"against terrorism"

[Jayda]

hola,

i've read a number of interesting threads recently, i am curious what members of the forum think being 'against terrorism' means... whether they say they personally are against it or islam is against it, what do they mean by this? i am confused because i see threads about hamas and the taliban which demonstrate either denial or support.

que Dios te bendiga

[Keltoi]

I suppose you intended the Muslim members to respond, but I can sum up my opposition to terrorism quite simply.

Any person or group that engages in the intentional murder of civilians as a political strategy are terrorists. This is the IRA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ETA, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc.

This won't be popular, but it disturbs me greatly when I see Muslims call a person a "martyr" for doing nothing more than strapping on a bomb and blowing up some kids at a pizza parlor or shopping mall.

Granted, many of these people are brainwashed kids themselves...but it seems they aren't the only ones being brainwashed.

[Jayda]

hola

i guess i can see this as something anybody could respond to... i used the examples regarding islamic terrorism because those were the ones i had most recently seen. i don't really see a difference between those peoples' divergent opinions and (for example) the bush administration starting a war against terrorism and then sitting idly by while the israeli military leveled highly populated lebanese cities.

when the united states declared war on terrorism i thought that it was a very noble and heroic thing to do. but i thought it would be something different... not an actual war in the sense of an armed conflict, but a focused and principled diplomatic or policy initiative... like the war on poverty. six years later, with torture allegations left and right and almost 1,000,000 dead from two wars i do not think i had the same idea of being 'against terrorism' as the rest of the country.

my opinion is that it is a subjective term... used by people who want to hurt other people and feel justified in doing so. whether it is muslims who support hamas or turn a blind eye to palestinian terrorist groups because of the terrorist attacks of israelis against palestinian civilians or visa versa.

my only other conclusion is that everybody must be a terrorist... there is a point where there is so much blood on everybody's hands that nobody holds a moral imperitive and it is time to find an answer other than weapons.

que Dios te bendiga

[wilberhum]

Jayda,
How about you. It seams you think the US is a terrorist country and the only function of our military is to carry on terrorists activity. If so, you will find many who support your idea's here.

Wilber

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[islamirama]

Jayda,
How about you. It seams you think the US is a terrorist country and the only function of our military is to carry on terrorists activity. If so, you will find many who support your idea's here.

Wilber

seems like you hit it right on the nail! read the CIA history lately? :D

[wilberhum]

seems like you hit it right on the nail! read the CIA history lately? :D

No I haven't. Do you have some Youtube stuff to prove there evil? :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling: :giggling::giggling::giggling:

[Jayda]

Jayda,
How about you. It seams you think the US is a terrorist country and the only function of our military is to carry on terrorists activity. If so, you will find many who support your idea's here.

Wilber

hola

i don't think there are any terrorist countries... there are varying degrees of cruel and selfish governments, and i do not deny that the united states fits into that spectrum. to pretend that we are somehow justified to act as the world police, doing whatever is 'necessary' to defeat vague targets is wrong. i am not going to pretend otherwise just because it is america.

nobody will support my ideas here, or if they do it will be transient (you will cheer when i condemn hamas, they will cheer when i condemn israel and both of you will chastize me for my 'ignorance'). i do not believe in war, it is wrong in all cases and justified by nothing. unless there are some agnostics or quakers here i highly doubt anything i say will be popular.

que Dios te bendiga

[Fishman]

:sl:
I would define being 'against terrorism' as being against armed attacks on civilians with the purpose to persuade the government to your point of view.
:w:

[wilberhum]

Jayda,

i do not believe in war

Is that like not believing in the Tooth fairy, or not believing the world is round?

War is real. It has been happening since there were two tribes and it will not stop till there is one tribe.

War is never a good thing but often a necessary thing.

There are reasons that you don’t speak German.

[Jayda]

Jayda,

Is that like not believing in the Tooth fairy, or not believing the world is round?

War is real. It has been happening since there were two tribes and it will not stop till there is one tribe.

War is never a good thing but often a necessary thing.

There are reasons that you don’t speak German.

i'm fluent

[wilberhum]

i'm fluent

Then I guess you wouldn't mind living under Nazi Germany.
:D

[Jayda]

Then I guess you wouldn't mind living under Nazi Germany.
:D

another win for Godwin's law

[wilberhum]

another win for Godwin's law

No it isn't a comparison. It is avoidance. More that a slight difference. :D

[Jayda]

No it isn't a comparison. It is avoidance. More that a slight difference. :D

i have no idea what you are trying to say there.

[wilberhum]

i have no idea what you are trying to say there.

Good. :thumbs_up

And Good by
Wilber

[Jayda]

Good. :thumbs_up

And Good by
Wilber

adios :)

[islamirama]

[AhlaamBella]

terrorism is causing terror. War is an act of terrorism.

Islam is a peaceful religion. I'm a muslim so naturally I'm against it. Mind you, even if I wasn't a muslim (Inshallah that will never happen) I wouldn't agree with it.

[Keltoi]

It sounds very reasoned and fluffy to simply say "all war is terrorism", but in reality we all know what terrorism is.

[Pygoscelis]

Terrorism is what you call what your enemy does when they hurt civillians. When your side does it it is called collateral damage or Shock and Awe.

These are the semantic games we play.

[Jayda]

si, i agree

[Cognescenti]

Terrorism is what you call what your enemy does when they hurt civillians. When your side does it it is called collateral damage or Shock and Awe.

These are the semantic games we play.

Why don't we do away with the distinction between "man" and "woman" then? After all, they are both made of flesh and blood and have 46 chromosomes (usually).

The English language has too many words anyway.

We could substitute "working poor" for "slave"

Why do we have words for "homicide" and "suicide"? The outcome is just the same.

We could just call Urologists "sex workers" and save another one. Let's just get rid of all the big words that are hard to understand. Come on kids! It will be fun!

[islamirama]

Terrorism is what you call what your enemy does when they hurt civillians. When your side does it it is called collateral damage or Shock and Awe.

These are the semantic games we play.

True, and we all know who comes up with these lame words (collateral damage), and who are the two face bigots.

[noorahmad]

i would just like to ask keltoi, what does he understand by terrorism??

[Liono]

Terrorism is what you call what your enemy does when they hurt civillians. When your side does it it is called collateral damage or Shock and Awe.

These are the semantic games we play.

Oh this is easy. Where is it written that the goal of US military is to target civilians? Where have the US military taken deliberate action against civilians?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

The American government and the israelli government are terrorists.

I am against them, and i defend the freedome fighters (mujahideen) till the end

[Jayda]

The American government and the israelli government are terrorists.

I am against them, and i defend the freedome fighters (mujahideen) till the end

hola,

what makes the american and israeli governments terrorists and mujahideen freedom fighters? and in what way do you defend them?

gracias

[Liono]

The American government and the israelli government are terrorists.

I am against them, and i defend the freedome fighters (mujahideen) till the end

Be careful what you say. When you start declaring who is and isn't your enemy you open yourself up to total war.

[Jayda]

misread

[wilberhum]

The American government and the israelli government are terrorists.

I am against them, and i defend the freedome fighters (mujahideen) till the end

Freedom fighters? :giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling::giggling: :giggling:

Fighting for the freedom to run drugs.

[islamirama]

hola,

what makes the american and israeli governments terrorists and mujahideen freedom fighters? and in what way do you defend them?

gracias

here's one way....

http://www.freewebs.com/aajooba/news.htm

[Jayda]

here's one way....

http://www.freewebs.com/aajooba/news.htm

hola

so does it bother you that they do the same things americans and israelis do? bombing women and children... torturing people... etc. or does the cause justify the means?

gracias

[islamirama]

hola

so does it bother you that they do the same things americans and israelis do? bombing women and children... torturing people... etc. or does the cause justify the means?

gracias

No civilians should be killed from either side attack. It is unfortunate and sad that it happens.

also, like to note, that many market bombs (car bombs) were done by US soldiers (by implanting bombs in cars at checkpoints) as testified by survivors of those vehicles.

---------------

New classified documents implicate U.S. forces in rape and sodomy of Iraqi prisoners.

Iraq's Child Prisoners

MORE IRAQ PRISONER PHOTOS

CHECK THE IRAQI BODY COUNT DATABASE

AFGHANISTAN WAR PRISONER ABUSE

IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS - IRAQ WAR 2

Story of 14yr old Iraqi rape

[wilberhum]

No civilians should be killed from either side attack. It is unfortunate and sad that it happens.

also, like to note, that many market bombs (car bombs) were done by US soldiers (by implanting bombs in cars at checkpoints) as testified by survivors of those vehicles.

---------------

New classified documents implicate U.S. forces in rape and sodomy of Iraqi prisoners.

Iraq's Child Prisoners

MORE IRAQ PRISONER PHOTOS

CHECK THE IRAQI BODY COUNT DATABASE

AFGHANISTAN WAR PRISONER ABUSE

IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS - IRAQ WAR 2

Story of 14yr old Iraqi rape

Did you get that from Youtube?

You are such a hate munger. Why don't you leave the US?

How about this?
BAGHDAD - A suicide bomber detonated his explosives as American soldiers were handing out toys to children northeast of Baghdad on Sunday, killing at least three children and three of the troopers, U.S. and Iraqi authorities said.

[islamirama]

Did you get that from Youtube?

You are such a hate munger. Why don't you leave the US?

You're the "hate munger" who can't seem to open his eyes to the war crimes his president, administration and dumb HS graduate soldier boys are committing.

And why don't you leave the US? Muslims found it first and lived peacefully with native americans before columbus the genocidal war criminal lost its way here, calling the natives as "indians" (moron thought he landed in india)

[Cognescenti]

....And why don't you leave the US? Muslims found it first and lived peacefully with native americans before columbus the genocidal war criminal lost its way here, calling the natives as "indians" (moron thought he landed in india)

Wait a minute! Eric the Red was Muslim? :hmm:

I have learned so much on this forum. Thank you all.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinland

[wilberhum]

You're the "hate munger" who can't seem to open his eyes to the war crimes his president, administration and dumb HS graduate soldier boys are committing.
Your President too. You are as responsible as I am.

And why don't you leave the US? Muslims found it first
OMY you are serious arn't you. Did you ever hear of the Vikings?
and lived peacefully with native americans
What? All 12 of the Muslims lived peacefully?
before columbus the genocidal war criminal lost its way here,
You need to go talk to Isabella about that. But I think that is why Columbus was bared from setting foot back on the islands.calling the natives as "indians" (moron thought he landed in india)
Well he was Italian. What do you expect?

Do you have any Youtube documentation on those 12 Muslims?

[islamirama]

Native Americans are not the topic of this thread. For that you can visit here...

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...tml#post861902

[wilberhum]

Native Americans are not the topic of this thread. For that you can visit here...

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...tml#post861902

A link to a post with out a link. Surly you have something from Youtube. :?

[Jayda]

No civilians should be killed from either side attack. It is unfortunate and sad that it happens.

also, like to note, that many market bombs (car bombs) were done by US soldiers (by implanting bombs in cars at checkpoints) as testified by survivors of those vehicles.

---------------

New classified documents implicate U.S. forces in rape and sodomy of Iraqi prisoners.

Iraq's Child Prisoners

MORE IRAQ PRISONER PHOTOS

CHECK THE IRAQI BODY COUNT DATABASE

AFGHANISTAN WAR PRISONER ABUSE

IRAQI CIVILIAN DEATHS - IRAQ WAR 2

Story of 14yr old Iraqi rape

so what makes it different in your mind between when the americans kill, injure, bomb and kidnap children and when the americans do it? you are making a conscious effort to allow it in one instance and condemn it in another... it's morally inconsistent.

[Cognescenti]

Native Americans are not the topic of this thread. For that you can visit here...

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...tml#post861902

No they weren't, but please do tell us about the Muslim explorers who found the New World. I am sure we will all be fascinated to hear such a tale.

[~Taalibah~]

I can say why i think the american/israelli government are terrorists. The kill, kill, kill innocent civilians, they torture the Muslims, they frame the Muslims, they speak lies upon lies, they look for any excuse to start bombing or shooting or start anotherwar. They try to use the media to bring the world on their side, to blind the world from the facts. There are Muslims who do this as well, and they too terrorists. Killing civilians is wrong. Islam does not teach us this. Mujaahideen who fight for their country, their beliefs, their family etc are true Mujaahideen. Where are they today? I think there are at least some left in Afghanistaan and chechnia, i'm not sure.
I hate bush and israel.

BAGHDAD - A suicide bomber detonated his explosives as American soldiers were handing out toys to children northeast of Baghdad on Sunday, killing at least three children and three of the troopers, U.S. and Iraqi authorities said

:raging:Baah! they just do that for cover, an act.:raging:

[wilberhum]

I can say why i think the american/israelli government are terrorists. The kill, kill, kill innocent civilians, they torture the Muslims, they frame the Muslims, they speak lies upon lies, they look for any excuse to start bombing or shooting or start anotherwar. They try to use the media to bring the world on their side, to blind the world from the facts. There are Muslims who do this as well, and they too terrorists. Killing civilians is wrong. Islam does not teach us this. Mujaahideen who fight for their country, their beliefs, their family etc are true Mujaahideen. Where are they today? I think there are at least some left in Afghanistaan and chechnia, i'm not sure.
I hate bush and israel.

:raging:Baah! they just do that for cover, an act.:raging:

Maybe you are not sure, but I am.
They are there, but they are the minority.

[~Taalibah~]

Maybe you are not sure, but I am.
They are there, but they are the minority.

I wasnt sure if Chechnia and Afghanistaan were the only places with true Mujaahideen. I know for a fact that there are still true Mujaahideen out there and will be till the end.

[Cognescenti]

....The kill, kill, kill innocent civilians, they torture the Muslims, they frame the Muslims, they speak lies upon lies, they look for any excuse to start bombing or shooting or start anotherwar. They try to use the media to bring the world on their side, to blind the world from the facts........... :

Wow. Somebody needs some serious couch time (in a psychoanalytic sense, I mean). I would suggest you stop looking to the West to explain every problem you encounter.

The US hasn't been in a serious shooting war since GWI and that lasted only a short time...and before that, 1973. That hardly seems like a state of continuous warfare, does it?

OBL formally declared war on the US in 1999 I think it was. We ignored him. That didn't work out so well.

[wilberhum]

I wasnt sure if Chechnia and Afghanistaan were the only places with true Mujaahideen. I know for a fact that there are still true Mujaahideen out there and will be till the end.

Of course there are. As I said.

They are there, but they are the minority.

Surely you don't think all Muslim fighters are true Mujaahideen?

At least when I think of "true Mujaahideen", I don't think of terrorists who shoot kids in the back as they run out of a school. I don't think of the fine folks that get people to blow themselves up in a market are "true Mujaahideen" either.

[Keltoi]

i would just like to ask keltoi, what does he understand by terrorism??

As I stated before, terrorism is the intentional murder of non-combatants as part of a military or political strategy. When a man or woman straps on a bomb and walks into a pizza parlor or shopping mall and blows up people as an act of "resistance", that is terrorism.

When a fighter pilot drops a bomb on a target and unintentionally kills civilians, that is not terrorism. Does that mean it is okay? Of course not. From personal experience with fighter pilots who have gone through this, it is the last thing in the world you want to hear when you get back to base. Those civilians are still dead, and no amount of justification can fix that. This is where intent becomes the primary issue. There is no question what the intention of the 9-11 hijackers were, or any question about the suicide bombers who litter the streets with dead women and children.

[Muezzin]

I'm against terrorism. I define terrorism as the intentional endangerment or killing of civilians in the furtherance of political aims.

This includes the more 'traditional' understanding of terrorists. Your Al-Qaedas and your IRAs. This also includes certain state actions. It's just that countries who commit such acts are allowed to use hindsight. Private individuals, or groups of them, aren't. This sucks either way. The civilians killed by both, and their families, don't really give a toss in whose name the destruction was wrought - the dead have lost their lives, and the living have lost the dead.

Down with terrorism and oppression! Up with... cake!

[Whatsthepoint]

There's a great difference between ETA or IRA and Al Quaida.
The first two have been killing political figures whereas bin Laden and his followers have been slaughtering innocent civilians.

[wilberhum]

There's a great difference between ETA or IRA and Al Quaida.
The first two have been killing political figures whereas bin Laden and his followers have been slaughtering innocent civilians.

ETA is a local terrorist group who have kill few people. They just want a separate country.

IRA is/was a terrorist group that operated locally and in England. There soul mission was an Ireland free of British rule.

Al Quaida will kill anyone in any place in the world. There objective is to kill anyone who does not support there ideals.

[Whatsthepoint]

ETA is a local terrorist group who have kill few people. They just want a separate country.

IRA is/was a terrorist group that operated locally and in England. There soul mission was an Ireland free of British rule.

Al Quaida will kill anyone in any place in the world. There objective is to kill anyone who does not support there ideals.

Yeah, that too..

[Chechnya]

There's a great difference between ETA or IRA and Al Quaida.
The first two have been killing political figures whereas bin Laden and his followers have been slaughtering innocent civilians.

You dont know much about the IRA, do you?

Do some research on them and find out what they have actually done

[Whatsthepoint]

You dont know much about the IRA, do you?

Do some research on them and find out what they have actually done

True, IRA did kill civilians, however they were not their main targets. And guess what - they apologized for every civilian casualty they caused!
They certainly never took schoolchildren for hostages..

[Chechnya]

True, IRA did kill civilians, however they were not their main targets. And guess what - they apologized for every civilian casualty they caused!

well im sure leaving car bombs in crowded civlian areas was just a mistake then - since civlians werent their main targets :muddlehea

They certainly never took schoolchildren for hostages

nor have they ever defeated an ex-superpower, so the list of what the IRA havent done would be quite long :rolleyes:

oh and they apologised for the school seige so its ok!

[Whatsthepoint]

well im sure leaving car bombs in crowded civlian areas was just a mistake then - since civlians werent their main targets :muddlehea

Percentually speaking they weren't.
To be honest I didn't know IRA killed so many civilians.

nor have they ever defeated an ex-superpower, so the list of what the IRA havent done would be quite long :rolleyes:

oh and they apologised for the school seige so its ok!

You're still a aprt of Russsia and a part of Ireland is still british...so you're pretty much on the same level.
Well, in my opinion your cause is much more legitimate than the of IRA. It's just that your means are totally unacceptable.

Did they?

[al-muslimah]

" I suppose you intended the Muslim members to respond, but I can sum up my opposition to terrorism quite simply.

Any person or group that engages in the intentional murder of civilians as a political strategy are terrorists. This is the IRA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ETA, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. "

wrong explanation what would you know about terrorism your president is the biggest terrorist in the world second to the zoinist jews ion palestine.
I support the mujahideen not terrorists like Bush Mujahideen like Hamas and At-Taliban.Big difference. Maybe you guys should learn terrorism from the right siurces then come back and debate.there is no point.

[Keltoi]

" I suppose you intended the Muslim members to respond, but I can sum up my opposition to terrorism quite simply.

Any person or group that engages in the intentional murder of civilians as a political strategy are terrorists. This is the IRA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ETA, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. "

wrong explanation what would you know about terrorism your president is the biggest terrorist in the world second to the zoinist jews ion palestine.
I support the mujahideen not terrorists like Bush Mujahideen like Hamas and At-Taliban.Big difference. Maybe you guys should learn terrorism from the right siurces then come back and debate.there is no point.

Sorry, but the whole "killing civilians is fine as long as those who kill them are Muslim" isn't going to fly with me. You can call Bush a terrorist if you want, doesn't bother me. However, what does bother me is hypocrisy. If you believe Bush and the "zionist Jews" are terrorists, then hold your "mujahideen" to the same standard.

[al-muslimah]

"Sorry, but the whole "killing civilians is fine as long as those who kill them are Muslim" isn't going to fly with me. You can call Bush a terrorist if you want, doesn't bother me. However, what does bother me is hypocrisy. If you believe Bush and the "zionist Jews" are terrorists, then hold your "mujahideen" to the same standard."--keltoi


Well its not my fault people these days believe the media it just shows how weak-minded you are.Mujahideen never kill civilians unless an accident like it was dark and they couldn't see who they are fighting.Media infected people these days.sigh.

[Keltoi]

"Sorry, but the whole "killing civilians is fine as long as those who kill them are Muslim" isn't going to fly with me. You can call Bush a terrorist if you want, doesn't bother me. However, what does bother me is hypocrisy. If you believe Bush and the "zionist Jews" are terrorists, then hold your "mujahideen" to the same standard."--keltoi


Well its not my fault people these days believe the media it just shows how weak-minded you are.Mujahideen never kill civilians unless an accident like it was dark and they couldn't see who they are fighting.Media infected people these days.sigh.

Okay...I suppose ignorance really is bliss. No offense, but you really need to take the blinders off.

[al-muslimah]

By keltoi--"Okay...I suppose ignorance really is bliss. No offense, but you really need to take the blinders off."

No offense but you need a slap to wake you up!!!!!!!!!!!! May I?
Wqal 'aqibatu lil mutaqeen.

[Cognescenti]

" I suppose you intended the Muslim members to respond, but I can sum up my opposition to terrorism quite simply.

Any person or group that engages in the intentional murder of civilians as a political strategy are terrorists. This is the IRA, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, ETA, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, etc. "

wrong explanation what would you know about terrorism your president is the biggest terrorist in the world second to the zoinist jews ion palestine.
I support the mujahideen not terrorists like Bush Mujahideen like Hamas and At-Taliban.Big difference. Maybe you guys should learn terrorism from the right siurces then come back and debate.there is no point.

Yes. There you have it. The ultimate incisive comment on terrorism. There can be no rejoinder. One must simply, read, ponder and learn. Here is the fountainhead of knowledge on terrorism. Gather the young ones around and bid them be still. They must show proper respect.

[al-muslimah]

Proper respect to who?????

[Muezzin]

Enough.

[wilberhum]

well im sure leaving car bombs in crowded civlian areas was just a mistake then - since civlians werent their main targets :muddlehea



nor have they ever defeated an ex-superpower, so the list of what the IRA havent done would be quite long :rolleyes:

oh and they apologised for the school seige so its ok!

I hope some day the USA will apologise for Iraq. Then it will be OK. :skeleton:

[Jayda]

hola,

i've read a number of interesting threads recently, i am curious what members of the forum think being 'against terrorism' means... whether they say they personally are against it or islam is against it, what do they mean by this? i am confused because i see threads about hamas and the taliban which demonstrate either denial or support.

que Dios te bendiga

hola

in light of some of the recent comments that groups like hamas or the taliban either 1. do not kill civilians except by accident or 2. do not kill them at all, based on the proposition the media always lies i am drawn back to my original question... which included denial. without going too much in depth, let's just proceed that the idea the media would lie to such an extent all muslim terrorist groups everywhere are 'set up' is patently absurd.

that leads be to the question... what good is a person if they support terrorism but simply do not want the label of a supporter? how are they helping the problem?

que Dios te bendiga

[islamirama]

I hope some day the USA will apologise for Iraq. Then it will be OK. :skeleton:

That's not enough. Over a million are displaced and forced into refuge in other nations, over 50,000 women have been forced to prostitution/adult clubs to earn a living.

US must apologize and pay iraq billions of dollars every year in damages, like germany does for jews. Over a million killed is a holocaust.

It's soldiers and leaders from president to lowest administration member must be turned over for war crimes.

that's just a start...

[Jayda]

hola,

i do not know what the united states should or could do to make up for what has happened in iraq. the death toll is catastrophic... by some estimates over 1,000,000 people as a result of the chaos. saddam hussein was a very bad man who needed to stop what he was doing, but this is much worse.

i think the most important thing is to do something to prevent this from ever happening again in the future.

que Dios te bendiga

[islamirama]

hola,

i do not know what the united states should or could do to make up for what has happened in iraq. the death toll is catastrophic... by some estimates over 1,000,000 people as a result of the chaos. saddam hussein was a very bad man who needed to stop what he was doing, but this is much worse.

i think the most important thing is to do something to prevent this from ever happening again in the future.

que Dios te bendiga

Saddam supposedly killed 250,000 in 20yrs, and Bush killed over a million in 5years. Who do you think is the worst dictator and murderer? How come we don't see anyone waging war on US to remove this dictator for same reasons he wanted to remove saddam? This isn't a war on terrorism, its war OF terrorism.

It's all for oil, nothing more and nothing less. Saddam couldn't be handled and controlled like other arab leaders so he had to go down.

[Jayda]

Saddam supposedly killed 250,000 in 20yrs, and Bush killed over a million in 5years. Who do you think is the worst dictator and murderer? How come we don't see anyone waging war on US to remove this dictator for same reasons he wanted to remove saddam? This isn't a war on terrorism, its war OF terrorism.

It's all for oil, nothing more and nothing less. Saddam couldn't be handled and controlled like other arab leaders so he had to go down.

hola

i think when you talk about so many people dying it does not matter how many zeros there are... i see both examples as perpetuating evil. i do not at all disagree with you that the war against terrorism is terrorism and i am inclined to agree about oil, although i do not know very much about it nor do i care about the oil issue.

as i wrote somewhere else, when the president said that he was initiating a war against terrorism i thought it was a very noble idea. i thought, it would be like the war on poverty, not a military conflict but rather a change in perceptions, policies and support for peaceful initiatives across the globe and to increase the standard of living for people. instead this meant indiscriminantly bombing people in countries with loose ties to the september 11th attacks.

i do not see how violence justifies itself...

que Dios te bendiga

[Cognescenti]

Why stop at 1,000,000? If you are going to make a number, go long. Just put an extra zero in it.

[Jayda]

Why stop at 1,000,000? If you are going to make a number, go long. Just put an extra zero in it.

the number is over 1,000,000. it was an ORB survey. i do not revel in this and i am not fabricating anything.

[Cognescenti]

the number is over 1,000,000. it was an ORB survey. i do not revel in this and i am not fabricating anything.

Yeah right. A non-randomized phone poll of Iraqis "publsihed" by an organization with a clear agenda??? :D:D

4 1/2 years * 365 d =(ca) 1642 days

1,000,000/1642 = 610 per day for every day of the war
I challenge you to find one single day for the entire war when media reports even approximate that figure.


Here is the figure estimate by Iraq Body Count (an antiwar site) 77,300 - 84,200 That seems a rather large discrepancy to me. Are your foundations cracking yet?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

check out their methodology

[Jayda]

ORB is a professional polling company... like gallup... they don't have an agenda and they are professionals in what they do. i don't think i would trust www.iraqbodycount.org if i were you, they clearly aren't professionals and as you say they have an agenda. at columbia we had a very simple rule about trusting the internet 'if you wouldn't use that source in an essay, don't use it at all.'

[Cognescenti]

ORB is a professional polling company... like gallup... they don't have an agenda and they are professionals in what they do. i don't think i would trust www.iraqbodycount.org if i were you, they clearly aren't professionals and as you say they have an agenda. at columbia we had a very simple rule about trusting the internet 'if you wouldn't use that source in an essay, don't use it at all.'

Here is the preamble to the study from their own site:

"in the week in which General Patraeus reports back to US Congress on the impact the recent ‘surge’ is having in Iraq, a new poll reveals that more than 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have been murdered since the invasion took place in 2003."

You tell me if there is a political agenda. Here is part of the small print from their "study" ....for security reasons Karbala and Al Anbar were not included. Irbil was excluded as the authorities refused our field team a permit.
:statisfie

I ask you again...cite one day of media reports where the figure is higher than the average losses for every single day that necessarily flows from your figure.

Iraq Body Count does have an agenda....it is an atiwar agenda. They attempt to estimate non-combatant losses from media reports. At some point you have to ask yourself why the ORB "study" is 1,300% higher than media reports. BTW this includes media reports from unsympathetic sources in Iraq.

If you had a business (I know this is a stretch, but stay with me) and one of your employees turned in a time card with 520 hrs (40 x 1,300%) in a single week would you stop and scratch your head or just pay him?

[wilberhum]

That's not enough. Over a million are displaced and forced into refuge in other nations, over 50,000 women have been forced to prostitution/adult clubs to earn a living.

US must apologize and pay iraq billions of dollars every year in damages, like germany does for jews. Over a million killed is a holocaust.

It's soldiers and leaders from president to lowest administration member must be turned over for war crimes.

that's just a start...

Of course an apology doesn't make it ok.
Only a really stupid person wound. :hiding:
Like the person that thought an apology makes killing children OK.

But then someone like you comes along with no understanding of what is being said.
The only thing you saw was an opportunity to mock someone because they don't agree with your bias.

And as usual, the hatred of your country, has caused you to make a fool of your self.

[Jayda]

Here is the preamble to the study from their own site:

"in the week in which General Patraeus reports back to US Congress on the impact the recent ‘surge’ is having in Iraq, a new poll reveals that more than 1,000,000 Iraqi citizens have been murdered since the invasion took place in 2003."

where are you getting an agenda out of this?

[islamirama]

Yeah right. A non-randomized phone poll of Iraqis "publsihed" by an organization with a clear agenda??? :D:D

4 1/2 years * 365 d =(ca) 1642 days

1,000,000/1642 = 610 per day for every day of the war
I challenge you to find one single day for the entire war when media reports even approximate that figure.


Here is the figure estimate by Iraq Body Count (an antiwar site) 77,300 - 84,200 That seems a rather large discrepancy to me. Are your foundations cracking yet?

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

check out their methodology

Just last year it was confirmed and on all US media news that 665,000 iraqi civilians are died as a direct result of the troops. And you come up with your magic numbers like that? Don't give us your lies, you won't fool anyone here.

[wilberhum]

Just last year it was confirmed and on all US media news that 665,000 iraqi civilians are died as a direct result of the troops. And you come up with your magic numbers like that? Don't give us your lies, you won't fool anyone here.

But the US news is Kefir News and can't be trusted.

Do you have a Reliable source? Like Youtube. ;D;D;D;D;D;D;D

[noorahmad]

According to the ORB poll, a survey of 1,461 adults suggested that the total number slain during more than four years of war was more than 1.2 million.
http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...ck=1&cset=true

[Hashim_507]

hola,

i've read a number of interesting threads recently, i am curious what members of the forum think being 'against terrorism' means... whether they say they personally are against it or islam is against it, what do they mean by this? i am confused because i see threads about hamas and the taliban which demonstrate either denial or support.

que Dios te bendiga

Islam is against terrorism. They are others commiting terrorism such as zionist state and its allies. The zionist media is example of idiotcracy propaganda; which means brainwashing with fairy tale lies.

[Chechnya]

I wasnt sure if Chechnia and Afghanistaan were the only places with true Mujaahideen.

there are many true mujahideen around the world and in chcehnya they are the best, sister :D

I hope some day the USA will apologise for Iraq. Then it will be OK.

no doubt

[noorahmad]

i do not consider the hamas as a terrorist group, they have sinned a lot by killing innocents and other fellow muslims, but they are doing a defensive jihad, they are trying to protect/ regain the 3rd holiest place of Islam, and to defend their land against zion.
(im not against judaism, im only against zionism)

[wilberhum]

Islam is against terrorism. They are others commiting terrorism such as zionist state and its allies. The zionist media is example of idiotcracy propaganda; which means brainwashing with fairy tale lies.

Islam may be against terrorism but millions of Muslims support it.

[wilberhum]

no doubt

You doubt that the US will apologise or you doubt that an apology will make it OK. :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:

[Chechnya]

You doubt that the US will apologise or you doubt that an apology will make it OK. :hiding: :hiding: :hiding:

forget it

it was just a sarcastic remark to the guys post that implied its ok to kill people as long as you apologise

[wilberhum]

i do not consider the hamas as a terrorist group, they have sinned a lot by killing innocents and other fellow muslims, but they are doing a defensive jihad, they are trying to protect/ regain the 3rd holiest place of Islam, and to defend their land against zion.
(im not against judaism, im only against zionism)

What does a group need to do for you to concider them terrorists? :hiding::hiding:

How many innocents do they need to kill?

How many of your fellow Muslims do they have to kill?

How is this defense?

[noorahmad]

i agree that they may have killed lot of innocents, but someone said that dropping a bomb on innocent isnt an act of terrorism, and i do personally believe that the hamas didnt kill the palestinian civilians purposely.
and jerusalem and all the lands occupied by the zioninst state belong to the palestinian ppl, it has been theis for centuries, the zionist has no right to be there, they are defending their lands from the zionist occupants

[Hashim_507]

Islam may be against terrorism but millions of Muslims support it.

Well those millians of muslims which you claim does not represent Islam at all. Dont believe zionist idiotcracy media propaganda.

[wilberhum]

i agree that they may have killed lot of innocents, but someone said that dropping a bomb on innocent isnt an act of terrorism, and i do personally believe that the hamas didnt kill the palestinian civilians purposely.
and jerusalem and all the lands occupied by the zioninst state belong to the palestinian ppl, it has been theis for centuries, the zionist has no right to be there, they are defending their lands from the zionist occupants

So what do they have to do for you to think they are terrorists?

Become Christian?

[wilberhum]

Well those millians of muslims which you claim does not represent Islam at all. Dont believe zionist idiotcracy media propaganda.

Propaganda? Read any national news source.

Oh I forgot, Jews control all the news. Da

[Cognescenti]

(im not against judaism, im only against zionism)

Oh...OK. :okay: I don't mind Jews...just keep them away from me.

[Hashim_507]

Propaganda? Read any national news source.

Oh I forgot, Jews control all the news. Da

Your being anti-sametic or sarcastic about zionist control.

[wilberhum]

Your being anti-sametic or sarcastic about zionist control.

Sarcastic. Why do you think the "Da"?

Never anti-sametic.

Jews like all other groups, including Muslims, are a mix of all atributes.

[Hashim_507]

Sarcastic. Why do you think the "Da"?

Never anti-sametic.

Jews like all other groups, including Muslims, are a mix of all atributes.

Investigate all the media moguls profiles such as rupert mordoch and others. They all have something in common; you will never find zionist news that explains the truth about 9-11 event. They all one-sided stories that keep repeating or sharing the same idealogy.

[wilberhum]

Investigate all the media moguls profiles such as rupert mordoch and others. They all have something in common; you will never find zionist news that explains the truth about 9-11 event. They all one-sided stories that keep repeating or sharing the same idealogy.

Some how I just knew it anti-sametic and a Jew hater to the core.

Conspiracy Theories are created to keep bigots busy.

Bet you are really stressed for time. :hiding::hiding:

[noorahmad]

talking about who did the attack of 9/11 is going off topic. Whoever did it, its an act of terrorism

[Hashim_507]

Some how I just knew it anti-sametic and a Jew hater to the core.

Conspiracy Theories are created to keep bigots busy.

Bet you are really stressed for time. :hiding::hiding:

I am not living the life of idiotcracy; your accusing me falsely with no evidence. Zionist is controlling the media and yeah repurt mordoch is great example. Your been brainwash by the zionist media, also your believing everything they said. I gave you simple answer Islam is against terrorism with hundren percent evidance. I didnt forget about Israel by the way; as long as israel is around they will be always wars and conflicts. Dont expect zionist orginazation telling you the truth.

[wilberhum]

What can I say but what I said?

Conspiracy Theories are created to keep bigots busy.

I suspose those evil Jews that control all the the media control Al Jazeera too. Da

[Hashim_507]

What can I say but what I said?

I suspose those evil Jews that control all the the media control Al Jazeera too. Da

Muslim control medias are being discriminated. You can disagreed with me as much you wish. The truth is middle east peace is no way will happen as long israel exist. Your not living in realty; you never realise all those wars in the middle east was design to be that way. As for this topic; 9-11 was inside job and all those terror attacks are all zionist opiration. Your seeing the media lies which is common in every major zionist control.

[Amadeus85]

I didnt forget about Israel by the way; as long as israel is around they will be always wars and conflicts. Dont expect zionist orginazation telling you the truth.

But you can't explain me only with zionism the civil war in Algeria, Darfur massacre,Shia's vs Sunni in Pakistan and Afghanistan and Yemen, the terror attacks in Egypt or in Kenia and Tanzania.
Or you can ?

[Whatsthepoint]

forget it

it was just a sarcastic remark to the guys post that implied its ok to kill people as long as you apologise

I didn't say that. All I said is that the IRA apologized and muslim terrorist (usually) don't.

[~Taalibah~]

I hope some day the USA will apologise for Iraq. Then it will be OK. :skeleton:

How can it be ok? Can a apology change the lives of all the poor ppl? Can it bring back the loved ones? Can it change the miserable wreck it caused?

Wow. Somebody needs some serious couch time (in a psychoanalytic sense, I mean). I would suggest you stop looking to the West to explain every problem you encounter.

What your point man? I'm not looking at the west media at all unlike some others. I get my info from authentic Islamic papers and sites.

[wilberhum]

Muslim control medias are being discriminated.
Please explain what you mean.
You can disagreed with me as much you wish.
Don't know, your statement has no clearity.The truth is middle east peace is no way will happen as long israel exist.
Of course there will never be peace as long as Palestine exists.
Your not living in realty; you never realise all those wars in the middle east was design to be that way.
And who "designed" these wars and why do they exist where ever there is a large Muslim population.
As for this topic; 9-11 was inside job and all those terror attacks are all zionist opiration.
Further proof that I am right when I say "Humans are capable of believing anything".
Your seeing the media lies which is common in every major zionist control.
And you say I'm not living in reality. Wow

Gee every international news source in the world disagrees with you. :-\

Where did they go wrong. Da.

[wilberhum]

How can it be ok? Can a apology change the lives of all the poor ppl? Can it bring back the loved ones? Can it change the miserable wreck it caused?

Man, I can't beleve how many here have no sence of Sarcasm.

Only the village idot would believe that and I live in a big city. :-\

[Isambard]

Muslim control medias are being discriminated. You can disagreed with me as much you wish. The truth is middle east peace is no way will happen as long israel exist. Your not living in realty; you never realise all those wars in the middle east was design to be that way. As for this topic; 9-11 was inside job and all those terror attacks are all zionist opiration. Your seeing the media lies which is common in every major zionist control.

You're right, its all the fault of them pesky Jews. Actually, did you know a group of jews went back in time and sunk the titatic as well? The zionist media is trying to hide this evidence from you! But it must be revealed! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

[Isambard]

I think people need to seperate between State-terrorism, and regular terrorism.

There are two very different motives both each. One to create stability (w/e that means) and the other political instability.

Terrorism itself is not unique to islam, nor are muslims the only ones to glorify terrorism. Sons of liberty are heralded as heros, El Che, Mr. Brown, Suffrugettes(sp?) all qualify as terrorists int hat they tried to create instability through deliberate violence/damage to people or property.

Now if these groups/ppl are better or worse than their Islamist counterparts, Ill leave that normative decision to you

[~Taalibah~]

Man, I can't beleve how many here have no sence of Sarcasm.

Only the village idot would believe that and I live in a big city. :-\

Had a feeling it was sarcasm but felt like saying it anyway.:zip:

[Whatsthepoint]

Islam may be against terrorism but millions of Muslims support it.

I don't blame them. Plenty of muslims are being oppressed and discriminated, plenty live in poverty and the media tells them the US, Israel or the decadent west in general are to blame (I'm not saying they aren't...)
And terrorists are portrayed as those who stand up against injustice.
Millions of Germans supported the nazis. Millions of Italians supported Mussolini. Millions of Russians supported Stalin. It's taking advantage of the socio-economic circumstances and propaganda.

[wilberhum]

I don't blame them. Plenty of muslims are being oppressed and discriminated, plenty live in poverty and the media tells them the US, Israel or the decadent west in general are to blame (I'm not saying they aren't...)
And terrorists are portrayed as those who stand up against injustice.
Millions of Germans supported the nazis. Millions of Italians supported Mussolini. Millions of Russians supported Stalin. It's taking advantage of the socio-economic circumstances and propaganda.

You don't blame them. That nice of you. Real sweet.

But I do.

How one responds to a situation is one's own responsibility.

But to be sure the millions of Muslims that support terrorism are not alone.

Many people in many groups support terrorism.

[Whatsthepoint]

How one responds to a situation is one's own responsibility.

Yeah, but people are very easy to manipulate with. Conscience can be easily supressed or changed.

[snakelegs]

ameicans are just as easy to manipulate as anybody else.

[Whatsthepoint]

ameicans are just as easy to manipulate as anybody else.

Who said they aren't?
Poor/oppressed/discriminated people are supposed to be the easiest to manipulate though.

[snakelegs]

i know they're "supposed to be" - but i'm not sure if that's true.

[wilberhum]

Yeah, but people are very easy to manipulate with. Conscience can be easily supressed or changed.

So now no one is responsible for there actions because "people are very easy to manipulate with"?

Well lets just empty all the prisions and forgive all that have been manipulated with.

[Cognescenti]

talking about who did the attack of 9/11 is going off topic. Whoever did it, its an act of terrorism

:giggling::giggling:

[Whatsthepoint]

i know they're "supposed to be" - but i'm not sure if that's true.

Dictators and extremists usually get votes from poor, uneducated and consequentially frustreted people, who are more likely buy the empty promises of better living and similar stuff..

[Whatsthepoint]

So now no one is responsible for there actions because "people are very easy to manipulate with"?

Well lets just empty all the prisions and forgive all that have been manipulated with. http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/boese/k020.gif

In my opinion most or at least a lot of criminals are not objectevly responsible for their actions. I don't think right and wrong sense is innate or anything like that.. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be prosecuted. They should, however in order to rehabilitate.

Hmmm.:-\:smile:

[snakelegs]

Dictators and extremists usually get votes from poor, uneducated and consequentially frustreted people, who are more likely buy the empty promises of better living and similar stuff..

dictators don't need votes! ;D
from what i've observed, i think americans are just as easy to manipulate as any other group, though in theory, poverty and ignorance should make it easier.

[Whatsthepoint]

dictators don't need votes! ;D
from what i've observed, i think americans are just as easy to manipulate as any other group, though in theory, poverty and ignorance should make it easier.

Usually they need votes in order to get elected and change the law about votes..
Americans are not a homogeneous group. You've got rich peple who play golf and sip the latest in brandies and you've got an unemployed hispanic mother of three or even seven!
But I agree - it depends on the person. There are different factors that determine if a person is easy to manipulate with. Poverty, education, relations, mentality, severe emotional traumas....these factors interact. Some have greter influence than the others. In my opinion poverty is one of the most influential factors.

[Keltoi]

Usually they need votes in order to get elected and change the law about votes..
Americans are not a homogeneous group. You've got rich peple who play golf and sip the latest in brandies and you've got an unemployed hispanic mother of three or even seven!
But I agree - it depends on the person. There are different factors that determine if a person is easy to manipulate with. Poverty, education, relations, mentality, severe emotional traumas....these factors interact. Some have greter influence than the others. In my opinion poverty is one of the most influential factors.

I agree, serious poverty is usually the catalyst for major and dramatic political change. Dictators are quick to take advantage of this. Take the hyperinflation disaster in Germany after WWI, this paved the way for the Nazi regime.

[wilberhum]

I agree, serious poverty is usually the catalyst for major and dramatic political change. Dictators are quick to take advantage of this. Take the hyperinflation disaster in Germany after WWI, this paved the way for the Nazi regime.

lets not forget the easy sell of superority.

There are many millions ready to buy.

It is also nice to have someone to blame all your problems on.
(I have never seen this used on this forum though)

[Cognescenti]

......from what i've observed, i think americans are just as easy to manipulate as any other group, though in theory, poverty and ignorance should make it easier.

We are not....oh..wait....you wanted me to say that didn't you? DOH!

[snakelegs]

We are not....oh..wait....you wanted me to say that didn't you? DOH!

why would i care? i was just stating my opinion. :uuh:

[Cognescenti]

why would i care? i was just stating my opinion. :uuh:

It's a joke guy. Ah, never mind.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Thread locked.

Please stop acting like children in future threads.