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Noor
10-13-2007, 12:15 AM
:sl: and Good day,


I pose these questions to the fellow Muslims and non-Muslims on this forum.

Has Islam played a major role in the development of western civilization? In teaching history, is it imperative to mention Muslim presence in the West? What was Islam's role in shaping the advanced world we live in today?

Please refer to the 10th C. to early 20th C.





:w:
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- Qatada -
10-13-2007, 01:12 PM
:salamext:


Just want to add in:


" Discover 1000 years of missing history and explore the fascinating Muslim contribution to present day Science, Technology, Arts and Civilisation."

http://muslimheritage.com/

http://www.1001inventions.com/



i'd say yeah.
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Md Mashud
10-13-2007, 02:17 PM
Alot of Islamic discoveries pre 13th century (science and medical, legal) were implemented in Western society as we know as today
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wilberhum
10-14-2007, 06:31 PM
Has Islam played a major role in the development of western civilization?
Of course. But so has many groups.
In teaching history, is it imperative to mention Muslim presence in the West?
If you are teaching Real History, then the same answer, Of course.
What was Islam's role in shaping the advanced world we live in today?
This is not the place to publish a book. That is much to large a subjectl.
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snakelegs
10-14-2007, 08:12 PM
i am weak in history, but i would say yes.
i think the muslims were an important bridge - they brought much of the older knowledge to the europeans and added to it themselves.
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Keltoi
10-14-2007, 08:59 PM
The Hellenistic era, which was of course pre-Islam, was the first truly "globalized" period in world history. This period had a major impact on the middle east and beyond. I would think that Western culture, meaning mainly Greek and Roman culture, had more of an impact than any other on the world as a whole. The point being, Western civilization pre-dates Islam by a good stretch of time. Now if you are simply referring to modern Western civilization, then I would say Arabs and Persians have obviously had an impact on certain aspects of life in the modern age. Not sure Islam as a religion has impacted Western civilization in any significant way, besides the militant contact beginning in the 9th century. That doesn't take away from Arab and Persian contribution however.
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جوري
10-14-2007, 09:10 PM
if we are going to go by impact and a long stretch of time.. then frankly pharonic, babylonian, phoenician, Mesopotamia, Persia, India all have had great contributions to history that very much pre-date the 'Hellenistic period' -- but who is counting I still say Islamic contributions have been the absolute best and Islam predominates those parts mentioned above, it fostered refined and calibrated their contributions.. Enough what Ibn Rushd contributed let alone the rest of the Muslim scholars to a very dark medieval west!

peace!
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Keltoi
10-14-2007, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
if we are going to go by impact and a long stretch of time.. then frankly pharonic, babylonian, phoenician, Mesopotamia, Persia, India all have had great contributions to history that very much pre-date the 'Hellenistic period' -- but who is counting I still say Islamic contributions have been the absolute best and Islam predominates those parts mentioned above, it fostered refined and calibrated their contributions.. Enough what Ibn Rushd contributed let alone the rest of the Muslim scholars to a very dark medieval west!

peace!
Okay, what Islamic contributions have been the "absolute best"?
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Amadeus85
10-14-2007, 10:11 PM
Muslims contribution to Europe's history or civilization not only should be noticed but it is noticed. We learn about Arabs and their civilization in primary school and also in secondary school.I think that we shouldnt make it bigger than it was and we also shouldnt make it smaller than it was. The way it is shown now in school (at least in place where i was taught) is the most balanced i think.
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Keltoi
10-14-2007, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Muslims contribution to Europe's history or civilization not only should be noticed but it is noticed. We learn about Arabs and their civilization in primary school and also in secondary school.I think that we shouldnt make it bigger than it was and we also shouldnt make it smaller than it was. The way it is shown now in school (at least in place where i was taught) is the most balanced i think.
What contributions were you taught about in school?
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Amadeus85
10-14-2007, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
What contributions were you taught about in school?
Well, now you are checking my poor memory :mmokay: .
But seriously, in school in Poland we have about 2 lessons in school year about muslim prophet Muhammed and Arabs. The same amount in primary school as in secondary school as i remember.So as far as i remember we learn that Arabs made some inventions in maths, especially alghebra, in medicine, and in astronomy (forgive me but i dont remember exactly).Since Arabs conquered Spain, they brought there greeks' philosphers books. This is all that i remember.
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جوري
10-14-2007, 10:23 PM
you may read about them here

http://www.1001inventions.com/index....tSectionID=309

I have also made tons of posts about gifts given to Charlagmagne by Harun Ar-Rachid, I have made posts about IBn Rushd, Ibn Sina etc, I don't know if I have not made a post yet about 'Zeryab'. I doubt any of you have even heard of him.. anyhow there were many and too numerous to count for you to take a stab at each and make them an object of ridicule of low rank or importance.. Anyone familiar with history that isn't Daniel pipe or his ilk will attest that volumes of Islamic contributions can't be summed up in a paragraph on some random forum..

peace!
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Woodrow
10-14-2007, 10:27 PM
I know this wasn't directed to me, but from my earliest school days the contributions I remember the best were:

Algebra
Navigation
Topology

and

Astronomy.

Of course i remember them the best because they later became important subjects for me in at least one of my early occupations.
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جوري
10-14-2007, 10:30 PM
you may read of Zeryab here

Ibn Rushd

Zehrawi father of surgery

here is a list of others, you may certainly teach yourself through google.. sometimes google is a substitute for school-- unfortunate for some who write before they read.. but that is what one gets in a poor country like Poland-- subpar folks who think by confabulating publically that they are making well-informed contributions...

Jabir Ibn Haiyan died 803
Mohammad Bin Musa al-Khawarizmi died 840
Yaqub Ibn Ishaq al-Kindi 800
Thabit Ibn Qurra 836
Ali Ibn Rabban al-Tabari 838
Abu Abdullah al-Battani 858
Al-Farghani 860
Mohammad Ibn Zakariya al-Razi 864
Abu al-Nasr al-Farabi 870

Abul Hasan Ali al-Masu'di died 957
Abu al-Qasim al-Zahrawi 936 (see also)
Abul Wafa Muhammad al-Buzjani 940
Abu Ali Hasan Ibn al-Haitham 965
Abu al-Hasan al-Mawardi 972
Abu Raihan al-Biruni 973
Ibn Sina 980 (see also)

Omar al-Khayyam 1044
Abu Hamid al-Ghazali 1058
Abu Marwan Ibn Zuhr 1091
Al-Idrisi 1099

Ibn Rushd 1128

Ibn al-Baitar died 1248
Nasir al-Din al-Tusi 1201
Jalal al-Din Rumi 1207
Ibn al-Nafis 1213

Ibn Khaldun 1332
Ibn Sina - doctor of doctors
El Zahrawi - father of surgery
Ibn Battuta - the great traveller
Caesarean Birth
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barney
10-14-2007, 10:45 PM
Arabic numerals is the most obvious influence that I can think of. I know thats technically Arabic & not "islamic" no more than Fish and Chips is English and not "Church of England", but without arabic numerals, Binary would have been tricky and Computors would have never been developed.
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جوري
10-14-2007, 11:34 PM
Islam wasn't just a religion but a state.. thus anything in the way of advancement in science/art/poetry or whatever else will be considered 'Islamic' under any of the Muslim empires that existed whether under the Abbasids Fatimids, the Umayyads Andalusia or even the Ottomans....That whole divide and conquer attitude and impugning achievements-- you may save as a war tactic for the next set of people your country wishes to monopolize-- we are not buying it here!

cheers!
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barney
10-15-2007, 12:26 AM
I was wondering how you would defensively kneejerk that one. Not everything I write is a critisism of the religion..sheesh. I was praising a arabic acheivement and you go all "Dirty kuffar"
Still........ since you insist on feeding me ammo, i'll ask this.

Interesting idea but, does the collapse of these empires and their repression, brutality, corruption and stagnation also count as Islamic...or is it just the achievements? Or was all that the west's fault?
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Joe98
10-15-2007, 12:56 AM
Numbers

The current numbering system came from central India but it was the Arabs who utilised the numbers and the West adopted numbers from the Arabs.

Roman numerals cannot be used to do complex mathematical calculations and so it is the West adopted the Arabic numerals which allowed complex calculations that led to the moon landings.

Note the Arabs had no concept of zero as a number and this was a Western invention.
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جوري
10-15-2007, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by barney
I was wondering how you would defensively kneejerk that one. Not everything I write is a critisism of the religion..sheesh. I was praising a arabic acheivement and you go all "Dirty kuffar"
Still........ since you insist on feeding me ammo, i'll ask this.

Interesting idea but, does the collapse of these empires and their repression, brutality, corruption and stagnation also count as Islamic...or is it just the achievements? Or was all that the west's fault?
I blame the current state on the last of the ottaman's, and I'd get into that except it won't be interesting, anyone can read about it from proper sources which city states they stripped of an army so that when your homies came colonizing there was no one left to fend them off.. I blame your England for half the ills that befell most of the world from China to India to Hong Kong to the Arabic world even the states though they managed to be rid themselves of you!.. I detest your British isle to a level that I can't possibly describe in words....

I find it delicious you speak of such noble human attributes and diplomacy.. I can only pass it off as reaction formation on your part. Either that or you are looking to tickle us? I suppose by hoping or assuming most of us were born after 1995?

I don't think much of either your praises or criticism... they don't rock my world whether you wish to acknowledge them or not is inconsequential to me... You won't be graded on this I assure you... It is just a man's opinion... men's lot is to rot in the ground so you can see in the scheme of things what is to remain and what will be left behind...

cheers..
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barney
10-15-2007, 01:08 AM
yeah, i had heard that, but put it down to anti-muslim propaganda by people who would deny that muslims acheived anything of note.

Any links?
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barney
10-15-2007, 01:09 AM
Ahh, but is England a state? or is it just the individuals who make it!!!
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جوري
10-15-2007, 01:17 AM
About numbers and Zero if our dear reader are interested in info not dispensed by bumpkinly country boys...

Zero, Key To Numbers



It was once impossible to rely on numbers, even for counting until Arab mathematicians showed the world how to use the zero.
Picture a hillside thousands upon thousands of years ago. A man emerges from a cave. His brow is heavy, his arms long and muscular; around his waist he wears a tattered animal skin. Below him a herd of wild horses passes. Back into the cave he rushes and, with grunts and gestures, excitedly tells his clan that "many, many" horses are passing. It's the best he can do. He has no way of telling them that 30, 40 or 50 horses are in the herd, for at best he knows three numbers—one, two, and "many." Civilizations will rise and fall and even his own form will change before he learns to count with the ease and exactness of numbers like 30, 40 or 50. Developing an easy-to-use, easy-to-learn system of numbers was, indeed, a milestone reached only after long struggle. In fact, man has had such a system only for about 1,000 years—and a form of man has been on earth for an estimated 1,750,000 years.


What took so long? What is so difficult about our numbering system—the system that everyone easily learns and then takes for granted? The answer to those questions is bound up in the larger meaning and application of zero. The difference between 5 and 50 is only a zero, but that little circle is actually one of the world's greatest inventions.


The decimal system (in which each unit is ten times greater than the preceding unit) is based on nine numbers and the zero. It makes calculations with infinitely large and infinitely small numbers possible by allowing numbers to expand to infinity on either side of a decimal point —numbers greater than one to the left of the point and numbers less than one to the right. Without such a system, modern astronomy, physics and chemistry would be impossible—or, for that matter, all science. Governments could not determine annual budgets, citizens could not figure out income taxes and even totaling the weekly grocery bill would be quite a chore.


Thus, while the zero is used as a symbol for nothing, it actually means everything in combination with our nine basic numbers, providing these numbers with an infinite variety of value. The zero's creation opened the way for the entire concept of algebraic plus and minus numbers, which we use not only to calculate with, but also to identify temperature, electrical charge and discharge and to navigate planes and ships. Speaking less practically and more poetically, the zero serves as a reference point around which man can talk confidently about infinity.


Most of the ancient civilizations had numbering systems and symbols to express their numbers in written form. But without the zero even the simplest arithmetic—addition or subtraction—was next to impossible. The earliest written symbols for numbers were probably lines scratched in soft clay: one line meant one, two lines meant two and so on. Then additional symbols were invented to represent larger quantities. Sumerian merchants in 3,000 B.C. used a system of number symbols on bills, notes and receipts. A 5,000-year-old Babylonian tablet records a payment by clay check. Permanent records of numbers were improved upon by the Egyptians, who used paint instead of clay.


The Greeks had to memorize 27 different symbols just to express the numbers 1 through 999. Each 8, for example, in 888 was represented by a different symbol. Just as unwieldy was the Roman system of using the first letter of the name of the number: 100, for example, was represented by the "C" of centum and 1,000 by the "M" of mille. The Roman who wanted to write down the quantity 1,000,000 had no choice other than writing a thousand M's. And to multiply his clumsy numerals was just about impossible: XLVII x IX x MCMXIV = ? When faced with such a problem, the Roman discarded his written symbols and turned to his counting board, or abacus. All of Europe, through its Dark Ages, followed Rome's example.


Far to the east, however, as early as 200 B.C., Hindu scholars were working with nine oddly shaped symbols and a dot that eventually would bring order out of a world of mathematical chaos. The dot and nine symbols were the earliest known forerunners of the numbers 0, 1,2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. Comprised of only ten symbols and based on multiples of ten, the Hindu system was easily learned and easily used. It was the dot that made the system unique because with the dot came a written expression of the place system of numbers—the system that allows the nine basic numbers in different combinations to represent every possible quantity and assigns a different value to the nine numbers depending on their place or position in a series.

Who first thought of using a dot as the tenth number is not nown. But it can be supposed that a Hindu, working on his abacus, wanted to keep a written record of the answers on his abacus. One day he used a symbol (.) which he called sunya to indicate a column on his counting board in which he had moved no beads. Sunya the dot was not zero the number. It was merely a mark to indicate empty space.

The abacus he was using had already been around a long time. On it, to represent 33, for example, he moved three beads on each of the bottom two rows to the right. For 303, he also moved three beads to the right on each of two rows—but between these rows he left an untouched, empty row. It was for the empty row that the unknown Hindu used the symbol (.). The word sunya , standing for the dot, means "empty" or "blank."

The concept of sunya was probably brought by traders from India to Baghdad in the ninth century, when that city was one of the world's greatest centers of learning. Arab merchants and mathematicians immediately recognized the versatility and uniqueness of sunya and further developed its concept. The modem word cipher comes from the Arabic sifr, which was derived from the Hindu sunya. Latin scholars translated sifr as zephyrum, which in Italian became zepiro and zeuero and in English was shortened to zero. The German world for zero—ziffer— and the French chiffre also derive from the Arabic sifr. All of these words came in time to mean much more than zero. Cipher, for example, took on at least a half dozen meanings. It can refer to zero or to any one of the Arabic numerals; it also can mean to compute , or it can mean a complex system of secret writing.

When the new numbering system made its way into Europe through the Moors and became known as Arabic notation, it was already the subject of thorough exploration by Arab scholars. As early as 825 A.D. Arab mathematician al-Khowarizmi had written a book on the zero, and in 976 the scholar Muhammad ibn Ahmad had noted in his Keys of the Sciences that if in a calculation no number appeared in the place of tens, a little circle should be used "to keep the rows." The first comprehensive European analysis of the zero and the nine other Arabic numerals was made in 1202 by Italian mathematician Leonardo Fibonacci, who had studied under an Arab tutor.

Despite the advantages of a numbering system with zeros "to keep the rows," it took Europeans a long time to give up Roman numerals and an even longer time to understand the Arabic numerals, especially the zero. "It seemed impossible for them to comprehend how 3 was three in the units place and 30 in a combination such as 35. Instead they wrote 305 for 35. If 30 was thirty and 5 was five, what could be more logical? Combinations with Roman numerals . . . produced such hybrids as X5 for 15, C35 for 135, and MCCC35 for 1335." Even those who accepted Arabic numerals didn't agree on what they should look like, and it was not until well after the invention of printing in the fifteenth century that Arabic numerals were standardized in design.

Since then, the decimal system with its numbers expanding in multitples of ten on both sides of a point has proved the wisdom of the Hindu who saw the need for a symbol "to keep the rows" and the Arab scholars who recognized sunya's immense significance, developed its concept even further, and then brought it to the attention of the world.

Since then, numbers really have been something you can count on.




This article appeared on pages 14-15 of the November 1961 print edition of Saudi Aramco World.

See Also: NUMBERS

source

:w:
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جوري
10-15-2007, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by barney
Ahh, but is England a state? or is it just the individuals who make it!!!
Both! Although some great individuals came from there..

Marmaduke pickthal was one..

cheers
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barney
10-15-2007, 02:00 AM
I would also add the Astrolabe as the forerunner to the sextant.

Without the Sextant the European powers would never have established their empires, so its a very powerful tool.

The Stirrup i think was a Muslim invention originally, but never took off until it was adopted by the west and enabled Cavalry to become Heavies, which completley revolutionised warfare. again enabeling the empires.
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Keltoi
10-15-2007, 12:11 PM
The Mayans also used zero. I like to look to the Olmec and Mayan civilizations in the New World because they were a completely isolated case of a civilization simply advancing in thought and innovation. Now of course there are theories about ancient contact between the New World and the Old, but the evidence of this is minimal at best.
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جوري
10-16-2007, 02:06 AM
Keltoi did you watch Gibson's 'Apocalypto'?
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Keltoi
10-16-2007, 02:42 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Keltoi did you watch Gibson's 'Apocalypto'?
No, but I understand the basic gist of the film, with an emphasis on human sacrifice. What is your point? I didn't say I wanted to be a Mayan citizen, I said those people understood the concept of zero and used it in their rather complex calender. Plus, they made advancements in astronomy and architecture without outside influence of any kind.
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جوري
10-16-2007, 02:50 AM
Actually.. I thought the 'sacrifice' portion was ancillary and I wasn't quite sure why it was there?.. on my part I felt it was a justification for 'white man invasion' as to evoke the notion that those folk were 'barbarians' and were better off colonized.. maybe it was more innocent on gibson's part? I suppose he wanted to give a taste of all that went down.. But indeed you got to see some great architecture,family life, wise planning and some innovative use of natural resources... but there were some annoying parts to it I'll admit it.
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