To muslims are atheists worse than other theists?

[Pygoscelis]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Thread Approved.

[islamic]

Well, as I know and as I think, to atheists we should convey the message of Islam, that there is no God beside Allah, we should treat them good and help them when needed. So, they are no soldiers of the Devil :) you are no soldier of the devil .
You have understood that there is no God, we only should tell you that ALLAH is the one and only God :) It's easy for a Muslim to talk with atheist because the atheist doesn't believe in 3 gods, woman god, man god, half woman half man god, elephant god, cow god, dog god ... like some others do , and like Christians do believe in 3 gods, Trinity.
So , no problem with atheist, they know that the Bible is fabricated, they know that Christianity is fabricated, they know that the message of Christianity is doctrine made by people for their interests .. they know that there is no science in the Bible, and it's easy with them.

Check this links, these are answers by professionals , people inviting other toward Islam, I hope you will understand your issue better.


How Islam Deals with Atheist - by Dr Zakir Naik

Dawah To An Atheist By Zakir Naik, Part 1

Dawah To An Atheist By Zakir Naik, Part 2

Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

InshAllah they will help you and you will be right guided into Islam.

[barney]

I know in the US , religion is a big part of a proportion of peoples lives. Here, it's the Norm to be Atheist or Agnostic.

It's much rarer to practice that Atheism or Agnosticism, or have any devoutness in it.

The Christians I do meet, only really get upset when I tell them that I dont fear God. They cant understand that at all.
Mostly they accept the secular veiw as part of society and potential Lambs to be brought back into The Fold

Muslims, I know plenty of Muslims, but unsurprisingly, we dont talk religion :)

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[Woodrow]

they are quite a few Muslims in this world. I believe most of us do believe that an Atheist is lost, especially if he/she has been been told about Allaah(swt) and refuses to believe.

However, we all believe Allaah(swt) to be the fairest and most merciful of all judges. We do not know how he will judge any specific individual.

Now, as far as how we personally feel about Atheists I would say that will be very individual and you will get different opinions from every one of us.

[islamic]

Pygoscelis, you should watch those videos by Zakir Naik.

[islamirama]

As bro woodrow said, it would depend on each individual's personality. But I believe for the most part, you will find Muslims less threatened or be hostile towards you if your an atheist compared to some other faith. Islam does not believe forcing religion down other's throat nor shunning them for their beliefs. I'd treat you the same way i'd treat a christian, jew or any other person and that is like a human being. Our faiths (or lack of) may differ but doesn't mean we have nothing in common for us to get along.

Only people i would have issue with is those who try to force their beliefs on you, whether they be christain, atheist or what not.

[islamic]

The Christians I do meet, only really get upset when I tell them that I dont fear God. They cant understand that at all.
Mostly they accept the secular veiw as part of society and potential Lambs to be brought back into The Fold

The problem of Christians is that they fail in presenting the right concept of God, and they are getting angry in their own mistake. Interesting, they present bad concept of God, and they lose people from Christianity because of their mistakes and modifications done in the religion. They should not get upset at all!

Muslims, I know plenty of Muslims, but unsurprisingly, we dont talk religion :)

It's sad for those Muslims that don't convey the message of Islam to the non-Muslims.

[------]

:salamext:

I think they are pretty much the same to be honest...

[islamic]

I believe most of us do believe that an Atheist is lost, especially if he/she has been been told about Allaah(swt) and refuses to believe.

brother, I think that more lost are those who believe in elephant and snakes for their gods. Atheists in general are people that has left Christianity as their previous believe, so I congratulate to an Atheist ( like Dr.Zakir Naik do) because he started to think.

[noorahmad]

well i do have frens who are agnostic, but as long as you do not talk against Islam or attack muslim brothers and sisters, i dont find any reason to be hostile to you ar any other atheist or agnostic

[Malaikah]

:sl:

On one hand I prefer atheists because it generally means they were raised on one religion, recognised that is it falsehood and rejected it, on the other hand I think they are worst because they have the arrogance to presume there is no God.

Now, why did you leave out the dear agnostics? I think they are best- the rejected the falsehood of the religions they may have been born into but did not reject God.

[Whatsthepoint]

:sl:

On one hand I prefer atheists because it generally means they were raised on one religion, recognised that is it falsehood and rejected it

What if that religion were Islaam?

[boriqee]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

here is what it boils down to.

atheism, as a philosophy in and of itself, outside of it being the most illogical and quite preposterous innovated beleif invented by man ever to be produced, it is the most corrupt in terms of its core foundation, the very denial of the root causes that made such a person existant, God.
\
that is the theology itself, as for people.

according to Islam, disbeleivers (that means all whether christian, jews, atheists, etc) are of 2 categories

1. non hostile
2. the antagonists (hostile).

it is based on these two realities being implemented by a disbeleiver that qualifies him or herself to be among the first and the second, and based on that premise are treated to that extent, Islamically.

as for how muslims see atheism as being a threat more so than other religions, is far from being true. As muslims we know a house built on cards can only last for so long. while all religions (paths to God) failed to protect the sanctity of the essence of what their prophets (from God) revealed to them, at least their house of cards are made of plastic (so to speak) where as atheism, its actual cards is made of tissue paper.

most of the disbeleiveing world are just merely ignorants, and what qualifies one to enter the characterisitcs of a fully flesdged shaytan are actually a couple matters

1, being that hthey are fully furnished with undeniable evideence to which it is not only met with rejection but viewed as objectionable
2. at-tabaakee i.e. one who plays around. In this case even when the people of truth try to pin someone down (theologically speaking) in such a way that they would have to accept, they have an escape route so absurd. they are untouchable

and other characteristics. for example, Robert Spencer and people of his like are considered shayateen (devils), complete and outright liars who only after 9/11 became sudden experts on a religion they themselves don't understand the grammatical structure of the arabic alphabet, much less the grammatical usage and expertise to even make a comment on.

legislatively speaking, in islam, the shaytaan is one who deters another from a worship of God. and worship in Islam means all thing,s having good character, having proper and validated beleifs, etc. That means when somone is encoraging muslims to leave Islam or they encourage innovated beleifs, or they espouse via propagation distorted interpretations of islam in order to deter muslims from following the understanding of the prophet and his companions, then by default such a one is a shaytaan. So that shaytaan can be both a muslim or a disbeleiver, and shaytans are not limited to only disbeleivers.

i hope this answer was sufiicient

[wilberhum]

:sl:

On one hand I prefer atheists because it generally means they were raised on one religion, recognised that is it falsehood and rejected it, on the other hand I think they are worst because they have the arrogance to presume there is no God.

Now, why did you leave out the dear agnostics? I think they are best- the rejected the falsehood of the religions they may have been born into but did not reject God.

Ya, Agnostics rock.

[barney]

:sl:

On one hand I prefer atheists because it generally means they were raised on one religion, recognised that is it falsehood and rejected it, on the other hand I think they are worst because they have the arrogance to presume there is no God.

Now, why did you leave out the dear agnostics? I think they are best- the rejected the falsehood of the religions they may have been born into but did not reject God.

Indeed. But what if our understanding of God is utterly incompatible with Allah, as well as Yahweh and Hirohito. Surely then we are as misguided as the atheists?

[Malaikah]

Of course you are misguided, but hardly to the extent of atheists!

And it isn't fair to say that agnostics understand of God "is utterly incompatible" because agnostics are very broad in their beliefs, many of who don't really know what they believe.

Of course I am not saying that being agnostic is a good thing, but for sure it is better than being an atheist.

[al-muslimah]

To Muslims at least to me , Atheists are ignorant they are disbelievers just like the jews and christians, most Ahteists are evil and have converted some muslims even into their corrupt belief!!

[InToTheRain]

Personally I see no diffrence between Athiests and Agnostics :ooh: I have heard of self proclaimed athiests revert to Islam and one has actually done a lecture on it actually:

http://lightuponlight.com/islam/modu...&orderby=dateD

So we see that no one is truely an athiest, because if the Brother Jeffrey Lang actually stood firm to the belief "There is no God" he would never have considered Islam if you know what I am saying. Potatoes tomatoes, whats the diffrence innit? :D

[wilberhum]

To Muslims at least to me , Atheists are ignorant they are disbelievers just like the jews and christians, most Ahteists are evil and have converted some muslims even into their corrupt belief!!

So what is your defination of evil? Atheist. :muddlehea:playing:

[Isambard]

I find christians have more of a problem with atheists than muslims though I will conceed that there is a bias there because the majority of atheists in this part of the world are former christians (myself included).

In general, there does seem to be misconceptions about atheists such as atheism being an ideology/religon onto itself, atheists being ignorant of X's religion, atheists having no moral system etc.

These critisizims may be true with some atheists, but not all.

Atheism can be either a negative or a positive. Either you dont see evidence of God (negative), or you believe there is absolutely no God (positive).

With the former, the burden of proof ison the believer while on the latter the burden of proof is on the (Strong) Atheist. I personally am a Weak atheist.

Despite being an atheist, I also enjoy reading religious material. Im a bit of a amature scholar when it comes to NT materials and always find it amusing when a christian tries to convert me citing the bible :D

I also know quite a bit of some of the 'dead' religions and in specific, Greek/Roman and Nordic mythology.

Im working on my knowledge of the Islam and Hindu and know enough to hold my own if someone is trying to convert me some of the common arguements for conversion, but I still require more studies to be as proficient as I am with christianity:)

Atheism itself holds no moral system, it is just a lack of belief in a deity(ies) but there are several ethical models with some common ones being Humanism, Utilitarianism, and Objectivism.

Me personally, I really am an "Evil Atheist" in that I am in the tiny minority that considers itself Nihilists.
That is I really do believe in 'nothing' :)

[Woodrow]

I find christians have more of a problem with atheists than muslims though I will conceed that there is a bias there because the majority of atheists in this part of the world are former christians (myself included).

You will also find that some of us feel that your are approaching the truth as you have shed false beliefs.

In general, there does seem to be misconceptions about atheists such as atheism being an ideology/religon onto itself, atheists being ignorant of X's religion, atheists having no moral system etc.

These critisizims may be true with some atheists, but not all.

That appears to be true. Nearly every person I know has expressed similar words.

Atheism can be either a negative or a positive. Either you dont see evidence of God (negative), or you believe there is absolutely no God (positive).

With the former, the burden of proof ison the believer while on the latter the burden of proof is on the (Strong) Atheist. I personally am a Weak atheist.

Either way it provides a very solid invisible wall that is difficult for a Diest to reach into, Or for an atheist to climb out of.

Despite being an atheist, I also enjoy reading religious material. Im a bit of a amature scholar when it comes to NT materials and always find it amusing when a christian tries to convert me citing the bible :D

I can empathize with that. I have felt the same thing from people of other faiths when they learn I am Muslim.

I also know quite a bit of some of the 'dead' religions and in specific, Greek/Roman and Nordic mythology.

Im working on my knowledge of the Islam and Hindu and know enough to hold my own if someone is trying to convert me some of the common arguements for conversion, but I still require more studies to be as proficient as I am with christianity:)

At least you have the willingness to study even if it is for the purpose of refutation. That is all a Muslim can ask you to do. The choice is always yours and as long as you make an informed choice, I can see no need to try to "make" you revert. the choice is yours, my interest is only to understand that it is your own personal choice and not based on false information.

Atheism itself holds no moral system, it is just a lack of belief in a deity(ies) but there are several ethical models with some common ones being Humanism, Utilitarianism, and Objectivism.

Me personally, I really am an "Evil Atheist" in that I am in the tiny minority that considers itself Nihilists.
That is I really do believe in 'nothing' :)

I know this is splitting hairs but isn't believing you are a Nihilist, a belief?

[InToTheRain]

That is I really do believe in 'nothing' :)

FOR GOD's SAKE MAN, AT LEAST BELIEVE IN YER SELF...oh... wait ^o)

Just out of curiosity what led you away from Christianity :ooh:

I am sure many believe they are "Nihilists" but revertion to Islam is an "Event" and not a gradual Process in my opinion, hence to me all are agnostics.

enjoy your studies :thumbs_up

[snakelegs]

Ya, Agnostics rock.

of course!

[syilla]

:salamext:

It depends actually,

if the atheists are trying to learn and respect other religion for me they are okay.

But if they are being ignorant and hate religion than that is something which i think are dangerous people.

and these go to the agnostics too.

[wilberhum]

:salamext:

It depends actually,

if the atheists are trying to learn and respect other religion for me they are okay.

But if they are being ignorant and hate religion than that is something which i think are dangerous people.

and these go to the agnostics too.

I totaly agree with the "respect" part but why do I have to be "trying to learn" to be OK?

[Isambard]

You will also find that some of us feel that your are approaching the truth as you have shed false beliefs.

Perhaps. But in my studies I've found 'truth' to be very Lovecraftian. Kinda I wish I stayed ignorant :skeleton:


Either way it provides a very solid invisible wall that is difficult for a Diest to reach into, Or for an atheist to climb out of.

I don't believe it to be a will thing. Either you believe in it or you don't based soley on your own criteria. If I were to believe in something then I could deny it to others or even to myself but that wouldnt stop me from believing, same goes for lack of belief/faith. The barrier is there because it doesn't make sense to me personally.


At least you have the willingness to study even if it is for the purpose of refutation. That is all a Muslim can ask you to do. The choice is always yours and as long as you make an informed choice, I can see no need to try to "make" you revert. the choice is yours, my interest is only to understand that it is your own personal choice and not based on false information.


Well, my reason for studying religion is because I (usually) enjoy the literary pieces and I also find it so curious that folks maybe so passionate about something I feel doesn't exist.

The refutation comes later because I feel an urge to question any positive claims made, religious or otherwise.


I know this is splitting hairs but isn't believing you are a Nihilist, a belief?

Well, I would say I am Nihilist by default the same way I am atheist by default or you consider yourself Muslim by default.

Someone may say you arnt, and perhaps there is a religion/philosophy hidden away to which you really adhere to, but until proven otherwise you consider yourself a muslim. Same goes for my Nihilism.

I hold no "should" opinions and work off of a system of personal perferences which is different than Objectivism because I realise my preferences are subjective to "me" at this very moment. In 10mins I may have changed a perference.

Im also not adverse to recommending decisions that work agaisnt me if asked to give an optimal solution to a problem with certain criteria in mind, so I dont necessarily work off of self-internest at all times either.:thumbs_up

[Isambard]

FOR GOD's SAKE MAN, AT LEAST BELIEVE IN YER SELF...oh... wait ^o)

Just out of curiosity what led you away from Christianity :ooh:

I am sure many believe they are "Nihilists" but revertion to Islam is an "Event" and not a gradual Process in my opinion, hence to me all are agnostics.

enjoy your studies :thumbs_up

I dunno, Nihilists tend to be in extreme even for skeptics;D

Seeing how by definition we believe all morality to be faulty constructs (secular included) as well any and all ideologies, I dont see how I as a nihilist would have enough common language with Islam to ever convert:hiding:

PS. My bad, I didnt answer your question >.<

Alot of things didn't make internal logic in christianity. One thing led to another till I no longer considered myself christian. Hearing so many good things of other religions, I started to study in the hopes of finding one that I could adhere to with no personal conflict of reasoning. That didn't happen. I tried secular ideologies....same problem.

Im currently still looking, but doing this for several years now has left me pretty skeptical. You could ask why I continue to which I reply, "cause there's nothing else to do :-P"

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I totaly agree with the "respect" part but why do I have to be "trying to learn" to be OK?

it increases understanding and reduces ignorance.



I think both are HORRID (start recognising the one who gives you everything, to do otherwise is ingratitude at its greatest)

It dont matter if the theists accept a God, if its not Allaah, they still worship someone else, i feel sry for the sincere ones... but ALlah knows best


muslims are good :)

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
I have friends who are athiest, agnostic, hindu, sikh, muslim a few jewish and christian members (from LI now that I think about it). I get along with them all fine and never question what they believe in and neither do they question me.

Sure I may disagree with certain things (core beliefs etc) but to be honest, religion hardly ever comes into a conversation. The only time it did was when two of my non-religious friends asked me about Islam and prayer.

Are aetheists worse than theists? Heck, as long as we are getting along with each other and not at the point where we have to kill each other, who cares what the person sitting next to you believes (or doesn't believe) in?!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i remind the muslims of al-wala wal bara'

Imam Ahmad and at-Tirmidhi narrated from a hadith of Sahl ibn Mu'adh al-Juhani from his father that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said,
"Whoever gives for the sake of Allah and withholds for the sake of Allah, and loves for the sake of Allah and hates for the sake of Allah "

Imam Ahmad added,
"and gives in marriage for the sake of Allah, has completed and perfected his iman."

In a version of Imam Ahmad there is that,
"He asked the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, about the best [part] of iman and he said, 'That you love for the sake of Allah and hate for the sake of Allah and you exercise your tongue with the remembrance of Allah.' He asked, 'What else, Messenger of Allah?' He answered, "That you want for people what you want for yourself, and you dislike for them what you dislike for yourself.'"

In another version of his there is,
"and that you speak well or be quiet." In this hadith there is mentioned that a great deal of remembrance of Allah is one of the best parts of iman.

He also narrated the hadith of 'Amr ibn al-Jumuh that he heard the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saying, "The slave is not fit for complete and pure iman until he loves for the sake of Allah and hates for the sake of Allah. When he loves for the sake of Allah and hates for the sake of Allah he has become worthy of friendship from Allah, exalted is He." He also narrated the hadith of al-Bara' ibn 'Azib, may Allah be pleased with him, that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The strongest handhold of iman is that you love for the sake of Allah and hate for the sake of Allah."

Ibn 'Abbas, may Allah be pleased with both of them, said, "Love for the sake of Allah and hate for the sake of Allah, take friends for the sake of Allah and make enemies for the sake of Allah, for you will only attain the friendship of Allah by that. The slave will never find the savour of iman, even if he does a great deal of prayer and fasting until he is like that. Most of the brotherhood [between] people has become because of something to do with the world, and that doesn't help His people at all." Ibn Jarir at-Tabari and Muhammad ibn Nasr al-Marwazi narrated it.

and it doesnt need to be said just how much Allaah hates shirk and kufr


Assalamu Alaikum

[Woodrow]

This is off topic however I think this is a good place to say this:



Disagreement is to be expected. we all disagree with things somebody else believes. Be that religious beliefs or beliefs in anything such as favorite ice cream, concepts of mathematics, favorite school subjects, fair prices for mukluks, appropriate colors for wall paper, etc.

Disagreement is not the problem. The problem seems to be how we react to disagreement. You will never think exactly the same as I do and I will never think the same as you do, that applies to all people.

It is ok to disagree even to argue. But it must be done with the understanding that all disagreement be done with dignity, honor and mutual respect.

[wilberhum]

it increases understanding and reduces ignorance.

So why do I need to understand you to be "OK"?

I don't think you need to understand me to be "OK".
You don't even need to like me or respect me.
For you to be "OK" with me is to not abuse me.

Maybe it is just a different defination of "OK".
Or maybe it is a difference in tollorance.

[wilberhum]

:sl:
I have friends who are athiest, agnostic, hindu, sikh, muslim a few jewish and christian members (from LI now that I think about it). I get along with them all fine and never question what they believe in and neither do they question me.

Sure I may disagree with certain things (core beliefs etc) but to be honest, religion hardly ever comes into a conversation. The only time it did was when two of my non-religious friends asked me about Islam and prayer.

Are aetheists worse than theists? Heck, as long as we are getting along with each other and not at the point where we have to kill each other, who cares what the person sitting next to you believes (or doesn't believe) in?!

Well done. I could not agree more. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up:thumbs_up

[Amadeus85]

I think that there are very few people who are atheists.I mean its hard to believe that there is no one there, just science and evolution. I dont think that muslims se christians or jews better than atheists or agnostics, but i would say ( correct me if im wrong) muslims show more respect to people of the book than to other nonbelievers. I mean, i dont know it for sure, but i just think like that.

[Skavau]

On one hand I prefer atheists because it generally means they were raised on one religion, recognised that is it falsehood and rejected it, on the other hand I think they are worst because they have the arrogance to presume there is no God.

That would only be the case of strong atheists. And moreover, what is arrogant about presuming there is no God?

atheism, as a philosophy in and of itself, outside of it being the most illogical and quite preposterous innovated beleif invented by man ever to be produced, it is the most corrupt in terms of its core foundation, the very denial of the root causes that made such a person existant, God.

Atheism isn't necessarily a belief, nor is it a philosophy. It is a viewpoint on a single metaphysical position.

To Muslims at least to me , Atheists are ignorant they are disbelievers just like the jews and christians, most Ahteists are evil and have converted some muslims even into their corrupt belief!!

Do you have any evidence or reasoning to support your assertion that most Atheists are evil? And what corrupt beliefs to Atheists hold?

[snakelegs]

it increases understanding and reduces ignorance.



I think both are HORRID (start recognising the one who gives you everything, to do otherwise is ingratitude at its greatest)

It dont matter if the theists accept a God, if its not Allaah, they still worship someone else, i feel sry for the sincere ones... but ALlah knows best


muslims are good :)

i am an agnostic who believes in god. in my view, there is only one god - so there is only allah.
it is religion i don't believe in, not god.

[Trumble]

atheism, as a philosophy in and of itself, outside of it being the most illogical and quite preposterous innovated beleif invented by man ever to be produced, it is the most corrupt in terms of its core foundation, the very denial of the root causes that made such a person existant, God.

In other words you are saying that atheism is illogical and proposterous if you assume there is a God. Can I assume that you agree, therefore, that if you assume there isn't a God then it is theism that is both illogical and preposterous?

Neither, of course, is any more illogical and preposterous (actually, neither is 'illogical' at all) than the other as nobody has ever proved there is a God any more than anybody has ever proved there isn't one. Whether we can admit it to ourselves or not, whichever camp you are in there is the possibility that you are wrong. That is why toleration, understanding and religious freedom are essential.

BTW, it may comfort you as a theist to reflect on the fact that if you are wrong you will never find out. The same is not true of the atheist! :sunny:

[Karina]

I am agnostic. Not Atheist. (Ok this is a slight departure from the topic) But

I learn as much as I can about other ways of life, other religions, and I sit back and ponder.

I stand away from the conflict and disagreement and battle and war and so-called "jihad" (please note I am not disrespecting the true meaning of the word) and I wonder about the problems of the world. And we have problems.... That need resolving. Europe USA Asia Australasia Africa...

And I actually put this matter to another collection of people on another Mulsim Forum and the majority told me in no uncertain terms that religion is not the problem. Religion is the solution. (Ok... well this is a matter of debate that I am continually pondering).

Well I say yes. It may be the solution...... If you look at things from ONE point of view. But we cannot look at ANYTHING from one pont of view, can we??!! How can we, when there are so many human beings, so many cultures...How many religions are there? How many variations of each religion...? Dozens? Hundreds? Who is right? Who is wrong? Do they all think they are right? Of course!!

What are the problems of this world and how can they be resolved?
How does impartiality come into it? I am impartial, so am I better eqipped to help others due to my impartiality, my non-biased approach when it comes to religion>? Ok, well do Christians favour Christian charities more, do Muslims support Muslim casues more than others, are Jews compelled to help only Jews?
Are Atheists and Agnostics impartial when it comes to war-victims and the needy and charities?

Actually...How many points of view are there? How many?

I have so many questions and this is why I feel I cannot even begin to embrace Atheism. Or religion!.... until I can solve the problems of the world in my own mind, problems of human beings, as G*D does not seem to be offering any help in the suffering of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus, Zulus, Aborigones............blah blah blah. And they're all suffering, but is this why we BLAME everyone else so much.
As far as I can see, God is overseeing a gross amount, a disgusting dispicable history of unimaginable suffering... What? you mean we're doing it to ourselves and we should be following the word of god and that will be our saving grace? Well I would rather die helping those suffering people without the guidance of "GOD". I have the interests of those people at heart without ulterior motives, I DO NOT want the blessing of anyone, I want to give to others without self gratification, without religious gratification. I don't care if those gates of "Hell" are waiting for me if I can make a difference in this world.

When I go to S.America (volunteer work) in June I want to be able to look at others as human beings, as fellow planet-dwellers, not as A CATEGORY, OR A RELIGION, or as anything other than people. I will then be moving to Malaysia to work with underprivilaged children before I start my degree in September. I want to support them not for any selfish ulterior motive, that I will hope that God will note me favourably in my quest for "heaven", for "paradise". And do not be mistaken, it will certainly not be for any self gratification, but for the pure and simple human instinct that is care, compassion, and empathy.

I do not believe in fighting for someone I have never seen.... Or war in whatever kind.
I do believe in saying things as they are and standing your corner without bringing God into things.
I do believe in being offended but silently, unfalteringy having confidence in what you believe.
I do not believe in basing morality on religion - we have Godless morality, acknowleged by theists (please do ask me to quote).
I do believe that human beings can live together in all the more harmony without having to justify our actions through God and blaming their actions on what God wants.
I do belive that questioning the world we live in is healither than having one sole belief

But this is a HUUUUGE can of worms an it's probably not worth opening on here! I just wanted to give it a mention!

ATHIEST v THEIST

hmm. I'll stick with my unfinished conclusion thanky' very much.

In the words of a wise NY lady
CHEERS!

[NoName55]

Well, as I know and as I think, to atheists we should convey the message of Islam, that there is no God beside Allah, we should treat them good and help them when needed. So, they are no soldiers of the Devil :) you are no soldier of the devil .
You have understood that there is no God, we only should tell you that ALLAH is the one and only God :) It's easy for a Muslim to talk with atheist because the atheist doesn't believe in 3 gods, woman god, man god, half woman half man god, elephant god, cow god, dog god ... like some others do , and like Christians do believe in 3 gods, Trinity.
So , no problem with atheist, they know that the Bible is fabricated, they know that Christianity is fabricated, they know that the message of Christianity is doctrine made by people for their interests .. they know that there is no science in the Bible, and it's easy with them.

Check this links, these are answers by professionals , people inviting other toward Islam, I hope you will understand your issue better.


How Islam Deals with Atheist - by Dr Zakir Naik

Dawah To An Atheist By Zakir Naik, Part 1

Dawah To An Atheist By Zakir Naik, Part 2

Dr. Zakir Naik - Does God exist?

InshAllah they will help you and you will be right guided into Islam.

may I disagree with Zakir Naik about atheists being better than theists of any religion (other than monotheists of Islam)?

Note:Not much point in saying anymore at the moment if the post is going to be deleted as an insult to "scholars of Islam, past, present and etcetera"

[boriqee]

Atheism isn't necessarily a belief, nor is it a philosophy. It is a viewpoint on a single metaphysical position.

that is the preponderant fallacy of modern times.

a single idea can and many times, is a virtual beleif system in and of itself

example, the entire religion of Islam, the millions of books written, the hundreds of thousands of theologians and preservers and the billions of muslims that have existed is based off of what you call one simple statement or view or single metaphysical position. that is

There is no thing that deserves to be worshiped (worship in this sense is comprehensive, part of its meaning here is no law should be obeyed if in opposition to the divine law, likewise attributing the very begining of how the creation was created to other than the Creator i.e. nature, is likewise placing worship to other than God, and there are other much comprehensive realities to the meaning of this statement) except God alone

and then Muhammad is the messenger who conveyed the message God enjoined upon mankind.

The whole of the religion of not only our religion, but the religion of the prophets are centrally based on this concept, this "single metaphysical" concept.

the next islamic perspective that synchronizes a viewpoint to be a religion is that the term religion does not or fails to entail the comprehensive aspect in the english terminology. Religion, as understood according to the english speaking world, for the most part consists of certain beleifs and rituals based on a metaphysical philosophy. That, according to the premodern world is devoid of the proper definition of religion. In Islam, when someone is swayed by an opinion, lets say the opinion or viewpoint that "God has no Attributes" then that properly in Islam is in and of itself an entirely new philosophy, a religion. That is why in Islam, certain sects are deemed by due right of the Islamic jurists as "another religion" even though they are classified as among the sects of Islam. Point is, is that just a mere viewpoint that steers away from the viewpoint of what was authentically established by the prophet of Islam can and is itself an entirely new concept i.e. a heresy.


Outside of the Islamic proofs, from the logical proofs that necessitate that a single viewpoint does and can be summed up as a religion in and of itself is that the reality of "religion" as it should be properly understood is a way of life. even certain conservative thinkers classify a "liberal mindset" as a religion or school of thought by itself, likewise they themsleves classify their ideas as a religion, because logically religion is a way of life, a way to carry onself in this life by beleifs and by actions and by statements.

atheism, at its core, as you understand, survives on the notion that God is Himself non existant wa iyaadhubillah. That "single metaphysical" theory in and of itself lures one to base the actions of his or her life on that premise. Therefore when the concept of "man can rule or legislate laws for themselves without the need of God" is itself an entire way life (as we see in america) based on one single concept, the beleif that makes atheism, atheism.

posted by trumble

Neither, of course, is any more illogical and preposterous (actually, neither is 'illogical' at all) than the other as nobody has ever proved there is a God any more than anybody has ever proved there isn't one. Whether we can admit it to ourselves or not, whichever camp you are in there is the possibility that you are wrong. That is why toleration, understanding and religious freedom are essential.

1. toleration is undisputed on top of which one must as well understand that a certain statement that someone may makle which is their evaluation of something else should not and cannot be classified as something "intolerant"

for example, when someone makes the preposterous assumtpion that Muhammad is a pedaphile, I understand that is their opinion and they are not being intolerant. And then when I remakrd on their compounded ignorance due to whcih led them to say such a thing, is likewise something that does not fit to be described as "intolerant"

2. as for the possibility of wrongness, even from a strictly logical viewpoint, the side that accepts the existance of the Creator is at a win/lose situation (losing based off of his own deeds) whereas the one who rejects the existence of their Creator is in a loose/loose situation. Even from a purely logical stance it makes no sense even if one were to assume the possibility that the stance of those who accept His existence are themselves wrong. However, man, as they were created can only make judgements that is proven by reason and due right of facts or the power of logic. The side that accepts His existence have reason and logic on their side as has most profoundednly been expounded upon by many theologians before simple me. Likewise in the contrast of this, if we were to look at its opposite, those who deny His existence, then only fallacious notions that oppose reason and logic is that which the beleif of His "non existance" stands upon.

3. lastly, one does not need a material proof for the absolute existance of a thing, thus your arguement would apply only in a world were people who can only be convinced based on a literal backing of a claim. But this world is not based on such a notion, otherwise judges in the court would have to be in the very incident when someone is getting murdered in order for them to ascertain the guilt of a suspect or not. The world does not function that way. What adds to the illogcal fallacy of the atheists is that while some of them may aknowledge this, they are quick to turn the tables so as to apply a different form of judging their own Creator. in other words, they may not subject human activities or objects in such a stringent methodology (of literalism to be convinced), but they are so quick to do so for a being who is by default beyond the creational aspects of this world. So with God they hold one method, and with other than Him they hold another, that is why they are willing to attribute the physical actual creation, its origion, to a non existant entity, nature, or the big bang. We can elaborate further into such catastrophic fallacies of atheism, but I don't have the time nor will to reenter this subject.
I hope i have entertained your questions on a satisfactory level.

[syilla]

I totaly agree with the "respect" part but why do I have to be "trying to learn" to be OK?

well...learning means that they have the initiative to make 'peace' with the people that have religions.

learning can mean alot of things...

learning to understand
learning of the basic concept of religion
learning other culture
learning to show respect
learning to know why people love their religion
learning not to attack people that have religion

anyway...OK means OK to me...i'm not sure about others :omg:

p/s:- actually in Islam the worst are the hypocrites (munafiq)

Verily! The hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire." (4.145)

A Munafiq is he who portrays to be a Muslim while he conceals Kufr in his heart. The above type of Munafiqeen were at the time of Rasulullah .Therefore, those Munafiqeen were Muslims (believers externally) but not Mu'mins (believers by heart).

Volume 1, Book 2, Number 32:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
The Prophet said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three:
1. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.
2. Whenever he promises, he always breaks it (his promise ).
3. If you trust him, he proves to be dishonest. (If you keep something as a trust with him, he will not return it.)

[Skavau]

that is the preponderant fallacy of modern times.

a single idea can and many times, is a virtual beleif system in and of itself

But Atheism in and of itself is not. It is simply disbelief in God or the belief there is no God. Saying Atheism is an ideology is like saying disbelieving in Zeus is an ideology.

example, the entire religion of Islam, the millions of books written, the hundreds of thousands of theologians and preservers and the billions of muslims that have existed is based off of what you call one simple statement or view or single metaphysical position. that is

Islam is more than a single metaphysical position. It is an entire world view, both concerning itself with what is and what ought. If Islam simply just asserted a non-descript God, then it would simply be Theism - the assertion there is a God. It would not be an ideology.

Islam however is a lot more than that.

atheism, at its core, as you understand, survives on the notion that God is Himself non existant wa iyaadhubillah. That "single metaphysical" theory in and of itself lures one to base the actions of his or her life on that premise.

Except I do not base my actions of my life on that premise. Atheism is what we use to describe those who do not believe in a God or believe there is no God. It is the notion of saying 'There is no God'.

Therefore when the concept of "man can rule or legislate laws for themselves without the need of God" is itself an entire way life (as we see in america) based on one single concept, the beleif that makes atheism, atheism.

That's Secularism.

[Trumble]

1. toleration is undisputed on top of which one must as well understand that a certain statement that someone may makle which is their evaluation of something else should not and cannot be classified as something "intolerant"

Not automatically, no. Classification should depend on content.

2. as for the possibility of wrongness, even from a strictly logical viewpoint, the side that accepts the existance of the Creator is at a win/lose situation (losing based off of his own deeds) whereas the one who rejects the existence of their Creator is in a loose/loose situation. Even from a purely logical stance it makes no sense even if one were to assume the possibility that the stance of those who accept His existence are themselves wrong.

You are confusing the logic or otherwise of holding a particular belief with arguing for the truth of that belief itself. Even then, while the argument is valid it is unsound as it involves an assumption that is patently untrue.. that we are able to choose, in isloation, whether we 'believe' something or not. Pascal's wager was shot down long ago.

The side that accepts His existence have reason and logic on their side as has most profoundednly been expounded upon by many theologians before simple me. Likewise in the contrast of this, if we were to look at its opposite, those who deny His existence, then only fallacious notions that oppose reason and logic is that which the beleif of His "non existance" stands upon.

The briefest review of any elementary philosophy of religion text will reveal that that is simply untrue. You are just presenting your own opinion, based on your own belief.

3. lastly, one does not need a material proof for the absolute existance of a thing, thus your arguement would apply only in a world were people who can only be convinced based on a literal backing of a claim.

Nobody needs material proof to believe but my argument, insofar as I have made one, depends on no such thing. Exactly the same applies belief in the non-existence of a thing. In that case you perhaps find it a lot harder to find 'proof', being much easier to prove something exists than that it doesn't... but no proof has been provided either way

[IbnAbdulHakim]

it is religion i don't believe in, not god.

so you accept the one who created you but reject what he has commanded you


......?!

[wilberhum]

well...learning means that they have the initiative to make 'peace' with the people that have religions.

learning can mean alot of things...

learning to understand
learning of the basic concept of religion
learning other culture
learning to show respect
learning to know why people love their religion
learning not to attack people that have religion

anyway...OK means OK to me...i'm not sure about others :omg:

p/s:- actually in Islam the worst are the hypocrites (munafiq)

Verily! The hypocrites will be in the lowest depths of the Fire." (4.145)

well...learning means that they have the initiative to make 'peace' with the people that have religions? I know very little about Hinduism yet there is 'peace' with my Hindu friends.

So why is necessary for me to understand your religion to make 'peace'?

More over, why is that my responsibility and you don't seam to think you have any responsibility to understand my beliefs?

I think that says a lot about you.

[boriqee]

But Atheism in and of itself is not. It is simply disbelief in God or the belief there is no God. Saying Atheism is an ideology is like saying disbelieving in Zeus is an ideology.

disbeleiving iin zeus is itself a way of life. Let me be more explanatoryt. If one beleives in Zeus as a deity to be worhsiped, then they will by default accustom their life by knowing who he was and his likings and so on and so forth. Thus it becomes a way of life for such a person i.e. religion. Likewise its opposite, the disbeleif in him equals that one will not accustom their life according tot he desire of Zeus. in other words they will adopt another way of life not centrally focused on their worship of him but rather on soemthing else. this, is called religion. So the disbeleif of zeus equals a religion and in this case it is monotheism, otherwise the belief in him equals polytheism. This is not up for dicsion im merely explaining this relaity to you for a better udnerstanding.

Islam is more than a single metaphysical position. It is an entire world view, both concerning itself with what is and what ought. If Islam simply just asserted a non-descript God, then it would simply be Theism - the assertion there is a God. It would not be an ideology.

Islam however is a lot more than that.

1. are you educating me on my religion. It is not up for discussion, im telling you, Islam is built on one single metaphysical position from which the entirety and vasteness of Islam is built, without that single metaphysical position, none of Islam would have been here to begin with. all of whatever you can attribute to Islam is due to only one them, the central pillar of whihc ALL muslims will attest to, that is what I mentioned to you earlier, that is

"there is no deity deserving of worship except Allah (God) alone" you seethe entire legislation of Islam is built on that, the entire theological works are based on this, when we pray, it is because of this, when we fast, it is because of this, when we established the charity tax, it is because of this central theme, when anything is done by due right of Islam, it is due to this central single metaphysical stance, without which Islam itself wouldn ot have existed period.
2. again that "central" world view is only based on that single metaphysical entity that being, la ilaha ilallah

Except I do not base my actions of my life on that premise. Atheism is what we use to describe those who do not believe in a God or believe there is no God. It is the notion of saying 'There is no God'.

yes you do. SInce you don't beleive in God, in His existence, then it follows that you will definately not beleive in thereality of the Day in hwihc ALla of us will be judged on account of our deeds, thus when yo adopt the philosophy of being kind to your fellow neighbor, your only doing so for the sake of what you think is right, in contradiction to doing so for the sake of the Lord of he worlds, and as is known in islam, any deeds done for other than the sake of God, is polytheism by default.

Likewise since you don't beleive in His existence, then your life will not be centered around His pleasure or commands and prohibitions rather you will by default center your life on how "you feel" and think it should be treaded upon. That is why you are thre judge of your own life instead of the One who created you, which is again another form of polytheism.

atheism is the label attributed to those who do not beleive in God, and thus their outlook on life is based on that premise, that is why it is in spite of your negation of it, a religion., But this as well, is not up for discussion, if you did'nt get it up to this point, then your simply just not going to get it, unfortunately

That's Secularism.

we know that's secularism, but where did it spring from. It sprang from the mist of atheism. Had ahteism did not come about, secualrism goes out the door in the the depths of non existance.

atheists managed to seduce the christian world, or the most of it, to quagmire of secularism beleiving in the correctness of it, and now these ideolocal inceptions are being induced upon our nation in spite of prophetic statements that gurantee that won't happen. but that is neither here nor there.

You are confusing the logic or otherwise of holding a particular belief with arguing for the truth of that belief itself.

no, Im speaking purely from a logical sense and not arguing for anything. rather in a business transaction, if I have the choice to

1. have faith that this man will help me and aid me and
2. have no faith that he will help me and aid me

and the outcome is of two fold, either 1, i have faith in him and I loose nothign as a result or 2, don't have faith in his and losse everythign as a result. From a logical point of view if I were to accept having faith in him wihtout any loose, and if Im wrong, nothign happenes, versus, not having faith in him and then if im worng, I loose everything. What is the most logical transaction.

The briefest review of any elementary philosophy of religion text will review that is simply untrue. You are just presenting your own opinion, based on your own belief.

our prophet revealed to us "the burden of proof is upon the claiment"

Since the establishement of logic and reason and the reality of His existence has been laid down throughout the eras, and now your coming into the game in opposition ot what has already been established, I ask what is yopur proof to suggest that im merely "speaking of my opinion" in spite of the fact that I restrict all of my beleifs and actiosn to only "what was already established". in other words, I have no opinion, rather I make sure I have a predecessor in whatever charges I make.

No one does not material proof to believe, but my argument, insofar as I have made one, depends on no such thing. Exactly the same applies belief in the non-existence of a thing. In that case you perhaps find it a lot harder to find 'proof', being much easier to prove something exists than that it doesn't... but no proof has been provided either way

this is patently contradictory in and of itself.

on one hand you say

but my argument, insofar as I have made one, depends on no such thing

and then in the same breath say

but no proof has been provided either way

in one instance you establish as your pillar that you don't define the reality of having literal mateial proof for it to be beleived in as a condition. That means on that basis when existing proofs hint to or point to the reality of a thing, then under such arguement, you would by default accept it due to 'evidences" and "signs" or indicators of the existance of a thing. and then on the second hand you say

"no proof has been provided" which virtually undermines your claim above. The relaity is is that such proofs, indicator, signs, and evidences have thus been furnished, but you do not see them as "proof" for the side that accepts His reality in spite of the fact that they are proofs in and of themselves.

[Anssi]

EDIT: Link Removed. In my opinion this is an Evagelization of a faith other than Islam

Pretty good site for Atheists. Works well in debunking Christians, but a lot of it applies to Muslims too.

[Skavau]

disbeleiving iin zeus is itself a way of life. Let me be more explanatoryt. If one beleives in Zeus as a deity to be worhsiped, then they will by default accustom their life by knowing who he was and his likings and so on and so forth. Thus it becomes a way of life for such a person i.e. religion. Likewise its opposite, the disbeleif in him equals that one will not accustom their life according tot he desire of Zeus.

Yes. So how does the above demonstrate that disbelieving in Zeus is itself a way of life?

in other words they will adopt another way of life not centrally focused on their worship of him but rather on soemthing else. this, is called religion. So the disbeleif of zeus equals a religion and in this case it is monotheism, otherwise the belief in him equals polytheism. This is not up for dicsion im merely explaining this relaity to you for a better udnerstanding.

Eh? The disbelief in Zeus equals a monotheistic religion? You appear unaware of what a 'way of life' is. Disbelieving in Zeus in and of itself implies no lifestyle or way of life - it only implies disbelief in Zeus.

If disbelieving in Zeus resulted in the framework of a specific belief system - then it would be a way of life. But as it does not, it is not. A way of life is a positive assertion. You appear to define anything as a way of life and reduce the meaning of it to arbitrariness.

1. are you educating me on my religion. It is not up for discussion, im telling you, Islam is built on one single metaphysical position from which the entirety and vasteness of Islam is built, without that single metaphysical position, none of Islam would have been here to begin with.

Islam asserts more than simply believing in God. That is why it is a way of life. Islam may be based from a specific metaphysical viewpoint, but the way of life in Islam itself comes from the scriptures. Atheism is not at all like that, it is just a rejection of a single metaphysical viewpoint.

A way of life from something is something that asserts it. Islam is a way of life and it asserts it. Atheism does not.

yes you do. SInce you don't beleive in God, in His existence, then it follows that you will definately not beleive in thereality of the Day in hwihc ALla of us will be judged on account of our deeds, thus when yo adopt the philosophy of being kind to your fellow neighbor, your only doing so for the sake of what you think is right, in contradiction to doing so for the sake of the Lord of he worlds, and as is known in islam, any deeds done for other than the sake of God, is polytheism by default.

Atheism is actually the result of my beliefs regarding God (or lack thereof). My ethical decisions are separate from the disbelief in God. I do not even concern myself with the non-existence of God when considering ethical values.

Irrespective, if all of the above are indeed consequences of Atheism - then Atheism is still not a way of life because Atheism in and of itself is a single viewpoint on a single metaphysical assertion.

Likewise since you don't beleive in His existence, then your life will not be centered around His pleasure or commands and prohibitions rather you will by default center your life on how "you feel" and think it should be treaded upon. That is why you are thre judge of your own life instead of the One who created you, which is again another form of polytheism.

No. All Atheists have in common is that they all agree on a single metaphysical viewpoint. You do not know how Atheists approach ethical systems and neither do I. There is no fluency because Atheism implies nor asserts not ethical assertions.

atheism is the label attributed to those who do not beleive in God, and thus their outlook on life is based on that premise, that is why it is in spite of your negation of it, a religion.,

Except that saying my outlook in life is based on Atheism is equal to saying my outlook on life is based on my disbelief in Zeus, Brahma and Odin. None of them are true since they are completely meaningless in my day to day functions.

And moreover, do you even know what a religion is? A religion is a system of common beliefs about reality (both is and/or ought) and an more often than not an acquired sense of community amongst the adherents. Saying Atheism is a religion is like saying not playing chess is a hobby. It is like saying Disbelieving in Zeus, Odin and Thor is a religion and it is like saying that any viewpoint automatically becomes a way of life.

we know that's secularism, but where did it spring from. It sprang from the mist of atheism. Had ahteism did not come about, secualrism goes out the door in the the depths of non existance.

Perhaps, Perhaps not. Irrespective of the origins of Secularism, it does not make Atheism a way of life. All it shows is that some Atheists advocated Secularism. The definition of Atheism still remains untouched.

[snakelegs]

so you accept the one who created you but reject what he has commanded you


......?!

i don't know that he commanded me anything because i don't subscribe to any religion.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i don't know that he commanded me anything because i don't subscribe to any religion.

do you believe God to be allwise?

because if you do, it is common knowledge that you do not make something without a manual, if it is a bit too complicated you even send an instructor.


I consider it foolish to think God would create an earth and not set any instructions or instructors.


you let me know what you think

[snakelegs]

do you believe God to be allwise?

because if you do, it is common knowledge that you do not make something without a manual, if it is a bit too complicated you even send an instructor.


I consider it foolish to think God would create an earth and not set any instructions or instructors.


you let me know what you think

yes, i believe god to be all wise. as for the manual - i simply don't know.
i can't conceive of god being confined to a religion - to me, he is beyond religion.
i'm doing good to believe in god! until fairly recent years, i never concerned myself with whether or not he existed at all - though i've never been an atheist. (some agnostics believe in god, some don't)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

yes, i believe god to be all wise. as for the manual - i simply don't know.
i can't conceive of god being confined to a religion - to me, he is beyond religion.
i'm doing good to believe in god! until fairly recent years, i never concerned myself with whether or not he existed at all - though i've never been an atheist. (some agnostics believe in god, some don't)

Congratulations on your conclusion, however its not enough you still got a ways to go.



Do you believe in the one-ness of God?!
Do you think he is capable of selecting his most beloved and humbled servent to bring the rest of humanity to being civil?! (ie giving up evil and corruption and worshipping him in peace)
Do you think He (Allaah) is capable of causing the supernatural?! (think of all the inexplicable occurances aswell as the recently found crack in the moon)
Do you believe in justice?!

Just ask yourself these questions, and slowly if you have a sincere heart, you will realise that without religion you have no answer, and no destination... why would God let humans be in such a state?!... in his mercy he sends religion

[snakelegs]

Congratulations on your conclusion, however its not enough you still got a ways to go.



Do you believe in the one-ness of God?!
Do you think he is capable of selecting his most beloved and humbled servent to bring the rest of humanity to being civil?! (ie giving up evil and corruption and worshipping him in peace)
Do you think He (Allaah) is capable of causing the supernatural?! (think of all the inexplicable occurances aswell as the recently found crack in the moon)
Do you believe in justice?!

Just ask yourself these questions, and slowly if you have a sincere heart, you will realise that without religion you have no answer, and no destination... why would God let humans be in such a state?!... in his mercy he sends religion

yes, i believe in the one-ness of god and of course he could cause the supernatural.
about the rest, i do not know, but my mind is not closed. (though i admit -i don't like religion.)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Historically its impossible to deny that men came claiming to be prophets sent by God... the rest you gotta decide.


As for your hatred for religion, you should only hate what causes corruption, if you could see through my eyes, you would see that without islaam the corruption would have been far greater.... islaam is helping to fight it...

[snakelegs]

Historically its impossible to deny that men came claiming to be prophets sent by God... the rest you gotta decide.


As for your hatred for religion, you should only hate what causes corruption, if you could see through my eyes, you would see that without islaam the corruption would have been far greater.... islaam is helping to fight it...

i do not have hatred for religion - i just don't really see a need for a religion in order to worship god. i believe religions are man-made institutions that come between an individual and god. and eventually, institutions not only become corrupt, but their self-perpetuation eventually becomes the top priority.
who knows? my views could change, but this is where i am right now.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i do not have hatred for religion - i just don't really see a need for a religion in order to worship god. i believe religions are man-made institutions that come between an individual and god. and eventually, institutions not only become corrupt, but their self-perpetuation eventually becomes the top priority.
who knows? my views could change, but this is where i am right now.

do you believe a school and university come in between a man and his right to operate on another man?! or his right to prescribe medecine?! or his right to build a running car?!

no! in the same manner, we need guidance... how can we possibly expect to know best?!..

[snakelegs]

do you believe a school and university come in between a man and his right to operate on another man?! or his right to prescribe medecine?! or his right to build a running car?!

no! in the same manner, we need guidance... how can we possibly expect to know best?!..

i don't think they are comparable.
i don't know if we need guidance beyond our innate sense of morality and ethics.
i am not saying that you are wrong - just that i don't know.
personally, i don't feel a need for a religion in order to worship god. maybe it is because i was not raised in any religion so have never belonged to one.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ just out of curiousity, have you ever worshipped God?!

[snakelegs]

yes, i worship god. i pray too. (mainly to give thanks)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ how?! (hope im not asking too much :--$)

[snakelegs]

i talk to god and i appreciate him through his works = all the beauties and mysteries of nature.
i know - it's a bit weird. :giggling:

[boriqee]

Yes. So how does the above demonstrate that disbelieving in Zeus is itself a way of life?


Eh? The disbelief in Zeus equals a monotheistic religion? You appear unaware of what a 'way of life' is. Disbelieving in Zeus in and of itself implies no lifestyle or way of life - it only implies disbelief in Zeus.

If disbelieving in Zeus resulted in the framework of a specific belief system - then it would be a way of life. But as it does not, it is not. A way of life is a positive assertion. You appear to define anything as a way of life and reduce the meaning of it to arbitrariness.


Islam asserts more than simply believing in God. That is why it is a way of life. Islam may be based from a specific metaphysical viewpoint, but the way of life in Islam itself comes from the scriptures. Atheism is not at all like that, it is just a rejection of a single metaphysical viewpoint.

A way of life from something is something that asserts it. Islam is a way of life and it asserts it. Atheism does not.


Atheism is actually the result of my beliefs regarding God (or lack thereof). My ethical decisions are separate from the disbelief in God. I do not even concern myself with the non-existence of God when considering ethical values.

Irrespective, if all of the above are indeed consequences of Atheism - then Atheism is still not a way of life because Atheism in and of itself is a single viewpoint on a single metaphysical assertion.


No. All Atheists have in common is that they all agree on a single metaphysical viewpoint. You do not know how Atheists approach ethical systems and neither do I. There is no fluency because Atheism implies nor asserts not ethical assertions.


Except that saying my outlook in life is based on Atheism is equal to saying my outlook on life is based on my disbelief in Zeus, Brahma and Odin. None of them are true since they are completely meaningless in my day to day functions.

And moreover, do you even know what a religion is? A religion is a system of common beliefs about reality (both is and/or ought) and an more often than not an acquired sense of community amongst the adherents. Saying Atheism is a religion is like saying not playing chess is a hobby. It is like saying Disbelieving in Zeus, Odin and Thor is a religion and it is like saying that any viewpoint automatically becomes a way of life.


Perhaps, Perhaps not. Irrespective of the origins of Secularism, it does not make Atheism a way of life. All it shows is that some Atheists advocated Secularism. The definition of Atheism still remains untouched.

I guess my previous evaluation became all the more truer

if you did'nt get it up to this point, then your simply just not going to get it, unfortunately

have a nice day

[Isambard]

What previous point? You created a strawman based on your misunderstanding of negative statements.

[syilla]

More over, why is that my responsibility and you don't seam to think you have any responsibility to understand my beliefs?

I think that says a lot about you.

do i have to show it to you? :uhwhat

anyway thanks.

p/s:- sorry for being offtopic.

[Trumble]

so you accept the one who created you but reject what he has commanded you

......?!

A reasonable enough position. Accepting God as existing and as Creator does not necessarily require the associated beliefs that He requires worship, has any need to 'command' anybody, that He would issue such commands by using prophets, etc, etc. God stripped of the obvious anthropomorphisms of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is a very interesting concept and the basis of much 'belief', especially in scientific circles.

[jouju]

am praying you find solace in islaam
personally i find it disturbing when one doesnt believe in Allah,OUR CREATOR...The creator of the universe
Allah's signs are everywhere...But then its ur decision...am not saying i'll respect it...coz i bliv its wrong but icant judge you for who ur...for ur choice in life. All i can do is tell u abt islaam...About Allah,ur creator...and pray to AllAH TO GUIDE you

BUT i do have a something for you to think about...
Wats d first thing u say wen u have problems/ur loved one is on the verge of death....???or even if u want something soo bad...
Dont u turn to God(without even thinking twice????)??

Allahumma ihdinaa

Please take no offense in wat av said

[IbnAbdulHakim]

God stripped of the obvious anthropomorphisms of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is a very interesting concept and the basis of much 'belief', especially in scientific circles.

what do you mean by this?!

[wilberhum]

do i have to show it to you? :uhwhat

anyway thanks.

p/s:- sorry for being offtopic.

No, not at all. I see no reason to. For me, knowledge of my beliefs is not a Condition of friendship.

[Woodrow]

Trying to understand exactly what the writer of the OP (Original Post) is looking for I decided to finaly check the dictionary and find out for certain if I really did understand what a theist is. I was using the basic definition that a theist is a person who believes in at least one God. well here is what I eventually found:

It is possible to categorize views about deities in a variety of ways. One common procedure is to classify views about the existence of deities. This classification system categorizes view about deities as:

Theism — The belief that gods or deities exist and interact with the universe.
Atheism — A lack of belief that gods exist.
Deism — The belief that a god or gods exists, but does not interact with the universe.
Agnosticism — The belief that there is no way to know about gods or deities.

Some classifications group atheism and agnosticism together under the classification of nontheism — absence of clearly identified belief in any deity.

The main subcategories of theism are:

polytheism — The belief in and worship of multiple gods or deities.

monotheism — The belief in and worship of a single god.



This taxonomy is based on beliefs about the existence of god or gods. Other taxonomies are possible. For example, a different taxonomy is based on beliefs about the nature or characteristics (rather than the existence) of God or the gods. Examples include:

pantheism — The belief that God and the universe are equivalent
or belief that acknowledges other gods.
panentheism — The belief that the universe is part of God
dystheism or maltheism — the belief that God is not, as is often assumed, good, but is actually evil

There is no specific source for this, just various dictionary definitions.

So quite simply an atheist is a nontheist, not a theist and theists believe:

monotheism — The belief in and worship of a single god

polytheism — The belief in and worship of multiple gods or deities.

pantheism — The belief that God and the universe are equivalent
or belief that acknowledges other gods.

panentheism — The belief that the universe is part of God

dystheism or maltheism — the belief that God is not, as is often assumed, good, but is actually evil

With that out of the way my personal opinion would be that the worse theist is a maltheist.

[boriqee]

God stripped of the obvious anthropomorphisms of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition is a very interesting concept and the basis of much 'belief', especially in scientific circles.

excuse me sir, but what revealed knowledge do you have that necessitates you have detailed knowledge about what tajseem (anthropomorphism) is and what things are not. Islam came with the asl "laysa kamithlihi shay" that is "there is no likeness i.e. anthropomorphism to Him. The Islamic doctrine freed this concept from Him and became the criterion in how Allah or God is to be viewed in spite of those who have an opinion contrary to this. please explain where anthropmorphism is infused in the Islamic doctrine (please don't incorperate other doctrines and mend it with Islam)

thank you

[boriqee]

What previous point? You created a strawman based on your misunderstanding of negative statements.

this is coming from somoene who is himself upon a strawman position. The arguements speak for themselves. as was said, if you didn't get it up till this popint, your just not gonna get it

[czgibson]

Greetings,

this is coming from somoene who is himself upon a strawman position. The arguements speak for themselves. as was said, if you didn't get it up till this popint, your just not gonna get it

This has nothing to do with 'not getting it'; you have given arguments that are philosophically worthless and misrepresented the positions of others. Being patronising does not help your cause much either.

Peace

[Skavau]

this is coming from somoene who is himself upon a strawman position. The arguements speak for themselves. as was said, if you didn't get it up till this popint, your just not gonna get it

Your logic does not add up. You seem to profess that not being a part of something is a lifestyle in and of itself.

[Trumble]

excuse me sir, but what revealed knowledge do you have that necessitates you have detailed knowledge about what tajseem (anthropomorphism) is and what things are not. Islam came with the asl "laysa kamithlihi shay" that is "there is no likeness i.e. anthropomorphism to Him. The Islamic doctrine freed this concept from Him and became the criterion in how Allah or God is to be viewed in spite of those who have an opinion contrary to this. please explain where anthropmorphism is infused in the Islamic doctrine (please don't incorperate other doctrines and mend it with Islam)

Anthropomorphism means endowing God (in this case) with the characteristics of human beings. As a (pre-Islamic) philosopher once said, if triangles had a God it would have three sides. Obviously we are not talking about physical appearance here, at least in the Islamic tradition, but in my opinion (and I do not expect you to agree with it!) other traits attributed to God are clearly anthropomorphic, such as the requirement to be worshipped, the need to create something to do the worshipping (in short, an ego), to command (or even have wishes and desires that lead to a need to command), or any idea of 'judgement'. In the earlier traditions it's far more obvious, full of ideas of a wrathful God, jealous God, etc.

As I said, I do not expect you to agree with me. I believe God to be a wholly human construct rather than a metaphysical reality, which is obviously a position any theist by definition must find totally unacceptable.

[al-muslimah]

So what is your defination of evil? Atheist.--by wilbehumm

Anyone who hates and fights against the truth, Allah's religion is pure evil.Not all atheists in fact some are very OPEN MINDED unlike wilberhumm since you devot your time debating with a pure religion.

[Muezzin]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

Well, I certainly don't see atheists as the agents of Satan or anything. I don't actually mind either way. I'd prefer if more people became Muslim, but because there should be no compulsion in religion, I choose to try and lead by example as opposed to getting all evangelical. That said, when certain atheists get all evangelical, it's just as irritating as crazy religious preacher dudes.

Otherwise, it's just 'well, such and such doesn't believe in God. I don't hate such and such for that, but I wished he or she saw it my way, because the way I see things brings me happiness, and I want such and such to be happy as well. Oh well. Just be nice.'

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

It's the Internet. Conflict is, like, lubricant.

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

Yeah, but you live across the pond. In the UK, it's fine. British stiff upper lip, or something in the Canadian and American water? You tell me. :p

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Depends on the person, I think. Like I said, the evangelical (read: negative, loud-mouthed and intent on destroying people's sense of hope) atheists are more likely to get a heated reaction. Heated reactions are not the correct way of dealing with things, obviously, but there it is. I mean, look at Czgibson on this site. Theologically that member disagrees with and even criticises Muslims and Islam, but he does not do so in an aggressive manner, and so is treated with the proper respect. It's only when the nutters (be they religious or non-religious) come shouting insanity from the mountains that we get 'flame wars'.

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

Yeah. War zones are bad. Especially on the Net. It means I lose out on sleep for deleting posts. Bleh.

[wilberhum]

So what is your defination of evil? Atheist.--by wilbehumm

Anyone who hates and fights against the truth, Allah's religion is pure evil.Not all atheists in fact some are very OPEN MINDED unlike wilberhumm since you devot your time debating with a pure religion.

Anyone who hates and fights against the truth? That would be your version of the truth, right?
And I'm evil because I debate against what you think is a "Pure Religion"?

But then you also think the PKK are good Muslims. :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling: :giggling::giggling:

So it is obvious that you define many things based on misunderstanding and lack of knowledge. :hiding:

[Pygoscelis]

I think that there are very few people who are atheists.I mean its hard to believe that there is no one there, just science and evolution.

I find it interesting that you'd say this, because this is something I've encountered a few times in theists, and I've experienced it myself from the opposite side.

Often a hard core theist will tell me that I am not an atheist but just am denying God and pretending he doesn't exist. Such people seem to have difficulty even imagining the concept of their being no God. At first I found these folks offensive (essentially they are calling me a liar when I say I'm an atheist) but then I realized I've experienced the same view.

For a number of years I had difficulty accepting that anybody COULD believe in Gods, thinking they all just went along with it more as a cultural thing than an actual belief thing, and that they didn't actually deep down believe it was real.

Its an interesting phenomenon from both angles. I think its hard for many of us to paradigm shift into belief/disbelief and imagine it a position one could truly hold.

[------]

:salamext:

^^^^^ What is your definition of 'God'?

[Pygoscelis]

BUT i do have a something for you to think about...
Wats d first thing u say wen u have problems/ur loved one is on the verge of death....???or even if u want something soo bad...
Dont u turn to God(without even thinking twice????)??

No. That old line "there are no atheists in foxholes" is simply not true (both literaly (there are atheistic soldier associations) and figuratively). And even if it was true that people turned to God in desperate times, like say in the foxhole example praying to survive, wouldn't that only prove that desperate people will latch onto any kind of hope be it rational or not? Desperate people latch onto irrational things for false hope quite often too.

[Pygoscelis]

:salamext:

^^^^^ What is your definition of 'God'?

In this case I refer to the specific God as presented by religions, most specifically the christian one as that was the one I was faced with most when I had difficulty believing anybody could believe it.

I still today have difficulty believing that any Christian could truly believe in the bible as literal truth, all the stories, many of them fantasic, some of them contradictory, most of them tracable to earlier religions

Part of why I've had difficulty accepting that people actually believe the claims is because I can examine the claim and mindset and try to extrapolate how people who believe it would behave and it doesn't match up.

For example most devout christians i know say they believe in inherited sin, and that they are to be punished for Adam's deeds, but then if I ask them in a non-religious context if children should be held responsible for the actions of their parents they tell me no. Or they tell me that I should accept Jesus' sacrifice to whipe clean my sin, but then I ask them in a non-religoius context if they think somebody should be allowed to volunteer to take the punishment for a criminal and the criminal walk off unpunished, and they say no.

[------]

:salamext:

But have you looked at God from the Islamic point of view?

[boriqee]

Greetings,


This has nothing to do with 'not getting it'; you have given arguments that are philosophically worthless and misrepresented the positions of others. Being patronising does not help your cause much either.

Peace

that worthlessness is only dependent on your "lack of logic" that had already been exposed, thus whether it is worthless or not is dependent on a case by case scenario. by the way, being blunt is not tantamont to patronizing.

Anthropomorphism means endowing God (in this case) with the characteristics of human beings. As a (pre-Islamic) philosopher once said, if triangles had a God it would have three sides.

thats the problem with the philosophers to begin with, They speak about His nature without any basis except the basis of what their specualtive reasoning concocted rather than revealed knowledge.

Obviously we are not talking about physical appearance here, at least in the Islamic tradition, but in my opinion (and I do not expect you to agree with it!) other traits attributed to God are clearly anthropomorphic, such as the requirement to be worshipped,

how in this universe does "the requirement of worship" equals anthropomorphism. If anthropomorphism means as you have explained it (likening the Deity of God to human like attributes) then explain where has any man demanded himself to be worshipped (note, this is different than people wanting to worship such man). Outside of the japenese emperors and certain other emperors who viewed themselves as gods, it is not form the normal characterisitcs of man that they have the attribute of "requiring themsleves to be worshipped" thus on what basis does "requirement of worship" equal anthropomorphism

the need to create something to do the worshipping (in short, an ego),

Firstly, it is from the Attributes of Allah that He is "al-Ghanee" i.e. the self sufficient. That means the attribute of "need" is free from Him and He is free from it. It is not from due right of logic that a diety who has ultimate opower has the attribute of "need".

likewise the idea that 'to be worshipped" is not an attribute of His at all.

Secondly, Allah is mutakabir, or mostly translated as well to my knowledge the best word in english is "arrogant". Arrogance when accompanied with a being that has deficiencies equals an unpalatible attitude and behavior. When such an attribute is applied to a diety of which has no deficiencies at all, then the unpalattibleness is stripped, for The only one who has full right to such an attribute, is one who possess all power and ability by which there is no power and ability except through that deity.

that has nothing to do with "ego" to begin with. There is no attribute of Allah called 'ego" that we know of.

to command (or even have wishes and desires that lead to a need to command), or any idea of 'judgement'

.

Here is the deficiency in reason that allowed the Islamic theologians to forever blast the philosophers back into the dpeths of inaceptence, at least in the arena of understanding the divine. The idea of anthropomorphism (from here on I will use the word tajseem for anthropomorphism since it is muc shorter), the idea of tajseem is that the Attributes of creation are attributed ot thre divine. ANd then when such people come across such texts of attributes like will, and so forth, then by interpret that that such texts at making tajseem of God. But when such ytexts are from God Himself, or His messengers, it is not that it is attributing tajseem to HIm, rather we udnerstand from it that He granted us those characterisics within the confines of how we are created (with human tissue, blood, size, amount of brain capacity and usage. That is after all, according to logic and reason, we at one point in time, never existed, while He was, and since He was, He always had His attributes, thus it is we who are being likened to Allah in some of these attributes by due right of His granting some of those Attributes to us.

In the earlier traditions it's far more obvious, full of ideas of a wrathful God, jealous God, etc

.

In the earlier traditions of what.

As I said, I do not expect you to agree with me. I believe God to be a wholly human construct rather than a metaphysical reality, which is obviously a position any theist by definition must find totally unacceptable.

ahh, and thats why you formed your opinion of us making tajseem of the Divine, due to an idea of Him being a human construct which lands us back to square one which I elabroated in earlier posts.

on what grounds is the lack of His existance the preponderant view according to the realm of logic and reason.

I appreciate your being open and reply

[boriqee]

Part of why I've had difficulty accepting that people actually believe the claims is because I can examine the claim and mindset and try to extrapolate how people who believe it would behave and it doesn't match up.

For example most devout christians i know say they believe in inherited sin, and that they are to be punished for Adam's deeds, but then if I ask them in a non-religious context if children should be held responsible for the actions of their parents they tell me no. Or they tell me that I should accept Jesus' sacrifice to whipe clean my sin, but then I ask them in a non-religoius context if they think somebody should be allowed to volunteer to take the punishment for a criminal and the criminal walk off unpunished, and they say no.

And that right there is the problem and represents the fullest extent of innovation in religion, you are using the bida i.e. innovations, the concoctions of the misguided as a tool to the affirmation of the lack of His existance.

our prophet has revealed to us that the jews have divided their religion into 71 sects, the christians into 72, and the muslims will divide into 73 sects, all of whcih will reside in the fire EXCEPT those who follow my way and the way of my companions.

in other words, whatever idea was not among the school of thought of the prophets, the beleifs that were laid down by the prophets is considered to have no basis, and the route of which such ideas that have no basis and then be attributed to religion of the prophets can only come from the route of bida i.e. innovated concepts and practices of which God and His messengers are free from.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

that worthlessness is only dependent on your "lack of logic" that had already been exposed, thus whether it is worthless or not is dependent on a case by case scenario. by the way, being blunt is not tantamont to patronizing.

Um, ok. Try reading some modern philosophy - you'll see what I mean. The vast majority of philosophers since Hume have rejected the arguments you've given.

When was this 'lack of logic' exposed, by the way?

Peace

[Isambard]

Greetings,


Um, ok. Try reading some modern philosophy - you'll see what I mean. The vast majority of philosophers since Hume have rejected the arguments you've given.

When was this 'lack of logic' exposed, by the way?

Peace

I think he's referring to his own arguements :okay:

Strange that some people can't imagine someone w/o a belief in a deity. I honestly can't imagine the reverse.

Despite my study of religion and my talking with believers, I still get the feeling they're pulling my leg...:hiding:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Strange that some people can't imagine someone w/o a belief in a deity. I honestly can't imagine the reverse.

I think I can. I realise that there are many people who claim to believe in god, but don't really. My dad is one of them - he's Church of Scotland, but really he couldn't give two stuffs about religion.

But I'm sure there are people who really do believe in god. My Irish grandmother was definitely one of them. The priest at her funeral described her as 'a faith-filled woman', and he wasn't wrong. She used to pray for at least an hour a day as long as I knew her, whether she went to mass that day or not, and as she drew nearer to the end of her life that increased to around five or six hours a day of solid praying. She believed alright.

She never found out I was an atheist. It would have shocked her deeply. For her, atheists were basically pure evil. She came from a time and a place where it was still OK to think like that.

Despite my study of religion and my talking with believers, I still get the feeling they're pulling my leg...:hiding:

I'm sure in the main they mean well, and mean what they say.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

the christians into 72

Christians are divided into much much more churches/denominations/sects.

[Pygoscelis]

And that right there is the problem and represents the fullest extent of innovation in religion, you are using the bida i.e. innovations, the concoctions of the misguided as a tool to the affirmation of the lack of His existance.

I have less difficulty imagining people truly believing in some abstract concept of "God", a life force (such as chi) or an unseen creator (such as deists beleive). But when you attribute fantastic stories to said God, and those stories are clearly derived from earlier ones, I just have trouble accepting that people actually believe it. I keep suspecting they are pretending, to go along with their culture.

And as I said I've seen this same thought process from the other side, people who cant imagine somebody truly not believing in God. Those are the ones who tell me I'm not really an atheist, that I'm either lying to them or refusing to admit to myself that God exists for some selfish reason such as I wish to sin. They just don't seem able to conceive that I actually don't believe in God at all.

[Trumble]

on what grounds is the lack of His existance the preponderant view according to the realm of logic and reason.

It isn't the preponderant view... neither position is. It doesn't even require "modern" philosophy, the same old arguments have been recycled for the best part of two millennia. The trouble is that arguments both ways, beimg perfectly respectable philosophical ones, rely on 'logic' and 'reason'. All, however have certain assumptions as premises the truth of which the other side can never accept. Your theologians don't 'blast' anybody anywhere any more than the philosophers do.

Personally I decided 'logic and reason' was a huge red herring when it comes to religion years ago. Whatever ultimate reality may be it is far too big for such limited concepts to grasp, and like most who follow any Eastern tradition I put far more weight in experiential religion. Revealed religion is no more an a person or persons' attempt to record and interpret such experiences. IMHO, obviously.. you won't agree with that, either!

[Pygoscelis]

If there is an all powerfull God and he wishes to be known and understood, then he would be known and understood. There would be no need for holy books, prophets, or preachers. We would simply know what he wished us to know. To claim anything less is to limit God's omnipotence.

So I say the mere existence of the holy books proves either that they are false or that the God they depict does not wish to be clearly known to and understood by us all.

[Woodrow]

If there is an all powerfull God and he wishes to be known and understood, then he would be known and understood.

We really do not know that. We have no way of knowing what Allaah(swt) wishes for himself as he is beyond our concepts of needs and desires.

There would be no need for holy books, prophets, or preachers. We would simply know what he wished us to know.

Some things we do know is that Allaah(swt) created us to worship him of our own free will. Free will entails knowing and understanding as many choices and options as possible. To know simply because we do not have a need to know anything else would not be free choice. So we do have to be faced with the task to learn and choose. That is one reason for the need of Prophets(PBUH), preachers(scholars) and Holy Books.

To claim anything less is to limit God's omnipotence.

Or it verifies our free will.

So I say the mere existence of the holy books proves either that they are false or that the God they depict does not wish to be clearly known to and understood by us all.

Free will gives us the ability to choose. Allaah(swt)'s understanding us is not the same as us needing to learn and understanding what We need of Allaah(swt)

[Pygoscelis]

Free will entails knowing and understanding as many choices and options as possible.

And God making us know and understand what God wishes us to know does not limit those options or choices. It does not limit free will for God to give us a perfect understanding of what he wishes us to know. We would then still be free to reject him.

That people exist who are not aware of God or who do not believe in God (as opposed to people who do believe but refuse to follow) and that people exist who in all sincerity get the message wrong and follow the wrong religion shows that God wishes this to be the case. If God didn't intend it and yet it happens, that limits Gods power.

I think that may explain why there are so many theists running around (like nevesirth in the thread above) who will not accept that non believers (as opposed to non-followers or rebellers) exist. I think the thought that people could exist who actually do not believe may threaten their world view, so they can't accept it.

[Resigned]

We really do not know that. We have no way of knowing what Allaah(swt) wishes for himself as he is beyond our concepts of needs and desires.

Therein lies the problem, that once again where god could maintain an ongoing communication with us, he selects not to, thereby making it more difficult to "choose" him as the "correct god." One could argue that in the Old Testament, for example -- somewhat less frequently in the New -- god's presence in man's domain was far more evident. Conveniently, man was also far more superstitious and less scientifically knowledgeable at the same time. Do we have a chicken and the egg dynamic here? Is it, "as we got more technological, god 'changed his mind' about his level of involvement"? Or, is it "god fades into obscurity as man's technology grants him greater knowledge of his environment"? (I opt for the latter).

I readily acknowledge the entity Theists assert is unknowable and beyond human perception and understanding. Given those three qualifications (among numerous others), I accept that what you assert does not exist (until such time as you offer your case for “its” existence). The attributes of god in terms of perceiving him externally are precisely the same as that of nothingness. And so it is. We both agree completely on these characteristic issues, and the only bone of contention is our conclusions. You conclude that his being indistinguishable from nothingness supports his existence, and I conclude it defines his lack of same.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

If there is an all powerfull God and he wishes to be known and understood.

Whenever there cometh down a Sura, they look at each other, (saying), "Doth anyone see you?" Then they turn aside: Allah hath turned their hearts (from the light); for they are a people that understand not.

[Surah Al-Tawba Verse 127]

tafsir of ibn abbas radhiallahu anhu

(And whenever a surah is revealed) whenever Gabriel brings down a surah exposing the fault of the hypocrites and the Prophet (pbuh) used to recite to them, (they) the hypocrites (look one at another (as who should say): Doth anybody) among the sincere believers (see you? Then they turn away) from the prayer, the sermon, the Truth and guidance. (Allah turns away their hearts) from the Truth and guidance; it is also said: they swerved from the Truth and guidance, and so Allah swerved their hearts from the Truth and guidance (because they are a folk who understand not) nor believe in the command of Allah.

Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.

[Surah Yusuf Verse 2]

Allaah has given Quran, prophets, messengers, signs everyday. But you want to see angels divide the skies with a message...

If their spurning is hard on thy mind, yet if thou wert able to seek a tunnel in the ground or a ladder to the skies and bring them a sign,- (what good?). If it were Allah's will, He could gather them together unto true guidance: so be not thou amongst those who are swayed by ignorance (and impatience)!

[Surah Al-Anaam Verse 35]

[------]

:salamext:

You conclude that his being indistinguishable from nothingness supports his existence, and I conclude it defines his lack of same.

Erm if you think about this logically, you wouldn’t come to this conclusion. When in distress, who do u turn to?! When no one listens to you, who do u turn to?! When everyone abandons you, who do u turn to?!

Answer honestly from within your mind, because it looks like to me that your heart is not ready to accept the fact that God ‘exists’, therefore try accepting this FACT with your brain. [Exists is in inverted commas as He always was there, so we cannot assign a verb to Him, e.g. ‘exists’]

Pygoscelis:

We would then still be free to reject him.

As some people do.

… get the message wrong and follow the wrong religion shows that God wishes this to be the case. If God didn't intend it and yet it happens, that limits Gods power.

No really, because the truth is is front of everyone, and whether they choose to accept it or deny it, that is up to them. How is it limiting God's power when people have their own free will?!

[Skavau]

Erm if you think about this logically, you wouldn’t come to this conclusion. When in distress, who do u turn to?! When no one listens to you, who do u turn to?! When everyone abandons you, who do u turn to?!

Some might say God. I do not since I do not believe God exists.

Even if I did try to turn to God in the above circumstances - it would not provide evidence for God's existence.

[Resigned]

:salamext:
Erm if you think about this logically, you wouldn’t come to this conclusion. When in distress, who do u turn to?! When no one listens to you, who do u turn to?! When everyone abandons you, who do u turn to?!

Answer honestly from within your mind, because it looks like to me that your heart is not ready to accept the fact that God ‘exists’, therefore try accepting this FACT with your brain. [Exists is in inverted commas as He always was there, so we cannot assign a verb to Him, e.g. ‘exists’]

I can only respond to this by saying, and this is my opinion – that it is not logic that is suggesting the illogical to you, but emotion that is suggesting the illogical to you. It would be nice if the god paradigm were true. That would make things easier (though also depressingly unexplainable) – human knowledge would be hopeless in a god-model because that ultimate answer is forever beyond us). I’d like to live in paradise too, and see my dead loved ones, and so on. It’s just like the deep desire makes me careful about accepting models and paradigms without adequate support. That’s how we discern truth from falsehood – not what we feel about something, but what are the realities of it. Postulating a supernatural being as the cause of the natural doesn't solve anything-- it simply adds an unsolvable aspect to what might be a solvable question. As sentient beings, we are forced by our nature to adhere to some standard of knowledge. What constitutes "knowledge"? When any individual can gainsay a model without stepping up to the plate and showing why their model is true, and show cause, and display testable evidence then they are, by definition of what we know knowledge is to be, out of the game. This holds true for all claims, be they of science, or philosophy, or of theism.


How logical is it to postulate gods?

Let's look at this from another perspective. When people say they believe in an entity that cannot be seen, cannot be felt, exists outside of the natural realm in an asserted supernatural realm, that has attributes we need to worship but cannot understand or even describe, who lives in eternity in both directions, who can create existence from nothing and is uncreated himself and uses methods and means we can never know or hope to understand, that stands outside proof which is exactly why it's for certain he exists-- I would say that qualifies one as having abdicated a logical conclusion.

[kay106]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

The atheists I have met, claim they are rationalists thats why they are atheists, that they are reasoned everything out. But the arguments I have heard from them are the most irrational arguments, out there in the nonsense market!

Examples,

They claim that there was a big bang then everything came into perfect order by chance! I ask them that if you have 10 marbles > number them 1-10 > put them in a bag > blind fold yourself > then pick them out > whats the chance that they will be in their order from 1-10? almost 0. Now what about the bigger picture, this whole universe in perfect order by chance? what about dropping a glass, does it turn into fewer small glass, or is there a disastor? chaoes? can order come out of chaoes?

They say that we evolved from monkeys, i ask them if we evolved from monkeys should the monkeys still be evolving? shouldn't they have figured out how we put them in the zoo, then put some of us in the zoo? shouldn't they by now have oxford school for monkeys?

what about fossil evidence, if we have evolved shouldn't the fossil records which date back to 300-400 millions years have intermediate forms, why are the creatures on the fossil record exactly the same as now?

Did you ever ask for proof? Isn't this part of being a rationalist? That you need evidence to believe in something?

Common use your reason, God is commanding us to do it!

Sorry to my fellow atheist brothers and sisters reading this, dont mean to hurt your feelings, hope our creator guides you.

[kay106]

The atheists I have met, claim they are rationalists thats why they are atheists, that they are reasoned everything out. But the arguments I have heard from them are the most irrational arguments, out there in the nonsense market! - thats really they way I really feel in terms of arguments. In terms of personality very kind, polite, patience, curious, better personality than a lot of muslims I meet who are rude, impatient and lazy.

Examples of atheists arguments i have come across,

They claim that there was a big bang then everything came into perfect order by chance! I ask them that if you have 10 marbles > number them 1-10 > put them in a bag > blind fold yourself > then pick them out > whats the chance that they will be in their order from 1-10? almost 0. Now what about the bigger picture, this whole universe in perfect order by chance? what about dropping a glass, does it turn into fewer small glass, or is there a disastor? chaoes? can order come out of chaoes?

They say that we evolved from monkeys, i ask them if we evolved from monkeys should the monkeys still be evolving? shouldn't they have figured out how we put them in the zoo, then put some of us in the zoo? shouldn't they by now have oxford school for monkeys?

what about fossil evidence, if we have evolved shouldn't the fossil records which date back to 300-400 millions years have intermediate forms, why are the creatures on the fossil record exactly the same as now?

Did you ever ask for proof? Isn't this part of being a rationalist? That you need evidence to believe in something?

Common use your reason, God is commanding us to do it!

Sorry If I sound harsh, but thats they way i feel about the athiests I have met.

Sorry to my fellow atheist brothers and sisters reading this, I really dont mean to hurt your feelings, hope our creator guides you.

[kay106]

you guys really believe there is not hearafter?

after here we will be somewhere else.

After here > means hearafter right?

after here after here after here. Got that?

[kay106]

Some might say God. I do not since I do not believe God exists.

Even if I did try to turn to God in the above circumstances - it would not provide evidence for God's existence.

Wot is your definition of God?

[Gator]

Hello

...then everything came into perfect order by chance!

I do not see perfect order.

Take a glass of sand and pour it on the floor. Do you know the chances of that exact pile of sand happening? very close to zero.

As for the creation of the universe, I don't know. I have ideas and some things fit the way I believe things work, but proof is not within our grasp.

I hope this helps to see where you and I differ in our outlook on the universe.

Thanks.

[Gator]

you guys really believe there is not hearafter?

If by spiritual afterlife. Then yes, I do not believe.

Thanks.

[Pygoscelis]

No really, because the truth is is front of everyone, and whether they choose to accept it or deny it, that is up to them. How is it limiting God's power when people have their own free will?!

This text makes me think you may be one of the theists I was referring to, who doesn't believe in non-believers, only those who do see the "truth" but choose to reject it. I am telling you that I have seen no "truth" and there is nothing I have been aware of as truth and rejected.

[Pygoscelis]

The atheists I have met, claim they are rationalists thats why they are atheists, that they are reasoned everything out.

Well then let me be your first atheist friend who has NOT reasoned everything out. Atheism means nothing but a disbelief in god(s). I don't claim to know how the universe came to be, and I actually find it hard to believe that we ever could know this for sure.

I ask them that if you have 10 marbles > number them 1-10 > put them in a bag > blind fold yourself > then pick them out > whats the chance that they will be in their order from 1-10? almost 0.

Randomly pick them out again. Note the order they came out in. The odds of that order (which just happened) is also close to zero. Further note that if the universe had not unfolded the way it did, we may not be here to observe it. Further note that the universe is far from perfect.

They say that we evolved from monkeys

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.

i ask them if we evolved from monkeys should the monkeys still be evolving?

They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.

shouldn't they have figured out how we put them in the zoo, then put some of us in the zoo?

Ever seen "Planet of the Apes"?

what about fossil evidence, if we have evolved shouldn't the fossil records which date back to 300-400 millions years have intermediate forms

They do.

why are the creatures on the fossil record exactly the same as now?

They're not.

Did you ever ask for proof? Isn't this part of being a rationalist? That you need evidence to believe in something?

You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.

Common use your reason, God is commanding us to do it!

I don't hear her.

Sorry If I sound harsh, but thats they way i feel about the athiests I have met.

No problem.

Sorry to my fellow atheist brothers and sisters reading this, I really dont mean to hurt your feelings,

No worries

hope our creator guides you.

I'd like to meet her if she's out there.

[Pygoscelis]

you guys really believe there is not hearafter?

after here we will be somewhere else.

After here > means hearafter right?

after here after here after here. Got that?

I see no reason to believe in an afterlife or a soul, no.

The rest of this post looks like poem of some kind, but I dont understand it.

[Skavau]

The atheists I have met, claim they are rationalists thats why they are atheists, that they are reasoned everything out. But the arguments I have heard from them are the most irrational arguments, out there in the nonsense market!

Lets see.

They claim that there was a big bang then everything came into perfect order by chance! I ask them that if you have 10 marbles > number them 1-10 > put them in a bag > blind fold yourself > then pick them out > whats the chance that they will be in their order from 1-10? almost 0. Now what about the bigger picture, this whole universe in perfect order by chance? what about dropping a glass, does it turn into fewer small glass, or is there a disastor? chaoes? can order come out of chaoes?

No Atheist I know declares everything came into perfect order by chance.

Moreover, no Atheist I know believes everything is in perfect order.

Strawman.

They say that we evolved from monkeys, i ask them if we evolved from monkeys should the monkeys still be evolving? shouldn't they have figured out how we put them in the zoo, then put some of us in the zoo? shouldn't they by now have oxford school for monkeys?

You clearly have absolutely no understanding of evolution. Species are not inherently directly going to evolve into another specific species. Moreover, we did not evolve from monkeys. We and monkeys share a common ancestor.

what about fossil evidence, if we have evolved shouldn't the fossil records which date back to 300-400 millions years have intermediate forms, why are the creatures on the fossil record exactly the same as now?

There is fossil records for evolution.

Here

Did you ever ask for proof? Isn't this part of being a rationalist? That you need evidence to believe in something?

There's no such thing as proof. Only evidence and reason.

Wot is your definition of God?

Something for which there is no evidence for and there is no set definition for.

Considering there is no decent agreement of what 'God' actually is, and considering I have not come across a good definition of a God - I do not actually have one. I am ignostic regarding it.

[kay106]

HelloI do not see perfect order.

Take a glass of sand and pour it on the floor. Do you know the chances of that exact pile of sand happening? very close to zero.

I completely do not understand what you are saying, are you trying to say that if I take a glass of sand and pour it out what is the chance of that happening? what is the point you are trying to make? Is it that becuase you dont know the chances how likely that you are able to pour sand that's why there is not a creator? Sorry I am completely lost!

[kay106]

Lets see.


No Atheist I know declares everything came into perfect order by chance.

Moreover, no Atheist I know believes everything is in perfect order. .

Ok let me spell out to you what perfect order is, can you see that the clouds drop rain, then the trees souk up that rain, then the trees give us fruit oxygen. Can you see the the sun giving us energy? That the plants take in the sun light, then the cows eat the grass, then we eat the cow, can you see that everything in nature is fullfilling a function? Can you see that out hears pump blood around our body? Our lungs take in the oxygen and breathe back out carbon dioxide? Can you see that the moon goes around the earth, the earth goes around the sun, even in an atom, electrons goes around the nucleus all in an anti-clockwise fashion, can you see that's what us muslims out of our free will have to do around the kabba, in the same anticlockwise fasion?

can you see, that in nature a perfect functions being fulfilled, that everything is following a set of rules, a code of conduct, a law and order, thats why they are in a state of harmony and peace? meaning that they are not in disagreement with one another? they do what they are ment to do, shouldn't we too humans be fulling a function? Shouldn't our intellect be fulfilling a function?

Can you see that the humans in general all around the world are in a state of chaoes, confusion, that there are wars, disputes, disagreements? Hope you can understand what I mean!

Did you know the definition of Islam? It means Submitt your will to acquire peace. This is what makes you a muslim, thats why we that everying in nature that is following this code of conduct is a muslim!

Strawman.


You clearly have absolutely no understanding of evolution. Species are not inherently directly going to evolve into another specific species. Moreover, we did not evolve from monkeys. We and monkeys share a common ancestor.


There is fossil records for evolution.

Here


There's no such thing as proof. Only evidence and reason.

Definition of proof "any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it" [source - google define: proof] Why do you atheists love to play around with words, when you know what I mean?

Wheres your evidence and reason that we have a common ancestor, dont you think that by now that scientists would have called it a fact, instead of a theory, if there was enough proof, evidence, reason?

below is my evidence that evolution is still a theory: See those fossil evidence.

http://www.fossil-museum.com/ -

Cant be bothered to give you an example open your eyes and see for your self!

Something for which there is no evidence for and there is no set definition for.

Considering there is no decent agreement of what 'God' actually is, and considering I have not come across a good definition of a God - I do not actually have one. I am ignostic regarding it.

Ok let me give you a definition, God is the creator of everything that exists, he is the source of existance, peace, he is the one whom everything is dependant on, he's order is which nature follows! Do you agree on this definition? In other words do think there is such a creator, that he deserve and thanks and praise? I could give you much better answers, only on the condition that you are truly searching for the truth! If you are here to try and outsmart us, sorry I cant be bothered, your own loss, not mine.

[kay106]

I'd like to meet her if she's out there.

surely you will meet him, you dont use your brain, change your ways, now in this earth, when you meet him, he will chuck you into hell for eternitity, this is what islam teaches. Do really want to go down for eternity, you need think about this seriously, you need proof, i have give it to you!

[wilberhum]

surely you will meet him, you dont use your brain, change your ways, now in this earth, when you meet him, he will chuck you into hell for eternitity, this is what islam teaches. Do really want to go down for eternity, you need think about this seriously, you need proof, i have give it to you!

What proof have you given? I sure don't see any.

[Gator]

I completely do not understand what you are saying, are you trying to say that if I take a glass of sand and pour it out what is the chance of that happening? what is the point you are trying to make? Is it that becuase you dont know the chances how likely that you are able to pour sand that's why there is not a creator? Sorry I am completely lost!

Sure.

I'm talking about the pattern the poured sand makes. The chances of that pile of sand taking that exact shape down to the grain is very very small.

The point is the pattern that resulted had a very low probability, and there was no conscious thought behind the placement of each grain, but it did happen.

Basically I'm saying, I believe the universe is more like that poured sand (no conscous order) than your marbles marked 1 to 10 (conscious order).

Does that help you? Let me know if I'm communicating poorly.

[Trumble]

Wheres your evidence and reason that we have a common ancestor, dont you think that by now that scientists would have called it a fact, instead of a theory, if there was enough proof, evidence, reason?

No.

Gravity is 'still a theory', too.


On the marbles, the point is that while the odds of drawing out the marbles in the order 1 to 10 are small, the odds of drawing any particular combination are identical. And one combination gets drawn every time.. a different universe if you like, that to it's inhabitants (if any) might seem just as organised as our own.

[kay106]

What proof have you given? I sure don't see any.

This is a tip tip of the iceberg of proofs in Islam. You need more proof let me know. Hope that helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGs2SiBPCA

[wilberhum]

This is a tip tip of the iceberg of proofs in Islam. You need more proof let me know. Hope that helps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpGs2SiBPCA

If you think that is proof, I have a bridge I will sell you, cheep.

That is like "Preaching to the Choir". No one will believe it but the believers.

[Pygoscelis]

surely you will meet him, you dont use your brain, change your ways, now in this earth, when you meet him, he will chuck you into hell for eternitity, this is what islam teaches. Do really want to go down for eternity, you need think about this seriously, you need proof, i have give it to you!

This God of yours doesn't sound very friendly to me. He's going to chuck me into hell simply for never coming to know he exists?

[Skavau]

I completely do not understand what you are saying, are you trying to say that if I take a glass of sand and pour it out what is the chance of that happening?

You say that it is impossible for everything to come into perfect order by chance, or next to impossible. The same applies with the glass of sand example.

According to your own argument taking a glass of sand and pouring it out, is next to impossible. There are so many things that could have happened otherwise. There is even an immense amount of different sand grains that could be in the cup.

Ok let me spell out to you what perfect order is, can you see that the clouds drop rain, then the trees souk up that rain, then the trees give us fruit oxygen. Can you see the the sun giving us energy? That the plants take in the sun light, then the cows eat the grass, then we eat the cow, can you see that everything in nature is fullfilling a function?

Yes.

Now precisely where is the perfection there? You believe that the rain for example falls precisely when the plants require it? Or that the sun light shines when they need it? Seeing as in many regions on earth, rain falls regularly causing floods and destruction and in other regions, endless sunlight causes droughts - you tell me there is 'perfect order'?

can you see, that in nature a perfect functions being fulfilled, that everything is following a set of rules, a code of conduct, a law and order, thats why they are in a state of harmony and peace? meaning that they are not in disagreement with one another? they do what they are ment to do, shouldn't we too humans be fulling a function? Shouldn't our intellect be fulfilling a function?

Natural Law has no interest in human survival nor purpose. It is doing simply what it does.

Moreover, what 'function' should we humans be following?

Can you see that the humans in general all around the world are in a state of chaoes, confusion, that there are wars, disputes, disagreements? Hope you can understand what I mean!

Yes. That is also more reason to suppose disorder.

Did you know the definition of Islam? It means Submitt your will to acquire peace. This is what makes you a muslim, thats why we that everying in nature that is following this code of conduct is a muslim!

I know the definition of Islam. I remain unconvinced of its truth value.

Definition of proof "any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now is the time to produce it" [source - google define: proof] Why do you atheists love to play around with words, when you know what I mean?

Proof is not a valid way of discerning truth from falsehood in science. Nothing in science is proven.

Wheres your evidence and reason that we have a common ancestor, dont you think that by now that scientists would have called it a fact, instead of a theory, if there was enough proof, evidence, reason?

I suggest you key yourself up on the definition of theory in science. In science, a theory is a self-consistent model which explains natural phenomena. It is not a simple guess nor a hunch. The Theory of Relativity and Theory Of Gravity remain both theories.

below is my evidence that evolution is still a theory: See those fossil evidence.

http://www.fossil-museum.com/ -

"On this site you can find works by Harun Yahya that totally demolish Darwinism, as well as news reports and developments that demonstrate the global effect these works are having."

'Nuff said.

Cant be bothered to give you an example open your eyes and see for your self!

Then why should I?

Ok let me give you a definition, God is the creator of everything that exists, he is the source of existance, peace, he is the one whom everything is dependant on, he's order is which nature follows! Do you agree on this definition?

That definition above appears to a rather Pantheistic approach. But no, since I do not believe in God - I do not.

In other words do think there is such a creator, that he deserve and thanks and praise? I could give you much better answers, only on the condition that you are truly searching for the truth! If you are here to try and outsmart us, sorry I cant be bothered, your own loss, not mine.

I am here to correct falsehood when people spout it. You spouted misleading falsehood earlier and I corrected them.

[------]

This text makes me think you may be one of the theists I was referring to, who doesn't believe in non-believers, only those who do see the "truth" but choose to reject it. I am telling you that I have seen no "truth" and there is nothing I have been aware of as truth and rejected.

:salamext:

That is what the truth is lol.

[Pygoscelis]

:salamext:

That is what the truth is lol.

So you do not believe in non-belief? Are we atheists who claim we do not believe in God (as opposed to believing but refusing to follow) all liars in your eyes? I don't take offence if this is the case, I just honestly want to know if I understand you correctly.

I have experienced the opposite. For many years I was convinced that nobody truly believed in God and that they just pretended to because that is the cultural norm. I still believe that a large number of "believers" do this.

[kay106]

If you think that is proof, I have a bridge I will sell you, cheep.

That is like "Preaching to the Choir". No one will believe it but the believers.

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

Ok let me tell a little bit about these miracles,

Today is an age of science and technology. People use science see science as their ultimate criteria, but your science is LATE!

Example - What is the probability of someone 14 centrys ago, know that this whole universe was connected together in a single entity?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

what is the probality of someone 14 centuries ago knowing that this whole universe is expading?

from this we can easily conclude that the quran is far superor than that of science!

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

The quran challeges you to find a contradiction in it, has anyone ever been successful?

common use your reason!

[Gator]

This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD?

That was not what I was getting at. Did you read me response (it was short). Sorry I couldn't communicate it better.

Thanks.

[kay106]

Sure.

I'm talking about the pattern the poured sand makes. The chances of that pile of sand taking that exact shape down to the grain is very very small.

The point is the pattern that resulted had a very low probability, and there was no conscious thought behind the placement of each grain, but it did happen.

Basically I'm saying, I believe the universe is more like that poured sand (no conscous order) than your marbles marked 1 to 10 (conscious order).

Does that help you? Let me know if I'm communicating poorly.

In other words you think this whole universe come out just by chance?
Ok let me give you another example if you blow up a building, does it turn ito a few small houses, do you see planets, stars? could they be formed from an explosion, is that possible? do you the chance of a single proton being in existance by chance, just a small proton, do you know what the scientists have concluded on that? I have send you very interesting videos if you want, hope that helps.

[kay106]

Randomly pick them out again. Note the order they came out in. The odds of that order (which just happened) is also close to zero. Further note that if the universe had not unfolded the way it did, we may not be here to observe it. Further note that the universe is far from perfect.

How many big bangs were there?

[kay106]

It isn't the preponderant view... neither position is. It doesn't even require "modern" philosophy, the same old arguments have been recycled for the best part of two millennia. The trouble is that arguments both ways, beimg perfectly respectable philosophical ones, rely on 'logic' and 'reason'. All, however have certain assumptions as premises the truth of which the other side can never accept. Your theologians don't 'blast' anybody anywhere any more than the philosophers do.

Personally I decided 'logic and reason' was a huge red herring when it comes to religion years ago. Whatever ultimate reality may be it is far too big for such limited concepts to grasp, and like most who follow any Eastern tradition I put far more weight in experiential religion. Revealed religion is no more an a person or persons' attempt to record and interpret such experiences. IMHO, obviously.. you won't agree with that, either!

can you give an example? or is this another one of your athest theories?

[kay106]

If there is an all powerfull God and he wishes to be known and understood, then he would be known and understood. There would be no need for holy books, prophets, or preachers. We would simply know what he wished us to know. To claim anything less is to limit God's omnipotence.

So I say the mere existence of the holy books proves either that they are false or that the God they depict does not wish to be clearly known to and understood by us all.

How do you know what god wants and does not want, do you have proof? Do you have a revealved scripture, have you spoken to him? see what I mean about nonsense, theories, assumptions, you atheists make? Common use your reason!

[kay106]

Sorry for sounding harsh to my searching atheist brothers and sisters, I really dont mean it.

[kay106]

[QUOTE=Pygoscelis;879998]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.

[QUOTE]

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

[root]

Kay106 - Posted scientific evidence Prof More supporting Islamic claims. What a load of crap

Geee, is Islam so desperate for validation that they go to such lengths to misrepresent scientists. It's a down and out fraud that was rumbled a couple of years ago. Here is an E-Mail from prof W. Hay;

25 January 2006

Hello T.H.,

It’s a long story about how they got that clip/quote from me, and I would be happy to tell you more about it if you give me a phone call at (XXX)XXX-XXXX.

In brief, in 1983 or 1984 two Saudi's approached the Geological Society of America to locate experts on certain aspects of Geology which might Relate to the Koran. At that time our understanding was that the Saudis wanted to make it possible for science to flourish in the Arab countries as it once had, but the religious authorities stood in the way. The Royal Family sponsored a "holy man", Sheik Zindani for this project. Accordingly, I was flown to Jedda, and met with the Sheik for the better part of a week.

For me one of the questions concerned a passage in the Koran that seems to refer to internal waves in the ocean, ad the idea was that these had been discovered only recently.

I suggested that perhaps Mohammed was highly intelligent, and a good observer, and had been on a sea voyage. In case you are not aware of it, proper Islamics believe that Mohammed was uneducated, illiterate, and to attribute a high level of intelligence to him is heresy. Also, the Sheik and colleagues insisted that he never saw the sea (in spite of the fact that Mecca and Medina) are almost in sight of the Red Sea.

I suggested that perhaps he had friends who were observant sailors, again heresy. So after one long afternoon on a boat in the hot sun, all of the caveats having been rejected you come to divine inspiration! So none of my skepticism was reflected.

I gave a geological lecture at the university in Jedda, and talking with faculty there I got the impression that the assumption that the goal was to make the pursuit of science safe was essentially correct.

When I got back to the US I started to look into how old information about internal waves was, and discovered that the Vikings certainly knew about the phenomenon, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Greeks/Romans knew about it, and almost certainly the Arabs, who were the best sailors, would have had some experience with this phenomenon (in practical terms where there is a sharp interface within the water, the waves on this interface control the motion of the boat so that it does not correspond to the surface waves or currents).

We then had a conference organized by Sheik Zindani in Islamabad bringing together most all of the non-Islamic scientists he had conferred with.

We were asked to prepare papers to be published in the Conference Proceedings, and mine included what I had been able to learn about possible ancient knowledge of internal waves in the ocean. Needless to say it did not get included in the published proceedings.

We now know that all of this had another aspect. At the meeting in Pakistan it became apparent that the topic of science that should have no interference from clerics was related to the development of nuclear weapons. It has also turned out that Sheik Zindani is a major supporter of Osama bin Laden.

The parallels of Islamic fundamentalism and modern US Christian fundamentalism are amazing. My European colleagues often refer to us as Iran-west.

I did a long interview with an investigative reporter for the Wall Street Journal on Sheik Zindani and his cohorts in 2000, but unfortunately I do not have a copy of the published article anymore.

Incidentally, most of me early paleontologic career was devoted to study of coccoliths, the tiny fossils that were the topic of T. H. Huxley's famous lecture "On a Piece of Chalk."

We have so far managed to hold off "intelligent design" from the public schools here, but our local fundamentalists are very persistent.

Yours sincerely,

Bill Hay

BUMP! :hiding:

[syilla]

erm...probably he has to explain why there is a video of him saying the shahadah :hmm:

[Gator]

In other words you think this whole universe come out just by chance?

Yes.

[wilberhum]

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

Ok let me tell a little bit about these miracles,

Today is an age of science and technology. People use science see science as their ultimate criteria, but your science is LATE!

Example - What is the probability of someone 14 centrys ago, know that this whole universe was connected together in a single entity?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

what is the probality of someone 14 centuries ago knowing that this whole universe is expading?

from this we can easily conclude that the quran is far superor than that of science!

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

The quran challeges you to find a contradiction in it, has anyone ever been successful?

common use your reason!

If you understood how stupid one would have to buy a bridge, you would see how stupid one would have to be to buy what you have posted.

All that stuff has been debunked a thousand times.

[wilberhum]

can you give an example? or is this another one of your athest theories?

What is an "Atheist Theory".

How does "No god" create a theory other than "No god". :-\

[wilberhum]

[QUOTE=kay106;881489][QUOTE=Pygoscelis;879998]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

Proof? There is no proof. But there are millions of facts that back up the theories.

[Skavau]

I have a bridge I will sell it to you cheap? What the hell are you talking about, you guys make no sense, see what I mean about the most illogical claims in the nosense market? This other guy is talking about about a galls pouring sand, and somehow trying to conclude that there is not a GOD? Pure nonsense. If you guys want me to spell out to you clearly, i will only tell you if you want to know and you are searching for the truth. But if you are here to make fun of religions, you in the wrong board, this is islam.

No-one here is trying to make fun of anything. The reason you may sense hostility has everything to do with your attitude and complete ignorance towards Atheists. You have asked Atheists questions and we have responded adequately.

What do you want precisely?

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

No idea. However they would be wrong. Not every living being is made out of water. We may contain water - but we are not made from it anymore than being made from the earth.

Moreover, Muhammad was beaten to it. The Greek Philosopher, Thales of Miletus who died in 546BC also made the claim that all living things came from water. That was a long time before Muhammad.

How about these scientists who have verified these claims,

http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-h.htm

A list of about 5 scientists?

[Whatsthepoint]

what is the probablity of someone living in a desert, 14 centuries ago, knowing that every living thing is made out of water?

What about humans? Weren't we supposed to be created from clay?

[Talha777]

What about humans? Weren't we supposed to be created from clay?

And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
(An Nur 24:45)

All animals are created from water. Human beings at least are also created from mud and clay (mud requires water):

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape
(Al Hijr 15:26)

So Holy Quran explains the steps in mankind's creation, man is created from nothing, man is created from water, man is created from mud and clay, man is created from a clot of blood, man is created from a drop of sperm. All of these are factual statements, but you have to realize they are describing in steps. God created the matter from nothing, and than continued to expand on that matter into different forms and shapes until finally you get a product - the human being. Hope this clarifies.

[Resigned]

And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things.
(An Nur 24:45)

All animals are created from water. Human beings at least are also created from mud and clay (mud requires water):

We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape
(Al Hijr 15:26)

So Holy Quran explains the steps in mankind's creation, man is created from nothing, man is created from water, man is created from mud and clay, man is created from a clot of blood, man is created from a drop of sperm. All of these are factual statements, but you have to realize they are describing in steps. God created the matter from nothing, and than continued to expand on that matter into different forms and shapes until finally you get a product - the human being. Hope this clarifies.

Outside of the limited community of orthodox Islam, there is not simply "doubt" as to the content of the Koranic verses you posted as being authentic, but significant evidence to the contrary.

My first impression on reading your posting is that you will deliberately try to avoid having to deal with obvious and compelling evidence to the contrary by arbitrarily excluding it from consideration. That is, to put it mildly, an intellectually questionable debate tactic.

Oh, and the verses describing man being created from...well... all the contradictory means and methods you describe is a bit, how shall we say, contradictory?

[Pygoscelis]

How many big bangs were there?

How could we know? Perhaps none. Perhaps infinite.

[Pygoscelis]

How do you know what god wants and does not want, do you have proof? Do you have a revealved scripture, have you spoken to him? see what I mean about nonsense, theories, assumptions, you atheists make? Common use your reason!

Perhaps you didn't read my post? It rather amazes me that you could ask this after reading what you were purportedly responding to.

You attempt to limit God if you say he can't have us know what he wills us to know without all the middlemen and confusion that are prophets, holy books, etc. If you say that he IS omnipotent then clearly he intended the confusion. Do you have another explanation? And if you're thinking "so we could have free will" that doesn't make sense because we would still have free will if we had the direct and perfect knowledge. We would have the choice of if we followed and obeyed or not. In fact ONLY with the direct and perfect knowledge COULD we make an informed decision.

[Pygoscelis]

Did you ask for proof, monkeys and humans are evolving? did you ask for proof we have a common ancestor? If you have proof where is it?

Again I have to ask you to reread my post. None of these claims are mine, as I made clear by stating that they are the ideas of others. How did you miss that?

[kay106]

Kay106 - Posted scientific evidence Prof More supporting Islamic claims. What a load of crap

Geee, is Islam so desperate for validation that they go to such lengths to misrepresent scientists. It's a down and out fraud that was rumbled a couple of years ago. Here is an E-Mail from prof W. Hay;



BUMP! :hiding:

Do you have a video clip of him saying that, why are you being so gullible, and jumping to conclusions?

[kay106]

[QUOTE=wilberhum;881542][QUOTE=kay106;881489]

Actually they say we and monkeys evolved from a common ancestor, not that we evolved from monkeys. Essentially their idea is that you and a monkey have the same great great great great great great great x 2000 grandpa.


They believe that they are still evolving yes. They'll tell you that we are too.


You're exactly correct. We should ask for proof, in all things. And that is one thing that leads most atheists to being atheists.



Proof? There is no proof. But there are millions of facts that back up the theories.

Do you mean that there are a lot of facts to back up evolution? If yes can you give an example? In other words I am asking for proof? You get the definition now, common i taught my little 5 year old niece that, you being god knows how old, dont even know what proof is, and you claim your a rationalist! LOL

[kay106]

Look guys, i dont care what you think, but you guys dont know what you are missing out on, i used to be just like you once, not remembering God much, and thats the time, when I used to feel sooo miserable, anxiety, depressed, etc. Visting a psychologist they tell me that its my past experience - in other words telling me to blame it onto someone else, but as soon as i began to pray, I felt my whole heart pumping and relieving stress, it was healing my sould immediately! Then i've noticed that it was a spiritual illness i was suffering from, everying wrong you do damages your soul, thats why just like any complicated machines, we need an instruction manual.
Did you know that depression is 3rd most common cause of death in the western countries, i could easily bring the sources if you want, I think this one is from the national health organisation. What people dont realise that this is not a psychological problem but its a spiritual problem, materialism wont help!

Trust me guys the intelligence and spirituality in this religion is unbelievable, you just have to see it and experience it your self. Listen to the story of this man, he used to be a millionaire, now look how enthuasistic he is about islam, he is a revert:
http://www.islamictube.net/view_vide...key=1207172257

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

At least make the shahadah, which is the declaration of faith, this could save on the day of judgement. If your worried about what people will think, simply dont tell them-keep it to your self, take your time, this satan will always come at you with anxiety, ask God for help.

Trust me guys you just dont know what you are missing out on, and also many people dont reliase the magnitude of threat we humans are facing!

[kay106]

Again I have to ask you to reread my post. None of these claims are mine, as I made clear by stating that they are the ideas of others. How did you miss that?

So do you believe that?

[kay106]

Did you guys know that on the day of judgement, some people will have sinned sooo sooo much, but just becuase they have believe in God and his messenger, this will out weith all their bad deeds. Common guys, dont admit it here, but atleast make this declartion of faith, find out how to do it, and you could be saved, just for that, if its too difficult for you to pray, fast, etc. But at the very least admit the truth, and thank God, for everthing he has give you - this would only take you a few seconds. Did you know that scientists cant even create a human vein, what about the eyes, what about the air we breathe, what about fruits we eat, strawberries, bannas, grapes, where does all this come from? did you know that if you were to count all that you were give you will loose count? Dont you think that source deserves to be known and thanked? I really believe, just like everything fulfills a function, thats the function out intellect should fulfill, to recognise the creator, sustainer. Have you looked at a seed, how it turns into a giant tree, do you know how much programming that seeds contain? Do you know how much scientist have uncovered about the seed? less than 1&#37; I think. Do you see the intelligence in those seeds? Common at least admit the truth to your selves, you dont have to mention it here, but like i said before i would strongly advise you guys to at the very least to recognise this truth and to make the shahadah, take your time and think about it. If you guys need any help do come and ask us.

[kay106]

Perhaps you didn't read my post? It rather amazes me that you could ask this after reading what you were purportedly responding to.

You attempt to limit God if you say he can't have us know what he wills us to know without all the middlemen and confusion that are prophets, holy books, etc. If you say that he IS omnipotent then clearly he intended the confusion. Do you have another explanation? And if you're thinking "so we could have free will" that doesn't make sense because we would still have free will if we had the direct and perfect knowledge. We would have the choice of if we followed and obeyed or not. In fact ONLY with the direct and perfect knowledge COULD we make an informed decision.

God does misguide people, becuase they never listen, cant you see any clear examples here? they have brains, but they wont use them! Belive there are answers to your questions, ask someone who is knowledgable, if you really want I will find it my self, right now I am quite busy at work, slowed down on my research, but if you really want to know I will get you the answer.

I will give you this link, see this debate. This man claims that there are contraditions in the quran, the other guys prooves him wrong soo badly, but he still wont admitt it. See it for your self, see what i mean people being stupid?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fw3do0TLv6o

I am really trying to advise you, at least think about it, study into, read a few books. If your unsure about it dont ask any nonsense people who will give you their theories, ask the people of knowledge. Make sure you have enough solid proof whether accept it or reject it:-)

[kay106]

This text makes me think you may be one of the theists I was referring to, who doesn't believe in non-believers, only those who do see the "truth" but choose to reject it. I am telling you that I have seen no "truth" and there is nothing I have been aware of as truth and rejected.

Your defintion of truth is something you can see with your eyes right?

[kay106]

Outside of the limited community of orthodox Islam, there is not simply "doubt" as to the content of the Koranic verses you posted as being authentic, but significant evidence to the contrary.

My first impression on reading your posting is that you will deliberately try to avoid having to deal with obvious and compelling evidence to the contrary by arbitrarily excluding it from consideration. That is, to put it mildly, an intellectually questionable debate tactic.

Oh, and the verses describing man being created from...well... all the contradictory means and methods you describe is a bit, how shall we say, contradictory?

I cant understand what you are saying, are you saying that he excluded something from considertation?

[kay106]

How could we know? Perhaps none. Perhaps infinite.

So you dont believe in science now? A scientific fact agreed by all scientific community? Also a claim which has enough proof?

[tigersabre]

This is not meant to start bickering... so please ignore any trolls that try to take it that way (there's really only one I'd expect to do so).

What I want to know is how muslims in general feel about atheists. Are we seen merely as lost souls, ignorant of the truth, or are we seen as agents of Shaytan (sp?) and more of a threat to the true faith than any false religion could be?

I ask because I have noticed that here as well as elsewhere on the internet the muslims and christians and jews will argue with each other, even bicker from time to time but when dealing with the atheist it seems to be a whole other level of it. Are the atheists just more provocative or is there something about them not believing that itself troubles folks?

I've also met some devout christians who appear to be threatened or offended simply by learning I'm an atheist, without me saying anything more than that (or them finding out I'm an atheist from a third person). One of them refused to talk to me for weeks after learning I'm a heathen... which was just very strange because she was quite a nice and sweet lady otherwise. The fangs only came out after learning this.

I have not met many muslims in my real life (they simply aren't as prevalent here) so I'm wondering if the same phenomenon exists with them. Given that I say nothing against their faith, only that I'm atheist, would they regard me same as a christian or jew or would they have a special concern about me beyond that?

Fellow atheists and agnostics are welcome to opine on this as well (as well as all others here) but again I ask that this not be turned into a war zone as too often threads re atheism seem to.

It's probably because many popular atheists such as Dawkins or Hitchens advocate their positions in what many would feel is rude and arrogant.

[kay106]

No-one here is trying to make fun of anything. The reason you may sense hostility has everything to do with your attitude and complete ignorance towards Atheists. You have asked Atheists questions and we have responded adequately.

What do you want precisely?


No idea. However they would be wrong. Not every living being is made out of water. We may contain water - but we are not made from it anymore than being made from the earth.

Moreover, Muhammad was beaten to it. The Greek Philosopher, Thales of Miletus who died in 546BC also made the claim that all living things came from water. That was a long time before Muhammad.


A list of about 5 scientists?

Have you asked a person of knowledge whethere every living thing is created from water or not, have you asked a biologist who observes living things? Why do scientists when trying to discover life outside earth first thing they look for is where a planet contains water or not? heres some proof for this claim:

http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/overview/

This is what it says

"Among our discoveries about Mars, one stands out above all others: the possible presence of liquid water on Mars, either in its ancient past or preserved in the subsurface today. Water is key because almost everywhere we find water on Earth, we find life. If Mars once had liquid water, or still does today, it's compelling to ask whether any microscopic life forms could have developed on its surface. Is there any evidence of life in the planet's past? If so, could any of these tiny living creatures still exist today? Imagine how exciting it would be to answer, "Yes!!""

And much much more, from a high authority, NASA. Dont you there is a much higher authority that knows everything about the universe? Common guys, at the very least, if your confused i am sorry, stop covering up the truth, do it here try your best to win the debates, but dont deceive your self, I am only trying to help:-)

[kay106]

Some here said this thing about greek philisophers who knew about that that every living thing was made up of water. But did you know that the greeks had a lot, i mean a lot of theories? This is becuase they didnt have modern day technologie to verify their claims.
Did you know that it was from the greeks till about the 19th century, i think, that people thought that the sun is stationary, but now it is prooved that the sun also orbits in an axis? This is a proven scientific fact? If prophet Muhammed(pbuh) copied from the greeks why didnt he copy the errors, did you know that there is not a single verse in the quran that goes against establised scientific fact? Did you know that scientists have looked into this claim sooo deeply, that they mastered arabic language and concluded that for them selves, that the not a single verse in the quran goes against establised scientific fact? Below is the proof:

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Quran-Sc...7657840&sr=8-1

At least see the reviews, if you wont buy it:-)

[kay106]

did you guys know that this thing about the sun also revolving on its own axis, is in the Quran? This scientific fact. Dont you guys realise that the quran is the most up to date book in the world?

[kay106]

It's probably because many popular atheists such as Dawkins or Hitchens advocate their positions in what many would feel is rude and arrogant.

Many people think that darwin is a threat to believers, i find them comedy to be honest. One thing I have to admit though you atheist smashed those cristians quite hard. Theres once athiest who has a christian, how could God turn into a man, the christrian replied, that God can do anything, thats why! The atheist then replied if God can do anything, then can he make something sooo big that he cant move it! LOL.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

If not, can you ask a man whether he gave birth to a child? You obviously cant because the definition of man, is that he doesn't have those womenly organs, there this question doesnt arise. Similarly definition of god is that he is the greatest!

[Gator]

Kay, where's the section with the cure for cancer? or how about the perfect prevention of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome? or blindness in children? or how fusion works? or why Tommi Lee has to exist?

Is there anything specific that we can get from the Quran that science does not have to figure out first, before we realize that it was right. I would like you to tell me so that when science does figure it out I can say that is really amazing.

Thanks.

[Skavau]

Do you mean that there are a lot of facts to back up evolution? If yes can you give an example? In other words I am asking for proof? You get the definition now, common i taught my little 5 year old niece that, you being god knows how old, dont even know what proof is, and you claim your a rationalist! LOL

There is no such thing as proof. Only evidence and reason.

Look guys, i dont care what you think, but you guys dont know what you are missing out on, i used to be just like you once, not remembering God much, and thats the time, when I used to feel sooo miserable, anxiety, depressed, etc.

Do not patronise and project your feelings on others. You have no knowledge of what the Atheists here think, so do not pretend that you do.

Visting a psychologist they tell me that its my past experience - in other words telling me to blame it onto someone else, but as soon as i began to pray, I felt my whole heart pumping and relieving stress, it was healing my sould immediately! Then i've noticed that it was a spiritual illness i was suffering from, everying wrong you do damages your soul, thats why just like any complicated machines, we need an instruction manual.

Please provide evidence that a soul even exists.

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

So you don't believe our Atheism is sincere now? You think we're all secretly theists? I get tired of this nonsense. All of us Atheists here are what we say we are. I do not believe in God. My admittance of the 'truth' is an assertion that there is no evidence for the existence of a God.

And drop the patronising tone.

At least make the shahadah, which is the declaration of faith, this could save on the day of judgement. If your worried about what people will think, simply dont tell them-keep it to your self, take your time, this satan will always come at you with anxiety, ask God for help.

One problem.

I don't believe in God, therefore saying the Shahadah is dishonest.

Did you guys know that on the day of judgement, some people will have sinned sooo sooo much, but just becuase they have believe in God and his messenger, this will out weith all their bad deeds. Common guys, dont admit it here, but atleast make this declartion of faith, find out how to do it, and you could be saved, just for that, if its too difficult for you to pray, fast, etc. But at the very least admit the truth, and thank God, for everthing he has give you - this would only take you a few seconds. Did you know that scientists cant even create a human vein, what about the eyes, what about the air we breathe, what about fruits we eat, strawberries, bannas, grapes, where does all this come from? did you know that if you were to count all that you were give you will loose count? Dont you think that source deserves to be known and thanked? I really believe, just like everything fulfills a function, thats the function out intellect should fulfill, to recognise the creator, sustainer. Have you looked at a seed, how it turns into a giant tree, do you know how much programming that seeds contain? Do you know how much scientist have uncovered about the seed? less than 1% I think. Do you see the intelligence in those seeds? Common at least admit the truth to your selves, you dont have to mention it here, but like i said before i would strongly advise you guys to at the very least to recognise this truth and to make the shahadah, take your time and think about it. If you guys need any help do come and ask us.

Paragraphs are your friend.

Have you asked a person of knowledge whethere every living thing is created from water or not, have you asked a biologist who observes living things? Why do scientists when trying to discover life outside earth first thing they look for is where a planet contains water or not? heres some proof for this claim:

None of the above is evidence that everything is made from water. It is only that water is searched for.

Dont you there is a much higher authority that knows everything about the universe? Common guys, at the very least, if your confused i am sorry, stop covering up the truth, do it here try your best to win the debates, but dont deceive your self, I am only trying to help:-)

I would appreciate it if you stopped patronising people here and stop deluding yourself into thinking that we are all secretly theists.

Did you know that it was from the greeks till about the 19th century, i think, that people thought that the sun is stationary, but now it is prooved that the sun also orbits in an axis? This is a proven scientific fact? If prophet Muhammed(pbuh) copied from the greeks why didnt he copy the errors, did you know that there is not a single verse in the quran that goes against establised scientific fact?

I never said Muhammad did copy the Greeks. Just he was beaten to his claim that everything was made from water, which is in fact - false. Therefore there is error.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

Essentially all problems with the Christian concept of God apply directly to the Islamic concept of God.

From the Free-Will vs. Omniscience contradiction to the Problem Of Evil.

[tigersabre]

Many people think that darwin is a threat to believers, i find them comedy to be honest. One thing I have to admit though you atheist smashed those cristians quite hard. Theres once athiest who has a christian, how could God turn into a man, the christrian replied, that God can do anything, thats why! The atheist then replied if God can do anything, then can he make something sooo big that he cant move it! LOL.

But when it comes to Islam, our sources say that God has power over all things, God is the greatest, so this question doesnt arise! You get that!

If not, can you ask a man whether he gave birth to a child? You obviously cant because the definition of man, is that he doesn't have those womenly organs, there this question doesnt arise. Similarly definition of god is that he is the greatest!

I'm a Muslim.

[czgibson]

Greetings Kay,

First off, I've not seen you around here much before, so howdy. Welcome to the forum. I hope you get a lot out of it. :)

I know for you guys its very very difficult, but atleast admit the truth, if your unsure study into it, if you dont understand something, don't just search on the internet on those anti islamic sites, ask the people of knowledge in that area, come to this forum and ask us, see all points of view, look at it objectively.

It seems you've now realised that the atheists here may not be here to poke fun or outsmart people. Asking questions and learning about Islam, as you've recommended, is certainly my main reason for coming here.

Also, it seems you're new to your religion, and relatively new to debating about it. Reading up on atheism would help you a lot, since almost every point you've made so far has been answered for centuries. You might also understand some of the atheist responses you've had in this thread. You could do worse than starting here.

Oddly enough, the thread starter explicitly asked for the thread not to degenerate into yet another "god doesn't exist / yes he does" thread, so it would appear that this is all off-topic and would be better elsewhere.

Peace

[Trumble]

So you don't believe our Atheism is sincere now? You think we're all secretly theists? I get tired of this nonsense. All of us Atheists here are what we say we are. I do not believe in God. My admittance of the 'truth' is an assertion that there is no evidence for the existence of a God.

Likewise. It can get tiresome being told you are 'arrogant', 'proud' or 'in denial' as opposed to simply 'wrong', which would be fair enough, of course. None of that is true. It really is a simple as the fact that while theists believe God exists, atheists do not believe that God exists. Agnostics don't know, haven't decided and/or don't believe it is even possible to know. In view of the failure so far to prove the matter either way, that seems a very strong position to me.

In all cases the same factors are at work, culture, upbringing, education, and an examination of the evidence in reaching a reasoned decision on the matter. The only 'fact' is that neither side is any more able to 'prove' their case than anyone else has been over the past 2,500 years or so. The ball there is really in the theist court, it's far easier to prove that something does exist than that it doesn't or cannot.

[kay106]

I still cant believe after giving so many strong evidence, people still choose hell. To me, after watching many debates and talking to non believers, it prooves to me that God is the guide, not you or me , or your intellect, just like it is stated in the Quran. If you want guidance at least from the sincerety of your heart ask God if you exist please guide me.
Also guys you need to get your thinking straight, i will recommend this book, this not written by a muslim,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Asking-Right...7673599&sr=8-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73ohM_Rjw - See why this atheist reverted to Islam


Remember guys it was your choice and you were warned, thats our job we are not your guide.

[kay106]

someone mentioned about the existance of the soul. Do you have an emmotions fellings?

[Skavau]

I still cant believe after giving so many strong evidence, people still choose hell.

What evidence? Who is choosing hell?

Are you keeping track here?

To me, after watching many debates and talking to non believers, it prooves to me that God is the guide, not you or me , or your intellect, just like it is stated in the Quran. If you want guidance at least from the sincerety of your heart ask God if you exist please guide me.

Asking if 'God' exists is as effective as asking if 'Thor' exists.

Also guys you need to get your thinking straight, i will recommend this book, this not written by a muslim,

So what is wrong with our thinking?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z73ohM_Rjw - See why this atheist reverted to Islam

I could probably find a video of an apostate of Islam explaining why he no longer believes. Pointless.

Remember guys it was your choice and you were warned, thats our job we are not your guide.

Fine. In that case, I warn you that unless you believe in Thor you will be cast down to Hel.

Now how convincing was that?

[Skavau]

someone mentioned about the existance of the soul. Do you have an emmotions fellings?

Yes.

And they do not provide evidence for the existence of a soul.

[kay106]

also guys another thing that makes sense to me is that reason why some people will eternal hell, is because they had the intention of sinning forever, intention of disbelieving forever, your choice! Allah knows best!

[czgibson]

Greetings Kay,

So what do you think - are atheists worse than other theists?

Peace

[Skavau]

also guys another thing that makes sense to me is that reason why some people will eternal hell, is because they had the intention of sinning forever, intention of disbelieving forever, your choice! Allah knows best!

That's nice. Except I don't recognise the concept of 'sin'.

May Talos guide you.

[kay106]

What evidence? Who is choosing hell?

Are you keeping track here?


Asking if 'God' exists is as effective as asking if 'Thor' exists.



So what is wrong with our thinking?


I could probably find a video of an apostate of Islam explaining why he no longer believes. Pointless.


Fine. In that case, I warn you that unless you believe in Thor you will be cast down to Hel.

Now how convincing was that?

Wheres your evidence? do you understand what evidence is? what about proof? Do you believe in evolution?

[kay106]

what if this is the truth? what is paradise hell judgement is true? what if, do you not have this in your concience?

[kay106]

what will happen when you die? do you guys not ask this question? why is this most unconsidered fact in the world? in other words why do people not think about it? why are people so distracted from it, do people ever have the chance to reflect?

[Skavau]

Wheres your evidence?

My evidence for what?

do you understand what evidence is?

Evidence is the application of phenomena which is used to demonstrate the truth value of a specific claim.

what about proof?

Proof is impossible. Only evidence.

Do you believe in evolution?

Yes I do.

[kay106]

have any of u guys seen the videos that were posted in this forum?

[Skavau]

what will happen when you die?

I have absolutely no idea. All evidence indicates that I will simply cease to exist.

do you guys not ask this question?

Yes.

why is this most unconsidered fact in the world?

Considering that approximately 80% of the world is religious in some sense, my guess is that it is considered.

in other words why do people not think about it? why are people so distracted from it, do people ever have the chance to reflect?

We do.

what if this is the truth?

Islam?

what is paradise hell judgement is true? what if, do you not have this in your concience?

Then I will go to hell. Your appeal to force fallacies are not good arguments and they fail to impress or scare me. Real discussions resort to reason and evidence, not petty threats.

[truemuslim]

That's nice. Except I don't recognise the concept of 'sin'.

May Talos guide you.

lol dats sad

[Skavau]

lol dats sad

Why is that sad? Why would I recognise sin as an Atheist?

[truemuslim]

well, as an athiest can you do anything you want? nothing is forbidden?

[Skavau]

well, as an athiest can you do anything you want? nothing is forbidden?

Atheism is not a comprehensive belief system which includes ethical values. It is just what we call people who disbelieve or believe there is no God. Every Atheist is different and we get our moral values from different places.

We can do what we want. But then so can a Muslim. It is just when someone says 'X is a Muslim' you know what the values of that individual are to an extent because of what Islam actually asserts.

I find it breathtaking still that people think Atheism is a set of beliefs.

[kay106]

I have absolutely no idea. All evidence indicates that I will simply cease to exist.


Yes.


Considering that approximately 80% of the world is religious in some sense, my guess is that it is considered.


We do.


Islam?


Then I will go to hell. Your appeal to force fallacies are not good arguments and they fail to impress or scare me. Real discussions resort to reason and evidence, not petty threats.

We gave you evidence and reason and you still rejected, dont ask me when! Did you know most people follow religions blindly, becuase their parents were from that religion. Ask any other religion, do you have evidence, they will say this is about faith not evidence, but we have both reason evidence faith, praise to the lord of the worlds, did you know most religions dont even know their scriptures? If you ask people from any other religion, there are many beliefs out there, how do you know you are on the right one, they will reply becuase i know, but you ask how do you know, they will say because i know. See no other religion including yours have evidence, your evolution is only a theory, but still just dont get it! u think you are using your reason!

Did you know there is only 1 truth, example a coordinate of something, can there be two right answers, or two coordinates, there is only 1 truth. And this is a definition of Allah, that he is the Al-Haq, he is the truth, he is one and only!

[truemuslim]

Atheism is not a comprehensive belief system which includes ethical values. It is just what we call people who disbelieve or believe there is no God. Every Atheist is different and we get our moral values from different places.

We can do what we want. But then so can a Muslim. It is just when someone says 'X is a Muslim' you know what the values of that individual are to an extent because of what Islam actually asserts.

I find it breathtaking still that people think Atheism is a set of beliefs.

but is there nothing forbidden?

[truemuslim]

We gave you evidence and reason and you still rejected, dont ask me when! Did you know most people follow religions blindly, becuase their parents were from that religion. Ask any other religion, do you have evidence, they will say this is about faith not evidence, but we have both reason evidence faith, praise to the lord of the worlds, did you know most religions dont even know their scriptures? If you ask people from any other religion, there are many beliefs out there, how do you know you are on the right one, they will reply becuase i know, but you ask how do you know, they will say because i know. See no other religion including yours have evidence, your evolution is only a theory, but still just dont get it! u think you are using your reason!

Did you know there is only 1 truth, example a coordinate of something, can there be two right answers, or two coordinates, there is only 1 truth. And this is a definition of Allah, that he is the Al-Haq, he is the truth, he is one and only!

well they give me kind of evidence like the horse dude and when blab la bla blew up earth and picked up a car, or something like that, and christians give me those crossword puzzles you find ina newspaper...:D

[Skavau]

We gave you evidence and reason and you still rejected, dont ask me when!

This doesn't even make sense. You say you gave me evidence and reason and then don't want me to inquired where?

I see no evidence or reason in any of your posts.

Did you know most people follow religions blindly, becuase their parents were from that religion. Ask any other religion, do you have evidence, they will say this is about faith not evidence, but we have both reason evidence faith,

Except that a lot of people from other religions will also say that their religion has faith and evidence. Muslims are not alone in declaring their religion as rational.

praise to the lord of the worlds, did you know most religions dont even know their scriptures? If you ask people from any other religion, there are many beliefs out there, how do you know you are on the right one, they will reply becuase i know, but you ask how do you know, they will say because i know.

And yet Muslims often do the exact same thing.

See no other religion including yours have evidence

I don't have a religion. And I know my belief has no evidence, but it does not need any for it is a negative standpoint. It rests on the lack of evidence for God.

your evolution is only a theory, but still just dont get it! u think you are using your reason!

You obviously are unaware of the application of theory in science.

Did you know there is only 1 truth, example a coordinate of something, can there be two right answers, or two coordinates, there is only 1 truth. And this is a definition of Allah, that he is the Al-Haq, he is the truth, he is one and only!

Or equally if Allah does not exist, Allah is not the truth.

May Talos guide you.

[kay106]

skavau, you said you believe in evolution, did you know that darwing posed a falsification test that if an organ needs all its components to function, then his theory would collapse, do you know about irreducible complexity of many many organs, and still you belive in this sick theory?

[Skavau]

but is there nothing forbidden?

Atheists are just what we call people who do not believe in God. Your question is equivalent to me asking 'Is nothing forbidden in Golf'? Golf is just a hobby. It implies no ethical assertions.

Atheism has nothing to do with morality. It is completely silent on it.

[Skavau]

skavau, you said you believe in evolution, did you know that darwing posed a falsification test that if an organ needs all its components to function, then his theory would collapse, do you know about irreducible complexity of many many organs, and still you belive in this sick theory?

I know that 'Irreducible Complexity' is a laughable term thrown around by Creationists.

Moreover, what is sick about evolution?

[kay106]

ok can you give me premises,basis,reasons for your claims, that other religions claim that they too are rational? by the by this appeal to force is not from me!

[Skavau]

ok can you give me premises,basis,reasons for your claims, that other religions claim that they too are rational?

Christians claim Christianity is rational. Jews claim Judaism is rational. Hindus claim likewise.

Most people think their belief is rational.

by the by this appeal to force is not from me!

You used the fallacy.

[Skavau]

Now I must depart from this conversation. I will continue the discussion tomorrow. I have no doubt that a page or more of responses would have built up by then.

[truemuslim]

Atheists are just what we call people who do not believe in God. Your question is equivalent to me asking 'Is nothing forbidden in Golf'? Golf is just a hobby. It implies no ethical assertions.

Atheism has nothing to do with morality. It is completely silent on it.

lol, no thanks we don't need tallys guiding us.... and thats really wrong, that means you can murder, steal, drink, cuss at your own tally, and still make it to heavan


if you even have a heavan in ur religion. :D

[ranma1/2]

what will happen when you die? do you guys not ask this question? why is this most unconsidered fact in the world? in other words why do people not think about it? why are people so distracted from it, do people ever have the chance to reflect?

well i imagine once im buried my body will rot in the ground. Unless of course im cremated.

[truemuslim]

well i imagine once im buried my body will rot in the ground. Unless of course im cremated.

wrong...

[ranma1/2]

wrong...

poe TM. Do you think they they will donate my body to science? I am a organ donor.

[wilberhum]

wrong...

Please inform us of what will happen to our bodies and where we can witness the event?

[truemuslim]

Please inform us of what will happen to our bodies and where we can witness the event?

its too sick tho...oh and there was something in the news showing a guy who is only 18 and he died, (he listened to music, never prayed, etc), then after only 3 hours his parent wanted to know what he died from, so the people went and unburied him, (when they buried him he was perfectly normal) and then when they unburied him, his eyes were all messed up and sick, same with his mouth and nose and his entire body was BLACK and smoking... staghfirallah al atheem... :scared:

[ranma1/2]

wow dead and buried in under 3hours. they really musthave wanted him gone.

[truemuslim]

wow dead and buried in under 3hours. they really musthave wanted him gone.

1. you missed my point 2. you didnt get it..
I said they buried him after he died, then AFTER that, it was only three hours later... get it?

[Trumble]

what will happen when you die? do you guys not ask this question? why is this most unconsidered fact in the world? in other words why do people not think about it? why are people so distracted from it, do people ever have the chance to reflect?

I suspect you will never understand how hugely ironic those questions are, or at least will seem to atheists. It is not the "most unconsidered fact in the world", far from it. The whole of theism and (particularly) the concept of an after-life is largely a response to those questions. But most atheists believe that what happens when you die is that you cease to exist. Period. They are unconcerned about hellfire because they don't believe hell (or heaven) exist any more than they believe God exists. The questions are considered but because the starting assumptions are so vastly different, so are the answers.

[truemuslim]

I suspect you will never understand how hugely ironic those questions are, or at least will seem to atheists. It is not the "most unconsidered fact in the world", far from it. The whole of theism and (particularly) the concept of an after-life is largely a response to those questions. But most atheists believe that what happens when you die is that you cease to exist. Period. They are unconcerned about hellfire because they don't believe hell (or heaven) exist any more than they believe God exists. The questions are considered but because the starting assumptions are so vastly different, so are the answers.

do you know how funny athiests sound...no offence... no sins, no heavan, no hell, no punishments, no rewards, no god... what is there???:giggling:

[ranma1/2]

do you know how funny athiests sound...no offence... no sins, no heavan, no hell, no punishments, no rewards, no god... what is there???:giggling:

life, death and reality.

[truemuslim]

life, death and reality.

yeah? and what if when "death" comes then allah will punish you and you regret it and its too late??
btw thats not life or a religion, thats what little kids think life is... no offence

[Qingu]

do you know how funny athiests sound...no offence... no sins, no heavan, no hell, no punishments, no rewards, no god... what is there???:giggling:

It's pretty sad that you can't conceive of a meaningful existence without these things.

[truemuslim]

It's pretty sad that you can't conceive of a meaningful existence without these things.

well you can enjoy your ETERNAL LIFE after this unbelievably short life... your choice Heavan or HELL :mad: ... like people say "Life is short" of course they say that so you can go to like a hotel or something..hehe

[Qingu]

well you can enjoy your ETERNAL LIFE after this unbelievably short life...

Assuming it exists.

your choice Heavan or HELL :mad:

Assuming they exist.

... like people say "Life is short" of course they say that so you can go to like a hotel or something..hehe

Yes. The only reason atheists deny the concept of eternal life is because we want to commit adultery.

For that matter, this is also the reason why ancient Babylonians, Jews, and various animists didn't believe in eternal life either, before the concept was invented by some cult leader who couldn't bother to promise his followers a reward he could provide them in real life.

[Resigned]

do you know how funny athiests sound...no offence... no sins, no heavan, no hell, no punishments, no rewards, no god... what is there???:giggling:

On the other hand, you’ve bought into a fantastical world of spirits, spooks, ancient books of dubious authorship, fear, loathing and trembling before an angry deity.

In any event, it tells me for some, their belief in their system is so weak, their god is so impotent, he needs threats and coercion to convince people of his "truths". If your religion can withstand criticism, then you should be happy about it. If it can't, then of what good is it? Most importantly, stop worrying about those who choose not to embrace your religious belief. You just worry about why it is that your religion has degenerated into a prescription for many to commit mass murder.

By and large, the ethical foundations (or lack thereof) within “holy texts” have long been surpassed by human society, which finally turned away from the theistic precepts of existence around 100 years ago. Note that since humans turned to science, disease has declined, education has increased (for most people), and technology has become astounding. This doesn't mean science is always right and has all the answers, but at any time you need to understand the technology that powers this message board, you have a choice: clutch the Koran and find the answers there, or go to your kafir innovated PC, running kafir Microsoft windows over the kafir innovated and maintained internet. I think we all know which one you'll choose.

[wilberhum]

its too sick tho...oh and there was something in the news showing a guy who is only 18 and he died, (he listened to music, never prayed, etc), then after only 3 hours his parent wanted to know what he died from, so the people went and unburied him, (when they buried him he was perfectly normal) and then when they unburied him, his eyes were all messed up and sick, same with his mouth and nose and his entire body was BLACK and smoking... staghfirallah al atheem... :scared:

Wow, what a crock. You will believe most anything, won't you. :-\

You should really learn to check things out. :-[

[czgibson]

Greetings,

yeah? and what if when "death" comes then allah will punish you and you regret it and its too late??
btw thats not life or a religion, thats what little kids think life is... no offence

Correct - atheism is not a religion. I'm glad the message has got through somehow. Tell all your friends!

When I die, if it turns out that hell exists I'll gladly suffer eternal punishment. I can say that with confidence because the whole idea of hell strikes me as being patently absurd.

Peace

[Pygoscelis]

Not only patently absurd, but cruel and unusual, and any God who would resort to it I could not bring myself to like or follow anyway.

How can you worship a God who threatens you?

[barney]

Cz, why must a religion have a dogma, a heaven or hell, a church,candles, a symbol, a big central vatican or kaaba or even fixed scriptures?

I dont find that particually neccessery at all.

Not to streach the point, because it's a minor one really, but your religion is the relationship you have with a creator.
Weather that be worshiping a creator you think your in touch with, Looking for a creator in all the usual places and drawing blanks then continuing the search, or denying the existance of a creator completly. Thats your religion.

[barney]

Not only patently absurd, but cruel and unusual, and any God who would resort to it I could not bring myself to like or follow anyway.

How can you worship a God who threatens you?

God stopped threatening people quite so much, as mankind develops.
Look at the oldest religions...its all stick.
Look at the later ones...More and more carrot, the amount of stick is the same, but it's talked about less.

To fire up a new religion , it's gotta have incentives, Gardens, flowing waters, Virgins, beer, free public transport, decent insurance policys.

But what is a religion if it dosnt have the stick. The repetetive, cyclic chanting in scripture of the Fire, with supernatural heat.
There was a spoof in Viz comic a few months back. A nun had decided to worship Mars instead of Jesus and was asking her freind's advice.
Her freind said "Imagine a steel ball bigger than the sun, that is brushed by a butterflys wing, just once every 10000 years, when that steel ball is completely worn away, your torment will have only just begun"
Fantastic!

Carrot and Stick....Evrytime.

[Pygoscelis]

Its thoughts like this that make me see similarities between god worshipers and abused children. Obedience out of of fear and dependance, and "respect and love" growing from it.

[barney]

Yeah, I was talking to my Mum, who's born again baptist, about theology and everything was ok until I said I did not FEAR god. At which point she turned pale and said "Oh no..ohno...you mustnt say that...."

[kay106]

On the other hand, you’ve bought into a fantastical world of spirits, spooks, ancient books of dubious authorship, fear, loathing and trembling before an angry deity.

In any event, it tells me for some, their belief in their system is so weak, their god is so impotent, he needs threats and coercion to convince people of his "truths". If your religion can withstand criticism, then you should be happy about it. If it can't, then of what good is it? Most importantly, stop worrying about those who choose not to embrace your religious belief. You just worry about why it is that your religion has degenerated into a prescription for many to commit mass murder.

By and large, the ethical foundations (or lack thereof) within “holy texts” have long been surpassed by human society, which finally turned away from the theistic precepts of existence around 100 years ago. Note that since humans turned to science, disease has declined, education has increased (for most people), and technology has become astounding. This doesn't mean science is always right and has all the answers, but at any time you need to understand the technology that powers this message board, you have a choice: clutch the Koran and find the answers there, or go to your kafir innovated PC, running kafir Microsoft windows over the kafir innovated and maintained internet. I think we all know which one you'll choose.

Did you know science owes its entire existance to the muslims, off course you dont!!! LOL

Do you know why you dont know?

[kay106]

Christians claim Christianity is rational. Jews claim Judaism is rational. Hindus claim likewise.

Most people think their belief is rational.


You used the fallacy.

Given your premises for what the jews, christians, say to make their claims rational. See what I mean about u guys jumping to conclusions and making the most irrational claims in the nonsense market? I still havent changed my mind about u guys, sorry about your feelings towards this claim, but it is the truth.

[kay106]

I know that 'Irreducible Complexity' is a laughable term thrown around by Creationists.

Moreover, what is sick about evolution?

Why is it laughable? Its sick, becuase you belive in a concept called survival of the fittest, weak should be elimited, there is no such thing as justice. No wonder why many people wont object to many invasions that are happening.

[kay106]

How could we know? Perhaps none. Perhaps infinite.

See what i mean about nonsense from u guys? You guys simply want to believe what ever u want to believe! U guys have no sense!

[Resigned]

See what i mean about nonsense from u guys? You guys simply want to believe what ever u want to believe!

There’s nothing nonsensical about asking hard questions, demanding rationality and reason and coming to a considered choice about spiritual questions. At least for me, it's not something to just roll over and believe because if you truly dig deep into what allows you to believe, you will find there is no clear reason to believe as you do—and again, at least for me – none of the differing religious claims makes a case that rises above the others. In other words, there is no reason to believe Christianity over Islam over Judaism over Hinduism.
Answer honestly please; is it absolute certainty in faith that results in places such as the KSA being 100% muslim or is it the social and political constructs that require a particular faith? Are people in such places such as Iran, Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, etc., etc., nearly 100% muslim because of some overriding truth in islam or is it because of the same social and political constructs that prohibit or discriminate competing faiths?

People chose what their theistic beliefs are for many reasons, but rarely do they apply very hard standards to those reasons. They tend to be cultural (i.e., you grew up in a social environment that preferred one belief over another), -- or in the case of Islamic majority nations, a society that demands a particular faith, or anecdotal (you believe in certain events that for you define a specific belief, like a Hindu may have examples of "reincarnation" whereas a Catholic will "see visions of Mary", etc.), or there is simply a resonance in the belief system you select. And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from one of the many claimed Supreme Beings.

But none of them make the absolute case of authority -- hence, I select the default position of atheism until such time as there is a clear defining reason to select one over the other.

But the struggle over the spiritual questions -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Perhaps in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. I applaud it and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And hell, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

U guys have no sense!

Some genuine honesty and introspection on your part would be valuable.

[barney]

Survival of the fittest is an established , measurable fact. Is it harsh..Sure..its nature and nature is harsh. Is Nature harsher than God?
Well, at least nature is neutral. God wants people to burn and be tortured and plagued.

[Resigned]

Did you know science owes its entire existance to the muslims, off course you dont!!! LOL

Do you know why you dont know?

Yet, quite revealingly, you are unable to provide specificity, merely vague, unsubstantiated assertions.

[Resigned]

Survival of the fittest is an established , measurable fact. Is it harsh..Sure..its nature and nature is harsh. Is Nature harsher than God?
Well, at least nature is neutral. God wants people to burn and be tortured and plagued.

Because he loves you!

[Qingu]

Why is it laughable? Its sick, becuase you belive in a concept called survival of the fittest,

You don't believe in survival of the fittest?

So you believe that nonprofitable corporations are just as likely to survive as profitable ones? Or that a tiny lobster has just as much of a chance to win a fight against a giant lobster?

Survival of the fittest is a factual description of what happens in the world. It's not a moral precept.

weak should be elimited,

Really? I wasn't aware any atheists on this board held this belief. Can you please support your absurd accusation?

there is no such thing as justice.

Of course I believe in justice. I'm sure even the so-called nihlist atheists on this board believe in justice, at minumum as a legal concept.

We don't believe that there's an invisible spirit who will punish people we don't like after they die, but I don't see why this is "sick."

No wonder why many people wont object to many invasions that are happening.

What invasions are you referring to? Iraq? Every atheist I know is opposed to the Iraq War. Nonreligious people overwhelmingly supported Gore and Kerry over Bush and his neocon cronies.

If you're going to make claims like these, either support them or have the intellectual courage to admit you're wrong.

[Whatsthepoint]

Did you know science owes its entire existance to the muslims, off course you dont!!! LOL

Do you know why you dont know?

Because it's false. Resigned only deals with real stuff.

[Skavau]

and thats really wrong, that means you can murder, steal, drink, cuss at your own tally, and still make it to heavan

This indicates that you obviously have not been reading or understanding anything I have said. Anyone can murder, steal, drink and swear as much as they like in reality. The good news of course is simply that most of humanity choose to assert moral standards. Your moral standards of course, come from Islam because it is your lifestyle. My moral standards come from ethical schools of thought such as Libertarianism, Negative Utilitarianism and Kantian thought and not from Atheism because Atheism does not assert any ethical beliefs. It is silent on the question of morality. Of course, my own conscience also plays a role in shaping my reactions.

Atheism in and of itself is not anything other than the lack of belief in a God. Why is this so hard for you to grasp? It is a simple concept.

if you even have a heavan in ur religion.

Atheism is not a religion and I do not believe in heaven.

its too sick tho...oh and there was something in the news showing a guy who is only 18 and he died, (he listened to music, never prayed, etc), then after only 3 hours his parent wanted to know what he died from, so the people went and unburied him, (when they buried him he was perfectly normal) and then when they unburied him, his eyes were all messed up and sick, same with his mouth and nose and his entire body was BLACK and smoking... staghfirallah al atheem...

Presuming the above is true, so?

do you know how funny athiests sound...no offence... no sins, no heavan, no hell, no punishments, no rewards, no god... what is there???

This indicates exactly that you do not have the slightest clue as to why people are Atheist. In fact, you are thriving in your ignorance. Atheism is a conclusion on reality based on observation of natural phenomena. It is a conclusion which asserts there is no God or no evidence/reason to suppose God.

Atheists do not suppose anything supernatural such as heaven and hell. There is however, reality.

yeah? and what if when "death" comes then allah will punish you and you regret it and its too late??

What if Thor or Zeus punish you at death?

well you can enjoy your ETERNAL LIFE after this unbelievably short life... your choice Heavan or HELL

Actually, if your world view is true - then there is no choice.

Did you know science owes its entire existance to the muslims, off course you dont!!! LOL

The above of course is either a gross error or a deliberate lie. Either way it remains utter nonsense.

Its sick, becuase you belive in a concept called survival of the fittest, weak should be elimited, there is no such thing as justice.

You obviously do not understand the naturalistic fallacy. Just because survival of the fittest exists, does not mean it ought to be so.

Moreover, what you describe is Social Darwinism.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Cz, why must a religion have a dogma, a heaven or hell, a church,candles, a symbol, a big central vatican or kaaba or even fixed scriptures?

I'm not sure whether it does. The definition of 'religion' is notoriously difficult. However, atheism is a metaphysical belief in a single proposition: There is no god (or are no gods). Does that count as a faith-position? Yes. Is it a religion? I suppose it depends on your definition.

Not to streach the point, because it's a minor one really, but your religion is the relationship you have with a creator.
Weather that be worshiping a creator you think your in touch with, Looking for a creator in all the usual places and drawing blanks then continuing the search, or denying the existance of a creator completly. Thats your religion.

I'm not sure how this would apply to a religion like Buddhism, where, as far as I know, the creator of the universe does not play a central role.

On a different note, can I comment on the "debate" that is running at the moment in this thread? I don't mean to interrupt, but things seem to be going nowhere. Until certain posters are willing to read and think carefully about the responses of other members, I don't really see how any progress can be made.

Peace

[kay106]

here is a natural law:

http://www.ezsoftech.com/hajj/hajj10.asp


to me it seems worthless arguing with you people, all youse doo chuck nonsense. if you have proove something proove it, but you will turn around and say theres no such thing as proof, only evidence and reasoning. Isn't this the definition of proof? And you know thats exactly what mean, but all you are trying to do is twist a few words around to say i am wrong, see what mean about u guys? All you are really doing is twisting your own head around. use your reason! Someone here said, that isn't god harsher than your assumption of the law of survival of the fittest, but are you forgetting all the needs you have which are being provided for, do you recognise the source, who is proding you all of that? therefore natural disastors to you type of people, obviously you deserve it! its a warning! use your brain! If you guys keep chucking nonsense I am out of here.

[The_Prince]

Christians are much better than Atheists no doubt. at least they believe in God!

and i find atheists to be so arrogant and rude, i mean go around youtube and full of popular atheists are there, and all they do is mock, insult, and make fun of theists without disproving anything. they go like:

"you believe in God?" HAHAHAHA"

thats their argument, as if religion is simply false for believing in God!

atheists are hypocrites too, nagging about how religous ppl hate freedom etc yet atheists openly say they want to ban religion, and that everyone should accept evolution or their stupid.

[czgibson]

Greetings Kay,

to me it seems worthless arguing with you people, all youse doo chuck nonsense. if you have proove something proove it, but you will turn around and say theres no such thing as proof, only evidence and reasoning. Isn't this the definition of proof? And you know thats exactly what mean, but all you are trying to do is twist a few words around to say i am wrong, see what mean about u guys? All you are really doing is twisting your own head around. use your reason! Someone here said, that isn't god harsher than your assumption of the law of survival of the fittest, but are you forgetting all the needs you have which are being provided for, do you recognise the source, who is proding you all of that? therefore natural disastors to you type of people, obviously you deserve it! its a warning! use your brain! If you guys keep chucking nonsense I am out of here.

One more time, just for you. I'll put it in big letters if it helps:

On a different note, can I comment on the "debate" that is running at the moment in this thread? I don't mean to interrupt, but things seem to be going nowhere. Until certain posters are willing to read and think carefully about the responses of other members, I don't really see how any progress can be made.

Also, you might find that insulting people makes them less willing to discuss things with you. If you want to have a debate, then go ahead, but if you just want to insult people then you should probably take it elsewhere.

Peace

[Skavau]

to me it seems worthless arguing with you people, all youse doo chuck nonsense.

So why don't you leave the Comparative Religion subforum? What do you expect? Everyone to agree with you?

if you have proove something proove it, but you will turn around and say theres no such thing as proof, only evidence and reasoning.

That is because there is no such thing as proof. Call it pedantic, but I like to point it out.

Isn't this the definition of proof?

No. Proof is different to evidence. Evidence is the application of things used to show how a specific truth claim is the case. Proof is without doubt and completely and utterly true unquestionably.

It is impossible to reach the status of proving anything.

All you are really doing is twisting your own head around. use your reason!

I do, thanks.

Someone here said, that isn't god harsher than your assumption of the law of survival of the fittest, but are you forgetting all the needs you have which are being provided for, do you recognise the source, who is proding you all of that?

There is no evidence for your insinuation that all our needs are being provided by God.

therefore natural disastors to you type of people, obviously you deserve it!

How did we get onto natural disasters precisely? I personally find it sickening for a start however that you would invoke this path of thought.

its a warning! use your brain! If you guys keep chucking nonsense I am out of here.

Warning of what? There is no consistency on the impact of natural disasters in the slightest to come close to concluding that they are directed by a God. Natural disasters impact all races, religions and culture indiscriminately. I find arguments that invoke natural disasters a God's will as sickening arguments that portray God as a bloodthirsty, egotistical, spiteful tyrant.

[Skavau]

Christians are much better than Atheists no doubt. at least they believe in God!

What makes that good?

and i find atheists to be so arrogant and rude

Pot, meet kettle.

, i mean go around youtube and full of popular atheists are there, and all they do is mock, insult, and make fun of theists without disproving anything. they go like:

"you believe in God?" HAHAHAHA"

Some Atheists might do that. I am not one of them.

thats their argument, as if religion is simply false for believing in God!

It might be the argument of some Atheists. Not me, however.

atheists are hypocrites too, nagging about how religous ppl hate freedom etc yet atheists openly say they want to ban religion, and that everyone should accept evolution or their stupid.

Where do Atheists say that religion should be banned? Show me that the majority of Atheists say that.

[Pygoscelis]

If you guys keep chucking nonsense I am out of here.

That may not be such a bad thing. Go back and read your own posts. You have done little but put out bold assertions and then call people stupid and foolish and other names when they disagree with said bold assertions. You've also apparently not read or thought about what people have posted.

I started this thread SPECIFICALLY to avoid this type of trolling and bickering. But you do seem to have proven what I was wondering about to be true. You do seem to be more threatened by non-believers than believers in other Gods, it shows in how you are addressing us.

[kay106]

You don't believe in survival of the fittest?

So you believe that nonprofitable corporations are just as likely to survive as profitable ones? Or that a tiny lobster has just as much of a chance to win a fight against a giant lobster?

Survival of the fittest is a factual description of what happens in the world. It's not a moral precept.


Really? I wasn't aware any atheists on this board held this belief. Can you please support your absurd accusation?


Of course I believe in justice. I'm sure even the so-called nihlist atheists on this board believe in justice, at minumum as a legal concept.

We don't believe that there's an invisible spirit who will punish people we don't like after they die, but I don't see why this is "sick."


What invasions are you referring to? Iraq? Every atheist I know is opposed to the Iraq War. Nonreligious people overwhelmingly supported Gore and Kerry over Bush and his neocon cronies.

If you're going to make claims like these, either support them or have the intellectual courage to admit you're wrong.

If I am wrong I will admit i am not, i wouldnt try to twise words around like a lot u guys, I admit I could be wrong about all you guys not believing in justice. Happy?
Can you prove to me that survival of the fittest is a natural law? Are you ready to face the truth and accept it? do you have the intellectual courage to say you were wrong?

[kay106]

So why don't you leave the Comparative Religion subforum? What do you expect? Everyone to agree with you?


That is because there is no such thing as proof. Call it pedantic, but I like to point it out.


No. Proof is different to evidence. Evidence is the application of things used to show how a specific truth claim is the case. Proof is without doubt and completely and utterly true unquestionably.

It is impossible to reach the status of proving anything.


I do, thanks.


There is no evidence for your insinuation that all our needs are being provided by God.


How did we get onto natural disasters precisely? I personally find it sickening for a start however that you would invoke this path of thought.


Warning of what? There is no consistency on the impact of natural disasters in the slightest to come close to concluding that they are directed by a God. Natural disasters impact all races, religions and culture indiscriminately. I find arguments that invoke natural disasters a God's will as sickening arguments that portray God as a bloodthirsty, egotistical, spiteful tyrant.

Where are your sources of your definition of proof and evidence?

[kay106]

Greetings Kay,


One more time, just for you. I'll put it in big letters if it helps:

On a different note, can I comment on the "debate" that is running at the moment in this thread? I don't mean to interrupt, but things seem to be going nowhere. Until certain posters are willing to read and think carefully about the responses of other members, I don't really see how any progress can be made.

Also, you might find that insulting people makes them less willing to discuss things with you. If you want to have a debate, then go ahead, but if you just want to insult people then you should probably take it elsewhere.

Peace

What do you want? What did I not think carefully about? I am being honest about the way I feel, if I am wrong proove me wrong, if you can I will accept it, I do give arguments every chance they deserve!

[kay106]

Greetings Kay,


One more time, just for you. I'll put it in big letters if it helps:

On a different note, can I comment on the "debate" that is running at the moment in this thread? I don't mean to interrupt, but things seem to be going nowhere. Until certain posters are willing to read and think carefully about the responses of other members, I don't really see how any progress can be made.

Also, you might find that insulting people makes them less willing to discuss things with you. If you want to have a debate, then go ahead, but if you just want to insult people then you should probably take it elsewhere.

Peace

I think you need to re-read all my posts and think carefully about what I have said, I think you are getting the wrong end of the stick! Read it carefully tell me where I am going wrong, make sure you have your proof, in other words the make sure u have the statements i made, tell me what you think i have said, then i will clarifiy for you.

[barney]

Did you know science owes its entire existance to the muslims, off course you dont!!! LOL

oooookay. Thought we might need an example of something that you diddnt carefully think about.

[kay106]

Again I have to ask you to reread my post. None of these claims are mine, as I made clear by stating that they are the ideas of others. How did you miss that?

are you admitting that this claim is not true? The claim about monkeys and us having common ancestors?

[barney]

are you admitting that this claim is not true? The claim about monkeys and us having common ancestors?

Thats a theory. All the evidence points towards it. I'm sure Py or anyone else would not "Know" it was "True" in the same way a theist knows the truth.

[Pygoscelis]

are you admitting that this claim is not true? The claim about monkeys and us having common ancestors?

I don't know one way or the other. Nobody does for sure.

It does seem to fit the evidence that we have so far though.

[Qingu]

If I am wrong I will admit i am not, i wouldnt try to twise words around like a lot u guys,

Why do you keep on accusing us of doing things nobody is actually doing? It's very disrespectful.

I admit I could be wrong about all you guys not believing in justice. Happy?

Yes. :)

Can you prove to me that survival of the fittest is a natural law?

It's essentially a truism. I don't even understand on what basis you would even debate it. I've never actually met someone who didn't believe in the concept of "survival of the fittest."

But if all you're trying to say here is that "survival of the fittest" should not be a moral precept: that's fine, and I think you'll find that most atheists agree with you. Moral laws do not necessarily follow from natural observations.

Are you ready to face the truth and accept it? do you have the intellectual courage to say you were wrong?

Well, I certainly hope I do!

[barney]

To prove that survival of the fittest is a natural law, just do the research yourself.

Knowing about survival of the fittest dosnt mean the abcence of a creator, however it does prove that the Scriptures are flawed and therefore either mistaken or fake.

[Qingu]

To prove that survival of the fittest is a natural law, just do the research yourself.

I don't even think there's anything to research. Like I said, it's a truism. If two entities are struggling against each other—whether it's lobsters, chimpanzees, or multinational corporations, whichever one emerges the victor is usually defined as the "fittest."

The trick here is that "fittest" has no objective qualities and is largely dependent on the environment. For example, penguins vs. puffins.

Both birds eat fish and can dive underwater. Puffins can fly, but penguins can dive further and survive harsher cold. Which species is more "fit"—that is, which species will survive more? Well, it depends where they live. In the Antarctic penguins will survive much more than puffins. Elsewhere, puffins' ability to fly will help them survive more. Their "fitness" is determined by their environment.

Similarly, imagine two corporations: Bob's Bacon, Inc., and Faram's Falafels. Which corporation is more "fit"? It depends where you're talking about. In America, Bob's Bacon is probably going to make more money than Faram's Falafels. In Saudi Arabia, the opposite is true.

I hope that helps you understand what "survival of the fittest" means.

[Muezzin]

Have we not become a little... sidetracked?

I mean, penguins and puffins are cool and all but... you know.

[syilla]

Have we not become a little... sidetracked?

I mean, penguins and puffins are cool and all but... you know.

If you look properly...there is a monkey too.

do you think you can use your power in this section! :happy:

[Woodrow]

this thread has gone as far as the Original Topic can carry it. Only question now is to find where the Zoological garden is, so it can be relocated.