Devoted Child

[tetsujin]

To whom it may concern,

My name is Faysal, I am young man of nearly 21 years. I am seeking assistance in order to better understand the world around me, and have written this because you may be qualified to help me.

I born in a family of Muslims in Pakistan, and have spent a great amount of time following traditions and learning about my background. Shortly after my birth, my family moved to Saudi Arabia and a few years later to the United States of America where I spent most of my childhood. Despite living in a secular society, I was raised as a traditional Muslim boy and even began fasting and praying at an early age. I learned how to read Arabic in order to recite the Qur’an and intermittently studied Islamic teachings after school and on the weekends if such services were available locally.

Over the past 10 years I have spent a vast amount of time studying the human society and the subsequent interactions, as well as the effects of personal beliefs on those relationships in a secular society. My struggles began when I was nearly 13 years of age and began to ask questions that were relevant to my way of life. The answers to these questions did not come easily; I've spent many nights awake, many trips to libraries, and a great deal of time in quiet contemplation that was afforded to me by a lack of siblings and hardworking parents. I began to join debates and public lectures as well as observe the people around me. Through all of my findings I can tell you that life itself became quite a depressing state of affairs. Despite all of this, I tried to prolong my judgments until I felt that my conclusion was entirely inescapable. After 6 years, and many grey hairs I have come to the conclusion that I am not Muslim, that I never was, and despite my efforts as a child I did not understand myself and religion the way it was meant to be understood.

I have no qualms about my past. I feel no animosity towards my parents, or family, or towards to efforts of good Muslims who are trying to make this world a better place by following the teachings of the prophet and applying themselves.

I find that I can only define myself as an atheist. I have realized that the only logical position, the only thing that can be determined with everything that can be learned is that a God does not exist. I seek your assistance for one of two reasons. First, I have reason to believe that my parents will be quite upset to learn this fact and therefore I need to let them know in a manner in which I can continue my relationship with them as much as possible. Secondly, what am I to do if in the extreme case that this news results in my exile from the family or that this is of no issue and that I lose nothing other than parents who may have been happier if I lived my life in deceit? My interests lie in supporting my parents as they grow older as they supported me as a child both emotionally as well as financially.

Please be advised that I may share your response with friends, family, and others who may wish to help me, or otherwise learn what I have learned, in the future.


Sincerely,

Faysal

[Al-Zaara]

Thread approved.

[Re.TiReD]

Peace, your thread made me cry, :cry:

islam is beautiful, it always was to those that try to understand it...I know that you cant force it upon a person or force your heart to accept but all the same i pray for Allah to guide you back Insha'Allah. And Allah guides whomsoever He wills.

With regards to your parents I think honesty is the best policy, however that would depend entirely on how YOU feel about the situation, if you feel you want to protect your parents as they are growing older I would leave it, provided that your decision about your faith will not otherwise affect them in any major way. All the best

[Woodrow]

Peace,

This will be a very difficult time for you. It is nearly impossible for a Muslim to comprehend how another Muslim could select Atheism. However, many people of your age do think of it as a choice. Rather than being critical of your choice it is far better if we could understand why you made this decision.

Perhaps you may want to share your thoughts with us before you face your parents. We will not agree with your choice, but it may be better for you to express your views and understand the arguments before facing your parents.

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[guyabano]

Once you made a choice, stand to it. Go your way and I hope you will find what you are looking for. But your parents will remain your parents. Respect their religion and their believings. I'm pretty sure, they will also assist in your struggles to find your truth

[snakelegs]

wow, you are in a painful situation!
islam is really quite broad, though there are those who make it narrow. personally, i think you can find all you need right where you are and there is no need to leave or change. your understanding of your religion may be different than that of those who surround you, but ultimately each person's relationship with god is different and unique, isn't it?
i would ask you to do yet more soul searching before you take any action. i would certainly not rush to tell your parents. this is a major step and it will change your life and theirs, and probably not for the better.
you are young and probably torn between cultures. this is challenging at best. do not be quick to make any final decisions. it is normal to question and have doubt. turning your back on your culture and tradition/heritage and your family should not be done lightly. i know you have given this much thought, but please give it more. there is not hurry - this is a major issue.
woodrow's suggestion is a good one.

[جوري]

Think you should move out.
As open minded as I like to consider myself being.
I'd be devestated if I were your parents, like I have failed on every level to have you for a son.
Having you there would be a constant reminder. I Think the best thing for you to do is move out or at least not bring this to their attention, if you have some measure of gratitude in the very least to the woman who carried you in her deep. You'll not be a constant painful memory to her..

cheers and Good luck to you!

[snakelegs]

thinking about this a little more.
since you have not adopted another religion, i really don't see any reason to take action at all.
it is no secret that there are practicing and non-practicing muslims, and also that the level of practice may vary over a person's lifetime.
i see no reason why you must make a final decision at this point and break your parents' hearts.

[جوري]

'tis the caprice of youth...
When I was 20, I thought I knew everything, I was flaunting my knowledge of every piece of art in the Frick Collection, to anyone who'd listen, and thought having read "Proust's "Swan's Way"" and the Quand le ciel bas et lourd in french by Baudelaire meant I was on top of the world.. Going to grad school I was asked to leave my dignity at the door and as the years progressed I realized just how much of everything I don't know and lost all forbearance to my former self and any one who remotely represented it!

But I have to admit even worst than twenty year olds to me are teenagers. Just think it should be a rites of passage that they all go to some boot camp and get their behinds collectively whipped some three or four times a day..plus I wish I can make some uniform clothing line of either brown, grey or navy blue as I am so sick of every teenage little girl who looks like a run away h o o k e r and every teenage kid who wears his jeans down to his knees so that everyone can have a look at his man panties. I truly apologize for the digression.. just thought I'd get that off my chest!


peace!

[jouju]

am jus sad but i feel for you
If you r scared of ur parents wat about ur lord the creator???Rem ridhallah fi ridhal waalidayn wa sakhatallah....
Look around u..Allah's signs are everywhere..his beautiful creations.
Am a medical student so have dissected d human body....we were certainly created to perfection..every thing is so perfect..
fatabaarakallahu ahsanal khaaliqiin

HOW then can Allah not be present
Alhamdullila, am happy to say i feel HIS presence everywhere coz He is everywhere
I hope u make d ryt decision...am praying for you

innaddiina inda Allah Al-islaam

Allah also says he wont accept any religion yawmul qiyama except islaam

Am rily praying for you...

i myt have sounded harsh but its how i feel

[Nazia_hk]

Believe me there are so many of us that have gone through this phase. But alhumdulillah Allah guides whom he wills and thus don't let it go comepletly. I coudn't think of myself of a muslim as well, I hated it when my parents whould ask me to pray, as I thought I would only be putting up an act and felt nothing inside. No matter how mush I tried to reason with myself I just couldn't think any religion exited. (astaghfirullah) And I regret all thouse moments...

But then finally at the age 21 after all this time when I thought I may never have emaan like my parents and family, did Allah guide me. Look around once again brother, eveything really is perfect as the quran states. The earth was not created out of mere coincidence, even if so, soo many coincidences at the same time!! Go on tabligh, give yourself some time and space, give the bothers there a chance to explain things to you, feel the atmosphere ther, its truly amazing. Also, did you try reading the quran with it's translations?? Read them over and over. Look around the forum there are so many converts, they inspire me, find out why they converted.

Again, please don't let it go completey, don't annouce anything yet. Insha'allah I pray, with time and some more soul searching you find your emaan.

[tetsujin]

Thread approved.

Thank you very much Al Zaara, I was beginning to wonder if it would be approved. I can actually see that my attempt at posting this the week earlier was also approved, but we’ll let that thread fade away.

Peace, your thread made me cry, :cry:

islam is beautiful, it always was to those that try to understand it...I know that you cant force it upon a person or force your heart to accept but all the same i pray for Allah to guide you back Insha'Allah. And Allah guides whomsoever He wills.

With regards to your parents I think honesty is the best policy, however that would depend entirely on how YOU feel about the situation, if you feel you want to protect your parents as they are growing older I would leave it, provided that your decision about your faith will not otherwise affect them in any major way. All the best

Well there are implications as to how my life will turn out based on my religion or lack thereof. I could only assume that deviance from what is expected will be questioned and passionately dismissed without a chance for discussion. I may as well let them know, because to deny myself a life that I wish to live cannot be what my parents intended. There are cultural limitations as to what is appropriate and what is not. For example, there are no religious limitations; however there is a cultural perception that men take pride in their body hair, and that the trimming of hair in places such as forearms and legs is frowned upon. The fact of the matter is that Islam, as I understand it, encourages cleanliness and hygiene throughout one’s life. I do not know of a single Qur’anic reference which would disallow such practices. But if such matters are an issue when they are well within the decree of Allah, than I can only imagine what may occur when I denounce my faith.

One must think about the future. What will happen if/when I choose to be married? Quite understandably, my parents have a vested interest in my future and I can only assume that they wish for me to find a partner capable of helping me raise a family. It’s not as if I do not want the same, but being a Muslim and of my particular background severely limits my options considering what is expected, and what I find acceptable.

Peace,

This will be a very difficult time for you. It is nearly impossible for a Muslim to comprehend how another Muslim could select Atheism. However, many people of your age do think of it as a choice. Rather than being critical of your choice it is far better if we could understand why you made this decision.

Perhaps you may want to share your thoughts with us before you face your parents. We will not agree with your choice, but it may be better for you to express your views and understand the arguments before facing your parents.

Sure. I hope this post helps.

Once you made a choice, stand to it. Go your way and I hope you will find what you are looking for. But your parents will remain your parents. Respect their religion and their believings. I'm pretty sure, they will also assist in your struggles to find your truth

I would hope so.

wow, you are in a painful situation!
islam is really quite broad, though there are those who make it narrow. personally, i think you can find all you need right where you are and there is no need to leave or change. your understanding of your religion may be different than that of those who surround you, but ultimately each person's relationship with god is different and unique, isn't it?
i would ask you to do yet more soul searching before you take any action. i would certainly not rush to tell your parents. this is a major step and it will change your life and theirs, and probably not for the better.
you are young and probably torn between cultures. this is challenging at best. do not be quick to make any final decisions. it is normal to question and have doubt. turning your back on your culture and tradition/heritage and your family should not be done lightly. i know you have given this much thought, but please give it more. there is not hurry - this is a major issue.
woodrow's suggestion is a good one.

My perception of culture is that it is quite useless for the individual but very useful for society. It is the baggage of the past that forms the mold of what is expected and apparently appropriate for the current generation. If you look within your own culture and begin to question the rituals and practices of the ethnic background which others would identify you by, then more often than not you will find a pervasive effort to conform the individual with social practices that have little significance for the conforming individual but as a society it upholds the moral values and fundamental political systems, for example the family system.

As I understand myself and my society, I began to realize that no one culture is superior to another when those within the social network that have adopted the culture have agreed to live in accordance to the will of the population. Each culture has its own priorities, which arise from the ability to accept fundamental beliefs such as religion. Why must I accept any one particular culture? Why must anyone accept the culture they have been born into? There are merits and demerits of every culture and it is the deep rooted belief that my (or any) particular culture is by default better or even necessary that results in so much grief in the world.

Think you should move out.
As open minded as I like to consider myself being.
I'd be devestated if I were your parents, like I have failed on every level to have you for a son.
Having you there would be a constant reminder. I Think the best thing for you to do is move out or at least not bring this to their attention, if you have some measure of gratitude in the very least to the woman who carried you in her deep. You'll not be a constant painful memory to her..

cheers and Good luck to you!

I can certainly understand that. I can live alone, but what are you suggesting? If I were to move away, that does not solve anything. If I never mention anything, it also does not solve anything.

thinking about this a little more.
since you have not adopted another religion, i really don't see any reason to take action at all.
it is no secret that there are practicing and non-practicing muslims, and also that the level of practice may vary over a person's lifetime.
i see no reason why you must make a final decision at this point and break your parents' hearts.

Being a Muslim is a way of life. The fundamental tenets of faith mean that my life will be lived in accordance with what is allowed my Islam. If I live my life an Islamic way I am lying to myself and to my parents, because I do not have faith. For those who can understand, do you not question your imaan/faith every time you miss a prayer, or commit a sin, and do not reflexively seek repentance? I do not mean that repentance should be a habit, as it is not something that is taken lightly. But the genuine fear of making the most of your life here on earth so that you can reap the benefits in the afterlife must be present, how else do you call yourself a believer? I for one find it hard to believe that 4 billion people in the world call themselves believers, of any faith. The careless attitude towards religion and god reflects, to me, a lack of understanding one’s own faith.

'tis the caprice of youth...
When I was 20, I thought I knew everything, I was flaunting my knowledge of every piece of art in the Frick Collection, to anyone who'd listen, and thought having read "Proust's "Swan's Way"" and the Quand le ciel bas et lourd in french by Baudelaire meant I was on top of the world.. Going to grad school I was asked to leave my dignity at the door and as the years progressed I realized just how much of everything I don't know and lost all forbearance to my former self and any one who remotely represented it!

But I have to admit even worst than twenty year olds to me are teenagers. Just think it should be a rites of passage that they all go to some boot camp and get their behinds collectively whipped some three or four times a day..plus I wish I can make some uniform clothing line of either brown, grey or navy blue as I am so sick of every teenage little girl who looks like a run away h o o k e r and every teenage kid who wears his jeans down to his knees so that everyone can have a look at his man panties. I truly apologize for the digression.. just thought I'd get that off my chest!


peace!

Thank you for the generalization. I fail to see how it actually helped you to make your point. There are quite a few capable young adults that I personally know, and I'm sure many other would know more, that I am certain will make a difference in the world if they wish to do so. I’m sure you will attest to the fact that it is a byproduct of culture that you disagree with and that now, as it as been, the current generation is seen as a deviant group with different morals or beliefs than the preceding culture. Typically, they are perceived as less intelligent or unaware of the world around them.

All of us at some point were the current generation, and if you feel that there were exceptions to your generation then certainly there are exceptions in the current generation.

Perhaps it was the caprice of your personal youth...

am jus sad but i feel for you
If you r scared of ur parents wat about ur lord the creator???Rem ridhallah fi ridhal waalidayn wa sakhatallah....
Look around u..Allah's signs are everywhere..his beautiful creations.
Am a medical student so have dissected d human body....we were certainly created to perfection..every thing is so perfect..
fatabaarakallahu ahsanal khaaliqiin

HOW then can Allah not be present
Alhamdullila, am happy to say i feel HIS presence everywhere coz He is everywhere
I hope u make d ryt decision...am praying for you

innaddiina inda Allah Al-islaam

Allah also says he wont accept any religion yawmul qiyama except islaam

Am rily praying for you...

i myt have sounded harsh but its how i feel

No worries, as for the fear of my parents, it's not true. I do not fear the reaction itself but the fact that over the next twenty years our relationship will have been affected. When my parents grow old I would like to support them, I do not want this matter to be an issue. I do not want to be seen as having abandoned my parents.

As for the signs, “Isn’t it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?”, said Douglas Adams (1952-2001).

Believe me there are so many of us that have gone through this phase. But alhumdulillah Allah guides whom he wills and thus don't let it go comepletly. I coudn't think of myself of a muslim as well, I hated it when my parents whould ask me to pray, as I thought I would only be putting up an act and felt nothing inside. No matter how mush I tried to reason with myself I just couldn't think any religion exited. (astaghfirullah) And I regret all thouse moments...

But then finally at the age 21 after all this time when I thought I may never have emaan like my parents and family, did Allah guide me. Look around once again brother, eveything really is perfect as the quran states. The earth was not created out of mere coincidence, even if so, soo many coincidences at the same time!! Go on tabligh, give yourself some time and space, give the bothers there a chance to explain things to you, feel the atmosphere ther, its truly amazing. Also, did you try reading the quran with it's translations?? Read them over and over. Look around the forum there are so many converts, they inspire me, find out why they converted.

Again, please don't let it go completey, don't annouce anything yet. Insha'allah I pray, with time and some more soul searching you find your emaan.

I don't exactly know what you are calling coincidences, but I can assure you this is not a phase. It was never the case that I disliked my religion, it just so happens that I decided to look deeper. I did not cringe at the thought of prayer, I did not think twice about charitable acts, or anything else that needed to be done.
I can tell you why many people convert, it is a need for emotional and spiritual fulfillment that they themselves cannot define. For one reason or another, the average person automatically turns towards religion for an answer mainly because religious groups tend to portray that they have one.

I've tried it with local imams, numerous door to door representatives of a various "Christian" sects, or even at the mall where they willingly hand out free copies of a holy book in which there are all the answers and it only takes 30 seconds to hear their sales pitch but after five minutes of my questioning they're unable to answer my questions. I have to wonder why someone cannot answer the fundamental questions as to why I must choose a religion and in particular theirs.

You see I could have been raised to follow any one of the world's religions, it could have been a sect of Christianity, or Buddhism, or Hinduism, or I may have been born Jewish, Sikh, Taoist, or anything else had I been born under a different time or situation. In fact it is only roughly 8-10 generations ago that my ancestors converted to Islam in India. I wonder how their Hindu family and friends may have reacted to the news. I contend that had I been born 10 generation ago I would have been a Hindu and could rightfully so practice Hinduism with no one to say that I am wrong unless it was a missionary from another religion. If my ancestors had the right to choose their religion despite their upbringing then who is to say that I do not have that same right when it very well may be that I in fact understand the religion to a greater extent.

I am not trying to say that I am granted the right to choose by precedence, but that I can choose because no one has the ability to take away that choice. To attribute my will to change to my age is an insult. I do not blame you are anyone else for holding that opinion because many do not realize that age has no bearing on wisdom. What is perceived as wisdom is the collection of experiences that one may acquire through his or her life, from which he/she has developed a dualistic sense of right and wrong. I contend that it is entirely irrational to presume wisdom can only be acquired through experience and that it is the ability to use the knowledge that is at your disposal that is an indication of wisdom. I do not mean to be harsh to anyone in particular, but what is it to say that you have spent your entire life learning from your mistakes and collectively calling that life experience wisdom? What if you were fully capable of making the right decisions? What if you have the promethean instinct to ask the questions before the consequences of the answers made themselves apparent? Is it not wisdom?

Yes, as a matter of fact I own 3 separate printed copies of English translations of the Qur’an. The names of the translators may be familiar to you, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall (ISBN 1879402513), and N.J. Dawood (ISBN 0140449205). I have yet to find a printed copy by M.H. Shakir, as I find he is another frequently quoted translator. Needless to say there are multitudes to resources online.






This post has become particularly long. As I have replied to many, if not all, of the posters there may be many ideas presented. Please point out any inconsistencies or questions which may arise from my responses.

Thank you all for the responses, and thank you to all the well-wishers.

[جوري]

I can certainly understand that. I can live alone, but what are you suggesting? If I were to move away, that does not solve anything. If I never mention anything, it also does not solve anything.

I am not suggesting anything..you have given very abbreviated poll questionnaire and I picked one empathising only with your family not your person!...
I didn't know you were looking for a resolution on a forum?
I don't think anyone can offer you beyond the question of your polls..certainly no one knows you or your family well enough to assess the situation for you. I don't know if your family are city folk or rustic, sensitive or boisterous, educated or bumpkinly...my best bet was to put myself in your mother's situation and assimilate as much as possible... I can only come up with..I don't want to know of your new life style..or I would want to disown you and have no permanent reminder of what you have become...

Thank you for the generalization.

with great pleasure!

I fail to see how it actually helped you to make your point.

It wasn't directed at you so as far as you are concerned there is none!

There are quite a few capable young adults that I personally know,

that is a great testament?

and I'm sure many other would know more, that I am certain will make a difference in the world if they wish to do so.

Good for them and you!

I’m sure you will attest to the fact that it is a byproduct of culture that you disagree with and that now, as it as been, the current generation is seen as a deviant group with different morals or beliefs than the preceding culture.

I am not of a different generation, perhaps a few yrs older..so I am not sure where the 'preceding' or 'proceeding' falls here as far as this topic is concerned? Furthremore, I don't believe that decency, propriety, respectability and morality are subject to changing tides. They are the basics, the foundation.. has nothing to do with generation to generation, free thought or progression. You either are or you aren't...there is no big mystery here that needs a new classification system!

Typically, they are perceived as less intelligent or unaware of the world around them.

A great deal are of herd mentality..it is very difficult to think outside the box.. life only gives you seven themes anyhow and slight variations but at the end it all falls within the confines of the human condition... Haven't seen anything radical and unearthly yet... certainly the true savants of this world are numbered!

All of us at some point were the current generation, and if you feel that there were exceptions to your generation then certainly there are exceptions in the current generation.

Again, I am not sure what you mean by that?

Perhaps it was the caprice of your personal youth...

good luck

I am still youthful thank you =).. I was simply not the capricious type but I have certainly shared that with peers with whom I chose to associate... and I again I fail to understand your point?..we are all a part of the bell curve.. whether you fall within the standard distribution or a +/- of the square root of the variance, you'll still have no where to go but in...You may certainly think yourself unusual and impressive and you are certainly so entitled, From the most liberal to the most conservative and everything therein in between, no one has been so 'capable' where they were classifed anything beyond gifted or so developmentally challenged that they couldn't live in a controlled setting and acquire some basic skills to foster self-esteem. Complete knowledge and perfection beyond these two extremes will have to come with death!... However, this fails to explain several 'mysteries' about you.

1- why do you choose to be an atheist on an Islamic forum when there are many of the Dawkin Ali sina type to foster you and where you can be at ease with like minds. I can understand an atheist who has no knowledge of Islam wanting to come here learn of us, you on the other hand have learned and rejected..I'd personally take that new found freedom and run with it not bring it back home...
2-What is it you are hoping to gain from members here?
3-What is it you want to bring to the table?
4-Faith or lack thereof, is a matter of the heart, and certainly your heart wasn't fashioned for worship, there isn't much anyone can do about that or to help that...Many people suffer from ailments that are incurable.. it doesn't make them bad, it doesn't make people who are unable to help them bad.. they simply have to know their limitations and part ways and find some way to palliate and become resolute with their new condition!

Good luck to you!


cheers!

[snakelegs]

My perception of culture is that it is quite useless for the individual but very useful for society. It is the baggage of the past that forms the mold of what is expected and apparently appropriate for the current generation. If you look within your own culture and begin to question the rituals and practices of the ethnic background which others would identify you by, then more often than not you will find a pervasive effort to conform the individual with social practices that have little significance for the conforming individual but as a society it upholds the moral values and fundamental political systems, for example the family system.

As I understand myself and my society, I began to realize that no one culture is superior to another when those within the social network that have adopted the culture have agreed to live in accordance to the will of the population. Each culture has its own priorities, which arise from the ability to accept fundamental beliefs such as religion. Why must I accept any one particular culture? Why must anyone accept the culture they have been born into? There are merits and demerits of every culture and it is the deep rooted belief that my (or any) particular culture is by default better or even necessary that results in so much grief in the world.

personally, i cannot disagree with anything you have written above.

Being a Muslim is a way of life. The fundamental tenets of faith mean that my life will be lived in accordance with what is allowed my Islam. If I live my life an Islamic way I am lying to myself and to my parents, because I do not have faith. For those who can understand, do you not question your imaan/faith every time you miss a prayer, or commit a sin, and do not reflexively seek repentance? I do not mean that repentance should be a habit, as it is not something that is taken lightly. But the genuine fear of making the most of your life here on earth so that you can reap the benefits in the afterlife must be present, how else do you call yourself a believer? I for one find it hard to believe that 4 billion people in the world call themselves believers, of any faith. The careless attitude towards religion and god reflects, to me, a lack of understanding one’s own faith

i understand what you're saying. and thinking about this, i guess you really don't have any alternative. you have to follow your heart and it would be wrong to live a lie. i don't think god likes hypocrites.
as for your parents, what would be considered worse in the eyes of traditional muslims:
a son who is a sinner
or
a son who is a declared atheist (apostate)?
i don't know the answer, but i think this is what it would hinge on.
atheist is a lack of belief. it isn't necessarily an identity in itself.
if you no longer wish to live as a muslim then obviously, you have to move out.
but i'm still not sure if you have to make any announcements - it will become obvious soon enough that you are not practicing. there is no way you can spare them grief, but you have to be true to yourself.
but i'm not sure you need to shut the door/make a formal announcement.

[tetsujin]

I am not suggesting anything..you have given very abbreviated poll questionnaire and I picked one empathising only with your family not your person!...
I didn't know you were looking for a resolution on a forum?
I don't think anyone can offer you beyond the question of your polls..certainly no one knows you or your family well enough to assess the situation for you. I don't know if your family are city folk or rustic, sensitive or boisterous, educated or bumpkinly...my best bet was to put myself in your mother's situation and assimilate as much as possible... I can only come up with..I don't want to know of your new life style..or I would want to disown you and have no permanent reminder of what you have become...

I apologize; it’s entirely my fault to expect a resolution. I do see your point about moving out.

I am not of a different generation, perhaps a few yrs older..so I am not sure where the 'preceding' or 'proceeding' falls here as far as this topic is concerned? Furthremore, I don't believe that decency, propriety, respectability and morality are subject to changing tides. They are the basics, the foundation.. has nothing to do with generation to generation, free thought or progression. You either are or you aren't...there is no big mystery here that needs a new classification system!

I didn’t mean to imply that you yourself are of a different generation. :) I don’t know of a culture that has not changed over time and with it kept the same definition of decency, propriety, respectability and morality. Are you saying that the fundamental virtues recognized by society have not changed, or that there is a definition of virtue lies outside the constructs of human nature and the will of the population?

It’s hard to grasp such a definition of virtue, in Aristotelian terms there could be a good for which all other goods exist, but those good/virtues (because of their ends) are simply means to an end, as this life is simply a means to an end. Whether you believe that end is accompanied by an afterlife or not does not make a difference. Who is to say that what is seen as a virtue today will not be as such tomorrow? In fact it is necessary for the existence of ambiguity of the morality of our actions. If everything was cut and clear, and we could define each deed along a scale of morality, how would we account for any evil in this world? The epicurean paradox of reconciling God and evil is thus inescapable. If you allow for my deeds which are prima facie considered a vice, or evil, to result in a good. How can anyone judge my deed as a vice/evil?

A great deal are of herd mentality..it is very difficult to think outside the box.. life only gives you seven themes anyhow and slight variations but at the end it all falls within the confines of the human condition... Haven't seen anything radical and unearthly yet... certainly the true savants of this world are numbered!

I shall leave that matter alone. The ideas of normative institutionalism have been around since the Greeks found a love for philosophy. Along with the age of information, the definition of radical seems to have changed, as what was once “reality” is now fabricated, and a new found love for fabricated realities and societies has begun to dominate. The true savants today are those that have adapted quickly and realized that money can be made, because indeed there is a great deal of herd mentality and it can be used to great effect. No longer are people born great, or have greatness thrust upon them, today greatness must be achieved.

I am still youthful thank you =).. I was simply not the capricious type but I have certainly shared that with peers with whom I chose to associate... and I again I fail to understand your point?..we are all a part of the bell curve.. whether you fall within the standard distribution or a +/- of the square root of the variance, you'll still have no where to go but in...You may certainly think yourself unusual and impressive and you are certainly so entitled, From the most liberal to the most conservative and everything therein in between, no one has been so 'capable' where they were classifed anything beyond gifted or so developmentally challenged that they couldn't live in a controlled setting and acquire some basic skills to foster self-esteem. Complete knowledge and perfection beyond these two extremes will have to come with death!... However, this fails to explain several 'mysteries' about you.

No, nothing so special as to warrant any special attention, every human born would fall on the bell curve regardless of his/her nature.

1- why do you choose to be an atheist on an Islamic forum when there are many of the Dawkin Ali sina type to foster you and where you can be at ease with like minds. I can understand an atheist who has no knowledge of Islam wanting to come here learn of us, you on the other hand have learned and rejected..I'd personally take that new found freedom and run with it not bring it back home...

I do not wish to be at ease. To share with you the personal pain, devastation, depression that accompanied my self discovery would only indicate that I am a reluctant atheist. I suppose at some level I still want to believe. At some level I’m still looking for the answer. I remember the precise moment (to the day and time) I accepted my disposition. Maybe I’m looking for affirmation, maybe I’m trying to find my way back, I don’t know.

I suppose I’m here because I love debates. I love finding out I’m wrong, because it means I have learned something. That feeling is in my opinion the best in the world. When your eyes open to a new possibility, and a new understanding, it feels as if Atlas himself has taken the weight of the world off your shoulders.

I have contemplated sending a letter to Richard Dawkins, as he does have an Out campaign. As intelligent as he is, I just didn’t want the bias of another atheist quite yet.
However, I did take time to send letters to nearly a dozen respectable representatives of the ummah. Yes, it’s a biased source but I imagine they may be a bit more sympathetic, no offense Mr. Dawkins. So far, I have not received a response. In fact if you visit the forum on islamonline.net you’ll find the same thread (by title and original post), with less activity.

2-What is it you are hoping to gain from members here?

Everything

3-What is it you want to bring to the table?

Honesty

4-Faith or lack thereof, is a matter of the heart, and certainly your heart wasn't fashioned for worship, there isn't much anyone can do about that or to help that...Many people suffer from ailments that are incurable.. it doesn't make them bad, it doesn't make people who are unable to help them bad.. they simply have to know their limitations and part ways and find some way to palliate and become resolute with their new condition!

What is the heart?
A steely resolve is but one step away from an open mind. A mind, like a parachute, only functions when open.

i understand what you're saying. and thinking about this, i guess you really don't have any alternative. you have to follow your heart and it would be wrong to live a lie. i don't think god likes hypocrites.
as for your parents, what would be considered worse in the eyes of traditional muslims:
a son who is a sinner
or
a son who is a declared atheist (apostate)?
i don't know the answer, but i think this is what it would hinge on.
atheist is a lack of belief. it isn't necessarily an identity in itself.
if you no longer wish to live as a muslim then obviously, you have to move out.
but i'm still not sure if you have to make any announcements - it will become obvious soon enough that you are not practicing. there is no way you can spare them grief, but you have to be true to yourself.
but i'm not sure you need to shut the door/make a formal announcement.

Thank you. I do have time to think it over, but at this point it just seems that everything hangs in the balance. Time is of the utmost importance, one way or the other.


If anyone has any questions, feel free to ask.

[snakelegs]

I do not wish to be at ease. To share with you the personal pain, devastation, depression that accompanied my self discovery would only indicate that I am a reluctant atheist. I suppose at some level I still want to believe. At some level I’m still looking for the answer. I remember the precise moment (to the day and time) I accepted my disposition. Maybe I’m looking for affirmation, maybe I’m trying to find my way back, I don’t know.

you must follow your conscience, but again, i would advise against shutting any doors re: your parents (formally declaring your atheism to them). and what you said above confirms my opinion.

[جوري]

I apologize; it’s entirely my fault to expect a resolution. I do see your point about moving out.

I don't believe a person with your potentialities should hand his fate to complete strangers, no matter how well meaning.. personally speaking, I never consult unless I am certain my decision will not be in the best interest.. but I don't make it a habit...it isn't a good way to live ones life... think, reflect, deliberate.. then make the best decision having studied well the circumstance!

I didn’t mean to imply that you yourself are of a different generation. :) I don’t know of a culture that has not changed over time and with it kept the same definition of decency, propriety, respectability and morality. Are you saying that the fundamental virtues recognized by society have not changed, or that there is a definition of virtue lies outside the constructs of human nature and the will of the population?

I mean the seven known human conditions and their cures have already been established.. 'change' to me is beating clothes on the rocks one generation and now using a washing machine...riding in a horse and buggy or using a motor car. The fundamentals don't change, perhaps the approach to a solution differs...At some point people treated syphilis using arsenic or infecting the individual with the equally deadly malaria on the aco**** spirochetes can't live at body temperature above 100 degrees...now they use PCN.. that is what change is, though the condition itself and the predicted bodily response has always been the same...the approach to treatment has changed, and is much more effective.

It’s hard to grasp such a definition of virtue, in Aristotelian terms there could be a good for which all other goods exist, but those good/virtues (because of their ends) are simply means to an end, as this life is simply a means to an end.

I don't make a habit of following other people's schools of thoughts, I have gained not much from my philosophy courses short of credit toward graduation to which I was grateful.. wise persons who live their lives with reason and equanimity,makes for a good read and some class credit...certainly not the measure by which I live my life.. every human is quite capable of making up new philosophies.. with minor derviations on principles already established and start a new school of thought and find their followers.. it is their prerogative, but it doesn't concern me.

Whether you believe that end is accompanied by an afterlife or not does not make a difference.

I disagree..it makes all the difference in the world!

Who is to say that what is seen as a virtue today will not be as such tomorrow?

Divine virtue hasn't changed for centuries..

In fact it is necessary for the existence of ambiguity of the morality of our actions. If everything was cut and clear, and we could define each deed along a scale of morality, how would we account for any evil in this world?

Evil is part of our free will. It is a choice!
Volume 3, Book 34, Number 267:
Narrated An-Nu'man bin Bashir:

• The Prophet (SAS) said "Both legal and illegal things are obvious, and in between them are (suspicious) doubtful matters. So who-ever forsakes those doubtful things lest he may commit a sin, will definitely avoid what is clearly illegal; and who-ever indulges in these (suspicious) doubtful things bravely, is likely to commit what is clearly illegal. Sins are Allah's Hima (i.e. private pasture) and whoever pastures (his sheep) near it, is likely to get in it at any moment."

The epicurean paradox of reconciling God and evil is thus inescapable. If you allow for my deeds which are prima facie considered a vice, or evil, to result in a good. How can anyone judge my deed as a vice/evil?

The end doesn't justify the means... speaking of every day things of course unless we are speaking of surgery? to which I say the patient consents to 'evil horrible things ' for the sake of a cure!

I shall leave that matter alone. The ideas of normative institutionalism have been around since the Greeks found a love for philosophy. Along with the age of information, the definition of radical seems to have changed, as what was once “reality” is now fabricated, and a new found love for fabricated realities and societies has begun to dominate.

I can only conclude from the above, that you wanted to take me on a tour of the labyrinths of your mind...things are rather clear from where I am standing..thus not only can I not relate to what you are saying... I really can't see where it fits in the scheme of things and for the purpose of our discussion?

The true savants today are those that have adapted quickly and realized that money can be made,

I pity the fool who gained all worldy riches but lost his reason, and his soul!...

because indeed there is a great deal of herd mentality and it can be used to great effect. No longer are people born great, or have greatness thrust upon them, today greatness must be achieved.

Greatness is to Allah alone and so is all success. You'll forgive my observation, but people were pioneers back then, I don't know many who were born great, rather spent a life time in pursuit of attaining what is great. Though I'd like to give the people who have set the foundation more credit.. after all, they have thought it first, even if we took it and polished it a bit more!

No, nothing so special as to warrant any special attention, every human born would fall on the bell curve regardless of his/her nature.

I am glad we found common grounds then!

I do not wish to be at ease. To share with you the personal pain, devastation, depression that accompanied my self discovery would only indicate that I am a reluctant atheist.

Where there is doubt, there is hope and room for self improvement.. but that goes for theists and atheists alike...life is a struggle!

I suppose at some level I still want to believe. At some level I’m still looking for the answer. I remember the precise moment (to the day and time) I accepted my disposition. Maybe I’m looking for affirmation, maybe I’m trying to find my way back, I don’t know.

I am trying my earnest to explain to you... that there is nothing anyone can do where the heart is concerned.. it is as if you were in love with pooja and I insisted that you must love lorraine.. and I went about it listing the virtues and accolades of one while simultaneously hurling mockery and derision at the other...the heart wants what it wants. I didn't pray until I was in my twenties and after having gained my bachelors and going on for my doctorate.. I faked praying for years it was easy.. I didn't give heed to warning or care for evidence or anything there is in between. The day I put my forehead on that rug, was a day when I could have gone out clubbing, smoking and doing God knows what.. I was living in the dorms at that stage, certainly if there was a time for me to enjoy my new found freedoms that would have been the day. I don't know maybe it is my own personal experience? having denied God or having found him was strictly on my own cognizance. No one gave me a push in one direction or another...and I suspect the same for any sane human being who is in control of his or her free will!

I suppose I’m here because I love debates. I love finding out I’m wrong, because it means I have learned something. That feeling is in my opinion the best in the world. When your eyes open to a new possibility, and a new understanding, it feels as if Atlas himself has taken the weight of the world off your shoulders.

Nah Atlas is still holding the world on his shoulders in mid town Manhattan, he isn't to let it go any time soon :okay:

I have contemplated sending a letter to Richard Dawkins, as he does have an Out campaign. As intelligent as he is, I just didn’t want the bias of another atheist quite yet.

Perhaps one day soon you'll understand what I mean by just another man's perspective no matter how well spoken?

However, I did take time to send letters to nearly a dozen respectable representatives of the ummah. Yes, it’s a biased source but I imagine they may be a bit more sympathetic, no offense Mr. Dawkins. So far, I have not received a response. In fact if you visit the forum on islamonline.net you’ll find the same thread (by title and original post), with less activity.

If you really want I can arrange for you a correspondence with an Islamic scholar and professor in philosophy..however, he might not get back to you with the speed you desire, but he does always respectfully replies!

Everything

Do you feel you are getting everything? In my professional opinion, I feel as if doubt isn't where your problem ends..but might be laced with many other issues... one of them bordering on pessimism, a sense of inadequacy and a despondent lack of activity. But of course I don't know you well enough to assert that with any authority. I feel as if you are a solitary hermit..looking for guidance, direction and approval...for the physiological and chemical aspect of this you might need meds.. but for the human aspect, YOU"LL need to tough it.. you have to hang tough if you are going to make it through this on one side of the fence or the other!

Honesty

Fair enough

What is the heart?

that old ticker that beats for you with indefatigable energy.. when a specialized bit of itself that controls the heartbeat fails, another takes over.. sinoatrial node, then atrioventricular then purkinje fibers... if the ole ticker doesn't give up, why do we? Stange thing indeed.. every piece of us is designed with such ingenuity.. yet here we are, so weak and ready to give up?

A steely resolve is but one step away from an open mind. A mind, like a parachute, only functions when open.

Some minds are paralyzed with fear and have so many holes, that they never take flight all together...

Thank you. I do have time to think it over, but at this point it just seems that everything hangs in the balance. Time is of the utmost importance, one way or the other.

If there is no God.. I don't see how time should matter?... as God is time

• Allah (swt ), says:
  
• " And they say: "There is nothing but our life in this world: We die and we live and nothing destroys us except time." And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture" (Qur'an 45:24)

• It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra ) that the Prophet (saas ) said: "Allah (swt ), Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." 2 In another narration, He (saas ) says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah (swt )."

Thus I say.. why should an atheist care for time? when it is an attribute of Allah SWT.. and in Allah he/she doesn't believe... seems self-defeating?



good luck

cheers!

[tetsujin]

I simply wanted to know if I'm seeing things from a single perspective. You've actually helped me realize something I had not considered. That's not to say I'll do what you've said, but at least I understand another perspective.

I don't make a habit of following other people's schools of thoughts, I have gained not much from my philosophy courses short of credit toward graduation to which I was grateful.. wise persons who live their lives with reason and equanimity,makes for a good read and some class credit...certainly not the measure by which I live my life.. every human is quite capable of making up new philosophies.. with minor derviations on principles already established and start a new school of thought and find their followers.. it is their prerogative, but it doesn't concern me.

I certainly hope you didn't mean to say you live your live without reason and equanimity.
I've found that a part of developing your own philosophy of life is to question yourself. Submit yourself to the most rigorous tests and seek to understand how and why you differ from others in your way of life.

"Every one of us, unconsciously, works out a personal philosophy of life, by which we are guided, inspired, and corrected, as time goes on. It is this philosophy by which we measure out our days, and by which we advertise to all about us the man, or woman, that we are. . . . It takes but a brief time to scent the life philosophy of anyone. It is defined in the conversation, in the look of the eye, and in the general mien of the person. It has no hiding place. It's like the perfume of the flower — unseen, but known almost instantly. It is the possession of the successful, and the happy. And it can be greatly embellished by the absorption of ideas and experiences of the useful of this earth." ~ George Matthew Adams


Free will is no more desirable than determinism, we are disgusted by the idea that we may not be in control of our lives. Unfortunately, the opposite of the causal laws of nature is chance, and chance occurances hardly constitute free will. Once examined, there is nothing particularly attractive about free will.

I can only conclude from the above, that you wanted to take me on a tour of the labyrinths of your mind...things are rather clear from where I am standing..thus not only can I not relate to what you are saying... I really can't see where it fits in the scheme of things and for the purpose of our discussion?

Lol, not at all. A tour of my mind would be a fruitless endeavour. You would have nothing to gain for all practical intents and purposes. I was simply commenting on the abilities of the "savants" of today.

I pity the fool who gained all worldy riches but lost his reason, and his soul!...

I guess I'm halfway there. :)

Greatness is to Allah alone and so is all success. You'll forgive my observation, but people were pioneers back then, I don't know many who were born great, rather spent a life time in pursuit of attaining what is great. Though I'd like to give the people who have set the foundation more credit.. after all, they have thought it first, even if we took it and polished it a bit more!

There are still pioneers in the world. Brilliant men and women around the world have realized that in order to make a difference, a real difference, they must have the power to create change. That power can come from an ability to convince people to help you or having the money or knowledge to start the process yourself. Mother Teresa was a wonderful person, but she'll never have helped as many people as Bill Gates. As cold and heartless as that sounds, Bill Gates will have done more for the world because he has acquired the power/money through his own abilities.

Take a quick look at http://www.ted.com, and you will find many people who could be called pioneers today.

Where there is doubt, there is hope and room for self improvement.. but that goes for theists and atheists alike...life is a struggle!

I completely agree, I wouldn't trust any theist or atheist who doesn't doubt him/herself once in a while.

I am trying my earnest to explain to you... that there is nothing anyone can do where the heart is concerned.. it is as if you were in love with pooja and I insisted that you must love lorraine.. and I went about it listing the virtues and accolades of one while simultaneously hurling mockery and derision at the other...the heart wants what it wants. I didn't pray until I was in my twenties and after having gained my bachelors and going on for my doctorate.. I faked praying for years it was easy.. I didn't give heed to warning or care for evidence or anything there is in between. The day I put my forehead on that rug, was a day when I could have gone out clubbing, smoking and doing God knows what.. I was living in the dorms at that stage, certainly if there was a time for me to enjoy my new found freedoms that would have been the day. I don't know maybe it is my own personal experience? having denied God or having found him was strictly on my own cognizance. No one gave me a push in one direction or another...and I suspect the same for any sane human being who is in control of his or her free will!

How can you be in control of your free will? You must explain the concept to me.

That old ticker that beats for you with indefatigable energy.. when a specialized bit of itself that controls the heartbeat fails, another takes over.. sinoatrial node, then atrioventricular then purkinje fibers... if the ole ticker doesn't give up, why do we? Stange thing indeed.. every piece of us is designed with such ingenuity.. yet here we are, so weak and ready to give up?

Not at all, giving up would be to shy away from any challenges, to confine myself to the belief that I am right. To seek only the company of those who could nurture me and my self-inflicted wounds.
I was actually referring to the metaphysical heart, the metaphorical heart, the emotional heart, or any heart that is not physiologically necessary for survival.

Some minds are paralyzed with fear and have so many holes, that they never take flight all together...

okay....

If there is no God.. I don't see how time should matter?... as God is time

What?

Thus I say.. why should an atheist care for time? when it is an attribute of Allah SWT.. and in Allah he/she doesn't believe... seems self-defeating?

I thought god transcended time. I don't exactly understand the idea that God is time. God could define time. God could stop time. God could create time.

It's an interesting thought, can an increase in entropy be attributed to god as well?

Yes, if time is an attribute of god and I do not believe in god, then I would not believe in time. It is logically true if one assumes the premise. I do not.

I do believe that I have a short period of time on earth, and that I wish to make the most of it just like everyone else (regardless of faith).

[جوري]

I simply wanted to know if I'm seeing things from a single perspective. You've actually helped me realize something I had not considered. That's not to say I'll do what you've said, but at least I understand another perspective.

I have no expectation that anyone follows my recipe..what works for me might not work for my own sister.. let alone you faysal!

I certainly hope you didn't mean to say you live your live without reason and equanimity.

That is not what I meant..What I mean is very self-explanatory.. I take other people's schools of thought with a grain of salt and subject them to scrutiny.

I've found that a part of developing your own philosophy of life is to question yourself. Submit yourself to the most rigorous tests and seek to understand how and why you differ from others in your way of life

.
Agreed..I don't need a dead phislopher to define that for me however, in more eloquent terms..

Free will is no more desirable than determinism, we are disgusted by the idea that we may not be in control of our lives. Unfortunately, the opposite of the causal laws of nature is chance, and chance occurances hardly constitute free will. Once examined, there is nothing particularly attractive about free will.

you started that well by stating two antonyms and then lost me..am I to guess that both are unattractive to you? free will and denying the possibility of free will?

Lol, not at all. A tour of my mind would be a fruitless endeavour. You would have nothing to gain for all practical intents and purposes. I was simply commenting on the abilities of the "savants" of today.

I agree with that..I really do hate detours... hence I invested in a tomtom :p

I guess I'm halfway there. :)

is that a good thing?

There are still pioneers in the world. Brilliant men and women around the world have realized that in order to make a difference, a real difference, they must have the power to create change. That power can come from an ability to convince people to help you or having the money or knowledge to start the process yourself. Mother Teresa was a wonderful person, but she'll never have helped as many people as Bill Gates. As cold and heartless as that sounds, Bill Gates will have done more for the world because he has acquired the power/money through his own abilities.

Bill gates has Asperger's syndrome.. I don't necessairly think that makes him cold and heartless or even necessitates an assimilation between him and Teresa.. each brought something different to the world.. that is what we are all here for so we can offer something different and not be clones of each other...

I completely agree, I wouldn't trust any theist or atheist who doesn't doubt him/herself once in a while.

wonderful

How can you be in control of your free will? You must explain the concept to me.

I am not sure what you want explained..it is pretty self-explanatory.. any further I'll have to delve into theology that you don't agree with or even believe in...

Not at all, giving up would be to shy away from any challenges, to confine myself to the belief that I am right. To seek only the company of those who could nurture me and my self-inflicted wounds.

I don't think there is a challenge in that.... there is however things that any human seeks... to find comfort, solacement, a champion?!

I was actually referring to the metaphysical heart, the metaphorical heart, the emotional heart, or any heart that is not physiologically necessary for survival.

I believe the metaphysical heart and the physiological one are on equal grounds for survival... I have quite a few research articles on death ensuing from what can be absuredly deemed a 'broken heart' I do have a difficult time conciliating the latter with atheism which seems to me very sterile and dealing only with the material... I am not sure what your definitions are of the metphysical or where you draw your info from?

I thought god transcended time. I don't exactly understand the idea that God is time. God could define time. God could stop time. God could create time.

God is time as he so describes himself in the hadiths I provided plus the other 99 attributes he ascribes to himself in his names... for instance when we say God is 'Ar-rahman' ( the merciful) it doesn't mean that is all he is he is also the other 98 raheem, ra'oof , Jabar etc etc etc.. but it is a part of what he is and an attribute along with the others...

It's an interesting thought, can an increase in entropy be attributed to god as well?

I don't know.. there is only so much the mind can conceive no matter how educated or non educated for that matter...

Yes, if time is an attribute of god and I do not believe in god, then I would not believe in time. It is logically true if one assumes the premise. I do not.

Some basic foundations in religion would have to be established and agreed upon in order for us to have this conversation.. it is a very ancillary topic and not the main objective...

I do believe that I have a short period of time on earth, and that I wish to make the most of it just like everyone else (regardless of faith).

That is another thing I don't understand.. technically none of us is guranteed another second.. My brother's neighbor in Long Island just died last tuesday.. a man full of youth anf vigor, works out, jogs every morning, just adopted another chinese girl a few months ago.. you'd think he'd have anoter 50 years under his belt, walks his two cuties to the bus stop every morining and says hello to everyone, has an amazing cheerful disposition... Yet and I kid you not, he died choking on a chicken bone... a completely senseless and preventable death, yet it was his time to go.. I know I digress but I just can't reconcile why anyone who knows of the fragility of life would want to spend it on a forum in a meaningless exchange such as this when he should be eating life up?


Anyhow, I apologize if I confabulated here, I have taken a couple of allergy pills and am incredibly drowsy...hopeully this will make sense when in the morning as it seems to do now ^o)


cheers!

[Jayda]

To whom it may concern,

My name is Faysal, I am young man of nearly 21 years. I am seeking assistance in order to better understand the world around me, and have written this because you may be qualified to help me.

I born in a family of Muslims in Pakistan, and have spent a great amount of time following traditions and learning about my background. Shortly after my birth, my family moved to Saudi Arabia and a few years later to the United States of America where I spent most of my childhood. Despite living in a secular society, I was raised as a traditional Muslim boy and even began fasting and praying at an early age. I learned how to read Arabic in order to recite the Qur’an and intermittently studied Islamic teachings after school and on the weekends if such services were available locally.

Over the past 10 years I have spent a vast amount of time studying the human society and the subsequent interactions, as well as the effects of personal beliefs on those relationships in a secular society. My struggles began when I was nearly 13 years of age and began to ask questions that were relevant to my way of life. The answers to these questions did not come easily; I've spent many nights awake, many trips to libraries, and a great deal of time in quiet contemplation that was afforded to me by a lack of siblings and hardworking parents. I began to join debates and public lectures as well as observe the people around me. Through all of my findings I can tell you that life itself became quite a depressing state of affairs. Despite all of this, I tried to prolong my judgments until I felt that my conclusion was entirely inescapable. After 6 years, and many grey hairs I have come to the conclusion that I am not Muslim, that I never was, and despite my efforts as a child I did not understand myself and religion the way it was meant to be understood.

I have no qualms about my past. I feel no animosity towards my parents, or family, or towards to efforts of good Muslims who are trying to make this world a better place by following the teachings of the prophet and applying themselves.

I find that I can only define myself as an atheist. I have realized that the only logical position, the only thing that can be determined with everything that can be learned is that a God does not exist. I seek your assistance for one of two reasons. First, I have reason to believe that my parents will be quite upset to learn this fact and therefore I need to let them know in a manner in which I can continue my relationship with them as much as possible. Secondly, what am I to do if in the extreme case that this news results in my exile from the family or that this is of no issue and that I lose nothing other than parents who may have been happier if I lived my life in deceit? My interests lie in supporting my parents as they grow older as they supported me as a child both emotionally as well as financially.

Please be advised that I may share your response with friends, family, and others who may wish to help me, or otherwise learn what I have learned, in the future.


Sincerely,

Faysal

hola Faysal,

the way you speak clearly shows you are an intelligent and conscientious person... in my opinion you should be open to the idea that your identity, especially your religious identity, and your knowledge of the world is subject to a great deal of change and will continue to be so in the future.

concerning your parents, you must always honor and take care of them. however there comes a time where you make your own decisions and become your own person, and perhaps this time has come for you. this does not mean you stop listening to their input and advice... as you have done a lot of reading and learning you know that an author's words are worth greater consideration depending upon their merits and experience. your parents have much more experience with life than you do and while you might look down at them for lacking the intellect or the desire to seek answers outside the confines of their culture that you possess, they still have important lessons to share with you and you must consider what they say.

if they choose to sever their relationship with you... that is their decision and you cannot control it, but it does not mean you have to give up on them in turn.

instead of saying to them that you are an atheist and you know such and such things... it would be better to tell them you have questions, challenges and differences in what you know and have learned. talk to them about these things and keep an open mind, ask for advice and input instead of demanding they accept everything you say as the final word. and perhaps you can learn from this experience too

que Dios te bendiga

[tetsujin]

you started that well by stating two antonyms and then lost me..am I to guess that both are unattractive to you? free will and denying the possibility of free will?

I suppose I could give you my definition and you can tell me if yours is any different.

Free will: The concept that one has an ability to choose his or her own actions which are unconstrained by external or internal influences. In essence, the idea that there is a "causal gap" and a possibility that for every cause, there is more than one event with chance of occurring. This bestows a "choice" upon you and me, and an ability to intervene in the "laws" of nature to bring about a effect that may or may not be desirable. The effect itself is not the concern; it is the existence of a causal gap.

Determinism: the concept that for any event there is an antecedent state of nature, which through the laws of nature, could only result in the occurrence of that event. In essence, it is the idea that a series of causes and effects rule the continuum of time and each state of nature. Chance does not play a role, as the system itself has only one possible state at any given point in time.

Free will cannot take into account any ideals, philosophies, religions, or other external factors which limit your choices. If you choose to create a stone idol, and within a moment realize that your initial intentions conflict with your religion and out of that realization you chose to not create a stone idol, then you do not have free will. There is an external factor which influences your choices.

Free will cannot take into account pain or pleasure, or their varying degrees found in hunger or any of the senses. If you choose to swim across the Amazon River, and due pain or hunger decide to turn back or quit, then you do not have free will. There is an internal factor which influences your choices.

Free will creates chance occurrences, as there is no causal state other than what can be assumed to be a "mind". Determinism does not allow chance occurrences.

What is attractive about free will?

Bill gates has Asperger's syndrome.. I don't necessairly think that makes him cold and heartless or even necessitates an assimilation between him and Teresa.. each brought something different to the world.. that is what we are all here for so we can offer something different and not be clones of each other...

Who will have effectively accomplished more to help the people of this world, Bill Gates or Mother Teresa? It's a simple question. Consider the social and economic factors of the work each has done, and the lasting effects of each.

I'm not questioning the approach, I’m questioning the effectiveness.

I am not sure what you want explained..it is pretty self-explanatory.. any further I'll have to delve into theology that you don't agree with or even believe in...

What does theology have to do with free will? Yes, people will laugh. Free will is quite often used as a defense for the existence of god. But, the concept of free will is not contingent on the acceptance of any one particular theology.

I don't have to agree with or believe in theology to understand it, nor do most people understand it despite the fact that they believe in it. Surely you can give me the credit for having an ability to understand, and if it can be shown that I do not, then it is only to my benefit.

I understand that you may see a conversation with me as beneficial to you. Perhaps it is a chance for you to convert a wayward soul, and surely "god" can see that your efforts for the sake of propagating Islam are worthy of some reward. If that's your motive, that’s perfectly fine. Would you find comfort in the fact that this is a small step forward for you for the sake of Allah?

I believe the metaphysical heart and the physiological one are on equal grounds for survival... I have quite a few research articles on death ensuing from what can be absuredly deemed a 'broken heart' I do have a difficult time conciliating the latter with atheism which seems to me very sterile and dealing only with the material... I am not sure what your definitions are of the metphysical or where you draw your info from?

I don’t think my definition of metaphysical would differ from yours.

Courage, honor, a "sense of purpose" and virtue, where do these come from? They are ideas you can comprehend with your brain. A “broken heart” can only come from trust, faith, or belief in an ideal that fails us, and the realization that the very principles by which one lives his/her life are a source of deception.

I've yet to delve into the topic of death from a "broken heart". If you wouldn't mind providing me with a reference, I'd appreciate it. :)

God is time as he so describes himself in the hadiths I provided plus the other 99 attributes he ascribes to himself in his names... for instance when we say God is 'Ar-rahman' ( the merciful) it doesn't mean that is all he is he is also the other 98 raheem, ra'oof , Jabar etc etc etc.. but it is a part of what he is and an attribute along with the others...

Some basic foundations in religion would have to be established and agreed upon in order for us to have this conversation.. it is a very ancillary topic and not the main objective...

Okay, it was your question. If you choose to continue I'll certainly reply.

That is another thing I don't understand.. technically none of us is guranteed another second.. My brother's neighbor in Long Island just died last tuesday.. a man full of youth anf vigor, works out, jogs every morning, just adopted another chinese girl a few months ago.. you'd think he'd have anoter 50 years under his belt, walks his two cuties to the bus stop every morining and says hello to everyone, has an amazing cheerful disposition... Yet and I kid you not, he died choking on a chicken bone... a completely senseless and preventable death, yet it was his time to go.. I know I digress but I just can't reconcile why anyone who knows of the fragility of life would want to spend it on a forum in a meaningless exchange such as this when he should be eating life up?

It's simple. It is because I know how fragile life is that I seek the answers to these questions. Would god love me more if I had remained passive and ignorant, or if I had at least made the attempt to understand life and my role? Your god, self proclaimed to be omniscient and benevolent, will surely see that this is my jihad. If I am not deserving of a reward for my intentions, at the very least I am not the greatest of sinners. I can't imagine a punishment for making the attempt.

your parents have much more experience with life than you do and while you might look down at them for lacking the intellect or the desire to seek answers outside the confines of their culture that you possess, they still have important lessons to share with you and you must consider what they say.

instead of saying to them that you are an atheist and you know such and such things... it would be better to tell them you have questions, challenges and differences in what you know and have learned. talk to them about these things and keep an open mind, ask for advice and input instead of demanding they accept everything you say as the final word. and perhaps you can learn from this experience too

Hola Jayda,

Convengo con usted. :) That's all I remember of my Spanish, as I haven't used it in 12 years.

I agree with you, and was thinking of the same thing myself. In order to be accepted I need to make an approach that does not demand an immediate action on their part. If they come to realize gradually that I/we may have irreconcilable differences, then it might make things easier for everyone.

I am open changes if they are necessary. Life would become quite dull and boring if I could not learn anything new. As for the lessons of my parents, I'm sure they would love to help me if I sought their advice. One must keep in mind that there will be a bias to that advice, and it would not be unexpected because there is a level of emotional attachment.

Gracias hermana y buena suerte!

[جوري]

I suppose I could give you my definition and you can tell me if yours is any different.

Free will: The concept that one has an ability to choose his or her own actions which are unconstrained by external or internal influences. In essence, the idea that there is a "causal gap" and a possibility that for every cause, there is more than one event with chance of occurring. This bestows a "choice" upon you and me, and an ability to intervene in the "laws" of nature to bring about a effect that may or may not be desirable. The effect itself is not the concern; it is the existence of a causal gap.

Determinism: the concept that for any event there is an antecedent state of nature, which through the laws of nature, could only result in the occurrence of that event. In essence, it is the idea that a series of causes and effects rule the continuum of time and each state of nature. Chance does not play a role, as the system itself has only one possible state at any given point in time.

Free will cannot take into account any ideals, philosophies, religions, or other external factors which limit your choices. If you choose to create a stone idol, and within a moment realize that your initial intentions conflict with your religion and out of that realization you chose to not create a stone idol, then you do not have free will. There is an external factor which influences your choices.

Free will cannot take into account pain or pleasure, or their varying degrees found in hunger or any of the senses. If you choose to swim across the Amazon River, and due pain or hunger decide to turn back or quit, then you do not have free will. There is an internal factor which influences your choices.

Free will creates chance occurrences, as there is no causal state other than what can be assumed to be a "mind". Determinism does not allow chance occurrences.

What is attractive about free will?

You have free will in there it is true 'The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies' The rest are your own additives.

for instance when you use terms like 'external or internal influences' I have a little problem with that...
Say, I am going to choose an innocuous example away from theology...
You want to take a bath, you step in the tub.. you have the free will to make that water temperature a cold 58 degrees, you also have the ability to make it a scalding 140 degrees. The decision in either circumstance will be yours.. However, given that you are a thinking rational human being, you'll not choose either extremes but will make it a comfortable lukewarm a few degrees from the norm of most rational human beings.. can we get you to agree on that much?

determinism to me a theory holding that all events are inevitable consequences of antecedent sufficient causes; often understood by most as denying the possibility of free will... but I see it as a subsidiary to free will..

You have free will within a 'matrix' where the laws are already defined... You can't for instance decide you'll walk on air today, though you have the ability to decide for yourself and no one is to stop you.. Laws of physics are sure to give you a loud sploot when you walk off that promontory.

Who will have effectively accomplished more to help the people of this world, Bill Gates or Mother Teresa? It's a simple question. Consider the social and economic factors of the work each has done, and the lasting effects of each.

I can't compare things that are have no bearing or any connection to one another.. which do you think is the better fruit for humanity a kiwi or a passion fruit?

I'm not questioning the approach, I’m questioning the effectiveness.

I can't compare effectiveness of things that have no relevance to one another... again which do you think is better for humanity a Doctor or an engineer? The man who invented a shunt to drain hydrocephalus wasn't a doctor, he was in fact an engineer whose child was born with that condition. True the doctors at the time were powerless against what to do in such a condition... the engineer helped his son.. his son went on to become a great composer ( true stories) I am not making it up for the sake of examples.. again I ask whose job is the most important or the most effective? Each offers humanity something all together different, none are subject to comparison they are complementary to humanity and humanity is based on each person doing something different we can't all be doctors, we can'tall be plumbers we can't all be sanitation engineers!

What does theology have to do with free will? Yes, people will laugh. Free will is quite often used as a defense for the existence of god. But, the concept of free will is not contingent on the acceptance of any one particular theology.

Has everything and none at all, depending on your perspective... BTW just to get this out of the way, I don't think God needs a defense!

I don't have to agree with or believe in theology to understand it, nor do most people understand it despite the fact that they believe in it. Surely you can give me the credit for having an ability to understand, and if it can be shown that I do not, then it is only to my benefit.

Indeed!

I understand that you may see a conversation with me as beneficial to you. Perhaps it is a chance for you to convert a wayward soul, and surely "god" can see that your efforts for the sake of propagating Islam are worthy of some reward. If that's your motive, that’s perfectly fine. Would you find comfort in the fact that this is a small step forward for you for the sake of Allah?

No.. let's get one thing out of the way, If I wanted to convert anyone, I'd start with my two dearest friends.. one is a protestant and the other sikh.. surely in my life they are worth more than a complete anon? And another thing out of the way.. Islam is a matter of the heart.. there was a man in the time of the prophet (p) who was a complete hafith who became an apostate and was granted reprieve, I forget his name, will look for it later..so do understand that much, it makes no difference whatsoever in my life how many are Muslim over how many aren't, who is coming in or out...this isn't merely an informed decision on your part, but a burden that has to be satisfactory to you both heart and mind..something that you are willing to live with.. It is about your comfort level..I play absolutely no part in that... I have no vested interest in this forum, in fact I joined to learn just like the rest. And every day I am so grateful because no matter how little educated or highly educated, poorly engaging or highly cultivated each member has and continues to teach me something new.. and that is indeed humbling...

I don’t think my definition of metaphysical would differ from yours.

Ok

Courage, honor, a "sense of purpose" and virtue, where do these come from? They are ideas you can comprehend with your brain. A “broken heart” can only come from trust, faith, or belief in an ideal that fails us, and the realization that the very principles by which one lives his/her life are a source of deception.

For me I have resolved and at peace with where most come from, but I can't influence that for you under any light.. since life is a long learning process and a fard (compulsory) on each Muslim..

I've yet to delve into the topic of death from a "broken heart". If you wouldn't mind providing me with a reference, I'd appreciate it. :)

this here is third part source..
http://www.webmd.com/content/article...531713CA348%7D
here is another
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pag...61&pageindex=1

but I will be honest.. I have read better than those two :smile: I just have a very large cache to go through if you prefer better than webMD and pubmed for now?

It's simple. It is because I know how fragile life is that I seek the answers to these questions. Would god love me more if I had remained passive and ignorant, or if I had at least made the attempt to understand life and my role? Your god, self proclaimed to be omniscient and benevolent, will surely see that this is my jihad. If I am not deserving of a reward for my intentions, at the very least I am not the greatest of sinners. I can't imagine a punishment for making the attempt.

I can't attempt to on any level speak for God.. I do however know from ahadith and the Quran that God prefers learned servants over ignorant ones...
"And say: My Lord increase me in knowledge."

(Qur'an, Ta-Ha 20:114)

"Allah will raise up, to (suitable) ranks and (degrees), those of you who believe and who have been granted knowledge. And Allah is well-acquainted with all you do."

(Qur'an, Al-Mujadilah 58:11)


"There is no one worthy of worship but He: That is the witness of Allah, His angels and those endowed with knowledge, Standing firm in Justice (or maintaining His Creation in Justice). There is no god but He, the Exalted in power, the Wise."

(Qur'an, Al-'Imran 3:18)


"It is only those who have knowledge among His servants that fear Allah."

(Qur'an, Fatir 35:28)


So you have no fears as far as seeking knowledge-- what you do with what you have learned is an entirely different story...

I am not your intercessor to God..whether or not you think he exists is inconsequential..I have written this before in regard what people choose to believe or ignore
people can go on perfectly happy not knowing or even believing that there is such a thing as TPR governing their life-- yet the interplay between mean Arterial pressure, cardiac output and total peripheral resistance keeps ones system in homeostasis and alive... if one of them should fail acutely or chronically it would lead to eventual demise... Many people can go on ignoring them--- some might read up a little when sick and stick with meds as prescribed or needed... some might go against medical advise and just call it bluff ( no such formula exists) my life isn't governed by formulas, and then end up dead with their belief that no such thing governs my body's homeostasis...

what I mean is ignoring it doesn't mean it isn't running your life 24/7..calling it my formula or the neighbor's doesn't make it any less yours...but I am certainly not responsible for how you use that knowledge, if you believe it or not, it is YOUR CROSS TO BEAR!
and you should be able to handle the consequence of that.. I am not going to believe that kuffr is less bad because a really nice person thought it over and declared there is no God... the rules are a done deal, there is no room for a temporary expedient this century or the next.. and you indeed have the free will to deal with them as you please..

In spite of all our advances we really are primitive creatures...

listen to the last few verses of this sura...I tell you, it really doesn't matter how advanced when comes that moment of death, all we can truly do is watch and know that someday we are next...death has an incredible way of making us all so primitive again...I find most of our human emotions, fears, aspirations, desires, no different than they were 5000 yrs ago... fact if we just get creative with word or colorful with what we deem more appropriate for this century, like a fashion statement almost...

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peace!