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جوري
10-18-2007, 05:19 PM
I post because...some might feel that treading in the scientific field should be left to scientists, the rest blindly accepting their theories... but what happens when non-scientists don't question?

this is from watson the other half of Francis Crick english biochemists who (in 1953) helped discover the helical structure of DNA (1916-2004)

DNA pioneer attacked over black intelligence claim

Claire Truscott
Thursday October 18, 2007
Guardian Unlimited
source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...193899,00.html

The DNA pioneer James Watson came under fire today from a government minister and his own research laboratory, as they rushed to condemn his claim that black people are less intelligent than whites.

As the furore over his assertions intensified, senior representatives of Dr Watson's US research centre, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, sought to distance themselves from his claims.

He made the controversial comments in a Sunday Times interview, reportedly saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".

Article continues
Dr Watson was quoted as saying he hoped everyone was equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".

The lab's trustees and its president, Bruce Stillman, said in a statement: "(These) are his own personal statements and in no way reflect the mission, goals, or principles of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's Board, administration or faculty.

"(We) vehemently disagree with these statements and are bewildered and saddened if he indeed made such comments.

"Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory does not engage in any research that could even form the basis of the statements attributed to Dr Watson."

Britain's most senior black MP and skills minister, David Lammy, said the 79-year-old's comments were "deeply offensive" and would "succeed only in providing oxygen for the BNP".

"It is a shame that a man with a record of scientific distinction should see his work overshadowed by his own irrational prejudices," he said.

"It is no surprise to me that the scientific community has condemned this outburst and I think people will recognise these comments for what they are."

Dr Watson was due to speak at London's Science Museum tomorrow, but directors called off the event last night after the comments were made public.

A spokesman said he had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate".

The geneticist made his name as one half of science's most famous double act, when he and scientist Francis Crick cracked the code for DNA.

Dr Watson is in Britain to promote his latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, published this week.

He is still due to speak at five engagements, including events at the Oxford and Cambridge universities.

He is also booked in to speak at Bristol's Festival of Ideas, hosted by Bristol University's vice-chancellor, Eric Watson.

A spokesman for the university said it respected "freedom of speech and the right of people to express their views" but expected "robust questioning of Dr Watson on his ideas".

The newly-formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, which succeeded from the Commission for Racial Equality, said it was studying the comments "in full".

Dr Watson won the 1962 Nobel Prize in Medicine with Mr Crick for their role in discovering the structure of DNA, one of the most significant scientific events of the 20th century.

But he has since regularly courted controversy, reportedly saying that a woman should have the right to abort her child if tests were able to determine it would be homosexual.

He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing that black people have higher libidos, and claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured.

Dr Watson has said: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great."

He was born in Chicago and studied in the USA and Denmark, before moving to Cambridge University, where he met Mr Crick as a student in 1951.
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Muezzin
10-18-2007, 05:54 PM
Dang. I posted this same story yesterday but had second thoughts and deleted the thread because I thought it might give rise to crazy fights 'n' stuff.

I urge everyone to keep their cool while discussing this subject.

To me, the comments have more than the faintest air of nonsense about them - it seems as if he's saying 'Well, not all black people are thick. Just most of them'. And this other stuff about genetically engineering out 'defects' in uborn children? I ain't gonna invoke Godwin's law, but someone probably will...
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Trumble
10-18-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Dang. I posted this same story yesterday but had second thoughts and deleted the thread because I thought it might give rise to crazy fights 'n' stuff.
I can't see why... I doubt there will be any disagreement between forum members, although no doubt many will be as angry as I was on hearing this story. You just don't expect such racist rubbish from such an eminent scientist.
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جوري
10-18-2007, 07:25 PM
I am glad you wrote that.. indeed sometimes people can't tell rubbish from non.. and that to me is quite unfortunate.. that was the reason behind my post...

peace!
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جوري
10-18-2007, 07:30 PM
I have been hanging around you brits too long -- now I use words like 'rubbish' what a joke...*shakes head in amusement*
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tomtomsmom
10-18-2007, 07:36 PM
I think it is completely ridiculous! The color of your skin has as much effect on your intelligence as it does on your soul. IF black people aren't as "smart" as whites it is due to circumstances NOT their color. If they were given the same opportunities as their white counter parts then they would be even. I can't speak for all places so I won't even try. I do know however in the area I live in that there are concentrated areas of black households. For generations they have lived in the same areas and they are considered to be the "poor" areas. These places have sub-standard schools and lack quality jobs. The school system has failed year after year to make a proper education available. That has to do with only one color. And here in the States, it is green!!!!!
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جوري
10-18-2007, 07:55 PM
I had read a nice story in NEJM I no longer have a subscription, so I can't find it but I am sure a thorough google search will turn up similar results..

It was of three troubled black youths, who had committed a crime, to get away from the police they hid in a confrence in some library... that day was life altering for them as they vowed to change their life style and become doctors.. two became doctors and one a dentist..now they go around telling their story to other black youths to inspire them...

Sure environment plays a factor on how well you turn out.. but also your expectations of yourself... Some people decide I had a crappy life and it is all I'll know... but I have seen people of all sorts of awful circumstance make it...

I have known a doctors who used to work rail road tracks of the grave yard shift... I know one doctor who when started a residency was living out in his car and used to shower in local gyms..relied totally on money he was making doing odds and ends by way of blue collar jobs and had exactly $6.72 in his pocket when he started.
I have known one girl with debilitating diseases who was so keen on making it, she actually failed out of pharmacy school but didn't give up and started all over again... people used to call her ugly, she has scoliosis that was never attended to plus a host of other diseases, her father was in jail and her mother off wellfare and through will and drive she made it.. she is a speech therapist and makes a great living.. When she wanted to be married people would laugh at her and she decided to join one of those 'dating sites' even then she was mocked, but she married an engineer has a couple of kids now and is very happy.... this all has to do with what you as an individual want for yourself.. not what people expect or think of you...

I believe no one should let anyone else dictate their potential or capabilities.. You only you can decide how far you want to go.. and everyone can go as far as they dare to dream!
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tomtomsmom
10-18-2007, 08:01 PM
I agree, but sadly most people don't have that kind of drive. If everyone one you know is out making big money selling crack on the corner then it is easier to believe you will be successful doing that then struggling going to school.
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Qingu
10-19-2007, 04:38 AM
When I first read this story I thought maybe Watson was going senile (he did deny saying what he was quoted as saying later). I sort of wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But apparently he's been harping on gene-determinism for a while now, and this isn't the first time he's asserted that genetic differences are somehow responsible for racial stereotypes.

This is why it's important to distinguish science from individual scientists. Watson's contribution to science—the discovery of DNA—was repeatedly tested by a community of colleagues. But his contribution to science pretty much ends there. Some of the things he has said, about the desirability of genetic testing and screening, are downright scary.

I think it's a shame that there is such a thing as a "celebrity scientist." Many of history's greatest scientists—Kepler, Newton—were also some of history's most unpleasant people.
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جوري
10-19-2007, 04:44 AM
for once I agree with you sir and since you've graced us with your presence.. refreshing for a change ( I am afraid my lack of objection would send some eating their words) it is a psychological issue for many at least as far as I am concerned *sighs*...

peace!
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 04:53 AM
i think every race has what its good at or better at when compared to another racial group. some races are good in science others maybe art, some sports some phylosophy etc when it comes to intelligence, i dont know if one race is the smartest of all
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 04:58 AM
to tell the truth, all humans are racist in their own ways, theres always going to be perceptions of racial superiority as long as man exists. people are going to feel superior to others due to racial status. i knw many people will be scared to admit this because the issue of race is a very sensitive one.
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glo
10-19-2007, 06:34 AM
I heard this morning that the scientist in question has apologised for the offence he has caused ...

My first question to him would be how he measured 'intelligence'. To my knowledge intelligence tests are very often culturally biased and measure a whole range of things other than just intellect.

But, just out of interest, and a question to the 'scientists' on LI, do different races not have different attributes/strengths/weaknesses in biological terms??
Would a suggestion that one race was more intelligent/faster/stronger etc than another be so outrageous?

We would not perceive it to be politically correct, because as a society we value the concepts of equality and equal rights ... but what if there are biological differences which are genetically determined?

Peace
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Malaikah
10-19-2007, 08:55 AM
Originally Posted by glo
But, just out of interest, and a question to the 'scientists' on LI, do different races not have different attributes/strengths/weaknesses in biological terms??
Would a suggestion that one race was more intelligent/faster/stronger etc than another be so outrageous?

We would not perceive it to be politically correct, because as a society we value the concepts of equality and equal rights ... but what if there are biological differences which are genetically determined?
I actually have to agree with this... Different races are genetic predisposed to different disease or conditions. I don't see why we can calmly accept something like most Africans being lactose intolerant and can't therefore drink normal milk but can't accept something that indicates something like intelligence is determined by our genes and that some races have better genes in this respect than others.

I'm not saying that his research is correct, and obviously the way he presented his opinion was very rude and offensive. But if it turns out that intelligence does have a genetic bases, are we going to reject it just because it doesn't sound right?

Anyway, I had no idea Watson was still alive!
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Muezzin
10-19-2007, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I heard this morning that the scientist in question has apologised for the offence he has caused ...
Indeed
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NoName55
10-19-2007, 10:57 AM
I actually have to agree with this... Different races are genetic predisposed to different disease or conditions. I don't see why we can calmly accept something like most Africans being lactose intolerant and can't therefore drink normal milk but can't accept something that indicates something like intelligence is determined by our genes and that some races have better genes in this respect than others.

I'm not saying that his research is correct, and obviously the way he presented his opinion was very rude and offensive. But if it turns out that intelligence does have a genetic bases, are we going to reject it just because it doesn't sound right?

Anyway, I had no idea Watson was still alive!
I wonder what race and color the black Ethiopians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Israelis, mexicans were, who were building pyramids and palaces when the white englanders were still swinging from trees in Sherwood and the like?
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Malaikah
10-19-2007, 11:40 AM
I doubt he literally meant that black skin in and of it self makes a person less intelligent.
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Muslim Knight
10-19-2007, 11:44 AM
Intelligence alone doesn't guarantee success in life. There are many cases where intelligent people screw up big time.

Am I the only one to think that these scientists waste their research grant money to study things which will never benefit humankind as a whole. How many times must be repeated that people in third world countries are starving!! Hello??? Anyone listening??

Stupid scientists. I think research must be done on the intelligence of these scientists. We must discover the correlation between abject stupidity and conducting useless experiments.
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Musaafirah
10-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
Hmm..jus to finish off what he said..(sorry, it wasn't mentioned in your source)
Scientific endeavour

And in comments published in The Independent newspaper on Friday, Dr Watson tries to clarify his position.

"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity.

"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers."

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7052416.stm)
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جوري
10-19-2007, 02:25 PM
Some people are gifted... the rest just have to work really hard! if you run Statistics on intelligence quotient you'll find that a certain percentage of the population falls on +/_ 2 of the confidence interval then there are those very high and very low on the spectrum and that is always indiscriminate to race, color, size shape or even sex....

and sure diseases affect some folks in different ways.. fragile x, downs syndrome and fetal alcohol syndrome which are the leading reasons for mental retardation are also indiscriminate amongst races, religions, sexes, etc...
was the man justified in his testament? NO! he is just banking on his name to peddle BS... sometimes you just have to sit there and tell someone.. won't you please cut the crap! our understanding of molecular biology isn't less intense than his now with all our books and resources.. he didn't call 'dibs' on understanding...
:w:
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Isambard
10-19-2007, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I actually have to agree with this... Different races are genetic predisposed to different disease or conditions. I don't see why we can calmly accept something like most Africans being lactose intolerant and can't therefore drink normal milk but can't accept something that indicates something like intelligence is determined by our genes and that some races have better genes in this respect than others.

I'm not saying that his research is correct, and obviously the way he presented his opinion was very rude and offensive. But if it turns out that intelligence does have a genetic bases, are we going to reject it just because it doesn't sound right?

Anyway, I had no idea Watson was still alive!
I too (partially) agree with the scientist.

Even between men and women there are slightly different brain structures and brain patterns meaning they each have a strength and a weakness.

It'd make sense race would be similar. This is not to say any one race is superior, but they may different capabilities in different things. Id say some extra evidence is the prevalance of different physcological disorders among different groups.

Where it gets tricky is where you define race. Humans have been intermixing for thousands of yrs so a 'pure race' is almost impossible to find unless you go to isolated regions of the world. Even then, their culture and upbrining of children and environments are so different, it would be nearly impossibile to conclude that its soley genetics for the way they are.
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 08:14 PM
i feel any observant person will realise that some races are collectively more intelligent than others, this is evident in their technological advancements and also their abilities to profer solutions to major problems facing mankind or their abilities to build complex structures. same way its clear to see that some races collectively are physicaly stronger than others, some are collectively taller and so on.... but when it comes to intelligence pple shy away from the obvious because intelligence or iq is often used by pple to establish racial supiriority claims. im no expert on racial biology and all that
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Seeker_of_truth
10-19-2007, 08:38 PM
If black not as smart as whites. Then how do you explain black doctors and white garbage men? I believe black people don't get the same opportunity as whites because lack of money.
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NoName55
10-19-2007, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth
If black not as smart as whites. Then how do you explain black doctors and white garbage men? I believe black people don't get the same opportunity as whites because lack of money.
:sl:

that's right!

get a white man put him in Hick Town USA and you can make him in to a Jed Clampit

Take a black man educate him and he can turn in to a Colin Powell
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Seeker_of_truth
10-19-2007, 08:46 PM
Why do KKK and conservatives hate blacks? Are conservatives and KKK suppose to be religious? Since when did they adopt the superior race cr@p?
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Isambard
10-19-2007, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:sl:

that's right!

get a white man put him in Hick Town USA and you can make him in to a Jed Clampit

Take a black man educate him and he can turn in to a Colin Powell
You may want to read the article again. he never claimed this would be true in all cases, just a hell of alot more likely.

Looking at the education system, there is a correlation between race and academic performance. Now what that means is up to you, just dont set up strawmans.
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 08:50 PM
the truth about racial intelligence will never be aknowledged even if proven beyond every reasonable doubt because it will create a lot of confusion and discrimination if revealed and accepted by society.
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 08:55 PM
why does it always have to be white vs black? ive read many articles stating tht east asians are more intelligent than whites but nobody seems to be bothered by such statements. what abt asking the question 'are arabs more intelligent than indians'? or are whites more intelligent than arabs? y is it always white vs black?
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Seeker_of_truth
10-19-2007, 08:59 PM
Arabs smarter then Indians I doubt it. Who has the nuclear bomb? Who still live under dictatorship and oppression? With high poverty indians children still graducate from colleges and university. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and many arab countries have high drop out and jobless rate. Some arabs come to Pakistan and India to get education.
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by Seeker_of_truth
Arabs smarter then Indians I doubt it. Who has the nuclear bomb? Who still live under dictatorship and oppression? With high poverty indians children still graducate from colleges and university. Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iraq and many arab countries have high drop out and jobless rate. Some arabs come to Pakistan and India to get education.
thats not a way of measuring intelligence, dropping out of school does not necessarily mean someone is less intelligent, infact i know alot of intelligent people that have dropped out of school maybe because the school curriculum was too slow for them or they might have plans outside the walls of schools. i was just trying to make a point not stating any facts or asking for reasons to imply that indians are more intelligent than arabs or vice versa.
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Seeker_of_truth
10-19-2007, 09:10 PM
I get bit sensitive about this arabs being superior issue. I know you did not mean anything that way.
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NoName55
10-19-2007, 09:20 PM
watch "Dispatches - immigrants the inconvenient truth" to see how crap white lower class Britons, Portugese, Pakistanis and Somalis are compared to black Ugandan Christians, Poles, Sikhs and hindus.

first part below' do a search for remainder http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search

Media Tags are no longer supported
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Whatsthepoint
10-19-2007, 09:27 PM
It is possible that some races or groups of people have evolved their brain in a different way than the others have. However, I think that differences, if they exist, are rather small and do not make raising a black child any different from raising a white child. Intelligence does not depend on the brain itself, that is to say DNA, but rather on how well the brain was trained or activated during its development in the childhood.
In my opinion, the main factor considering intelligence is the environment.
People in Africa often do not receive proper upbringing and education, which does make them less intelligent, which was proven by tests. That does not mean that they do not have the potential to become intelligent, they just don't have the opportunity to take advantage of it.
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Whatsthepoint
10-19-2007, 09:33 PM
This certainly is an interesting site.:happy:

Jewish Nobel prize winners:
Chemistry (29 prize winners, 19% of world total, 28% of US total)
Economics (25 prize winners, 41% of world total, 55% of US total)
Literature (13 prize winners, 13% of world total, 27% of US total)
Peace (9 prize winners, 9% of world total, 10% of US total)3
Physics (47 prize winners, 26% of world total, 38% of US total)
Physiology or Medicine (53 prize winners, 28% of world total, 41% of US total)

Does that mean that the Jews have superior brain? Or does it mean that their way of education, their way of sticking together and helping each other is superior?

:nervous:
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nevesirth
10-19-2007, 09:35 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It is possible that some races or groups of people have evolved their brain in a different way than the others have. However, I think that differences, if they exist, are rather small and do not make raising a black child any different from raising a white child. Intelligence does not depend on the brain itself, that is to say DNA, but rather on how well the brain was trained or activated during its development in the childhood.
In my opinion, the main factor considering intelligence is the environment.
People in Africa often do not receive proper upbringing and education, which does make them less intelligent, which was proven by tests. That does not mean that they do not have the potential to become intelligent, they just don't have the opportunity to take advantage of it.
but collectively, whose fault is it that africans dont have the right environment or facilities to enhance intelligence? failure of them to work together as a unit inorder to develop things that are necessary for their advancement is the cause of backwardness. and when u say africans i think thts not a right form of classification because africans are a diverse people and each region or race or ethnicity in africa has its own problems or achievements unique to it. im not implying tht every white person is smarter than every black person or every chinese is smarter than every white person, what i believe should be the issue here is how effectively the people can work together as a unit inorder to make reasonable advancements and technological breakthroughs etc...............
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Whatsthepoint
10-19-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by nevesirth
but collectively, whose fault is it that africans dont have the right environment or facilities to enhance intelligence? failure of them to work together as a unit inorder to develop things that are necessary for their advancement is the cause of backwardness. and when u say africans i think thts not a right form of classification because africans are a diverse people and each region or race or ethnicity in africa has its own problems or achievements unique to it. im not implying tht every white person is smarter than every black person or every chinese is smarter than every white person, what i believe should be the issue here is how effectively the people can work together as a unit inorder to make reasonable advancements and technological breakthroughs etc...............
Politics, bro, politics...:playing:
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Malaikah
10-20-2007, 12:03 AM
Originally Posted by nevesirth
but collectively, whose fault is it that africans dont have the right environment or facilities to enhance intelligence? failure of them to work together as a unit inorder to develop things that are necessary for their advancement is the cause of backwardness.
I don't think that is very fair- there are many other factors involved.
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Qingu
10-20-2007, 05:27 AM
Originally Posted by nevesirth
but collectively, whose fault is it that africans dont have the right environment or facilities to enhance intelligence? failure of them to work together as a unit inorder to develop things that are necessary for their advancement is the cause of backwardness. and when u say africans i think thts not a right form of classification because africans are a diverse people and each region or race or ethnicity in africa has its own problems or achievements unique to it. im not implying tht every white person is smarter than every black person or every chinese is smarter than every white person, what i believe should be the issue here is how effectively the people can work together as a unit inorder to make reasonable advancements and technological breakthroughs etc...............
There are several problems with what you are saying, nevesirth.

First of all, who are "the Africans"? Does this include the Nubians, who founded Egyptian dynasties and built pyramids? Or people who originated the Afro-Semetic languages, who would one day create the great Babylonian empires and start the religions of Judaism and (later) Islam? There are no clear-cut dividing lines between the races, the very concept of "race" is deeply flawed.

What do exist are groups of human beings living in various degrees of isolation from one another. When a species group is isolated, its available gene pool is decreased, and harmful mutations can spread rapidly. This is why, for example, Ashkenazi Jews are highly susceptible to hemophelia and Tay-Sachs disease.

Africans with darker skin are often more susceptible to sickle-cell anemia, though this is actually an adaption, not a result of isolation. Such people lived near jungles, where malaria was common. The genetic mutation that makes you susceptible to sickle-cell also increases your resistance to malaria, so obviously this genetic mutation was selected for by their environment.

Now. It's not particularly difficult to see how genetic differences, like the ones mentioned above, can arise among distinct groups of human beings. Intelligence, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

First of all, we have no legitimate definition of intelligence. How would you define intelligence? A score on an IQ test? All IQ tests are heavily biased towards specific cultures.

Also, the mechanisms that determine intelligence in the brain—unlike the genetics of diseases—are not even close to being understood. It is also not clear to what extent genetic differences play into determining intelligence.

Now, I certainly agree that certain groups of humans have cultures that are conspicuously more war-torn or ignorant than other cultures. But I think it would be very foolish to attribute such differences to genetic differences. Just look at the history of the world, and all of the different cultures in the world. People of all skin cultures have had their great civilizations, black Africans, Arabs, Chinese, native Americans, Indo-Europeans. To whatever extent there is a pattern here, it is largely determined by geography more than anything. The people who lived closer to stable sources of grain and water were better able to develop flourishing civilizations. The cultures of these civilizations then would compete with each other, influencing each other on grand scales well beyond the genetic differences of the individuals that made them up.

If you haven't read it, I'd recommend Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. It's a pretty insightful explanation of how and why different groups of people ended up with such different cultures—and it shows how little these differences have to do with individuals, let alone genetics.
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nevesirth
10-20-2007, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Qingu
There are several problems with what you are saying, nevesirth.

First of all, who are "the Africans"? Does this include the Nubians, who founded Egyptian dynasties and built pyramids? Or people who originated the Afro-Semetic languages, who would one day create the great Babylonian empires and start the religions of Judaism and (later) Islam? There are no clear-cut dividing lines between the races, the very concept of "race" is deeply flawed.

What do exist are groups of human beings living in various degrees of isolation from one another. When a species group is isolated, its available gene pool is decreased, and harmful mutations can spread rapidly. This is why, for example, Ashkenazi Jews are highly susceptible to hemophelia and Tay-Sachs disease.

Africans with darker skin are often more susceptible to sickle-cell anemia, though this is actually an adaption, not a result of isolation. Such people lived near jungles, where malaria was common. The genetic mutation that makes you susceptible to sickle-cell also increases your resistance to malaria, so obviously this genetic mutation was selected for by their environment.

Now. It's not particularly difficult to see how genetic differences, like the ones mentioned above, can arise among distinct groups of human beings. Intelligence, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

First of all, we have no legitimate definition of intelligence. How would you define intelligence? A score on an IQ test? All IQ tests are heavily biased towards specific cultures.

Also, the mechanisms that determine intelligence in the brain—unlike the genetics of diseases—are not even close to being understood. It is also not clear to what extent genetic differences play into determining intelligence.

Now, I certainly agree that certain groups of humans have cultures that are conspicuously more war-torn or ignorant than other cultures. But I think it would be very foolish to attribute such differences to genetic differences. Just look at the history of the world, and all of the different cultures in the world. People of all skin cultures have had their great civilizations, black Africans, Arabs, Chinese, native Americans, Indo-Europeans. To whatever extent there is a pattern here, it is largely determined by geography more than anything. The people who lived closer to stable sources of grain and water were better able to develop flourishing civilizations. The cultures of these civilizations then would compete with each other, influencing each other on grand scales well beyond the genetic differences of the individuals that made them up.

If you haven't read it, I'd recommend Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. It's a pretty insightful explanation of how and why different groups of people ended up with such different cultures—and it shows how little these differences have to do with individuals, let alone genetics.
i understand what u mean, but i made it clear that africans are a diverse people. so we cant use the term 'african' to refer to a specific race or ethnicity in the african continent. im not trying to prove if certain african races are more or less intelligent than caucasians, im just pointing out the inability or failure of some of these people to work together as an intelligent unit in order to pfofer solutions to problems hindering advancement
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smile
10-20-2007, 10:08 AM
he must have something very wrong with his brain
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poga
10-20-2007, 01:07 PM
womain claim men kept them in kitchen if so why the best chefs are men..BARZAKH

:sl:Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : If brain is feminine then what gender is heart
If mind is the feminine womb where all thoughts enter
Then what gender is the place they depart
What gender is tender moments what gender is hard times
What gender is gentle pleasure what gender is criminal crimes
Tell me about your gender theory oh sexiest BARZAKH
Tell me what gender is hearing ears what gender is our watching ANKH
Tell me what is the gender of heartless person
Tell me how to make heart softer with your sexiest sermon:w:
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Isambard
10-20-2007, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by poga
womain claim men kept them in kitchen if so why the best chefs are men..BARZAKH

:sl:Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : If brain is feminine then what gender is heart
If mind is the feminine womb where all thoughts enter
Then what gender is the place they depart
What gender is tender moments what gender is hard times
What gender is gentle pleasure what gender is criminal crimes
Tell me about your gender theory oh sexiest BARZAKH
Tell me what gender is hearing ears what gender is our watching ANKH
Tell me what is the gender of heartless person
Tell me how to make heart softer with your sexiest sermon:w:
Eh? Not really sure what you mean. There is a difference between male and female brain structures as well as anatomy.

For example, the corpous collossum is thicker in the female brain than it is in the male allowing for greater communication between the left and right hemispheres. Women also use both sides of their brain when engaging i language and social interaction.

There is of course a trade-off, so men devote more in terms of the part of the brain responsible for direction, logic, math etc.

If you look at the top 10% for mathmatics, the overwhemling majority are male. This is especially true for savants and folks with Asperger's being almost entirely male with superior mathmatic skills but heavily retarded language and social interaction.
Reply

poga
10-20-2007, 02:55 PM
threre is a river between two brain
i wnat know what is name of the bridge
Reply

Isambard
10-20-2007, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by poga
threre is a river between two brain
i wnat know what is name of the bridge
Corpus collossum
Reply

poga
10-20-2007, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Corpus collossum
:sl: please tell me more about its function as bridge
who use it emotion or information:w:
Reply

poga
10-20-2007, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl: please tell me more about its function as bridge
who use it emotion or information:w:
also can i say commissure of infundibulum is the poll tax collecter for the bridge
Reply

Woodrow
10-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl: please tell me more about its function as bridge
who use it emotion or information:w:
Us humans have a bicarmal brain. each hemisphere is designed to develope for being the primary controlling mechanism for different parts of the body. a person is capable of normal thought even without the corpus collosum. some people are born without it, some have had it severed through surgery or accident. severing of it is still used as a permanent cure for uncontrollable siezures.

The purpose of it is to coordinate physical abilities. Without it things like walking, eye hand coordination etc, are harder to learn and develop.

An early study I did research in, verified the rapid ability for the 2 hemispheres to develope non-verbal communication path ways through visual cues. In other words while the corpus collosum makes life easier, it is not essential for thought or physical development.

Now to get back on topic. Dr, Watson made one major error. He is not a Physiological Psychologist, he is not trained in the ability to define intelligence from a psychological view point. He poked his nose into an area in which he has no training or expertise and made a very non-scientific statement with no basis.
Reply

poga
10-20-2007, 06:10 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
Us humans have a bicarmal brain. each hemisphere is designed to develope for being the primary controlling mechanism for different parts of the body. a person is capable of normal thought even without the corpus collosum. some people are born without it, some have had it severed through surgery or accident. severing of it is still used as a permanent cure for uncontrollable siezures.

The purpose of it is to coordinate physical abilities. Without it things like walking, eye hand coordination etc, are harder to learn and develop.

An early study I did research in, verified the rapid ability for the 2 hemispheres to develope non-verbal communication path ways through visual cues. In other words while the corpus collosum makes life easier, it is not essential for thought or physical development.

Now to get back on topic. Dr, Watson made one major error. He is not a Physiological Psychologist, he is not trained in the ability to define intelligence from a psychological view point. He poked his nose into an area in which he has no training or expertise and made a very non-scientific statement with no basis.
:sl:thank you woodrow
if becameral means two chambers and if one chember is occupied by ego and other by emotion then where does intligence reside:w:
Reply

Woodrow
10-20-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally Posted by poga
:sl:thank you woodrow
if becameral means two chambers and if one chember is occupied by ego and other by emotion then where does intligence reside:w:
:w:
first of all I want to thank you for not pointing out my atrocious spelling of bicameral. I have no Idea why I called it bicarmel. I must have my mind on candy.

Many physiological psychologists, including myself have come to the conclusion that the concepts of thought and the precursors of emotions are of a holographic nature, in that any single portion of the brain carries the entire abstract thoughts of the brain.

We do know that the frontal cortex becomes active during periods of intense thought. but, we can get into very deep philosophical discussions over if the activity causes the thoughts or if the activity is an artifact of the thought. We also know that the entire limbic system is active during emotional reactions. But we can not verify that there is any specific location for ego, emotion or thoughts. My only conclusion is there is a separate non-physical soul that is part of our being and is what we call and understand as being our self.

The bicameral nature of the brain is more in terms of a division of functions. although some specific functions can be traced to definite areas, Such as speech is related to Wernecke's area and movement is related to the motor cortex. The mapping is not that absolute as in some individuals, some functions may be associated with unexpected areas.

Although if a single hemisphere is destroyed at an early age, the remaining hemisphere can take on the full functions of both hemispheres.
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MustafaMc
10-21-2007, 11:19 PM
Quoting from the article:

Prof Watson attracted a deluge of criticism for his comments in a Sunday Times interview, reportedly saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".

I am not knowledgeable about the genetic control of intelligence, but as a cotton breeder I am knowledgeable about the relative importance of environment on yield of cotton varieties. The statistical effect of environment on yield (lbs of lint/acre) in multi-environment trials is from 5 to 10 times the magnitude of genetic effects. I struggle to achieve a 100# genetic advantage over our competitors, but there is often a 1,000# difference in the mean yield of different locations. This is not to mention the effect of the differential interaction of varieties with environments. Some varieties perform better than others in certain environments (early maturity in Missouri), but relatively worse in other (early maturity in Georgia). The interaction effect is often nearly as large as the genotypic effect.

I say all this as background info that the effect of environment on IQ must be many times more important than the genetic effect. If Einstein had never gone to school and was in fact raised by Aborigines in Australia, would he have developed the Theory of Relativity? I don't think so. What would have been the effect of his studying law at Harvard instead of physics at Eidgenössisches Polytechnikum? I will be the first to admit that there is a genetic component to intelligence, but has the average person of African descent been given the proper environment to fully develop his specific intellectual abilities? Again, I don't think so.

He was quoted as saying he hoped everyone was equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".

Living and working in Mississippi, I encounter many workers of African descent. I can personally atest to the fact that the above statement made by Dr. Watson is not true. I work with many African-Americans who have a strong inate intelligence.
Reply

Malaikah
10-22-2007, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I say all this as background info that the effect of environment on IQ must be many times more important than the genetic effect. If Einstein had never gone to school and was in fact raised by Aborigines in Australia, would he have developed the Theory of Relativity? I don't think so. What would have been the effect of his studying law at Harvard instead of physics at Eidgenössisches Polytechnikum?
hmmm, I don't think we can equate a persons achievements with their intelligence...
Reply

Woodrow
10-22-2007, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
hmmm, I don't think we can equate a persons achievements with their intelligence...
Very true. Intelligence is just one factor involved for achievement and high intellegence is not always the criteria for achievement.
Reply

NoName55
10-22-2007, 06:50 AM
I, too, have seen intelligent people starving with not a penny to their name, yet at the same time dumbest people in high positions (probably due to daddy or sheer dumb luck)
Reply

Woodrow
10-22-2007, 07:13 AM
This has been discussed long enough. It looks like everything of value has been said.

:threadclo:
Reply

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