Saudi justice

[MTAFFI]

Saudi punishes gang rape victim with 200 lashes

A court in the ultra-conservative kingdom of Saudi Arabia is punishing a female victim of gang rape with 200 lashes and six months in jail, a newspaper reported on Thursday.
The 19-year-old woman -- whose six armed attackers have been sentenced to jail terms -- was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

But in a new verdict issued after Saudi Arabia's Higher Judicial Council ordered a retrial, the court in the eastern town of Al-Qatif more than doubled the number of lashes to 200.

A court source told the English-language Arab News that the judges had decided to punish the woman further for "her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media."

Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine known as *******sm and forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover head-to-toe in public.

Last year, the court sentenced six Saudi men to between one and five years in jail for the rape as well as ordering lashes for the victim, a member of the minority Shiite community.

But the woman's lawyer Abdul Rahman al-Lahem appealed, arguing that the punishments were too lenient in a country where the offence can carry the death penalty.

In the new verdict issued on Wednesday, the Al-Qatif court also toughened the sentences against the six men to between two and nine years in prison.

The case has angered members of Saudi Arabia's Shiite community. The convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state.

Lahem, also a human rights activist, told AFP on Wednesday that the court had banned him from handling the rape case and withdrew his licence to practise law because he challenged the verdict.

He said he has also been summoned by the ministry of justice to appear before a disciplinary committee in December.

Lahem said the move might be due to his criticism of some judicial institutions, and "contradicts King Abdullah's quest to introduce reform, especially in the justice system."

King Abdullah last month approved a new body of laws regulating the judicial system in Saudi Arabia, which rules on the basis of sharia, or Islamic law.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

so now this poor young lady has to be physically and emotionally scarred for life?!

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Punishing a victim of a rape has nothing to do with sharia law. Whoever allowed that through the system is a complete jack-ass.

I can only hope that one day, Saudi will get kicked in the rear end and start implementing sharia properly. Though, seeing as it is ruled by a filthy rich king who's busy hi-fiving his western allies it probably won't happen any time soon.

Still, one can dream.

p.s; I like the west - I live in it!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Saudi's justice system is corrupt

The wests justice system is corrupt

Both like to abuse and tax the people

Both disobey the commands of ALlaah, naudhubillaah

[------]

:salamext:

Shouldn't Saudi's system be in accordance with the Sunnah :?

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[Malaikah]

Punishing a victim of a rape has nothing to do with sharia law. Whoever allowed that through the system is a complete jack-ass.

:sl:

If you read the article properly you will see she is being punished for breaking the law before she was raped, not for being a rape victim.

You might still disagree with it, though it is an important distinction.

EDIT- I just realised it was not your fault. The article itself is misleading. The girl was alone with the boy before the rape, not during the rape!

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:salamext:

Shouldn't Saudi's system be in accordance with the Sunnah :?

:sl:
not only saudi love.:D
:sl:

[------]

:salamext:

was initially ordered to undergo 90 lashes for "being in the car of an unrelated male at the time of the rape," the Arab News reported.

So that was before the rape, what she done wrong, that she is being punished for?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

If you read the article properly you will see she is being punished for breaking the law before she was raped, not for being a rape victim.

You might still disagree with it, though it is an important distinction.

True and thank you for pointing it out. I still think that the law in this particular case was wrong - they should have overlooked that part seeing as she was raped an' all. It seemed to me that the court was being too dogmatic as opposed to being just.

[Malaikah]

True and thank you for pointing it out. I still think that the law in this particular case was wrong - they should have overlooked that part seeing as she was raped an' all.

Actually, it is not your fault. The article got it wrong, I did not realise that at first. They are implying that she was in the car alone with a boy during the rape. (Which doesn't make sense because it was a gang rape). However I clearly remember the whole story being that she was alone with a boy (who was not involved in the rape itself) before the rape occurred.

[Tania]

:sl:

for breaking the law before she was raped, not for being a rape victim.

You might still disagree with it, though it is an important distinction.

My question would be its every girl checked up with who is she walking in the streets. Are they been punished at lashes when they are catch with an unrelated boy :?


Case I(i will search for more ):
JEDDAH - The District Court here made an African girl who was caught driving a car in northern Jeddah sign an undertaking not to drive in Saudi Arabia.

Women are not allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia.

A police patrol had caught the girl while she was driving a car in the company of a boy seated next to her.

The court sentenced the boy to two months in prison and 100 lashes.

Source: http://www.saudigazette.com.sa/index...40025&Itemid=1



In this case the woman was in the company of a man, unrelated man and she got nothing.
I agree she didn't satisfied some men pleasures like the other "lucky woman".

[tomtomsmom]

The rape aside, beatings and jail time for riding in a car with a boy is a bit overdone. There are better ways of handling a situation like that. It is also very upsetting that her attackers only got 2-9 years. One would think that a crime like that would have a harsher sentence to it.

[aamirsaab]

The rape aside, beatings and jail time for riding in a car with a boy is a bit overdone. There are better ways of handling a situation like that. It is also very upsetting that her attackers only got 2-9 years. One would think that a crime like that would have a harsher sentence to it.

For some weird reason, the punishment for rape never seems to be harsh enough - in the UK it's only a couple of years in jail and in saudi it's a max (in this case) of 9.

Under true sharia law I believe the punishment is far more harsher - and it should be.

[tomtomsmom]

For some weird reason, the punishment for rape never seems to be harsh enough - in the UK it's only a couple of years in jail and in saudi it's a max (in this case) of 9.

Under true sharia law I believe the punishment is far more harsher - and it should be.

Under true sharia isn't it punishable by death?

[aamirsaab]

Under true sharia isn't it punishable by death?

Not 100% sure. I'll have to check cus there might be excpetions to the rule etc.

[MTAFFI]

First off, I would like to acknowledge as many others have on this thread that Saudi doesnt practice Islamic law, although it does take things from it

With that said, I have to say if you live in a land and you know the laws and your break them you should expect punishment, although on the other hand this poor girl was raped by 6 men, which I cant imagine is a walk in the park for any woman (maybe some from south L.A.). I guess I just feel bad for her given the circumstance, but hey that is just the world we live in

[S_87]

:sl:

very sad

[Malaikah]

The rape aside, beatings and jail time for riding in a car with a boy is a bit overdone. There are better ways of handling a situation like that. It is also very upsetting that her attackers only got 2-9 years. One would think that a crime like that would have a harsher sentence to it.

I remember a case in Australia were a man raped his own daughter and only got something like 4 years. Talk about shocking!

And yes, rape can carry the maximum penalty of death however in order for death to be handed out there must be 100% certainty that the rape was committed and the woman had done absolutely nothing to incite the rape. (Note- incite used only for lack of better term).

Before any one jumps down my throat, it is simply a principle of Islamic law that the maximum punishment can't be handed out in any case were the crime is made easier. For example, if a person gets out of his car, leave the keys and does not lock or close the door, and the car get stolen, the thief would actually get a lighter punishment than if the car was turned off and locked since the crime was made more tempting for him.

[wilberhum]

I remember a case in Australia were a man raped his own daughter and only got something like 4 years. Talk about shocking!

And yes, rape can carry the maximum penalty of death however in order for death to be handed out there must be 100% certainty that the rape was committed and the woman had done absolutely nothing to incite the rape.

Before any one jumps down my throat, it is simply a principle of Islamic law that the maximum punishment can't be handed out in any case were the crime is made easier. For example, if a person gets out of his car, leave the keys and does not lock or close the door, and the car get stolen, the thief would actually get a lighter punishment than if the car was turned off and locked since the crime was made more tempting for him.

What act do you think would incite rape?

[snakelegs]

this poor girl was raped by 6 men, which I cant imagine is a walk in the park for any woman (maybe some from south L.A.)

what are you saying here - women from south L.A. (=black or latino) wouldn't mind being raped by 6 men??????
:thumbs_do

[wilberhum]

what are you saying here - women from south L.A. (=black or latino) wouldn't mind being raped by 6 men??????
:thumbs_do

If I may speak for MTAFFI or at least state what my interpertation was.

It would be like a walk in the park because she wasn't raped by 26 men.

But what I really would like to know is:
What act do you think would incite rape?

[NoName55]

what are you saying here - women from south L.A. (=black or latino) wouldn't mind being raped by 6 men??????
:thumbs_do

well spotted! pity that had I reported it, I would not have been able to convince any MOD as to what it meant, not even If I had a million years to spend on them :(

[Jayda]

(maybe some from south L.A.).

you have no idea how humiliating and painful it is to be raped, or how scarring it is for the rest of your life. how scared you are that you might be pregnant or have a disease, how cold and numb you feel to be treated like that or how it feels to know you are a 'rape victim' for the rest of your life, like it is a title or a part of your identity, and to think that everybody sees you as a 'rape victim.' it is not a 'walk in the park'

[Malaikah]

What act do you think would incite rape?

A prostitute being with a client and backs out at the last minute but the man continues anyway.

That doesn't mean he is right, but the woman is obviously less innocent than a woman minding her own business doing her shopping and gets plucked off the street, and the men would deserve different punishments.

I wouldn't call it inciting rape, but it is putting ones self at risk of rape, and making it easier for the rapist.

[north_malaysian]

EDIT- The girl was alone with the boy before the rape

But with 200 lashes punishment? which is 100 more lashes than adultery?

Committing close-proximity in secluded place (Khalwat) is not under hudood punishment, thus the punishment must be lesser than hudood...right? :exhausted

[Tania]

But with 200 lashes punishment? which is 100 more lashes than adultery?

Committing close-proximity in secluded place (Khalwat) is not under hudood punishment, thus the punishment must be lesser than hudood...right? :exhausted

Do you think she will survive to 200 lashes :( :?

[Malaikah]

But with 200 lashes punishment? which is 100 more lashes than adultery?

Committing close-proximity in secluded place (Khalwat) is not under hudood punishment, thus the punishment must be lesser than hudood...right? :exhausted

:sl:

Allahu a'lam, but it was increased because she went to the media... which is a different crime. Does it make a difference?

[Amadeus85]

What act do you think would incite rape?

One sheik from Australia said that every woman without hijab on head is inciting rape. After that he was forced to apologize.

[S_87]

One sheik from Australia said that every woman without hijab on head is inciting rape. After that he was forced to apologize.

was that his exact quote or were his words twisted?

[Tania]

One sheik from Australia said that every woman without hijab on head is inciting rape. After that he was forced to apologize.

In what society we are living :(. I am not suprised he was forced to apologize because otherwise this sentence prove the simple fact the men are going back from the evolution process.

[north_malaysian]

Do you think she will survive to 200 lashes :( :?

100 lashes for unmarried adulterers, and stone to death for married adulterers... which means those unmarried adulterers are meant to survive...

but 200 lashes... I dont know... that's why there should be no harsher punishment than the punishment prescribed in the Koran and Sunna.

God doesnt command 200 lashes punishment... maybe because it's over the limit.. and could cause death...

Imagine if the girl is dead after 200 lashes... then her status is no different to married adulterers... even she's unmarried.

[north_malaysian]

:sl:

Allahu a'lam, but it was increased because she went to the media... which is a different crime. Does it make a difference?

I dont say that she's innocent for making herself "available" to be raped by those satans (I'm blaming the victim and the rapists)...

But the punishment should be lesser than God prescribed in the Koran. If she had to be punished with 200 lashes.. it's better for her to have sex two times on her own free will ... right?

And about "went to the media"... I dont see anything wrong with that...

[ayesha309]

i feel sorry for the victim becuase i feel 200 lashes is a lot and that it would probably cause death; especialy considering she is the "victim".
that being said, maybe we do not know the whole story, like maybe some important part of the story has been eliminated from the media which may justify the 200 lashes. like we do not know if she instigated the men to rape; and if she did instigate, then to what extent.
if she is being punished for something she did not do, then Allah will give her rewards and Insha'Allah jannah. on the ohter hand, perhaps some of her action may have been very wrong which is why Allah wants her punished. Allah'alam.

[Whatsthepoint]

was that his exact quote or were his words twisted?

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?
Now, I don't think he was discussing the roast he left outside the other day...:mmokay:

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

:X

[Tania]

that being said, maybe we do not know the whole story, like maybe some important part of the story has been eliminated from the media which may justify the 200 lashes. like we do not know if she instigated the men to rape; and if she did instigate, then to what extent.

I am still wondering how can a woman to instigate at rape 6 men. I don't think they would hide any part of the story in condition when the story its in the media.

[Tania]

[I]
The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

:X

How convenient. Lets lock up the woman inside of the house then. Or better why are they not redefining who its the master of the house because a man with such a weak way to think and behave cannot control a family.

[S_87]

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?
Now, I don't think he was discussing the roast he left outside the other day...:mmokay:

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

:X

ok those words are insensitive if he said that, (the first part, the second part makes total sense if you understand the meaning) and i am not for what is happening to this lady.

however should blame be put totally on men when a woman is scantily clad? are men such animals they cant control their desires? many men say 'these women led them on.' yes they are wrong for raping and in many cases the women are totally innocent but in many cases women also have provoled the men by wearing 'sexy' clothes. for who? for herself? no, for men to see her.
you can disagree if you want but if it was for herself she wouldnt be wearing it only when shes out ....

islam gave women much honour. one of these honours is to protect the woman from such a case. not every man is a rapist or human an adulterer but the thing is-you dont know until its too late. which is why women are to cover

[Jayda]

hola

i consider myself a modestly dressed person, although by western and probably not by islamic standards. most of the time i wear turtleneck sweaters and skirts of modest length. nevertheless i am still called a 'tease' very often by drunk people or jerks in public who are angry when i don't respond to cat calls or other kinds of irritation.

there are people in the world who, regardless of what you are wearing, believe it is okay to harass you just because of your age and gender. but this is not so of gentlemen or just normal men who i speak to throughout the day... nobody leers at me or says inappropriate things. i live in the same town i grew up in and i interact with the same people i have for many many years so they still think of me as esteban's little girl :) there are a lot of kind people in my life, from the baker to the postman.

i think the only thing which makes me feel uncomfortable from people in this echelon are some boys i grew up with who i know have very strong feelings for me, that they have not ever admitted and they are gentlemen though to continue not saying anything.

i think for everybody it is the same, there are incontinent and rude people who cannot control their behavior, and there are good people who are polite and not rude.

because of this 'leading people on' with the way one dresses is a matter of opinion based on their level of self control. in my mind it makes sense to dress modestly according to the standards of the people i respect, rather than modest according to what will keep non selfgoverning people away from me.

i do not mean to insult, but i think that is kind of what islam requires... dress that will even prevent attracting attention from incontinent people. while i think it is sweet that muslims value women so much that they want to prevent them from experiencing that kind of behavior, i think it would be much much better to try to control the behavior of those people instead.

in any instance i do not agree at all that women could share blame in being raped. i also think that those kinds of thoughts are very dangerous because very often the victim wants to blame herself or look for ways she could have done something differently and by saying things like this it only adds fuel to the fire.

rape is not always about desire... i think humiliation or anger are every bit as important in motivating rapists. like murder it is antisocial behavior, something is wrong, with them, to do such a thing.

que Dios te bendiga

[al-muslimah]

By aamisaab
"
Punishing a victim of a rape has nothing to do with sharia law. Whoever allowed that through the system is a complete jack-ass. "

What did you expect the saudi so called islamic government kills the true scholars let alone punishing a rape victim.Some islamic government they are all apostates, the saudi royal family, al saud. complete murtadeen.

[Jayda]

also, one more thing if i may

saudi culture in the news is not the same thing as saudi culture. the general perception is that saudis are all wealthy, tasteless and extravagant, severely misogynist and abusive, religious lunatics and barbaric. with that frame of mind people look at things in saudi arabia and interpret based on this.

the way saudi women dress is such an example... i think the media and in general this is percieved as part of the misogyny we assume is so fundamental to saudi arabia. but i know saudis from college and i have seen things (like the clip in the non muslim womens section) on youtube or on myspace from young saudi women about their lives which shows a much different picture... that saudi fathers (especially), husbands and brothers are VERY protective of the women in their lives and that constant monitering and modesty are a matter of their safety and not to control them.

my friend samira from college was really interesting, her father sent her to the united states to columbia university so that she could get the absolute best education. people acted like this was some very rare thing and that her father must have been very liberal or unusual, she said this was very normal in her country and that it was considered by many fathers just as big a dishonor that a woman should be ignorant,than as a woman should wear immodest clothing.

like any parent they want intelligent, happy and successful daughters.

but the thing that really surprised me was that she said honor is not the most important thing. protection and the happyness of their children was more important.

i also have seen this in videos on the internet, one recently (again, the one in the non muslim womens section) talked about how a woman was encouraged by her husband to work and continue writing because they needed the money, she enjoyed doing it, and he thought she would like it :)

none of these things conforms to the stereotypes so they are conveniently forgotten. instead the most outrageous stories make our newspapers, about girls being burned to death in schools or 200 lashes for being raped. while i know these things are true, i think i can safely say saudi husbands, fathers and brothers are just as appalled and offended by this as we are.

i am not without evidence, one such example was the saudi newswoman who was beaten so badly by her husband that she was hospitalized and when the pictures were released there was such a public outcry that he has been sent numerous death threats. it is not a joke to them, this is not their culture.

while i do not think it is necessary to wear full length clothing hiding every part of a woman's body, or to be sure that there is a trustworthy male protector for her everywhere... i do not deny that this is done out of love and not control

so let's not confuse abhorrent things for the status quo

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

here is an article about ms. baz

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3667349.stm

[islamirama]

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat?
Now, I don't think he was discussing the roast he left outside the other day...:mmokay:

The sheik then said: "If she was in her room, in her home, in her hijab, no problem would have occurred."

He said women were "weapons" used by "Satan" to control men.

"It is said in the state of zina (adultery), the responsibility falls 90 per cent of the time on the woman. Why? Because she possesses the weapon of enticement (igraa)."

:X

I know sisters from that community who know the sheikh. The media twisted everything to make him look bad. It's all political games going on there, election time is near.

[ayesha309]

i think you make a good point sis Jayda; that Saudi men are trying to PROTECT their women, not control them. although that's not necessarily for Saudi men only; i see that occurring in Muslim families.
as for the other debate, i think a man is least likely to rape a women who is wearin an abaya, and who covers her hair and face; simply becuase he finds nothing of hers attractive. and if she exposes the slighest bit that maybe one of the reason for her rape.
Hence Islam wants to protect its women and that is one of the reasons why Islam requires the women to cover themselves. and Allah knows best

[Whatsthepoint]

I know sisters from that community who know the sheikh. The media twisted everything to make him look bad. It's all political games going on there, election time is near.

The controversy sorounding his statements took place more than a year ago..

[islamirama]

The controversy sorounding his statements took place more than a year ago..

yes i know, howard was beating the drum of local "sleeper cells" like US at that time. He was scaring his public into giving him more power. And media was helping him by making this sheikh look like a "radical" who wouldn't fit in to aussie society. Like i said, i know the locals there who are more aware of the facts when anyone here.

[Tania]

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya :? Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open :? Is this allowed :?

[~Taalibah~]

Not 100% sure. I'll have to check cus there might be excpetions to the rule etc.

Isn't it death for adultery?

The men that raped her should be lashed 200 times! As well as jailed double the time!
Although i still think she should get punished for being out with men, 200 lashes do not sound the correct method, at all.

Tania
In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open Is this allowed

I wish i knew! When i went there 8 years ago all the women dressed in abaya and hijaab. Now i believe it is not always the case...

[Amadeus85]

Maybe the thing is that the victim was actually a shiite woman and the rapists were sunni men. Maybe thats why Saudi court made such decision.

[barney]

"Theres noone late at night getting Rowdy.
On the streets or the houses in Saudi
Where the rule of the law is enforced
By the whip and the chain and the sword."

[S_87]

"Theres noone late at night getting Rowdy.
On the streets or the houses in Saudi
Where the rule of the law is enforced
By the whip and the chain and the sword."

haha but totally untrue. night is when the action starts :shade:and they may not be drunk but V rowdy

oh tania

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open Is this allowed

abayas are necessary. in more open places like riyadh and jeddah i believe tourists can get away with not covering their heads but they must be dressed modestly.

anyway, from arabic sources it seems- the woman was having an affair with the man she was with (she was married)
she and her lover confessed to a relationship- the one thing that spared them from being given punishment of death is no proof of sexual intercourse.
the men found them together she was not clothed.
it has not been confirmed whether she was raped the men said that in forced confession.

[جوري]

the operative word here is 'produce not witnesses' I believe rape is punishable by death...Allah a3lam of course but this was the subject of a controversy recently.

cheers

[Whatsthepoint]

yes i know, howard was beating the drum of local "sleeper cells" like US at that time. He was scaring his public into giving him more power. And media was helping him by making this sheikh look like a "radical" who wouldn't fit in to aussie society. Like i said, i know the locals there who are more aware of the facts when anyone here.

You could be right, news are often biased towards a certain political option. However, in a free country like Austalia, there's also independent, anti-governent, anti-Howard press, which he doesn't control..

Yesterday, the mufti defended the sermon about "adultery and theft", a recorded copy of which has been obtained and translated by The Australian.

Sheik Hilali said he only meant to refer to prostitutes as "meat" and not any scantily dressed woman with no hijab, despite him not mentioning the word prostitute during the 17-minute talk.

Now, that's word-twisting.:mad:

Muslim community leaders were yesterday outraged and offended by Sheik Hilali's remarks, insisting the cleric was no longer worthy of his title as Australia's mufti.

Young Muslim adviser Iktimal Hage-Ali - who does not wear a hijab - said the Islamic headdress was not a "tool" worn to prevent rape and sexual harassment. "It's a symbol that readily identifies you as being Muslim, but just because you don't wear the headscarf doesn't mean that you're considered fresh meat for sale," the former member of John Howard's Muslim advisory board told The Australian. "The onus should not be on the female to not attract attention, it should be on males to learn how to control themselves."

Australia's most prominent female Muslim leader, Aziza Abdel-Halim, said the hijab did not "detract or add to a person's moral standards", while Islamic Council of Victoria spokesman Waleed Ali said it was "ignorant and naive" for anyone to believe that a hijab could stop sexual assault.

"Anyone who is foolish enough to believe that there is a relationship between rape or unwelcome sexual interference and the failure to wear a hijab, clearly has no understanding of the nature of sexual crime," he said.

Ms Hage-Ali said she was "disgusted and offended" by Shiek Hilali's comments. "I find it very offensive that a man who considers himself as a mufti, a leader of Australia's Muslims, can give comment that lacks intelligence and common sense."

As you said: locals know best.:okay:

I don't think he fits into australian society...I don't think muslims fit into any western society. And I think you feel the same - after all you wanna change some of its very foundations. Of course that doesn't mean you aren't suppossed to live here. It doesn't mean you're not entitled to free speech. Thus I don't really think the apology was necessary no matter what the sheikh said..

[جوري]

In Saudi its not compulsory to wear abaya :? Can you go, like muslim woman, on the streets wearing other type of clothes more open :? Is this allowed :?

depends on where in Saudi Arabia...I lived in Riyadh and visited my aunt in Jeddah which is port city in western Saudi Arabia on the Red Sea.. and women there didn't dress conservatively at all... I can't say they were wearing bikinis on the beach, but many weren't in abayas and some didnt even have their head covered...of course there are other places like Dammam, Khobar, and Dhahran where I have never been, and not quite sure of their habits..

I kind of miss Saudi Arabia at times...

[InToTheRain]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

[PIE]The woman in the car was married. She was having an affair with the man whose car she was in. She ADMITTED to having an illicit affair. The husband found out two months AFTER the event happened, and he is the one who complained.

So what happened was that the young married woman was having an affair and she went to the spot in the middle of the night.

The group of men saw the couple having sexual relations at that spot, and according to them (the group of men), they saw her naked. According to the testimony of the men, the woman panicked and she offered herself to the men if they would remain quiet about the whole thing, as she was worried that her husband would find out. Some of the men said that they weren't even there for this incident, and others confessed to only having witnessing it. And even those that confessed to this said they were forced into confessions by the police.

That was the story given by the men. As one brother pointed out on another forum, how could the judge order the DEATH penalty on these men based on the single testimony of a young immoral woman? A woman who did not report the incident herself but rather was confronted about it months later?

I knew of a classmate in America who was having relations with a female, and they were being intimate in her house when her mother walked in on them. She immediately threw the boy off and yelled "rape!" And the guy was charged even though it was consensual.

So this woman did not go to the police herself after this event happened, but rather this is what she told months afterward when confronted about it by her husband.

And then the woman betrayed her Ummah by taking it to the media and making it a media scandal. She spun the story in her favor, and tried having the media influence the judge. She wanted the media to become the judge, jury, and executioner. And so this was why the punishment against her was doubled, as a penalty for trying to influence the courts through the media. In the process, she made a mockery of Islam, plastering this over BBC news. I remember joking around with my Pakistani friend that he could easily get a VISA to America if he just claimed that he was gay and being persecuted in Pakistan for that. Then of course some group in America would make a media skeptical out of it and he'd get that visa and a standing ovation. My point is that you can easily get the kufaar to cheer for you, get what you want, and the only one who suffers is the image of Islam which is then mocked in the media.

The truth is that we don't know if the men raped her or not. The woman says they did and they deny that. Working against the woman is the fact that she didn't report the case and only claimed it after the fact. But what was uncontested fact was that the woman was having an illicit affair outside of her marriage, and so the judges punished her for what they knew for a fact.

[/PIE]

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

[NoName55]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:
.......

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

:sl:

I seem to remember me succeeding in getting deleted, a thread on this very case not too long ago, In which the non-Muslims were feigning excessive outrage at the alleged barbaric treatment of this woman. and I remember Br. Woodrow clarifying it, to paraphrase him: if a criminal (according to legislation of a country) is victim of a crime, does that wipe clean their offence?

Question:

in the ultra "civilised" west when an inmate (be they in police cells or in jail) suffers rape or assault at hands of other inmates or guards, are their crimes forgiven since they have been offended against too?

[Jayda]

si,

that is a logical point. but corporal punishment is cruel and barbaric... i think more than anything that is what nonmuslims would find most abhorrent. whether it is for being a rape victim or for commiting adultery, lashes are barbaric.

que Dios te bendiga

[barney]

Lashes are Barbaric in modern day sensibilities only.
the British army finally stopped flogging in 1907 replacing it with Field punishment Number One, (being tied to a howitzer Wheel in the blazing Sun).
Admittedly public pressure had been exerted since the 1830's.

What I'm saying is flogging may be seen as barbaric today, but it has divine approval in both Islam and Christianity and judism.

It brings about the question. Are we in banning flogging in the west, going against gods specific command?
The obvious answer is YES, of course we are. To say that flogging is barbaric is calling God barbaric. The God portrayed in scripture is just, as he says that he is just. Therefore Flogging is just and we are erring in our ways to reject it.

All that the Saudi's are doing is carrying out his instructions.

[جوري]

I guess that is the point.. you humiliate and hurt someone with rape, hopefully you'll get humiliated in public and in like wise painful way not just physical but emotional-- because that is exactly the impact you leave on the person whom you violated... Have you ever met a rape victom? There is no word to describe someone so broken.. frankly until you see it, you'd want to find the sob and release your rage in exactly such a fashion..

easy to deem something as barbaric when sitting comfortably and safe with your loved ones, not understanding the impact of the event... Sometimes I feel people sympathize more with the criminal than the victim..sobhan Allah
cheers

[Woodrow]

We shall now return to the original topic.

[barney]

The threads about Saudi Justice, we have to have a bit of Flogging and hanging in such a thread.

You wouldnt have a Thread on USA justice without the odd electric chair creeping in a bit eh?

[Jayda]

couldn't agree more.. it seems every thread has this way about it.. you could be headed for the Bonnie Banks of Loch Lomond and still take a detour to Saudi or Iran or Islam's so-called 'brutal barbarous and savage system'

it is getting tedious

:w:

strangely, this was my original point... about stereotypes and how saudis are often as outraged by these kinds of things as westerners are... what happened to the anchor, ms baz, is a really good example. there was public outcry all over the kingdom.

corporal punishment is a separate matter... i consider that cruel, nobody will change my mind... but you may create a new topic on it if you wish.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

The threads about Saudi Justice, we have to have a bit of Flogging and hanging in such a thread.

You wouldnt have a Thread on USA justice without the odd electric chair creeping in a bit eh?

also cruel and barbaric

[Woodrow]

I am currently in the process of trying to return this thread to topic. I should be finished in a minute. Until then

:threadclo:

[Woodrow]

Thread is now reopened. If I over looked any posts that need deleting please PM me. I am baby sitting grand kids but I will get back to this thread asap if needed.

[Jayda]

Lashes are Barbaric in modern day sensibilities only.
the British army finally stopped flogging in 1907 replacing it with Field punishment Number One, (being tied to a howitzer Wheel in the blazing Sun).
Admittedly public pressure had been exerted since the 1830's.

What I'm saying is flogging may be seen as barbaric today, but it has divine approval in both Islam and Christianity and judism.

It brings about the question. Are we in banning flogging in the west, going against gods specific command?
The obvious answer is YES, of course we are. To say that flogging is barbaric is calling God barbaric. The God portrayed in scripture is just, as he says that he is just. Therefore Flogging is just and we are erring in our ways to reject it.

All that the Saudi's are doing is carrying out his instructions.

I guess that is the point.. you humiliate and hurt someone with rape, hopefully you'll get humiliated in public and in like wise painful way not just physical but emotional-- because that is exactly the impact you leave on the person whom you violated... Have you ever met a rape victom? There is no word to describe someone so broken.. frankly until you see it, you'd want to find the sob and release your rage in exactly such a fashion..

easy to deem something as barbaric when sitting comfortably and safe with your loved ones, not understanding the impact of the event... Sometimes I feel people sympathize more with the criminal than the victim..sobhan Allah
cheers

hola,

barney, i was under the impression you are not a christian... according to the Catholic faith not everything in the bible is necessarily a command to follow that behavior. the Church teaches, under the authority of God, that mistreating people in that manner as well as the death penalty are cruel and sinful behavior. needless to say it is not an insult to God to go against corporal punishment, and according to my beliefs it is not His will.

purestambrosia i think you touched on two of the many reasons lashing is wrong... it is not about justice it is about releasing rage, which is wrong and only cuts deeper. but you also said 'in exactly such a fashion' which (perhaps i misinterpreted) i think is the essence of the problem... responding cruelty with cruelty.

rapists should be punished for their crimes, but not in ways that compromise the sanctity of life and with the hope that someday they will understand, repent and seek forgiveness. lashing is about anger, justice is something else. i do not know if you have ever seen the results of someone being excoriated but it is impossible to see without feeling sympathy for them... no matter who they are or what they have done.

people are humans, they have value and that value must be honored regardless of who they are. when we treat other people in ways we would call cruel even if we did it to animals then we ignore that value.

but that's all i have to say on the subject... obviously lashing is not the topic, but i do have reasons for calling this practice barbaric.

que Dios te bendiga

[north_malaysian]

Do Saudi courts have official law reports.... if they do maybe we could study the case from A to Z regarding to the facts of the case, defence, evidence, witnesses etc.

[barney]

hola,

barney, i was under the impression you are not a christian... according to the Catholic faith not everything in the bible is necessarily a command to follow that behavior. the Church teaches, under the authority of God, that mistreating people in that manner as well as the death penalty are cruel and sinful behavior. needless to say it is not an insult to God to go against corporal punishment, and according to my beliefs it is not His will.

Nope im not Christian.
Moses got his commands to Stone and Flog from God for the specified offences. The whole point of a religion is to trust worship and OBAY your chosen deity.
The Deity has told us what he wants, if a particular faith chooses to ignore it or beleive it's not his will, then fine, im actually happy about that, cos i'm here working on a sunday and the last thing i need is the local christians to burst through my Ward's front doors and start lobbing bricks at me because my mum chose to have a cross painted on my head with water when i was 6 months old.

What I'm saying is , if God has ultimate authority, and we beleive his commandments, why are we chucking out the ones that become socially unacceptable?

[islamirama]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

[pie]The woman in the car was married. She was having an affair with the man whose car she was in. She ADMITTED to having an illicit affair. The husband found out two months AFTER the event happened, and he is the one who complained.

So what happened was that the young married woman was having an affair and she went to the spot in the middle of the night.

The group of men saw the couple having sexual relations at that spot, and according to them (the group of men), they saw her naked. According to the testimony of the men, the woman panicked and she offered herself to the men if they would remain quiet about the whole thing, as she was worried that her husband would find out. Some of the men said that they weren't even there for this incident, and others confessed to only having witnessing it. And even those that confessed to this said they were forced into confessions by the police.

That was the story given by the men. As one brother pointed out on another forum, how could the judge order the DEATH penalty on these men based on the single testimony of a young immoral woman? A woman who did not report the incident herself but rather was confronted about it months later?

I knew of a classmate in America who was having relations with a female, and they were being intimate in her house when her mother walked in on them. She immediately threw the boy off and yelled "rape!" And the guy was charged even though it was consensual.

So this woman did not go to the police herself after this event happened, but rather this is what she told months afterward when confronted about it by her husband.

And then the woman betrayed her Ummah by taking it to the media and making it a media scandal. She spun the story in her favor, and tried having the media influence the judge. She wanted the media to become the judge, jury, and executioner. And so this was why the punishment against her was doubled, as a penalty for trying to influence the courts through the media. In the process, she made a mockery of Islam, plastering this over BBC news. I remember joking around with my Pakistani friend that he could easily get a VISA to America if he just claimed that he was gay and being persecuted in Pakistan for that. Then of course some group in America would make a media skeptical out of it and he'd get that visa and a standing ovation. My point is that you can easily get the kufaar to cheer for you, get what you want, and the only one who suffers is the image of Islam which is then mocked in the media.

The truth is that we don't know if the men raped her or not. The woman says they did and they deny that. Working against the woman is the fact that she didn't report the case and only claimed it after the fact. But what was uncontested fact was that the woman was having an illicit affair outside of her marriage, and so the judges punished her for what they knew for a fact.

[/pie]

As far as I know, the punishment for fornication before marriage is Lashes. The death penalty applies for adultery after marriage provided there is 4 witnesses, the same for rape. Correct me if I am wrong.

I think that about sums it up. Nothing more we can add to it other than just our opinions on limited evidence. She clearly was in the wrong, and saudi was actually lenient on her for adultery due to lack of evidence or she could've face death penalty. Anyways, lot we still don't know so best leave this where its at with what the bro provided to shed some light on it.

(requesting thread close)

[Tania]

There is a lot of central info missing in this article. I have been snooping around and some have posted regarding this case from Arab news sources:

Are you sure its still the same case :?
1.I blame the society for what happened. May be she was forced to marry with that man and she had no option for divorce. In this days, in Saudi can you divorce from the husband or you have to wait until he makes the first move :?

2. Giving to a woman a sentence of 200 lashes, they are sentencing her to death.

3. I no wonder the woman hide the rape because only the thought of lashes ....

4. If the women in certain cities can dress humble but not according to the muslims rules how are this mutaween protecting the virtue and preventing the vice. I can't find the royal decree m/37 from 1980 in which must be write what are doing this people exactly.

[Malaikah]

anyway, from arabic sources it seems- the woman was having an affair with the man she was with (she was married)
she and her lover confessed to a relationship- the one thing that spared them from being given punishment of death is no proof of sexual intercourse.
the men found them together she was not clothed.
it has not been confirmed whether she was raped the men said that in forced confession.

:sl:

How disgusting!!!!! They made it sound like the girl was totally innocent. This is seriously just pathetic, lowest example of crappy biased journalism I have ever seen!

[tomtomsmom]

None of us know what really happened. We can read all the stories about it that we want but none of us were there and none of us know this woman. It is not our place to pass judgment on her.

Personally, I don't care if she was walking down the street butt naked! It still doesn't give anyone the right to violate her that way!!!!!

[islamirama]

None of us know what really happened. We can read all the stories about it that we want but none of us were there and none of us know this woman. It is not our place to pass judgment on her.

Personally, I don't care if she was walking down the street butt naked! It still doesn't give anyone the right to violate her that way!!!!!

Like you said, none of us know what really happend. So you can't say "violate her" at all. As posted here, she was having an affair and after being discovered, she offered her self (not violated) to hide her act from her husband and law. And then she cries rape after 2 months later? when her husband finds out? And then she tries to use the media coverage to pressure the law to let her get away?

But like you said, no one really knows the exact details. But the information provided by Rashid does shed some light around the case. Best we all can do is just let is be and move on (to other threads).

[wilberhum]

A prostitute being with a client and backs out at the last minute but the man continues anyway.

That doesn't mean he is right, but the woman is obviously less innocent than a woman minding her own business doing her shopping and gets plucked off the street, and the men would deserve different punishments.

I wouldn't call it inciting rape, but it is putting ones self at risk of rape, and making it easier for the rapist.

So the example you gave is not an example of "inciting rape". But I ask what was an example. So could you give us an example of a woman "Inciting Rape"?

[جوري]

^^^ lol yes.. but the photos wouldn't be apropos for an Islamic website...

cheers

[barney]

^^^ lol yes.. but the photos wouldn't be apropos for an Islamic website...

cheers

Your going to show a picture of a woman in a tight skirt?

Are they inciting rape?

[PIC REMOVED]

This lady has her hair on show and her shoulders exposed. Basically she is screaming to all men..Rape me, because I am a slattern. She deserves therefore what she receives from men, who are merely responding in a natural way to her debauchery.

[islamirama]

Your going to show a picture of a woman in a tight skirt?

Are they inciting rape?


This lady has her hair on show and her shoulders exposed. Basically she is screaming to all men..Rape me, because I am a slattern. She deserves therefore what she receives from men, who are merely responding in a natural way to her debauchery.

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

[Malaikah]

So the example you gave is not an example of "inciting rape". But I ask what was an example. So could you give us an example of a woman "Inciting Rape"?

No, because I never suggested that women incite rape.

[barney]

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

Were you assessing a strange, and indeed kuffar woman, in a sexual way?:muddlehea

[islamirama]

Were you assessing a strange, and indeed kuffar woman, in a sexual way?:muddlehea

i was assessing your taste in women by the selection of your picture :D

btw, people of book are halaal for us to marry among :peace:

[جوري]

if think she's pretty, you got bad taste man :thumbs_do

I know I was about to say the same thing...barn just wants us to think that, that is as far as his chaste mind will take him...:rolleyes:

:w:

[barney]

Oh my mind is like a sewer according to religious hypocritical standards. Just like the rest of humanitys. The varience is in how much it is hidden and ignored.

[جوري]

I am game with 'hidden and ignored'..would have been delighted in my ignorance knowing David Hyde pierce wasn't gay...but there he was thanking his lover publically for 24 yrs of bliss

gahhhhhhh..and bahhhhhhhh
Why couldn't he stay closeted?..I mean he waited 24 yrs was it really itching him? Did it make much of a difference? People should keep their dirty laundry to themselves or their priest..I don't want to know of it!

[InToTheRain]

Are you sure its still the same case :?

Yes Tania, it is regarding the same case, these were comments made by those who saw broadcasts relating to this issue..

1.I blame the society for what happened. May be she was forced to marry with that man and she had no option for divorce. In this days, in Saudi can you divorce from the husband or you have to wait until he makes the first move :?.

That's a lot of assumtions, key word here is "Maybe".

2. Giving to a woman a sentence of 200 lashes, they are sentencing her to death.

you don't get lashed for getting raped :ooh: regarding this case, they increased the number of lashes because she spun the story in her favor and tried to abuse the media to influence the judge. She was having an illicit affair outside of marriage which she admitted to.

3. I no wonder the woman hide the rape because only the thought of lashes ....

I don't see why they should hide it, you don't get lashed for getting raped. They lashed this woman for having illicit affairs outside marriage which she admitted according to the broadcasts.

So the example you gave is not an example of "inciting rape". But I ask what was an example. So could you give us an example of a woman "Inciting Rape"?

Wilber as for your question regarding inciting rape. Well if your walking around showing your bling blings to a theif who knows he can overpower you and get his way against you what is there to stop him? For example there were Ads here in London showing how you shouldn't show your mobile in public places for risk of getting mugged, this is a crime which is regularely commited round here unfortunately. Basically the message was to reduce the risk of getting mugged by hiding your vluables. If we apply the same logic to Rape cases, we should encourage our woman to conceal their beauty so as not to incite or reduce the risk against those who tend to deviate if given the chance.



I am no fan of Saudi...and I know many...ok ok ALL non-Muslims think the Shariah is Barbaric. But before you complain or mock the Laws others implement in order to prevent crimes I suggest you get your back yard in order first. FYI:

[PIE]1) Every two and a half minutes, somewhere in America, someone is sexually assaulted.

2) Between 1 in 4 women experienced completed or attempted rape during their college years (Fisher, Cullen, and Turner 2000). Statistics vary according to how the numbers are processed and RAINN reports the figure as 1 in 6.

3) Over 32,000 pregnancies result from rape every year (Holmes et al., 1996) CDC

SOURCE
[/PIE]

If something appears to be destructive to a community or humanity in general laws are placed to insure the pertrators of such crime dare not do it out of fear of the consequences. If it means flogging them, hanging then, stoning them, gouging their eyes out etc so be it. We don't want to be handing the perpetrators a bowl of roses now do we? as can be seen from the stats in America, your Laws aren't working...

Personally, I do not accept Islam because I can comprehend the Shariah, I accept Islam becuase I see it as truth and I have no doubt that the Qur'an is the Words of Allah(SWT) and his fina massenger is Mohammad(SAW).
Non-Muslims who come here trying to show how barbaric our laws are do not put an iota of weight against its truth. We as Muslims find no valid argument against the truth in the Qur'an, we accept its Laws after accepting Allah(SWT) and his massenger as complete truth...not because how beautiful we thought the it's laws were.

[MTAFFI]

what are you saying here - women from south L.A. (=black or latino) wouldn't mind being raped by 6 men??????
:thumbs_do

snakelegs, snakelegs, snakelegs.... I had no idea that you thought of me as such a bigot... I am not sure exactly why or where you pulled race out of that statement and I also noticed that some others seemed to have followed suit, so let me apologize for the vagueness of my original statement which was in a nutshell "some women in south LA may take being raped by six men as a cake walk". This statement was not made in such a way to compare the emotional distress of such a situation as it was the physical distress of being sexually ravaged by six different men. South LA is home to an extremely high number of prostitutes, porno stars and other foul creatures that do such things for a living and therefore may not endure the same physical pain as this woman (assuming she is a true muslim and has yet to fornicate) and they may and probably do many times a year for pleasure, the proof is in the number of exceptionally high tapes that come out that involve the absolute male domination of a woman (sometimes over 10 men at a time) Disgusting isnt it? To me it is, which is why I half hazardly "poked" fun at them for being such drains on society, not at all because of their ethnicity, in fact some of the nastiest seem to be white! (I did an essay that involved this sort of thing while I was in college, it got an A, if I can find it I will PM it to you if you would like)

[Jayda]

you have absolutely no idea how out of bounds you just stepped, rape isn't a 'cakewalk' for anyone. many women in the pornography and sex industry are there out of intimidation by their sexual abusers or because of the emotional scars of being raped. it doesn't get easier because of experience and it's not less bad because of the circumstances of how they make a living.

[NoName55]

when these Nazis slip-up and their masks fall off and it is pointed out to them, why are they allowed to back track, save face and start from begining/afresh???? as if ....

[Tania]

I am no fan of Saudi...and I know many...ok ok ALL non-Muslims think the Shariah is Barbaric. But before you complain or mock the Laws others implement in order to prevent crimes I suggest you get your back yard in order first. FYI:

I can't finish my study over the saudi system because i can't find sites over criminal laws in english but what they are doing its to apply a law based somehow on Shariah. Even this mutaween appeared only in 1980 based on a royal decreet. They are not something in religious teachings.

[aamirsaab]

when these Nazis slip-up and their masks fall off and it is pointed out to them, why are they allowed to back track, save face and start from begining/afresh???? as if ....

Mtaffi was explaining his post, that is all.

[MTAFFI]

you have absolutely no idea how out of bounds you just stepped, rape isn't a 'cakewalk' for anyone. many women in the pornography and sex industry are there out of intimidation by their sexual abusers or because of the emotional scars of being raped. it doesn't get easier because of experience and it's not less bad because of the circumstances of how they make a living.

I dont think I stepped out of bounds at all, do you know any of these women to give reason as to why they do these things? Even if you do to me it is no more than excuse, there are jobs out there that are not humiliating and disgusting like these, yet these women choose, whether they are influenced or not, to do it because they know they can make good money. The bible and the Quran say to kill these women, yet you defend them, the sad reality is these women typically die at a young age addicted to drugs or of a sexually transmitted disease and it is no ones fault but their own, I poked fun at them because it is the truth and they disgust me. :D

[MTAFFI]

when these Nazis slip-up and their masks fall off and it is pointed out to them, why are they allowed to back track, save face and start from begining/afresh???? as if ....

as if what NoName? Go ahead, tell me what I backtracked, I never denied anything I said, I just clarified that it wasnt an ethnically based accusation. Also, I am hardly a Nazi, I have a Jewish friend, please clarify the statement though as I did above so I can understand your point. I would like to see you save a little face.

Also, how do you feel about this issue? Rather than throwing in a random insult lets hear your take on the situation and add to the conversation rather than litter it with your anti western keyboard throw-up :X

[Jayda]

I dont think I stepped out of bounds at all, do you know any of these women to give reason as to why they do these things? Even if you do to me it is no more than excuse, there are jobs out there that are not humiliating and disgusting like these, yet these women choose, whether they are influenced or not, to do it because they know they can make good money. The bible and the Quran say to kill these women, yet you defend them, the sad reality is these women typically die at a young age addicted to drugs or of a sexually transmitted disease and it is no ones fault but their own, I poked fun at them because it is the truth and they disgust me. :D

hola,

don't you have any compassion? you speak about these women like they are trash waiting to be thrown away... people have worth and are worth redeeming. we do not leave the injured ones behind to be destroyed by the elements. i worked in womens shelters before and met many of the girls who end up on the streets... very often from desperation, very often from abuse or intimidation. they are at a higher risk for rape, murder, drug abuse and disease and the certainty of dying young increases the longer they are there. if the physical scars are not enough, the emotional scars will last forever... sex loses all attachment and meaning for many, they view themselves as objects and their ambitions are destroyed.

they do not deserve to be abused and certainly not raped. they need to be helped, not kicked, that is why Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman. and you are not better than them and do not deserve better than them because you have a different set of circumstances.

que Dios te bendiga

[Woodrow]

I am aware that this thread has deviated from the original topic. However, in looking through the thread it appears it is a natural progression of the topic and in that sense is not off topic. In my opinion it is best to allow the topic to continue as it now is rather than delete a number of good posts.

So all I ask is we try to keep from reducing the thread to personal arguments as that will upset me

and the thread will go on a voyage to never-never land.

[MTAFFI]

hola,

don't you have any compassion? you speak about these women like they are trash waiting to be thrown away... people have worth and are worth redeeming. we do not leave the injured ones behind to be destroyed by the elements. i worked in womens shelters before and met many of the girls who end up on the streets... very often from desperation, very often from abuse or intimidation. they are at a higher risk for rape, murder, drug abuse and disease and the certainty of dying young increases the longer they are there. if the physical scars are not enough, the emotional scars will last forever... sex loses all attachment and meaning for many, they view themselves as objects and their ambitions are destroyed.

they do not deserve to be abused and certainly not raped. they need to be helped, not kicked, that is why Jesus stopped the stoning of the adulterous woman. and you are not better than them and do not deserve better than them because you have a different set of circumstances.

que Dios te bendiga

I have plenty of compassion, it isnt that I dont feel sorry for women being raped, I feel absolutely terrible for this young saudi woman as I stated earlier in this thread when I created it. Rape victims are forced to have sex, they are humiliated and indeed physically and emotionally scarred for life, it is a sick disgusting soulless person that commits such a heinous act and they should be executed upon proof of the heinous act.

On the other hand you have women who solicite themselves, such as the porno women, the prostitutes, etc. Where the rape victim has no choice, these women do, no matter what you say, they have a choice. Yes times get tough, yes people get desperate, but there is a choice on how to deal with such times and in my opinion that ultimately defines you as a person and is what helps you through the rest of your life. Life isnt easy, God never said it would be, but he did say he disagrees with adulterous women and prostitutes. These women stray from God in their choice to work in such a profession and in my opinion it is why they end up like the seemingly always do, dead or dying. They throw their lives away and trade their very souls for the almighty dollar, and yes I mock them for it. I am a very priviledged person today, but to say I never had a tough time would be an outright lie. Yes I could have resorted to dealing drugs and I could have found easy money, just like anyone could, but instead I took a low paying crappy job made the best of it, did what I had to do and became successful over time. Am I supposed to feel bad for a ***** who cant do the same because rather than work she would sell her body to support her addictions? (not necessarily drug)

I am sorry but I dont have compassion for those women because they choose, God didnt intend for them to live their lives in such a way. Prostitution is a pitfall of man kind, it is like a disease that has spread from the streets to the televisions and in my opinion actually encourages rape by showing such dispicable acts as common place. If they choose to carry on and not repent they could all die for all I care along with the adulterous (male or female) because they are no more than a drain to humanity.

[Hashim_507]

suadia Arabis rulers are puppets. The justice system is totally corrupted.

[Jayda]

I have plenty of compassion, it isnt that I dont feel sorry for women being raped, I feel absolutely terrible for this young saudi woman as I stated earlier in this thread when I created it. Rape victims are forced to have sex, they are humiliated and indeed physically and emotionally scarred for life, it is a sick disgusting soulless person that commits such a heinous act and they should be executed upon proof of the heinous act.

On the other hand you have women who solicite themselves, such as the porno women, the prostitutes, etc. Where the rape victim has no choice, these women do, no matter what you say, they have a choice. Yes times get tough, yes people get desperate, but there is a choice on how to deal with such times and in my opinion that ultimately defines you as a person and is what helps you through the rest of your life. Life isnt easy, God never said it would be, but he did say he disagrees with adulterous women and prostitutes. These women stray from God in their choice to work in such a profession and in my opinion it is why they end up like the seemingly always do, dead or dying. They throw their lives away and trade their very souls for the almighty dollar, and yes I mock them for it. I am a very priviledged person today, but to say I never had a tough time would be an outright lie. Yes I could have resorted to dealing drugs and I could have found easy money, just like anyone could, but instead I took a low paying crappy job made the best of it, did what I had to do and became successful over time. Am I supposed to feel bad for a ***** who cant do the same because rather than work she would sell her body to support her addictions? (not necessarily drug)

I am sorry but I dont have compassion for those women because they choose, God didnt intend for them to live their lives in such a way. Prostitution is a pitfall of man kind, it is like a disease that has spread from the streets to the televisions and in my opinion actually encourages rape by showing such dispicable acts as common place. If they choose to carry on and not repent they could all die for all I care along with the adulterous (male or female) because they are no more than a drain to humanity.

i'm not really sure what to say... that's just evil...

[Jayda]

read about this person, and talk to some of the women here. maybe it will change your mind about giving up on people.

[mujahideenryder]

Why is it called 'Saudi justice'. It's more like 'Saudi injustice'.

[MTAFFI]

read about this person, and talk to some of the women here. maybe it will change your mind about giving up on people.

Good for these women, they made a choice and the right one. I am not giving up on anyone in fact in my last line I stated "If they choose to carry on and not repent.." these women you mention are obviously repenting. To me it is the women that continue to do it without repenting that have given up on themselves, so why shouldnt I?

[MTAFFI]

Why is it called 'Saudi justice'. It's more like 'Saudi injustice'.

Because it is justice in Saudi Arabia, how could it be injustice if it is not against their legal system? Just because I dont agree with it doesnt make it unlawful for them to enforce their laws

[Jayda]

Good for these women, they made a choice and the right one. I am not giving up on anyone in fact in my last line I stated "If they choose to carry on and not repent.." these women you mention are obviously repenting. To me it is the women that continue to do it without repenting that have given up on themselves, so why shouldnt I?

hola

saying that getting raped for them is a walk in the part, you hope they die, they are a drain on humanity and using misogynist swear words to describe them isn't 'giving up.' it's never giving them a chance. you write with all of the arrogance and self satisfaction of a person whose convinced himself he's successful and he's gotten there because of his hard work, paying lip service to God so that others will think you're as righteous as you view yourself. choosing not to have compassion is not righteous, it's deplorable, speaking about rape like it's only as bad as who it happens to is equally deplorable. i sincerely hope you grow a sense of humility.

que Dios te bendiga

[NoName55]

hola

saying that getting raped for them is a walk in the part, you hope they die, they are a drain on humanity and using misogynist swear words to describe them isn't 'giving up.' it's never giving them a chance. you write with all of the arrogance and self satisfaction of a person whose convinced himself he's successful and he's gotten there because of his hard work, paying lip service to God so that others will think you're as righteous as you view yourself. choosing not to have compassion is not righteous, it's deplorable, speaking about rape like it's only as bad as who it happens to is equally deplorable. i sincerely hope you grow a sense of humility.

que Dios te bendiga

I'll just piggyback on your posts and say: Ditto because................

[MTAFFI]

hola

saying that getting raped for them is a walk in the part, you hope they die, they are a drain on humanity and using misogynist swear words to describe them isn't 'giving up.' it's never giving them a chance. you write with all of the arrogance and self satisfaction of a person whose convinced himself he's successful and he's gotten there because of his hard work, paying lip service to God so that others will think you're as righteous as you view yourself. choosing not to have compassion is not righteous, it's deplorable, speaking about rape like it's only as bad as who it happens to is equally deplorable. i sincerely hope you grow a sense of humility.

que Dios te bendiga

lol

wow from such a short conversation you can derive all that about me? I am flattered. Listen the walk in the park thing was from a physical aspect only, which I already mentioned so try and keep up, the emotional distress is probably the same for all, but I am quite sure that a woman like those I am speaking of would not take the same type of physical abuse to her woman parts as a 19 year old virgin, that should be simple enough for you to understand.

As far as me wishing they would die, please show me where I said that, I simply said it wouldnt effect me either way. They are a drain on humanity and the word that used to describe them accurately fits, you are welcome to look it up in websters, so why shouldnt i call a duck a duck?

I pay no lip service to anyone, I live my life the best that I can can these women say the same? Do they deserve my respect or compassion? I personally dont think so, how can I respect someone who doesnt respect themself? Look you can defend these women all you want but we obviously have different opinions and I dont wish to offend you any further, I hope that we can speak on another topic sometime where you can see that I am in fact a compassionate individual and I that I dont claim to be as righteous as you may think, in fact I am far from it and I know that and at times I am disgusted with myself because of it. But I do no right from wrong, I know these women are wrong, and I know that the world would be better if it didnt have people perpetrating the acts that they do in it.

[MTAFFI]

I'll just piggyback on your posts and say: Ditto because................

another delightful example of my last reply to you... wow +o(

[NoName55]

^^ I have no choice but to piggyback on to other's posts because ..... otherwise my replies vanish in to cyber bin

[Jayda]

lol

wow from such a short conversation you can derive all that about me? I am flattered. Listen the walk in the park thing was from a physical aspect only, which I already mentioned so try and keep up, the emotional distress is probably the same for all, but I am quite sure that a woman like those I am speaking of would not take the same type of physical abuse to her woman parts as a 19 year old virgin, that should be simple enough for you to understand.

As far as me wishing they would die, please show me where I said that, I simply said it wouldnt effect me either way. They are a drain on humanity and the word that used to describe them accurately fits, you are welcome to look it up in websters, so why shouldnt i call a duck a duck?

I pay no lip service to anyone, I live my life the best that I can can these women say the same? Do they deserve my respect or compassion? I personally dont think so, how can I respect someone who doesnt respect themself? Look you can defend these women all you want but we obviously have different opinions and I dont wish to offend you any further, I hope that we can speak on another topic sometime where you can see that I am in fact a compassionate individual and I that I dont claim to be as righteous as you may think, in fact I am far from it and I know that and at times I am disgusted with myself because of it. But I do no right from wrong, I know these women are wrong, and I know that the world would be better if it didnt have people perpetrating the acts that they do in it.

given what i know about your views so far i'm hard pressed to find a topic that might demonstrate you have compassion.

do you like pets?

[MTAFFI]

given what i know about your views so far i'm hard pressed to find a topic that might demonstrate you have compassion.

do you like pets?

yes I love animals and nature, kind of odd those since I also love to hunt! There ya go! I also love God, my family hmmm what else oh yeah poor people, sick people and anyone basically who isnt immoral and disgusting or doesnt contribute to the basic degeneration of mankind. I also love charities, I love travel, fishing, I love vacations too, I could probably go on and on.... I am sure there will be a thread someday that we will both agree on (or at least I would hope so otherwise I may feel a bit like a narrow minded individual)

[MTAFFI]

^^ I have no choice but to piggyback on to other's posts because ..... otherwise my replies vanish in to cyber bin

perhaps you should reword them to comply with forum rules? :? ;D

[NoName55]

perhaps you should reword them to comply with forum rules? :? ;D

tried that in the beginning and it did not work.

it has more to do with content of posts than the tone. I have been experimenting here for nearly a year. and found a definite trend and bias against reason and fairness.

[جوري]

tried that in the beginning and it did not work.

it has more to do with content of posts than the tone. I have been experimenting here for nearly a year. and found a definite trend and bias against reason and fairness.

This is actually one of the reasons I don't frequent this section...everyone gets the same news, there is no point in people sitting here all day and pretending to be political analysts.. I was never convinced of anyone else's opinion nor cared much for it, in the scheme of things with google and wiki ever handy to loan credence to very ailing argument, so that in the end you may sit there and stifle a yawn or shrug your shoulders... everyone wants to appear really 'intelligent' when in fact they haven't a clue how much of a conforming herd they actually are!-- it isn't world shattering what is huckstered here, it is nothing more than gossip discussed by sub-mediocre folks ...

:w:

[MTAFFI]

This is actually one of the reasons I don't frequent this section...everyone gets the same news, there is no point in people sitting here all day and pretending to be political analysts.. I was never convinced of anyone else's opinion nor cared much for it, in the scheme of things with google and wiki ever handy to loan credence to very ailing argument, so that in the end you may sit there and stifle a yawn or shrug your shoulders... everyone wants to appear really 'intelligent' when in fact they haven't a clue how much of a conforming herd they actually are!-- it isn't world shattering what is huckstered here, it is nothing more than gossip discussed by sub-mediocre folks ...

:w:

that isnt nice :thankyou:

[Woodrow]

that isnt nice :thankyou:

I agree, it is not nice.
















However, it is one of the truest statements I have read today. Perhaps each of us should re-examine our intent, before posting in this section.

[Malaikah]

The bible and the Quran say to kill these women, yet you defend them, the sad reality is these women typically die at a young age addicted to drugs or of a sexually transmitted disease and it is no ones fault but their own, I poked fun at them because it is the truth and they disgust me. :D

Just to clarify- the punishment for prostitution is not death in Islam. It is only death is the prostitute was married and cheating on her husband, and even then it would be almost impossible for her to be sentenced to death because of the very strict requirements of four trust worthy witnesses witnessing the whole act.

[NoName55]

The bible and the Quran say to kill these women, yet you defend them

is there social security in place for them? where are their walis(protectors, providers)?

simple childish interpretations of biblical or Quraanic Ayahs does no good to any one.


in my Utopian shariah state all causes of crimes would be removed first and foremost (before we start dishing out penalties we need to be sure that person was educated/sane enough to know the difference between right and wrong) if no such system exists then I will make do with British system of rehabilitation (without element of punishment)

edit:

Just to clarify- the punishment for prostitution is not death in Islam. It only be death is the prostitute was married and cheating on her husband, and even then it would be almost impossible for her to be sentenced to death because of the very strict requirements of four trust worthy witnesses witnessing the whole act.

in surah Al-Nisaa 4: 15 punishment for the crime of prostitution is given as house arrest till natural death (or rehabilitation?) (-- 'until God ordains for them another way' -- )

4:15. if any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if They testify, confine them to houses until death claims them, or Allah ordain for them another way.

[barney]

I agree, it is not nice

However, it is one of the truest statements I have read today. Perhaps each of us should re-examine our intent, before posting in this section.

It's pretty nice for PA to be honest. We have "intelligent" "sub-mediocre", "Herd".

It's ticking all the boxes for a Ambypost, (meaningless attacks).

So people Google their infomation. OOOH! I and millions of others flagelete themselves for lacking the intellect to go to the libary and spend 20000 hours looking up the wrong infomation. We can Google and get a broad veiw if we so incline in seconds.

Some may wish to discount personal rescerch as less valid than someone elses research (Scholars) ( Political commentary), but who deceides whos infomation is valid. Well phear not, because we have a higher intellect to guide us in that answer. And its Postcount is Mighty!

[جوري]

It's pretty nice for PA to be honest. We have "intelligent" "sub-mediocre", "Herd".

Nah..see you are confused again.. hence we state..don't enter if the subject is going to fly completely over your head...

It's ticking all the boxes for a Ambypost, (meaningless attacks).

You 'musta' taken it all too personally because the boxes especially the latter two apply to your person?!

So people Google their infomation. OOOH! I and millions of others flagelete themselves for lacking the intellect to go to the libary and spend 20000 hours looking up the wrong infomation. We can Google and get a broad veiw if we so incline in seconds.

Indeed like putting a brand new pair of glasses on an illiterate!

Some may wish to discount personal rescerch as less valid than someone elses research (Scholars) ( Political commentary), but who deceides whos infomation is valid. Well phear not, because we have a higher intellect to guide us in that answer. And its Postcount is Mighty!

and we are slightly in agreement..who decides? If by the end of the day it all comes down to your opinion vs. someone else's.. Yours I say is worth a partially eaten twinkie!


cheers

[NoName55]

This is actually one of the reasons I don't frequent this section...everyone gets the same news, there is no point in people sitting here all day and pretending to be political analysts.. I was never convinced of anyone else's opinion nor cared much for it, in the scheme of things with google and wiki ever handy to loan credence to very ailing argument, so that in the end you may sit there and stifle a yawn or shrug your shoulders... everyone wants to appear really 'intelligent' when in fact they haven't a clue how much of a conforming herd they actually are!-- it isn't world shattering what is huckstered here, it is nothing more than gossip discussed by sub-mediocre folks ...

:w:

:sl:

I believe I have as much a chance of succeeding in having a serious talk on this site as a snowball in hell, would have (of not melting).

an example so-called debate >> .<<

[جوري]

:sl:

I believe I have as much a chance of succeeding in having a serious talk on this site as a snowball in hell, would have (of not melting).

I hear ya... we have career satirists here, except not even remotely skilled so that I may be partially amused...


:w:

[MTAFFI]

Nah..see you are confused again.. hence we state..don't enter if the subject is going to fly completely over your head...



You 'musta' taken it all too personally because the boxes especially the latter two apply to your person?!


Indeed like putting a brand new pair of glasses on an illiterate!



and we are slightly in agreement..who decides? If by the end of the day it all comes down to your opinion vs. someone else's.. Yours I say is worth a partially eaten twinkie!


cheers

why so condescending? I am not sure if I was included in any of the insults but if I were you I wouldnt claim that anyone here is any more or less intelligent than yourself. Yes this is World Affairs, and no I dont think there are any political analysts here but I actually enjoy reading and discussing with other people their views, I think it is healthy to get a good dose of disagreement and in some ways it opens more doors and ways of thinking than the news could ever provide. I guess all I am saying is instead of coming in with the constant negative and sense of higher intelligence, maybe realize that you are no better than anyone else posting here and in some instances far worse. Yes at the end of the day it accomplishes nothing here to the whole, but to the person it might light some bulbs and allow them to see things from anothers perspective. If it wasnt for this babble I may have never started to read the Quran and try to learn about Islam like I am today.

PEACE PA

[جوري]

There are no light bulbs going off anywhere. It is a mudslinger match and descent into petty word play.

Otherwise sane folks lose their reason and rationality here.. as for my intellect or lack thereof, that isn't what is on trial here... rather the air of disdainfulness and patronizing of anyone whose views are considered inferior or different to mainstream fox which is gulped up here like sweet nectar!...

Frankly what you have written above is an adequate assessment of the regulars from a spectators view... just step back and have a look without writing.. it is easy to pick up!

cheers

[NoName55]

reading Quraan? Yeah Right!

look here >> http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...tml#post862026

all I saw was a distortion NOT understanding!

[al-muslimah]

Those saudi apostates ahve betrayed the ummah they don't even know correct sharia.They just sit down with their coffee and dates and are as Shaykh Feiz said " comfortable " what traitor.They are nothing like their greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat granfather Muhammad ibn saud he was atrue man whil abdulaziz and Faysal and Fahd are all murtadeen.He would have been ashamed to see them today.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Those saudi apostates ahve betrayed the ummah they don't even know correct sharia.They just sit down with their coffee and dates and are as Shaykh Feiz said " comfortable " what traitor.They are nothing like their greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat granfather Muhammad ibn saud he was atrue man whil abdulaziz and Faysal and Fahd are all murtadeen.He would have been ashamed to see them today.

:sl:
that means apostate, right?
:sl:

[al-muslimah]

Yes of course it does.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
:ooh::ooh::ooh:thats alittle heavy handed.
:sl:

[Umm Yoosuf]

Those saudi apostates ahve betrayed the ummah they don't even know correct sharia.They just sit down with their coffee and dates and are as Shaykh Feiz said " comfortable " what traitor.They are nothing like their greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat granfather Muhammad ibn saud he was atrue man whil abdulaziz and Faysal and Fahd are all murtadeen.He would have been ashamed to see them today.

Assalaamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatulaah,

And who are these people you are declaring Takfir upon? You should really be careful dear sister. Safe guard you tongue and leave these matters to the scholars of Islaam.

[NoName55]

Those saudi apostates ahve betrayed the ummah they don't even know correct sharia.They just sit down with their coffee and dates and are as Shaykh Feiz said " comfortable " what traitor.They are nothing like their greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat granfather Muhammad ibn saud he was atrue man whil abdulaziz and Faysal and Fahd are all murtadeen.He would have been ashamed to see them today.

:sl:

Could that be because he had a true Sheikh ul Islam Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab to guide him while current ones guide and appoint thier favorite petro-dollar loving scholars?

[al-muslimah]

Excuse me sister Mu'minah Maybe you should search for knowledge and then come and yell at me. I know what takfir is do you? They have commiitted takfir daeefatul kufr. Read the book
BEWARE OF TAKFIR
By Abu Hamza Almisri
***you will understand more.So lets not debate now.

[al-muslimah]

Scholars have done this and don't accuse me of something true.
Allah says
Wa man lam yahkum bima anzalallah faolaika humul kafirun-- and whoever doesn't rule with the book of Allah are the disbelievers.( surah maidah:44)

[NoName55]

Excuse me sister Mu'minah Maybe you should search for knowledge and then come and yell at me. I know what takfir is do you? They have commiitted takfir daeefatul kufr. Read the book
BEWARE OF TAKFIR
By Abu Hamza Almisri
***you will understand more.So lets not debate now.

Do you mean this dude/fellow/person? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3752517.stm

[InToTheRain]

:sl:

We are deviating from topic :ooh: ...although that has become the standard of world affairs section in LI. Seriously we should name it "Anything goes" section you know what Im saying :ooh: that way people might get much needed drugs to recover from the experience.

Anyways we are entering dangerous grounds :zip:. Calling Takfir on people should be left to the Scholars as Sister Al-Mu'minah said. We shouldn't be going around judging anyone who hasn't openly apastated or been made Takfir on by someone superior to them in knowledge or more then one scholars on their level.

:w:

[NoName55]

:sl:

We are deviating from topic :ooh: ...although that has become the standard of world affairs section in LI. Seriously we should name it "Anything goes" section you know what Im saying :ooh: that way people might get much needed drugs to recover from the experience.

Anyways we are entering dangerous grounds :zip:. Calling Takfir on people should be left to the Scholars as Sister Al-Mu'minah said. We shouldn't be going around judging anyone who hasn't openly apastated or been made Takfir on by someone superior to them in knowledge or more then one scholars on their level.

:w:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...tml#post861738

[al-muslimah]

YES!!!! i mean him .May Allah protect him and he lost both hands in jihad and an eye.May Allah have mercy on him and now they brang him to America to get a " fair trial " please. They want to torture a man who has no hands .some free democracy.Lanahumullah.

[NoName55]

YES!!!! i mean him .May Allah protect him and he lost both hands in jihad and an eye.May Allah have mercy on him and now they brang him to America to get a " fair trial " please. They want to torture a man who has no hands .some free democracy.Lanahumullah.

only if you knew him! he was a disillusioned/disgruntled ex-British Government employee, bent on revenge, just like Br. Saddam was, once, a (failed) former CIA assasin!

[al-muslimah]

Um........... scholars, at least the true scholars have already made takfir on them such as Shaykh Abdullah Faysal and they made allegiance to kuffar hello!! duh that makes them apostates they turned muslims and scholars over to the kuffar governments and whoever does that in Islam , turn a muslim over to the enemy side have apostasized.They took the jews and christians ( US and UK) as awliya( friends) and Allah says " oh you who believe do not take the jews and christians as awliya: friends and allies.
HELLO!! THEY HAVE DONE THAT. A LONG TIME AGO IT IS IN THEIR BLOOD.

[al-muslimah]

No he wasn't maybe you are dillusional since you believe media lies.

[NoName55]

No he wasn't maybe you are dillusional since you believe media lies.

ah well! there is no answering to such "knowledeable" person as yourself, so I have got to admit defeat and bow out.

Um........... scholars, at least the true scholars have already made takfir on them such as Shaykh Abdullah Faysal and they made allegiance to kuffar hello!! duh that makes them apostates they turned muslims and scholars over to the kuffar governments and whoever does that in Islam , turn a muslim over to the enemy side have apostasized.They took the jews and christians ( US and UK) as awliya( friends) and Allah says " oh you who believe do not take the jews and christians as awliya: friends and allies.
HELLO!! THEY HAVE DONE THAT. A LONG TIME AGO IT IS IN THEIR BLOOD.

other day I asked a supermod to give me a freehand to deal with posts and people such as these but was not granted permission, so my hands are truly tied

P.S you have just called hijrah to Medina and Habsha haram as well as any and all treaties signed by RasulAllah with jews and kuffaar too! (either by distorting context or copying from some hate site/book)

:(

(please do not misunderstand as I despise al-Sauds as much as the next man, but there is no need to distort Quraan or use decrees from criminals to prove anything)

[al-muslimah]

By NoName55--"P.S you have just called hijrah to Medina and Habsha haram as well as any and all treaties signed by RasulAllah with jews and kuffaar too! (either by distorting context or copying from some hate site/book)
(please do not misunderstand as I despise al-Sauds as much as the next man, but there is no need to distort Quraan or use decrees from criminals to prove anything)"

What will you use for proof?? "logic and reason"?get a life.

[Umm Yoosuf]

Excuse me sister Mu'minah Maybe you should search for knowledge and then come and yell at me. I know what takfir is do you? They have commiitted takfir daeefatul kufr. Read the book
BEWARE OF TAKFIR
By Abu Hamza Almisri
***you will understand more.So lets not debate now.

Scholars have done this and don't accuse me of something true.
Allah says
Wa man lam yahkum bima anzalallah faolaika humul kafirun-- and whoever doesn't rule with the book of Allah are the disbelievers.( surah maidah:44)

May Allaah increase you in goodness sister, I am not yelling at you nor do I want a debate anymore then you do, but I felt it was my duty as your sister in Islaam to advice you not to get into Takfir we do not have knowledge regarding this issue. Thus we should leave it to the people of Sunnah.Some people let their emotions get in the way and as a result make takfir without due right.

The issue of takir for ruling by other than what Allah has revealed is one wherein there are different issues. The two imam, Bin Baz and al-Albani (raheemahumallah). Views that it is minor kufr not major. The newspaper ash-sharq al-Awsar published and article wherein the Muftee Abdul Azeez bin Baz stated:

“I came across a beneficial answer from the noble shaykh Muhammad Naasirudden al-Albanee, may Allah grant him success, which was prnted in the newspaper ash-sharq al-Awsat and al-Muslimoon wherein the noble shaykh answered a question that was put to him regaring takfeer due to not ruling by what Allah has revealed without explanation.
He made it clear, may Allah grant him success, that it is not permissible for anyone to make takfeer of whoever does not rule by other than what Allah has revealed due to the mere action without knowing if he considered it lawful to do that in his heart. He made use of what is found from ibn Abbas (r), and others from the salaaf of the ummah. There is no doubt that what he mentioned in his answer in the tafseer of the verse

“Whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed, then they are the disbelievers.”

“Whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed then they are the transgressors.”
Al-Maa’idah:47

Is correct, and he, may Allah grant him success, mafe it clear that kufr is of TWO types, major and minor, just as transgression is two, and likewise sin is major and minor. So whoever makes it lawful to rule by other than what Allah has revealed or makes it lawful to make zinaa or to legalise interest or legalises anything else from the prohibited acts, which are agreed upon as being impermissible, has disbelieved due to the major kufr. Whoever does such actions however, without making them lawful, then his kufr and his transgression is minor transgression and likewise is his sin. ”

This is what the Lajna ad-Daa’imah was upon under the presidency of Shaykh Abdul Azeez ibn Baz. It answered the following question:


“Question: Is the one who does not rule by what Allah has revealed a Muslims or a disbeliever who has committed major Kufr?

Answer: Allah said:

Whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed, then they are the disbelievers. Al-Maa’idah: 44

And Allah has said:

Whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed then they are the transgressors. Al-Maa’idah verse 45

And Allah has said:

Whoever does not rule by what Allah has revealed then they are the sinful.
Al-Maa’idah verse 47


HOWEVER, if he makes that lawful and believers that it is permissible, then it is major kufr, major transgression and major sin which expels one from the religion. As for doing it out of bribery or out of another intent whilst believing that it is prohibited then such as person has sinned and is considered a disbeliever who has committed minor kufr and minor sin which Does not expel the person from the religion., as the people of knowledge had elucidated in their explanation of the mentioned verses. ”

Our respected shaykh, Abdul Azeez bin Baz said:

“Whoever rules other than what Allah has revealed does not escape from four issues:

1.The one who says “I rule by this (i.e a man-made laws) because they are better then the Divine Legislation of Islaam (i.e Sharee’ah)” then such a person is a disbleiver, who has committed major kufr.

2.The one who says “I rule by these man-made lawas as they are like the Divine Legislation of Islaam, and ruling by it is permitted, just as ruling by the Divine legislation of Islaam is also permitted” such a person is a disbleiver who has commited major kufr.

3.the one who says “I rule by these laws, but the Divine Legislation of islaam is better, but ruling by other than what Allah has revealed is permitted.” Such a person is disbleiver who comiited major kufr.

4.The one who says “I rue by these man-made laws” yet believes that it is not permissible to rule by other than what Allah has revealed and says “Ruling by the Divine Legislation of Islaam is better and it is not permissible to rule by other than it” yet is weal or does this out of what his rulers have originated before him, such a person is a disbliever who has comiited minor kufr which does not expel him from the religion and the action is considered to be from major sins.”

[NoName55]

...

[al-muslimah]

Sorrry sister.
No that is not what I meant they are ruling with Allah's book but in a wrong way sometimes. My problem is woth the so called saudi royal family they are traitors and are wrong.Many scholars have made takfir on them that newspaper.Ibn Baz is atrue scholar and what he said was right.
I was talking about takfirul ijtihad( kufr based on individual judgment) refering to that ayah in surah maidah:
Ex. one who doesn't rule with the book of Allah occasionally is not a kafir but has commited a major sin as reported in an authentic hadith by Ibn Abbas(ra).However one who doesn't rule with Allah's book all the time is a kafir according to the hadith of Ibn Masud and Ibn Abbas.(raa).That what I meant sister Muminah.Jazakallah.

[al-muslimah]

.......................

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

:sl:

Thread has been open long enough.

:threadclo