't accept Purest's view of history, I have to admit Thirdwatch, that she has a definite point. Claiming to be a Christian because you accept some of the history as true scores pretty high on the oxymoronic scale. Christianity isn't about history. It is about faith in God through Jesus Christ. If you don't buy into that, then you can be an atheists, an agnostic, you can even be Muslim or a Buddhist, but it is hard to understand how you would describe yourself as a Christian, just because you think that the books in the Bible were written by the people they have been historically identified with. In fact, I know of some Christians who would disagree with you on points such as that, but what makes them a Christian is that they do recognize Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and accept the teachings of the scriptures with regard to Jesus' life, death, and resurrection as true, even if they don't believe the Gospel accounts were actually written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, but others who attached those names to the books.

[Umar001]

I think it's time to close this?

I mean, we had a bad start and it isn't looking up, the topic was going to sink from day one.

Anyone writing about Islam in the Bible should be ready to write a detailed account as to why his/her view is the best view and how come the interpretation changed and so forth, for two reasons:

1. If you don't you'll destroy the whole point of giving dawah, noone is going to listen to a person who has not done his research.

2. You'll do more damage than good, and cause brothers/sisters who are studying in this field more grief than ease.

Eesa

[MadeenJibreel]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

We mainly use the Bible to prove that the Bible (heavily) contradicts itself and to prove that Jesus is not son of God and not God Himself (he can't be both at the same time even by using the Christian logic?).

[MadeenJibreel]

JOHN 15:26: "When the Comforter comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."

Now I don't quite remember the Holy Spirit saying anything: do you? I wouldn't think so. But guess what: it's very clear that Muhammed (saws) did talk about Jesus. And he (saws) was always truthful, even his worst enemy had to admit that.

I somehow fail to see that the verse you posted refers to the Holy Spirit. Another thing is: wasn't the Holy Spirit already there at the time? If so, and if Jesus is really talking about him in that verse, then it doesn't make any sense.

[Keltoi]

Now I don't quite remember the Holy Spirit saying anything: do you? I wouldn't think so. But guess what: it's very clear that Muhammed (saws) did talk about Jesus. And he (saws) was always truthful, even his worst enemy had to admit that.

I somehow fail to see that the verse you posted refers to the Holy Spirit. Another thing is: wasn't the Holy Spirit already there at the time? If so, and if Jesus is really talking about him in that verse, then it doesn't make any sense.

The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God, so of course He or "it" speaks. Alot of people "talked" about Jesus, that doesn't make them the "Comforter" referred to by Christ before His death. You cannot take one verse in isolation of the whole. I could copy and paste verse after verse referring to the Holy Spirit in relationship to God and Christ, but I don't think it would accomplish anything.

As for the Holy Spirit already existing, of course It did. As God has always existed. In the verse you quoted, Christ is referring to the Holy Spirit that will comfort His followers and remind them of His Word. Meaning that while Christ as Man will no longer be among them, the Holy Spirit will always be there.

[Umar001]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

There's a teaching among NT scholars that the Gospels developed in stages. I have seen divisions like this:

1. Historical Preaching of Jesus
2. The Memories of those Historical Events Passed in Oral Tradition
3. The Collection and Editing of the Oral Tradition

Something like that above.

Now, the Gospels according to some scholars, do contain some true historical teachings of Jesus, though they also contain alot of stage two things.

So what Muslims, some Muslims, might say is that the prophecy of the Paraclete is a stage one event which might have been shaped differently in stage two.

Once one studies the compilation of the Gospels, it becomes clear just how open it can be to different possibilities.

[MadeenJibreel]

The Holy Spirit is also known as the Spirit of God, so of course He or "it" speaks. Alot of people "talked" about Jesus, that doesn't make them the "Comforter" referred to by Christ before His death. You cannot take one verse in isolation of the whole. I could copy and paste verse after verse referring to the Holy Spirit in relationship to God and Christ, but I don't think it would accomplish anything.

As for the Holy Spirit already existing, of course It did. As God has always existed. In the verse you quoted, Christ is referring to the Holy Spirit that will comfort His followers and remind them of His Word. Meaning that while Christ as Man will no longer be among them, the Holy Spirit will always be there.

That's not the only verse talking about "the one who comes". Remember when Jews asked Yahya, peace upon him, (John the baptist), 3 questions and the final question was "are you the Prophet?", so they were expecting that Prophet to come, and the 2nd question was "are you the Messiah?". Obviously, he was not, because Jesus was the Messiah (the anointed one, the appointed one, the one sent by God as all other messengers of God).

So who is that Prophet, who is that Comforter? For he will only speak what he hears (what Gabriel tells him to speak, Gabriel was the one responsible for bringing down the Revelation), for he will speak in the Name of God. Every Surah of the Qur'an begins with "(English translation) In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful." I didn't hear the Holy Ghost saying anything like "In the Name of God..." and I don't believe there's anything like (related to Holy Ghost) in the whole Bible.

There are other proofs (and the OT is also not referring to Jesus, but to Muhammed, peace upon them both, in that famous prophecy).

The second part: by the scenario you told us, Jesus goes away, and the Holy Ghost "comforts" the people, but hold on: if Jesus is God, would he not be able to comfort the people himself? Obviously, he cannot, so somebody else must come after him.

[Keltoi]

That's not the only verse talking about "the one who comes". Remember when Jews asked Yahya, peace upon him, (John the baptist), 3 questions and the final question was "are you the Prophet?", so they were expecting that Prophet to come, and the 2nd question was "are you the Messiah?". Obviously, he was not, because Jesus was the Messiah (the anointed one, the appointed one, the one sent by God as all other messengers of God).

So who is that Prophet, who is that Comforter? For he will only speak what he hears (what Gabriel tells him to speak, Gabriel was the one responsible for bringing down the Revelation), for he will speak in the Name of God. Every Surah of the Qur'an begins with "(English translation) In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful." I didn't hear the Holy Ghost saying anything like "In the Name of God..." and I don't believe there's anything like (related to Holy Ghost) in the whole Bible.

There are other proofs (and the OT is also not referring to Jesus, but to Muhammed, peace upon them both, in that famous prophecy).

The second part: by the scenario you told us, Jesus goes away, and the Holy Ghost "comforts" the people, but hold on: if Jesus is God, would he not be able to comfort the people himself? Obviously, he cannot, so somebody else must come after him.

You still don't seem to fully understand what is meant by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit of God, which has always been. Christ's fleshly body is not on Earth any longer, as He returned to God. Therefor it stands to reason that it will be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, that will comfort them now.

I feel that I've actually felt the Holy Spirit working in my life, and I do indeed feel comforted by it. If you wish to see Muhammed as prophecied in the Bible and NT...well, that is your understanding and not mine. Perhaps it would be better to let it stand at that. :D

[Umar001]

Brother MadeenJibreel,

I think what you'd need to do is provide ample evidence that it is probable that the verse is speaking of Muhammad.

There are crucial points that would need to be answered if you supposed that the Prophecy is speaking about Muhammad, you should prepare answering those points and then provide the full writing.

Edit:

What I mean is this brother,

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This writing at chapter 14 claims that the Counselor is the Holy Spirit, now, you'd have to provide evidence that this Holy Spirit here is Muhammad, i.e. that the word Holy Spirit can be shown to be speaking of a Man and so forth, or that the word is not meanto be there, etc.

[MadeenJibreel]

You still don't seem to fully understand what is meant by the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit of God, which has always been. Christ's fleshly body is not on Earth any longer, as He returned to God. Therefor it stands to reason that it will be the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, that will comfort them now.

I feel that I've actually felt the Holy Spirit working in my life, and I do indeed feel comforted by it. If you wish to see Muhammed as prophecied in the Bible and NT...well, that is your understanding and not mine. Perhaps it would be better to let it stand at that. :D

We ppl feel many things, true, but no offense, you've got no proof that the comfort you feel is coming from the "Holy Ghost"...

[Trumble]

We ppl feel many things, true, but no offense, you've got no proof that the comfort you feel is coming from the "Holy Ghost"...

Nobody has ever had any "proof" of any direct religious experience, and that includes any prophet you care to name.

[MadeenJibreel]

Brother MadeenJibreel,

I think what you'd need to do is provide ample evidence that it is probable that the verse is speaking of Muhammad.

There are crucial points that would need to be answered if you supposed that the Prophecy is speaking about Muhammad, you should prepare answering those points and then provide the full writing.

Edit:

What I mean is this brother,

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

This writing at chapter 14 claims that the Counselor is the Holy Spirit, now, you'd have to provide evidence that this Holy Spirit here is Muhammad, i.e. that the word Holy Spirit can be shown to be speaking of a Man and so forth, or that the word is not meanto be there, etc.

:sl: akhi,

nobody can give you a definite proof (but do YOU really need that??), on the other hand, for some folks even if it was written Muhammad Rasulullah in their book itself, they would not believe. I'm not the one who is a pro in a Bible exegesis, and neither is anybody on this forum. I'm giving you my thinking here and a comparison that "this comforter" could be Rasulullah (saws) way before "the so-called Holy Ghost", who is a mystery in Christianity anyway (even though they think of him as part of the 3-in-1 god) and for whom they lack proof big time.

I'll give you proof, inshaAllah, when you bring me the original text of that verse, not english, not italian, etc. but the very original.

[MadeenJibreel]

Nobody has ever had any "proof" of any direct religious experience, and that includes any prophet you care to name.

I had many - but they're personal so I can't share them here.

[Umar001]

:sl: akhi,

nobody can give you a definite proof (but do YOU really need that??), on the other hand, for some folks even if it was written Muhammad Rasulullah in their book itself, they would not believe. I'm not the one who is a pro in a Bible exegesis, and neither is anybody on this forum. I'm giving you my thinking here and a comparison that "this comfortert" could be Rasulullah (saws) way before "the so-called Holy Ghost", who is a mystery in Christianity anyway (even though they think of him as part of the 3-in-1 god) and for whom they lack proof big time.

I'll give you proof, inshaAllah, when you bring me the original text of that verse, not english, not italian, etc. but the very original.

Wa Aleykum Salam Akhi,

But akhi, when we say such and such is true we should bring evidence to a certain degree, like if a person came up to me and challenged my interpretation of a Qur'anic verse he would have to bring evidence, like someone gave me once an interpretation of a verse which said something like Fear Allah and follow me, and he said see the Prophet here is warning against Allah saying 'Fear Allah, he will lead you astray' and 'follow me I will guide you' this might sound ridiculous, so when we bring something out of the norm we bring evidence bro.

So for example, how you would tackle the Holy Spirit issue is that you could mention that this saying of Jesus was changed over a period of time to speak about the Holy Spirit in the Oral Tradition, this would be cool enough.

If I am not mistaken, I did not want to mention this as of yet, but I read a while ago from a Christian source that this addition of 'the Holy Spirit' is either missing from some manuscripts or is thought to be a natural insertion to the text. But I don't have the evidence so I cant quote it now.

But this is what I mean bro, to a Christian, you will sound like your trying to make evidence out of nothing, which can ruin dawah.

Your brother

Eesa

[MadeenJibreel]

Wa Aleykum Salam Akhi,

But akhi, when we say such and such is true we should bring evidence to a certain degree, like if a person came up to me and challenged my interpretation of a Qur'anic verse he would have to bring evidence, like someone gave me once an interpretation of a verse which said something like Fear Allah and follow me, and he said see the Prophet here is warning against Allah saying 'Fear Allah, he will lead you astray' and 'follow me I will guide you' this might sound ridiculous, so when we bring something out of the norm we bring evidence bro.

So for example, how you would tackle the Holy Spirit issue is that you could mention that this saying of Jesus was changed over a period of time to speak about the Holy Spirit in the Oral Tradition, this would be cool enough.

If I am not mistaken, I did not want to mention this as of yet, but I read a while ago from a Christian source that this addition of 'the Holy Spirit' is either missing from some manuscripts or is thought to be a natural insertion to the text. But I don't have the evidence so I cant quote it now.

But this is what I mean bro, to a Christian, you will sound like your trying to make evidence out of nothing, which can ruin dawah.

Your brother

Eesa

:w:

I actually did give evidence based on logical reasoning:
- the Holy Ghost never speaks, so he can't be the Comforter (not the speaking one at least)
- the Comforter will speak in the Name of God
- he will speak what he hears (not what he thinks to speak)
- he will come after Jesus departs
- etc.

But here's some stuff more detailed:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the Old Testament


The Qur’an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospel".

1.
MUHAMMAD (PBUH) PROPHESISED IN THE BOOK OF DEUTERONOMY:



Almighty God speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and I will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

The Christians say that this prophecy refers to Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was like Moses (pbuh). Moses (pbuh) was a Jew, as well as Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew. Moses (pbuh) was a Prophet and Jesus (pbuh) was also a Prophet.

If these two are the only criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after
Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will
fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh):

i)


Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii)
Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii)
Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158)



Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

iv)
Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v)
Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv)
Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

2.
It is Mentioned in the book of Deuteronomy chapter 18:19



"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not harken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

3.
Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:



It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

4.
prophet Muhammad (pbuh) mentioned by name in the old testament:



Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters
of Jerusalem."

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect. Similarely im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad
(pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.


Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the New Testament

Al-Qur'an Chapter 61 Verse 6:

"And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said, 'O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me and giving glad tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed.' But when he came to them with clear signs, they said, 'This is evident sorcery!' "

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians.

1.
John chapter 14 verse 16:
"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."

2.
Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which
proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

3.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 7:



"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not
come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the
Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.
Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the
Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.

Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realise
that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the
Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet
Muhammad (pbuh).

4.
Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is
come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

[Grace Seeker]

We mainly use the Bible to prove that the Bible (heavily) contradicts itself and to prove that Jesus is not son of God and not God Himself (he can't be both at the same time even by using the Christian logic?).

If that is what you use the Bible for, then I suggest that you stop using it. Because while you may not understand it, 2000 years of history show that it is understood "by Christian logic" to testify to the very things that you say that it disproves. To think that you are going to change 2000 years of history by your form of logic is to be so ego-centric in your view of the world that it means you obviously cannot see what others see. It is thus going to be your own spiritual myopica that is what it ultimately pointed out, not the contradictions or other things that you think are there, but truly exist only in your own mind and not in reality.

[snakelegs]

I had many - but they're personal so I can't share them here.

i have too. but trumble has a point.
science is a system which analyzes things that can be proven.
religion is a system that requires no proof. (this does not imply that it is false (though some like to insinuate this).
it is just a different system.

[Grace Seeker]

I'm not the one who is a pro in a Bible exegesis, and neither is anybody on this forum.

Actually, I am. I have been trained in biblical exegesis. I have an M. Div. from an acredited seminary. And I make my living as a pastor where one of my prime responsibilities to provide proper biblical exegesis to the people in my congregation.

We ppl feel many things, true, but no offense, you've got no proof that the comfort you feel is coming from the "Holy Ghost"...

MadeenJibreel, I feel for you. The question you are asking does not even have any bearing upon the issue before us in the text.

I'm guessing that either (a) English is not your first language, (b) you are not a particularly educated in linguistics nor understand grammar very well (though you probably do speak more than one language, which is good), (c) you are very young and easily excited about things have a great deal of passion. None of this is to speak poorly of you. It is not to say that you are a bad person, or lacking in any personal character trait, in fact some of them such, as passion, are quite commendable. But I think it is hard for you to slow down enough to take a look at the actual evidence, the facts and the text to truly understand what others are saying, or to even see what it actually does say for yourself.

The tern, "the Comforter" is a translation of a Greek word, "paracletos". So other translations, also appropriate because as you must be familiar with rarely are there word-for-word translations between any two languages, one could render this same word as "Counselor", "Helper", "Advocate". All of those ideas are tied up in the word "paracletos". But the key to understand who/what this word "paracletos" refers to is that Jesus goes on in several specific places to say, "the paracletos, the Holy Spirit". That is just as if one were to say, "the Prophet, Muhammaed (pbuh)". The use of the comma in the phrase is a tool in English grammar to tell us who the Prophet is that the speaker is referring to. It is to a very specific prophet. Without the identification one might think of some other prophet. For instance, if speaking to a Mormon, they might just automatically think you were talking about Joseph Smith, who is their prophet. And likewise, if Jesus had not go one to identify who this Comforter was, we could possibily be confused thinking of many other individuals who comfort us. I might think of my Mom. You might think of Muhammad, and someone else might think of their boyfriend or girlfriend. So, to keep that from happening Jesus uses a particular grammatical construction by which he tells us who it is that he has identified as the "paracletos", and when we apply that to these passages Jesus tells us that the "paracletos" is no other than the Holy Spirit. It is NOT Muhammad, and those who think that they can find that in this passage are, in my opinion, grasping at straws.

The Sprit of Truth, spoken about in this prophecy referes to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

No. It doesn't. Please, let the text speak for itself. If you do, I think you will see that it does not even anticipate Muhammad, let alone imply that the Spirit of Truth is him. Here is just one of the things that Jesus tells his disciples about this "Spirit of Truth" he says that "he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:17). Now I have never heard it asserted that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived with and was in any of Jesus disciples. Yet the Spirit of Truth does. Hence the Prophet Muhammad, on that alone, is excluded from being the one Jesus is speaking of when he refers to the "Spirit of Truth".

[moslima]

If that is what you use the Bible for, then I suggest that you stop using it. Because while you may not understand it, 2000 years of history show that it is understood "by Christian logic" to testify to the very things that you say that it disproves. To think that you are going to change 2000 years of history by your form of logic is to be so ego-centric in your view of the world that it means you obviously cannot see what others see. It is thus going to be your own spiritual myopica that is what it ultimately pointed out, not the contradictions or other things that you think are there, but truly exist only in your own mind and not in reality.

If you ask an average Christian about trinity, they will tell you that they don't understand it, if you ask them why you do so and so, you will not get a satisfying answer. WIll you really believe in what your priest says to you? Without even verifying his truthfulness? Why is it that the official Church has so many definitions in contradiction with the Bible?
Say...original sin?
Say...God and son of God? I know you tried to justify this one, but you failed. Say...mother of God? This means God has grandfather and grandmother or...?
Say...praying to God, Jesus and/or the Holy Ghost or even Mary for that matter?
Say...a confession? And not directly asking God to forgive you? (like you gotta go to a confession to somebody who perhaps has more sins on his back that you?)
Say...Jesus' name not present in the OT?
Say...Moses and other prophets from the OT never ever speak of Jesus?
Say...The 1st Commandment is God is One, yet 2000 of history says three? All of the sudden it's three not one, even though the Bible denies the trinity.
Say...Jesus doesn't know everything, yet 2000 of history still believes he is God?
Say...Jesus had needs, so he depended on things, surely God the Creator does not depend on His creations.
Say...Jesus was prostrating to God (read the Bible), yet Christians today do not feel like praying like he did? Who is a better example of God's servant - Jesus or the priests???

If you want me to continue the list, I will inshaAllah. I somehow do feel the questions from my list will not be answered. But that I do understand. It's hard to resolve all the paradoxes. In that there's many proofs that people changed what God has sent through Jesus, peace upon him.

[moslima]

Actually, I am. I have been trained in biblical exegesis. I have an M. Div. from an acredited seminary. And I make my living as a pastor where one of my prime responsibilities to provide proper biblical exegesis to the people in my congregation.



MadeenJibreel, I feel for you. The question you are asking does not even have any bearing upon the issue before us in the text.

I'm guessing that either (a) English is not your first language, (b) you are not a particularly educated in linguistics nor understand grammar very well (though you probably do speak more than one language, which is good), (c) you are very young and easily excited about things have a great deal of passion. None of this is to speak poorly of you. It is not to say that you are a bad person, or lacking in any personal character trait, in fact some of them such, as passion, are quite commendable. But I think it is hard for you to slow down enough to take a look at the actual evidence, the facts and the text to truly understand what others are saying, or to even see what it actually does say for yourself.

The tern, "the Comforter" is a translation of a Greek word, "paracletos". So other translations, also appropriate because as you must be familiar with rarely are there word-for-word translations between any two languages, one could render this same word as "Counselor", "Helper", "Advocate". All of those ideas are tied up in the word "paracletos". But the key to understand who/what this word "paracletos" refers to is that Jesus goes on in several specific places to say, "the paracletos, the Holy Spirit". That is just as if one were to say, "the Prophet, Muhammaed (pbuh)". The use of the comma in the phrase is a tool in English grammar to tell us who the Prophet is that the speaker is referring to. It is to a very specific prophet. Without the identification one might think of some other prophet. For instance, if speaking to a Mormon, they might just automatically think you were talking about Joseph Smith, who is their prophet. And likewise, if Jesus had not go one to identify who this Comforter was, we could possibily be confused thinking of many other individuals who comfort us. I might think of my Mom. You might think of Muhammad, and someone else might think of their boyfriend or girlfriend. So, to keep that from happening Jesus uses a particular grammatical construction by which he tells us who it is that he has identified as the "paracletos", and when we apply that to these passages Jesus tells us that the "paracletos" is no other than the Holy Spirit. It is NOT Muhammad, and those who think that they can find that in this passage are, in my opinion, grasping at straws.

No. It doesn't. Please, let the text speak for itself. If you do, I think you will see that it does not even anticipate Muhammad, let alone imply that the Spirit of Truth is him. Here is just one of the things that Jesus tells his disciples about this "Spirit of Truth" he says that "he lives with you and will be in you" (John 14:17). Now I have never heard it asserted that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived with and was in any of Jesus disciples. Yet the Spirit of Truth does. Hence the Prophet Muhammad, on that alone, is excluded from being the one Jesus is speaking of when he refers to the "Spirit of Truth".

necu ni pokusati odgovoriti na vrijedjanje

[moslima]

...

[Grace Seeker]

If you ask an average Christian about trinity, they will tell you that they don't understand it, if you ask them why you do so and so, you will not get a satisfying answer.

Well, tomorrow I will see a number of "average" Christians. I will ask them and see if they tell me that they don't understand. I suspect they understand more than you give them credit for. You just don't like their understanding and don't appreciate the explanations that they give, because you have yet to understand as they do.

[YusufNoor]

Well, tomorrow I will see a number of "average" Christians. I will ask them and see if they tell me that they don't understand. I suspect they understand more than you give them credit for. You just don't like their understanding and don't appreciate the explanations that they give, because you have yet to understand as they do.

:sl:

Greetings of Peace Brother Gene,

i see that "we" have been sorely testing your patiernce resently, my apologies.

you DO have a couple of posts that i would like reply to. ahem, this being one of them.

you recently stated your opinion about Christmas being a "religious" holiday, me being a heretic via JW's and Herbert W.Armstrong, we know my position as well.

that out of the way, i am going to challenge your position that the folks that come to your service are "average" Christians. IF you have folks that attend service EVERY WEEK, then i would mark them as better than average! MUCH BETTER actually. similarly, Muslims pray 5 times a day, but not many brothers pray 5 times a day AT THE MASJID! better than average, well not so sure as that's what i try to do and i doubt that i'm better than average...

with this in mind, i suggest that the "AVERAGE" Christian probably goes to "church" twice a year, Easter and Christmas with the odd wedding or funeral tossed in. that being said, i would suggest that instead of asking your "better than average Christians" at service today, take you and some of "your flock" and head to the shopping malls. at random, ask the folks there if they are "Christian" and those that respond affirmatively, ask THEM to explain the trinity!

THAT would give you a better idea of what the "average" Christian understands about the trinity! and i'm pretty sure it would prove the Muslim point of view on this one!

:w:

[Umar001]

:w:

I actually did give evidence based on logical reasoning:
- the Holy Ghost never speaks, so he can't be the Comforter (not the speaking one at least)
- the Comforter will speak in the Name of God
- he will speak what he hears (not what he thinks to speak)
- he will come after Jesus departs
- etc.

I understand that brother, but what I am saying is, a person provides evidence for his view, another person has a different view provides evidence for his view. Now, if both views are about the same, or if the person which has the weaker view comes forward, this person should then show why the other person's view is not acceptable.

So for example, the text of the Bible clearly says this paraclete is the Holy Spirit, now, you need to show why this is not so, you need to show that the Bible is wrong in saying that this person is the Holy Spirit.

So you have put forth evidence, the Holy Ghost never speaks, so he can't be the Comforter (not the speaking one at least), to logically show why the Holy Spirit can't be the paraclete, but you have to now show evidence to discredit the Bible for saying that the Holy Spirit is, because the Bible does identify him as that.

[MadeenJibreel]

I understand that brother, but what I am saying is, a person provides evidence for his view, another person has a different view provides evidence for his view. Now, if both views are about the same, or if the person which has the weaker view comes forward, this person should then show why the other person's view is not acceptable.

So for example, the text of the Bible clearly says this paraclete is the Holy Spirit, now, you need to show why this is not so, you need to show that the Bible is wrong in saying that this person is the Holy Spirit.

So you have put forth evidence, the Holy Ghost never speaks, so he can't be the Comforter (not the speaking one at least), to logically show why the Holy Spirit can't be the paraclete, but you have to now show evidence to discredit the Bible for saying that the Holy Spirit is, because the Bible does identify him as that.

How about this?
Christians say that God is omnipresent (pls correct me if I'm wrong).
Next: they say "Holy Ghost/Comforter" will come after Jesus departs, but:
1. He's already there with Jesus and
2. He has nowhere to go, since they say "he is omnipresent".

If it would be possible that the one who is omnipresent could go and come back etc. then I don't see how? If you're everywhere, then what exactly is means "he will come back after Jesus is gone"??

Am I missing something from logic they didn't teach me in school?? Probably.

[Whatsthepoint]

Perhaps they believe he(?) is omnipresent, but we, humans, can't see him and when he comes, he will merely show/reveal himself...

[Umar001]

How about this?
Christians say that God is omnipresent (pls correct me if I'm wrong).
Next: they say "Holy Ghost/Comforter" will come after Jesus departs, but:
1. He's already there with Jesus and
2. He has nowhere to go, since they say "he is omnipresent".

If it would be possible that the one who is omnipresent could go and come back etc. then I don't see how? If you're everywhere, then what exactly is means "he will come back after Jesus is gone"??

Am I missing something from logic they didn't teach me in school?? Probably.

Akhi, what this will show is that there is something wrong with the understanding of the author. But it does not show that it is not the Holy Spirit, this can be used as supporiting evidence. But not evidence to show that the words Holy Spirit do not mean Holy Spirit.

What a Christian might tell you is that, we are mere mortal and cannot understand and infinate God. I mean the trinity is just as hard of a concept bro.

[MadeenJibreel]

Akhi, what this will show is that there is something wrong with the understanding of the author. But it does not show that it is not the Holy Spirit, this can be used as supporiting evidence. But not evidence to show that the words Holy Spirit do not mean Holy Spirit.

What a Christian might tell you is that, we are mere mortal and cannot understand and infinate God. I mean the trinity is just as hard of a concept bro.

Look, simple and straightforward - are you putting me on trials here? Coz if u are, then back off. It seems like you're helping them...clarify your stance.

[Umar001]

Am telling you what a Christian will tell you. Those that I've come across anyway.

[MadeenJibreel]

Am telling you what a Christian will tell you. Those that I've come across anyway.

I'm not getting you akhi - we all have a bit different understanding of the things, so let Christians speak for themselves. Some of them still owe me some answers.
I hope they're not avoiding to answer.

[Umar001]

Aite bro, didn't mean to jump in, sorry.

Salam Aleykum Akhi

[Grace Seeker]

:sl:

Greetings of Peace Brother Gene,

i see that "we" have been sorely testing your patiernce resently, my apologies.

you DO have a couple of posts that i would like reply to. ahem, this being one of them.

you recently stated your opinion about Christmas being a "religious" holiday, me being a heretic via JW's and Herbert W.Armstrong, we know my position as well.

that out of the way, i am going to challenge your position that the folks that come to your service are "average" Christians. IF you have folks that attend service EVERY WEEK, then i would mark them as better than average! MUCH BETTER actually. similarly, Muslims pray 5 times a day, but not many brothers pray 5 times a day AT THE MASJID! better than average, well not so sure as that's what i try to do and i doubt that i'm better than average...

with this in mind, i suggest that the "AVERAGE" Christian probably goes to "church" twice a year, Easter and Christmas with the odd wedding or funeral tossed in. that being said, i would suggest that instead of asking your "better than average Christians" at service today, take you and some of "your flock" and head to the shopping malls. at random, ask the folks there if they are "Christian" and those that respond affirmatively, ask THEM to explain the trinity!

THAT would give you a better idea of what the "average" Christian understands about the trinity! and i'm pretty sure it would prove the Muslim point of view on this one!

:w:

Well, it's good that you defined "average", for we are indeed thinking of two discreetly different groups of people.

The group you are talking about that goes to church twice a year, we call "C & E" Christians. Another word that might describe them is nominal Christians, that is Christian in name only. And that probably because they were born in a culture where Christianity was the dominant religion. My guess is that you're right, few of these people could articulate much, if anything, regarding the Christian faith. I'm not sure what that proves. Ask people who haven't been educated in a particular school of belief to articulate those beliefs and find out that they can't do it convincingly. That's sort of what I would expect. Most of them probably know the story of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny better than of Jesus because that's what the culture they live in teaches. Since they attend to all of the services involving those figures more regularly than they do to that which involves Christ, maybe, instead of Christain, we should call them SantaBunnyians?:D

[MadeenJibreel]

How about this?
Christians say that God is omnipresent (pls correct me if I'm wrong).
Next: they say "Holy Ghost/Comforter" will come after Jesus departs, but:
1. He's already there with Jesus and
2. He has nowhere to go, since they say "he is omnipresent".

If it would be possible that the one who is omnipresent could go and come back etc. then I don't see how? If you're everywhere, then what exactly it means "he will come back after Jesus is gone"??

[Keltoi]

How about this?
Christians say that God is omnipresent (pls correct me if I'm wrong).
Next: they say "Holy Ghost/Comforter" will come after Jesus departs, but:
1. He's already there with Jesus and
2. He has nowhere to go, since they say "he is omnipresent".

If it would be possible that the one who is omnipresent could go and come back etc. then I don't see how? If you're everywhere, then what exactly it means "he will come back after Jesus is gone"??

Christ didn't say the Holy Spirit would "come back", He said the Holy Spirit would be sent to them as a Comforter after He is gone. To remind His followers of all that He had said and taught. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit went anywhere or has to "physically" travel anywhere. It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

[MadeenJibreel]

Christ didn't say the Holy Spirit would "come back", He said the Holy Spirit would be sent to them as a Comforter after He is gone. To remind His followers of all that He had said and taught. That doesn't mean the Holy Spirit went anywhere or has to "physically" travel anywhere. It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

You're explanation is full of contradictions now:

- if the Holy Ghost leaves the scene with departure of Jesus, that means he's moving, going, ...
- if however, "he never leaves them", then how can he "come back" (or how can he be "sent back" to them)? where from will he "be sent back"?

It was simply a reminder ... He is always with them

Either you got it wrong or the Bible. If he's always with them, how can he be sent back to them? Anyway, if Holy Ghost is God as Christians think, and if Christians think God is omnipresent, then going back-forth makes no sense, correct?

[Keltoi]

You're explanation is full of contradictions now:

- if the Holy Ghost leaves the scene with departure of Jesus, that means he's moving, going, ...
- if however, "he never leaves them", then how can he "come back" (or how can he be "sent back" to them)? where from will he "be sent back"?



Either you got it wrong or the Bible. If he's always with them, how can he be sent back to them? Anyway, if Holy Ghost is God as Christians think, and if Christians think God is omnipresent, then going back-forth makes no sense, correct?

Who said the Holy Spirit leaves the scene with the departure of Jesus? Perhaps another way of understanding it would be this: Think of "sent" as not where the Holy Spirit is going, but where it comes from...which is God. I think you are too hung up on the coming and going aspect, when that isn't even the point. Christ is talking to His followers, men and women, and to comfort them when His body is gone, He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them. This is what happens when you get hung up on semantics.

[MadeenJibreel]

Who said the Holy Spirit leaves the scene with the departure of Jesus? Perhaps another way of understanding it would be this: Think of "sent" as not where the Holy Spirit is going, but where it comes from...which is God. I think you are too hung up on the coming and going aspect, when that isn't even the point. Christ is talking to His followers, men and women, and to comfort them when His body is gone, He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them. This is what happens when you get hung up on semantics.

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

[Keltoi]

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

I don't know about "official", but that is what I have been taught by the pastors and ministers in my life. By "reminder", I mean that Christ taught His followers that the Holy Spirit, a blessing from God, will be with those who accept Him as Lord and Savior. That blessing is the Holy Spirit. As for the use of the word "sent", I already explained that it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit "physically" traveling anywhere. It is a blessing upon those who follow Christ. I'm not sure how I can explain this to your satisfaction...if that is even possible.

[Grace Seeker]

Well how do you expect me to understand that passage, as first you said this:

It was simply a reminder to His followers that He is always with them.

Then you claimed this is what happens:

He promises them that the Holy Spirit will be "sent" to them, meaning a blessing from God will be with them.

And BTW, is that your explanation or the official one from the Bible scholars?

You're explanation is full of contradictions now:

- if the Holy Ghost leaves the scene with departure of Jesus, that means he's moving, going, ...
- if however, "he never leaves them", then how can he "come back" (or how can he be "sent back" to them)? where from will he "be sent back"?



Either you got it wrong or the Bible. If he's always with them, how can he be sent back to them? Anyway, if Holy Ghost is God as Christians think, and if Christians think God is omnipresent, then going back-forth makes no sense, correct?

You are thinking way to physically, as if the Holy Spirit was made out of atoms and molecules, a substance that has physical properties and thus can only occupy one given set of space at a given moment in time. Such limitation are not placed on the Holy Spirit.

A river is said to flow from the mountains to the sea. Does that mean that the river actually leaves the mountains and no longer exists there when it enters the sea? The wind blows, we feel its movement, but we don't know where it comes from or where it goes. (Paraphrasing Jesus) If you fail to understand these simply things of the physical world, how can you expect to understand the things of God?

The Spirit is sent from the Father, but that does not mean that the Spirit leaves the Father any more than that the river leaves the mountains. The Spirit was present in the beginning, because as one aspect of who God is, the Spirit is always present.

If you like, I can set aside a thread for teaching about the Spirit, and the Trinity? I've never done that here in LI simply because I don't think that is what the purpose of this forum community is. I don't think that LI wants people "teaching" Christianity. But your questions show that you are struggling with understanding even some of the rudimentary concepts of our faith, and I don't know how to address all of them at once, for every answer produces 5 more questions. That's understandable, but it might be easier just to start at the beginning. However, it would require that you approach it as a time to actually learn what we think, not as a time to be constantly trying to figure out a refutation each step of the way. There will be plenty of time for that afterward.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, how did we get a thread with my name attached to it? :embarrass
Should I take this as some sort of special honor? :ooh:

[MadeenJibreel]

You are thinking way to physically, as if the Holy Spirit was made out of atoms and molecules, a substance that has physical properties and thus can only occupy one given set of space at a given moment in time. Such limitation are not placed on the Holy Spirit.

A river is said to flow from the mountains to the sea. Does that mean that the river actually leaves the mountains and no longer exists there when it enters the sea? The wind blows, we feel its movement, but we don't know where it comes from or where it goes. (Paraphrasing Jesus) If you fail to understand these simply things of the physical world, how can you expect to understand the things of God?

The Spirit is sent from the Father, but that does not mean that the Spirit leaves the Father any more than that the river leaves the mountains. The Spirit was present in the beginning, because as one aspect of who God is, the Spirit is always present.

If you like, I can set aside a thread for teaching about the Spirit, and the Trinity? I've never done that here in LI simply because I don't think that is what the purpose of this forum community is. I don't think that LI wants people "teaching" Christianity. But your questions show that you are struggling with understanding even some of the rudimentary concepts of our faith, and I don't know how to address all of them at once, for every answer produces 5 more questions. That's understandable, but it might be easier just to start at the beginning. However, it would require that you approach it as a time to actually learn what we think, not as a time to be constantly trying to figure out a refutation each step of the way. There will be plenty of time for that afterward.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, how did we get a thread with my name attached to it? :embarrass
Should I take this as some sort of special honor? :ooh:

Tell me: if Spirit does not have physical form (I agree here!), then what form he has? In fact, does he even have a form? So how can you expect people to believe Jesus was God, if you don't even know this "substance"?
Next: do you claim God is everywhere? Is he occupying the space? If yes, then in what form/substance? If still yes, would you say God is in places of dirt and similar? May He forgive me, but I'm referring to something you think God is, when He is not.

[MadeenJibreel]

Never ever mind Grace Seeker, I just caught your view on this in another thread:

You claim:
But I believe that this was spirit, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are also spirit.

So you do claim God has a similarity to something? And also that God is a spirit? A form? A substance? Is so, is this substance in me, you, everywhere? In 4-D time-space continuum or in some kinda higher world? If yes, the God does occupy "something" (according to your claims), be it 4-D world, or X-D whatever the X stands for.

True or false?

PS You're literally making God dependent on "something" whatever that something is, so you are limited God to His own creations. How's that?

PS-2 Does the Bible say that The Father (as you call him) is the spirit?

[Grace Seeker]

Never ever mind Grace Seeker, I just caught your view on this in another thread:

You claim:
But I believe that this was spirit, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are also spirit.

So you do claim God has a similarity to something? And also that God is a spirit? A form? A substance? Is so, is this substance in me, you, everywhere? In 4-D time-space continuum or in some kinda higher world? If yes, the God does occupy "something" (according to your claims), be it 4-D world, or X-D whatever the X stands for.

True or false?

False.

Get ready for a metaphysical construct: God does not occupy any "something". Rather, all things exist in him.

PS You're literally making God dependent on "something" whatever that something is, so you are limited God to His own creations. How's that?

See what I just said.

PS-2 Does the Bible say that The Father (as you call him) is the spirit?

No. The Father and the Spirit are one being, but two different persons. What the Bible says is: "God is spirit."

[MadeenJibreel]

False.

Get ready for a metaphysical construct: God does not occupy any "something". Rather, all things exist in him.

OK, so that's even worse then I imagined what you believe in: before the creation, creations were not "in" God, after the creation - creations are "in" God? Are you saying "they are part of Him"? Like "we are living in God", "everything exist in God", etc...?

See what I just said.

No. The Father and the Spirit are one being, but two different persons. What the Bible says is: "God is spirit."

So who is in charge there? The Father? The Son? The Holy Ghost? 3 different persons...do they disagree? Ever? Can you pray to only one? Say to Holy Ghost?

[Grace Seeker]

OK, so that's even worse then I imagined what you believe in: before the creation, creations were not "in" God, after the creation - creations are "in" God? Are you saying "they are part of Him"? Like "we are living in God", "everything exist in God", etc...?

I think I just addressed this in one of the other threads we are both in.

So who is in charge there? The Father? The Son? The Holy Ghost? 3 different persons...do they disagree? Ever? Can you pray to only one? Say to Holy Ghost?

I don't know who is "in charge". I'm not sure that the concept of being "in charge" is applicable. I do know that the Son submits to the Father and that the Father and the Son together send the Holy Spirit. But if that answer does not suffice, I'll have to give it some more study and thought to provide a complete reply.

No, I don't believe they ever disagree. Though in his eathly experience, Jesus did not possess both a human will in addition to a divine will, but we see in his life that he did surrender that human will over totally to the divine will. Likewise, Jesus did not possess the same knowledge that the Father had and lived in full dependence on the Father.

Yes, praying to any one is the same as praying to all. That is why we think it silly to object to the idea of praying to Jesus, because that is nothing more and nothing less than simply praying to the one and only God. So, Christians can and do pray in, through, by, and to the Holy Spirit. Indeed when we don't know what or how to pray, the Spirit even intercedes for us, helping us to pray.

[MadeenJibreel]

I don't know who is "in charge". I'm not sure that the concept of being "in charge" is applicable. I do know that the Son submits to the Father and that the Father and the Son together send the Holy Spirit. But if that answer does not suffice, I'll have to give it some more study and thought to provide a complete reply.

No, I don't believe they ever disagree. Though in his eathly experience, Jesus did not possess both a human will in addition to a divine will, but we see in his life that he did surrender that human will over totally to the divine will. Likewise, Jesus did not possess the same knowledge that the Father had and lived in full dependence on the Father.

I think this is very important topic. See, when Christians say "all in the trinity are equal", and yet, the Son submits to the will of the Father (as you say) somehow raises another question. Another thing is that, if the Son and the Father together send the Holy Spirit, it feels like sending an angel rather than God sending God? I mean no Christian can say, i.e. "God sends Himself" for that simply doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if Holy Ghost really is sent then it appears that he submits to the will of the Son and the Father. Earlier we concluded that the Son submits to the will of the Father, now we have both Holy Ghost submitting to the Father just the same as the Son. The Bible tells us about the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. It says that the Father's Will will be done, not Son's will nor the will of the Holy Ghost.

Now we clearly see that it's the Father in control here. Or else we would be denying the Bible. I hope you can agree with me on this.

Another thing I have a problem with is that (in)famous (alleged) saying of Jesus (when allegedly being on the cross): ...why have you forsaken me?

Surely this alludes going against the Will of the Father. It also shows that Jesus didn't have all the answers (Jesus from the Bible, which doesn't mean the historical Jesus, messenger of Allah). So be it in a human body, form and shape or any other, Jesus is simply not equal to God, but that's exactly what the Christian definition is explicit about.

Somebody here is going against the explicit verses of the Bible and I feel it ain't the Muslims.

[Grace Seeker]

I think this is very important topic. See, when Christians say "all in the trinity are equal", and yet, the Son submits to the will of the Father (as you say) somehow raises another question. Another thing is that, if the Son and the Father together send the Holy Spirit, it feels like sending an angel rather than God sending God? I mean no Christian can say, i.e. "God sends Himself" for that simply doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if Holy Ghost really is sent then it appears that he submits to the will of the Son and the Father. Earlier we concluded that the Son submits to the will of the Father, now we have both Holy Ghost submitting to the Father just the same as the Son. The Bible tells us about the prayer that Jesus taught his disciples. It says that the Father's Will will be done, not Son's will nor the will of the Holy Ghost.

Now we clearly see that it's the Father in control here. Or else we would be denying the Bible. I hope you can agree with me on this.

Another thing I have a problem with is that (in)famous (alleged) saying of Jesus (when allegedly being on the cross): ...why have you forsaken me?

Surely this alludes going against the Will of the Father. It also shows that Jesus didn't have all the answers (Jesus from the Bible, which doesn't mean the historical Jesus, messenger of Allah). So be it in a human body, form and shape or any other, Jesus is simply not equal to God, but that's exactly what the Christian definition is explicit about.

Somebody here is going against the explicit verses of the Bible and I feel it ain't the Muslims.

As I said, I wasn't prepared to answer the question about being "in charge", or what you now term as "control". There is a mutual submission going on. That's going to be foreign to Muslim ways of thinking, but that is what i see not the answer you have given that you are wanting me to affirm.

I understand that you feel that someone is going against what the Bible teaches. I won't deny that you feel that way. I won't deny that it can be confusing at time. But I also won't deny that Jesus is God just because it doesn't feel right to some human mind when that is what I understand that the in fact Bible does teach, even if you disagree with my reading of it.

Lastly, you've already indicated that the Spirit couldn't be an angel because no angel would be spoken of as living "with you and will be in you".

Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? (1 Corinthians 3:16)

[Mateen]

Message for muslims- Isnt Bible false according to you? If so, why you use it :).

Muslims do not need Bible for any proof as we believe the original message has been lost and replaced by faslehood. Since Christians believe in bible this referance has been given FOR Christians and NOT for muslims.

Its just a food for thought for Christians.

For us Quran is the Furqhan, meaning the criterion to judge right and wrong.

Wassalam.