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czgibson
10-30-2007, 03:47 PM
From the front page of today's Times:

Lessons in hate found at leading mosques
Regents Park Mosque
Sean O’Neill, Security Editor

Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain’s leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.

Some of the fundamentalist works were found at the bookshop in the London Central mosque in Regent’s Park, which is funded by the Saudi regime and is regularly visited by government ministers. Its director, Ahmad al-Dubayan, is also a Saudi diplomat and was among those greeting King Abdullah when he arrived in Britain last night for his official state visit.

Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions.

More than 80 books and pamphlets were collected during a year-long project in which researchers visited 100 mosques across Britain.

One book, Fatawa Islamiyah, which urges the execution of apostates, was found in bookshops at Regent’s Park mosque and at the huge East London mosque in Whitechapel. Muhammad Abdul Bari, the secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), is the chairman of the East London mosque.

The researchers said that they found further controversial works during visits to mosques in Manchester, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Oxford and High Wycombe.

The Times has learnt that five of the books that were acquired by researchers had been also found in searches during Scotland Yard antiterrorist investigations since 2001. About half of the books collected were in English – raising questions about the emphasis placed by the Government in combating extremism by training more English-speaking imams. The other publications were in Arabic or Urdu. The report, The Hijacking of British Islam, is published by the conservative Policy Exchange think-tank and was written by Denis MacEoin, a Fellow at Newcastle University and expert on Islamic issues.

The researchers found hardline material at a quarter of the 100 mosques visited during the project.

The report said: “On the one hand, the results were reassuring: in only a minority of institutions – approximately 25 per cent – was radical material found.

“What is more worrying is that these are among the best-funded and most dynamic institutions in Muslim Britain – some of which are held up as mainstream bodies. Many of the institutions featured here have been endowed with official recognition.”

A key theme of the books was a “strident sectarianism” which told Muslims that they should remain separate from other faiths and resist integration. The report stated: “Simply put, these notions demand that the individual Muslim must not merely feel deep affection for and identity with his fellow believers and with all that is authentically Islamic. The individual Muslim must also feel an abhorrence for nonbelievers, hypocrites, heretics, and all that is deemed ‘unIslamic’. The latter category encompasses those Muslims who are judged to practise an insufficiently rigorous form of Islam.” Most books stopped short of calling for violence. But they created a climate of intolerance and contempt for nonMuslims that could be exploited by violent jihadists, the researchers said.

The report called for a radical overhaul of Britain’s relationship with Saudi Arabia, which it argued has a “powerful and malign” influence over British Islam and sponsored the export of fundamentalist Islamic doctrine.

Regent’s Park mosque said that the bookshop on its premises was run by a private company. Yunes Teniaz, of the London Central Mosque Trust, told The Times: “The bookshop is franchised to a separate organisation. These books express their authors’ opinions and not those of the London Central Mosque Trust.”

Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: “Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views.”

Source
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Muezzin
10-30-2007, 04:49 PM
Satire Mode Activate:

The Powers That Be could always burn anything that rubs 'em the wrong way, I suppose...

Satire Mode Deactivate.

Still, it's somewhat exciting to live in an age where books can be controversial again. Not saying I agree with everything said controversial books contain, it's just been ages since a major British newspaper has cared enough about the contents of a book enough to complain about it so.

Anyway, enough of my scampish anarchic rambling.
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Idris
10-30-2007, 04:58 PM
Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain’s leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times.
I would love to see some of this so called "research"
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Nawal89
10-30-2007, 05:00 PM
Books calling for the beheading of lapsed Muslims, ordering women to remain indoors and forbidding interfaith marriage are being sold inside some of Britain’s leading mosques, according to research seen by The Times
to put it bluntly, apostates are killed in islam under sharia law, The best place for the woman is her house, even though it is allowed for her to go out, and a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim man. These are known laws in Islam. Are we not supposed to teach it now? Are we supposed to water it down to suit the western veiws?

Extremist literature, including passages supporting the stoning of adulterers and waging violent jihad, was also found on sale at many other mosques regarded as mainstream institutions
yes adulterers are stoned and we fight jihad to protect ourself. Thats in the Qurán. Now we cant teach it? Its not extremism dude. It's our religion. Take it or leave it.
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czgibson
10-30-2007, 05:09 PM
Greetings Muezzin,

Some very good thoughts from you as usual.

Originally Posted by Muezzin
Satire Mode Activate:

The Powers That Be could always burn anything that rubs 'em the wrong way, I suppose...

Satire Mode Deactivate.
Burning books en masse is obviously never a solution to anything, but I think in this case finding out why there is a demand for books of this kind would be beneficial.

Also, it would be interesting to find out more about the authors. I bet the chap who wrote 'Women Who Deserve To Go To Hell' is a real hoot. I would also bet that he would be male, though I could be wrong.

Still, it's somewhat exciting to live in an age where books can be controversial again. Not saying I agree with everything said controversial books contain, it's just been ages since a major British newspaper has cared enough about the contents of a book enough to complain about it so.
Absolutely. It's a pretty tense sort of excitement, but yes.

Peace
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NoName55
10-30-2007, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
to put it bluntly, apostates are killed in islam under sharia law, The best place for the woman is her house, even though it is allowed for her to go out, and a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim man. These are known laws in Islam. Are we not supposed to teach it now? Are we supposed to water it down to suit the western veiws?
who is the khaifah of Islamic Caliphate of U.K?

what are the qualifications to be mod and/or issue Islamic decrees on this "Islamic" site : be a relative of someone in-charge? certainly not knowledge of Islam!

best Islam bashing, and ignorance spreading site I have ever had the misfortune to come accros!!!
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Nawal89
10-30-2007, 05:16 PM
are you saying that those arent the laws of islam? I'm tired of people coming up with those same same saaaaaaame things again and again and calling it extremism without even learning the details of it first.

I can give u clear daleels for each one and u say i'm bashing islam? astaghfirullah.
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NoName55
10-30-2007, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
are you saying that those arent the laws of islam? I'm tired of people coming up with those same same saaaaaaame things again and again and calling it extremism without even learning the details of it first.

I can give u clear daleels for each one and u say i'm bashing islam? astaghfirullah.
Laws of Shariah are for an Islamic khilafat NOT for country ruled by Christians which gives us shelter from poverty or lunacy of so-called Islamic states

Do not Issue decrees based upon youtub or google videos and loony pamphlets
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Nawal89
10-30-2007, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Laws of Shariah are for an Islamic khilafat NOT for country ruled by Christians who makes the mistake of giving us shelter from poverty or lunacy of so-called Islamic states

Do not Issue decrees based upon youtub or google videos and loony pamphlets
Bro I think ur missing my whole point. Yes these rules only apply for an islamic state. But that does not mean that we shouldnt learn about it. Because it is afterall part of our religion.
And for your information i'm not speaking based on youtube youtub or google videos and loony pamphlets
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czgibson
10-30-2007, 05:36 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by NoName55
Laws of Shariah are for an Islamic khilafat NOT for country ruled by Christians which makes the mistake of giving us shelter from poverty or lunacy of so-called Islamic states
Are you saying countries like the UK or US are making a mistake by allowing Muslims to live in them?

Peace
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Muezzin
10-30-2007, 05:36 PM
About Sharia: Without reading these books, it's not really possible to make much of a judgement either way as to what exactly they're saying about Sharia and its application.

Possibly, some of the books are Islamically accurate yet misunderstood or misconstrued; other books possibly call for violent Muslim uprising against civilians, and these types of books should be condemned, no matter which colour or creed their authors are (obviously, considering such murderous behaviour is inconsistent with Islamic law and ethics in the first place).

Still other books might be simply the ravings of crackpots, which tend to be comically entertaining unless they urge their readers to go out and hurt people.
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NoName55
10-30-2007, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
Bro I think ur missing my whole point. Yes these rules only apply for an islamic state. But that does not mean that we shouldnt learn about it. Because it is afterall part of our religion.
And for your information i'm not speaking based on youtube youtub or google videos and loony pamphlets
:sl:

in that case jazakillah khairan, my appolgy for misunderstanding.

but we still have to be aware of who the authors are and the motives of the loony brigade

and, by all means learn but do not lose the context

:w:
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Muezzin
10-30-2007, 05:58 PM
The Channel 4 documentaries and Christian Scriptures don't have much bearing on this particular topic, ladies and gents.

And no, I don't know if that was the correct use of 'bearing'. Good thinking to ask though. If you asked. Without asking. In your mind. Yeah.

Back to the topic.
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Umm Yoosuf
10-30-2007, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
to put it bluntly, apostates are killed in islam under sharia law, The best place for the woman is her house, even though it is allowed for her to go out, and a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim man. These are known laws in Islam. Are we not supposed to teach it now? Are we supposed to water it down to suit the western veiws?



yes adulterers are stoned and we fight jihad to protect ourself. Thats in the Qurán. Now we cant teach it? Its not extremism dude. It's our religion. Take it or leave it.
Masha Allah! I couldn't have said it better myself!
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The_Prince
10-30-2007, 06:03 PM
this is simply yet another attack on muslims by the UK newspapers, i mean for weeks the papers have been quiet against muslims, then all of a sudden today and yesterday the papers are filled with articles against muslims and then against the saudi royal familly and sharia laws of saudia.

they apparently got bored so decided to stir up anger, hatred, and provocation against the muslims as they usually do. why for weeks no reports against muslims and then in 2 days the front covers are filled with anti-muslim articles??????
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The_Prince
10-30-2007, 06:08 PM
you know whats really funny, is that the newspaper reporting the 'hate' lessons in these mosques then go on to write how saudi arabia has to change their laws and adopt western style of life. isnt that a straight oxy-moron and hypocrisy? on one hand your attacking certain literature because they have no place in english society, yet in the next second your telling another society to abandon their tradition and life and certain sharia laws to adopt yours?!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and then they act suprised as to why most muslims dont trust them or take them seriously, its simple, HYPOCRISY..
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Nawal89
10-30-2007, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
:sl:

in that case jazakillah khairan, my appolgy for misunderstanding.

but we still have to be aware of who the authors are and the motives of the loony brigade

and, by all means learn but do not lose the context

:w:
No problem. :D
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Muezzin
10-30-2007, 06:32 PM
Off-topic posts um... recycled. Be good, now.
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The_Prince
10-30-2007, 06:37 PM
you know at the end of the day this topic and argument is FUTILE, whats the use in complaining about hate in some mosques from literature comming from saudia while the royal familly of england give the saudi royalty a high high class welcoming which they dont even give to bush!

it dont make sense.

right now as we speak the saudi royalty are dining with the english royalty and goverment, so all of this doesnt matter, not ONE iota, at the end of the day there is only one rule in today's world, and no its not democracy, its MONEY, he who has the money has the power and say. thats it.

the saudi royal familly came over to england with 5 jumbo jets, right now most of them are in high lavish hotels with bentleys, while the elders are in the palace. so lol really this topic and all related topics mean nothing when such things are happening.
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NoName55
10-30-2007, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
you know at the end of the day this topic and argument is FUTILE, whats the use in complaining about hate in some mosques from literature coming from saudia while the royal family of england give the saudi royalty a high high class welcoming which they dont even give to bush!

it dont make sense.
could it be to do with the historic fact that one country is the satellite of the other?

and is it a possibility that saudi version of Shariah is no more than an illusion to placate or deceive Muslims in to believing that they are an independent country?
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The_Prince
10-30-2007, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
could it be to do with the historic fact that one country is the satellite of the other?

and is it a possibility that saudi version of Shariah is no more than an illusion to placate or deceive Muslims in to believing that they are an independent country?
thats not the point, you might be correct, im trying to point out the western inconsistency if you know what i mean, that they post these articles against hate in mosques comming from saudia, yet they host the saudis in charge of this and treat them better than they would ever treat a citizen of that nation or a soldier who served in iraq or afghanistan! so its just to show how futile theyre arguments are, and that the fact is their goverment doesnt care for them.

:eek:
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Whatsthepoint
10-30-2007, 06:54 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
thats not the point, you might be correct, im trying to point out the western inconsistency if you know what i mean, that they post these articles against hate in mosques comming from saudia, yet they host the saudis in charge of this and treat them better than they would ever treat a citizen of that nation or a soldier who served in iraq or afghanistan! so its just to show how futile theyre arguments are, and that the fact is their goverment doesnt care for them.

:eek:
I's sure her majesty has never written an article about Saudi Arabia or Shariah law and those who have are most probably opposed to King Abdullah's visit.
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Muezzin
10-30-2007, 06:55 PM
And yet again we're straying...
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Whatsthepoint
10-30-2007, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
And yet again we're straying...
Inayat Bunglawala, the MCB assistant secretary-general, said: “Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views.”
No further debate is necessary.
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The_Prince
10-30-2007, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No further debate is necessary.
yes no debate indeed, the MCB guy should be applauded for what he said, why? because he is using your own system against you, when you mock, insult, and attack Islam, what do you say? you say the west is freedom, freedom to publish and write for or against a system etc, so therefore we are allowed to do the same thing if we want, as you say FREEDOM.
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NoName55
10-30-2007, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No further debate is necessary.
ah but that will take away the drama and excitement and members might stray into other sections to read about real Islam. and learning truth is far more boring than acting learned and/or trashing Islam (it could make trolls lose intrest and cause them to leave)
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Whatsthepoint
10-30-2007, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
yes no debate indeed, the MCB guy should be applauded for what he said, why? because he is using your own system against you, when you mock, insult, and attack Islam, what do you say? you say the west is freedom, freedom to publish and write for or against a system etc, so therefore we are allowed to do the same thing if we want, as you say FREEDOM.

so you quoting him as if to show hes evil or you prove your point only shows your a hypocrite because you proved what we all already knew, freedom of speech only works for you to exercise it, not for muslims to critisize you.
You must have misunderstood me.. I wanted to say the same thing you said. They have the right to posses and sell any kind of literature they want. Denying them that right would be acting against the very foundations of our great civilisation.
No matter how suicidal such toelerance may be, it is still the basis of our society.
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Whatsthepoint
10-30-2007, 07:19 PM
The books in question should have speacial stickers on them warning the reader not to implement sharia law in a non-islamic state. Such stickers would prevent a lot of legal problems...
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snakelegs
10-30-2007, 07:27 PM
do you think people are that dumb?
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wilberhum
10-30-2007, 07:35 PM
“Bookshops sell a variety of publications and we live in an open, democratic society where it is not illegal to sell books which contain antiWestern views.”
Ya folks, it is called freedom of speech. It's a two way street.

It is not against the law to print “Evil West” books and it isn’t against the law to print “Cartoons”.

But it is truly sad to see the standard “It is the Presses fault”.

Ya, right.

Someone teaching hate and that is OK. The press reporting it is evil.
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MTAFFI
10-30-2007, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
yes no debate indeed, the MCB guy should be applauded for what he said, why? because he is using your own system against you, when you mock, insult, and attack Islam, what do you say? you say the west is freedom, freedom to publish and write for or against a system etc, so therefore we are allowed to do the same thing if we want, as you say FREEDOM.
so to you it is OK to say freedom of speech when it is about or pertaining to any sort of extremism, in this case an extreme form of Islam that decieves and manipulates a novice into believing Islam is something that it is not. But then it is not OK for a dutch newspaper to print profound images of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?

I live in the west and I hold my freedoms close to me, however I do think that it has gone to a, yes wait for it,........extreme! I dont believe pictures or images of the prophet (pbuh) should be printed anymore than I believe literature that could possible incite violence, backwards thinking or political coups should be printed. I also dont believe that literature should be published to provoke people to isolate themselves from other people just because of their religion, to me it would appear to be a form of bigotry. You should also note that everything that I just described goes against the Quran, so what is it doing in a mosque?

I dont think that when people were implementing the idea of free speech they were thinking that such a priviledge and freedom would be abused and manipulated the way that it is today. It has turned into a joke, take OJ Simpsons book for example, he went on trial the double homicide and was aquitted, many years later he writes a book titled "IF I DID IT, THIS IS HOW IT WAS DONE" and when looking at the book cover you can barely see the word "I". It is a sick way to twist the system and abuse the system, his book along with the ones described in the original article on this thread, and any others that endorse hatred, bigotry, murder, etc. should all be banned or trashed or I would be happy to use them as a life time supply as toilet paper.

As for "The_Prince"s onslaught of comments about free speech and the treatment of the royal Saudi family, I will say one of your comments was absolutely correct, in that he who has the money has the control of the honey. However, the comments on free speech were a good laugh. No one is taking these books off the shelf and the writer of the article was simply exercising his right of free speech to criticize the authors, mosques and countries that allow such hate filled trash. It is his right to do so and until the books are banned from the country free speech prevails. So your argument would be considered futile in that you just dont like to hear this guy talk trash about these mosques or about the books, just as the books talk trash about this guy and his country, get it?
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ummzayd
10-30-2007, 10:56 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
No one is taking these books off the shelf and the writer of the article was simply exercising his right of free speech to criticize the authors, mosques and countries that allow such hate filled trash. It is his right to do so and until the books are banned from the country free speech prevails. So your argument would be considered futile in that you just dont like to hear this guy talk trash about these mosques or about the books, just as the books talk trash about this guy and his country, get it?
yes I wanted to make that point about free speech. as for the shock/horror press articles well yawn. there is all kind of hate-filled thrash available from just about all sections of society, some of the stuff I read by 'evangelical christians' is absolutely blood curdling. won't never make headlines though.

peace
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Isambard
10-31-2007, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
yes I wanted to make that point about free speech. as for the shock/horror press articles well yawn. there is all kind of hate-filled thrash available from just about all sections of society, some of the stuff I read by 'evangelical christians' is absolutely blood curdling. won't never make headlines though.

peace
That has more to do with the after reactions. For example you may see some very hateful stuff displayed openly in a Middle-eastern country, take for example Furfur (sp?) where there is no local outrage. Yet have someone write a book or a cartoon that is deemed 'offensive' and you get bloody riots.

So I think it has more to do with pointing out hypocracy. Even if I write something unpleasant about Jesus, I will at most got angry letters and no actions agaisnt my life.
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ummzayd
10-31-2007, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
That has more to do with the after reactions. For example you may see some very hateful stuff displayed openly in a Middle-eastern country, take for example Furfur (sp?) where there is no local outrage. Yet have someone write a book or a cartoon that is deemed 'offensive' and you get bloody riots.

So I think it has more to do with pointing out hypocracy. Even if I write something unpleasant about Jesus, I will at most got angry letters and no actions agaisnt my life.
I see the hypocrisy only as relating to the criticism of the content of these books. As long as the books are protected under the banner of 'free speech' then it is quite legitimate that any criticisms are also allowed (though not calls to ban them). It has nothing whatsoever to do with the cartoons or reactions to the cartoons. there is no comparison between these books and the offensive cartoons.

peace
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IbnAbdulHakim
10-31-2007, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
I would love to see some of this so called "research"
ditto
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NoName55
10-31-2007, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by Idris
I would love to see some of this so called "research"
just go to one of the Masaajid mentioned and see for yourself! simple enough?
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Bittersteel
10-31-2007, 03:38 PM
this could be propaganda or simply the truth.I personally believe that there is rising radicalism in Britain but I go to another forum where the UK Muslim residents who go to Mosques alleged to be radical denied all allegations of hate preaching in those places.
so yes I would like to know who were the researchers.
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جوري
10-31-2007, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by ummzayd
I see the hypocrisy only as relating to the criticism of the content of these books. As long as the books are protected under the banner of 'free speech' then it is quite legitimate that any criticisms are also allowed (though not calls to ban them). It has nothing whatsoever to do with the cartoons or reactions to the cartoons. there is no comparison between these books and the offensive cartoons.

peace
:sl:
Don't you find it amazing. That Palestine is under the occupation of the colonial zionist state of Israel, which is doing all that it is in its power to displace palestinians from their home to refugee camps, if not just down right kill them and be rid the world of them under the guise of whatever crap they spew, and yet begrudge them a cartoon character that speaks against the occupation? Has the world gone mad? Let's put it this way. Israel might be the darling of America and hypocrites every where. hypocrites like arnold shwartznegger who at one point in his life addmitted to admiring Hitler, well he just as easily admires zionist Israel for exact same reasons, the racist ideology and treating people with impunity has not changed under either regimen.. but they certainly won't impose its love on the rest of us.

One day they cry freedom of speech, only when it is freedom to mock our sanctities, but by same token are outraged when we exercise our rights to free speech!


Must everyone in the world conceive these things the way the U.S and Israel conceives them? If so then the problem is not confined to what is called 'lessons in hate or freedom of speech, It is bound to include other folks than Muslims, as well as all people who belong to other cultures; it is in fact bound to include many in the West since there is no consensus among them on the way these things are to be conceived. If your tolerance applies only to those who share your values and , further, conceive them the way you do, you will be making mockery of tolerance and your own definition of 'freedom of speech', which is readiness to coexist peacefully with those who do not share your values, and speak a different truth to yours, that which you might find objectionable!

what tartuffes of all faction is this world filled with?!


:w:
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 04:48 PM
From:
Lessons in hate found at leading mosques in UK
to
Palestine is under the occupation :hmm:

I seem to be missing a lot of "Logical Connections".

Does any of this have anything to do with World War I?
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NoName55
10-31-2007, 05:28 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
From:
Lessons in hate found at leading mosques in UK
to
Palestine is under the occupation :hmm:

I seem to be missing a lot of "Logical Connections".

Does any of this have anything to do with World War I?
could it be that it was an attempt to show how hypocritical and 2 faced you are? :confused:
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
could it be that it was an attempt to show how hypocritical and 2 faced you are? :confused:
Maybe. Or maybe it was an attempt to derail the topic. :?
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جوري
10-31-2007, 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
From:
Lessons in hate found at leading mosques in UK
to
Palestine is under the occupation :hmm:

I seem to be missing a lot of "Logical Connections".

Does any of this have anything to do with World War I?
I am with you, I too was surprised.. after all what does furfur et al. have to do with 'lessons in hate'-- a double blinded hypocrisy doesn't invalidate itself.. what do you think?
Hate after all seems to be universal? not only so when declared by the United states and its allies under law number 4758347683. which they have just concocted while taking a dump, on the account, they don't think they have dismantled our religion and countries quite thoroughly, so here is the punch du jour!


cheers!
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 08:20 PM
Hate after all seems to be universal?
Well we agree on that. But I'm confused as to why you added the "?".

Meanwhile back on topic. I just saw this.
http://dawn.com/2007/10/31/top17.htm
UK mosque body working on code of conduct
By Our Special Correspondent

LONDON, Oct 30: In what is seen here as the first attempt by British Muslims to set the core standards and constitutions for Britain’s 1,350-plus mosques, the year-old Mosques and Imams National Advisory Body (Minab) has drawn up draft proposals to the effect.

The Minab was set up by the Al-Khoei Foundation, the British Muslim Forum, the Muslim Association of Britain and the Muslim Council of Britain.

The draft constitution for the regulatory body, released on Monday after months of internal consultation, proposes increasing the skills and competencies of Imams, developing mosques as centres of community cohesion, citizenship and dialogue and strengthening accountability and governance.

It also proposes improving access of women and young people to mosques. The new body, according to its constitution, would also provide advice on the suitability of Imams and scholars coming from abroad.

Mosques that sign up to the core standards framework would receive practical advice, guidance and support from Minab, a body first recommended by an official government inquiry in the wake of the 7/7 bombings in London.

According to the Guardian, the new proposals came as new research found fundamentalist literature encouraging hatred of Christians, gays and Jews in many British mosques. Researchers for the think-tank Policy Exchange found extremist literature in a quarter of the 100 mosques and Islamic institutions they visited.
Some of the publications called on British Muslims to segregate themselves from non-Muslims and condoned the beheading of lapsed Muslims. There were passages which supported the stoning of adulterers and ‘violent’ Jihad, according to the report, The Hijacking of British Islam.
The government has spoken of the need to improve the language and teaching skills of Imams, but has been reluctant to intervene directly for fear of being seen to interfere in an independent faith body.

A governing council would be established to represent the different strands of Islam in Britain, including guaranteed seats for Shias.

The government has also been frustrated that a number of Imams in Britain were born in Pakistan, speak limited English and preach in Urdu, making it difficult for the government to know what is going on in some mosques.
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جوري
10-31-2007, 09:30 PM
I am not sure what I am supposed to feel after reading the above? That is your 'Guardian's view'-- and it doesnt concern me until such a time they use it to manipulate public opinion against Muslims... so strange to fight so-called hatred with more hatred. even more fresh coming from the number one colonial state in the world, where they used to kill a peron a week and have them hanging in al hosein in cairo to make an example out of them..

on a personal note: I find homosexuality flagrantly obscene and down right disgusting, the same way many of you flinch at pedophilia or sex with animals. But it doesn't mean I hate every homo out there. I hate the act. I feel sorry for the poor saps who humiliate themselves in such a vile manner. and No news paper whether pro or against is going to change that opinion for me!

one final note. I think the govt. should stay out of mosques or any house of worship, if they want to maintain that image of freedom and democracy, 'cause I got to tell you from where I am standing, the double standards is down right hilarious!


cheers!
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Fishman
10-31-2007, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The government has also been frustrated that a number of Imams in Britain were born in Pakistan, speak limited English and preach in Urdu, making it difficult for the government to know what is going on in some mosques.
:sl:
I don't think the main problem is the Urdu speaking imams from Pakistan. They are not usually the extremists, and the ones that are will get little support from young radicals as they don't speak the same language. The real issue is not with the immigrants that the far-right seems to always blame, but the young people who have been born and raised here, who are easily influenced by radical doctrines.
:w:
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
I don't think the main problem is the Urdu speaking imams from Pakistan. They are not usually the extremists, and the ones that are will get little support from young radicals as they don't speak the same language. The real issue is not with the immigrants that the far-right seems to always blame, but the young people who have been born and raised here, who are easily influenced by radical doctrines.
:w:
IMHO Pakistan is the center for extremists.
The future of Pakistan causes me great fear, but then that's another story.
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Fishman
10-31-2007, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
IMHO Pakistan is the center for extremists.
The future of Pakistan causes me great fear, but then that's another story.
:sl:
My experience of Pakistani teachers and Imams is that they have been generally nice and non-extreme. The only extremists I have ever 'met' are the ones on this forum. But, I have never actually been to Pakistan itself, so I can't really comment on the country. I would like to go, but I doubt my parents would let me even when I am seventeen. And I also have a bad phobia of insects, which are common in warm areas. :D
:w:
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
My experience of Pakistani teachers and Imams is that they have been generally nice and non-extreme. The only extremists I have ever 'met' are the ones on this forum. But, I have never actually been to Pakistan itself, so I can't really comment on the country. I would like to go, but I doubt my parents would let me even when I am seventeen. And I also have a bad phobia of insects, which are common in warm areas. :D
:w:
In all do respect, I did state In My Humble Openion.

It is only an openion and I could be wrong. In fact I hope I'm wrong. :hiding:
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Amadeus85
10-31-2007, 10:30 PM
I might be wrong, but i read an interview from an islamic scholar from UK and he said that the root of extremism in UK nowadays is not that the young go to mosques, but because they don't fo it. He said that majority of people attending mosques in England are elderdly people and the young often learn about religion from foreign experts who came from Middle East or Central Asia.
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KAding
11-01-2007, 12:22 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You must have misunderstood me.. I wanted to say the same thing you said. They have the right to posses and sell any kind of literature they want. Denying them that right would be acting against the very foundations of our great civilisation.
No matter how suicidal such toelerance may be, it is still the basis of our society.
Indeed. So the only legitimate refuge left is to keep out those who adhere to these undesirable interpretations of Islam. In other words, stricter immigration control?
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SATalha
11-01-2007, 01:00 AM
One of the Masjid mentioned is the East london Masjid. This is a place that is very dear to me, the Imam (Sheikh Abdul Kayum) Allhamduillilah is the nicest man you can meet. Now we do many works in the East London Masjid, i can garuntee you that this material is not being read or being PUMPED by the ELM. Look judge these places by there actions and not what some neo-cons found while digging in the attick!!!!! i offer anyone in London region to come down to the ELM and see the work that we do....its all positive man.
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Malaikah
11-01-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
According to the Guardian, the new proposals came as new research found fundamentalist literature encouraging hatred of Christians, gays and Jews in many British mosques. Researchers for the think-tank Policy Exchange found extremist literature in a quarter of the 100 mosques and Islamic institutions they visited.
Some of the publications called on British Muslims to segregate themselves from non-Muslims and condoned the beheading of lapsed Muslims. There were passages which supported the stoning of adulterers and ‘violent’ Jihad, according to the report, The Hijacking of British Islam.
I wonder how they define extremist literature. And I wonder if any of the books really did call on British Muslims to actually do those things, or whether they simply said that these are the punishments prescribed by Islamic law.
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Pygoscelis
11-01-2007, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by Nawal89
to put it bluntly, apostates are killed in islam under sharia law, The best place for the woman is her house, even though it is allowed for her to go out, and a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim man.

yes adulterers are stoned and we fight jihad to protect ourself. Thats in the Qurán. Now we cant teach it? Its not extremism dude. It's our religion. Take it or leave it.
I find you refreshingly honest about your views. But frankly if that is your religion and those are practices you seek to go by, you should not be in a country like the UK. By stating what you do here you are making a case for banning your religion there and deporting muslims.

You are free to practice your religion so long as it doesn't conflict with UK law. Much of what you support here does cross that line. And when you put your religion ahead of your country and your fellow citizen, it is time to get rid of you, to put it equally bluntly.
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The_Prince
11-01-2007, 07:16 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I find you refreshingly honest about your views. But frankly if that is your religion and those are practices you seek to go by, you should not be in a country like the UK. By stating what you do here you are making a case for banning your religion there and deporting muslims.

You are free to practice your religion so long as it doesn't conflict with UK law. Much of what you support here does cross that line. And when you put your religion ahead of your country and your fellow citizen, it is time to get rid of you, to put it equally bluntly.
a country LIKE the UK? what u trying to say? that UK is so civilized and a great example? haha oh man i had to laugh there, they let so many criminals and rapists and sex offenders go free every week you read a report of how a sex offender or a killer attacks someone because the police let them out of jail or just didnt bother watching these ppl after releasing them and putting them on the watch list! yes the UK how lovely where crooks are let free beutiful! just to highlight one case a female student around 20 was murdered brutally by a crazy loose phsyco because he wasnt properly watched or sent back to prison, and they let this female student go check up on his crazy backside all alone. i could go on and on here.

lets not even forget the teen birth rates, oh mannnnnnnn we dont want to go there we really dont. or the fact that they just found out how british society is basically going down the drain health wise because of all the alcohol and smoking being done, but that shouldnt affect the muslims though, but i guess the english will like to blame immigrants and muslims for this as well!

lets not even forget about the recent article that came out confirming police are stopping and searching black people quite alot, not Muslims, but black people in general! ah yes the lovely equality!

if i wanted to carry on id have a book, but the point has been made, so plz dont say LIKE UK as if UK is some shining beacon and a great 'civilized' nation and a role model and so on.


:crickey:
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The_Prince
11-01-2007, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I find you refreshingly honest about your views. But frankly if that is your religion and those are practices you seek to go by, you should not be in a country like the UK. By stating what you do here you are making a case for banning your religion there and deporting muslims.

You are free to practice your religion so long as it doesn't conflict with UK law. Much of what you support here does cross that line. And when you put your religion ahead of your country and your fellow citizen, it is time to get rid of you, to put it equally bluntly.
you know theres something abit funny about your last paragraph, you say i can practice my religion as long as it doesnt conflict with the law, well that basically means i cant make polygamy, but u know whats funny? i cant make polygamy, but i can still go fornicate with as many women as i like even more than 100000000!!!!!!!!! and thats all fine, on top of that say im married im still free to go have adultery with as many women as i want non stopppppppppppppppp.

hmmm yes that makes lots of sense :confused:
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seeker_of_ilm
11-01-2007, 07:25 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I find you refreshingly honest about your views. But frankly if that is your religion and those are practices you seek to go by, you should not be in a country like the UK. By stating what you do here you are making a case for banning your religion there and deporting muslims.

You are free to practice your religion so long as it doesn't conflict with UK law. Much of what you support here does cross that line. And when you put your religion ahead of your country and your fellow citizen, it is time to get rid of you, to put it equally bluntly.
I take it you didn't read when she said:

Bro I think ur missing my whole point. Yes these rules only apply for an islamic state. But that does not mean that we shouldnt learn about it. Because it is afterall part of our religion.
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InToTheRain
11-01-2007, 09:39 AM
Just another Tom, Dick or Harry with little or no knowledge of Islam giving his hate mongering opinion on our religion... as if we haven't got enough people out their throwing oil on the fire...:mmokay:

Originally Posted by Nawal89
to put it bluntly, apostates are killed in islam under sharia law, The best place for the woman is her house, even though it is allowed for her to go out, and a muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non muslim man. These are known laws in Islam. Are we not supposed to teach it now? Are we supposed to water it down to suit the western veiws?



yes adulterers are stoned and we fight jihad to protect ourself. Thats in the Qurán. Now we cant teach it? Its not extremism dude. It's our religion. Take it or leave it.
:sl:

Jazak Allah Khair :thumbs_up
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guyabano
11-01-2007, 09:58 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
a country LIKE the UK? what u trying to say? that UK is so civilized and a great example? haha oh man i had to laugh there, they let so many criminals and rapists and sex offenders
I just wonder how long it will take you to bring up your favorite topics?
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Malaikah
11-01-2007, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I find you refreshingly honest about your views. But frankly if that is your religion and those are practices you seek to go by, you should not be in a country like the UK. By stating what you do here you are making a case for banning your religion there and deporting muslims.

You are free to practice your religion so long as it doesn't conflict with UK law. Much of what you support here does cross that line. And when you put your religion ahead of your country and your fellow citizen, it is time to get rid of you, to put it equally bluntly.
You totally missed the point that punishments can only be administered by teh Islamic state. By authority. Not anyone else.
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KAding
11-01-2007, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
You totally missed the point that punishments can only be administered by teh Islamic state. By authority. Not anyone else.
Which still leaves the question when an Islamic State can legitimately be set up. If Muslims make up half the population + 1? What if certain neighborhoods or cities get a Muslim majority?
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NoName55
11-01-2007, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Which still leaves the question when an Islamic State can legitimately be set up. If Muslims make up half the population + 1? What if certain neighborhoods or cities get a Muslim majority?
oooh yeh they are going to to take over, lets deport and cocentrate them all in Iraq, then Nuke them. ah but that could ruin 31 trillion dollars worth of oil reserves (already mapped) heading our way at rate of 1 trillion dollars per year since war on (saudi) terror in Iraq started
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KAding
11-01-2007, 11:45 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
oooh yeh they are going to to take over, lets deport and cocentrate them all in Iraq, then Nuke them. ah but that could ruin 31 trillion dollars worth of oil reserves (already mapped) heading our way at rate of 1 trillion dollars per year since war on (saudi) terror in Iraq started
:hmm: Was that in reply to my post or did you make a mistake?
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Amadeus85
11-01-2007, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
Which still leaves the question when an Islamic State can legitimately be set up. If Muslims make up half the population + 1? What if certain neighborhoods or cities get a Muslim majority?
I think it already hapenned in Dearborn, in Michigan US.
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aamirsaab
11-01-2007, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Which still leaves the question when an Islamic State can legitimately be set up. If Muslims make up half the population + 1? What if certain neighborhoods or cities get a Muslim majority?
Since we live in a democratic society, an Islam state would only ever come into play if the people voted a pm who would introduce it.

Given the fact that society thinks Islam stinks right now, you guys have nowt to worry 'bout. Well, as far as islamic states in the west is concerned.
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MTAFFI
11-01-2007, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
oooh yeh they are going to to take over, lets deport and cocentrate them all in Iraq, then Nuke them. ah but that could ruin 31 trillion dollars worth of oil reserves (already mapped) heading our way at rate of 1 trillion dollars per year since war on (saudi) terror in Iraq started
I have to wonder a couple things about this

a) What is it doing in this thread
b) were the oil reserves not already mapped out
c) why am i still paying 3 dollars a gallon for gas if we are stealing so much oil
d) what makes everyone think this war is about oil, when not a single free drop has come to the US? Prove one free drop has come here and I will concede, but the fact is most of the US oil doesnt even come from the middle east and the argument that 31 trillion dollars worth of oil is being somehow stolen or confiscated is as old as it is stupid
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The_Prince
11-01-2007, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by KAding
Which still leaves the question when an Islamic State can legitimately be set up. If Muslims make up half the population + 1? What if certain neighborhoods or cities get a Muslim majority?
even if you have a muslim majority, you cant take the law into your own hands, you need OFFICIAL authority, not even self confessed authority figures, but actual official authority figures.
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Pygoscelis
11-01-2007, 06:48 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
You totally missed the point that punishments can only be administered by teh Islamic state. By authority. Not anyone else.
1. If its only for when in an Islamic state why is this literature being spread in the UK, spreading the ideas to do these horrible things if it will never "really" be practiced there?

2. Once you spread this ideology do you really think everybody is going to wait for the state to officially do these things?

3. Just because the state is killing people doesn't make it less abhorent. And in the killing them because they are apostates case, its saying kill them because of their religious views. Thats really not so different from why the holocaust happened.
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Pygoscelis
11-01-2007, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
a country LIKE the UK?
Yes. A country like the UK. Where its not ok to be killing people for having affairs or for changing their religious views. I shudder to think what the torture may be that you'd bring upon the homosexuals or nudists.

And for the record, since you brought it up, I'm cool with poligamy and poliandry. It really shouldn't be the state's business who marries who. Thats a law that needs to be changed. It stems from the old christian dark ages in europe.
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Muezzin
11-01-2007, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
1. If its only for when in an Islamic state why is this literature being spread in the UK, spreading the ideas to do these horrible things if it will never "really" be practiced there?
So people can learn about it. Not everybody sees it as horrible. And there's nothing wrong with learning about laws of other countries, or different ideologies. Freedom of thought, my friend.

2. Once you spread this ideology do you really think everybody is going to wait for the state to officially do these things?
So are you saying people aren't allowed to spread ideologies that might lead to *gasp* r..r... revolution*?! :p

If so, that argument sounds very McCarthy era-ish. If not, then I've misunderstood you and am a butthead.

3. Just because the state is killing people doesn't make it less abhorent. And in the killing them because they are apostates case, its saying kill them because of their religious views. Thats really not so different from why the holocaust happened.
Mein Kampf is also available in all good bookshops.** Nobody complains about it because they're not being forced to buy and read it. Similarly, nobody is being forced to buy and read this literature. Which, might I add, nobody on this thread (save one member) actually has been privy to, apart from vague references to 'research'. Book titles? Authors? The ratio of the 'bad books' to the 'good books'? All this stuff is missing because including it would take away from the schlock effect of the article.

*I don't think this will lead to revolution, any humourless internet trolls wanting to take words out of context.

**Don't read Mein Kampf. You have freedom of thought and freedom to spend the money in your wallet or use your library card, but because I disagree with Hitler and think him one of the most evil men in history, I'm going to attempt to rob you of your chance to read whatever the hell you want. Go freedom!
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MTAFFI
11-01-2007, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
a butthead.
a "butthead"???? perhaps a buttface, but surely not the whole head....

lol, j/k :hiding:
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Amadeus85
11-01-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin

Mein Kampf is also available in all good bookshops.** Nobody complains about it because they're not being forced to buy and read it.
Really? Its bit shock for me because in central Europe and Germany Mein Kampf is illegal and you can go to jail for seelling this erhmm book. :mmokay:
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Isambard
11-01-2007, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yes. A country like the UK. Where its not ok to be killing people for having affairs or for changing their religious views. I shudder to think what the torture may be that you'd bring upon the homosexuals or nudists.

And for the record, since you brought it up, I'm cool with poligamy and poliandry. It really shouldn't be the state's business who marries who. Thats a law that needs to be changed. It stems from the old christian dark ages in europe.
The problem isnt moral, its that tax laws get sticky when married to more than one person.
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Isambard
11-01-2007, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
So people can learn about it. Not everybody sees it as horrible. And there's nothing wrong with learning about laws of other countries, or different ideologies. Freedom of thought, my friend.


So are you saying people aren't allowed to spread ideologies that might lead to *gasp* r..r... revolution*?! :p

If so, that argument sounds very McCarthy era-ish. If not, then I've misunderstood you and am a butthead.


Mein Kampf is also available in all good bookshops.** Nobody complains about it because they're not being forced to buy and read it. Similarly, nobody is being forced to buy and read this literature. Which, might I add, nobody on this thread (save one member) actually has been privy to, apart from vague references to 'research'. Book titles? Authors? The ratio of the 'bad books' to the 'good books'? All this stuff is missing because including it would take away from the schlock effect of the article.

*I don't think this will lead to revolution, any humourless internet trolls wanting to take words out of context.

**Don't read Mein Kampf. You have freedom of thought and freedom to spend the money in your wallet or use your library card, but because I disagree with Hitler and think him one of the most evil men in history, I'm going to attempt to rob you of your chance to read whatever the hell you want. Go freedom!
My only problem with whats in the article is not that folks have acces to this sort of material, its that children will have access to it. Its one thing to read 'controversial' literature if your older and understand its implications, but its another if you are young and more likely impressionable.

I mean think about it, do you really want to freely hand out copies of the Anarchist Cookbook to bored teens?:hmm:
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NoName55
11-01-2007, 10:49 PM
anarchists cook book and (alleged, as I've not seen them yet) listing of shariah laws (NOT much different to Laws of Moses) are equally bad?

wow! with an Islamic site like this who need any thing else
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snakelegs
11-01-2007, 11:24 PM
isn't the study of an islamic state just a part of the study of islamic jurisprudence?
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NoName55
11-01-2007, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
isn't the study of an islamic state just a part of the study of islamic jurisprudence?
the whole thing is taught even in American, British and Pakistani universities

besides that it is ridiculous to allow this person to compare Shariah with anarchist cookbook which is all about annoying and tormenting people

I cannot remember seeing any children playacting the role of a court judges and dispensing punishments but I have seen many (from different religions/races) acting and being anti social just like or worse than this troll who seems to be a fave with a certain mod.

wa salam
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snakelegs
11-01-2007, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
the whole thing is taught even in American, British and Pakistani universities

besides that it is ridiculous to allow this person to compare Shariah with anarchist cookbook which is all about annoying and tormenting people

I cannot remember seeing any children playacting the role of a court judges and dispensing punishments but I have seen many acting and being anti social just like this troll who seems to be a fave with a certain mod.

wa salam
islamic law is really quite similar to jewish law. i think both are legitimate areas of study.
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NoName55
11-01-2007, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
islamic law is really quite similar to jewish law. i think both are legitimate areas of study.
now only if someone could convince the site bosses of that may be then this mockery of a discussion would end and we could get back to the business of learning facts (as is the purported aim of the site)!


wasalam
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جوري
11-02-2007, 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Really? Its bit shock for me because in central Europe and Germany Mein Kampf is illegal and you can go to jail for seelling this erhmm book. :mmokay:
What do you know, here it is at amazon
http://www.amazon.com/Mein-Kampf-Ado...3963441&sr=8-1

with such rave reviews like
The Hobo Philosopher, August 30, 2007
By Richard E. Noble "The Hobo Philosopher" (Florida Panhandle) - See all my reviews


I read this book for its political, intellectual, and philosophical content
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Isambard
11-02-2007, 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
anarchists cook book and (alleged, as I've not seen them yet) listing of shariah laws (NOT much different to Laws of Moses) are equally bad?

wow! with an Islamic site like this who need any thing else
Im assuming the material discovered is particularly nasty stuff ie. Jews=pigs, violent action agaisnt kuffar etc.

If its just regular shariah stuff then they are just being squiemesh and should arrest church go-ers for their 'controversial material' ie Bible.
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Malaikah
11-02-2007, 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
My only problem with whats in the article is not that folks have acces to this sort of material, its that children will have access to it. Its one thing to read 'controversial' literature if your older and understand its implications, but its another if you are young and more likely impressionable.
Children?? There is no way children would be ready those books, they are academic style books, boring by children standards!
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Muezzin
11-02-2007, 12:54 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Im assuming the material discovered is particularly nasty stuff ie. Jews=pigs, violent action agaisnt kuffar etc.
Assume being the operative word considering none of us here (save one) has even been to the place and seen the books in question.

If its just regular shariah stuff then they are just being squiemesh and should arrest church go-ers for their 'controversial material' ie Bible.
Exactly.

Also, this thread is not about sharia law as such. Methinks I'll have to go on another off-topic deleting... I mean recycling spree. Again.
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NoName55
11-02-2007, 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Im assuming the material discovered is particularly nasty stuff ie. Jews=pigs, violent action agaisnt kuffar etc.

If its just regular shariah stuff then they are just being squiemesh and should arrest church go-ers for their 'controversial material' ie Bible.
Jews = eqauls Ahle-e-kitaab or People of The Book in authentic Islaam and I do not care what deviant Shiites or other illiterate retards under the influence of deviants think or say (but a troll cannot be expected to know that)

assume away as you like I dont think any one of staff are going to stop you (I learnt that from experience i.e I report your assumptions to a certain mod as well as reply to your posts, he simply deletes my replies as off-topic leaving your post intact)

maybe if I stop PMing him, my replies would last a bit longer!
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Isambard
11-02-2007, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Children?? There is no way children would be ready those books, they are academic style books, boring by children standards!
Thats assuming these are academic. Seeing how they only targeted this one place Im guessing its different from stuff youll find in your run-of-the-mill mosque which leads one to assume it borders on hate literature. I myself being a sort of conesouir (sp?) of this type of material can honestly say that alot of it is not academic by any stretch of the mind. Quite the opposite, its incredibly simply borderng on stupid (See Protocals of the Elders of Zion).

Its made for anyone to understand, even children. Sometimes the ppl peddling this stuff may try to attract children either thru seemingly okay cartoons (Chick Tracts) to even fluffy children programming (Furfur).

Now if it is the case that what they had is 'contreversial literature' then Im all for the action taken in shutting down the place as trying to indoctrine children into a hateful ideology is simply wrong.

Anyways, Itd be nice if someone posted something a little more concrete. Some of the material/titles in question would be nice.
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Isambard
11-02-2007, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by NoName55
Jews = eqauls Ahle-e-kitaab or People of The Book in authentic Islaam and I do not care what deviant Shiites or other illiterate retards under the influence of deviants think or say (but a troll cannot be expected to know that)

Funny that by the way I structured my sentence, I indicated the seperation that you accuse me of not making.

Perhaps taking a class in writing would hlp you in the future.

assume away as you like I dont think any one of staff are going to stop you (I learnt that from experience i.e I report your assumptions to a certain mod as well as reply to your posts, he simply deletes my replies as off-topic leaving your post intact)

You are correct, educated guess are absolutely terrible. Sure the facts we do have arnt conclusive but still point us toward that this particular place was doing something naughty because it was the only mosque targeted, but hey you are a man agaisnt logical conclusions. You certainly are brave. *rolls eyes*

maybe if I stop PMing him, my replies would last a bit longer!
Or perhaps lessening your whining may help.
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The_Prince
11-02-2007, 02:35 AM
notice the mein kampf book on amazon has gotten good reviews by the readers.

i think im going to get this book.
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Isambard
11-02-2007, 03:27 AM
Originally Posted by The_Prince
notice the mein kampf book on amazon has gotten good reviews by the readers.

i think im going to get this book.
Go for it. Just make sure your prepared cause as much as Hittler hated the Jews, he also wasnt a fan of the 'lesser animal races'.:mmokay:
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aamirsaab
11-02-2007, 09:31 AM
:sl:
Hmm, for a society that holds so dearly their beloved freedoms, I wonder why they are so quick to ban (effectively) a book.

Oh wait, this is a human society. Now I get it!
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NoName55
11-02-2007, 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Funny that by the way I structured my sentence, I indicated the seperation that you accuse me of not making.

Perhaps taking a class in writing would hlp you in the future.

You are correct, educated guess are absolutely terrible. Sure the facts we do have arnt conclusive but still point us toward that this particular place was doing something naughty because it was the only mosque targeted, but hey you are a man agaisnt logical conclusions. You certainly are brave. *rolls eyes*
Or perhaps lessening your whining may help.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post852494
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InToTheRain
11-02-2007, 12:29 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Im assuming the material discovered is particularly nasty stuff ie. Jews=pigs.
Regarding the Jews turning into Pigs:

The Hypocrites used to critisice and mock the Muslims call to Prayer and in this regard the verses were revealed as explained here:

[PIE]Allah said

﴿وَإِذَا نَـدَيْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَوةِ اتَّخَذُوهَا هُزُواً وَلَعِباً﴾

(And when you proclaim the call for the Salah, they take it (but) as a mockery and fun;) When you proclaim the Adhan for the prayer, which is the best action there is, for those who have sound minds and good comprehension,

﴿اتَّخَذُوهَا﴾

(they take it...) also,

﴿هُزُواً وَلَعِباً ذلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْقِلُونَ﴾

(as a mockery and fun; that is because they are a people who understand not.) the acts of worship and Allah's Law. These are the characteristics of the followers of Shaytan who,

«إِذَا سَمِعَ الْأَذَانَ أَدْبَرَ وَلَهُ حُصَاصٌ، أَيْ ضُرَاطٌ، حَتَّى لَا يَسْمَعَ التَّأْذِينَ فَإِذَا قُضِيَ التَّأْذِينُ، أَقْبَلَ فَإِذَا ثُوِّبَ لِلصَّلَاةِ أَدْبَرَ، فَإِذَا قُضِيَ التَّثْوِيبُ أَقْبَلَ حَتَّى يَخْطُرَ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَقَلْبِهِ، فَيَقُولُ: اذْكُرْ كَذَا اذْكُرْ كَذَا، لِمَا لَمْ يَكُنْ يَذْكُرُ حَتَّى يَظَلَّ الرَّجُلُ لَا يَدْرِي كَمْ صَلَّى، فَإِذَا وَجَدَ أَحَدُكُمْ ذلِكَ، فَلْيَسْجُدْ سَجْدَتَيْنِ قَبْلَ السَّلَام»

(When the call for prayer is made, Shaytan takes to his heels passing wind so that he may not hear the Adhan. When the call is finished he comes back, and when the Iqamah is pronounced, Shaytan again takes to his heels. When the Iqamah is finished he comes back again and tries to interfere with the person and his thoughts and to say, `Remember this and that,' which he has not thought of before the prayer, until the praying person forgets how much he has prayed. If anyone of you does not remember, then he should perform two prostrations before pronouncing the Salam.) This Hadith is agreed upon. Az-Zuhri said, "Allah mentioned the Adhan in His Book,

﴿وَإِذَا نَـدَيْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلَوةِ اتَّخَذُوهَا هُزُواً وَلَعِباً ذلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْقِلُونَ ﴾

(And when you proclaim the call for the Salah, they take it (but) as a mockery and fun; that is because they are a people who understand not.)'' Ibn Abi Hatim recorded this statement.

(59. Say: "O People of the Scripture! Do you criticize us for no other reason than that we believe in Allah, and in what has been sent down to us and in that which has been sent down before (us), and that most of you are rebellious'') (60. Say: "Shall I inform you of something worse than that, regarding the recompense from Allah: those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, and those of whom He transformed into monkeys and swine, and those who worshipped Taghut; such are worse in rank, and far more astray from the straight path.'') (61. When they come to you, they say: "We believe.'' But in fact they enter with disbelief and they go out with the same. And Allah knows all that they were hiding.) (62. And you see many of them hurrying for sin and transgression, and eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been doing.) (63. Why do not the Rabbaniyyun and the Ahbar forbid them from uttering sinful words and from eating illegal things. Evil indeed is that which they have been performing.)

So from the above verses we learn that there were people of Bani(children of) Israel that were turned into apes and pigs yes. (Hence the insult "brothers of apes and pigs"...of course such behaviour isn't encouraged).

[What is Taghut: In Islamic context, Taghut refers to idolatry, considered impurity. This can be anything worshipped other than Allah, such as deities of other religions or people claiming themselves to be holy outside of Islam's definition. Compare: Shirk (polytheism) The plural of Taghut is Tawagheet.][/PIE]

This did not happen during the time of our Ummah, it happened long ago to SOME earlier jewish ummah. So does this mean that the Jews today are descendants of Pigs and Apes as said in the Qur'an? NO! This has been clarified by Mohammad(SAW) and the validity of this hadith is not disputed:

Book 033, Number 6438:

Abdullah reported that Umm Habiba, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), said: 0 Allah, enable me to derive benefit from my husband, the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), and from my father Abu Sufyan and from my brother Mu'awiya. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: You have asked from Allah about durations of life already set, and the length of days already allotted and the sustenances the share of which has been fixed. Allah would not do anything earlier before its due time, or He would not delay anything beyond its due time. And if you were to ask Allah to provide you refuge from the torment of the HellFire, or from the torment of the grave, it would have good in store for you and better for you also. He (the narrator) further said: Mention was made before him about monkeys, and Mis'ar (one of the narrators) said: I think that (the narrator) also (made a mention) of the swine, which had suffered metamorphosis. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Verily, Allah did not cause the race of those which suffered metamorphosis to grow or they were not survived by young ones. Monkeys and swine had been in existence even before (the metamorphosis of the human beings).
Reply

Isambard
11-02-2007, 01:19 PM
Z., I understand the difference. It becomes hateful when you take it beyond what is said in the Qur'an and say Jews are pigs in disguise, which can be seen in some of the 'spicy' material out there.

That would be a main differentiation between standard Islamic literature vs. hate-literature disguising itself as Islamic literature.
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-02-2007, 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
My only problem with whats in the article is not that folks have acces to this sort of material, its that children will have access to it. Its one thing to read 'controversial' literature if your older and understand its implications, but its another if you are young and more likely impressionable.

I mean think about it, do you really want to freely hand out copies of the Anarchist Cookbook to bored teens?:hmm:
Its not only that. Its also that its being pushed by a religious institution that is looked up to by people and that people will too often fail to question.
Reply

czgibson
11-02-2007, 02:19 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Its not only that. Its also that its being pushed by a religious institution that is looked up to by people and that people will too often fail to question.
That is exactly the point that has been waiting to be mentioned in this thread for too long. It is also why the comparison with 'Mein Kampf' is a red-herring.

Freedom of speech exists to a certain extent in Britain, yes, but inciting religious hatred is illegal. That is why the controversy exists.

Peace
Reply

InToTheRain
11-02-2007, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Z., I understand the difference. It becomes hateful when you take it beyond what is said in the Qur'an and say Jews are pigs in disguise, which can be seen in some of the 'spicy' material out there.

That would be a main differentiation between standard Islamic literature vs. hate-literature disguising itself as hate literature.
thats Cool :D so long as your aware that it is not taught in Islam :thumbs_up
Lets hope those that write and say such hateful words also realise this...

peace
Reply

NoName55
11-02-2007, 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
thats Cool :D so long as your aware that it is not taught in Islam :thumbs_up
Lets hope those that write and say such hateful words also realise this...

peace
tell it also to sudais and ghamidi
Reply

جوري
11-02-2007, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson

Freedom of speech exists to a certain extent in Britain, yes, but inciting religious hatred is illegal. That is why the controversy exists.

Peace
lol.. can we spell hypocrisy please or are you simply to good to be true?
Please try that vehemence at the rallies of MR. Pipes.. the latest at George town. I am sure a man so up to date on current events is familiar with it?
how did it go?
Oh yes
"Do you hate Muslims? We do to"
Join us and see what we can do about it!
I try to maintain some level of decorum, but frankly you've just gotten on my last nerve.
Face it, it is freedom of speech only when you are inciting anti-Islamic sentiment. Everything else simply crosses the limits. And yes-- in my book and most discerning folks, there is no greater example of western hypocrisy, of which I can consider you now a poster boy!..



cheers
Reply

InToTheRain
11-02-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
tell it also to sudais and ghamidi
Bro, it appears you don't know, those Sudais and Ghamdi are Hafiz so I am sure they are aware of what I am saying :D

:w:
Reply

czgibson
11-02-2007, 03:38 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
lol.. can we spell hypocrisy please or are you simply to good to be true?
I can spell 'hypocrisy'. I can also spell the word 'too'. Whether I am too good to be true is a matter of opinion. Thank you for bringing the question to public attention, though.
Please try that vehemence at the rallies of MR. Pipes.. the latest at George town. I am sure a man so up to date on current events is familiar with it?
I'm not familiar with Mr Pipes, whoever he may be, but if he's inciting religious hatred, as you've suggested, then I would condemn him.
I try to maintain some level of decorum, but frankly you've just gotten on my last nerve.
When have you ever tried to maintain decorum? You are without question the rudest person on this site by some distance.

Face it, it is freedom of speech only when you are inciting anti-Islamic sentiment. Everything else simply crosses the limits. And yes-- in my book and most discerning folks, there is no greater example of western hypocrisy, of which I can consider you now a poster boy!..
Thank you for that. Other than the insults, I can't actually make out any real point or argument there.

Peace
Reply

NoName55
11-02-2007, 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Z.AL-Rashid
Bro, it appears you don't know, those Sudais and Ghamdi are Hafiz so I am sure they are aware of what I am saying :D

:w:
except for the fact that they have their unique interpretations but I cant expand on their views on a site such as this where Islam hating troll will be allowed may be even encouraged to pick one line out of context then run with it! and I will get 45% x 2 infractions for insulting scholars

:w:
Reply

NoName55
11-02-2007, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can spell 'hypocrisy'. I can also spell the word 'too'. Whether I am too good to be true is a matter of opinion. Thank you for bringing the question to public attention, though.


I'm not familiar with Mr Pipes, whoever he may be, but if he's inciting religious hatred, as you've suggested, then I would condemn him.


When have you ever tried to maintain decorum? You are without question the rudest person on this site by some distance.



Thank you for that. Other than the insults, I can't actually make out any real point or argument there.

Peace
go on pull the other one! I have come to believe that most of you, here, are on the same team!!!
Reply

InToTheRain
11-02-2007, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by NoName55
except for the fact that they have their unique interpretations but I cant expand on their views on a site such as this where Islam hating troll will be allowed may be even encouraged to pick one line out of context then run with it!
:w:
LOL, I see :D PM the details Insha'Allah. Jazak Allah.

:w:
Reply

جوري
11-02-2007, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


I can spell 'hypocrisy'. I can also spell the word 'too'. Whether I am too good to be true is a matter of opinion. Thank you for bringing the question to public attention, though.
Good for you, can you as equally pick up on rhetoric?


I'm not familiar with Mr Pipes, whoever he may be, but if he's inciting religious hatred, as you've suggested, then I would condemn him.
I haven't seen condemnation by your person, of anything other than toward Muslims.. or have I missed something in the title? 'Lessons in hate found at leading mosques in UK' Maybe you just enjoy selective reading, oh leader of the pack?

When have you ever tried to maintain decorum? You are without question the rudest person on this site by some distance.
lol... Did I hurt your feelers? or can you not just take as equally harsh and abusive criticism, the likes which you dispense here daily?



Thank you for that. Other than the insults, I can't actually make out any real point or argument there.
Then don't participate here! You are bound to hear something you are not going to like!
Reply

czgibson
11-02-2007, 04:42 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I haven't seen condemnation by your person, of anything other than toward Muslims..
I can't count the number of times I've denounced violence and Islamophobia on this forum.

or have I missed something in the title? 'Lessons in hate found at leading mosques in UK' Maybe you just enjoy selective reading, oh leader of the pack?
The only part of the title that can be attributed to me was 'in UK', just to make the topic of the thread clear. The title 'Lessons in hate found at leading mosques' was made up by the Times' journalist.

I simply posted the article to find out what the reaction would be. I know that the hatred referred to by the article is not a part of mainstream Islam, but there are, it seems, many who don't. That is a problem for the Muslim community, and therefore all of us, wouldn't you agree?
lol... Did I hurt your feelers?
Just look at the state of me: :'(

or can you not just take as equally harsh and abusive criticism, the likes which you dispense here daily?
I can certainly take criticism, I just don't think there's any need for rudeness.

You're the first person on the forum to accuse me of being 'harsh and abusive'. That's not my intention, and I'm sorry you feel that way. If the mods feel the same way I'd like them to let me know at their first opportunity.

Then don't participate here! You are bound to hear something you are not going to like!
Stop participating? Because of one person who has a grudge against me? Sorry.

I'd like to apologise to everyone for scarring this thread with what's beginning to smell dangerously like beef. The mods will probably chuck these posts pretty soon. Sorry guys.

Peace
Reply

aamirsaab
11-02-2007, 04:45 PM
:sl:
I think it is crystal clear that society actually doesn't know the true meaning of freedom of speech. As PA rightfully said: ''Face it, it is freedom of speech only when you are inciting anti-Islamic sentiment. Everything else simply crosses the limits.''
This is certainly how the majority of muslims feel and even though people may grow tire of it being said, it still does not negate the statement.

There is indeed a huge double standard in the west, but I will and always will abide by the system, in full knowledge of the numerous double standards, since Islam tells us that we should follow the laws of the land that we live in. In other words: I'll abide by the rules/laws but it doesn't mean I like them or that I agree with them :)

This is how people should use their freedom of speech; on thought-provoking, meaningful and intellectual communication as opposed to BS.
Reply

جوري
11-02-2007, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

I can't count the number of times I've denounced violence and Islamophobia on this forum.
I am not sure your intention then with this article?

The only part of the title that can be attributed to me was 'in UK', just to make the topic of the thread clear. The title 'Lessons in hate found at leading mosques' was made up by the Times' journalist.
From which I am to deduce?-- how Muslims are vagabonds, an uncivilized bunch?

I simply posted the article to find out what the reaction would be. I know that the hatred referred to by the article is not a part of mainstream Islam, but there are, it seems, many who don't. That is a problem for the Muslim community, and therefore all of us, wouldn't you agree?
I consider it a part of their free speech. The same way Mr. Daniel pipes peddles his crap against Muslims day in and day out.. Something has got to give..

Just look at the state of me: :'(
Try a chilled beverage. I find it soothing when I am seething!


I can certainly take criticism, I just don't think there's any need for rudeness.
I guess that goes both ways. Prior I have told you we run by different clocks.. it is all a matter of perceptual experience!

You're the first person on the forum to accuse me of being 'harsh and abusive'. That's not my intention, and I'm sorry you feel that way. If the mods feel the same way I'd like them to let me know at their first opportunity.
You are just really skilled at it.. that it will pass!


Stop participating? Because of one person who has a grudge against me? Sorry.
I assure you I have better things to do with my life than hold a grudge.. I just do it to entertain myself-- you know to relax! :smile:


cheers
Reply

wilberhum
11-02-2007, 10:38 PM
Freedoms and how I feel about them.
Freedom of speech, expression, press, religion, and Etc.
I conceder them among my greatest gifts.
But there in fact down sides.
I do not approve of porno but I will tolerate it because I don’t want some one coming along and throwing paint on the Mona Lisa, or taking a jack hammer to the statue of David because they think they are pornographic.

You may find it odd, but I respect Larry Flint as a fighter for freedoms, yet I would be discussed if any “house of god” would sell his work.

I feel the same about writings that create hate and intolerance. I appose those writings but would never want them to become illegal because there are things we need to hate and I would not like someone else to make that determination for me.

Even more than Porno, books that promote hate have no place in any “house of god” and I am discussed that they would be there.
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-02-2007, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
I think it is crystal clear that society actually doesn't know the true meaning of freedom of speech. As PA rightfully said: ''Face it, it is freedom of speech only when you are inciting anti-Islamic sentiment. Everything else simply crosses the limits.''
There is no doubt that muslims are a group that is frequently attacked in the west, and especially in the USA (it certainly insn't the only such group).

There is a lot of confusion about what Islam is and what Islam wants and intends regarding the rest of us. The writings that are the topic of this thread serve as fuel to this fire.

When people declare that they find it good to kill people for things such as adultery or having a difference of opinion on a religous matter it should not be suprising that others will hear this and grow concerned about the danger that appears to represent. It then often grows and exagerates and turns into something ugly. Add the backdrop of islamic terrorist attacks and you've got a surefire recipe for bigotry against muslims.
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-02-2007, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
You may find it odd, but I respect Larry Flint as a fighter for freedoms, yet I would be discussed if any “house of god” would sell his work.
You would be discussed? What would they say about you? You are connected to this selling nudie books in churches?

Ha. Just teasin ya. That is one funny typo though. :D
Reply

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