Tying Judaism, Islam, and Christianity together

[abu_hurriya]

Hello all.

I was just thinking about how the three monothesitic religions tie together. I want to know how Islam fits into the equation.

The Bani Israel had direct revelation from God. They erred by rejecting Jesus and Mohammed. (according to Muslims)

The Christians say that Christ is the fulfullment of Judaism. Until that time, everyone was waiting for Jesus to take on the sins of humankind and redeem humanity.

What I am asking is this - how does Islam explain the anticipation of the Jews for Jesus and the subsequent fulfillment of the sacrificial system of the Jews?

[MustafaMc]

What I am asking is this - how does Islam explain the anticipation of the Jews for Jesus and the subsequent fulfillment of the sacrificial system of the Jews?

My perspective is that this is an example Christian revisionism in forcing history to fit their dogma. The Jews of history and of Jesus' time were not expecting a "saviour" from their sins as the Christian now believes in Jesus (as). The Jewish people were (and still are) expecting a Messiah to establish an earthly kingdom.

[snakelegs]

Hello all.

I was just thinking about how the three monothesitic religions tie together. I want to know how Islam fits into the equation.

The Bani Israel had direct revelation from God. They erred by rejecting Jesus and Mohammed. (according to Muslims)

The Christians say that Christ is the fulfullment of Judaism. Until that time, everyone was waiting for Jesus to take on the sins of humankind and redeem humanity.

What I am asking is this - how does Islam explain the anticipation of the Jews for Jesus and the subsequent fulfillment of the sacrificial system of the Jews?

just a note - jews were not anticipating jesus or "fullfillment of the sacrificial system".
jews await the messiah and jesus did not meet the jewish concept of messiah, nor did jews await the sacrifice of jesus.
what you wrote may be the teachings of islam, but jews see it differently.

[abu_hurriya]

just a note - jews were not anticipating jesus or "fullfillment of the sacrificial system".

then why were (are) they anticipating a messiah?

jews await the messiah and jesus did not meet the jewish concept of messiah, nor did jews await the sacrifice of jesus.

Then why is the Bible full of prophecies of Jesus? What are the Jews then waiting for?

If Islam claims to keep the law of Moses, why dont they follow the Old Testament laws in the Bible?

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[MustafaMc]

If Islam claims to keep the law of Moses, why dont they follow the Old Testament laws in the Bible?

What Quranic verse have you read that commands Muslims to keep the law of Moses (as)? We follow Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the pattern for how to worship Allah (swt) and how to live our lives.

[Isambard]

then why were (are) they anticipating a messiah?



Then why is the Bible full of prophecies of Jesus? What are the Jews then waiting for?

If Islam claims to keep the law of Moses, why dont they follow the Old Testament laws in the Bible?

Once the messiah comes, the world will end. The world didnt end with jesus so he is not their messiah.

[snakelegs]

then why were (are) they anticipating a messiah?



Then why is the Bible full of prophecies of Jesus? What are the Jews then waiting for?

If Islam claims to keep the law of Moses, why dont they follow the Old Testament laws in the Bible?

fom a jewish standpoint, the bible is not full of prophecies about jesus - that is a christian interpretation.
the jews are awaiting the messiah.
your last question would be better answered by a muslim, but i can tell you that islam considers the old testament (as well as the new) corrupted - (people changing the original text). the message of islam comes to restore the original program, so to speak.

[Woodrow]

Your question has been answered. quite simply the OT and the NT are not the original revelations and what is in them is not of any importance as those are not the words of God(swt). It is of no importance of what either do as it is not the word of God(swt). the original revelations were the true words, but those words were for specific people at a specific time and the words no longer exist in their original form and Have only been restored in the Qur'an in a form that is applicable for all people of all times.

[snakelegs]

Once the messiah comes, the world will end. The world didnt end with jesus so he is not their messiah.

no, the world doesn't end.
quoting from "questions about judaism"

1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.

to the OP:
for more on the jewish concept of messiah, please see post #125 on the "questions about judaism" thread. sorry - i can't figure out how you link to a single post.

[abu_hurriya]

Snakelegs,

thanks for the info.

What Quranic verse have you read that commands Muslims to keep the law of Moses (as)? We follow Prophet Muhammad (saaws) as the pattern for how to worship Allah (swt) and how to live our lives.

I thought Moses, being a messanger of God, had a correct message (i.e. his law was binding). So you are saying that it was for a specific people at a specific time, although it was not perserved and is therefore corrupt?

I would love a link to a website that would outline such things, if you have one.

So what was the fate of those who lived after Jesus but before Mohammed? What were they supposed to follow? How is salvation handled for them in an era of such ignorance?

[snakelegs]

Snakelegs,

thanks for the info.



I thought Moses, being a messanger of God, had a correct message (i.e. his law was binding). So you are saying that it was for a specific people at a specific time, although it was not perserved and is therefore corrupt?

I would love a link to a website that would outline such things, if you have one.

So what was the fate of those who lived after Jesus but before Mohammed? What were they supposed to follow? How is salvation handled for them in an era of such ignorance?

i am not terribly knowledgeable, so please keep that in mind and if i am wrong, i hope someone will correct me. i have never belonged to any of the 3 religions. i know a little about judaism and a little about islam and very little about christianity.
jews believe the "old testament" (called "tanakh" by jews) is the word of god to the jewish people, as revealed to moses. therefore they believe it true and uncorrupted and it is still binding on jews.
islam believes that it has been corrupted and is not the original. they also believe this about the new testament. so their belief is that over time, both jews and christians strayed from the original message (which they see as the message of islam). god revealed the qur'an to bring back the original message and it was a message for all people.
do check out the thread "questions about judaism". there are a number of jewish websites - you'll find a lot of links in that thread. it has been started and answered by several different jews over time. recently, we were lucky to have a rabbi on it who was very knowledgeable. because this section was closed during ramadan, it remains to be seen if he will come back. but there is a wealth of information (though lots of repitition) on the many, many pages of that thread.
as for islam, you can learn a whole lot from this forum and from various links you will run in to.
hope this is some help in understanding why the premise of your OP is incorrect. the jews were not anticipating jesus. they were (and are) anticipating the messiah and their "sacrificial system" did not have anything to do with human sacrifice.
that much i know for sure.

[Woodrow]

Snakelegs,

thanks for the info.

I thought Moses, being a messanger of God, had a correct message (i.e. his law was binding). So you are saying that it was for a specific people at a specific time, although it was not perserved and is therefore corrupt?

The message was not corrupted. It just was not followed and as a result the actual message was not properly nor fully preserved by the people.

I would love a link to a website that would outline such things, if you have one.

So what was the fate of those who lived after Jesus but before Mohammed? What were they supposed to follow? How is salvation handled for them in an era of such ignorance?

Islam simply means to submit to God(swt).

Everybody from Adam(as) onward was to submit to God(swt)

Islam, submission to God(swt), has always been and still is the path to salvation.

[NoName55]

....
jews believe the "old testament" (called "tanakh" by jews) is the word of god to the jewish people, as revealed to moses. therefore they believe it true and uncorrupted and it is still binding on jews.
islam believes that it has been corrupted and is not the original.

I do not believe that Islam ever had Much (if any) objection to Jewish Bible 1400 years ago. Rather our dispute was with Talmud and other Rabbinic interpretations (i.e. some people used to read out to people what was not there)
wasalaam

[snakelegs]

noname,
you're probably right because the jews consider the talmud the "oral law" and regard its teachings as binding also.

[khairullah]

Hello all.

I was just thinking about how the three monothesitic religions tie together. I want to know how Islam fits into the equation.

Allah (SWT) sent to messenger for the children of Israel Moses (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH), some of the Jews accepted Moses, but most of them rejected Jesus even try to kill him.

After the corruption of Judaism and Christianity , Allah (SWT) sent another universal messenger to clearify the misconception, confusion and blasphemy who is prophesized in both Judaism and Christianity ( which today both nations reject him due to wrong interpretation of the scriptures where prophet Mohammad (PBUH) was prophesized).

Allah (SWT) unites all human beings including Jews,Christians,Muslims and Pagans to worship only one God as they were tought to do.

Allah (SWT) says:

Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God's Will). [003:064]

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." Al-Quran 112:1-4

The Bani Israel had direct revelation from God. They erred by rejecting Jesus and Mohammed. (according to Muslims)

The Christians say that Christ is the fulfullment of Judaism. Until that time, everyone was waiting for Jesus to take on the sins of humankind and redeem humanity.

Yes Allah (SWT) sent Jesus for the children of Israel.

What I am asking is this - how does Islam explain the anticipation of the Jews for Jesus and the subsequent fulfillment of the sacrificial system of the Jews?

Since Christians and Jews are in doubt that Jesus is crucified, Allah (SWT) says:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) know ledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:- [004:157]


Jews rejected Jesus (PBUH) and try to kill him, but Allah (SWT) saved him.

And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the apostle of God (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of an Apostle to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!" [061:006]


"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.

Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.
Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realize that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."


Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

Mohammad (PBUH) is the only one after Jesus who Testifies and Glorifies Jesus (PBUH) as exactly as Jesus (PBUH) predicted.

[Grace Seeker]

My perspective is that this is an example Christian revisionism in forcing history to fit their dogma. The Jews of history and of Jesus' time were not expecting a "saviour" from their sins as the Christian now believes in Jesus (as). The Jewish people were (and still are) expecting a Messiah to establish an earthly kingdom.

Yes, and I think that revisionism is something that was very intentional by the early church. The Jews were not looking for Jesus, though there were no doubt some looking for a Messiah. There were people in every generation of the last 2 centuries before the time of Jesus pointing to first this person and then that person as the "anticipated" Messiah. But, Mustafa is exactly right, what they expected of their messiah was something completely different than what Jesus offered them. It was specifically for that reason that many did not recognize him as the expected Messiah, and that Jews today still do not recognize him as having fulfilled that role.

then why were (are) they anticipating a messiah?

Then why is the Bible full of prophecies of Jesus? What are the Jews then waiting for?

Anticipating a Messiah and anticipating Jesus are two different things. The messiah was a specific role. Just like we are expecting to elect a new president in the USA in 2008, that doens't mean that we are anticipating a particular person to be that new president. (Though of course a few might have their own set of expectations not shared by everyone.)

The Jews were anticipating a Messiah, because scripture spoke of God sending his servant to the nation, and in times of stress people look for saviors. Notice who much people talk about Christ's return at the end of the world when things get stressful. When I was a teenager, watching the 7days war on TV, we were convinced that perhaps Christ's return had started then. Before my generation there were many who thought that what came to be known as WW I (known by that generations as The Great War) was evidence of the immediate coming end of the world. Others have seen it in natural disasters, the rise of Communionism, the Moorish conquest of Spain, the invasion of the Goths and Vandals sacking Rome. Every generation has its own set of fears, and those who apocalytpic thoughts will see in the events of their day the unfolding of God's ultimate drama, be it the coming Messiah to rule Israel, or Jesus to bring an end to the world. Thus, the Jews who returned from exile first under Babylon and then later Persia, only to find that they still had no autonomy because of Alexander the Great, followed by the Ptolemies and then the Romans, felt powerless themselves to overthrow their oppressors and thus hoped for God to act as they understood he had promised to rid the infidel, gentile, and pagan from the Holy Land.


The Bible is NOT full of prophecies about Jesus. The Bible is full of prophecies that we Christians believe Jesus fulfilled. Again, there is a difference between those two statements. It is interesting to note that Jews look at some of these prophecies differently than Christians do, and they also look at some prophecies that Christians don't recognize as being prophecies regarding the Messiah. It seems that the ability to read back and find the prophecies you want is very helpful in finding fulfilled prophecies and disregarding others that might not have been.

[Grace Seeker]

Since Christians and Jews are in doubt that Jesus is crucified, Allah (SWT) says:

You are incorrect in the premise of your assertion. Jews may have doubts about what happened to Jesus -- though I doubt if most even give those thoughts the time of day, and most of those who do seem to accept that idea that Jesus was indeed crucified -- but Christians certainly are of the opinion that Jesus was not only crucified, but was bodily raised up from the grave. There is no doubt among Christians.

Islam likes to say that Christians have doubt, because that is part of your teaching, but it is a false statement about what we actually believe. You may say that we are wrong in our beliefs. But please do not correct me on what it is that Christians actually do believe.

[Grace Seeker]

"Ahmed" or "Muhammad" meaning "the one who praises" or "the praised one" is almost the translation of the Greek word Periclytos. In the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter.

Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos. Jesus (pbuh) actually prophesised Ahmed by name. Even the Greek word Paraclete refers to the Prophet (pbuh) who is a mercy for all creatures.
Some Christians say that the Comforter mentioned in these prophecies refers to the Holy Sprit. They fail to realize that the prophecy clearly says that only if Jesus (pbuh) departs will the Comforter come. The Bible states that the Holy Spirit was already present on earth before and during the time of Jesus (pbuh), in the womb of Elizabeth, and again when Jesus (pbuh) was being baptised, etc. Hence this prophecy refers to none other than Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

Gospel of John chapter 15 verse 26:

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."


Gospel of John chapter 16 verse 12-14:

"I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".

Mohammad (PBUH) is the only one after Jesus who Testifies and Glorifies Jesus (PBUH) as exactly as Jesus (PBUH) predicted.

I believe you are so far off base here, that I hardly know where to start.

The Greek word you refer to is parakletos. It is a cognate of the verb parakaleo the meaning of which (according to The New International Dictionary of the New Testament, Colin Brown general editor) in classical Greek ranged from call in, send for, summon, to exhort, ecnourage, comfort, console. The noun, parakletos, is derived from the verbal adjective and means called [to one's aid], and is first found in a legal context in the court of justice, with the meaning of legal assistant or advocate.

The etymology of parakletos suggests that it was used originally in the passive sense of one called to help, but the passages in which it is used in the New Testament show that the parakletos is not called, but sent. And he does not merely put in a good word, but brings active help. Indeed the parakletos of the NT is an intercessor.

So, I agree with your preference for the word "advocate" over "comforter", but that does not negate the concept of being a comforter as such a role can also be included within the work of the parakletos who is an advocate, counsellor, or helper. One does not have to chose one understanding and dismiss all of the rest; it is possible for the parakletos to fulfill all of these roles inclusively.

The uses of the term parakletos in the NT denote both a person and a power. Indeed, Jesus is himself referred to as the parakletos in John 14:16 where the Father is to send another parakletos -- the original parakletos being Jesus himself. And that is even more clear in 1 John 2:1, "we have an advocate (parakletos) with the Father - Jesus Christ...." So, I agree with the inference that the parakletos whom Jesus asks the Father to send is the successor of Jesus. But notice that Jesus leaves no doubt as to whom this successor of his shall be, and just in case you missed it, it is NOT Muhammed. Jesus clearly states:

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor [parakletos]to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth.

The parakletos who succeeds Jesus is none other than the Spirit. That same expression can be found again as Jesus continues to speak to his disciples:

John 15
26"When the Counselor [parakletos] comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

Though the Holy Spirit had been present in the beginning of creation, the Spirit's presence would now come upon the disciples in a unique way never experienced before, the Spirit would actually descend on them in a manner similar to how we see the Spirit of God come upon Jesus at his baptism. This is not some mere prophet talking about Jesus, this is the same power of God that was given by the Father to Jesus, now being given to all who would follow him.

There is no connection between the parakletos and Muhammed. Jesus never mentions "Ahmed" by name. Periclytos is not even a word that I can find in my Greek concordance to the New Testament (though I've been wrong before, if you can point it out to me). The Spirit, which even khairullah reports in John 15:26 as being identified with the parakletos, cannot be Muhammad because the Spirit "proceedeth" from the Father. Muhammad does not proceed from the Father. Indeed, Muhammed would not even refer to God as the Father. To read anything else into 15:26 is to miss the clear meaning of the text, and supplant Jesus' clear teaching on this point with a completely different theology foreign to and from outside the book itself.