PDA

View Full Version : Trinity Questions - MUSLIMS ONLY PLEASE!!!!



Michael
10-17-2007, 12:13 PM
I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).

In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
Malaikah
10-17-2007, 12:46 PM
:sl:

I can't think of anything expect that we have no proof he ever said that. (The bible is not proof for Muslims).
Reply

Bassam Zawadi
10-17-2007, 01:09 PM
1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. This is just not the case. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C. K. Barrett writes:

Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.” [23]

2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.

At the Last Supper, the disciples were trying to find out who would deny the Christ. They said, literally, “Not I am, Lord” (Matt. 26:22 and 25). No one would say that the disciples were trying to deny that they were God because they were using the phrase “Not I am.” The point is this: “I am” was a common way of designating oneself, and it did not mean you were claiming to be God.

3. The argument is made that because Jesus was “before” Abraham, Jesus must have been God. There is no question that Jesus figuratively “existed” in Abraham’s time. However, he did not actually physically exist as a person; rather he “existed” in the mind of God as God’s plan for the redemption of man. A careful reading of the context of the verse shows that Jesus was speaking of “existing” in God’s foreknowledge. Verse 56 is accurately translated in the King James Version, which says: “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.” This verse says that Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ, which is normally considered by theologians to be the day when Christ conquerors the earth and sets up his kingdom. That would fit with what the book of Hebrews says about Abraham: “For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God” (Heb. 11:10). Abraham looked for a city that is still future, yet the Bible says Abraham “saw” it. In what sense could Abraham have seen something that was future? Abraham “saw” the Day of Christ because God told him it was coming, and Abraham “saw” it by faith. Although Abraham saw the Day of Christ by faith, that day existed in the mind of God long before Abraham. Thus, in the context of God’s plan existing from the beginning, Christ certainly was “before” Abraham. Christ was the plan of God for man’s redemption long before Abraham lived. We are not the only ones who believe that Jesus’ statement does not make him God:

To say that Jesus is “before” him is not to lift him out of the ranks of humanity but to assert his unconditional precedence. To take such statements at the level of “flesh” so as to infer, as “the Jews” do that, at less than fifty, Jesus is claiming to have lived on this earth before Abraham (8:52 and 57), is to be as crass as Nicodemus who understands rebirth as an old man entering his mother’s womb a second time (3:4). [24]

4. In order for the Trinitarian argument that Jesus’ “I am” statement in John 8:58 makes him God, his statement must be equivalent with God’s “I am” statement in Exodus 3:14. However, the two statements are very different. While the Greek phrase in John does mean “I am,” the Hebrew phrase in Exodus actually means “to be” or “to become.” In other words God is saying, “I will be what I will be.” Thus the “I am” in Exodus is actually a mistranslation of the Hebrew text, so the fact that Jesus said “I am” did not make him God.

Buzzard, pp. 93-97

Dana, Letter 21, pp. 169-171

Morgridge, pp. 120-21

Norton, pp. 242-246

Snedeker, pp. 416-418
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
10-17-2007, 01:10 PM
Malaikah is right. If he wants to proove something with the Bible, then he first has to proove that the Bible is authentic, right? Except that, there are places in the Bible where Jesus undoubtfully claims that he (a.s.) is not God, so it would be ridiculous to take one part of the Bible, and ignore another part... MAybe this could help at least a little a bit: Common Christian Misbeliefs addressed in Question and Answer format.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
Abdul Fattah
10-17-2007, 02:28 PM
Since it's supposed to be a thread for Islamic view only and not for debate I moved this on request from comparative to here.
Reply

tarek29
10-17-2007, 04:05 PM
Originally Posted by Michael
I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).

In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?

Verse commonly used to support the divinity of Jesus is John 8:58: “Jesus said unto them, ‘Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.’ ”

This verse is taken to imply that Jesus existed prior to his appearance on earth.

The conclusion drawn from it is that Jesus must be God, since his existence predates his birth on earth. However, the concept of the pre-existence of the prophets, and of man in general, exists in both the Old Testament, as well as in the Qur‘aan.

Jeremiah described himself in The Book of Jeremiah 1:4-5 as follows: “ 5Now the word of the Lord came to me saying, 5 ‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.’ ”


Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs 8:23-27, to have said, “23Ages ago I was set up at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water, 25Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world 27When he established the heavens, I was there.”


According to Job 38:4 and 21, God addresses Prophet Job as follows: “4Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding... 21You Know, for you were born then, and the number of your days is great!”


In the Qur‘aan, Chapter al-A‘raaf, (7):172, God informed that man existed in the spiritual form before the creation of the physical world.

“When your Lord gathered all of Aadam’s descendants [before creation] and made them bear witness for themselves, saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They all replied: Yes indeed, we bear witness. [That was] so you could not say on the Day of Judgement: ‘We were unaware of this.’ ”

Consequently, Prophet Jesus’ statement, “Before Abraham was, I am,” cannot be used as evidence of his divinity. Within the context of John 8:54-58, Jesus is purported to have spoken about God’s knowledge of His prophets, which predates the creation of this world.

Peace
Reply

Michael
10-17-2007, 05:45 PM
Thanks everyone for this. The lady I am debating didn't bring up this verse when I challenged her to show me just where Jesus said "I am God" - instead she referred to his trial. This is what she wrote:

What is the arguement? Why is it so important to hear my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, say that He is God? Does not the reaction at His trial prove that He was admitting it? The jews were appalled because they understood Jesus as saying that. Christ quoted from Ps 110 and the prophecy of Daniel (Dan 7:13). Only God can sit at the right hand of the Power. And the jews understood that He was saying exactly that: that HE is God. And since worshipping is for God, then of course we worship Him.

The jews crucified Christ BECAUSE He told them that He is God. But, their arguement to Pontius Pilate was that Christ was a rebel to the Roman Empire. See how they lied?

Matthew 26; 63-65

But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I PUT YOU UNDER OATH BY THE LIVING GOD: TELL US IF YOU ARE THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD!"

Jesus said to him, "IT IS AS YOU SAID, NEVERTHELESS, I SAY TO YOU, HEREAFTER YOU WILL SEE THE SON OF MAN SITTING ATTHE RIGHT HAND OF THE POWER, AND COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Then the high priest tore his clothes, saying:"He has spoken blasphemy? What further need do we have of witnesses? Look, now you have heard His blasphemy!"
Any help?
Reply

MadeenJibreel
10-17-2007, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Michael
Thanks everyone for this. The lady I am debating didn't bring up this verse when I challenged her to show me just where Jesus said "I am God" - instead she referred to his trial. This is what she wrote:



Any help?
:w:

I believe Khalid Yaseen in one of his videos said that that verse is not read as ""IT IS AS YOU SAID..." but rather as "YOU SAY THAT I AM.." which gives completely different meaning. So, it's not him who is claiming that, but they. After that, Pilate found no fault with him (as he did not claim he is the son of god).

BTW, ask the Christian lady: where is it that Jesus' name appears in the Old Testament? Explicitely? Nowhere is the answer....you can also ask her, what happens to those people who lived before Isa, alayhis-selam, as they did not him? So how is he "suppose to save them"?? :?
Reply

Ummu Sufyaan
10-18-2007, 04:46 AM
:sl:
What is the arguement? Why is it so important to hear my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, say that He is God?
how do you know that your saviour is Jesus, when you dont know/cant prove that he said that?

but then again, you can just ague that since the bible has been changes sooooooo many times by the chruch, what can garantee me, that this is not the word of man.

thats all for now. i dont kow if it is much a help.
:sl:
Reply

Grace Seeker
10-18-2007, 05:16 AM
Just peeking in to read, not to debate.

:::turns around and walks out of room, whistling:::
Reply

tarek29
10-18-2007, 09:20 AM
Originally Posted by Michael
Thanks everyone for this. The lady I am debating didn't bring up this verse when I challenged her to show me just where Jesus said "I am God" - instead she referred to his trial. This is what she wrote:



Any help?
First of all Diciples of Jesus (pbuh) were not there!

Second they were always on the run, hunted, killed, hiding in mountains!

Third they wanted to kill him becuase He were Prophet and they didnt want to loose control and power, God cannot be that weak that all what He did is some Miracles that for Real GOD, this is children playing in Circus, this if we can compare it like that from first place!

The Intresting that Jesus (pbuh) succefuly told us in the bible that he is Prophet send by God, supported with SIGNS (miracles), that he from himself cannot do nothing, but HE FAILED to say once that he is God !?

and I ask how cannot he do nothing and at same time he is part of God and EQUAL to other parts!?

If you have three equal Parts, how come they be equal if each one can do things the other cannot do!?

Father creat but cannot be Merciful so he need the son!

Son cannot do anything without father, only save people!

Holy spirit that give life and cannot creat, or save even cannot inspire anything right, and even stoped of inspiring!

And then the three are Equal! :mmokay:

Sorry I went to another subject but we should look at the picture as whole!

returning to the same subject you can read this small book concerning this subject of Shiekh Ahmed Deedat may Allah (swt) rest him in peace:

http://www.jamaat.net/crux/Crux1-5.html

May Allah (swt) guide us all!

Peace
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
10-18-2007, 09:44 AM
Jews crucified jesus....and jesus died....

How man can kill God....?
Sorry for moving out of topic......
Reply

NoName55
10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
"God" was created from the seed of David: "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of
the SEED of David according to the flesh." (Romans, 1:3)

The Powerless "God"
(Jesus) said: "I can of mine own self do nothing." (John, 5:30)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Time. Jesus said: "But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the
angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father." (Mark, 13:32)

"God" Was Ignorant of the Season: "And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he (Jesus) was
hungry: and seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find anything thereon: and
when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet." (Mark, 11:12-13)

"God" Learnt Through Experience: "Learned he obedience by the things which he sufered." (Hebrews, 5:8)

Spiritual Development of "God": "And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom." (Luke,
2:40)

Mental, Physical and Moral Development of "God": "And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor
with God and man." (Luke, 2:52)

"God" Was 12 Years Old When His Parents Took Him to Jerusalem: "Now his parents went to Jerusalem
every year at the feast of the passover. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the
custom of the feast." (Luke, 2:41-42)

"God" Was the Son of Joseph: "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, we have found him, of whom
Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph" (John, 1:45)

Brothers and Brothers-in-law of "God": "And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their
synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty
works? Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and
Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence hath this man all these things? (Matthew,
13:54-56)

"God" was the fruit of the loins of David: "Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with
an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne."
(Acts, 2:30)

The Ancestors of "God": "The generations of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham." (Matthew,
1:1)

The Gender of "God": "And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was
called Jesus." (Luke, 2:21)

How Mary Conceived and Delivered "God". Mary conceived Jesus like any other woman: "The days were
accomplished that she should be delivered," (Luke, 2:6) which means that she went through all the normal
stages of pregnancy. Nor was her delivery any different from other expectant mothers: "And she being with
child cried, travelling in birth, and pained to be delivered." (Revelation, 12:2)

"God" Suckled The Paps of a Woman: "And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the
company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou
hast sucked." (Luke, 11:27)

The Country of Origin of "God": "Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king.
(Matthew, 2:1)

The Occupation of "God": "Jesus was a carpenter by trade." (Mark, 6:3), "and the son of a carpenter."
(Matthew, 13:55)

The Transport of "God": "Behold, thy king cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass." (Matthew, 21:5)

The Transport of "God": "And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon." (John, 12:14)

The Wining and Dining of "God": "The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, behold a man
gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners." (Matthew, 11:9; Luke, 7:34)

The Poverty of "God": "And Jesus saith unto him, the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but
the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." (Matthew, 8:20)

The Meagre Possessions of "God": "Shoes of Jesus" (Luke, 3:16), "Garments and coat of Jesus" (John, 19:23)

"God" Was a Devout Jew: "And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed
into a solitary place, and there prayed." (Mark, 1:35)

"God" Was a Loyal Subject and taxpayer: Jesus was a good citizen, he was loyal to Caesar. He said: "Render therefore unto
Caesar

The Devil Tempted "God" For 40 Days: "And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness. And he
was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan." (Mark, 1:12-13)

The Devil Tempted "God" Continuously: "And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from
him for a season." (Luke, 4:13)

Like the Sinners, "God" Was Tempted In All Things: "But (he) was in all points tempted like as we are, yet
without sin." (Hebrews, 4:15)

True God Cannot be Tempted With Evil: "God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
(James, 1:13)

Only The Ungodly Are Tempted With Evil: "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own
lust, and enticed." (James, 1:14)
Page

The Confession and Repentance of "God": before the beginning of his public ministry: "Jesus was baptized by
John the Baptist" (Matthew, 3:13), "which signified the confession of sins" (Matthew, 3:6), "and repentance
from sins (Matthew, 3:11).

"God" Did Not Come to Save the Sinners: "And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve
asked of him the parable. And he said unto them, unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of
God: but unto them that without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not
perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their
sins should be forgiven them." (Mark, 4:10-12)

THE RACIST "GOD"

"God" Was a Tribal Jew: "The lion of the tribe of Juda." (Revelation, 5:5)

"God" Came For The Jews Only: "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 15:24)

Racial Discrimination of "God": "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the
way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." (Matthew, 10:5-6)

According to "God", The Gentiles Are Dogs: "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
(matthew, 15:26)

The Kingdom of "God": And he (Jesus) shall reign over THE HOUSE OF JACOB for ever; and of his
kingdom there shall be no end." (Luke, 1:33)

The Titles of "God": "The king of the Jews" (Matthew, 2:2), "The king of Israel" (John, 1:49; 12:13)

A "GOD" UNLIKE THE GOD

A Hungry "God":
"And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungered."
(Matthew 4:2), "Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered." (Matthew, 21:18), "and on the
morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry." (Mark, 11:12)

A Thirsty "God": "(He) saith, I thirst." (John, 19:28)

A Sleepy "God": "He was asleep." (Matthew, 8:24), "He fell asleep" (Luke, 8:23), "And he was in the hinder
part of the ship, asleep on a pillow." (Mark, 4:38)

A Tired "God": Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well." (John, 4:6)

A Groaning "God":
"He groaned in the spirit, and was troubled." (John, 11:33), "Jesus therefore again
groaning in himself cometh to the grave." (John, 11:38)

A Weeping "God": "Jesus wept " (John 11:35)

A Sorrowing "God": "And (he) began to be sorrowful and very heavy." (Matthew 26:37). "Then saith he unto
them, my soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death." (Matthew, 26:38)

A Hysterical "God": "And (he) began to be soreamazed and to be very heavy." (Mark, 14:33)

A Weak "God": "And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him." (Luke, 22:43)
THE WARRING "GOD"

The Strong-Arm Method of "God": "And he went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold therein,
and them that bought." (Luke, 19:45). "And the Jews' passover was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem,
and found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: and
when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen;
and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables." (John, 2:13-15)

The "God" of War: Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but
a sword." (Matthew, 10:34)

The Sabre-Rattling "God": Jesus said: "And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
(Luke, 22:36)

The "GOD" ON THE RUN

"God" Was Panic-Stricken:
"After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry,
because the Jews sought to kill him." (John, 7:1)

"God" Walked in Fear of the Jews: "Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to
death. Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews." (John, 11:53-54)

"God" Has Shown a Clean Pair of Heels: "Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their
hand." (John, 10:39)

"God" Fled in Disguise: "Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the
temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." (John, 8:59)

THE CAPTURE OF "GOD"

A Friend Betrayed the Secret Hiding Place of "God":
"And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place:
for Jesus off-times resorted thither with his disciples. Judas then, having received a band of man and officers
from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons." (John, 18:2-3)
"God" Was Arrested, Bound and Led Away: "Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took
Jesus, and bound him, and led him away." (John, 18:12-13)

"God" Was Humiliated: "And the men that held Jesus mocked him, and smote him. And when they had
blindfolded him, they struck him on the face." (Luke, 22:63-64). "Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted
him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands." (Matthew, 26:67)

"God" Was Defenseless: "One of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand", he said:
"Why smitest thou me?" (John, 18:22-23)

"God" Was Condemned to Death: "And they all condemned him to be guilty of death." (Mark, 14:64). "They
answered and said, he is guilty of death." (Matthew, 26:66)
The Dumb and Docile "God": "He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his
shearer, so opened he not his mouth." (Acts, 8:32)

THE END OF "GOD"

The Dying "God":
"And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost." (Mark, 15:37)
The "God" That Was Supposed Dead and Defunct: "Christ died." (Romans, 5:6). "He was dead". (John,
19:33)

The Corpse of "God":
"he (Joseph of Arimathaea) went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered." (Matthew, 27:58)

The Shroud of "God": "And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth." (Matthew,
27:59)

The Orbituary of The Late And Lamented "God": "Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified
God, saying, certainly this was a righteous man." (Luke, 23:47)

EPILOGUE

This post is for the sake of Muslim kids on this site who are in danger of being misled by clever threads

According to these self-appointed apostles of Christ, Jesus is God because: (i) "HE SHARED THE NATURE
OF GOD", and (ii) because "IN EVERY WAY HE IS LIKE GOD". But according to the quotations of the
Bible given above, we find that Jesus did neither SHARE THE NATURE OF GOD nor is he IN EVERY
WAY LIKE GOD. He is, therefore, definitely NOT God! The onus to prove that Jesus is God now rests with
these Christians. Either they must prove that Jesus is God, or they must admit that they are polytheists, (believers in
more than one God).

DESPITE ALL THEIR TRICKERY, THEY WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVE THAT JESUS IS GOD!!

These preachers in Christ, will never succeed in convincing the Muslims that Jesus was anything
other than a natural man and a Prophet of God, sent unto the house of Israel to bear the good news of the
coming of the KINGDOM OF GOD!

Note: adapted with modifications from an epilogue by Brother Ahmed Deedat
Reply

boriqee
10-27-2007, 02:08 AM
wow, I will just as a 2 center

I said soemthing what Bassam said in that When he said "before Abraham was"

then according tot he context of what is being said, it is meant that he was part of the "qadr' or the pre determination, the will of Allah.

It is similar to me saying before Adam was, I am, meaning I was, and you were and everything we see was, and the people who will come 100 years from now were before Adam was. That is because they are all form the will of Allah from His qadr, and we were eons before He even created creation. That does not denote some kind of divinity for us. But thats the problem with the christian mind, It somehow becomes either crippled to intelelctual in-eptivity with regards to language and tradition far more superior in vasteness and elequence, or for those who rise beyond being crippled, they subject themselves to a bias unmatched by any sectarian group in the history of mankind.
Reply

Bassam Zawadi
01-30-2008, 07:46 AM
http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/refuting_trinity
Reply

جوري
01-30-2008, 08:01 AM
That was a great post by Br. Noname
a shame he goes, yet worthless dissolute scum, who are completely unrestrained by convention or morality are allowed to leave such comments in my PM box..

Yet the idiotic mods leave her anti american comments up, but this time in only the arabic.
This forum is full of a bunch of salafi nutjobs anyways. It is a place run by nothing but bigotry, homophobia
. And I do not believe in god, and can not wait until you die and never come back. But IF you do come back, if there is some judgment, I hope this god sculls you for your ruthless ways.
Reply

sur
01-30-2008, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by Michael
I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).

In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?
COI(children of isreal) asked Eesa that who he knew of Ibraheem??? So he replied to them by saying that "Before Abraham was GOD", & God is the ONE who told Jesus(Eesa) about Abraham.

Like God told Prophet Muhammad About previous prophets.



It was same God that talked to Mosa:-
If “I AM” here refers to GOD of Moses:-
Exodus:3:14“And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you”
Then it also refers to GOD(not Jesus) here:-JN 8:57“Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John:8:58“Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily,I say unto you, Before Abraham was,I AM.”
Which means that before Abraham GOD was present & HE gave me(Jesus) knowledge of Abraham.
Reply

Muslim Woman
01-30-2008, 10:02 AM
:sl:


u may invite Christians to watch video of Dr. Zakir Naik.

few lines from his lecture :

A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me".



In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary.



The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):


(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]



http://video.aol.com/video-detail/fr...god/1396859027
Reply

i_m_tipu
04-07-2008, 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
This statemet is enough to know he was and what was his purpose in this world.

if anyone says "I seek not my own will but the will of my Father(God)" Equivalent of meaning of arabic word Muslim.
And prophet Jesus (Peace be upon Him) was a Muslim.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Michael
I know that in the Bible, Jesus (peace be upon him) never explicitly states "I am God". However, when I told this to a Christian, they said that Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am" (John 8:58). They claim that 'I am' is God's special name, and by saying 'I am', Jesus was identifying himself with God. The Greek for "I am" is 'ego eimi', which is what the New Testament uses. The Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) translates "I AM WHO AM" in Exodus 3:14 (which is where the name comes from) as 'ego eimi ho ôn'. Where God tells Moses to say "say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent you", the Greek used for 'I AM' is 'ho ôn', not 'ego eimi'. 'ôn' is the present participle, indicating a progressive action (being).

In spite of this, how would one respond to the Christian's claims that Jesus using the name "I am" makes him God?
A sect of Muslims have invented a story which sttes that Mohammed (pbuh) said : "When Adam was in clay and water, I was there the messenger of Allah". It seems that the the worshipers of Jesus and Mohammed have received the virus from the same invented stories!
Reply

M H Kahn
07-04-2008, 03:10 PM
Allah says He is not father to any. Then why do you adduce such stories as evidences in which Allah is stated as Father of Jesus? Do they, who cite such stories, recognise that Jesus is son of Allah? Do Dr. Zakir Nayek, who often cites such verses, himself acknowledges that Jesus is the son of Allah?
Reply

suffiyan007
07-04-2008, 03:17 PM
God is father,God is son,God is holy spirit


Define:

god is father- meaning,God is father of universe,that he create his creation

god is son- for jesus christ born as a child without a dad in the womb of mary,Jesus is like a miracle to them, he can do miracle,so meaning God turning into Son...mean Jesus son of God,God is Son...Cause can be son and Father.so meaning it can transform to either one

God is Holy spirit..A holy spirit, is unseen...God transform back to Holy spirit...cause HE remain as himself....so Christian believe in trinity.



is like triangle!
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-04-2008, 03:23 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
A sect of Muslims have invented a story which sttes that Mohammed (pbuh) said : "When Adam was in clay and water, I was there the messenger of Allah". It seems that the the worshipers of Jesus and Mohammed have received the virus from the same invented stories!
even if this is an invented story , it did not make Muhammed (p) God or son of God . So , this is not the same virus :bump:
Reply

suffiyan007
07-04-2008, 03:34 PM
christian dont accept muhammad saw as prophet so they didnt mention that he son of God....!so that why what u mention....muslim woman.i agreed!
Reply

M H Kahn
07-04-2008, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:
even if this is an invented story , it did not make Muhammed (p) God or son of God . So , this is not the same virus :bump:
There are innumerable instances where Muslims deem Mohammed as a god or God's assistant. Instances are:

* They say Mohammed is omnipresent and all-hearing and they supplicate to him for intercession. Here they ascribe Allah's attributes to him.

* They say Mohammed manages the affairs of the earth from his grave. By this they ascribe the attributes of Alla to him.

* They often lie in their implication that Mohammed is the only friend of Allah. They also say Allah is pleased when His friend, that is Mohammed, is worshiped and He forgives the sins of the worshipers.

* They say it is Allah's command to supplicate to all-hearing and omnipresent Mohammed for intercession.

* A sect of them say Mohammed is none but Allah Himself in human form as he is created from Allah's light.

So it is necessary for Muslims that they themselves be unitarians in their faith and worship.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-05-2008, 04:04 AM
:sl:


Originally Posted by M H Kahn

* A sect of them say Mohammed is none but Allah Himself in human form ......
never heard of that before. If it's true , may Allah guide them , Ameen.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-05-2008, 10:03 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:


never heard of that before. If it's true , may Allah guide them , Ameen.
Have you heard of the other stories?
Reply

M H Kahn
07-05-2008, 10:25 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:

You may invite Christians to watch video of Dr. Zakir Naik..few lines from his lecture : A study of the Christian scriptures reveals that Jesus (pbuh) never claimed divinity. In fact there is not a single unequivocal statement in the entire Bible where Jesus (pbuh) himself says, "I am God" or where he says, "worship me". In fact the Bible contains statements attributed to Jesus (pbuh) in which he preached quite the contrary.The following statements in the Bible are attributed to Jesus Christ (pbuh):

(i) "My Father is greater than I."
[The Bible, John 14:28]

(ii) "My Father is greater than all."
[The Bible, John 10:29]

(iii) "…I cast out devils by the Spirit of God…."
[The Bible, Mathew 12:28]

(iv) "…I with the finger of God cast out devils…."
[The Bible, Luke 11:20]

(v) "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
If you and your mentor Dr. Nayek say that the qoted verses are not corrupt, that is they are truly the words of Jesus, then it may be unequivoclly said that you agree to the statement that God is father of Jesus. So whoever quotes the said corrupt verses as true words of Jesus, he or she must be committing shirk and kufr in that Allah has clearly said in the Quran that He is not father to any, nor has He any parent.

You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame. He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-05-2008, 01:59 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
If you and your mentor Dr. Nayek say that the qoted verses are not corrupt, that is they are truly the words of Jesus, then it may be unequivoclly said that you agree to the statement that God is father of Jesus. .

nuh. These verses are for Christians to understand that God is greater than ALL including Jesus (p) & holy Spirit (p).

You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame. He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
with due respect , I totally disagree with you.
Dr. Naik is an excellent speaker . I am sure , his lecture has removed many minconceptions against Islam , Jesus (p) , God already. Not only Muslims , but many non-Muslims also learnt many things from him.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-06-2008, 03:38 PM
:sl:

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
Have you heard of the other stories?
it's a common belief in my country that when we offer darud , angels take that darud to the Prophet (p) . Yes , many believe Allah will accept the dua / will allow the Prophet (p ) on the last day to intercession for Muslims . Some believe he is made of light of Allah but these concepts are not making him equal to God.


Fortunately here no one believes ( to
my knowledge ) that Mohammed (p) is none but Allah Himself in human form . Astagfirullah.

May Allah forgive us all & show us all the right path , Ameen.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-07-2008, 12:34 PM
"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."
[The Bible, John 5:30]
Is God father of Jesus? Surely He is not father of any. So, the verse must be corrupt and a corrupt verse should not be knowingly cited.
Reply

M H Kahn
07-07-2008, 01:08 PM
[QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:

it's a common belief in my country that when we offer darud , angels take that darud to the Prophet (p) . Yes , many believe Allah will accept the dua / will allow the Prophet (p ) on the last day to intercession for Muslims . Some believe he is made of light of Allah but these concepts are not making him equal to God.
:sl:
All ibadah (worships) are for Allah. Does the story mean that the durud is for Mohammed (pbuh)? Will he be able to give any reward to any reciter of durud? Surely not. If so, then why should it be reported to Mohammed (pbuh) ?
Reply

YusufNoor
07-07-2008, 01:20 PM
:sl:

Authu Billahi mina-Shaytan-ir Rajeem
Bismillah-ir Rahman-ir Raheem,


who necroposted? :blind:

ANYWAY, here's a "different" look at the claims of Christians in regard to their shirk,

Jesus/Isa[pbuh], according to the Christians is God, he and God are the same [Nowuthu Billah]; now in order to forgive us for something Adam [pbuh] did, Jesus/Isa[pbuh] had to be killed. now, who could [in theory] kill God except for God?????

so, according to Christians, God killed himself [because surely no-one can kill God], in order to forgives us from Adam's [pbuh] sin...

is suicide permissible in either Judaism, "Christianity" or Islam? NO! therefore to say that God HAD to violate the "Law" in order to "save us" from Adam [pbuh] violating the "Law" is ridiculous! WHO will then need to be sacrificed for God's breaking of His own Law?????

Christians also recite in their "Our Father" prayer: forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us" how come it doesn't say that they have to either kill themselves our their firstborn in order to forgive someone else??

just something to ponder....

:sl:
Reply

Grace Seeker
07-07-2008, 03:29 PM
I hope I can be forgiven making a comment. I'll not respond to individual posts, for I know I have no right to debate in this thread. But would like to say something for informational purposes that some of you may wish to think about. You see, one of the things I see happening is that assumptions are made regarding things that Christians believe regarding the Trinity that are not what Christians really believe. Often those assumptions aren't even stated in the posts. But when a person who holds those assumptions tries to educate others regarding the Trintiy they have those mistaken assumptions in their own mind when they beginning the process of analyzing, challenging, and submitting the Trinity to logic. Ultimately they reach conclusions which are posted in this thread. But if the assumptions are wrong to begin with, then those posts aren't really about the Trinity (or at least not what Christians mean by it), but something else that is not a part of our theology.

Disprove it, call it shirk, continue your discussion without correction from us Christians, but what you are disproving and calling shirk would not be the Christian Trinity, but only a stawman version of it created by those who apparently have no real knowledge of the Trinity.

So, you can knock it down, and knock it down pretty easily (I know I would certainly join with you in wanting to knock down some of the things that are being presented as if they were the Trinity here). But for all the posts (and even wisdom) this thread contains, unless you are actually discussing the concepts with regard to the Trinity that Christians actually hold to, you aren't discussing the genuine article, but the strawman others have created in its place.
Reply

Muslim Woman
07-08-2008, 06:18 AM
:w:

Originally Posted by M H Kahn

:sl:


All ibadah (worships) are for Allah. Does the story mean that the durud is for Mohammed (pbuh)? Will he be able to give any reward to any reciter of durud? Surely not. If so, then why should it be reported to Mohammed (pbuh) ?
what's the problem ? Allah sends darud to Prophet & it's the command of Allah for believers to do so .


"Verily Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet (s).

O, Believer! Send blessings upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation."




Surat Al-Ahzab (33:56).

offering darud for the Prophet (p) & reporting the matter about it does not make him equal to God. It's not worshipping Muhammed (p) but obeying God's command.

So , this practise / belief is not a shirk/blasphemy at all.
Reply

suffiyan007
07-08-2008, 03:26 PM
the "Father" means daddy...Why A God is FAther? Father is attribute to human,not to God.....Jesus is Son of Man,Not Son of God....Isa al masih ibnu maryam!...God put the Nur(Quran)and Holy spirit(Bible) into Jesus,mean is created by Clay and Allah put a light into his heart,every chosen prophets by Allah,there will be a Light(Nur).....So jesus is noT Saviour,but to speak the words of Saviour,no one to be claimed to be as God,other than God!!
Reply

M H Kahn
07-08-2008, 08:19 PM
QUOTE=Muslim Woman;970873]:w:

what's the problem ? Allah sends darud to Prophet & it's the command of Allah for believers to do so .

"Verily Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet (s). O, Believer! Send blessings upon him and salute him with a worthy salutation."

Surat Al-Ahzab (33:56).

offering darud for the Prophet (p) & reporting the matter about it does not make him equal to God. It's not worshipping Muhammed (p) but obeying God's command. So , this practise / belief is not a shirk/blasphemy at all.
Verse 33:56 is the most misunderstood one. Allah does not send durud. Whom will Allah pray for Mohammed? Allah either supports or blesses Mohammed. Allah does the same to all muttakins. Reciting durud (not sending) is command of Allah and the reward is from Allah. Why should Mohammed or his grave come into the play? Why should it be reported to him? Is he an entity to be pleased and reward? Only the misguided mushrikeens may take resort to such heinous faith and action, which is like worshiping a god besides God.
Reply

i_m_tipu
07-16-2008, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by M H Kahn
You have to save yourself from the harm of Dr. Nayek's speeches for fame.
I disagree abt Dr. Nayek.

There can b many reason which u don’t know or I do as well. We do not know any of other’s inner intention. So blaming others without knowing the real fact is an unwanted thing.

See this realistic example
Look when I speech how many ppl will listen 1-5 ppl may be..
But when top social person speeches how many will listen. It cud b 1000-100000 ppl.
So if u want 2 speak and make a large number of ppl listen to u have to b a top social person or a famous person or a powerful person or a leader of ur clan.

Rasulullah tried more to preach to the leader type person bocoz if a leader became convinced than most of his follower will b convinced with him as well.
It may looked to u Dr. Nayek is earning fame. But if u takes other angle it may look to u he may want to be a famous person in order to gain a comfortable access to a large number of ppl or top ranking ppl.

If we found he giving his effort to preaches an authentic things and make a very large number of ppl listen to it than there can’t b any doubt of his inner intention.

By the way. One think I must say you. No one is perfect. We r human. We can do mistakes.

Originally Posted by M H Kahn
He should take reason and shun preaching shirk and kufr through quotation of corrupt, biblical verses.
I think u misunderstanding this phrase totally. His idea was to prove from bible to the Christian. Who believe Bible is a word of God.

Look
U takes a quotation from Quran in order to convince a Christian that he is in wrong track.
U takes a quotation from Bible in order to convince a Christian that he is in wrong track.
What will b more workable?

As per my jurgement. I am no find him to convince a Muslim by quoting verse from Bible.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-23-2008, 10:06 AM
  2. Replies: 53
    Last Post: 11-28-2007, 01:50 AM
  3. Replies: 1008
    Last Post: 07-10-2007, 03:01 AM
  4. Replies: 140
    Last Post: 12-28-2005, 11:16 AM

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!