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sevgi
10-31-2007, 05:44 AM
i thought i'd get some insight on the views of members of this forum on what is going on with the Armenian question and the US at the moment.feel free to stray off this article...i personally, am yet to understand why the US's opinion matters, and why they dnt go look at their current issues rather than fiddling with the past of others...

Vote on Armenian 'genocide' resolution put off

Supporters of a congressional resolution that would have declared the Ottoman-era killings of Armenians "genocide" dropped their call for a vote on the measure Thursday.

The resolution spurred fierce criticism from NATO ally Turkey, where officials acknowledge the killings of Armenians during World War I but vehemently object to the designation "genocide."

Turkish leaders threatened to curtail U.S. access to bases vital to supporting the more than 160,000 American troops in Iraq if the measure passed.

The Bush administration, which is trying to persuade Turkey not to launch cross-border raids against Kurdish rebels in Iraq, had lobbied aggressively against the resolution as well.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told a House committee Thursday that the resolution's consequences on the war in Iraq would be "quite dire."
The House Foreign Affairs Committee approved the resolution earlier this month. But Rep. Rahm Emanuel, the No. 3 Democrat in the House of Representatives, conceded last week that "the votes are not there" for the resolution to clear the full House.

In a letter to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, its major sponsors wrote that the measure would pass "if the timing is more favorable." Pelosi, D-California, had promised to schedule a floor vote if the resolution made it out of committee, but told reporters Thursday that she accepted the sponsors' request to set the matter aside.

Though the sponsors, led by California Democrat Adam Schiff, suggested the measure could be brought back later this year, a senior Democratic leadership aide said the issue is off the table indefinitely.

"This is not going to be taken up until next year at the earliest," the aide said.
Historians estimate about 1.5 million Armenians were killed by the Ottoman Empire -- the predecessor of modern Turkey -- during World War I. But Turkey, now a secular and democratic Muslim nation, and masses of its people reject the term genocide, viewing the deaths as part of a war that claimed lives among all peoples in the region.

House Minority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said the handling of the issue raises questions about the judgment of Democratic leaders -- "a pattern that is undermining our national security."

"Given Turkey's importance in the war on terror, the role it plays in the care of our troops on the ground, and their close alliance with us in NATO, attempting to force a vote on this resolution in the first place was just plain reckless," Boehner said in a written statement after the news emerged.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/me.../25/us.turkey/
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Gator
10-31-2007, 12:59 PM
In my opinion, the issue is just votes. The Armenians in the states are well organized politically. My wife and I have friends who are Armenians and they are part of a tight knit community. For example, neither would marry a non-armenian and we had actually discussed the issue. So when I heard about this it was not surprising.

Yeah, even if we pass this, who would care. How bout Turkey condeming our genocide toward the Native Americans? Every country/society has a dark part of its history. Let's just try to move on.
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sevgi
10-31-2007, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
In my opinion, the issue is just votes. The Armenians in the states are well organized politically. My wife and I have friends who are Armenians and they are part of a tight knit community. For example, neither would marry a non-armenian and we had actually discussed the issue. So when I heard about this it was not surprising.

Yeah, even if we pass this, who would care. How bout Turkey condeming our genocide toward the Native Americans? Every country/society has a dark part of its history. Let's just try to move on.
be my new best frend..pretty please...
:D

i agree one hundred percent...unless the UN recognises it as a genocide, i dnt think its any of anyone elses business...not the US, not france...

but they do stirr up a cuffuffle...and thats wat these announcements are for..who knows whats under their sleeve...

u dnt just attack the integrity and 'national pride' of a country for no reason.
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MTAFFI
10-31-2007, 02:06 PM
it has often crossed my mind that perhaps the democrats are stirring trouble with turkey to minimize Bush's entrances and exits in Iraq and possible encourage a withdrawl. Turkey is a key ally for the US in Iraq, ticking them off would be devastating to certain operations.... but who really knows, perhaps they just woke up and thought "hmmmmm..... lets spin the war wheel and see who we can tick off today" :mmokay:
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Gator
10-31-2007, 02:27 PM
[QUOTE=sumeyye;851796]be my new best frend..pretty please...
:D
[QUOTE]Love to!:sunny:

As for any hidden agenda I highly doubt it. Just vote seeking without any thought behind it.
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sevgi
10-31-2007, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
it has often crossed my mind that perhaps the democrats are stirring trouble with turkey to minimize Bush's entrances and exits in Iraq and possible encourage a withdrawl. Turkey is a key ally for the US in Iraq, ticking them off would be devastating to certain operations.... but who really knows, perhaps they just woke up and thought "hmmmmm..... lets spin the war wheel and see who we can tick off today" :mmokay:
either way theyre playing with a nations pride and history and reputation til the end of time.

it hurts deep.
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Amadeus85
10-31-2007, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gator
In my opinion, the issue is just votes. The Armenians in the states are well organized politically. My wife and I have friends who are Armenians and they are part of a tight knit community. For example, neither would marry a non-armenian and we had actually discussed the issue. So when I heard about this it was not surprising.

Yeah, even if we pass this, who would care. How bout Turkey condeming our genocide toward the Native Americans? Every country/society has a dark part of its history. Let's just try to move on.
Armenian genocide was one of the three biggest genocides in XX century.The other two were Holocaust and the killing of millions Ukrainian peasants by Stalin. It is historical fact and thats why it must be said once for all what hapenned there. Of course armenian genocide is nowadays very political incorrect as the murderers were muslims and the victims were christians so it doesnt match to the nowadays stereotype- white christian the opressor and muslim the victim.
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sevgi
10-31-2007, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Armenian genocide was one of the three biggest genocides in XX century.The other two were Holocaust and the killing of millions Ukrainian peasants by Stalin. It is historical fact and thats why it must be said once for all what hapenned there. Of course armenian genocide is nowadays very political incorrect as the murderers were muslims and the victims were christians so it doesnt match to the nowadays stereotype- white christian the opressor and muslim the victim.
who called it a historical fact?

lol. i beg to differ.

it depends on which side u look at it from.

i was affraid that ppl without enuf depth and complexity of understanding and reading on the issue would reply like this...
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Amadeus85
10-31-2007, 03:11 PM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
who called it a historical fact?

lol. i beg to differ.

it depends on which side u look at it from.

i was affraid that ppl without enuf depth and complexity of understanding and reading on the issue would reply like this...
Who called it a historical fact? Only this week my profesor in my college was talking about it. There are many pics and other materials.Of course those who dont want to see this, they won't see. Just like even now there are people who deny Holocaust/.
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sevgi
10-31-2007, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Who called it a historical fact? Only this week my profesor in my college was talking about it. There are many pics and other materials.Of course those who dont want to see this, they won't see. Just like even now there are people who deny Holocaust/.
lol...

im writing my honours thesis on the armenian genocide inshallah...

i just finished a course on 'the genocides'...

yep...everyone of em...

lol...'just the other day my professor was talking abt it too.' lol.

historical facts on the armenian side show that 1.5mil armenians died.
historical facts on the ottoman side show that merely 500 000 armeians died.

these are both facts. one side doesnt accept this and that, the other adds a little too much salt n pepper...and voila! a cuffuffle of historical facts.

id like to argue that there is no such thing as a historical fact.but im too sleepy.

history=bias bias bias!

peace.
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Amadeus85
10-31-2007, 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
lol...

im writing my honours thesis on the armenian genocide inshallah...

i just finished a course on 'the genocides'...

yep...everyone of em...

lol...'just the other day my professor was talking abt it too.' lol.

historical facts on the armenian side show that 1.5mil armenians died.
historical facts on the ottoman side show that merely 500 000 armeians died.

these are both facts. one side doesnt accept this and that, the other adds a little too much salt n pepper...and voila! a cuffuffle of historical facts.

id like to argue that there is no such thing as a historical fact.but im too sleepy.

history=bias bias bias!

peace.
Its natural that Turks make the numbers lower, isn't it? Actually i also read many things about it and all of them admit that Ottomans killed about 1,5 millions of Armenians.All people who study history who i know also agree with that. Actually no one that i know even doubt it. I think that its good that this case isnt forgotten and France and USA say about this. Just like we cant forget the victims of Shoah , we also cant forget the victims of Armenian genocide, even if Turkey is so afraid about it.
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MTAFFI
10-31-2007, 03:42 PM
if you have time to read this three page spread, I found some of it to be pretty informative since it was written during those times

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...CF&oref=slogin

I guess you have to first determine what a genocide actually is.... Is it determined by #'s or is it determined by the senseless killing of a persons political, racial or religious orientation. Personally I would call it a genocide, but the ottoman empire doesnt exist today, turkey is certainly not that country anymore and everything that could have been recorded in the books is there for those who wish to dig it up. I dont think that the US politicians need to do it right now and I am not sure what their motive is in bringing it back into the light. I am sure that it is considered to be a shameful time for the Turks and others who live in the region and they would probably like to live it in their past.
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Muezzin
10-31-2007, 04:40 PM
History is written by the victors.

That's why it ticks me off when every flamin' politician wants 'history to judge' or some such rubbish.

Although, if Boris Johnson ever becomes Prime Minister, it should make some funny reading for our great-great grandkiddies.
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wilberhum
10-31-2007, 05:36 PM
I think calling the Armenian massacre “genocide” is calling a spade a spade and is long over due. I put it in the same category as “Holocaust Denial”.

I due question the timing and alter motives. My bet is that they are less than honorable.

The thing that discusses me is I feel at the same time they needed to call what was done to the Native Americans genocide too.
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sevgi
11-01-2007, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Its natural that Turks make the numbers lower, isn't it? Actually i also read many things about it and all of them admit that Ottomans killed about 1,5 millions of Armenians.All people who study history who i know also agree with that. Actually no one that i know even doubt it. I think that its good that this case isnt forgotten and France and USA say about this. Just like we cant forget the victims of Shoah , we also cant forget the victims of Armenian genocide, even if Turkey is so afraid about it.
dnt u think its natural that the armenians up the number?

everythng u say can be flipped.

both sides are scared. today the key factor of ones identity has become ones 'nation'. no nation=no identity.

armenians are equally scared.

turks have this 'national pride' to preserve. God knows what the hell national pride is...

but both sides are correct.

to tell u the truth, while doing my studies i am obliged to put my bias aside. im not out to become one of those 'for my country' scholars.

i merely work with 'historical facts' and perspectives of then and now.i do my best to fit em all together.

thus, i have no opinion. i dno if it was a genocide. i dnt think it matters.

THE KEY PROBLEM IS THE DEFINITION OF GENOCIDE.

we need one solid one in order to categorise war crimes etc...we dnt have one at the moment.

thats why its so hard to label the armenian conflict a genoicde.

look.im ending this here.

one more thing. if ur proff. etc hold a bias and portra it to the class, tehy arent very proffesional and i'd question their scholarship.

pls debate with someone else.

i appreciate ur views.

peace.
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sevgi
11-01-2007, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
if you have time to read this three page spread, I found some of it to be pretty informative since it was written during those times

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...CF&oref=slogin

I guess you have to first determine what a genocide actually is.... Is it determined by #'s or is it determined by the senseless killing of a persons political, racial or religious orientation. Personally I would call it a genocide, but the ottoman empire doesnt exist today, turkey is certainly not that country anymore and everything that could have been recorded in the books is there for those who wish to dig it up. I dont think that the US politicians need to do it right now and I am not sure what their motive is in bringing it back into the light. I am sure that it is considered to be a shameful time for the Turks and others who live in the region and they would probably like to live it in their past.
we seem to think alike...

cool.
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sevgi
11-01-2007, 12:46 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
I think calling the Armenian massacre “genocide” is calling a spade a spade and is long over due. I put it in the same category as “Holocaust Denial”.

I due question the timing and alter motives. My bet is that they are less than honorable.

The thing that discusses me is I feel at the same time they needed to call what was done to the Native Americans genocide too.
im teln ya...its becuase we dnt have a good enough definition of genocide.

lemkin came close...but he got a little too close and heated.and was extrememly biased.

so when the UN genocide convention was established, it ruled out all the cultural and social aspects lemkin was yapping abt.

its so convoluted, its almost impossible to hold a debate abt whether or not the ottoman state did commit genocide. seriously.

peace.
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MTAFFI
11-01-2007, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
we seem to think alike...

cool.
you know what they say about great minds :sunny:
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Keltoi
11-01-2007, 03:11 PM
I think the Democrats were simply trying to make life more difficult for the Bush administration in their relationship with Turkey. If the Dems were really concerned about the Armenians, why wait till 2007 on the heels of an election year? Just feels bogus to me.
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yigiter187
11-01-2007, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Its natural that Turks make the numbers lower, isn't it? Actually i also read many things about it and all of them admit that Ottomans killed about 1,5 millions of Armenians.All people who study history who i know also agree with that. Actually no one that i know even doubt it. I think that its good that this case isnt forgotten and France and USA say about this. Just like we cant forget the victims of Shoah , we also cant forget the victims of Armenian genocide, even if Turkey is so afraid about it.
historians make history clear not the politicians..we are open to all historians even to armenian historians..we open our archives...but armenia runs away...we call all historians of the world to turkey..they will se who killed who...
two-facedness of west again...we killed 500.000 japans,2.000.000 ıraqıs ,so many afgans,we killed jews,we killed us indians,we killed algerians..arent we?

we are open to everyone come and see all of our our archives,rsearch all of skeletons u find...but nobody comes..coz they know that we didnt do genocide,so-called genocide..
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MTAFFI
11-01-2007, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think the Democrats were simply trying to make life more difficult for the Bush administration in their relationship with Turkey. If the Dems were really concerned about the Armenians, why wait till 2007 on the heels of an election year? Just feels bogus to me.
i said the same thing earlier
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MTAFFI
11-01-2007, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by yigiter187
historians make history clear not the politicians..we are open to all historians even to armenian historians..we open our archives...but armenia runs away...we call all historians of the world to turkey..they will se who killed who...
two-facedness of west again...we killed 500.000 japans,2.000.000 ıraqıs ,so many afgans,we killed jews,we killed us indians,we killed algerians..arent we?

we are open to everyone come and see all of our our archives,rsearch all of skeletons u find...but nobody comes..coz they know that we didnt do genocide,so-called genocide..
gen·o·cide –noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

japan - that was a war with a country, not a genocide, there was no systematic extermination of anyone

indians - the US was not the US, it was america and was under the control and orders of the British, so perhaps you would like to blame that on them

iraqis - 2,000,000?!?! This # gets more proposterous with every person that writes it, perhaps you should look at the dictator Saddam who killed many more than before the US arrived, and dont bother blaming the sanctions since Saddam single handedly declined humanitarian aid provided by the US and the UN

afghans - no one is there to exterminate the afghan people just a terrorist group called the Taliban

I dont think being two faced has anything to do with this issue (and dont get me wrong, I dont see any reason to make this tragedy an issue today, since everyone does have their own ugly past) However when looking at the armenian incident (I use that word since it is disputed) I have to say that it appears to be a genocide. A select group of people specifically based on their cultural group was systematically murdered in mass numbers. Is it not a genocide if the number isnt 500,001? If so what is the magic number to you that makes a genocide? Take a look at the definition and then take a look at the records as you mentioned above and I think it is fairly easy to see that it was in fact a genocide, no amount of denial or manipulation of numbers or facts will change that, whether it was 1 or 2 million or 500,000, either way it is a tragedy and it should be recognized as such. With that said, Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire any more than the US is a British colony so lets just leave the good people of Turkey alone and stop dragging the history of their land up when it is absolutely irrelevant to anything that is going on in the world today.

democrats are idiots

PEACE
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Amadeus85
11-01-2007, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
[B]

democrats are idiots

PEACE
Yes. Most of them. :omg:
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sevgi
11-02-2007, 05:36 AM
just adding to all below...

yes democrats are idiots...and as one of u said below, the US involvement is surely a strike in the election year...thats evident to all.

back to genocide tho...ur definition MTAFFI is a vague one.but yes, thats what it is when u are looking at it as merely a term.

genocide lies wholly on intent.purpertrator intention...as yigiter said..we killed lots a people..but the intentions werent genocide.

i could go on for days abt the Armenian conflict, but we have to understand that both sides have valid arguments.very valid....armenians take it as a massive hate crime.turks say we were deporting em and they died from illness and hunger including our turks...this is all part of war. then the armenians say that the turks took longer and harder routes during the deportations, the turks say thats just stupid and that they shud prove it...then they cant prove it...then they start from the top again.

how does one prove intent?

and its none of any other countries business.why bring it up?

whos gna pay for what? is it fair that the turkey today, pays for the illicit doings of the ottoman state and its skewed jon turks?

as i said..the armenian conflict is so bloody complex..noone knows what to make of it.

i personally dnt believe the intent was genocide.i do believe that the intent was to harm them and get them outta the country...

it all comes down to politics...the turks say "u started it"...the armenians say "u ended it"..

they are both very faulty...they shud jst get over it...
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KAding
11-02-2007, 11:35 AM
My take on this: Politicians should leave this up to the historians to decide!

But thank God the US congress is just debating this matter. In France they actually made it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm)

IMHO that is 100x worse! Politicians making laws which historical interpretation is right, this absolutely disgusts me!
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sevgi
11-02-2007, 11:38 AM
Originally Posted by KAding
My take on this: Politicians should leave this up to the historians to decide!

But thank God the US congress is just debating this matter. In France they actually made it a crime to deny the Armenian genocide. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6043730.stm)

IMHO that is 100x worse! Politicians making laws which historical interpretation is right, this absolutely disgusts me!
yes...we've established that...and im glad that u also see this.

as i said earlier...these political involvements are all stunts...the public eye is one which is easily skewed.individuals think something...but for some reason the collective mind seems to think something else...

its weird.
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KAding
11-02-2007, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by sumeyye
yes...we've established that...and im glad that u also see this.

as i said earlier...these political involvements are all stunts...the public eye is one which is easily skewed.individuals think something...but for some reason the collective mind seems to think something else...

its weird.
Well, I'm not so sure. Its not all simply political opportunism, although it might play a part. There are a lot of people who are just as convinced that there was a genocide and that its an outrage that it never was recognized. And they feel such political announcements are necessary to achieve somekind of justice and to pressure Turkey into accepting their historical responsibility. I simply don't know, I'm not knowledgeable about what happened then. But the simple fact is that a lot of people who are knowledgeable are convinced genocide took place. And there are also a lot who disagree with this. So I'm on the fence on this matter.

Nevertheless, I think it's a mistake to think those on the other side have shady motives and are just pulling 'political stunts'.
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Amadeus85
11-05-2007, 10:38 PM
24 August 1939, one week before the beggining of the War World II, Hitler spoke at the german Headquarter- " I don't care what the Western Civilization will say about it. My Dead Skulls (german troops) will attack Poles and destroy this nation. Be sure and calm.Does anyone now remember yet about the massacre of Armenians?"
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sevgi
11-06-2007, 12:55 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
24 August 1939, one week before the beggining of the War World II, Hitler spoke at the german Headquarter- " I don't care what the Western Civilization will say about it. My Dead Skulls (german troops) will attack Poles and destroy this nation. Be sure and calm.Does anyone now remember yet about the massacre of Armenians?"
relevent in what way?:)
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yigiter187
11-06-2007, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
gen·o·cide –noun the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.

japan - that was a war with a country, not a genocide, there was no systematic extermination of anyone

indians - the US was not the US, it was america and was under the control and orders of the British, so perhaps you would like to blame that on them

iraqis - 2,000,000?!?! This # gets more proposterous with every person that writes it, perhaps you should look at the dictator Saddam who killed many more than before the US arrived, and dont bother blaming the sanctions since Saddam single handedly declined humanitarian aid provided by the US and the UN

afghans - no one is there to exterminate the afghan people just a terrorist group called the Taliban

I dont think being two faced has anything to do with this issue (and dont get me wrong, I dont see any reason to make this tragedy an issue today, since everyone does have their own ugly past) However when looking at the armenian incident (I use that word since it is disputed) I have to say that it appears to be a genocide. A select group of people specifically based on their cultural group was systematically murdered in mass numbers. Is it not a genocide if the number isnt 500,001? If so what is the magic number to you that makes a genocide? Take a look at the definition and then take a look at the records as you mentioned above and I think it is fairly easy to see that it was in fact a genocide, no amount of denial or manipulation of numbers or facts will change that, whether it was 1 or 2 million or 500,000, either way it is a tragedy and it should be recognized as such. With that said, Turkey is no longer the Ottoman Empire any more than the US is a British colony so lets just leave the good people of Turkey alone and stop dragging the history of their land up when it is absolutely irrelevant to anything that is going on in the world today.

democrats are idiots

PEACE
in a war the country A KİLLED 5.000.000 ıraqıs
in a genocide the country B killed 500.000 ıraqıs.....which one is genocide,which one is wilder,inhumane?
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MTAFFI
11-06-2007, 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by yigiter187
in a war the country A KİLLED 5.000.000 ıraqıs
in a genocide the country B killed 500.000 ıraqıs.....which one is genocide,which one is wilder,inhumane?
i dont think that it is a systematic extermination of Iraqis, and if anything the two sectarian groups are committing genocide against one another, but the US did not and is not in Iraq to kill all Iraqis or exterminate any political, religious, racial, or ethnic group, in fact the only reason the US is still in Iraq is to help try to preserve life and help to try and drive those who wish to take life out of Iraq or to put them to death

but what does the US's problems in Iraq have to do with the tragedy that the Armenians incurred? Do you believe that bringing attention the faults of other will make the faults of the Ottoman Empire any better? If so you are no better than the US politicians who are doing the same for their political agendas
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wilberhum
11-06-2007, 06:06 PM
Turkey moves to change speech law
The Turkish government says it will change a controversial law restricting freedom of expression.
Justice Minister Mehmet Ali Sahin said a new bill would be put before the Turkish parliament in the coming days.

The law, known as Article 301, bans perceived insults to Turkish identity or the country's institutions.

It has often been invoked by nationalists against those who argue the Ottoman empire committed genocide against Armenians.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/7081747.stm
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yigiter187
11-07-2007, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
Do you believe that bringing attention the faults of other will make the faults of the Ottoman Empire any better? If so you are no better than the US politicians who are doing the same for their political agendas
ottomans did nothing to armenians..ottomans relieved them so much..but they betrayed us with russia...although they did this to us,ottomans didnt kill them..u know- indeed ppl recognising so-called arm.genocide know nothing about the issue..
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MTAFFI
11-07-2007, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by yigiter187
ottomans did nothing to armenians..ottomans relieved them so much..but they betrayed us with russia...although they did this to us,ottomans didnt kill them..u know- indeed ppl recognising so-called arm.genocide know nothing about the issue..
was it ever proven that they aided the Russians? Were 250 not collected and executed for their alleged involvment? Did the entire 2.5 million armenians involved with the Russians? Do you think it was necessary to deprive the armenians of food and water, and rape the women on a regular basis? I seriously doubt it, perhaps you should research the issue a bit more... I hope these statements do not offend you and I would like to continue this conversation with you in a polite and mature fashion, so please answer these questions and please inform me of your view as well as I am very interested in hearing it since according you your little profile thingy you are from Turkey

PEACE

(Also please try to keep in mind that as far as US congress goes and dragging this issue up during this time, I think it is not only stupid and irrelevant but I also can understand your and your countries frustration, and I apologize for that.)
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