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S_87
11-01-2007, 10:33 PM
Peace

5 Executed for Madinah Boy’s Rape-Murder
P.K. Abdul Ghafour, Arab News

JEDDAH, 1 November 2007 — Saudi authorities in Madinah yesterday executed five Saudi men for raping and murdering a young boy, the Saudi Press Agency reported, quoting an Interior Ministry statement.

The ministry identified the five as Khaled ibn Humaid Al-Sahli, Ali ibn Ahmed Ayashi, Jazi ibn Samayel Al-Maraashi, Hani ibn Abdullah Al-Aufi and Aaish ibn Salim Al-Muhammadi.

“The five were found guilty of abducting the young boy, raping him and killing him by slitting his throat and then decapitating the body with a knife,” the statement said. The five criminals later threw the young boy’s headless body into a valley.

The ministry did not say when the crime took place or who the victim was. The statement, however, pointed out that the five Saudi criminals were drunkards, drug addicts and had previously stolen a number of cars.

The horrifying discovery of a headless body in the Erwa Valley in Madinah was widely reported in the local press in February 2004. The incident had terrified the area residents.

One report published at the time said the boy was a Pakistani.

Arab News reported on Feb. 10, 2004, that police were searching for the boy’s head and that they had taken DNA samples from the missing Pakistani boy’s parents after they expressed doubts that the headless body was their son’s. The body was so disfigured that the parents were unable to identify it with certainty.

The ministry said the five Saudis confessed to murdering the boy and committing several other crimes that terrorized peaceful people and undermined security. It said the Court of Appeals as well as the Supreme Judiciary Council endorsed the Shariah Court’s verdict to behead the five.

The ministry warned criminals intending to attack peaceful people, cause bloodshed and violate honor that they would receive severe punishment.
http://arabnews.com/?page=1&section=...tegory=Kingdom


id be interested to know if any non muslim condemn them being executed for their crime? do you think these people should be left in jail and given the chance to live after what they have done?
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Woodrow
11-04-2007, 03:02 AM
Thread Approved
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jouju
11-04-2007, 05:30 AM
subhanallah...Where is this world heading to????????
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Tania
11-04-2007, 07:40 AM
I would go for jail because i don't think the justice system its perfect. I watch a tv show on Discovery where they showed convicted people in states for murder, sentenced to death which was found later not guilty. They have a system which force you in the end to confess you are guilty only to escape from the daily stress. One of them, after was executed was declared not guilty. Others, still in life, will receive from government money for the years spent in jail.
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Joe98
11-04-2007, 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by amani
id be interested to know if any non muslim condemn them being executed for their crime?

In my view execution is the correct punishment for the crime.

However, I don't trust Saudie justice and so it might have been somebody else.

And beheading is barbaric. Executon should be by another method.

-
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KAding
11-04-2007, 11:23 AM
Originally Posted by amani
Peace



http://arabnews.com/?page=1&section=...tegory=Kingdom


id be interested to know if any non muslim condemn them being executed for their crime? do you think these people should be left in jail and given the chance to live after what they have done?
In my opinion the death penalty isn't wrong per se. I do think some people deserve being put to death. The problem with the death penalty is its finality. We have no way to set right mistakes that were made. And any legal system is going to make mistakes, because of the simple fact that it is run by humans. History has shown that too many mistakes are made and innocent people put top death.

So I would definitely disagree with these death penalties. Life in prison would be a better option IMHO.
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Malaikah
11-04-2007, 01:44 PM
:sl:

I also agree with the concern showed about sentencing innocent people to death... which is why I only really approve of the death sentence is proper steps, according to Islamic law were taken to apply the ruling.

Poor child. :( Such a sickening attack.
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Tania
11-04-2007, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

I also agree with the concern showed about sentencing innocent people to death... which is why I only really approve of the death sentence is proper steps, according to Islamic law were taken to apply the ruling.

Poor child. :( Such a sickening attack.
I have doubts about the saudi justice especially after i read Rizana case here, a young woman which wanted to help her family and now face beheading because the child which was left in her care died(it was an accident).
Now, they found 5 men which are described like drunkards, taking drugs, so very negative. They are described in a way do not get any "doubt" about their character.
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Woodrow
11-04-2007, 04:53 PM
I too have mixed feelings about the death penalty. Not because I oppose the death penalty but because I have little faith in human courts of being able to absolutely confirm guilt or innocence.

As far as beheading, I can not see how that is any less or more Barbaric than any other form of execution. But, who said that execution needs to be or should be sanitized. The purpose of it is not to make the person enjoy it.

Beside it is now being found that lethal injection is not as painless or humane as was thought. It is being found out that the prisoner is merely paralyzed and unable to show pain or fear. But, apparently it is there and sometimes death does not occur for nearly any hour after the injections. It may look kinder, but the person may suffer more and longer than from any other form of execution.
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Whatsthepoint
11-04-2007, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
I too have mixed feelings about the death penalty. Not because I oppose the death penalty but because I have little faith in human courts of being able to absolutely confirm guilt or innocence.

As far as beheading, I can not see how that is any less or more Barbaric than any other form of execution. But, who said that execution needs to be or should be sanitized. The purpose of it is not to make the person enjoy it.

Beside it is now being found that lethal injection is not as painless or humane as was thought. It is being found out that the prisoner is merely paralyzed and unable to show pain or fear. But, apparently it is there and sometimes death does not occur for nearly any hour after the injections. It may look kinder, but the person may suffer more and longer than from any other form of execution.
Beheading is probably the least barbaric of all execution methods. It only takes 2-5 seconds, it's rather clean and, of course, cheap.
It's definitely much much better and more humane than stoning, gas chamber, electric chair and, as it seems, lethal injection.
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Tania
I have doubts about the saudi justice especially after i read Rizana case here, a young woman which wanted to help her family and now face beheading because the child which was left in her care died(it was an accident).
Now, they found 5 men which are described like drunkards, taking drugs, so very negative. They are described in a way do not get any "doubt" about their character.
I'm sorry, but your proof that it was an accident it what exactly?:? Are you assuming that she was innocent just because she said she was?

She said it was an accident, the parents of the child deny this, the court found her guilty.

She may or may not be innocent, but we can't just assume she was innocent when we have no proof at all and then say that the Saudi justice system is stuffed up based on our baseless assumption! :-\
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جوري
11-05-2007, 12:44 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow

Beside it is now being found that lethal injection is not as painless or humane as was thought. It is being found out that the prisoner is merely paralyzed and unable to show pain or fear. But, apparently it is there and sometimes death does not occur for nearly any hour after the injections. It may look kinder, but the person may suffer more and longer than from any other form of execution.
People will dance around the methods decreed and then come back to them anyway.. a guillotine is no different than a beheading...

I wasn't there to witness the details of this case, to pass an opinion on an a priori judgment. I think more often than not, people tend to forget the victim who has had an equally brutual and barbaric crime comitted against them in favor of criminals. I notice most so-called 'humanists' seem to advocate for lawlessness and crime rather than for justice.

The problem is these cases become subject to sensationalism and public opinion, when neither has room for this. Take a look a few yrs back at the case of timothy mcveigh.. did we have to know his last meal and interview him on his death bed.. so that this seems to some as 'humanistic'?

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Isambard
11-05-2007, 02:06 AM
If you could prove 100% that a person is guilty then death penalty would be fine. Seeing as you cant, and there have been cases where the person was really innocent, then no, you shouldnt have the death penality.

There is also the cost aspect unless you want to just hide any wrongfully convicted cases under the rug thereby removing the justice aspect entirely.

As per the article, I certainly dont trust the Saudi police as they have arrested and convicted ppl for things such as "Black magic".
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Gator
11-05-2007, 03:29 AM
I go for life in prison. Against state executions.
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جوري
11-05-2007, 03:38 AM
you speak as if you were a criminal?
I wouldn't want to feed a criminal and put a roof on his head while there are children literally starving to death..

Justice should be swift and it should fit the crime, media and people's opinion should be left out of it and shouldn't sway ruling one way or another. I don't want to turn on my TV to see OJ get away with murder, any more than I want to see a man convicted and serve 17 years for a crime he didn't do, one because he was rich enough and famous enough to get away with it, and the other because the man was black enough and fit the profile of people who just wanted to see someone get convicted and who would care any way, one less noisome minority off their streets. What a warped justice!
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Woodrow
11-05-2007, 04:36 AM
Sadly we as humans face too many temptations and prejudices. It is impossible for us to deal justly with all situations. It is only by having as judiciaries, those who are capable of obeying the written commands, can we even approach justice on earth.

The Shariah laws are fair and just, it is us as humans who fail to enforce them properly and/or misuse them.
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 05:46 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
As per the article, I certainly dont trust the Saudi police as they have arrested and convicted ppl for things such as "Black magic".
The judges sentence people. Not the police.

And while you might not believe in black magic, Muslims do (it involves the jinns/'devils').

Anyway, in this case the five men admitted to the murder, so there shouldn't be a problem.
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Joe98
11-05-2007, 07:02 AM
When people have to have an operation, they are kept unconscious by anaesthetic

Anaesthetic could be used to put people out and then lethal injection to kill them.


=
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Al-Zaara
11-05-2007, 07:24 AM
Astagfirullah. I just don't get it... How you can do such a thing?

I too have mixed feelings about death penalty. Like many said, one of the reasons I too am against it is because you cannot take it back, in many cases you cannot prove 100% guilt.

But by killing them immideately, you'd take away their 'chances to regret' and 'ask forgiveness' from Allah..

That's to me as a Muslim a much more severe punishment than the actual pain you go through under those 2-3 seconds of beheading. And I actually think some deserve it, but again, do the others (who are verdicted with death penalty) deserve it too? How can you know for sure? :hmm:

But in my opinion, I think exceution was the right punishment for what they did, but Allahu Aleem.
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Al-Zaara
But by killing them immideately, you'd take away their 'chances to regret' and 'ask forgiveness' from Allah..
:sl:

Umm... but it was Allah who ordered that the death penalty be the punishment for murder in the first place... :?
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Bittersteel
11-05-2007, 08:04 AM
In my view execution is the correct punishment for the crime.

However, I don't trust Saudie justice and so it might have been somebody else.

And beheading is barbaric. Executon should be by another method.
I am with you about the first two statements.the last I disagree.Beheading seems to be so quick and clean.though hanging isn't a bad option.
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 08:16 AM
Originally Posted by Joe98
However, I don't trust Saudie justice and so it might have been somebody else.
They confessed. ^o)
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Al-Zaara
11-05-2007, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

Umm... but it was Allah who ordered that the death penalty be the punishment for murder in the first place... :?
Aleykum selam,

But what if they judged wrong? I continued with "And I actually think some deserve it, but again, do the others (who are verdicted with death penalty) deserve it too? How can you know for sure?" and with this I meant, what if it was more complicated than just murder?
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 09:01 AM
Well, as long as they judged by Allah's laws then what more can we do?
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Joe98
11-05-2007, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
They confessed. ^o)

In Saudi Arabia it is amazing how many people confess. It must be something in the water there.

-
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Joe98
11-05-2007, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Well, as long as they judged by Allah's laws then what more can we do?
Only Allah can judge by Allah's laws, Man can only judge by man's laws.

-
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Malaikah
11-05-2007, 11:57 AM
And only Joe98 can come up with profound statements with no basis in reality...
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جوري
11-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by Joe98
When people have to have an operation, they are kept unconscious by anaesthetic

Anaesthetic could be used to put people out and then lethal injection to kill them.


=
who is going to pay the anesthesiologists' fees?

http://www.asahq.org/patientEducation.htm

anesthesiologists are medical doctors. might not be in your neck of the woods whatever rustic ground that is.. but they don't go around killing people. it is against the hippocratic oath taken by physicians as to the ethical practice of medicine!
Number one rule
DO NO HARM!
no doctor will violate that first oath in favor of Joe's laws.
get real!
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Keltoi
11-05-2007, 02:27 PM
It is one of those situations where if the suspects did commit such a horrible crime, the death people seems appropriate. It becomes problematic in making a moral judgement here because we simply don't know the facts of the case. Obviously someone killed the child, and whoever did so deserves the death penalty in my opinion, but saying these particular individuals should be executed without any knowledge of who they are and what they did...I will leave that to those who ordered their execution.
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MTAFFI
11-05-2007, 02:33 PM
i say kill them, and not only that but I would say to kill them very slowly, maybe even over the course of a week. To me, to rape a child or kill a child is probably the worst thing that a person could possibly do in this world. My stomach feels sick and I become enraged with hatred and anger when I read about things like this. Look at how many child predators there are in the US, Taiwan, Indonesia, Sri Lanka, and the list goes on, these people should not be free to roam the street after a few years in a minimal security prison. And I dont really care if a few innocent people die for the greater good, it is like the age old question "Could you sacrifice a child to save the rest of the world?" My answer is yes, because think of all the other children you would save... Not only that but the percentage of error in this day in age is slim, extremely slim this wasnt necessarily the case 15 + years ago which is why you hear of these rulings being overturned. These five men deserve to die right along with everyone else like them

edit: This is all assuming that these individuals have evidence brought against them for the crime adn that a jury of their peers have found them guilty beyond a reasonable doubt
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Tania
11-05-2007, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
They confessed. ^o)
You will confess even you don't know who is your mother, if they want too. I read about Gestapo and their techniques of confessions are still used.

I share 100% PurestAmbrosia opinion about justice: "any more than I want to see a man convicted and serve 17 years for a crime he didn't do, one because he was rich enough and famous enough to get away with it, and the other because the man was black enough and fit the profile of people who just wanted to see someone get convicted and who would care any way, one less noisome minority off their streets. "
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Whatsthepoint
11-05-2007, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
anesthesiologists are medical doctors. might not be in your neck of the woods whatever rustic ground that is.. but they don't go around killing people. it is against the hippocratic oath taken by physicians as to the ethical practice of medicine!
Number one rule
DO NO HARM!
no doctor will violate that first oath in favor of Joe's laws.
get real!
Been to Oregon yet?:giggling:;D
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Woodrow
11-05-2007, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Been to Oregon yet?:giggling:;D
are you the person who sent me a gift certificate to the Kevorkian clinic?

Setting Humor aside. You are correct, there are people who wear the name doctor and somehow forget the oath they have taken.
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omar_2133
11-05-2007, 05:16 PM
five Saudi criminals were drunkards
Drunkards? I thought this was Saudi Arabia, the holiest site on Earth, and when drink and alchohol is so expressely forbidden in the Qu'ran, there shouldn't really be access to this type of stuff.
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Woodrow
11-05-2007, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by omar_2133
Drunkards? I thought this was Saudi Arabia, the holiest site on Earth, and when drink and alchohol is so expressely forbidden in the Qu'ran, there shouldn't really be access to this type of stuff.
Although Makkah and Medinah are the 2 holiest cities on earth, the country of Saudi Arabia is little different from much of the world. Shaytan does seem to be working overtime in many parts of Saudi.
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Whatsthepoint
11-05-2007, 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
are you the person who sent me a gift certificate to the Kevorkian clinic?

Setting Humor aside. You are correct, there are people who wear the name doctor and somehow forget the oath they have taken.
Yeah, abortionists for instance...
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جوري
11-05-2007, 05:55 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Been to Oregon yet?:giggling:;D
Oregon is the only state that permits euthanasia, I don't need to go there to be familiar with medical law!
However a doctor has a right to refuse euthanizing a pt. if it goes against his ethics. He may certainly make a referral!
Patients of course are NOT criminals, thus leading me to ask-- is there a valid reason for your giggles?
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Whatsthepoint
11-05-2007, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Oregon is the only state that permits euthanasia, I don't need to go there to be familiar with medical law!
However a doctor has a right to refuse euthanizing a pt. if it goes against his ethics. He may certainly make a referral!
Patients of course are NOT criminals, thus leading me to ask-- is there a valid reason for your giggles?
Originally Posted by you, dear
no doctor will violate that first oath in favor of Joe's laws.
on the other hand...not really.
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Woodrow
11-05-2007, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
on the other hand...not really.
and on the other hand a doctor who intentionaly violates the Hippocratic oath can no longer be considered a Doctor. It takes more than a diploma and a title to justify using the name Doctor and part of that is a sworn promise to abide by the oath.
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جوري
11-05-2007, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
on the other hand...not really.
I am not your 'dear' and indeed no self respecting doctor who honors his oath will euthanize a pt. let alone criminals. That is not the duty of the physician to carry out justice for the state! Go ahead show me how many doctors willingly consciously and freely, killed their patients and didn't serve a term in prison for it outside the state of Orgeon if their scores can be anything but negligible.
If you want to make your own laws along with your awkwardly simple and provincial buddy Joe, either move to Oregon or buy your own Island The rest of the world still hasn't taken leave of its senses!

I am not impressed with the diversion, perhaps we can get back to original topic or make another thread for varous nonsense!
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Whatsthepoint
11-05-2007, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
I am not your 'dear' and indeed no self respecting doctor who honors his oath will euthanize a pt. let alone criminals. That is not the duty of the physician to carry out justice for the state! Go ahead show me how many doctors willingly consciously and freely, killed their patients and didn't serve a term in prison for it outside the state of Orgeon if their scores can be anything but negligible.
If you want to make your own laws along with your awkwardly simple and provincial buddy Joe, either move to Oregon or buy your own Island The rest of the world still hasn't taken leave of its senses!
Hehe, I like the way you always supress everyone who dares to oppose you....:coolious:
Oregon is not the only state that permits euthanasia. It is legalized or decriminalized in the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Albania.
Most recently, a doctor euthanized Piergiorgio Welby and was not prosecuted inspite of euthanasia being illegal in Itally.

I am not impressed with the diversion, perhaps we can get back to original topic or make another thread for varous nonsense!
I agree. I'm sure there's plenty of topics about euthanasia, however I don't think there's one about silam being incompatible with medicine and the Hippocratic oath..
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جوري
11-05-2007, 07:13 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Hehe, I like the way you always supress everyone who dares to oppose you....:coolious:
Glad you enjoy it ......

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint Oregon is not the only state that permits euthanasia. It is legalized or decriminalized in the Netherlands, Belgium, Switzerland and Albania.
Most recently, a doctor euthanized Piergiorgio Welby and was not prosecuted inspite of euthanasia being illegal in Itally.
Your bumpkinly country boy was speaking of America. Using an anesthesiologist (a medical doctor) who makes
AVERAGE SALARY
2006 AVERAGE ANESTHESIOLOGIST SALARY: $309,950
on his/her own accord but now using tax payers money to 'humanely' put to death a criminal, who probably didn't bestow the same courtesy upon his victim, when average folks have to pay around $4000 to that same anesthesiologist say for rib cage compression in the an unfortunate event, that same drunken moron runs them over after having killed a few on the side.
Do you think you are absurd right about now, or do you still want to continue the charade while advertising how on top of modern trends you are?


Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint I agree. I'm sure there's plenty of topics about euthanasia, however I don't think there's one about silam being incompatible with medicine and the Hippocratic oath..
I don't understand what that means, and really don't care too. The ethical medical committe which varies from state to state, doesn't usually heed stupidity when arriving at their decisions and their decisions are meant to satisfy the best interest of the patient! ..
I highly doubt any well respected, well paid anesthesiologist will leave his life style, job satisfaction and salary behind to perform state execution 'humanely' to the liking of a lawless changeling!

Are we done here?


cheers!
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-xRafeenax-
11-05-2007, 07:31 PM
salam
in my opinion i think they shouldnt have executed the killers.I know that what they done was extremely wrong however you can not teach someone not to kill by killing them??!!!?? And the execution probaly only took a few seconds and it was all over the murderers need to be punish for much longer so i think a very strict harsh prison is much better so they can to go through the misery for ever just like the family of the victim!!
Thats just my opinion
salam
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Tania
11-05-2007, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I'm sorry, but your proof that it was an accident it what exactly?:? Are you assuming that she was innocent just because she said she was?

She said it was an accident, the parents of the child deny this, the court found her guilty.

She may or may not be innocent, but we can't just assume she was innocent when we have no proof at all and then say that the Saudi justice system is stuffed up based on our baseless assumption! :-\
Here its the link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-her-care.html
Briefly:
-she had no lawyer during the trial
-she was judge in arabic and she is foreigner
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جوري
11-05-2007, 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by -xRafeenax-
salam
in my opinion i think they shouldnt have executed the killers.I know that what they done was extremely wrong however you can not teach someone not to kill by killing them??!!!?? And the execution probaly only took a few seconds and it was all over the murderers need to be punish for much longer so i think a very strict harsh prison is much better so they can to go through the misery for ever just like the family of the victim!!
Thats just my opinion
salam
:w:
1-It is Islamic law dear sis that the punishment should fit the crime! It is divine justice! Allah, Most High, says: “O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: …” (Al-Baqarah: 178)
2- As for teaching them, will I suppose it is too late, you can't teach something to someone in retrospect!
3-Execution is in and of itself the expiation of the sin, of course contingent on ('tawba' repentance) and true remorse of the defendants!
4- And, If they are not repentant, then surely in death is enough misery--
I don't think we should feed, clothes and put a roof over the head of criminals when some human beings whose only sin was be born poor don't even have that much..


on a personal level... why all this to evade what is lawfully decreed when there is enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt? is it Just to avoid Islamic law? Eveything else is better so long as it isn't Islamic law?!
one wants an anesthesiologists, the other branches off into Oregon's Assisted-Suicide Law, and one more thinks it harsh to murder a murderer..

please somebody come save me-- am I alone in thinking some of our members have gone round the bend? :hmm::mmokay:


:w:
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Idris
11-05-2007, 08:17 PM
salam
in my opinion i think they shouldnt have executed the killers.I know that what they done was extremely wrong however you can not teach someone not to kill by killing them??!!!?? And the execution probaly only took a few seconds and it was all over the murderers need to be punish for much longer so i think a very strict harsh prison is much better so they can to go through the misery for ever just like the family of the victim!!
Thats just my opinion
salam
Sister I don't think you can teach a killer not to kill... best thing to do is to kill them and maybe other would-be killer will be put offand not waste money on keeping them in prison.

Briefly:
-she had no lawyer during the trial
-she was judge in arabic and she is foreigner
Why do you single out "Saudi justice system"? Many other justice systems around the world that do worse, try looking a bit east to a big country called china or attempt a look at your own countries “Justice system”. Don’t waste your time putting out other people’s fire then your own house is on fire!
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snakelegs
11-05-2007, 08:22 PM
i don't care what KSA does with its criminals - it's their country.
if you support the death penalty, beheading is probably more humane than what we do in the west.
messy though.
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Keltoi
11-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
i don't care what KSA does with its criminals - it's their country.
if you support the death penalty, beheading is probably more humane than what we do in the west.
messy though.
I believe the issue with beheading goes beyond simply the pain or lack thereof. Some consider it a desecration of the body. It creates a certain shock value, which I suppose might work to curb crime, but there is just something about decapitation that affects people more so than electric chair or lethal injection. Perhaps it is too personal or something, where simply turning a switch creates a sense of detachment.
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Malaikah
11-06-2007, 12:25 AM
Originally Posted by Tania
Here its the link:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-her-care.html
Briefly:
-she had no lawyer during the trial
-she was judge in arabic and she is foreigner
I've seen that before, and we have no proof she is innocent. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't, but we don't know.

Originally Posted by -xRafeenax-
salam
in my opinion i think they shouldnt have executed the killers.I know that what they done was extremely wrong however you can not teach someone not to kill by killing them??!!!?? And the execution probaly only took a few seconds and it was all over the murderers need to be punish for much longer so i think a very strict harsh prison is much better so they can to go through the misery for ever just like the family of the victim!!
Thats just my opinion
salam
Well, if Allah does not forgive them, the punishment of the grave is far worse than they would ever have received in this life. :blind:
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Tania
11-06-2007, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by Idris
Why do you single out "Saudi justice system"? Many other justice systems around the world that do worse, try looking a bit east to a big country called china or attempt a look at your own countries “Justice system”. Don’t waste your time putting out other people’s fire then your own house is on fire!
I thought this thread its dedicated to the 5 dead people. Thats why i refered to the other case what i know still from saudi.
Concerning my country we don't have death sentence after revolution and before that the people usually died due to the treatment which received in jail, not because of the death sentence. Due to the treatment died a large convicted people from priests in the wrong faith upto students, writers and others who could not keep their mouth closed.

I learned too to keep my mouth because our police its the best. I remember few years ago when in states in the airports everyone was checked for guns, our police found a man with gun in a plane which came from chicago or some town from there. And they didn't have the states technology. The americans were suprised how could this man escape from their check up.

And because we talked about how were killed the sentenced people to
death: that was the shooting. Last people convicted for murder was Ceausescu and his wife.
Reply

Trumble
11-06-2007, 06:49 AM
"Being found guilty", under any justice system, is something that occasionally happens to people who are not guilty. Those who support the death penalty must accept that with the death penalty, innocent people will also die. Try imagining yourself in the place of one of those people in the days, hours and minutes before they are led to whatever form of execution it happens to be.

I'm always amazed so many people who claim to believe in God are so happy to play at being God. They are not qualified for the job.
Reply

Malaikah
11-06-2007, 07:51 AM
We don't 'play' God.

Anyway, Islamic laws are very strict to ensure that no innocent people are punished.
Reply

MTAFFI
11-06-2007, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe the issue with beheading goes beyond simply the pain or lack thereof. Some consider it a desecration of the body. It creates a certain shock value, which I suppose might work to curb crime, but there is just something about decapitation that affects people more so than electric chair or lethal injection. Perhaps it is too personal or something, where simply turning a switch creates a sense of detachment.
have you ever seen someone get the electric chair? I would think it is actually a bit more "shocking" than a beheading, seeing someone literally shake and jerk around making at times a high pitched whistling noise while strapped to a chair with a mouthpeice and a metal helmet.... I know it kinda freaked me out

Personally I think public beheadings would be great, I am sure the predators and killers might think a little harder if they actually had seen someones head get chopped off for being proven guilty of one of these sick crimes.

Personally I think prison and jail should be reserved for drug addicts, prostitutes, possibly small time theives, manslaughter crimes, drunk drivers, etc. But the rapists, murderers and child molesters should have an inescapable sentence of death should they be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.
Reply

جوري
11-06-2007, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
"Being found guilty", under any justice system, is something that occasionally happens to people who are not guilty. Those who support the death penalty must accept that with the death penalty, innocent people will also die. Try imagining yourself in the place of one of those people in the days, hours and minutes before they are led to whatever form of execution it happens to be.

I'm always amazed so many people who claim to believe in God are so happy to play at being God. They are not qualified for the job.
In a just system you don't drag a man to his death is there were 1% doubt...
Ali ibn abbi talib (RA) had his sword stolen, his sword bore his name, yet the judge still ruled in favor of the defendant on the account there were no witnesses to the crime!

You have to understand the finite details of the law before building an argument on a hypothetical! The only people who play God in this situation are the guilty who feel it just to kill, murder, maim, rape even small helpless children, and are assured to rely on a fickle justice system to bail them out, and loons who will conjure up preposterous insane methods to execute them.

I am not going to suddenly think a murderer deserves another chance because joe mama thinks it inhumane to behead.. nor do I think it fair to drag out such trials for 10-20 yrs to exhaust every lowely method to get a criminal out even at the expense of the victim's family and the tax payers money, for human animals who didn't bestow like justice or courtesy upon their victims.

I don't believe in a trial by 12 moronic under-educated jurors as is in the American justice system. I have been there and I know exactly what sort of morons they pick for these trials. The system should be established upon justice, not what you can get away with because you've found a loop hole, or because you manipulated simple-minded folks while speaking in the gleefully macaronic English so that everything said is quite over their head!

No it isn't playing God, it is enforcing justice in a undisciplined and unruly world!


cheers!
Reply

omar_2133
11-06-2007, 05:01 PM
Salam,

My position on this has always been to reserve the death penalty for truly sickening and horrifying acts of violence, such as torture, violent and barbaric murder, and sexual assault, and the story of a child being [I]gang-raped[I] by [[four men]], truly goes beyond the line of forgivability, and reoffenders of the next lower level crime of murder and rape, and double reoffenders, for people aged 25+ of petty crime.

But in my opinion, for comparatively lower-level crimes, such as murder and rape, I belive that the guilty should be given a jail sentence, consisting of both punishment and then rehabilitation.

The first period of the sentence involving punishment would consist of hard labour, and the second period of rehabilitation, should consist of a personal, religious and spiritual councelling, by trained psycho-therapists and Imams, with the mind and character of the criminal being fundamentally reformed, and able to be let reintegrated back in society.

However, in order to fund the costs of providing this "treatment" and the construction of the jail, the reformed criminal must give something back to society, whether it be monetary, for example contributing a higher amount of income tax, or otherwise, for example community or government work.

The same would apply to criminals alleged of lower level crime, however the "tax" or debt, would be less. But if they reoffend, then this will increase again to the level of the higher level crime, and of course if they reoffend even after that, then providing they are of the right age, they will be eligible for the death penalty.

Hopefully, I think this will just about balance all factors including humanity, the neccessity of punishment and deterrent, and the cost. Just incase, you ask, I', not a lawyer or anything, but I just thought of this justice system out of my head.
Reply

wilberhum
11-06-2007, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
We don't 'play' God.

Anyway, Islamic laws are very strict to ensure that no innocent people are punished.
What a dream. :? Want to get back to reality? :mmokay:

The results of any system ran by humans is flawed.
:hiding:
Reply

IceQueen~
11-06-2007, 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
The results of any system ran by humans is flawed.
:hiding:
That's why on the Day of Judgement, God does HIS Justice:)
Reply

wilberhum
11-06-2007, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by IceQueen~
That's why on the Day of Judgement, God does HIS Justice:)
Thanks. :shade:
I'm glad you agree with what I said. :peace:
Reply

Isambard
11-07-2007, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
We don't 'play' God.

Anyway, Islamic laws are very strict to ensure that no innocent people are punished.
Under the Islamic system, you can be punished for things that dont exist ie. Black magic.

Apperently it isnt strict enough.
Reply

Malaikah
11-07-2007, 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
What a dream. :? Want to get back to reality? :mmokay:

The results of any system ran by humans is flawed.
:hiding:
I am in reality... apparently you aren't though, because my post never said that mistakes will never happen, just that Islamic law is designed to minimise the chance of mistakes.

Originally Posted by Isambard
Under the Islamic system, you can be punished for things that dont exist ie. Black magic.

Apperently it isnt strict enough.
Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Reply

جوري
11-07-2007, 03:18 AM
he can even read about it in his favorite source for credible information..

www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_magic

Maybe peter gilmore can teach him a trick or two..


cheers!
Reply

Tania
11-07-2007, 03:25 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Under the Islamic system, you can be punished for things that dont exist ie. Black magic.

Apperently it isnt strict enough.
Inquisition did the same. They burned the people found guilty for spreading the magic but only after they were tortured. I don't believe in magic.
Reply

Isambard
11-07-2007, 04:27 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I am in reality... apparently you aren't though, because my post never said that mistakes will never happen, just that Islamic law is designed to minimise the chance of mistakes.



Just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
No, it doesnt exist period. There is no proof of it and alot of the allegations of 'magic' are just people not understanding what an Illusion is.

If under an Islamic sysmtem you have ppl admitting to stuff that doesnt exist, then there is obviously something very wrong with the so called justice system.
Reply

Isambard
11-07-2007, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Tania
Inquisition did the same. They burned the people found guilty for spreading the magic but only after they were tortured. I don't believe in magic.
Exactly. Might as well bring back the Inquisition or the Witch Trials. Follows a similar logic.
Reply

Malaikah
11-07-2007, 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
No, it doesnt exist period. There is no proof of it and alot of the allegations of 'magic' are just people not understanding what an Illusion is.
It has nothing to do with illusions. Black magic in Islam isn't about the illusions magicians get up to. It involved demons possessing people and what not. Not tricks!

Technically it isn't even magic because the demons are facilitating it and they aren't doing anything beyond their own capacity.

Anyway, you don't even believe in God, so I see no point in trying to convince you of anything else.
Reply

Isambard
11-07-2007, 05:01 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
It has nothing to do with illusions. Black magic in Islam isn't about the illusions magicians get up to. It involved demons possessing people and what not. Not tricks!

Technically it isn't even magic because the demons are facilitating it and they aren't doing anything beyond their own capacity.

Anyway, you don't even believe in God, so I see no point in trying to convince you of anything else.
You are trying to convince me that Shariah is more just that regular Western law. So by defacto you would have to convince me that black magic exists else your arguement immidiately falls apart as you can make ppl confess to that which doesnt exist. Thereby making Shariah a repeat of the Witch trials and damaging any credibility of the Saudi system of justice.

So, convince me
Reply

Malaikah
11-07-2007, 05:10 AM
The only way I can convince you is by convincing you that Islam is the true religion. And I have neither the experience nor skills to do such a thing.

We are getting off-topic anyway.
Reply

muthenna
11-07-2007, 07:19 AM
As for atheists theyre lost, death penalty is prescribed by Allah and his messenger Muhamed pbuh, thats all we need, Allah didnt say christians are right or democracy, or atheists, Allah obliged us to follow his instructions, thats final i guess,
As for Magic it exists, as shown clearly in quran and hadith, of course if you dont believe in god you wont believe in jinn (maybe atheists would believe in aliens more)
Saudi has bad things but it has good things in their law too
Reply

Trumble
11-07-2007, 08:03 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
In a just system you don't drag a man to his death is there were 1% doubt...
1% means one in a hundred might be innocent. A 0.1% doubt means one in a thousand might be innocent. In neither case can the figure be measured.

You have to understand the finite details of the law before building an argument on a hypothetical!
An understanding of any particular system is unnecessary when a conclusive argument embraces all. There have been more than enough miscarriages of justice across all legal systems to demonstrate that innocent people can be wrongly convicted under all of them. To think any system, 'Islamic' or otherwise is different is deluded. For any legal system, even if the legislature were divine, the judiciary and executive are not. Where there are people, there is the possibility of error, not to mention bloodlust, corruption. And indeed politics.

If you condemn the guilty so death sooner or later you also condemn the innocent. Many people argue for the death penalty while accepting that obvious fact, but it is complete foolishness to deny it. If you defend the death penalty you must also be brave enough to defend all its potential consequences.

am not going to suddenly think a murderer deserves another chance because joe mama thinks it inhumane to behead..
Although I could easily present one, the argument I posted has nothing to do with mercy or being 'humane'. It is concerned solely with the fallibility of any justice system.


No it isn't playing God, it is enforcing justice in a undisciplined and unruly world!
Such enforcement of justice can only be necessary in a Godless world. As IceQueen said,

That's why on the Day of Judgement, God does HIS Justice
Reply

guyabano
11-07-2007, 08:51 AM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
you speak as if you were a criminal?
I wouldn't want to feed a criminal and put a roof on his head while there are children literally starving to death..
I would also say, those who are guilty should be 'whiped out' . There is no need for them in society and they just cost huge amounts of money.

But then again, there are those psychopathics, who just admit crimes to protect the real guilty person. That makes it complicated again...
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Malaikah
11-07-2007, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
But then again, there are those psychopathics, who just admit crimes to protect the real guilty person. That makes it complicated again...
Wow, that is creepy. Well, at least God knows what they are doing and will punish them accordingly if He sees fit.
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Keltoi
11-07-2007, 12:27 PM
To me, the thought of spending the rest of my life in prison is more disturbing than the thought of death.
Reply

Idris
11-07-2007, 01:47 PM
To me, the thought of spending the rest of my life in prison is more disturbing than the thought of death.
Nevertheless, most of the prisons are so full. I do not know concerning the US but here in the UK the prison are so full that killers and sex offenders are being let out early!

However, do something like tax evasion you’re going in for a loooooong time.
Sweet sweet justice.
Reply

wilberhum
11-07-2007, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
I am in reality... apparently you aren't though, because my post never said that mistakes will never happen, just that Islamic law is designed to minimise the chance of mistakes.
I think you made yourself quite clear when you said
Islamic laws are very strict to ensure that no innocent people are punished.
Reply

wilberhum
11-07-2007, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by muthenna
As for atheists theyre lost, death penalty is prescribed by Allah and his messenger Muhamed pbuh, thats all we need, Allah didnt say christians are right or democracy, or atheists, Allah obliged us to follow his instructions, thats final i guess,
As for Magic it exists, as shown clearly in quran and hadith, of course if you dont believe in god you wont believe in jinn (maybe atheists would believe in aliens more)
Saudi has bad things but it has good things in their law too
Is that justification for killing people because they don't believe in god?
Reply

جوري
11-07-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
1% means one in a hundred might be innocent. A 0.1% doubt means one in a thousand might be innocent. In neither case can the figure be measured.
Is everyone in the city a criminal or are we just getting lost in imaginary numbers?



An understanding of any particular system is unnecessary when a conclusive argument embraces all. There have been more than enough miscarriages of justice across all legal systems to demonstrate that innocent people can be wrongly convicted under all of them. To think any system, 'Islamic' or otherwise is different is deluded. For any legal system, even if the legislature were divine, the judiciary and executive are not. Where there are people, there is the possibility of error, not to mention bloodlust, corruption. And indeed politics.
I'll take my chances then putting thousands of murderers (by your numbers) off the streets -- your analogy if you'll forgive me, reminds me of the promiscuous who don't wish to use prophylactics because of the 1% chance it might fail, yet they endanger themselves and put hundrerds of others at risk along with them because of a foolish notion!

If you condemn the guilty so death sooner or later you also condemn the innocent. Many people argue for the death penalty while accepting that obvious fact, but it is complete foolishness to deny it. If you defend the death penalty you must also be brave enough to defend all its potential consequences.
I am not the judge nor the executioner, if I were I'd make sure I have no reasonable doubt so that when I meet with my maker, I can have a clean conscious..



Although I could easily present one, the argument I posted has nothing to do with mercy or being 'humane'. It is concerned solely with the fallibility of any justice system.
be that as it may, I felt it warrented for our purposes to take it the extra mile!



Such enforcement of justice can only be necessary in a Godless world. As IceQueen said,
I thought from where you are standing, and other atheists are standing it is?


just to make to cover all grounds with this post.. and no this doesn't concern you dear trumble--
Many parts of the world perform satanic rituals (America has a church of satan) dark voodoo or hoodoo in the south and New orleans.. pls don't quote me where 'standard voodoo' is an innocent religion because a great deal of dark rituals are being practiced.. thus just because you don't believe in it, doesn't mean people out their don't perform it, are members of it or that it exists (feel free to stick your head in the sand).. Whether something comes of their hoodoo or not is inconsequential.. it is the intent of doing harm and going about it, that is reprehensible!

New Orleans Voodoo, which is a local variant of hoodoo, is a mystery. Some speculate that it was used as a means of self defense to intimidate superstitious slave owners[citation needed]. This practice is not unique to New Orleans voodoo, however, and has as much basis in European-based magical devices such as the poppet and the nkisi or bocio of West and Central Africa.

These are in fact power objects, what in Haiti would be referred to as pwen, rather than magical surrogates for an intended target of sorcery whether for boon or for bane
look it up in your favorite news source (wikipedia)

cheers!
Reply

Trumble
11-07-2007, 07:36 PM
Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Is everyone in the city a criminal or are we just getting lost in imaginary numbers?
Where you may personally be getting lost is your problem. My statement was quite straightforward and the 1% was your number.

I'll take my chances then putting thousands of murderers (by your numbers) off the streets -- your analogy if you'll forgive me, reminds me of the promiscuous who don't wish to use prophylactics because of the 1% chance it might fail, yet they endanger themselves and put hundrerds of others at risk along with them because of a foolish notion!
Gibberish. Across the world all convicted murderers are indeed "taken off the streets". Most are put into prison (often with no possibility of parole) and are not executed. Should it later (sometimes many years later) transpire that they were in fact innocent, they are still around to apologise to.

I am not the judge nor the executioner, if I were I'd make sure I have no reasonable doubt so that when I meet with my maker, I can have a clean conscious..
If you support the death penalty both judge and executioner are your agents and you are responsible for their actions. Unless you can both define "reasonable" and quantify the numbers of innocent people likely to fall victim to mistaken execution outside it, you are deluding yourself. Can you? What is "reasonable" doubt? Nobody should be convicted without that, let alone executed - yet people still are.

I thought from where you are standing, and other atheists are standing it is?
It is. I was considering your perspective.
Reply

جوري
11-07-2007, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
Where you may personally be getting lost is your problem. My statement was quite straightforward and the 1% was your number.
sorry-- next time I'll make the odds smaller so we are not lost in semantics!



Gibberish. Across the world all convicted murderers are indeed "taken off the streets". Most are put into prison (often with no possibility of parole) and are not executed. Should it later (sometimes many years later) transpire that they were in fact innocent, they are still around to apologise to.
And I have already stated my convictions as a tax payer. Punishment should fit the crime, I rather think it an utter waste to feed, clothe, put a roof over the head of criminals 'for life', plus provide them with health care, when even ordinary citizens don't have that much--


If you support the death penalty both judge and executioner are your agents and you are responsible for their actions. Unless you can both define "reasonable" and quantify the numbers of innocent people likely to fall victim to mistaken execution outside it, you are deluding yourself. Can you? What is "reasonable" doubt? Nobody should be convicted without that, let alone executed - yet people still are.
What is reasonable makes itself apparent in the individual case.. Again I can't build a case on a 'hypothetical murder' to please you in an argument.. there are many things that contribute to the final ruling.. one main factor is expert opinion.. certainly a state forensic pathologist could present the case in very like fashion to how it happened.. there is DNA evidence, there is eye witness... the list goes on and one. And again this isn't the American justice system, where 12 morons sit and judge when they couldn't distinguish a cucumber from a melon, or the system that throws people into gitmo without trial.
We are talking God's law. Might not mean much to you, but to those who are God fearing it means a heck of a lot!


It is. I was considering your perspective.
You haven't considered it well!

cheers!
Reply

Tania
11-08-2007, 04:36 AM
I can't give data about my country because we don't have death penalities but i found related to Saudi this facts :-[ (from Amnesty International)

*In Saudi Arabia, people have been taken from their prison cells and executed without knowing that a death sentence has been passed against them. Others have been tried and sentenced to death in a language they didn’t speak or read.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engACT500092006

*The death penalty is frequently imposed following summary and secret trials. None of those executed has had access to a lawyer. Some have been convicted solely on the basis of "confessions" extracted by torture.
Source: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/...issues/dp.html

*24.10.2007: Executed in Najran because of his big heart :( :
He was originally sentenced to 10 years' imprisonment for helping a man escape from prison, but his sentence was said to have been changed unexpectedly to death, possibly following a secret appeal process.
Source: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index...pen&of=ENG-392

Reading certain posts i understand the sisters are defending the religious justice. But my question would be is this applied in Saudi or its something changed by authorities :?
Reply

Cognescenti
11-08-2007, 05:50 AM
I wouldn't trust a "confession" from a prisoner in a Saudi jail. Still, I will allow they might have got it right.

Fortunately, this kind of crime wouldn't happen in Iran because, according to Ahmedinajad, they "don't have that element there" :giggling:
Reply

Tania
11-08-2007, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I wouldn't trust a "confession" from a prisoner in a Saudi jail. Still, I will allow they might have got it right.

Fortunately, this kind of crime wouldn't happen in Iran because, according to Ahmedinajad, they "don't have that element there" :giggling:
Element would be the confession :? :-[
Reply

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