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MTAFFI
11-13-2007, 08:02 PM
Chinese Sub Pops Up Undetected in U.S. Navy Exercise
Submitted by Julie on November 10, 2007 - 11:11am. Asia Government News Politics US News World News World Politics



Recently, when a Chinese submarine popped up undetected in the middle of a Pacific Ocean exercise, dangerously close to the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk, American military chiefs were left dumbfounded and red-faced, according to UK newspaper, Daily Mail.

When the Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, they take the security of the aircraft carriers very seriously. At least a dozen warships are used to provide a physical guard, and using advanced technology they are able to detect and deter any potential intruders.

By the time the Chinese sub surfaced, the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missles at the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk, a 1,000ft. supercarrier with 4,500 military personnel onboard.

According to senior Nato officials, the incident caused a sense of sudden fear in the U.S. Navy, as officials realized the seriousness of the encounter. The U.S. apparently had no idea just how sophisticated China's fast-growing submarine fleet had become, or that they even posed such a threat.

Reportedly, one Nato figure said that the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik". The Sputnik, if you remember, was the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite launched in 1957 which marked the beginning of the space age and kicked off the space race.

The U.S. Navy's brush with the Chinese Navy's submarine occurred in the Pacific Ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan. The one sub was able to slip past at least a dozen other U.S. warships that were in place to ward off any hostile aircraft or submarines. Two submarines were also in place, along with other advanced technology, which also failed to detect the intruding watercraft.

The U.S. Navy and Nato are now forced to re-think their strategy, and reconsider the level of threat posed from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

While China insists that the incident was a simple coincidence, others are not so sure about that. The run-in led to some intense diplomatic exchanges, with rattled American diplomats demanding to know why Chinese subs were shadowing the U.S. fleet.

Analysts believe that China was sending a message to the United States and the West by demonstrating their rapidly growing military capability to threaten foreign powers that might try to interfere in their own "backyard."

As a citizen of the United States, it may leave you wondering if we are really as safe as we think we are.

http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/3540
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Trumble
11-14-2007, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by MTAFFI
The run-in led to some intense diplomatic exchanges, with rattled American diplomats demanding to know why Chinese subs were shadowing the U.S. fleet.
No doubt for exactly the same reason you will find US subs shadowing Chinese fleets! Keeps them in practice, if nothing else.

I doubt this has much to do with 'superior technology'; just a smart skipper.
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Cognescenti
11-14-2007, 06:24 PM
Originally Posted by Trumble
No doubt for exactly the same reason you will find US subs shadowing Chinese fleets! Keeps them in practice, if nothing else.

I doubt this has much to do with 'superior technology'; just a smart skipper.
The US and Soviet subs used to play chicken all the time. In fact, there were several actual collisions. I am not surprised the Chinese would try this but if they actually succeeded I am impressed. The smartest skipper in the world could not overcome a noisy boat. They would still need good technology.

Of course, it would be a good trick to let the Chinese think they evaded detection ;D

I suspect there are a number of US subs lingering off the Chinese coast in international waters (maybe :sunny:) trying to pick up the Chinese subs as they leave port.
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jzcasejz
11-14-2007, 06:47 PM
Interesting news... thanks for posting...
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MTAFFI
11-14-2007, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
The US and Soviet subs used to play chicken all the time. In fact, there were several actual collisions. I am not surprised the Chinese would try this but if they actually succeeded I am impressed. The smartest skipper in the world could not overcome a noisy boat. They would still need good technology.

Of course, it would be a good trick to let the Chinese think they evaded detection ;D

I suspect there are a number of US subs lingering off the Chinese coast in international waters (maybe :sunny:) trying to pick up the Chinese subs as they leave port.
what is really crazy is the chinese sub is actually a deisel, kind of scary to think they got in that close to our ships like that, those ships hold over 4000 crew members an attack on a carrier like that would be devastating.
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amille40
11-14-2007, 07:27 PM
Articles like this get blown out of proportion by the media.

On the whole, China's Navy is far behind that of the United States. They have a few powerful subs like this one that shock and scare americans who dont look at the bigger picture. The chinese navy isnt very cohesive- its a fleet of random submarines all with different models. They have one nuclear missle sub that has irradiated the crew a few times, and handful of other nuclear subs that have also irradiated crews. The desiel subs they have, while sounding intimidating, are bought from Russia and they are old soviet models which are extremely loud in the water.

Right now China is developing a massive long submarine that is based on the old soviet designs. This prototype may have been what showed up to the american fleet.

Remember however, that subs following each other or rival fleets is a common practice in peacetime. There were constant incidents of Soviet or American subs crashing into ships or surfacing where they werent supposed to be during the cold war....it is a military practice drill to stalk other ships or submarines through the water and not engage them.
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Suomipoika
11-14-2007, 07:33 PM
Reminds me of the Swedish sub that "sunk" US carrier in training exercise.

http://www.knbc.com/news/10116514/de...ss=la&psp=news

Originally Posted by Pentagon: New Class Of Silent Submarines Poses Threat

SAN DIEGO, Calif. -- The Pentagon said it believes the greatest undersea threat facing the U.S. Navy since the end of the Cold War has arrived.

The threat involves a new a new class of silent submarines -- subs that the U.S. Navy is having trouble finding under water. In this exclusive investigation, NBC4's Chuck Henry looked into one of those submarines in San Diego.


Following is a verbatim script from the on-air report.

CHUCK HENRY: The threat is real. And it has the Navy so concerned that it's turning to Sweden for help. That's because the Swedes have those silent submarines.

And right now, one of them is stationed at Point Loma. Earlier this month, NBC4 had unprecedented access to the Swedish sub and its crew.

What NBC4 aired few people have ever seen and certainly not in the United States.

On the surface it looks like any other submarine, but the U.S. Navy said it could be the most dangerous sub in the world.

FREDERICK LINDEN: Being noisy is something that is dangerous for us.

HENRY: Fredrick Linden is the commander of the HMS Gotland. He and his crew of 29 call the sub base at Point Loma home. They came to San Diego because the Navy is worried about this new generation of silent subs.

The Pentagon leased the Gotland for one year, but now has extended the lease for a second year, as they try to learn why this submarine so difficult to find underwater.

Subs have always had two weaknesses: they make noise and can't stay submerged very long. But the Gotland runs on a high-tech system called Air Independent Propulsion -- or AIP.

LINDEN: With AIP, I can stay submerged for weeks.

HENRY: Not only can the sub stay submerged for up to a month, the AIP technology also makes it quieter than other subs, and almost impossible to pick up on sonar.

When the Gotland wants to be silent and undetectable, especially along coastal waters, there's not a place it can't go. And that's one of the reasons it's here.

Since last summer the Navy has spent months playing a game of cat and mouse with the Gotland off San Diego, and time after time the Swedish sub has eluded its pursuers.

HENRY (TO COMMANDER): As an adversary, how good are you at what you do?

LINDEN: Very good.

HENRY: Can you tell us about your accomplishments?

LINDEN: We are satisfied with being good.

HENRY: According to Swedish newspapers, in training exercises the Gotland has sunk our most sophisticated nuclear submarines. But perhaps even more disconcerting, it reportedly sunk our largest aircraft carrier, the U.S.S. Reagan.

NORMAN POLMAR, NAVAL ANALYST: She's really run rings around our carrier groups.

HENRY: Norman Polmar is a military analyst specializing in naval intelligence. He says since the end of the cold war, funding of the navy's anti submarine warfare program has been scaled back dramatically.

As the U.S. funnels billions into the war on terror, countries like North Korea, China and Iran are building or trying to get submarines like the Gotland.

Two months ago in the Persian Gulf, Iran tested a new anti-ship missile fired by one of its subs.

If the Iranians are successful in getting a Gotland-class submarine, it could pose a new silent danger to vital oil tanker traffic in the region.

POLMAR: With more of these submarines being bought by countries that don't particularly like us, Iran being a good example, yes, there is a potential. There is a threat.

HENRY: And the commander of the Gotland knows just how vulnerable the United States could be if a sub like his fell into the wrong hands.

HENRY: If you look at our coast, North America, is there any place that you can't go?

LINDEN: No.

HENRY: No place?

Linden then shakes his head.

HENRY: Although this emerging undersea threat is a top priority for the U.S. Navy, the U.S. is committed to its nuclear submarine force, and has no plans to develop subs like the Gotland.

The Navy says it just wants to know how to detect and kill them.
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Amadeus85
11-14-2007, 08:33 PM
The most important difference between China and The West is that Chinese goverment thinks about next 40, 50 years in future (because it will never be replaced by other goverment) and the USA and European countries can only plan their actions in the next 4 or 5 years (after that they may be replaced in democracy). Probably Chinese will take back the asian parts of Russia in some future and most probably less than 100 million Russia won't do anything about it ( In 2050 China will propably have 2 billion citizens).
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wilberhum
11-14-2007, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
The most important difference between China and The West is that Chinese goverment thinks about next 40, 50 years in future (because it will never be replaced by other goverment) and the USA and European countries can only plan their actions in the next 4 or 5 years (after that they may be replaced in democracy). Probably Chinese will take back the asian parts of Russia in some future and most probably less than 100 million Russia won't do anything about it ( In 2050 China will propably have 2 billion citizens).
A really interesting point. I need to think about that one.
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Amadeus85
11-14-2007, 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by wilberhum
A really interesting point. I need to think about that one.
The other important thing about China is that most Chinese are very patriotic and close with their country.When they come to USA or Europe they dont stop from being a citizens of CHRL. For us , it's not easy to understand but Chinese are ancestors of civilizations which is as old as persian or greek. And they dont forget about it. China used to be in some time the most powerful impire in world, and they have some chances to be it in the future. And other thing, wherever chinese immigrants appear, there also chinese mafia appears.Chinese are smart and hardworking.They are ready to play the new role in world game.
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amille40
11-15-2007, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
The other important thing about China is that most Chinese are very patriotic and close with their country.When they come to USA or Europe they dont stop from being a citizens of CHRL. For us , it's not easy to understand but Chinese are ancestors of civilizations which is as old as persian or greek. And they dont forget about it. China used to be in some time the most powerful impire in world, and they have some chances to be it in the future. And other thing, wherever chinese immigrants appear, there also chinese mafia appears.Chinese are smart and hardworking.They are ready to play the new role in world game.

A good point, but not completely true. Most chinese are patriotic to china, but not necessarily the PRC. Right now Hu Jintao and his communist party are having a very hard time mobilizing the next generation and communist party membership is at an all time low. Most chinese remember the Han dynasty fondly, but not necessarily Mao perse. The people that are in charge and making policy are following policy set in place by Deng Xiaoping, Mao's 2nd successor. These people play the nationalist mindset off the common folk into a communist idea of power and unity.

The chinese mafia? WHile I dont dispute that they show up with chinese immigrants, how is that something out of the ordinary? With the italians came the italian mafia, with south americans comes drug cartels. Every people has its crime syndicate, but that doesnt define who they are or represent a majority.

But we are waaaaaaaaaaaay off topic now. Back to what we were saying about the Chinese Navy, I wouldnt worry. As long as China cant produce their own subs and cruisers they have to buy versions based on Soviet clunkers. And as fast as they may be rising militarily, so it the US. Again, I go back to sensationalist newsmaking- while this is a real issue, it is not the end all story that they make it seem.
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Cognescenti
11-15-2007, 04:08 PM
China has enormous potential and is rapidly acquiring wealth, but one can't simply extrapolate their present growth rate into the future. Their present growth rate is the result of unmet demands due to the artifical restraints of Communism. I think they are going to have increasing difficulty controlling 2 billion people in the internet age. They have a serious problem with wealth disparity and pollution. As young Chinese become more sophisticated, they will demand more freedom and leisure.

The last thing we want is to have 2 billion Chinese mad at us. As it stands now, I think the Chinese Navy would get its butt kicked in a battle with the USN, but,
if any foreign power were to take on the Chinese it would get ugly fast as they would clearly rally against the enemy.
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Keltoi
11-15-2007, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by Cognescenti
China has enormous potential and is rapidly acquiring wealth, but one can't simply extrapolate their present growth rate into the future. Their present growth rate is the result of unmet demands due to the artifical restraints of Communism. I think they are going to have increasing difficulty controlling 2 billion people in the internet age. They have a serious problem with wealth disparity and pollution. As young Chinese become more sophisticated, they will demand more freedom and leisure.

The last thing we want is to have 2 billion Chinese mad at us. As it stands now, I think the Chinese Navy would get its butt kicked in a battle with the USN, but,
if any foreign power were to take on the Chinese it would get ugly fast as they would clearly rally against the enemy.
Historically the Chinese have been hard to "rally", but perhaps that changed with the introduction of Communist doctrine. Strategically the Chinese have a geographical disadvantage because the bulk of their population and resources are located on their east coast. A Naval blockade of the area wouldn't be that difficult to pull off as long as air superiority was achieved...which there is little doubt that the U.S. could achieve this against the Chinese.

Of course all of this is theory and probably not very likely unless the Chinese intentionally provoke the situation. Someone has already mentioned that the Communist Party in China is losing popular support. It would take one heck of a communist PR campaign to convince the Chinese that all out war with the U.S. is a good idea.
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