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Michael
10-03-2007, 03:35 AM
I was reading the Muhsin Khan translation of the Qur'an yesterday, and it included a certain hadith that refers to science. The science it doesn't seem to be accurate.

Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Hadith no. 275

Narrated Anas: When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

This is basically saying that if the man has his orgasm first during sexual intercourse, the child will look like him, and if the woman has her orgasm first, then the child will look like her. Modern science has proven that it is genetics that determine whom the child looks like.

Can anyone here help me with this? Especially those who can read the hadith in the original Arabic.
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NoName55
10-03-2007, 04:03 AM
^^ why could you not PM one of us about these things so that you can be directed to a real life Scholar or ask at the Mosque (if it exists) where you supposed to have reverted to Islam?

getting questions from islamwatch or other anti-Muslim sites is not a great Idea for a Muslim. They rely mostly on the work done on Islam by the Orientalists or tales told by the European travelers of the past centuries. In some cases, books like Thousand and One Nights and The Perfumed Garden or stories like aladin, ali baba and sinbad are used to explain Islam

I am sure you know very well that this site is populated by kids and with the exception of one or two, also moderated by kids. The only answers you can expect to get are from googlers who may not even understand what they copy/paste.

In light of all the above, there is only one motive for posting these questions here, and it ain't the desire to learn!!!
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Michael
10-03-2007, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
^^ why could you not PM one of us about these things so that you can be directed to a real life Scholar or ask at the Mosque (if it exists) where you supposed to have reverted to Islam?
I asked the sheikh at the mosque this question, but he said that he didn't know because this is not his area of expertise. I will ask a Muslim doctor (the same one who helped me become Muslim) but he's not usually at the mosque except for Isha', which I usually pray at home.

getting questions from islamwatch or other anti-Muslim sites is not a great Idea for a Muslim. They rely mostly on the work done on Islam by the Orientalists or tales told by the European travelers of the past centuries. In some cases, books like Thousand and One Nights and The Perfumed Garden or stories like aladin, ali baba and sinbad are used to explain Islam
I have not visited any anti-Islamic sites since I converted to Islam, and even a while before then. I read about this first on Faith Freedom International, but that was before I knew that not all ahadith were sahih. I thought that the ones that Ali Sina puts in his comic book weren't sahih. However, I noticed this hadith in a translation of the Qur'an, and I actually looked up the hadith in Sahih Al-Bukhari in the mosque library.

In light of all the above, there is only one motive for posting these questions here, and it ain't the desire to learn!!!
You are making accusations for which you have no proof. My question was not intended to cause debate: I am sincerely looking for an answer. I want to find out if modern science has proven what the Prophet SAWS said. If I was intending debate, why would I write "Can anyone help me with this?".
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NoName55
10-03-2007, 06:44 AM
If I was intending debate, why would I write "Can anyone help me with this?
My son plays stupid all the time at trinitarian sites, just like they do here.

Saying: "Can anyone help me with this?" is no proof of anything

BTW. you overlooked following:
I am sure you know very well that this site is populated by kids and with the exception of one or two, also moderated by kids. The only answers you can expect to get are from googlers who may not even understand what they copy/paste.
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Michael
10-03-2007, 11:26 AM
NoName55,

I am not trying to debate anyone here. I would place my hand on the Holy Qur'an and swear this (but I can't as how would I type?).

I am searching for a sincere answer to my question. Please don't post here unless you are answering the question in the original post.
Reply

NoName55
10-03-2007, 11:42 AM
mr. Michael
I will post in any open thread as I see fit for as long as I remain a member.

Only way to stop me is to get me banned. Until then I will object to any x-rated thread on a forum that my grandchildren, ranging from 7 to 20 year old, were allowed to visit in the past, now its becoming so bad that you could see my black face turn red
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-03-2007, 11:52 AM
micheal why would genetics conflict with the initial discharge affecting the resemblence of a certain parent? Isnt it possible that it is indeed the initial discharge which helps mould the genetics into what it is?


i hope im making sense, this is simply an observation. for a true answer go to a scholar



IMPORTANT NOTE

It is VERY dangerous to read hadith on your own, i would suggest you find a teacher or start reading books which come with explenations. Just picking up sahih bukhari could be a cause of misguidance and we seek refuge in Allah from that... especially when its the english translation and not even in its pure pristine arabic form....


assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah
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NYCmuslim
10-03-2007, 12:41 PM
Peace brother NoName55, theres no reason to get agitated by brother Michael's post. He's a recent revert and Im sure he has many sincere questions and just needs some guidance. As muslims, we must be most kind and not make assumptions about anyone.

About your question Michael, the best answer you can get is one from a scholar. They are the only experts in interpreting hadiths and thus you should try to contact one if able.

Peace be unto you all.
Reply

جوري
10-06-2007, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Michael
If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her."

[/B]This is basically saying that if the man has his orgasm first during sexual intercourse, the child will look like him, and if the woman has her orgasm first, then the child will look like her. Modern science has proven that it is genetics that determine whom the child looks like.

Can anyone here help me with this? Especially those who can read the hadith in the original Arabic.


I'll help you with the medical aspect of this question but not trangress the Islamic aspect of this..
first let's go over a few terms
Autosomal dominant-- is one of several ways that a trait or disorder can be passed down through families. If a disease is autosomal dominant, it means you only need to get the abnormal gene from one parent in order for you to inherit the disease. One of the parents may often have the disease.

Autosomal Recessive-- individuals who have received two copies of an autosomal gene, one copy from each parent. The gene is on an autosome, a nonsex chromosome. The parents are carriers who have only one copy of the gene and do not exhibit the trait because the gene is recessive to its normal counterpart gene.
If both parents are carriers, there is a 25% chance of a child inheriting both abnormal genes and, consequently, developing the disease

Mitochondrial inheritance: The inheritance of a trait encoded in the mitochondrial genome. Because of the oddities of mitochondria, mitochondrial inheritance does not obey the classic rules of genetics. Persons with a mitochondrial disease may be male or female but they are always related in the maternal line and no male with the disease can transmit it to his children.

X-linked dominant-- is mode of inheritance in which a gene on the X chromosome is dominant[1]. Females can be more frequently affected than males since they have two X chromosomes that could potentially carry the abnormal gene, whereas a male has only one. However, the Lyon hypothesis states that X-inactivation renders only one copy of the X chromosome active in each cell hence on average one would expect only one half of the cells to express the abnormal gene. The chance of passing on an X-linked dominant disorder differs between men and women.

X-linked recessive is a mode of inheritance in which a mutation in a gene on the X chromosome causes the phenotype to be expressed only (1) in males (who are necessarily hemizygous for the gene mutation because they have only one X chromosome) and (2) in females who are homozygous for the gene mutation (i.e., they have a copy of the gene mutation on each of their two X chromosomes).

X-linked inheritance-- means that the gene causing the trait or the disorder is located on the X chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes, while males have one X and one Y chromosome. Carrier females who have only one copy of the mutation do not usually express the phenotype, although differences in X chromosome inactivation can lead to varying degrees of clinical expression in carrier females since some cells will express one X allele and some will express the other



just a brief summary of how some traits and/or disorders are passed down.. there is also such thing as

Penetrance - the frequency of expression of an allele when it is present in the genotype of the organism (if 9/10 of individuals carrying an allele express the trait, the trait is said to be 90% penetrant)

Not all phenotypes that are expressed are manifested to the same degree. For polydactyly, an extra digit may occur on one or more appendages, and the digit can be full size or just a stub. Therefore, when the P allele is present it expresses variable expressivity.

Expressivity - variation in allelic expression when the allele is penetrant.



why am I giving you a brief analysis of all of this? It is simple, though we might know the science behind these phenomenon we can only PREDICT the chances of something happening but not whether or not it will actually happen-- for instance and please pay special attention because this is where your answer lies, and we'll go to what we actually know beyond expressivity and Penetrance which in and of itself is in the realm of the almighty . Say you know a lady who has cystic fibrosis, cystic fibrosis is an autosomal recessive trait, she marries a man who also carries this trait what are the chances they will have a child with that trait? will you can draw your Punnett square and your answer will be very apparent...say this couple has 4 children with cystic fibrosis, does that mean it is an Autosomal dominant trait and will affect every child? absolutely not. we can't predict who will be affected we can only use the terms when counseling such patients, you'll have a 25% chance with eery pregnancy of having a child with cystic fibrosis...

let's use another example-- say you have a coin with two sides heads and tails. there will always be a 50% chance when you flip a coin that it will be heads or tails correct? say I pick tails and the first 898 times you tossed it always landed on heads, does that mean my chances of having heads the next time you toss that coin is 100% guaranteed heads given your previous 898 attempts? absolutely not the chances don't change they will always be 50/50.. you can't predict in a toss which side it will land on, but it is a guarantee it will be one or the other..I hope you understand what I mean by this insha'Allah and hope it answers your question... science can't predict and tell you 100% fool proof when you've sex on a Monday you'll be guaranteed a male child.. this is simply beyond the realm of science.. they can tell you, there is a chance of male/female, there is no chance of fertility at all, there is a chance your child might end up with this 75% guarantee or 25% guarantee, there is a chance your child will be born with a disomy, a trisomy, might end up a hydatid mole, there is a chance it will look like you, like the mother or like the paternal uncle, they can't tell you which genes are going to combine in what sort of combination to predict the final phenotype of your conception-- .. since it is all a matter of the almighty...

sperms don't have just the assigned role we tend to think of them, which is to swim and fertalize, there is a whole life going on there, some sperms play guard to prevent other sperms from passing through, there is behavioral and chemical tactics to this microscopic cells, each having assigned roles that are beyond the purposes of this discussion here and go well beyond the reason for the question, and the same goes for eggs by the way.. so it could very well be certain maneuvers predict a particular outcome.. we can't tell since we haven't run a study to see what sort of genes mix on what pattern to form what, under some circumstances, and I don't see couples volunteering themselves to such a study... bottom line is 'genetics' has no way to invalidate the hadith..

Allah knows best.. this is my knowledge based on science not Islamic jurisprudence and pray that it was of help to you insha'Allah?

:w:
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Skillganon
10-06-2007, 03:53 AM
Good post sis Ambrosia.

One point just to clarify, the hadith is not talking about the Sex of the child it is talking about appearance (resemblance).
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Malaikah
10-06-2007, 04:32 AM
:sl:

I recently read an article about a study that showed that women who were stressed during pregnancy were more likely to have a boy (or was it a girl? Not sure) than women who were not stressed. It mentioned that the implications of the study are very important because it is believed to be only the genetics that determine. However they hypothesised that there might be something about the conditions of the womb that means male foetus are more/less likely to be miscarriage (for lack of a better word) than females ones very early on (like a few days after conception or something).

The reason I mentioned this is that it shows that scientific knowledge is always changing. So it could be that the order of ejaculation favours some embryos over others, or something else. Just because we don't know about it yet, doesn't mean it is false.

Also, PurestAmbrosia raises and important point, that a person may have a gene and it might not be expressed at all.

Anyway, here is a related article:


Question: I came across a statement in the Sunnah wherein the Prophet (peace be upon him) says: “Yes indeed. A man’s fluid is thick and white and a women’s fluid is thin and yellow. Whichever of the two ejaculates first will be the one the child would resemble.” Does a woman does actually ejaculate? And isn’t resemblance based on genetic make-up and not on which partner ejaculates first?

Answered by Sheikh Sulaymân al-`Îsâ, professor at al-Imâm University in Riyadh


This is an important question requiring a detailed answer.

The first part of the question regards whether a woman releases a fluid during sexual intercourse the same as a man does. We say if the hadîth is authentic, then it is true and it should be accepted. The hadîth you have mentioned is related in Sahîh Muslim and is of undoubted authenticity.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) states in the hadîth that women has a fluid that is thin and yellow.

Allah says about his Prophet (peace be upon him): “Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) desire, it is no less than inspiration sent down to him” [Sûrah al-Najm: 3-4]

This issue was discussed by Dr. Muhammad `Ali al-Bârr in his book Human Creation between Medicine and the Qur’an under the heading “Does the woman release a fluid” (page 149).

He writes:

This had been a matter of disagreement. Sheikh al-Fakhr al-Râzî in his wonderful book, al-Mabâhith al-Mashriqiyyah, mentions that Aristotle denied that women have a fluid. Then Galen, the prominent Greek doctor strongly criticized Aristotle for that and proved that women have a fluid that differs in its nature from the fluid of men. It does not come out as an ejaculation but flows on the member and is a white moisture.

Al-Râzî then mentions that Umm Sulaym came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said: “O Messenger of Allah, Allah does not shy from the truth. Must a woman have a bath if she has has a sexual release while sleeping?”

He replied: “Yes, if she sees the fluid.” [Sahîh Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]

The release of fluid from woman’s vagina is something natural. It takes place during sexual intercourse or while sleeping. It is obligatory for her to have a bath thereafter. During sexual intercourse the woman’s fluid mixes with the man’s.

Dr. al-Bârr continues:

The woman releases two types of fluid. The first is a sticky fluid that flows inside her vagina and has nothing to do with the creation of the fetus. The second is a liquid that is released at a single occasion from the Graafian follicle in the ovary when the follicle is full of a yellow liquid.

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “The man’s fluid is white and woman’s is yellow.”

Turning our attention to the child resembling one of its parents, this is also confirmed by the prophetic hadîth. The child may sometimes resemble his father, his mother, one of his uncles, his grandparents, or he may closely resemble none of them.

Dr. Muhammad al-Bârr, in the same book (page 164) writes:

In brief, the factors governing the child’s resembling one parent, grandparent, or even coming with new attributes that do not belong to any of his relatives – like what happened at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him) when al-Farâzî’s wife gave birth to a black baby while none of their relatives were black – is a very complicated matter. Genetics plays a very complicated role. Some of these genes follow the Mendelian model with respect to dominant and recessive genes and others do not.

Even those genes that submit to such laws might at times not act in accordance with those laws. The gene may or may not be fully expressed.

Modern medicine is still ignorant of many of the determining factors that bring about how much a child will resemble either of its parents. Until now, we do not know the role that may be played by the release of one fluid before the other in how the child will resemble one of his parents. Until and unless this is decisively determined in the future, we have no other choice but to simply believe what our Prophet (peace be upon him) said. He does not say anything except the truth.

In fact, this should encourage medical scholars to investigate these matters and discover new things.

I have given you the answer of Dr. Muhammad al-Bârr, because this is an important issue and I found his answer to be sufficient.

We have to believe in what Allah and His Messenger (peace be upon him) tell us. We are certain of the fact that Allah says: “Of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you.” [Sûrah al-Isrâ’: 85]

And Allah knows best.

http://islamtoday.com/show_detail_se...main_cat_id=31
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islamirama
10-06-2007, 04:55 AM
You can throw science out the window, if it doesn't deal with facts (which are always changing also),it's not worth listening. anyways, here is something science DEFYING stuff :)

A BLACK mother with a white husband has given birth to twin girls of different colours in a million-to-one medical miracle.
In what is believed to be an Australian first, mum Natasha Knight, 35, of Jamaican-English heritage, and father Michael Singerl, 34, of German heritage, conceived the girls, one black and one white, naturally.
The couple also has a five-year-old daughter Taylah, who is blue-eyed with blonde hair and a light olive complexion.
The twins, Alicia and Jasmin, were born in Queensland's Caboolture Hospital in May.
Experts say the chance of twins being born with such different physical characteristics is about a million to one.
Ms Knight said she was shocked when she saw how different her daughters were.
"When they were born you could see there was a colour difference straight away. We couldn't believe it,'' she said.
"Alicia's eyes were brown and her hair was dark. Jasmin's eyes were blue and her hair was white - you could hardly see her hair or her eyebrows.
"We were joking when I was pregnant about what if one baby looked like me and one looked like Michael. We joked about one light one, one dark one, so it was amazing when it actually happened.''








I thought different face couples always had mix kids, not too black nor too white. Guess science isn't always right (cause its nothing more than man's limited discovery and hypothesis).
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Malaikah
10-06-2007, 05:16 AM
^Ummm I don't see how that defies science. Science says it is rare. Reality proves it is rare because we don't see it happening left, right and centre.

There is no need to trough science out the window. If you did, your computer would have to follow close behind it because it was built based on science...
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islamirama
10-06-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
^Ummm I don't see how that defies science. Science says it is rare. Reality proves it is rare because we don't see it happening left, right and centre.

There is no need to trough science out the window. If you did, your computer would have to follow close behind it because it was built based on science...
there's difference established science (upon which things like PC is built) and speculative science that is often changing in light of new discoveries.
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جوري
10-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by islamirama


I thought different face couples always had mix kids, not too black nor too white. Guess science isn't always right (cause its nothing more than man's limited discovery and hypothesis).
[/INDENT]
This is an excellent post and it spotlights the fact that science can't with any adequate measure predict the outcome of anything with a 100% guarantee.. it isn't so much a matter of right or wrong as it is a trangression in what we call '3ilm al-ghyeb'-- ' in the realm of the unknown' for instance I can give you the formula sort of like the empiric or the predicted outcome of a situation but can't tell you what shape, color, size or form it will be.. and it is the same cross specie.. only Allah shapes you in the form he desires why someone ends up with one brown eye and one blue eye or both hazel though there is no family history of it?.. or how a plant takes form.. this difference that makes a stem diffrentiate into a leaf or the flowering part, if you break it down to the most basic units of purines and pyrimidines and couple them in their allotted sequence, you couldn't tell or initiate the process that gives a plant its morphology.. it is what you'd call a divine secret..

It is a few minutes before fajr and I don't want to write too much when I am not as lucid as I'd be another hour, but I hope all can get the picture of why in the Quran.. Allah says

وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}
[Yusufali 35:28] And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
[Pickthal 35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving.
the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation.. unlike what atheists will have you believe most scientists believe in God or in some inexplicable/incomprehensible force behind those seemingly 'normal/natural phenomenon around us.. I know this is a trangression from the purpose of our topic, but some will have you believe that the more you learn the less you need God, in fact learning only serves to foster and reaffirm your beliefs, once you see how it all is so well orchestrated and engineered you have no choice but to render this to a higher force that is beyond our comprehension--conversely most Atheists I have met were english and/or philosophy teachers... too many Canterbury Tales, Epicurus and Democritus can only serve to deaden the souls of those who are already emotionally blunted and frankly down right ungrateful.. but it isn't the conclusion of the rational mind who doessome minmum level of reflection!
:w:
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Caller الداعي
10-06-2007, 10:16 AM
:sl:
brother firstly the hadith doesnt mention orgasm but mentions alo' which means to dominate....and this may refer to the process of fertilization later on in the feotus.....
this video i found explains very clearly ..but....its in arabic.
http://www.archive.org/details/msolea
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Malaikah
10-06-2007, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation..
:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?
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NoName55
10-06-2007, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?
:w:
that is why I despise googlers and people who rely on hearsay, there is no substitute for good schooling.

BTW. Sr.Ambrosia's mother tongue is Arabic.

there are gazillions of fields, any of which one can be scholar of (aalim can refer to holder of any knowlege depending on what is being talked about).

ilm simply means knowlege, knowlege of anything.

we have a saying in Pakistan:

"Neem hakeem khatra-e-jaan, Neem mullah khatra-e-eemaan"
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جوري
10-06-2007, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I thought this was referring to the 'ulama= scholars of the religion? :?
3olama'a by itself means 'scientists' when you say '3alim zhara' means a scientist in atomic/nuclear physics as an ex... you can tell it doesn't just denote 'scholar of religion' by way of translation of both pickthal and yusfali or by using any Arabic dictionary.. neither say those who fear Allah most are 'scholars of religion'... basically anyone who is deeply learned and reflects will reach the same conclusion..

Allah knows best
thank you for the Q
:w:
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Malaikah
10-07-2007, 01:18 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
that is why I despise googlers and people who rely on hearsay, there is no substitute for good schooling.

BTW. Sr.Ambrosia's mother tongue is Arabic.
Must you insult me for asking a simple question? For your information, I did not use google to come to that conclusion, but rather knowledge I received from other students of knowledge. And even if I didn't, how can the Quran be referring to scientists by name when they did not even exists at the prophets time?

Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
3olama'a by itself means 'scientists' when you say '3alim zhara' means a scientist in atomic/nuclear physics as an ex... you can tell it doesn't just denote 'scholar of religion' by way of translation of both pickthal and yusfali or by using any Arabic dictionary.. neither say those who fear Allah most are 'scholars of religion'... basically anyone who is deeply learned and reflects will reach the same conclusion..
:sl:

Thaks for your reply sis. But as far as I know there was no such thing as scientists in the prophets time, wouldn't the name 'alim have been attributed to them later on?

Anyway, in tafsir Ibn Kathir it mentioned explicitly that it is referring to people are scholars of the religion:

﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ﴾


(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.) meaning, only those who have knowledge truly fear Him as He should be feared, because the more they know about the Almighty, All-Powerful, All-Knowing Who has the most perfect attributes and is described with the most beautiful Names, the more they will fear Him. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas commented on the Ayah:


﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ﴾


(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.) those who know that Allah is able to do all things. Ibn `Abbas said, "The one among His servants who knows about Ar-Rahman, is the one who does not associate anything in worship with Him; the one who accepts as lawful that which He has permitted and accepts as unlawful that which He has prohibited. He obeys His commands and is certain that he will meet Him and be brought to account for his deeds. Sa`id bin Jubayr said, "Fear is what stands between you and disobeying Allah, may He be glorified.'' Al-Hasan Al-Basri said, "The knowledgeable person is the one who fears Ar-Rahman with regard to the Unseen, who likes that which Allah wants him to like, and who shuns that which angers Allah.'' Then Al-Hasan recited:


﴿إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ﴾


(It is only those among His servants who have knowledge that fear Allah. Verily, Allah is Almighty, Oft-Forgiving.) Sufyan Ath-Thawri narrated from Abu Hayyan At-Taymi from a man who said, "It used to be said that the knowledgeable are of three types: (first) one who knows Allah and the command of Allah, (second) one who knows Allah but does not know the command of Allah, and (third) one who knows the command of Allah but does not know Allah. The one who knows Allah and the command of Allah is the one who fears Allah and knows the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id). The one who knows Allah but does not know the command of Allah is the one who fears Allah but does not know the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id). The one who knows the command of Allah but does not know Allah is the one who knows the limits (Hudud) and the obligatory duties (Fara'id) but does not fear Allah.''

Allah knows best. :)
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NoName55
10-07-2007, 01:32 AM
Must you insult me for asking a simple question?
no It looked to me as if someone was trying to belittle Sr. Ambrosia and when people try that I go berserk, when sister Manal said Scientist, did she say it was to do with a nuclear physicist
how can the Quran be referring to scientists by name when they did not even exists at the prophets time?
Scientist does not only mean a modern day bomb maker or discoverer or inventor (both discoverer and inventor have been around probably since the beginning) but Science simply means ilm, knowlege or a way to find truth or knowlege.

I shall wait for Br. Woodrow to come back from iftaar before I attempt any further explanations

for now, suffice it to say

Science: knowlege (of anything)
Scientist: A learned person (who understands any field)
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NoName55
10-07-2007, 02:08 AM
in response to edit and additions to post #25

Things have changed somewhat since days of ibn kathir. Today Justice usmani and people like hime have access to more resources at once than even his father Mufti Shafi did.

As such they are better placed to compare and draw from knowledge of all Muslim Heroes (at once) than ibn kathir ever could

(It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah.)
still I do not see him saying Aalim = knower of religion.
PS. It is time for me to resign from this thread!
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 02:23 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah



:sl:

Thaks for your reply sis. But as far as I know there was no such thing as scientists in the prophets time, wouldn't the name 'alim have been attributed to them later on?


Allah knows best. :)
:sl: dear sis.. I'd like for us to take a look at the verse in its entirety and pls keep in mind the transcendence of the Quran, if anyone were to interpret it at the time, it would have been prophet Mohammed himself PBUH, but there are things in the Quran that are still being discovered today that were just simply memorized by people back then .. part of its beauty and its beauty and miracles are countless is that there is something in it for every generation.. we can certainly take the linear approach to a subject based on one interpretation or translation, I personally wouldn't recommend that approach, but I am not exegetical expert.. for instance and I quote Dr. Gary Miller
The Female Bee In the 16th chapter (Surah an-Nahl 16:68-69) the Qur'an mentions that the female bee leaves its home to gather food. Now, a person might guess on that, saying, "The bee that you see flying around - it could be male, or it could be female. I think I will guess female." Certainly, he has a one in two chance of being right. So it happens that the Qur'an is right. But it also happens that that was not what most people believed at the time when the Qur'an was revealed. Can you tell the difference between a male and a female bee? Well, it takes a specialist to do that, but it has been discovered that the male bee never leaves his home to gather food. However, in Shakespeare's play, Henry the Fourth, some of the characters discuss bees and mention that the bees are soldiers and have a king. That is what people thought in Shakespeare's time - that the bees that one sees flying around are male bees and that they go home and answer to a king.
certainly that isn't something a 'scholar in religion' would have come to discover during the prophet's time or any time as I certainly believe all fields of science will lead to Allah.. this sort of thing would take a '3alim' in say zoology or biology in general

.. look at the first words of the verse, 'wamena a'naas wa'dwab, wal'an3am mokhtalif alwanih' and what its relation is to someone reflecting?.. the words aren't as simple as all that, if you think of it from an evolutionary front, or a scientific front you'll undoubtedly reach a conclusion not unlike say someone who was trained at al'azhar or even better for if he/she restricted themselves to just memorizing instead of trying to understand the meaning by branching into other fields simply take it for its poetry and stop The Muslim world wouldn't have reached the height of enlightenment in the midst of Europe's darkest ages..
someone who looks into the painstaking of what goes into making just one functional protein, let alone a wing of a fly in all its complexity, let alone the adornement in it by various colors and contrast to nature, further into its the usefulness in it for humanity in the making of silk or honey or other material for us, or even for purpose of procreation amongest its own specie, will undoubtedly lead one to think of the greatness of Allah...
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَلِكَ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ {28}
[Yusufali 35:28] And so amongst men and crawling creatures and cattle, are they of various colours. Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge: for Allah is Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving.
[Pickthal 35:28] And of men and beasts and cattle, in like manner, divers hues? The erudite among His bondmen fear Allah alone. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Forgiving. ...

This verse was explained to me by someone whom I admire very much, and who himself wrote three books on Islamic science and someone who was a driving force behind my pursuing science-- and every day indeed, I marvel at the sophisitcation and ingenuity of Allah's creation...

I was reading an article today produced by Duke University Medical School producing a theory: the appendix "acts as a good safe house for bacteria." http://www.qj.net/Appendix-has-a-fun.../49/aid/104308
here is something for the longest time the atheists held on to as a 'rudimentary remnant', a product that has no use and left there due to some 'evolutionary' process meant to disprove the need for God.. well what do you know.. God created it for a purpose, we just didn't know what it was...
scientists of all forms sister, if they are sincere will reach the truth.. all the roads will eventually lead to one...

Allah knows best--

now a word from my heart.. I really can't stand, absolutely detest it when Muslims fight amongest themselves.. we are all here to learn, no one is more knowledgeable than anyone, save for what Allah chooses to teach us, so let's all share it in good spirit.. I have nothing to prove to anyone.. and I know none of the Muslims here have anything to prove to me..
I keep this LI family as God is my witness in my prayers during tarawi7-- and I pray you do the same for me
:w:
Reply

Malaikah
10-07-2007, 02:45 AM
:sl:

I just don't understand how you can translate the word in the Quran to mean scientist if they did not exist in the past...

It is like taking the word 'sayyara' from surat Yusuf and saying it means car because that is the word Arabs use for cars now- but there were no cars in the time of Prophet Yusuf and the word originally used to mean caravan, not car... :-\

Perhaps the meaning could be more general than a scholar of the religion (I do not know, I have never heard it being explained as anything other than that), however to restrict it to mean scientist, I really don't understand how that is possible.

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make.:)
Reply

Skillganon
10-07-2007, 02:53 AM
WHat is the linguistic meaning of the word?

Maybe one can show that
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 02:57 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I just don't understand how you can translate the word in the Quran to mean scientist if they did not exist in the past...

It is like taking the word 'sayyara' from surat Yusuf and saying it means car because that is the word Arabs use for cars now- but there were no cars in the time of Prophet Yusuf and the word originally used to mean caravan, not car... :-\

Perhaps the meaning could be more general than a scholar of the religion (I do not know, I have never heard it being explained as anything other than that), however to restrict it to mean scientist, I really don't understand how that is possible.

I hope you can see the point I am trying to make.:)
I do indeed dear sister.. as well I hope you see my point when I say the Quran wasn't created for the sole inhabitants of Arabia 14-15 centuries ago? and like the example given with the female bee, certainly there were no folks at the time of the prophet with sophisticated machinery to look into such particulars or even into the geology mentioned or the high altitude hypoxia of it, the physiology of it the astronomy of it.. Do you see my point? If you'll take it even literally 3alim mean a scientist I gather the word hakeem as you use in urdu? but it doesn't get into specifics.. that is something you've construed based on someone's interpretation... it could very well be just religious scholars but in the context of the entire verse and looking at the entirety of the Quran.. I'll venture into saying I think Allah meant to include those who deeply reflect... there are many ahadith speaking of the virtues of a servant who is 3alim over one who is 3abid.. surely there is a difference..
:w:
Reply

NoName55
10-07-2007, 03:01 AM
if there were no scientists of today's understanding, then how did people know the use of metals? inventing blades for swords etc. did a formula fell in to their lap magically and told them at what temperture the metals melted?

why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?

for the final, final and very final time, the scientists means العلماء

Akhi al-madani, please help me out here
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 03:01 AM
found a whole page on this but it is in Arabic.. will try to translate it later when I have the time insha'Allah

إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء (*)

هذه الآية قالها عالم الكيمياء هبة الله المشرقي لزميله عالم الفلك الإنكليزي ، فأسلم . وكان السبب في ذلك ما يلي :

" جيمس جونز " وهو من أشهر علماء الفلك في القرن العشرين ، خارجاً من جامعة كمبردج حيث يدرِّس فيها هو والمشرقي ، وكان الجو ممطراً بغزارة ، فالتقاه زميله هبة الله على باب الجامعة والمطر يتقطر من وجهه وأذنيه ، بينما مظلته تحت إبطه مع كتاب ضخم ، فسأله المشرقي : إلى أين ، قال إلى الكنيسة ، قال ولماذا ولا أعلمك من المصلين ولا المتدينين . قال أصبحت منهم وأنا ذاهب لأسجد لله سجدة طويلة وأقول له ما أعظمك ! ما أعظمك يا رب ! . قال المشرقي والمطر ما زال ينهمر عليهما غزيراً ، وما هذا تحت إبطك قال الإنجيل ، قال وهذه ؟ فالتفت جيمس جونز فوجد أنها مظلته ، لم يفطن لاستعمالها وهو بأمس الحاجة إليها لأنه كان ما زال شارداً ذهنه في الفلك وتعقيداته وعجيب نظامه وعظمة خالقه ومبرمجه ومدبِّره وحافظه، والذي هو الله تعالى لا شريك له ولا مساعد ، ومن يستطيع أن يساعد في حمل ثِقل واحد من أثقال هذه الغابات النارية ـ النورانية ، أو أن يلمَّ بأسفارها واتجاهاتها وحركاتها ناهيك عن خلقها على عظائمها وعجائبها بين حرفين : الكاف والنون . ومن العدم ، فقد أثبت العلم أن المادة ليست أزلية ، لا سيما بعد اكتشاف " القانـون الثانــي للحـرارة الدينـاميكيــــــة " Second law of Thermo Dynamics . هذا القانون يبرهن أن الحرارة تنتقل دائماً من ( وجود حراري ) إلى ( عدم حراري ) والعكس مستحيل .

وبناءً على هذا الإكتشاف العلمي الرائع ثبت أن موجودات ما تحت السماء الدنيا من نجوم وكواكب وأجرام سماوية تتناقص كفاءَتها مع الزمن ، ولا بدَّ من أن تتساوى في وقت ما ـ إذا شاء الله ـ حرارة جميع الموجودات ، وعندئذ ، بعد استقراء هذا الوضع من الناحية العلمية ، تنتهي الحياة أو تتوقف على هذه الأرض وتحت هذه السماء .

ـــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــــ ـــــ ــــــــــــــــ

(*) آية قرآنية رقمها 28 سورة فاطر .

نحن استطردنا .. وتركنا جيمس جونز يبتسم ، إذ انتبه لشروده عن مظلته حتى تبلل ولم يشعر ، ودعا صديقه ليشرح له في لقاء ٍ عصر ذلك اليوم ، سبب إيمانه العميق والفجائي .

ومع تناول الشاي أخذ عالم الفلك يتحدث عن بعض وجوه هذا النظام الإلـهي العظيم ، للسماء وكواكبها ونجومها ، وعالم الكيمياء القرآني ، يستمع ويوافق ، حتى وصل إلى درجة لم يعد رأسه يحتمل ، من عجائب تحركات الأجرام السماوية وتعقيداتها وأرقامها وأبعادها . فأشار إلى صديقه أن كفى ، ثم استأذنه بأن يتلو عليه آية من القرآن الكريم . قال :

قال الله تبارك وتعالى :

{ ألـم تر أن الله أنزل من السماء ماءً فأخرجنا به ثمراتٍ مختلفاً ألوانها ومن الجبال جدد بيض وحمر مختلف ألوانها وغرابيب سود. ومن الناس والدوابِّ والأنعام مختلف ألوانه كذلك إنما يخشى اللهَ من عباده العلماءُ . سورة فاطر الآيتان 27 و 28 } .

فاستعادها جيمس جونز وتمعَّن فيها ، وتداول مع هبة الله بشأن تاريخها وتفسيرها . إلى أن انتهى إلى القرار بأن هذا القرآن هو يقيناً من لدن الله تبارك وتعالى ، مقراً بأن محمداً (ص) هو رسول الله . فبادره المشرقي بقوله : على هذا الأساس أنت أسلمت يا صديقي . قال : إذا كان الإسلام هو الإقرار بوحدانية الله كما في كتابكم والإيمان بالقرآن منزلاً من لدن الله تبارك وتعالى وبمحمد ٍ رسولاً من عند الله ، فأنا أسلمت حقاً . فقال له : هل أكتب ما جرى بيننا وأنشره ؟ قال : اكتب وأنشر . وأنا شاكر لله وبذلك فخور .

لماذا ( إنما يخشى اللهَ من عباده العلماءُ ) ولا سيما الذين يتتبعون في الآفاق وفي الأنفس عجائب خلق الله وغرائب آياته، وبالأخص منهم علماء الفلك ؟ ذلك لقوله تعالى : { لَخلقُ السماوات والأرض أكبر من خلق الناس ... سورة غافر آية 57 } .


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Reply

Malaikah
10-07-2007, 03:06 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I do indeed dear sister.. as well I hope you see my point when I say the Quran wasn't created for the sole inhabitants of Arabia 14-15 centuries ago?
Of course, but that doesn't mean we can change the meaning of words. (Like in my example of the word sayyara in surat Yusuf). We must understand the meaning of the words in the Quran using the meaning of the word used during the prophets time.

I am not arguing that you can't say that a scientists falls under the general meaning of the word 'alim in the verse (maybe it can, maybe it can't- I don't know), but to translate it as scientist, that just doesn't make sense, because it means that everyone else is excluded from the verse (such as scholars of the religion).

there are many ahadith speaking of the virtues of a servant who is 3alim over one who is 3abid.. surely there is a difference..
Yes, however all the explanations of this hadith that I have come across understand it as a 'alim of the religion...
Reply

Malaikah
10-07-2007, 03:08 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?
To my understanding we are talking about science in the specific meaning of studying the natural world by experimental methods, like chemistry, physics and biology.
Reply

Skillganon
10-07-2007, 03:12 AM
I agree with sis Malaikah.
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 03:12 AM
one more thing I realize there is a post I shall reply to insha'Allah

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http://online.ectaco.co.uk/main.jsp?...rce_id=2239512
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Skillganon
10-07-2007, 03:13 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
if there were no scientists of today's understanding, then how did people know the use of metals? inventing blades for swords etc. did a formula fell in to their lap magically and told them at what temperture the metals melted?

why is uloom al Quraan translated as sciences of Quraan?
why is uloom al Hadith, Hadith sciences?

Akhi al-madani, please help me out here
I think that is due to it's methodology...i.e. the science of it.

Science from latin scientia means knowledge.

In general science has a methodology that is adopted in aquiring knowledge so does studying Quran and Hadith.

The word science can be used loosely in those terms.
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Of course, but that doesn't mean we can change the meaning of words. (Like in my example of the word sayyara in surat Yusuf). We must understand the meaning of the words in the Quran using the meaning of the word used during the prophets time.

I am not arguing that you can't say that a scientists falls under the general meaning of the word 'alim in the verse (maybe it can, maybe it can't- I don't know), but to translate it as scientist, that just doesn't make sense, because it means that everyone else is excluded from the verse (such as scholars of the religion).



Yes, however all the explanations of this hadith that I have come across understand it as a 'alim of the religion...

sister here we are comparing apples and oranges.. but I am not following at all least of which by the example you've given which is a conclusion that does not follow from the premises that are for the purpose of this discussion---also I don't understand, where you've concluded from any of my posts 'excluding' everyone else? the word literally says 'al'olama' plural form --in fact if one thing it does it be very inclusive those who are 'erudite' as per yusfali, those who are 'knowledgeable' as per pickthal.. those who are scientists literally.. so to be honest you've lost me with this last post.. we can just agree to disagree at this stage..

btw to save everyone the Arabic page.. it was basically between two friends who have gone to cambridge both scientists, one of them a physicist (A scientist trained in physics) who was telling his friend a Muslim how he must hurry to church to pray for the one who made this universe so luminous and glorious after brief discussions of the science in the Quran, he decided to convert to Islam and as you can see the openning of the page the verse
إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء used.. in context of a learned physicist --those who fear Allah most are his 'knowledgable' servants.. I am sure a similar dialogue could have taken place amongst a couple of knowledgable servants in biochemistry or a couple of Al'Azhar scholars ( Allah a3lam).. the point is to reflect on creation not to argue semantics...

:w:
Reply

Malaikah
10-07-2007, 03:28 AM
Okay, you lost me big time. Let's just forget about it inshaallah. :)
Reply

Skillganon
10-07-2007, 03:29 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
sister here we are comparing apples and oranges.. but I am not following at all least of which by the example you've given which is a conclusion that does not follow from the premises that are for the purpose of this discussion---also I don't understand, where you've concluded from any of my posts 'excluding' everyone else? the word literally says 'al'olama' plural form --in fact if one thing it does it be very inclusive those who are 'erudite' as per yusfali, those who are 'knowledgeable' as per pickthal.. those who are scientists literally.. so to be honest you've lost me with this last post.. we can just agree to disagree at this stage..

btw to save everyone the Arabic page.. it was basically between two friends who have gone to cambridge both scientists, one of them a physicist (A scientist trained in physics) who was telling his friend a Muslim how he must hurry to church to pray for the one who made this universe so luminous and glorious after brief discussions of the science in the Quran, he decided to convert to Islam and as you can see the openning of the page the verse
إنما يخشى الله من عباده العلماء used.. in context of a learned physicist --those who fear Allah most are his 'knowledgable' servants.. I am sure a similar dialogue could have taken place amongst a couple of knowledgable servants in biochemistry or a couple of Al'Azhar scholars ( Allah a3lam).. the point is to reflect on creation not to argue semantics...

:w:
Do I count?

I am a scientist but I am lacking in Arabic..

:D

Anyway...

I take the word to mean a person of religious knowledge. Preferebly the word scholar..
Reply

جوري
10-07-2007, 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Okay, you lost me big time. Let's just forget about it inshaallah. :)



:w:
Reply

noodles
10-08-2007, 02:47 PM
Big time losers :p

(slowly slides away from the thread)
Reply

czgibson
10-08-2007, 03:23 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
the word الْعُلَمَاء literally means scientists-- in other words those who fear Allah most are the scientists because they see the magistrate and aesthetics of creation..
I'm not an Arabic speaker, so I can't comment on the exact meaning of this word, but, as has been pointed out by another poster, "science" comes from scientia, Latin for knowledge, so scientists are literally 'people with knowledge', which can of course be applied to any intellectual discipline. This would obviously explain why the word has been translated as 'scientists' by some people.

unlike what atheists will have you believe most scientists believe in God or in some inexplicable/incomprehensible force behind those seemingly 'normal/natural phenomenon around us..
I'm sure most scientists will readily admit there are unexplained forces in the universe, but that's very different from believing in god.

conversely most Atheists I have met were english and/or philosophy teachers...
Did you have anyone in mind in particular here? :p

too many Canterbury Tales, Epicurus and Democritus can only serve to deaden the souls of those who are already emotionally blunted and frankly down right ungrateful..
Have you ever read the Canterbury Tales, Epicurus or Democritus? I find it hard to believe you could find them 'soul-deadening', particularly the first, which is one of the most joyous and humane celebrations of life in all literature. It also has a thoroughly Christian world-view, so it's not exactly Atheism 101.

Peace
Reply

جوري
10-08-2007, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I'm not an Arabic speaker, so I can't comment on the exact meaning of this word, but, as has been pointed out by another poster, "science" comes from scientia, Latin for knowledge, so scientists are literally 'people with knowledge', which can of course be applied to any intellectual discipline. This would obviously explain why the word has been translated as 'scientists' by some people.
ok!


I'm sure most scientists will readily admit there are unexplained forces in the universe, but that's very different from believing in god.
what leads a scientist to admit to one will just as easily lead him/her to the other.. it is the natural judgment reached after consideration of the first.. Besides that, I hear it first hand from my colleagues so I'll speak freely for the society that I am a part of and as an individual represent-- atheists makeup 7% of the world's population.. too paltry to consider, and as I have said prior most that I have encountered weren't clustered in any scientific field.. rather the three I have met in academia two were English profs. one was a philosophy prof.. the rest were just random ingrates who didn't even give their atheism much thought.. I believe them to be the worst of the bunch unfortunately!
Did you have anyone in mind in particular here? :p
Yes --one nasty broad in my undergrad comes to mind immediately! .. with deadly bad breath who was keen on mocking all religionists! she didn't bring any light to her class, wanted the black students to use Ebonics (A nonstandard form of American English characteristically spoken by African Americans in the United States) as she stated it was a dying art, but she was a racist who probably didn't want them to excel.. I am sure many a job interviewer is really looking for that 'dying art'-- she was never animated or enthused except to affirm her lack of belief in God ( as she always used to question even random folks who weren't addressing her)-- 'what does God have to do with it, what does God have to do with anything?' she'd retort constantly..
A crying shame really.. many people consider English and philosophy to be their 'fun courses' but she managed to turn even that, into the anti-climax.... I thought it was peculiar to be in a position of power and to abuse it the way she did, the least she could have done was be politically correct on occasion?!.. she had tenure I suppose it gave her a back bone?



Have you ever read the Canterbury Tales , Epicurus or Democritus? I find it hard to believe you could find them 'soul-deadening', particularly the first, which is one of the most joyous and humane celebrations of life in all literature. It also has a thoroughly Christian world-view, so it's not exactly Atheism 101.

Peace
No, of course not.. I never read anything outside the Quran (you know that scandalous waste of time).. I don't know where I got the idea to mention them here?.. must have come to me in a dream?

I find 'atheists' of deadened souls.. naturally the soul isn't even something they believe in, so I don't think my observation would have many implications for them under any light?

I found the Canterbury Tales, too sexually charged and indulgent for so-called 'pilgrims'-- unmoderated decadence is an attribute I usually associate with atheists if you'll forgive the resemblance? understanding the finer nuances of literature, can/ and will enable one to make some abstract comparisons-- it is really not that difficult to pick a book and read it especially if of interest to you, or is part of your curriculum.. what do you think?

like wise, I can point out several paintings in art history of religious themes that had an underlying message of mockery to the very subject of religion even though commissioned by the church-- pointing out the sexual nature done by way of trees behind the Virgin Mary or even using dead hookers to depict her ( fine art to some) sacrilegious to others!-- Hard to believe as it is, us Muslim bumpkins even the lesser 'female type', through opression, and time wastage spent in pursuit of what you'd consider useless recitations, prayers and fast, are still 'quasi schooled'!

It may be that the gulfs will wash us down:
It may be we shall touch the Happy Isles,
And see the great Achilles, whom we knew.
Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.--- Tennyson
peace!
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