Snakelegs gets her name in another thread! pt 1

[YusufNoor]

Originally posted by Snakelegs i can't comment on what jesus taught them, but i think you are right - that the trinity was invented long after his death. as a jew, he would've found the concept blasphemous and quite foreign.
and you have a point in the 2nd statement. in fact, this is one thing that makes the tanakh quite interesting - the way the people are portrayed - they are anything but loveable! and people do not portray themselves so unfavourably. yes, they were a rather dreadful bunch! ;D
but it makes you wonder - if they altered the tanakh, why didn't they portray themselves in a better light obedient and chaste, pious and understanding, virtuous, long suffering and full of good deeds?

Greetings Snakelegs,

You have often put this to pen, so I thought I’d try to give you an understanding of just why that is!

The first part is that the Tanakh as we know it today was completed by the team of Ezra and Nehemiah. They wrote after the return of the Jews from Babylon. In fact, Ezra was “in charge” of the Jews and most of the Sunnah that the Jews follow today come from him and NOT Moses. That is one reason why the Qur’an says that Jews call Ezra the Son of God. See:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=577&o=2080045
This^ is a Jewish site as I prefer to use links posted by them to refute their own ideas)

Now, at this time the Jews had almost been eradicated from the face of the earth! If, they are God’s “chosen people” then how do you explain this? How did they lose God’s protection if they were under His protection?

II Kings Ch. 23 actually gives us the answer, as does Nehemiah Ch. 9. In short, the violated all of Gods laws, killed the prophets and built idols and alters to pagan gods in and around the Temple in Jerusalem. IF they covered those things up, then it would look like they had no protection at all and never had God’s protection! Catch 22!

Deuteronomy provides a list of Blessings and Curses that were fulfilled in the destruction of the Jewish kingdom, but who wrote that? Knowing that there were different authors from different area provides us with some clues as to why additional negative stuff was written.

I really enjoyed:
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl...d_i=0671631616

and highly recommend that you read it!

Look at this chart in the link below and after you’ve digested it, I’ll add some more, Insha’ Allah!

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jepd.html

Documentary Hypothesis

Literary analysis shows that the Pentateuch was not written by one person. Multiple strands of tradition were woven together to produce the Torah.
The view that is persuasive to most of the critical scholars of the Pentateuch is called the Documentary Hypothesis, or the Graf-Wellhausen Hypothesis, after the names of the 19th-century scholars who put it in its classic form.
Briefly stated, the Documentary Hypothesis sees the Torah as having been composed by a series of editors out of four major strands of literary traditions. These traditions are known as J, E, D, and P. We can diagram their relationships as follows.

J (the Jahwist or Jerusalem source) uses the Tetragrammaton as God's name. This source's interests indicate it was active in the southern Kingdom of Judah in the time of the divided Kingdom. J is responsible for most of Genesis.

E (the Elohist or Ephraimitic source) uses Elohim ("God") for the divine name until Exodus 3-6, where the Tetragrammaton is revealed to Moses and to Israel. This source seems to have lived in the northern Kingdom of Israel during the divided Kingdom. E wrote the Aqedah story and other parts of Genesis, and much of Exodus and Numbers.

J and E were joined fairly early, apparently after the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE. It is often difficult to separate J and E stories that have merged. according to REF, done by Jeremiah or his scribe Baruch.

D (the Deuteronomist) wrote almost all of Deuteronomy (and probably also Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings). Scholars often associate Deuteronomy with the book found by King Josiah in 622 BCE (see 2 Kings 22). according to REF, done by Jeremiah's scribe Baruch.

P (the Priestly source) provided the first chapter of Genesis; the book of Leviticus; and other sections with genealogical information, the priesthood, and worship. According to Wellhausen, P was the latest source and the priestly editors put the Torah in its final form sometime after 539 BCE. Recent scholars (for example, James Milgrom) are more likely to see P as containing pre-exilic material.

Contemporary critical scholars disagree with Wellhausen and with one another on details and on whether D or P was added last. But they agree that the general approach of the Documentary Hypothesis best explains the doublets, contradictions, differences in terminology and theology, and the geographical and historical interests that we find in various parts of the Torah.

For further information about the Documentary Hypothesis and the reasons that scholars accept it, consult the article "Torah (Pentateuch)" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.


Sources
· Friedman, "Torah (Pentateuch)" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.
· W. Gunther Plaut, ed., The Torah: A Modern Commentary (New York: Union of American Hebrew Congregations, 1981).
· Lawrence Boadt, Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction (New York: Paulist Press, 1984).

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

Before we look at where we can find evidence of “where” the Tanakh might have been changed, let’s look at “ they were a rather dreadful bunch! but it makes you wondered they altered the Tanakh, why didn't they portray themselves in a better light obedient and chaste, pious and understanding, virtuous, long suffering and full of good deeds?"

So let’s see just how dreadful, they really are. This excerpt is taking from Nehemiah, which, according to scholars is really part 2 of the Book of Ezra. For those that haven’t checked the link, here is an additional tidbit on the power that Ezra wields in Jewish worship:

Who were the "Anshei Knesset Hagedolah"; "Men of the Great Assembly"?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus

They were a group of 120 sages, amongst them several prophets, headed by Ezra the Scribe. Among the more prominent among them were: Mordechai of the Purim story, and Daniel, as in Daniel in the lion’s den. (Others included Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Zerubavel, Nehemiah son of Chachalayah, Chananiah, Mishael and Azaryah.) Shimon Hatzadik was the last of the Great Assembly.

Ezra established this Great Assembly in Israel shortly after the beginning of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (which began with the completion of the Second Temple in 349 BCE).

They instituted such many basic Jewish practices as the recitation of Kiddush on the Sabbath, Havdallah after the Sabbath, prayer three times a day, the Amidah prayer, and recitation of blessings before eating.

It is said that this “assembly” lasted about 200 years but their structuring of Jewish life is still intact to this very day.
Source:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=591&o=539


In order to paint a picture of just how disobedient the Jews were without being labeled as anti-Jewish, it makes sense to use their own Scriptures. I had originally intended to start with the writings of Jeremiah/Baruch, but I was rather astounded and the pithiness and the total picture that was given to us in so few words. The following is an excerpt from “Levites Song of Praise”, taken from Mesorah Publication’s The Stone Edition of the Tanakh. Of course, this is a Jewish Publication. We pick it up at the conquest of Canaan:

Nehemiah 9:24

24) The children [of Israel] came and took possession of the land, and YOU subdued inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, before them, and delivered them into their hand, along with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased.
25) They captured fortified cities and a fertile land; they took possession of houses filled with every good thing, chiseled cisterns, vineyards and olive trees, and abundant fruit trees; so they ate and became satiated and fattened and took delight in YOUR great bounty.

26) Then they became recalcitrant and rebelled against YOU, casting YOUR Torah behind their backs. They killed YOUR Prophets who had warned them in order to make them return to YOU, and they committed great provocations. 27) So YOU delivered them into the hands of their enemies and YOU afflicted them. But at the time of their affliction they would cry out to YOU and YOU would hear them from Heaven; and in YOUR abundant compassion YOU would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies.
28) But when it would ease for them they would revert to doing evil before YOU, so YOU would abandon them into the hands of their enemies, and would oppress them. They would once again cry out to YOU, and YOU would hear from Heaven and in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times.
29) YOU warned them, to return to YOUR Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to YOUR commandments and transgressed through YOUR laws, which man should do in order that he may live through them. They turned a rebellious shoulder away and stiffened their necks and did not listen.
30) Yet YOU extended {grace} to them for many years, and YOU warned them by YOUR spirit, through the hand of YOUR Prophets, but they did not give ear; so you delivered them into the hands of the people of the lands.
31) In YOUR abundant compassion YOU did not annihilate them and YOU did not abandon them, for YOU are A Gracious and Compassionate God.

so what do learn by these verses?

24) The children [of Israel] came and took possession of the land, and YOU subdued inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, before them, and delivered them into their hand, along with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased.
25) They captured fortified cities and a fertile land; they took possession of houses filled with every good thing, chiseled cisterns, vineyards and olive trees, and abundant fruit trees; so they ate and became satiated and fattened and took delight in YOUR great bounty.

here we are told that Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala "delivered the land of the Canaanites into the hands of the Israelis and they became "satiated and fattened." so what happened next?

26) Then they became recalcitrant and rebelled against YOU, casting YOUR Torah behind their backs. They killed YOUR Prophets who had warned them in order to make them return to YOU, and they committed great provocations.

so now they rebelled against Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala, and started to ignore the Torah, His Laws. they also "killed Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Prophets! Nauoothu Billah! why did they kill them? because they were sent to warn them to return to Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala. They also committed other "great provocations"!

27) So YOU delivered them into the hands of their enemies and YOU afflicted them. But at the time of their affliction they would cry out to YOU and YOU would hear them from Heaven; and in YOUR abundant compassion YOU would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies.

as a result of their behavior, Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala let their enemies overtake them. as they now became the oppressed, Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala would listen to their prayer and then would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies. i was really struck by the use of the term "saviors" here, something to dwell upon.

28) But when it would ease for them they would revert to doing evil before YOU, so YOU would abandon them into the hands of their enemies, and would oppress them. They would once again cry out to YOU, and YOU would hear from Heaven and in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times.

so...Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala saves them and then they would revert to doing evil! SubhanAllah! then Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala would abandon them and save them again. did this happen just once or twice? NO, we are told: in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times! just to remind you in case you forgot or you missed it: numerous times!

29) YOU warned them, to return to YOUR Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to YOUR commandments and transgressed through YOUR laws, which man should do in order that he may live through them. They turned a rebellious shoulder away and stiffened their necks and did not listen.

again we are told of their rebellious nature, but we are also told some great advice, namely we obey Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Laws in order:that [we] may live through them!

30) Yet YOU extended {grace} to them for many years, and YOU warned them by YOUR spirit, through the hand of YOUR Prophets, but they did not give ear; so you delivered them into the hands of the people of the lands.

once again we are told about Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Grace, notice the verse mentions that Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's "Spirit" warns them through the hands of the Prophets!

31) In YOUR abundant compassion YOU did not annihilate them and YOU did not abandon them, for YOU are A Gracious and Compassionate God.

how wonderful is it that although we learn just how much the "Jews" angered Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala, we are told over and over again in these SEVEN VERSES of His Abundant Compassion!

I will try in the near future, Insha' Allah, to show you evidence in the Tanakh itself that the Torah is NOT in it's original form!

:w:

[snakelegs]

Greetings Snakelegs,

You have often put this to pen, so I thought I’d try to give you an understanding of just why that is!

The first part is that the Tanakh as we know it today was completed by the team of Ezra and Nehemiah. They wrote after the return of the Jews from Babylon. In fact, Ezra was “in charge” of the Jews and most of the Sunnah that the Jews follow today come from him and NOT Moses. That is one reason why the Qur’an says that Jews call Ezra the Son of God. See:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=577&o=2080045
This^ is a Jewish site as I prefer to use links posted by them to refute their own ideas)

Now, at this time the Jews had almost been eradicated from the face of the earth! If, they are God’s “chosen people” then how do you explain this? How did they lose God’s protection if they were under His protection?

II Kings Ch. 23 actually gives us the answer, as does Nehemiah Ch. 9. In short, the violated all of Gods laws, killed the prophets and built idols and alters to pagan gods in and around the Temple in Jerusalem. IF they covered those things up, then it would look like they had no protection at all and never had God’s protection! Catch 22!

Deuteronomy provides a list of Blessings and Curses that were fulfilled in the destruction of the Jewish kingdom, but who wrote that? Knowing that there were different authors from different area provides us with some clues as to why additional negative stuff was written.

I really enjoyed:
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Wrote-Bibl...d_i=0671631616

and highly recommend that you read it!

Look at this chart in the link below and after you’ve digested it, I’ll add some more, Insha’ Allah!

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/rs/2/Judaism/jepd.html

Documentary Hypothesis

Literary analysis shows that the Pentateuch was not written by one person. Multiple strands of tradition were woven together to produce the Torah.
The view that is persuasive to most of the critical scholars of the Pentateuch is called the Documentary Hypothesis, or the Graf-Wellhausen Hypothesis, after the names of the 19th-century scholars who put it in its classic form.
Briefly stated, the Documentary Hypothesis sees the Torah as having been composed by a series of editors out of four major strands of literary traditions. These traditions are known as J, E, D, and P. We can diagram their relationships as follows.

J (the Jahwist or Jerusalem source) uses the Tetragrammaton as God's name. This source's interests indicate it was active in the southern Kingdom of Judah in the time of the divided Kingdom. J is responsible for most of Genesis.

E (the Elohist or Ephraimitic source) uses Elohim ("God") for the divine name until Exodus 3-6, where the Tetragrammaton is revealed to Moses and to Israel. This source seems to have lived in the northern Kingdom of Israel during the divided Kingdom. E wrote the Aqedah story and other parts of Genesis, and much of Exodus and Numbers.

J and E were joined fairly early, apparently after the fall of the Northern Kingdom in 722 BCE. It is often difficult to separate J and E stories that have merged. according to REF, done by Jeremiah or his scribe Baruch.

D (the Deuteronomist) wrote almost all of Deuteronomy (and probably also Joshua, Judges, Samuel, and Kings). Scholars often associate Deuteronomy with the book found by King Josiah in 622 BCE (see 2 Kings 22). according to REF, done by Jeremiah's scribe Baruch.

P (the Priestly source) provided the first chapter of Genesis; the book of Leviticus; and other sections with genealogical information, the priesthood, and worship. According to Wellhausen, P was the latest source and the priestly editors put the Torah in its final form sometime after 539 BCE. Recent scholars (for example, James Milgrom) are more likely to see P as containing pre-exilic material.

Contemporary critical scholars disagree with Wellhausen and with one another on details and on whether D or P was added last. But they agree that the general approach of the Documentary Hypothesis best explains the doublets, contradictions, differences in terminology and theology, and the geographical and historical interests that we find in various parts of the Torah.

For further information about the Documentary Hypothesis and the reasons that scholars accept it, consult the article "Torah (Pentateuch)" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.


Sources
· Friedman, "Torah (Pentateuch)" in the Anchor Bible Dictionary.
· W. Gunther Plaut, ed., The Torah: A Modern Commentary (New York: Union of American Hebrew Congregations, 1981).
· Lawrence Boadt, Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction (New York: Paulist Press, 1984).

you have provided a simple and obvious answer to my question. i had never really thought it through before. but yes, of course - due to the wretched condition the jews found themselves in, it was obvious that something was very wrong and that if the jews had been following the torah, god would never have allowed this to happen to them.
thanks!
ezra the scribe is extremely important - he established the basis for the synagogue - a place and structure for worship, now that the temple was destroyed. he is not called "son of god" by jews.
i haven't read the book you mentioned but i have read many theories similar to the ones you mention about the tanakh being written by different writers at different times, by analyzing the writing itself - these scholars say there are very distinctive differences in writing styles. i have read hypotheses either identical to the one on the link you gave, or very similar to it. even some jewish scholars say this. though i think the orthodox position is that the torah is from god. i am not likely to read a book on the subject because my interest is not that great. i know from previous posts of yours that you have studied this stuff in some depth. i have not - and what little studying i have done was so long ago as to be largely in crumbles in various corners of my brain. i have read the tanakh but again it was many years ago. (haven't read the NT)
many muslims also blame the sorry state the ummah is in today on themselves for falling short in obeying god.
from my view, both the jews and the muslims could be right.
thanks again - you have cleared up that little mystery quite nicely.
i will have to get back to you on your second post and post my comments or questions, if any.

[snakelegs]

:sl:

Before we look at where we can find evidence of “where” the Tanakh might have been changed, let’s look at “ they were a rather dreadful bunch! but it makes you wondered they altered the Tanakh, why didn't they portray themselves in a better light obedient and chaste, pious and understanding, virtuous, long suffering and full of good deeds?"

So let’s see just how dreadful, they really are. This excerpt is taking from Nehemiah, which, according to scholars is really part 2 of the Book of Ezra. For those that haven’t checked the link, here is an additional tidbit on the power that Ezra wields in Jewish worship:

Who were the "Anshei Knesset Hagedolah"; "Men of the Great Assembly"?
by Rabbi Yossi Marcus

They were a group of 120 sages, amongst them several prophets, headed by Ezra the Scribe. Among the more prominent among them were: Mordechai of the Purim story, and Daniel, as in Daniel in the lion’s den. (Others included Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Zerubavel, Nehemiah son of Chachalayah, Chananiah, Mishael and Azaryah.) Shimon Hatzadik was the last of the Great Assembly.

Ezra established this Great Assembly in Israel shortly after the beginning of the Second Jewish Commonwealth (which began with the completion of the Second Temple in 349 BCE).

They instituted such many basic Jewish practices as the recitation of Kiddush on the Sabbath, Havdallah after the Sabbath, prayer three times a day, the Amidah prayer, and recitation of blessings before eating.

It is said that this “assembly” lasted about 200 years but their structuring of Jewish life is still intact to this very day.
Source:

http://www.askmoses.com/article.html?h=591&o=539


In order to paint a picture of just how disobedient the Jews were without being labeled as anti-Jewish, it makes sense to use their own Scriptures. I had originally intended to start with the writings of Jeremiah/Baruch, but I was rather astounded and the pithiness and the total picture that was given to us in so few words. The following is an excerpt from “Levites Song of Praise”, taken from Mesorah Publication’s The Stone Edition of the Tanakh. Of course, this is a Jewish Publication. We pick it up at the conquest of Canaan:

Nehemiah 9:24

24) The children [of Israel] came and took possession of the land, and YOU subdued inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, before them, and delivered them into their hand, along with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased.
25) They captured fortified cities and a fertile land; they took possession of houses filled with every good thing, chiseled cisterns, vineyards and olive trees, and abundant fruit trees; so they ate and became satiated and fattened and took delight in YOUR great bounty.

26) Then they became recalcitrant and rebelled against YOU, casting YOUR Torah behind their backs. They killed YOUR Prophets who had warned them in order to make them return to YOU, and they committed great provocations. 27) So YOU delivered them into the hands of their enemies and YOU afflicted them. But at the time of their affliction they would cry out to YOU and YOU would hear them from Heaven; and in YOUR abundant compassion YOU would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies.
28) But when it would ease for them they would revert to doing evil before YOU, so YOU would abandon them into the hands of their enemies, and would oppress them. They would once again cry out to YOU, and YOU would hear from Heaven and in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times.
29) YOU warned them, to return to YOUR Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to YOUR commandments and transgressed through YOUR laws, which man should do in order that he may live through them. They turned a rebellious shoulder away and stiffened their necks and did not listen.
30) Yet YOU extended {grace} to them for many years, and YOU warned them by YOUR spirit, through the hand of YOUR Prophets, but they did not give ear; so you delivered them into the hands of the people of the lands.
31) In YOUR abundant compassion YOU did not annihilate them and YOU did not abandon them, for YOU are A Gracious and Compassionate God.

so what do learn by these verses?

24) The children [of Israel] came and took possession of the land, and YOU subdued inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, before them, and delivered them into their hand, along with their kings and the peoples of the land, to do with them as they pleased.
25) They captured fortified cities and a fertile land; they took possession of houses filled with every good thing, chiseled cisterns, vineyards and olive trees, and abundant fruit trees; so they ate and became satiated and fattened and took delight in YOUR great bounty.

here we are told that Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala "delivered the land of the Canaanites into the hands of the Israelis and they became "satiated and fattened." so what happened next?

26) Then they became recalcitrant and rebelled against YOU, casting YOUR Torah behind their backs. They killed YOUR Prophets who had warned them in order to make them return to YOU, and they committed great provocations.

so now they rebelled against Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala, and started to ignore the Torah, His Laws. they also "killed Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Prophets! Nauoothu Billah! why did they kill them? because they were sent to warn them to return to Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala. They also committed other "great provocations"!

27) So YOU delivered them into the hands of their enemies and YOU afflicted them. But at the time of their affliction they would cry out to YOU and YOU would hear them from Heaven; and in YOUR abundant compassion YOU would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies.

as a result of their behavior, Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala let their enemies overtake them. as they now became the oppressed, Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala would listen to their prayer and then would send them saviors who would save them from the hand of their enemies. i was really struck by the use of the term "saviors" here, something to dwell upon.

28) But when it would ease for them they would revert to doing evil before YOU, so YOU would abandon them into the hands of their enemies, and would oppress them. They would once again cry out to YOU, and YOU would hear from Heaven and in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times.

so...Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala saves them and then they would revert to doing evil! SubhanAllah! then Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala would abandon them and save them again. did this happen just once or twice? NO, we are told: in YOUR compassion YOU would rescue them numerous times! just to remind you in case you forgot or you missed it: numerous times!

29) YOU warned them, to return to YOUR Torah, but they acted wickedly and did not listen to YOUR commandments and transgressed through YOUR laws, which man should do in order that he may live through them. They turned a rebellious shoulder away and stiffened their necks and did not listen.

again we are told of their rebellious nature, but we are also told some great advice, namely we obey Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Laws in order:that [we] may live through them!

30) Yet YOU extended {grace} to them for many years, and YOU warned them by YOUR spirit, through the hand of YOUR Prophets, but they did not give ear; so you delivered them into the hands of the people of the lands.

once again we are told about Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's Grace, notice the verse mentions that Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala's "Spirit" warns them through the hands of the Prophets!

31) In YOUR abundant compassion YOU did not annihilate them and YOU did not abandon them, for YOU are A Gracious and Compassionate God.

how wonderful is it that although we learn just how much the "Jews" angered Allah Suhannahu Wa Ta'Aala, we are told over and over again in these SEVEN VERSES of His Abundant Compassion!

I will try in the near future, Insha' Allah, to show you evidence in the Tanakh itself that the Torah is NOT in it's original form!

:w:

first of all you made a little mistake in quoting me above. but i'll let that go, as the original is in your first post.
there is not lack of evidence in the tanakh about the jews' disobedience. this is what i thought was kind of interesting - but as you point out, it is no great mystery. i mean, after the exodus from egypt and the splitting of the red sea - they still failed to be grateful and quickly fell back in to their idolatrous ways in no time. they are called "stiff necked". islam confirms their rebelliousness, but it is plain in their own book. and so is god's patience with them.
when i said that the people in the tanakh were portrayed as being dreadful - this wasn't some anti-jewish remark. anyone reading the tanakh can read for themselves how they failed time and again. for some reason, this kind of appealed to me - how very human they were.
not sure how this "great assembly" relates to the talmud. there are actually 2 talmuds - babylonian and jerusalem - the babylonian is the one that is mainly followed. these are expoundings, elucidations and extrapolations of the laws in the torah. jewish worship had centered entirely around the temple, and without the work of ezra, etc the destruction of the temple would have been the destruction of the jews as a community.
i should make it plain here - i don't have an in depth interest in this stuff. which prophets did the jews kill?

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[YusufNoor]

you have provided a simple and obvious answer to my question. i had never really thought it through before. but yes, of course - due to the wretched condition the jews found themselves in, it was obvious that something was very wrong and that if the jews had been following the torah, god would never have allowed this to happen to them.
thanks!

one would think that in "coming clean", the truth would be wholly revealed. however, Freidman points out in his book how the geographic origin of the source in question often "taints" their writings against others, e.g. the descendants of Moses "adding" that Aaron built the golden calf, or Jerusalem sources duplicating the stories of the waters at Mirabeh and "adding" that Moses sinned there. Friedman adds that IF infact Aaron did build a golden idol for everyone to worship, he would have disqualified himself and his descendants from the priesthood.

ezra the scribe is extremely important - he established the basis for the synagogue - a place and structure for worship, now that the temple was destroyed.

actually, Ezra was treated as the "Second Lawgiver", bested only by Moses himself, but IF the Jews were following the Sunnah of Moses, there would be no need for all of the Sunnah created by Ezra.

he is not called "son of god" by jews.

agreed, but i didn't say they did. i said "That is one reason why the Qur’an says that Jews call Ezra the Son of God!"

i haven't read the book you mentioned but i have read many theories similar to the ones you mention about the tanakh being written by different writers at different times, by analyzing the writing itself - these scholars say there are very distinctive differences in writing styles. i have read hypotheses either identical to the one on the link you gave, or very similar to it. even some jewish scholars say this. though i think the orthodox position is that the torah is from god. i am not likely to read a book on the subject because my interest is not that great. i know from previous posts of yours that you have studied this stuff in some depth. i have not - and what little studying i have done was so long ago as to be largely in crumbles in various corners of my brain. i have read the tanakh but again it was many years ago. (haven't read the NT)

i must admit, that i read the book BEFORE i accepted Islam and alot of little details seemed trivial to me at the time. HOWEVER, i read it again last month and it kinda blew me away. it gives evidence, IMHO, that the Qur'an is absolutely correct in defending OT Prophets because most of the "mud" is flung by biased sources!

many muslims also blame the sorry state the ummah is in today on themselves for falling short in obeying god.
from my view, both the jews and the muslims could be right.

agree

thanks again - you have cleared up that little mystery quite nicely.
i will have to get back to you on your second post and post my comments or questions, if any.

first of all you made a little mistake in quoting me above. but i'll let that go, as the original is in your first post.

i was really only dealing with one aspect of the statement, so i tried to cut the rest. no offense or devience was intended!

there is not lack of evidence in the tanakh about the jews' disobedience. this is what i thought was kind of interesting - but as you point out, it is no great mystery. i mean, after the exodus from egypt and the splitting of the red sea - they still failed to be grateful and quickly fell back in to their idolatrous ways in no time. they are called "stiff necked". islam confirms their rebelliousness, but it is plain in their own book. and so is god's patience with them.
when i said that the people in the tanakh were portrayed as being dreadful - this wasn't some anti-jewish remark. anyone reading the tanakh can read for themselves how they failed time and again.

one of the reasons for putting the evidence to post was to show others what the Tanakh itself says and hopefully by not straying too far from that we won't make any "anti-Jewish remarks".

for some reason, this kind of appealed to me - how very human they were.

actually, that is the conclusion that Freidman reached is that DESPITE all the falsehoods added, all of the players come out seming more human!


not sure how this "great assembly" relates to the talmud. there are actually 2 talmuds - babylonian and jerusalem - the babylonian is the one that is mainly followed. these are expoundings, elucidations and extrapolations of the laws in the torah. jewish worship had centered entirely around the temple, and without the work of ezra, etc the destruction of the temple would have been the destruction of the jews as a community.


a later post Insha' Allah.


i should make it plain here - i don't have an in depth interest in this stuff.

ya, kind of my bad here. answering the original brings out so many aspects that tie together that i'm sure it goes beyond your interest. i just couldn't think of another title! imsad


which prophets did the jews kill?

:sl:

i'm not sure whether or not it would be useful to try to determine which Prophets the Jews killed or not. i'm sure at some point that the Jew in question wasn't indicative of the rest of the Jews at the time. but then again, he or she sould have been!

:w:

[snakelegs]

i think this subject is really out of my field. i wish rav would come back and have this discussion with you.
we do not disagree - i had said that in their own holy book, jews are not portrayed in a positive light. you pointed out that of course, they couldn't be because if they had been obedient all those bad things would not have happened to them. i agreed. (how many people of any religion are obedient?)
i also have no argument about the tanakh having been written by different writers at different time, though some jews would probably take issue. i think they believe that torah is the word of god.
i know the qur'an says that the jews called ezra "son of god". i don't think jews agree. personally, i have no idea and it doesn't matter to me.
this is getting to be a critique or in depth analysis of the tanakh and i am unqualified to hold this discussion. i have read it (tanakh) but it was many years ago.
i find both judaism and islam confortable in many ways, but i am neither muslim nor jew.
i am unaware of jews killing prophets.
jews do not claim to follow the sunnah of moses. i'm not positive that they even regard moses as a prophet? the jews say there is a written torah and an oral torah (talmud) and they follow both. i don't think they have the concept of sunnah, in the sense of following the ways of the prophet, as islam does. in islam, you follow the qur'an and the hadith. and you also have the tradition of tafsir, which the jews also have. it is not all that different, from the view of an outsider.
for a deep discussion about the tanakh, you really need a jew. we've had several very knowledgeable jews on this forum - i am still hoping at least one of them will come back. rav hasn't been back since this section was closed for ramadan.
where is a jew when you need one????

[Grace Seeker]

i am unaware of jews killing prophets.

the prophet Jeremiah was reportedly killed by other Jews who didn't like his message. That's not specifically mentioned in the Tanakh, but it is a part of tradition.

In Kings it is reported that Queen Jezebel had the Lord's prophets killed, though we are not given any names. Nehemiah also mentions that some of God's prophets were killed by Jews who choose not to honor God's law.

In the New Testament, Jesus laments over Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37) And there is a different story in Luke (chapter 11) where Jesus accuses the forefathers of the experts of the law in his day of having killed the prophets in the past.

jews do not claim to follow the sunnah of moses. i'm not positive that they even regard moses as a prophet?

I don't know what you mean by the sunnah of Moses. Yes, Moses is understood to be a prophet. His primary role is that of law giver, and Elijah is the archetypical prophet. But Moses is also considered to have been a prophet.

[snakelegs]

the prophet Jeremiah was reportedly killed by other Jews who didn't like his message. That's not specifically mentioned in the Tanakh, but it is a part of tradition.

In Kings it is reported that Queen Jezebel had the Lord's prophets killed, though we are not given any names. Nehemiah also mentions that some of God's prophets were killed by Jews who choose not to honor God's law.

In the New Testament, Jesus laments over Jerusalem, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." (Matthew 23:37) And there is a different story in Luke (chapter 11) where Jesus accuses the forefathers of the experts of the law in his day of having killed the prophets in the past.


I don't know what you mean by the sunnah of Moses. Yes, Moses is understood to be a prophet. His primary role is that of law giver, and Elijah is the archetypical prophet. But Moses is also considered to have been a prophet.

thanks for the info.
"the sunnah of moses" was used by yusufnoor. i was trying to explain that the jews do not have a "sunnah of moses" like muslims have the sunnah of muhammad.
this is the first i have heard of the jews killing jeremiah - is that jewish belief or christian?
do jews consider moses a prophet? law giver, i know - but did he prophesy?
when discussing jewish tradition, i think the NT is irrelevant. as i was telling yusuf - i am not qualified to discuss this stuff at all - my knowledge is little and mostly forgotten. like i didn't remember that in kings it is mentioned about the jews killing prophets. it's not too surprising - i guess they didn't want to hear what they said. :giggling:
i wish rav would come back!

[Grace Seeker]

this is the first i have heard of the jews killing jeremiah - is that jewish belief or christian?

You know. I may have to back off from that statement about Jeremiah. Some place I have read that Jeremiah was sawn in two. But, right now I can't find that. What I see in the Bible itself is that it looks like he ended his days in Egypt, whether dying of natural causes or at the hand of another we don't know. The book ends before Jeremiah's life does.

do jews consider moses a prophet? law giver, i know - but did he prophesy?

Yes, I believe they consider Moses was also a prophet. The classic definition of prophecy is not future-telling, but forth-telling. That is, speaking forth a message that God has given you to deliver. That certainly fits Moses very well.

when discussing jewish tradition, i think the NT is irrelevant.

Largely I would agree. But, to the extent you can believe them to be an accurate record, the gospel accounts can provide you a glimpse of Jewish life in early first century Palestine. So, if Jesus accuses religious leaders of killing the prophets before them, and they don't argue with him, it seems reasonable to assume that it was accepted by everyone that many of the prophets had been killed by certain other facets of Jewish society.

Or, another example: there is no devil mentioned in the Tanakh (of Satan yes, but not of a devil), but not only does Jesus mention it in the New Testament we find the Jewish leaders accusing Jesus of being in league with the devil. Therefore it stands to reason, that even though the concept of a devil is foreign to Jewish scripture, both written and oral tradition, that it was still a part of Jewish culture at that point in time. And indeed in the book What Is A Jew?, by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer, copyright 1960, it has a section as follows:

Do Jews Believe Literally In Satan?
There are a number of references to Satan in the Old Testament. But except for the brief period just before the Christian era, it is doubtful if Jews ever took these references literally.
In the Jewish tradition Satan was the mythical symbol of all the evil forces in the world. At times he was identified with the Tempter, the evil impulse which prompts men to heed the worst side of his nature. But even this notion was never too deep-rooted. For our religion teaches that God is the Creator of both good and evil and that His dominion, alone, is real.

i wish rav would come back!

Yeah, it would be nice. Anyone got his email address?

[snakelegs]

[QUOTE=Grace Seeker;862171]You know. I may have to back off from that statement about Jeremiah. Some place I have read that Jeremiah was sawn in two. But, right now I can't find that. What I see in the Bible itself is that it looks like he ended his days in Egypt, whether dying of natural causes or at the hand of another we don't know. The book ends before Jeremiah's life does.


Yes, I believe they consider Moses was also a prophet. The classic definition of prophecy is not future-telling, but forth-telling. That is, speaking forth a message that God has given you to deliver. That certainly fits Moses very well.


Largely I would agree. But, to the extent you can believe them to be an accurate record, the gospel accounts can provide you a glimpse of Jewish life in early first century Palestine. So, if Jesus accuses religious leaders of killing the prophets before them, and they don't argue with him, it seems reasonable to assume that it was accepted by everyone that many of the prophets had been killed by certain other facets of Jewish society.

Or, another example: there is no devil mentioned in the Tanakh (of Satan yes, but not of a devil), but not only does Jesus mention it in the New Testament we find the Jewish leaders accusing Jesus of being in league with the devil. Therefore it stands to reason, that even though the concept of a devil is foreign to Jewish scripture, both written and oral tradition, that it was still a part of Jewish culture at that point in time. And indeed in the book What Is A Jew?, by Rabbi Morris N. Kertzer, copyright 1960, it has a section as follows:

Do Jews Believe Literally In Satan?
There are a number of references to Satan in the Old Testament. But except for the brief period just before the Christian era, it is doubtful if Jews ever took these references literally.
In the Jewish tradition Satan was the mythical symbol of all the evil forces in the world. At times he was identified with the Tempter, the evil impulse which prompts men to heed the worst side of his nature. But even this notion was never too deep-rooted. For our religion teaches that God is the Creator of both good and evil and that His dominion, alone, is real.



Yeah, it would be nice. Anyone got his email address?

well, moses certainly had something to deliver - so yes, maybe they do consider him a prophet.
personally, i would be very wary of the NT as an unbiased portrayal of the jews of the time. but if the killing of prophets is referenced in kings, you don't really need the NT to confirm it.
no, i don't have his address - wish i did.

[Grace Seeker]

personally, i would be very wary of the NT as an unbiased portrayal of the jews of the time. but if the killing of prophets is referenced in kings, you don't really need the NT to confirm it.

To each his own, but again quoting from Rabbi Kertzer:

Students preparing for the rabinate often use the New Testament in their studies. A serious student finds the New Testament indispensible to a full understanding of Jewish history of the early Christian era.

See, I think that someone trying to understand that era of Judaism would find value in the New Testament in the same way that they would use any Qumran scrolls, to give insight to beliefs present in the culture at the time.

[snakelegs]

i'm sure some scholars might take it in to account. i don't think i would - but that's me.
inspite of this thread being addressed to me, my interest in the subject is not that great as i am neither muslim, jew or christian.

[Grace Seeker]

inspite of this thread being addressed to me, my interest in the subject is not that great as i am neither muslim, jew or christian.

Yeah, I know. Let me know if you ever decide you want to change that. :happy:

[snakelegs]

highly unlikely - christians have tried to "save" me since i was a child and i have managed to remain unsaved for over 6 decades.

[YusufNoor]

thanks for the info.
"the sunnah of moses" was used by yusufnoor. i was trying to explain that the jews do not have a "sunnah of moses" like muslims have the sunnah of muhammad.

actually, i like to use the term. our Jewish freinds claim that there was an oral Torah along with the written one (, i actually AGREE with that, btw. where we DIFFER is on just what they both were). BUT, just like Islam is the Qur'an and Sunnah [sayings and actions/ demonstrations] of the Rasulullah, Sallalahu Alihe Wa Salaam, the ORIGINAL reilgion of the Israelis post Egytptian captivity, could definitely be defined as the Torah plus the Sunnah [sayings and actions/ demonstrations] of their Messenger, Moses, Sallalahu Alihe Wa Salaam. the "sayings would be what he put forth as the oral Torah and the demonstrations/actions would be how to pray or sacrifice.


this is the first i have heard of the jews killing jeremiah - is that jewish belief or christian?

shees, WE ALL KNOW that Jeremiah brought the daughters of the King to England so that King David's throne would continue! :giggling: :giggling:

do jews consider moses a prophet? law giver, i know - but did he prophesy?

the Hebrew word for prophet/messenger and angel was the same one, iirc. the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy could be considered prophecy, only Jeremiah and Baruch wrote most of it.


when discussing jewish tradition, i think the NT is irrelevant. as i was telling yusuf - i am not qualified to discuss this stuff at all - my knowledge is little and mostly forgotten. like i didn't remember that in kings it is mentioned about the jews killing prophets. it's not too surprising - i guess they didn't want to hear what they said. :giggling:
i wish rav would come back!

:sl:

where is a jew when you need one????

our Jewish brothers would have chosen Egypt for the Jewish homeland, because in this particular arena it's all De Nile, De Nile, De Nile...:hiding:

i don't have a website like "who's who in the Torah" to check which named Prophets were killed, but on top of what we have in !! Kings we have:

I Kings 18:1-4

1) It happened [after] many days: the word of HASHEM came to Elijah in the third year (of the drought), saying, “Go, appear to Ahab; and I shall send rain upon the face of the land”.
2) So Elijah went to appear to Ahab, and the famine was severe in Samaria.
3) Ahad summoned Obadiah, who was in charge of the household [Obadiah feared God greatly
4) And it was when Jezebel had decimated the Prophets of HASHEM, Obadiah took a hundred prophets and hid them, fifty men to a cave, and sustained them with food and water]


II Chronicles 24:20-22

20) A spirit of God came over Zechariah son of Jehoiada the Kohen. He stood above the people and said to them, “Thus said God: Why are you transgressing the commandments of HASHEM? You will not succeed, for you have forsaken HASHEM, so He has forsaken you!”
21) But they conspired against him and stoned him with rocks, by the command of the king, in the Courtyard of the Temple of HASHEM,
22) Thus King Joash did not remember the kindness that [Zechariah’s] father Jehoiada had done for him, and he killed his son. As he was dying he said, “May God see this and demand redress!”

i will try to explain the importance on my statements about Ezra to show how it contradicts the "Oral Torah" that the Jews claimed to have retained, Insha' Allah before proceeding to show that the "current" Torah is NOT the original one. Ezra plays a vital role in all this!

btw, can someone come up with a different name for this thread! i don't want Snakelegs to feel that she has to prove/ disprove or refute/confirm anything here. her original quote was what made me want to work this out for people here.

:w:

[snakelegs]

btw, can someone come up with a different name for this thread! i don't want Snakelegs to feel that she has to prove/ disprove or refute/confirm anything here. her original quote was what made me want to work this out for people here.

that would be great! i do feel a bit awkward about it.
i really think if you want to "prove" something about the jewish texts, you need to talk with a knowledgeable jew.
only other comment i have is re:

the Hebrew word for prophet/messenger and angel was the same one, iirc. the blessings and curses of Deuteronomy could be considered prophecy, only Jeremiah and Baruch wrote most of it.

this is incorrect. the hebrew word for prophet is נביא navi (like nabi) , or sometimes - in the sense of seer - חוזה khozeh
the hebrew word for angel is malakh. מלאך

[Grace Seeker]

highly unlikely - christians have tried to "save" me since i was a child and i have managed to remain unsaved for over 6 decades.

Foolish Christians. Don't they realize that we can't "save" anybody. Only God can do that, and even he seeks your permission first. But I know that whenever any of God's lost sheep are found and returned to the fold that he throws a party. I just thought that for you God would probably throw one heckuva party. And, seriously, I wouldn't mind being there to celebrate alongside any friend who takes that step, if ever.

[snakelegs]

Foolish Christians. Don't they realize that we can't "save" anybody. Only God can do that, and even he seeks your permission first. But I know that whenever any of God's lost sheep are found and returned to the fold that he throws a party. I just thought that for you God would probably throw one heckuva party. And, seriously, I wouldn't mind being there to celebrate alongside any friend who takes that step, if ever.

we agree on the part i bolded. i'm not sure if he needs to ask permission.
i've often wondered, in view of the above - why are some christians so aggressive and persistent?
muslims go about it very differently.

[Grace Seeker]

i've often wondered, in view of the above - why are some christians so aggressive and persistent?
muslims go about it very differently.

I could only speculate at best. If that is more than a rhetorical question, I could engage in such speculations. But chief among them is that we are commanded to go and make disciples. But it doesn't say to make a pest of yourself in doing so. Sadly, some people just don't have any social skills. Truly, my sincerest apologies on their behalf.

[snakelegs]

you don't need to apologize for them. i don't believe in collective guilt. :D

[Grace Seeker]

you don't need to apologize for them. i don't believe in collective guilt. :D

I appreciate that attitude. But we in the church do need to learn to be more responsible for and accountable to one another.