Antiwar high school students win victory: Supporters say ‘Expel military recruiters,

[islamirama]

Antiwar high school students win victory: Supporters say ‘Expel military recruiters, not students’

Author: Pepe Lozano
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BERWYN, Ill. — All we wanted to do was send a message of peace and “bring an end to the conflict in Iraq,” student Matt Heffernan told reporters in front of Morton West High School here Nov. 6.

Heffernan is a junior at Morton West, just outside Chicago in the working-class suburb of Berwyn. About 20 parents and their children joined Heffernan in a press conference outside the school.

Heffernan, along with other classmates, led a Nov. 1 lunch period sit-in of about 70 students to protest the Iraq war. School officials suspended many of the protesters and threatened them with expulsions.

After heated outrage and pressure from parents, students, local peace groups, Rainbow/PUSH and free speech advocates from the American Civil Liberties Union and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund, District 201 Supt. Ben Nowakowski issued a statement Nov. 13 saying that the 38 students suspended and those who faced expulsion will be cleared and could return to class.

Parents are now planning to talk with the school board to make sure the penalties don’t appear on the students’ records.

Nowakowski and the local school board originally charged the students with “gross disobedience and mob activity,” saying they disrupted the educational process and potentially caused harm to other students during the peaceful protest.

The students told reporters that school officials said if they moved the protest to another location and out of the cafeteria, they would face only Saturday detention. The students complied, and when they moved, school officials cordoned off the protesters with yellow “caution” tape and barricaded the area with tables so others couldn’t join them. Many of the students left after being intimidated.

Heffernan said he and the 70 other students, mostly white and Latino, just wanted to raise awareness about the effects of the war. “People say it doesn’t affect them, but we say it does,” he said.

“I’d like to go back to school,” Heffernan told the World before the expulsion threat was called off. “I didn’t do this to be disobedient, I just wanted to promote peace and to say ‘bring the troops home.’ That’s why I had to do this.”

Barbara Maniotis, a junior, also spoke to reporters, saying, “We have been in this war for five years now. The more support, the better our chances of getting out.”

On Nov. 7, hundreds of parents, students, college antiwar activists, Vietnam veterans and free speech advocates showed up at the school district’s board meeting calling on officials to reconsider their actions and not expel the students.

Many say school officials overreacted.

Most meeting attendees praised the students for speaking out and said their First Amendment rights should protect them.

Adam Szwarek, another student protester, said the sit-in was in part due to the increased presence of military recruiters who are on campus four times a week. “Everyday the military is trying to get us to do push-ups,” said Szwarek. “They are supporting death, mayhem and murder, and what we did was the opposite.”

“Expel the military recruiters, not the students,” one parent demanded, speaking for others, as well.

Jonathan Acevedo, 16, played guitar and sang “Kumbaya” and “Give Peace a Chance” during the lunchtime protest as students held hands and carried peace signs.

“I think the war is unjust,” Acevedo told the World. “Too many people and children have died, and it’s just not right to me.”

Acevedo said he thought about joining the military at one point.

“Recruiters come and try to say that war is cool,” he said. “But then I asked myself, ‘What is the point?’ It wouldn’t be worth wasting my life.”

He added, “The war is affecting our economy. We shouldn’t be paying for something we don’t believe in. That money could be used for curing diseases.”

Acevedo’s mother, Alma Moran, supports her son and said the expulsion penalty was too harsh. “These kids don’t deserve to be expelled,” she told the World in a phone interview.

Moran added, “They should not lose their future just because they speak out. It was a very peaceful protest.”

Mark Serpico, the father of one of the suspended students, agrees. “Our children are slowly losing their freedoms, and I’m not going to put up with it,” he said. “Why are we there anyway — for oil?”

Serpico said his son’s involvement in the protest was “awesome.”

“I’m behind him 100 percent,” he said.

[Liono]

Sure you can expel recuiters if you want to and the US government can turn around and withdraw all federal funding. It's a win win situation. I never liked Morton HS anyway. They beat our HS twice my Freshman year in football.

[MTAFFI]

it is just a joke so please dont get all crazy angry on me

[Amadeus85]

it is just a joke so please dont get all crazy angry on me

Why get crazy? I think that you are very right Mtaffi.
Modern pacifist movement (after 1945) was created and inspired (ideological and financial) by soviets. In most of pacifist groups appeared in 60's (all those anti vietnam activists) were at least one soviet agent. Communists wanted to weaken the american fight with communists in Vietnam. Of course they supported pacification of West, but Soviet Union should have remained militarized.Soviet agents were also responsible for creating all those antiglobalist movements and feminist movement. But this is another story.

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[Keltoi]

If you don't support the war, then don't sign up for the Marine Corps. when they come to your school. Freedom of speech goes both ways.

[wilberhum]

I guess some think if you don't agree with the war, you shouldn't help defend your country.

To deam the entire Armed Services evil is a bit one sided.

PS: I don't support the war in Iraq.

[Jayda]

hola

sending recruiters into schools is like sending wolves into lamb pens... especially in schools with poorer neighborhoods... education is what brings these kids opportunity, guns and blood on somebody elses sand destroys their futures.

and why is it considered 'american opportunity' that the evil mexicans go off to fight americas invasions of other countries, but when they want to be citizens or to find employment, then it's an invasion of the united states?

que Dios te bendiga

[Keltoi]

hola

sending recruiters into schools is like sending wolves into lamb pens... especially in schools with poorer neighborhoods... education is what brings these kids opportunity, guns and blood on somebody elses sand destroys their futures.

and why is it considered 'american opportunity' that the evil mexicans go off to fight americas invasions of other countries, but when they want to be citizens or to find employment, then it's an invasion of the united states?

que Dios te bendiga

Evil Mexicans? That red herring aside, the military is also a great opportunity for low income kids who need discipline and job training.

As for the Mexicans who serve in the U.S. military, they are granted citizenship. It is a legal avenue for them. You know...we have these pesky things called laws. Occasionally, we actually enforce them. If you cross the border illegally you are an illegal alien. There is no reason to apologize for expecting the U.S. government to enforce our laws.

[wilberhum]

hola

sending recruiters into schools is like sending wolves into lamb pens... especially in schools with poorer neighborhoods... education is what brings these kids opportunity, guns and blood on somebody elses sand destroys their futures.

and why is it considered 'american opportunity' that the evil mexicans go off to fight americas invasions of other countries, but when they want to be citizens or to find employment, then it's an invasion of the united states?

que Dios te bendiga

Thinks for the enlightenment. I didn't "evil mexicans" were the ones defending our country.

And if no one enters the services, you will not have to worry about finding employment. You will be working in a concentration camp.

[Jayda]

Evil Mexicans? That red herring aside, the military is also a great opportunity for low income kids who need discipline and job training.

As for the Mexicans who serve in the U.S. military, they are granted citizenship. It is a legal avenue for them. You know...we have these pesky things called laws. Occasionally, we actually enforce them. If you cross the border illegally you are an illegal alien. There is no reason to apologize for expecting the U.S. government to enforce our laws.

hola

if it is such a great opportunity why do recruiters need to lie to underprivileged kids to get them to join?

the red herring is that everyone stamped with the title 'illegal' is the result of sneaking across borders in order to steal jobs and run drugs. like the welfare queen (16, black 10 kids, lazy, lives on welfare) this is a gross misrepresentation. in most cases these are people who have families in the united states and have come to live with them and support them, like petty office gonzalez whose wife faces deportation while he defends your right to call her 'an illegal.'

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

Thinks for the enlightenment. I didn't "evil mexicans" were the ones defending our country.

And if no one enters the services, you will not have to worry about finding employment. You will be working in a concentration camp.

i'm latina, and i live in the south. if things continue as they are i get the feeling i will be in a concentration camp anyway.

[wilberhum]

i'm latina, and i live in the south. if things continue as they are i get the feeling i will be in a concentration camp anyway.

If you are illegal, I just hope they send you back.

[Jayda]

If you are illegal, I just hope they send you back.

then you're living in a dream world. the fear of millions of us citizens merely because of their background and the persistent nightmare of hordes of brown people jumping fences is irrational.

lol, you have no idea what it's like to try to explain to this:

that you're american.

[wilberhum]

then you're living in a dream world. the fear of millions of us citizens merely because of their background and the persistent nightmare of hordes of brown people jumping fences is irrational.

lol, you have no idea what it's like to try to explain to this:

that you're american.

US Citizens are not illegal. I could care less if an illegal is pink.

Illegals break the law every day. I think the government needs to take action to inforce our laws.

What a wierd approch. Who thinks laws should be enforced. :skeleton:

[Jayda]

US Citizens are not illegal. I could care less if an illegal is pink.

Illegals break the law every day. I think the government needs to take action to inforce our laws.

What a wierd approch. Who thinks laws should be enforced. :skeleton:

'illegals' are a red herring. it doesn't really bother you how many times a legal citizen gets pulled over for looking suspiciously mexican, or how many times 'fellow citizens' harass them under the pretext of defending america from 'them aliens,' it's all in the noble pursuit of enforcing laws.

otherwise they wouldn't be enforced.

in which case they aren't laws.

[wilberhum]

'illegals' are a red herring. it doesn't really bother you how many times a legal citizen gets pulled over for looking suspiciously mexican, or how many times 'fellow citizens' harass them under the pretext of defending america from 'them aliens,' it's all in the noble pursuit of enforcing laws.

otherwise they wouldn't be enforced.

in which case they aren't laws.

Standard raciest bs. You think we shouldn't have borders. You want to support the world? Good on you? Why don't you allow all the illegals to live in your basement and feed them.

Silly me, I don't to.

[Jayda]

Standard raciest bs. You think we shouldn't have borders. You want to support the world? Good on you? Why don't you allow all the illegals to live in your basement and feed them.

Silly me, I don't to.

that isn't a rational response...

[wilberhum]

that isn't a rational response...

That is why I thought you would understand.

You seam to take an irrational stance on everything. :-\

[Jayda]

what is that dreadful creature in your signature?

[Cognescenti]

hola

sending recruiters into schools is like sending wolves into lamb pens... especially in schools with poorer neighborhoods... education is what brings these kids opportunity, guns and blood on somebody elses sand destroys their futures.

and why is it considered 'american opportunity' that the evil mexicans go off to fight americas invasions of other countries, but when they want to be citizens or to find employment, then it's an invasion of the united states?

que Dios te bendiga

As of January, 51 West Point grads had been killed in Iraq. If you don't know what that means...it means they were almost certainly smart and well informed and had plenty of choices in life. Nobody tricked them into joining the military.

You will be happy to hear the junior officers are being killed in just about the right ratio to their presence on the battlefield. I hope that makes you feel better.

As for foreign nationals serving in the US military? Of course they should be offered citizenship after severance.

[Jayda]

As of January, 51 West Point grads had been killed in Iraq. If you don't know what that means...it means they were almost certainly smart and well informed and had plenty of choices in life. Nobody tricked them into joining the military.

You will be happy to hear the junior officers are being killed in just about the right ratio to their presence on the battlefield. I hope that makes you feel better.

As for foreign nationals serving in the US military? Of course they should be offered citizenship after severance.

if people being killed made me feel good then i wouldnt be a nurse, i wouldn't go to medical school, i wouldn't be a pacifist and you and wilberhum wouldn't have anything to argue over with me.

out of curiosity how many of those west point graduates were enlisted? in fact, in the history of west point how many graduates have become enlisted men?

[Cognescenti]

if people being killed made me feel good then i wouldnt be a nurse, i wouldn't go to medical school, i wouldn't be a pacifist and you and wilberhum wouldn't have anything to argue over with me.

out of curiosity how many of those west point graduates were enlisted? in fact, in the history of west point how many graduates have become enlisted men?

They are all officers. West Point doesn't just have a really bad football team, they are also the United States Military Academy.

Your notion that only the ignorant or the economically desperate enlist in the military is elitist and naive.

The unemployment rate in the US is only 4%. You could make more cleaning chickens 8 hrs a day than you can joining the Army.

[Keltoi]

It is most certainly an elitist attitude that makes some Americans...usually on the left of the political spectrum, look down on those in the military as too dumb to make an informed decision about why they wanted to be soldiers. In reality, today's U.S. military is the most well educated in history.

[Jayda]

They are all officers. West Point doesn't just have a really bad football team, they are also the United States Military Academy.

Your notion that only the ignorant or the economically desperate enlist in the military is elitist and naive.

The unemployment rate in the US is only 4%. You could make more cleaning chickens 8 hrs a day than you can joining the Army.

hola,

it's the other way around actually, i think the military recruiters primarily target the economically desperate and ignorant, thus the article i posted before. you may call this elitist, i call it a statistic reality.

the unemployment rate in the united states = the structural unemployment rate in any capitalist system. in other words, 4% unemployment is normal regardless of what positions are presently available, it doesn't result from choice it results from economic structure. and while it is true you may make more in the army than cleaning chickens, you are less likely to be shot and killed cleaning chickens, something the army readily conceals (again, i reference the 'top ten lies of army recruiters' i posted earlier). perhaps there are people willing to risk their lives making an additional 3000 dollars a year... i think it is reasonable that they at least know they are risking their lives instead of being told the possibility of being deployed in a warzone are nearly non existant.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

It is most certainly an elitist attitude that makes some Americans...usually on the left of the political spectrum, look down on those in the military as too dumb to make an informed decision about why they wanted to be soldiers. In reality, today's U.S. military is the most well educated in history.

hola

and i think it is an abusive and ignorant attitude that makes some americans, primarily on the right, strawman reasonable arguments about military abuses into ad hom attacks against soldiers. i also find it absolutely sinful and hypocritical for any "christian" to support the systematic advantage taking of economically depressed people. i might answer to right wing populism, but they will answer to God.

fortunately

que Dios te bendiga

[north_malaysian]

American students are lucky..

In Malaysia ..."No Politics at Schools and Universities" or "Students should not go against Government's policy"

[Amadeus85]

'illegals' are a red herring. it doesn't really bother you how many times a legal citizen gets pulled over for looking suspiciously mexican, or how many times 'fellow citizens' harass them under the pretext of defending america from 'them aliens,' it's all in the noble pursuit of enforcing laws.

otherwise they wouldn't be enforced.

in which case they aren't laws.

If Mexico doesnt like borders so much, they should open their borders with Guatemala.

[islamirama]

If Mexico doesnt like borders so much, they should open their borders with Guatemala.

Reminds me of this....

[Jayda]

hola

one thing i truely hate about the right is that they want people to envy the united states for our wealth, freedoms and power. but that is all they want... they do not want to share it. 'want this but you are not welcome to share in it.'

hiding behind immigration laws is not good enough, this issue is not about people who potentially come to the united states, it is about the subculture that is already here. it is the entire latino culture that is the problem. too catholic, too spanish speaking and too different to be accepted. that is why lou dobbs complains about phone services offering spanish and english, court translators and other public displays of bilingualism. these issues have nothing to do with being illegal or legal, they have to do with belonging to a culture... and yet they are they cornerstones of the 'push the illegals out' movement. we can all see behind the pretexts.

in 100 years it will be the latinos in brooks brothers suits on tv demanding that something be done about all of these horrible strange immigrants from china or liberia or arabia or who knows.

everybody wants the wealth and power and freedom but nobody wants to share it.

que Dios te bendiga

[Cognescenti]

Reminds me of this....

Speaking of assimilating...where did the locals get the steel axe head? ...or the Phoenecian alphabet for that matter?

[Jayda]

hola,

let's get back on topic... i didn't mean to turn this into an immigration debate. it's just been on my mind recently because of something that happened to my cousin.

que Dios te bendiga

[Cognescenti]

hola

one thing i truely hate about the right is that they want people to envy the united states for our wealth, freedoms and power. but that is all they want... they do not want to share it. 'want this but you are not welcome to share in it.'

Sorry Jayda, but that is from page 122 of the playbook and is unadulterated demagoguery.

The American economy is not a finite pie to be chopped up in ever smaller slices. It is dynamic. It grows (usually). It is good for motivated and vigorous and educated people to come to this country with their talents in an orderly fashion. There is even room for uneducated people to come and learn new skills...they will just have to be at the bottom of the ladder for a while. Most are happy to do that because it is light-years ahead of where they came from.

It is not good for tens of millions of people to live here illegally, hiding in the shadows, driving cars without licenses or insurance, taking cash jobs at substandard wages without health and safety protection...etc etc.

What do you think would happen if there were suddenly no borders tomorrow starting at 8 AM in a country like the US with a high standard of living? Have you ever been to Mombai? You are living in a dream world.

As for the rest of the world "envying" the US???? Who cares? It would be nice if they didn't try to kill us just for carrying an American passport in some places, but other than that, I don't really care.

[Jayda]

Sorry Jayda, but that is from page 122 of the playbook and is unadulterated demagoguery.

The American economy is not a finite pie to be chopped up in ever smaller slices. It is dynamic. It grows (usually). It is good for motivated and vigorous and educated people to come to this country with their talents in an orderly fashion. There is even room for uneducated people to come and learn new skills...they will just have to be at the bottom of the ladder for a while. Most are happy to do that because it is light-years ahead of where they came from.

It is not good for tens of millions of people to live here illegally, hiding in the shadows, driving cars without licenses or insurance, taking cash jobs at substandard wages without health and safety protection...etc etc.

What do you think would happen if there were suddenly no borders tomorrow starting at 8 AM in a country like the US with a high standard of living? Have you ever been to Mombai? You are living in a dream world.

As for the rest of the world "envying" the US???? Who cares? It would be nice if they didn't try to kill us just for carrying an American passport in some places, but other than that, I don't really care.

si,

i've been to mumbai, have you? and where have you been that somebody attempted to kill you for carrying a US passport?

stuffing the thread with paranoid predictions and misinformation about the united states being flooded with tens of millions of 'illegals' destroying our standard of living is a canard. the fact of the matter is that regardless of the number of undocumented people living in this country they according to the OECD they support the US economy by taking out a significant percentage of structural unemployment, simply because they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing, according to our federal bank they are helping to fix the account deficit by reducing the flow of remittances and according to uscis most undocumented aliens are here as the result of being the family of and living with naturalized citizens, family ties as strong as 'illegal' mothers living with their citizen children.

this is not about 18 year old drug dealers hopping over fences to pick fruit... that's the latino equivalent of the welfare queen. this is about families, economic opportunity and a sluggish antiquated and unfair immigration system, and this is about a right wing fear of a culture. if it weren't then they wouldn't need to rely on cultural fearmongering about spanish speaking (common to all latinos regardless of citizenship) and drug crimes (common to all citizens regardless of ethnic background).

their pretenses are false and their motivations are racist. start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion, i was serious about getting back on track.

and spare us the land of the free home of the brave speech. this is not 1925, the rest of the world is a very developed and opportunity laden place. the united states has a lot to offer, but it is not "light years" ahead of most of the rest of the world. anybody who has actually been to the rest of the world can tell you that, and by travel i do not mean from the seat of your couch watching CNN. but this is precisely what i am talking about, the right carries this arrogant attitude that we our wealth, power and freedom should be things everybody wants, but the minute we talk about sharing the wealth or opening up to allow people to enjoy these things it's a different matter. then america becomes in danger of turning into 'mumbai' or the rest of what you consider the lesser outside world.

this is not a land of opportunity when it requires a membership card which is only extended to a few people.

que Dios te bendiga

[north_malaysian]

Good one...

[Keltoi]

Actually, immigration isn't a "right" or "left" issue for the most part. The majority of Democrats also support border enforcement. The oldest trick in the book is to make this a racial issue, when race has nothing to do with it. It wouldn't matter if there were 14 million Scandinavians crossing the border illegally, it is still a problem and would be addressed as such.

Back on topic though, the U.S. military recruits those who are either seeking money for college or who already have a skill that they need. Usually those who can't afford college happen to be on the lower end of the socio-economic ladder. Imagine that. We have an all volunteer military. Nobody forces anyone to put on the uniform if they don't wish it.

[Cognescenti]

si,

i've been to mumbai, have you? and where have you been that somebody attempted to kill you for carrying a US passport?

stuffing the thread with paranoid predictions and misinformation about the united states being flooded with tens of millions of 'illegals' destroying our standard of living is a canard. the fact of the matter is that regardless of the number of undocumented people living in this country they according to the OECD they support the US economy by taking out a significant percentage of structural unemployment, simply because they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing, according to our federal bank they are helping to fix the account deficit by reducing the flow of remittances and according to uscis most undocumented aliens are here as the result of being the family of and living with naturalized citizens, family ties as strong as 'illegal' mothers living with their citizen children.

this is not about 18 year old drug dealers hopping over fences to pick fruit... that's the latino equivalent of the welfare queen. this is about families, economic opportunity and a sluggish antiquated and unfair immigration system, and this is about a right wing fear of a culture. if it weren't then they wouldn't need to rely on cultural fearmongering about spanish speaking (common to all latinos regardless of citizenship) and drug crimes (common to all citizens regardless of ethnic background).

their pretenses are false and their motivations are racist. start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion, i was serious about getting back on track.

and spare us the land of the free home of the brave speech. this is not 1925, the rest of the world is a very developed and opportunity laden place. the united states has a lot to offer, but it is not "light years" ahead of most of the rest of the world. anybody who has actually been to the rest of the world can tell you that, and by travel i do not mean from the seat of your couch watching CNN. but this is precisely what i am talking about, the right carries this arrogant attitude that we our wealth, power and freedom should be things everybody wants, but the minute we talk about sharing the wealth or opening up to allow people to enjoy these things it's a different matter. then america becomes in danger of turning into 'mumbai' or the rest of what you consider the lesser outside world.

this is not a land of opportunity when it requires a membership card which is only extended to a few people.

que Dios te bendiga

Nice technique. Deliver a broadside full of cliches and insulting generalizations then call a truce. :okay:

Paranoid.....second sentence. Stylistically, I think you were a bit premature on this.

Fearmongering....second paragraph. I think this one was well placed. Kudos.

Racist....wait for it.....third paragraph. You know, I will applaud you for showing such restraint. Generally, the racism card is played much earlier in the "debate". When played; however, it is a clear sign that all rational discussion is at an end.



Insular, narrow-minded bigot who couldn't tell the difference between Austria and Australia with a divining rod, NASCAR cap on head, beer can in hand, watching CNN yelling "look at all those **** furners"..............Last paragraph. Nice closing. Admit it...that is the image you had...right?


Lastly...the Mother of all cliches....."they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous.

Hasta luego, compadre

[Jayda]

Nice technique. Deliver a broadside full of cliches and insulting generalizations then call a truce. :okay:

Paranoid.....second sentence. Stylistically, I think you were a bit premature on this.

Fearmongering....second paragraph. I think this one was well placed. Kudos.

Racist....wait for it.....third paragraph. You know, I will applaud you for showing such restraint. Generally, the racism card is played much earlier in the "debate". When played; however, it is a clear sign that all rational discussion is at an end.



Insular, narrow-minded bigot who couldn't tell the difference between Austria and Australia with a divining rod, NASCAR cap on head, beer can in hand, watching CNN yelling "look at all those **** furners"..............Last paragraph. Nice closing. Admit it...that is the image you had...right?


Lastly...the Mother of all cliches....."they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous.

Hasta luego, compadre

there never was 'rational' debate. i presented a clear lucid argument based upon infomation and studies from relevant organizations such as the OECD, which you called 'demonstrably preposterous,' about the economic issues involved and relevant agencies like the USCIS about the complexity of 'why they're here.'

your argument, on the other hand, doesn't have a direction other than "nuh uh!!" and it's built upon strawmen, fact by fiat and some rhetorical questions that haven't worked out your way. that's not rational, that's reactionary.

i'm not calling a truce with you, i'm not arguing with you... nothing you've said has given me the impression i should take your opinion seriously. i'm simply saying it's time to get back on topic.

[Cognescenti]

...
your argument, on the other hand, doesn't have a direction other than "nuh uh!!" and it's built upon strawmen, fact by fiat and some rhetorical questions that haven't worked out your way. that's not rational, that's reactionary...

Very well, let's take your claim: "they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous. Ask yourself who packed meat, performed landscape maint. and hung drywall before these postitions were filled by large numbers of people who somehow misplaced their documents. I think you know the answer. If cutting grass paid $100 an hour in cash I would do it and I am pretty sure I know where my documents are.

Of course there are economic benefits to a big low-skill labor pool. It makes things cheaper. There are costs too..chiefly in terms of government expenditures. Yes, it is indeed a complex problem, much too complex to glibly proclaim any opponent to open borders a "racist". Now, back to the topic. :shade:

[MTAFFI]

jayda I find it amusing that you think that these "under privledged" kids would be throwing their future away by joining the armed forces. Do you know many jobs open up to you when you can say you were in the military? IF they are underprivledged and have not been accepted to college it is the best thing for them, why not? What else are they going to do? Work a minimum pay job, live in a crappy apartment and struggle for the rest of their life? Give me a break


IDEA: How about the twelve million illegals that dont pay any taxes, auto insurance or really anything back into the system go and earn their way in? Wouldnt that be better than drunk driving illegals killing other people that have insurance and living them and their families with no future only to be deported and swim right back?

VOTE YES FOR IMMIGRATION LAWS

[Isambard]

Well Jayda, I am a latino immigrant (Peru). I was accepted by my own merits and I pay taxes, have identification, and get the same job as everyone else w/o resorting to lower pay.

Illegal immigration is not fair not only for natives, but for anyone who actually has to go thru the process to get into either the US or Canada. Illegal immigrants are very much a drain on an economy as well as the avg native worker in that they de-stabilize the equibrium of supply/demand by oversupplying the market with cheap labour.

I say take all illegals back to their countries and make punshiments strict. Yes latin america and central america on the whole is pretty terrible but hey, its our own fault by always seeking an 'easy way out'.

All defending illegal immigration does is reinforce the steorotype they we as a ppl are lazy and theiving.

[Jayda]

hola,

your backgrounds don't matter... it's only perpetuating the argument ad hominem begun by cognescenti et al. the facts matter... the facts i presented from extremely trustworthy sources (uscis) say that the undocumented workers in this country are here mostly because of very close family ties, such as the soldier who was begging the government not to deport his wife.

the evidence i presented (oecd) also says that undocumented immigrants reduce remmitances and reduce the structural unemployment. these are facts, empiracle observation and sound analysis from qualified experts, not stereotypes or reasoning from the seat of ones pants.

the facts clearly indicate that they are an economic beneft, not a drain, and that they are here for more substantial reasons than the desire to work for slave wages.

those issues dispelled, if this were really about 'the law' why does this movement so heavily support the vigilante border militias who extrajudicially hold people, have been kicked out of california for weapons violations and have been specifically condemned and been asked to disband by the President? where are these law crusaders on this issue?

furthermore, nobody has addressed my observation that if this were geniunely about border security arguments about dual language and 'integration' wouldn't be so prominent as they target a culture rather than a class of immigrants. spanish and other cultural aspects are just as central to a 'legal' immigrant family as an 'illegal' one, and recognizing both languages in the united states benefits citizens as much as illegal immigrants.

yet it remains one of the most hotly contested aspects of the so called illegal immigrant crisis. to me this merely demonstrates an ethnic agenda cloaked in legalism.

i'm not going to sacrifice the truth so that i can pander to prejudice because already bigoted people think i'm lazy and theiving. the masters degree in business and bachelors with dual majors in economics and biochemistry hanging on my wall from columbia university prove to me such accusations lack merit on their face. nor am i going to allow you to pretend that only latinos take my position, the entire democratic party agrees that the best answer is a path to legal citizenship, rather than mass deportation, based upon the economic and social realities i presented. the party that was elected by a majority in 2006 to control congress proposes a path to citizenship. why then should i back down because the half the lost out will continue to think i'm lazy and theiving?

lol the funniest thing is i'm criolla, not mestizo, and half french. most people think i'm italian, because all mexicans are brown and don't have names like 'annette.' i've had to hold my tongue through countless dinner parties with my husband's absurd politician friends while they rave on and on about hordes of illegals taking over the united states.

que Dios te bendiga

[Jayda]

jayda I find it amusing that you think that these "under privledged" kids would be throwing their future away by joining the armed forces. Do you know many jobs open up to you when you can say you were in the military? IF they are underprivledged and have not been accepted to college it is the best thing for them, why not? What else are they going to do? Work a minimum pay job, live in a crappy apartment and struggle for the rest of their life? Give me a break


IDEA: How about the twelve million illegals that dont pay any taxes, auto insurance or really anything back into the system go and earn their way in? Wouldnt that be better than drunk driving illegals killing other people that have insurance and living them and their families with no future only to be deported and swim right back?

VOTE YES FOR IMMIGRATION LAWS

hola

my point is relatively simple, if the military is an opportunity for the underprivileged then why do they have to lie and misrepresent the danger involved (per the article i posted) when they speak to kids about joining?

nobody's answered that yet.

they're KIDS for God's sake, and already disadvantaged by economic circumstances. education is their best chance, not being shipped off to kill people in foreign countries, be killed themselves, horribly disfigured or scarred and very possibly emotionally distraught for the rest of their lives. does that sound like an opportunity to you? it sounds to me like a gamble, a very serious gamble, the kind of gamble kids in high school are not mature enough to make. fortunately they don't have to make it, because they are lied to about the very real possibility of harm the decision is as simple as taking the candy they are offered.

and how many times have you been hit by a drunk undocumented worker?

que Dios te bendiga

[MTAFFI]

hola

my point is relatively simple, if the military is an opportunity for the underprivileged then why do they have to lie and misrepresent the danger involved (per the article i posted) when they speak to kids about joining?

nobody's answered that yet.

How exactly do they "misrepresent" the danger of being killed in a war? My guess is if a high school student joins the military under the pretense that there is no danger in being killed, scarred or otherwise, then they probably arent a Harvard student anyways. I think everyone knows we are at war and everyone knows that people die in war, I dont think you have to even graduate high school to know that do you? Answer that please.

they're KIDS for God's sake, and already disadvantaged by economic circumstances.

I guess that is a bit of a catch 22 for the mexican student since part of the economic hardship is due to their old neighbors entering the country illegally

education is their best chance, not being shipped off to kill people in foreign countries, be killed themselves, horribly disfigured or scarred and very possibly emotionally distraught for the rest of their lives. does that sound like an opportunity to you? it sounds to me like a gamble, a very serious gamble, the kind of gamble kids in high school are not mature enough to make.

A gamble huh? How many have been killed or wounded in this war, say 35,000, that is a bit high i think but just for an easy number. With over a million active duty service men it looks like that gamble is about 3.5%. I would take that bet at the casino wouldnt you? You have a 96.5% chance of winning and making something of yourself, but there is the chance of loss. I would take that bet any day of the week, and I would have gone in the military myself when the recruiters came to my school, but I had a good GPA and was already shopping for college so the decision was easy for me, easier than it was for those who are doing miserably in school and would have ended up as the next flood of janitors, drug dealers, or whatever happens to high school graduates that take no further steps to better themselves.

fortunately they don't have to make it, because they are lied to about the very real possibility of harm the decision is as simple as taking the candy they are offered.

AGAIN, How are they lied to? They are told the benefits of joining the service, I think the downside is pretty obvious.

and how many times have you been hit by a drunk undocumented worker?

Myself, none, however my grandparents (luckily they werent in the car) had their car demolished by an illegal mexican who had no insurance and was under the influence, he fled the scene of the accident and was picked up passed out in his car 2 miles up the road. How is that for an example for you? Do you know what happened? He was fingerprinted, jailed and then deported, do you know how much compensation my grandparents recieved? NONE, their insurance is now higher because of the incident, is that fair? Not only that but there has been more than one incident in charlotte of the drunk illegal immigrants actually driving (drunk or not it doesnt seem to matter) on the wrong side of the road and killing people, probably because they dont bother to get a drivers license or even learn the language before they get in the car and put everyone else at risk. This is just one of many problems we face with this immigration issue.

que Dios te bendiga

wow, i really dislike that language

Goodbye or talk to you later is fine for me

[Liono]

Speaking of assimilating...where did the locals get the steel axe head? ...or the Phoenecian alphabet for that matter?

Or Spanish horses or African basket weaving

[Liono]

REmind me again, what is Mexico's policy towards immigration when it comes to their southern neighbors?

[Liono]

Very well, let's take your claim: "they are willing to do jobs that no other americans are interested in doing"

That is demonstrably preposterous. Ask yourself who packed meat, performed landscape maint. and hung drywall before these postitions were filled by large numbers of people who somehow misplaced their documents. I think you know the answer. If cutting grass paid $100 an hour in cash I would do it and I am pretty sure I know where my documents are.

Of course there are economic benefits to a big low-skill labor pool. It makes things cheaper. There are costs too..chiefly in terms of government expenditures. Yes, it is indeed a complex problem, much too complex to glibly proclaim any opponent to open borders a "racist". Now, back to the topic. :shade:

Exactly, my father does the jobs "no one else wants to do" every single day and is slowly being driven out of business because illegals depress the wages so much.

[Cognescenti]

I think most people know what an "Army" is for. It is a cross-cultural phenomenon. I suppose there might be a few who think the Marine Corps is some type of marine biology volunteer program, but I suspect the number is fairly small.

As for recruits not realizing there is a war on, I tend to agree with Jayda. I think any potential recruit emerging from a 5 year coma should undergo serious counseling and be made to watch 5 years of CNN broadcasts. Wait...that might not meet the new law Congress passed on torture. Perhaps just the counseling would be enough.

We have had Marine Corps recruits in basic training from Camp Pendleton come over to our house for Thanksgiving dinner for 3 years now. I haven't met one who seems to be brainwashed or think he signed up to be a radar technician. They know exactly what they are doing. They also eat a lot of food but they do ask permission for seconds. :statisfie

[Jayda]

hola MTAFFI,

How exactly do they "misrepresent" the danger of being killed in a war? My guess is if a high school student joins the military under the pretense that there is no danger in being killed, scarred or otherwise, then they probably arent a Harvard student anyways. I think everyone knows we are at war and everyone knows that people die in war, I dont think you have to even graduate high school to know that do you? Answer that please.

i do not know if you read my previous article but they tell students that the likelyhood of even being deployed to a warzone is almost none, they do not say anything about being maimed or disfigured, they do not talk about the emotional and psychological scars, they downplay the possibility of being killed (downplay is not the same as simply not discussing), and even the commitment involved... time, position you eventually fill, etc are misrepresented.

when somebody actively misrepresents the danger to a high school student, it does not matter whether the high school student understood soldiers die... they're simply told the reality is different... but what they are told is untrue.

here is another article about it: http://www.wlwt.com/news/4508233/detail.html

Recruiter: "You've got more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

I guess that is a bit of a catch 22 for the mexican student since part of the economic hardship is due to their old neighbors entering the country illegally

how? by paying taxes to support services they will never recieve? or by contributing billions to social security that they don't get to collect?

A gamble huh? How many have been killed or wounded in this war, say 35,000, that is a bit high i think but just for an easy number. With over a million active duty service men it looks like that gamble is about 3.5%. I would take that bet at the casino wouldnt you? You have a 96.5% chance of winning and making something of yourself, but there is the chance of loss. I would take that bet any day of the week, and I would have gone in the military myself when the recruiters came to my school, but I had a good GPA and was already shopping for college so the decision was easy for me, easier than it was for those who are doing miserably in school and would have ended up as the next flood of janitors, drug dealers, or whatever happens to high school graduates that take no further steps to better themselves.

its not as simple as dividing the entire number of people in the military by the number of casualties in iraq. as my article explained, it's a matter of what service you enter, and what the present military demand is at the moment. the army and marine corps bare the brunt of the burden. i'm not certain what casino you wish to gamble in but statistically you don't have 'more chance of dying over here than you do over there,' unless perhaps you live in johanessburg south africa.

AGAIN, How are they lied to? They are told the benefits of joining the service, I think the downside is pretty obvious.

here are the top ten recruiter lies

Myself, none, however my grandparents (luckily they werent in the car) had their car demolished by an illegal mexican who had no insurance and was under the influence, he fled the scene of the accident and was picked up passed out in his car 2 miles up the road. How is that for an example for you? Do you know what happened? He was fingerprinted, jailed and then deported, do you know how much compensation my grandparents recieved? NONE, their insurance is now higher because of the incident, is that fair? Not only that but there has been more than one incident in charlotte of the drunk illegal immigrants actually driving (drunk or not it doesnt seem to matter) on the wrong side of the road and killing people, probably because they dont bother to get a drivers license or even learn the language before they get in the car and put everyone else at risk. This is just one of many problems we face with this immigration issue.

did you ever consider the possibility your grandparents were the victims of chance, rather than a systemic problem of undocumented workers? because undocumented workers are not the only drivers that drive without insurance... in fact when your grandparents got into their cars they had a 14% chance they would be hit by an uninsured motorist. one in seven motorists remains uninsured:

"Despite laws in many states requiring drivers to maintain insurance, about one in seven motorists remain uninsured," according to Elizabeth Sprinkel, senior vice president, who heads the IRC. "

which makes it an issue that extends far beyond undocumented workers.

wow, i really dislike that language

Goodbye or talk to you later is fine for me

okay,

may God bless you

[MTAFFI]

hola MTAFFI,

i do not know if you read my previous article but they tell students that the likelyhood of even being deployed to a warzone is almost none, they do not say anything about being maimed or disfigured, they do not talk about the emotional and psychological scars, they downplay the possibility of being killed (downplay is not the same as simply not discussing), and even the commitment involved... time, position you eventually fill, etc are misrepresented.

What is the likelyhood? DO you even know, we have 1 million active duty service men, and another million on reserve, that is 2 million. we currently have at most 200K fighting, I think it may even be less than that. That is 20%, so by that logic 80% of people signed up are not even fighting for our country right now. In any case, whatever these guys are telling kids the kids know we are at war and they will probably at some point be deployed, if they join the service and think they wont ever have to do anything, are they just in for a free ride?

Recruiter: "You've got more chance of dying over here than you do over there."

Can you prove that statement false?

how? by paying taxes to support services they will never recieve? or by contributing billions to social security that they don't get to collect?

Thats it now we are getting down to it arent we, it is always what can WE get for free, why should we pay if we recieve nothing. Eventually the system of SS will be overhauled and something will be done, but why should everyone else who put into the fund be denied theirs? They are old and should get it we are young and we should figure a new way to take care of ourselves, perhaps contribute more to a 401k or an IRA account, that is what I have always done.... oh yeah that is right, if you are an illegal you dont really get an opportunity for such things, I guess it gets made up though through the free medical care, SS# scamming and of course lack of insurance premiums.

its not as simple as dividing the entire number of people in the military by the number of casualties in iraq. as my article explained, it's a matter of what service you enter, and what the present military demand is at the moment. the army and marine corps bare the brunt of the burden. i'm not certain what casino you wish to gamble in but statistically you don't have 'more chance of dying over here than you do over there,' unless perhaps you live in johanessburg south africa.

Again do you have proof of that? I am not disagreeing, just wishing to know where the fact that you are presenting is coming from. (dont bother using the argument used on the "about" website either, because there are many more than 133,000 people in Iraq )

did you ever consider the possibility your grandparents were the victims of chance, rather than a systemic problem of undocumented workers? because undocumented workers are not the only drivers that drive without insurance... in fact when your grandparents got into their cars they had a 14% chance they would be hit by an uninsured motorist. one in seven motorists remains uninsured:

"Despite laws in many states requiring drivers to maintain insurance, about one in seven motorists remain uninsured," according to Elizabeth Sprinkel, senior vice president, who heads the IRC. "

which makes it an issue that extends far beyond undocumented workers.

Did you ever consider that excuses are like butts, we all have them and they all stink... At least if the motorist were a legal US resident they could be sued and jailed rather than just deported only to return and ruin someone elses week.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impac...accidents.html
why dont you take a look at this site, this is just one of thousand when you plug in illegal immigrant traffic accidents. Where you say 1 in 7 dont carry insurance, that is a chance, however what about 3 in 4 hispanics? The fact is they have no business being here anyways, so even 1 life lost or ruined because of them is to many. The legalization process isnt even hard anyways, you fill out some paperwork submit it wait and work and whamo! you are a citizen, it isnt like it costs money, oh unless you count the things that we mentioned above.


okay,

may God bless you[/QUOTE]

[mujahideenryder]

That high school has some smart students.

[Liono]

That high school has some smart students.

No they don't. Compared to the surrounding schools (Proviso East, Proviso West, Hinsdale South and North, Downers Grove South and North, Walther Lutheran HS, IHM HS) Morton HS has a pretty high dropout rate.

[Jayda]

What is the likelyhood? DO you even know, we have 1 million active duty service men, and another million on reserve, that is 2 million. we currently have at most 200K fighting, I think it may even be less than that. That is 20%, so by that logic 80% of people signed up are not even fighting for our country right now. In any case, whatever these guys are telling kids the kids know we are at war and they will probably at some point be deployed, if they join the service and think they wont ever have to do anything, are they just in for a free ride?

hola

my article clearly answered this question. that's not logic, it's fuzzy math. as i already explained it's a matter of what positions recruiters are trying to fill (enlistees, not officers, for example), which branch of the military, and what the present requirements are among a host of other questions.

Can you prove that statement false?

i already did, 500 out of 133,000. johanessburg isn't even that bad.

Thats it now we are getting down to it arent we, it is always what can WE get for free, why should we pay if we recieve nothing. Eventually the system of SS will be overhauled and something will be done, but why should everyone else who put into the fund be denied theirs? They are old and should get it we are young and we should figure a new way to take care of ourselves, perhaps contribute more to a 401k or an IRA account, that is what I have always done.... oh yeah that is right, if you are an illegal you dont really get an opportunity for such things, I guess it gets made up though through the free medical care, SS# scamming and of course lack of insurance premiums.

no, it is about dispelling the myths that undocumented workers are leaching off the government. as my numbers clearly demonstrate they contribute and recieve nothing in return, that's not leaching.

Again do you have proof of that? I am not disagreeing, just wishing to know where the fact that you are presenting is coming from. (dont bother using the argument used on the "about" website either, because there are many more than 133,000 people in Iraq )

my article is my proof. if you don't care to consider it, that's fine. it's not going anywhere.

Did you ever consider that excuses are like butts, we all have them and they all stink... At least if the motorist were a legal US resident they could be sued and jailed rather than just deported only to return and ruin someone elses week.

...no i can't say that particularly crude thought has gone through my mind.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impac...accidents.html
why dont you take a look at this site, this is just one of thousand when you plug in illegal immigrant traffic accidents. Where you say 1 in 7 dont carry insurance, that is a chance, however what about 3 in 4 hispanics? The fact is they have no business being here anyways, so even 1 life lost or ruined because of them is to many. The legalization process isnt even hard anyways, you fill out some paperwork submit it wait and work and whamo! you are a citizen, it isnt like it costs money, oh unless you count the things that we mentioned above.

because i don't trust a website called 'usillegalaliens.com,' it's clearly agenda driven.

i think you mean 3 of 4 hispanics in some county called 'eastern shore' between the years 2002-2004 (if your article is to be trusted). how you feel this is quantitatively on par with my national averages is beyond me.

and again, hispanics are a cultural cross section, not an economic labor or citizenship class. which only further substantiates my assertion that this is not about laws it is about ethnicity. ethnocentrism masked by legalities. 'i don't like spanish' not 'we are a nation of laws.'


may God bless you

[Liono]

If they are not illigal aliens what are they?

[Jayda]

If they are not illigal aliens what are they?

people?

they are here illegally, i do not deny that. the problems for me are more to do with the complexity of the situation, what i feel is the real undercurrent behind this issue, and the way to resolve it. there are supposedly something like 12 million living in the united states - here because of family ties, jobs and slow or unfair immigration policies for the most part. many have lived here for a long time and fulfill important functions in their communities. they are not the scary evil throngs portrayed on TV, and i do not like that mischaracterization.

i also do not like how issues supposedly 'related' to the immigration problem such as official recognition for spanish in schools and other places. this is cultural, not a matter of immigration. using the immigration issue as a cover for these cultural crusades is disingenuous and wrong.

i think that the solution is integration of those people already here through a logical and organized citizenship exception and then to work out trade and economic treaties with neighboring countries (like mexico) that equalize labor standards so that there is no alternative to fair wages. i also think that better cooperation between the united states and specifically mexico (since that is the country with the greatest number of undocumented workers in the united states) both economically and in terms of continental port security is in our best interests, like the proposal given by the trilateral commission several years ago.

this seems more compassionate and rational to me than the insanity of demanding they all are kicked out of the country and go somewhere else. essentially the united states would be condemning millions of people to homelessness, ripping apart families and destroying local economies that (for good or ill) depend upon these people.

que Dios te bendiga

[Liono]

people?

they are here illegally, i do not deny that. the problems for me are more to do with the complexity of the situation, what i feel is the real undercurrent behind this issue, and the way to resolve it. there are supposedly something like 12 million living in the united states - here because of family ties, jobs and slow or unfair immigration policies for the most part. many have lived here for a long time and fulfill important functions in their communities. they are not the scary evil throngs portrayed on TV, and i do not like that mischaracterization.

i also do not like how issues supposedly 'related' to the immigration problem such as official recognition for spanish in schools and other places. this is cultural, not a matter of immigration. using the immigration issue as a cover for these cultural crusades is disingenuous and wrong.

i think that the solution is integration of those people already here through a logical and organized citizenship exception and then to work out trade and economic treaties with neighboring countries (like mexico) that equalize labor standards so that there is no alternative to fair wages. i also think that better cooperation between the united states and specifically mexico (since that is the country with the greatest number of undocumented workers in the united states) both economically and in terms of continental port security is in our best interests, like the proposal given by the trilateral commission several years ago.

this seems more compassionate and rational to me than the insanity of demanding they all are kicked out of the country and go somewhere else. essentially the united states would be condemning millions of people to homelessness, ripping apart families and destroying local economies that (for good or ill) depend upon these people.

que Dios te bendiga

When you steal a car do we call them thieves or do we call them people? Are you to tell me because we have a common border these people are to get special privledges? You keep making it a racial issue and it's not. I don't care if the person is from Jolly good ole England, if you're here illegally you have to go back. Let's look at it this way. What are the immigration policies of the Mexican government? If they want a free and open border wouldn't they be advocating the same for their own Southern border? People here illegally knew the risk but they took it anyway. If I steal a loaf of bread because my family was hungry no one will have pity on me and go well if he goes to jail it will rip his family apart. At least with deportation the family can go with them.

[wilberhum]

People just like to use the "Race Card" because they want the people who think we should enforce the law look bad. It has nothing to do with race. << That’s a period.

Just this morning I heard that a group in China that bring in 20,000 to 30,000 illegals in to the country was shut down. I say good. I guess that makes me bias against Chinese too.

Here is Seattle there is a problem with car theft. A lot of it comes from Canadian illegals. My car was taken, cost me $20,000. Am I PO? You bet. Do dislike Canadians? No. Do I like illegals? Yes.

It is not a tough thought process.

[MTAFFI]

hola

my article clearly answered this question. that's not logic, it's fuzzy math. as i already explained it's a matter of what positions recruiters are trying to fill (enlistees, not officers, for example), which branch of the military, and what the present requirements are among a host of other questions.

I understand that but when joining service you choose what to join, you can look and do your research and you dont have to join the marines or whatever else, so yes it may be fuzzy, but if these kids havent learned to research by this time and they go in on nothing, then whose fault is it anyways?

i already did, 500 out of 133,000. johanessburg isn't even that bad.

Now that is a little bit of fuzzy math dont you think? Just because there are 133,000 troops doesnt mean that is the total number of everyone in the country, factor everyone in and then give me the figure.

no, it is about dispelling the myths that undocumented workers are leaching off the government. as my numbers clearly demonstrate they contribute and recieve nothing in return, that's not leaching.

So you are saying because the work here illegally but contribute to social security it is OK? What about the rest of the taxes, what about all of the people and reports on that site I gave you? Why, if they wish to help so much do they not just get a green card? Wouldnt be easier? I know why and so do you, they are cheating the system. Illegal is illegal, no matter how you cut it, it is wrong. Also I noticed that the articles mentioned nothing of what they take from the system. How about this, the average birth costs around 8K, do you know how many illegals come in a hospital and get a free delivery just because the hospitals are not allowed to turn anyone away? My wife is a nurse and they see at least 1 a week. Take 52 times a year time 8K, that is 416K per year just in one hospital in Charlotte NC. Do that all over the US and see if they are contributing or leaching the system. That is just births, nevermind the handful after handful of other incidents and occurences.

my article is my proof. if you don't care to consider it, that's fine. it's not going anywhere.

Hardly proof of anything, besides was that article not agenda driven? But yet you choose to use that as fact but disregard mine. I guess it is just all about what you wish to get out of it huh?

because i don't trust a website called 'usillegalaliens.com,' it's clearly agenda driven.

Perhaps agenda driven but if you take the time to read some of it you will find it is based on news reports, government statistics, etc. Deny if you wish but the facts "arent going anywhere"

i think you mean 3 of 4 hispanics in some county called 'eastern shore' between the years 2002-2004 (if your article is to be trusted). how you feel this is quantitatively on par with my national averages is beyond me.

Perhaps not right on par, but doing a bit of research and reading a little further down you will notice there are other towns and counties as well, do a google on it, it is amazing because whether it be 3 of 4, 3 of 5, 7 of 8 they all seem to reflect the same sort of problem.

and again, hispanics are a cultural cross section, not an economic labor or citizenship class. which only further substantiates my assertion that this is not about laws it is about ethnicity. ethnocentrism masked by legalities. 'i don't like spanish' not 'we are a nation of laws.'
may God bless you

No it is about legal and illegal, no one is saying they cant come here and work legally are they? We are not baring hispanic people from the country we just ask they sign the necessary forms go through the process and become a citizen, is that to much to ask? Pay taxes, register their cars, pay their insurance, etc. Everything that everyone else has to do and then they are fine, but until then they have no business here and they are only hurting the country.