15 Year Old Child Soldier Held in Guantanamo

[Jayda]

hola,

i do not know if anybody saw 60 minutes this evening but they had a very sad story about a boy named Omar Khadr... it was also on NPR

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=10693462

he is 15 years old and is being held in guantanamo bay prison on charges of terrorism as an adult and as an enemy combatant. he is awaiting a military tribunal, for killing a united states soldier. they covered the story about him and his family, and how his father poisoned him with promises of virgins and martyrdom since he was an even younger child. his older brother was also raised this way but was able to break away from it and now helps the cia. the father was killed in a bombing in afghanistan several months ago and now the mother and her two other sons live in toronto and she is afraid for Omar. the united states said that it would not seek the death penalty because of his age, but they will not consider him a 'child soldier.'

the the international community there are exceptions on criminal prosecution for child soldiers since they are indoctrinated to kill and are victims in every sense of the word... perhaps even more victims than the people they are force, brainwashed or beaten into killing. for some reason this boy is considered an exception by the united states because it is part of the war on terror... i think this is horrible. just because this is not some rebel war in africa doesn't mean the boy is not a victim. i feel horrible about the death of the soldier he killed, i know if that were my husband i would be inconsolible... but to find out it was a child and that they wanted to throw him in a torture prison instead of trying to undo what has happened to him would make me sick.

15 is still a child... i wish there were some place to sign a petition or write to somebody about this...

que Dios te bendiga

[wilberhum]

Would the soldier we less dead if the boy was 21?

Now I have many problems with Guantanamo. I think every one should be tried or set free and Guantanamo shut down.

But I have no problem with putting a 15 year old killer in jail.

[MTAFFI]

Jayda

you may wish to plug that young boys name on a search, he comes from a family of terrorist and killers. They could have let him die on the battlefield, which IMHO would probably have been best, but he is an enemy combatant he did kill more than one US soldier, and probably deserves punishment for such.

(i dont however agree with Gitmo, I am with wilbur on that)

[Jayda]

Would the soldier we less dead if the boy was 21?

Now I have many problems with Guantanamo. I think every one should be tried or set free and Guantanamo shut down.

But I have no problem with putting a 15 year old killer in jail.

would the soldier be less dead if the child was 10? how about 8? 3 and a half? this isn't about the soldier, it's about the boy. who couldn't have sympathy for the family of the lost soldier, but only a monster would turn their head to the fact that this is a 15 year old boy who was brainwashed by his father for years. in africa it's a humanitarian crisis, he needs help not an orange suit

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[wilberhum]

Well I guess I'm a monster, at least by your defination.

But isn't this just another example of you thinking people who commit illegal acts should not be held accountable?

[Jayda]

Jayda

you may wish to plug that young boys name on a search, he comes from a family of terrorist and killers. They could have let him die on the battlefield, which IMHO would probably have been best, but he is an enemy combatant he did kill more than one US soldier, and probably deserves punishment for such.

(i dont however agree with Gitmo, I am with wilbur on that)

hola,

there are enough dead children on the battlefield as it is, perhaps the soldiers who took him decided that they didn't want to contribute. he is not an enemy combatant, kids don't know what that means, he was brainwashed by his father to believe he would recieve virgins and other rewards in heaven and that this is what his father wanted for him. he can't help being raised that way, but psychologists with experience helping child soldiers can help. that's where he should be, not in a prison.

que Dios te bendiga

[MTAFFI]

would the soldier be less dead if the child was 10? how about 8? 3 and a half? this isn't about the soldier, it's about the boy. who couldn't have sympathy for the family of the lost soldier, but only a monster would turn their head to the fact that this is a 15 year old boy who was brainwashed by his father for years. in africa it's a humanitarian crisis, he needs help not an orange suit

WOW... so what do you think should be done with the "boy"

[Jayda]

Well I guess I'm a monster, at least by your defination.

But isn't this just another example of you thinking people who commit illegal acts should not be held accountable?

yes, by my definition supporting draconian measures against brainwashed children makes you a monster. and yes, this is yet another example of me making exceptions to the rules out of practicality and a sense of morality.

[wilberhum]

hola,

there are enough dead children on the battlefield as it is, perhaps the soldiers who took him decided that they didn't want to contribute. he is not an enemy combatant, kids don't know what that means, he was brainwashed by his father to believe he would recieve virgins and other rewards in heaven and that this is what his father wanted for him. he can't help being raised that way, but psychologists with experience helping child soldiers can help. that's where he should be, not in a prison.

que Dios te bendiga

Why don't you house him? You seam to have great compassion for those that kill. Or do you just like making excuses for people who do wrong?

[Jayda]

WOW... so what do you think should be done with the "boy"

not "boy," it's boy. and he should be with his family in counselling. amnesty international and the united nations both have excellent programs to help this humanitarian crisis.

[MTAFFI]

hola,

there are enough dead children on the battlefield as it is, perhaps the soldiers who took him decided that they didn't want to contribute. he is not an enemy combatant, kids don't know what that means, he was brainwashed by his father to believe he would recieve virgins and other rewards in heaven and that this is what his father wanted for him. he can't help being raised that way, but psychologists with experience helping child soldiers can help. that's where he should be, not in a prison.

que Dios te bendiga

so he doesnt know what an enemy combatant is but he knows how to kill someone and he knows the reward of getting a virgin? Dont little boys think girls are "ewww"? Why would a "little boy" want virgins and death? I think you intentions are really great, it would be wonderful if everyone in the world could get counseling and get along with one another, and fly on unicorns everywhere but the fact is the world is not a nice place, probably never will be and to let a killer loose because he is young is quite simply stupid.

[wilberhum]

yes, by my definition supporting draconian measures against brainwashed children makes you a monster. and yes, this is yet another example of me making exceptions to the rules out of practicality and a sense of morality.

Well I think people who support illegals are Monsters, so there. :skeleton:

You think having morals equates to not holding people responsible for what they do.

I think morals requires you to hold people responsible for what they do.

So I guess we can't even agree on what morals are. :skeleton:

[MTAFFI]

^^ maybe this will help you out wibur

mo·ral·i·ty
The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct.

I wonder if it were good conduct for this boy to blow up a soldier? I wonder if it is good conduct to illegally cross borders? I wonder if being promiscuous and working as a prostitute is good conduct? I wonder if making excuses for all of the above is good conduct? I wonder if Jayda is mistaking morality with immorality? :? :?

You know Jayda, just because the devil is the epitome of all that is evil doesnt mean he is bad, he is just doing what comes natural to him... perhaps a little psycho babble would convince him to stop corrupting the world and allow peace and happiness... The way you are going we shouldnt condemn him either :omg: Where do you draw the line?

[Jayda]

i only get headaches like this when i'm talking to republicans...

[MTAFFI]

i only get headaches like this when i'm talking to republicans...

LOL, better than a democrat... LOL not really, I am not sure there is a good political party anymore, perhaps we can agree on that!

Anyways, I can concede that the young man was force fed terrorist rhetoric his whole life, but why should we have to pay to reverse it especially when the chances are you never will. I am more of a "let God sort them out" sort of guy, in the end that is all that matters anyways, right?

Disclaimer: "them" was not refering to any specific ethnic, religious or political group. Basically it is refering to everyone who inevitably dies.

[wilberhum]

I’m a Democrat. MTAFFI, are you a Republican? :mmokay:

If so, I guess Jayda will have lots of headaches. :giggling::giggling::giggling:

[Jayda]

LOL, better than a democrat... LOL not really, I am not sure there is a good political party anymore, perhaps we can agree on that!

i'm a republican, see? elephant. maybe i should change it to a rhino, aside from pro life i'm too often accused of being compassionate toward undesireables.

Anyways, I can concede that the young man was force fed terrorist rhetoric his whole life, but why should we have to pay to reverse it especially when the chances are you never will. I am more of a "let God sort them out" sort of guy, in the end that is all that matters anyways, right?

Disclaimer: "them" was not refering to any specific ethnic, religious or political group. Basically it is refering to everyone who inevitably dies.

... do you have any idea how sociopathic that sounds?

God didn't create us so that we could suffer for a little while and then die. and you should pay to reverse it because he's a child and it's the right thing to do. it will cost you tax money, it might not work, you will never get anything out of it... but there is a very good possibility you may save a child and countless others if they in turn help illuminate the things we do not understand about how children are pulled into this culture of death.

[MTAFFI]

I’m a Democrat. MTAFFI, are you a Republican? :mmokay:

If so, I guess Jayda will have lots of headaches. :giggling::giggling::giggling:

I am what they call a southern democrat

Republican side

Dont believe in abortion
Dont believe in illegal immigration
Dont believe in taking God out of schools (if you dont like it or believe it just ignore it)
I am PRO Gun
I am for taxes (I know it sounds crazy but taxes really help alot of things)
Support the troops
Support the death penalty

Democrat side

I am for stem cell research
I am against the war in Iraq
I am for the legalization of marijuana (hey its better than alcohol)
I am for talks with "terrorist" states
I like to see the minorities get a little help from time to time

[Woodrow]

Perhaps this thread should have been simply an info thread and replies to it blocked. There is no need for personal comments against any person, let us stick to the topic and not the poster.

[Cognescenti]

Perhaps a bit of clarification is in order.

He isn't a "Child Soldier". I am able to say this because he isn't a "child" (he is now 21) and he never was a "soldier". His father was a financier for Al Quaeda. He had evidently been indoctrinated with the hatred that Al Quaeda espouses. According to international legal definitions he is an "illegal enemy combatant".

Perhaps he should be better called an "illegal enemy combatant who was a minor at the time of his alleged criminal act". Of course, that doesn't quite elicit the same level of sympathy does it?

That the greatest crime here was commited by his father to use his own sons in such a cynnical and destructive manner can scarcely be denied, but there is still the problem of what to do with him. Has he renounced his views? You want him to see a psychologist???? Maybe he could join a support group and just do some community service or something. Maybe someone here has an extra room or a basement than can be remodeled? He can stay at your house. Maybe he could take some auto repair classes or get his GED. Come on people! Let's try to inject some common sense here. He wasn't defending his country. He is Canadian. Do you think the Army Rangers (as opposed to the hockey team) attacked Toronto? Despite his age, he was an active member of a terror organization. "Child Soldier"?????? Bull ****.

The great wailing sound coming from the Left has been for the Gitmo detainees to have a trial. He is the first under the new procedure the Congress passed. So...let the trial proceed. Let his attorney make that argument. Let him convince the judge that he thought the grenade was a toy. Let him offer a plea bargain like that idiot Al Quaeda wanna be from Australia did.

[Liono]

I am what they call a southern democrat

Republican side

Dont believe in abortion
Dont believe in illegal immigration
Dont believe in taking God out of schools (if you dont like it or believe it just ignore it)
I am PRO Gun
I am for taxes (I know it sounds crazy but taxes really help alot of things)
Support the troops
Support the death penalty

Democrat side

I am for stem cell research
I am against the war in Iraq
I am for the legalization of marijuana (hey its better than alcohol)
I am for talks with "terrorist" states
I like to see the minorities get a little help from time to time

You're not a Southern Democrat, you're a Libertarian.

[ayesha309]

Omar Khadr is Canadian; his story comes on Candaian television a lot becuase he is the only Canadian in Guantanamo Bay. he WAS 15 when he was taken to Guantanamo Bay, but that was in 2002. Curently he is 20 years old. In Guantanmo Bay he has been severy physically abused, he is blind from one eye, becuase of excessive beating and according to the CBC he has been used as a human mop to wipe urine and bysially he has been put through excrutiating pain. there is a limit even when it comes to punishing terrorists.

[Liono]

Omar Khadr is Canadian; his story comes on Candaian television a lot becuase he is the only Canadian in Guantanamo Bay. he WAS 15 when he was taken to Guantanamo Bay, but that was in 2002. Curently he is 20 years old. In Guantanmo Bay he has been severy physically abused, he is blind from one eye, becuase of excessive beating and according to the CBC he has been used as a human mop to wipe urine and bysially he has been put through excrutiating pain. there is a limit even when it comes to punishing terrorists.

And yet the International Red Cross has inspected the place and never mention it? When did CDC reporters get access to Camp Xray?

[MTAFFI]

... do you have any idea how sociopathic that sounds?

I am sorry but..... LOL BUHAAHAHAHAMUAHHAHAHA

For some reason I just got a image of you grimacing at the monitor when you read my post and then typing that statement... LOL

God didn't create us so that we could suffer for a little while and then die. and you should pay to reverse it because he's a child and it's the right thing to do. it will cost you tax money, it might not work, you will never get anything out of it... but there is a very good possibility you may save a child and countless others if they in turn help illuminate the things we do not understand about how children are pulled into this culture of death.

OK for the serious stuff, I am just a realist, we are in a world where death is unavoidable, life is really just a transition, in the grand scheme we are only here a while and while I am here I would rather not worry about anyone (including 15 yr olds) tossing grenades my way. I know it sounds inhumane to you but I just dont care about people who choose to commit these acts, he took another mans life and so now his should be taken, until you can rehabilitate that other dead guy why should this young man get a chance? That mans family probably wishes him back everyday, the probably mourn him everyday and they deserve retribution. An eye for an eye, that is the law of God, not me your bible even says so.

[Liono]

I am sorry but..... LOL BUHAAHAHAHAMUAHHAHAHA

For some reason I just got a image of you grimacing at the monitor when you read my post and then typing that statement... LOL


OK for the serious stuff, I am just a realist, we are in a world where death is unavoidable, life is really just a transition, in the grand scheme we are only here a while and while I am here I would rather not worry about anyone (including 15 yr olds) tossing grenades my way. I know it sounds inhumane to you but I just dont care about people who choose to commit these acts, he took another mans life and so now his should be taken, until you can rehabilitate that other dead guy why should this young man get a chance? That mans family probably wishes him back everyday, the probably mourn him everyday and they deserve retribution. An eye for an eye, that is the law of God, not me your bible even says so.

But vengence is mine sayeth the Lord.

[Jayda]

I am sorry but..... LOL BUHAAHAHAHAMUAHHAHAHA

For some reason I just got a image of you grimacing at the monitor when you read my post and then typing that statement... LOL

si... that's about right

[ayesha309]

And yet the International Red Cross has inspected the place and never mention it? When did CDC reporters get access to Camp Xray?

first of all, its CBC not CDC; (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) Canada's leading news network. here is the source where it talks abt Omar Khadr being used as a human mop:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...r10072006.html

"and why did the international red cross not mention it?" i fail to understand that my self; why dont you ask them why they dont talk abt Khadr's abuses in Guantanamo Bay
i know Amnesty International has said somethings

[wilberhum]

I am what they call a southern democrat

Republican side

Dont believe in abortion
Dont believe in illegal immigration
Dont believe in taking God out of schools (if you dont like it or believe it just ignore it)
I am PRO Gun
I am for taxes (I know it sounds crazy but taxes really help alot of things)
Support the troops
Support the death penalty

Democrat side

I am for stem cell research
I am against the war in Iraq
I am for the legalization of marijuana (hey its better than alcohol)
I am for talks with "terrorist" states
I like to see the minorities get a little help from time to time

Wow, we agree 11 out of 12. I just think prayer is a privet matter and wrong to make a non/different believer feel out of place. If it is public school then which religion/god/no-god should the school support?

[Liono]

first of all, its CBC not CDC; (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation) Canada's leading news network. here is the source where it talks abt Omar Khadr being used as a human mop:
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...r10072006.html

"and why did the international red cross not mention it?" i fail to understand that my self; why dont you ask them why they dont talk abt Khadr's abuses in Guantanamo Bay
i know Amnesty International has said somethings

Sorry it was a typo. You mean the AI that has never been to Gitmo?

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
If he committed a crime and is found guilty of it, he should serve punishment. Certain countries have different opinions when it comes to age in criminals and this can actually influence the punishment as can the context of the crime - it really depends on how dogmatic the judge is.

This being said though, Gitmo is a punishment that no man or woman should ever have to endure. In fact, I don't think you can call it a punishment - torture is more accurate.

[Liono]

I just read the story. What are these declassified reports? Surely they can give the name of these reports. Maybe post a copy of them? Your lawyer will say anything to give you lenency. OJ lawyers said he didn't kill Nicole do you believe that too?

[ayesha309]

so you would prefer to believe the opressor's view and the view of the opressed??
by the way i have to leave so i wont be able to respond to your comment

[Liono]

so you would prefer to believe the opressor's view and the view of the opressed??
by the way i have to leave so i wont be able to respond to your comment

I prefer to hear from someone that don't have a dog in the fight. The Red Cross silence is good enough for me.

[Muezzin]

Well, after lifting habeus corpus, I suppose locking kiddies* up isn't much of a stretch.

And before anyone gets heated - lighten up.

In British law, kids are treated as adults for the purposes of criminal law after the age of... 10, I think. I don't know what the USA's laws are in these matters. If this Guantanamo ruling is inconsistent with the internal laws of the USA... it's hypocritical, no?

Also, can we leave all this Republican Versus Democrat stuff where it belongs please? Namely on WWE Smackdown.

*at the time of the offence

[Cognescenti]

Well, after lifting habeus corpus, I suppose locking kiddies* up isn't much of a stretch.

And before anyone gets heated - lighten up.

In British law, kids are treated as adults for the purposes of criminal law after the age of... 10, I think. I don't know what the USA's laws are in these matters. If this Guantanamo ruling is inconsistent with the internal laws of the USA... it's hypocritical, no?

*at the time of the offence

As you probably know, criminal law varies by State. California does indeed have a provision for trying minors "as adults". I believe the Prosecutor has to seek permission from the Judge to bring such a charge. It is generally reserved for heinous crimes or repeat felony offenders (like gang memebers). Other states have very similar systems. I am not sure that there is a similar provison under Federal crimes, but there may well be.

Just for clarification, the young toddler here is not being tried in Federal Court, he is being tried under a new law permitting a hearing for illegal combatants before a military judge using rules of evidence similar to the UCMJ.
In that sense, the tribunal is exactly consistent with US Law as the SCOTUS told the President he needed instruction from Congress....so the Congress gave it to him :D et voila

[Malaikah]

If he committed a crime and is found guilty of it, he should serve punishment.

:sl:

The question is- what crime did he commit? It only says he killed a US soldier. If the soldier didn't want to die, he should not have gone to war. It is a war. You either kill or be killed.

How many people did that soldier kill? I hope his killings aren't seen as less of a crime because he is the American! Those people he is killing would see him as much of a criminal and he would have seen them.

You expect the your enemy to just stand still and not fight back.

On the other hand, the boy was not just a child, he was 15 years old. That is old enough to understand. Of course, however, in different societies people mature at different rates... an Afghani fifteen years is not the same as an American one.

[wilberhum]

:sl:

The question is- what crime did he commit? It only says he killed a US soldier. If the soldier didn't want to die, he should not have gone to war. It is a war. You either kill or be killed.

How many people did that soldier kill? I hope his killings aren't seen as less of a crime because he is the American! Those people he is killing would see him as much of a criminal and he would have seen them.

You expect the your enemy to just stand still and not fight back.

On the other hand, the boy was not just a child, he was 15 years old. That is old enough to understand. Of course, however, in different societies people mature at different rates... an Afghani fifteen years is not the same as an American one.

Do you assume the soldier joined the services to "go to war"?

When you "Join" you just made your last "Choice".

That, and all other points are blurred.

[Chechnya]

its a war - theyre fully trained and armed soldiers, he's a fighter, he turned out to be the better fighter and killed the american - fair play to him

[MTAFFI]

its a war - theyre fully trained and armed soldiers, he's a fighter, he turned out to be the better fighter and killed the american - fair play to him

indeed, and now being as good of a soldier as those who captured him he is a prisoner, really why should we even give him a trial, why not simply saw his head off with a dull knife?

[al-muslimah]

OMG I love the khadr family and he was 15 when arrested now he is like 24 i think.Mashallah what astrong boy he was when he killed that kafir in battle he was in jihad and 15 is ok he reached puberty.The prophet prohibited children who didn't pass puberty to go to jihad like in the battle of uhud Abdulla ibn Umar wanted to go but the prophet send him back him cause he was too young.But he allowed 2 15 year old boys go like samurah bin jundub and his friend go. One was a good archer the other was a good wrestler. then his father died in jihad to day.

May Allah protect him and his brothers, the other prisoners in Guantanomo.Ameen.
Man I really like their family.True muslims.

[ayesha309]

May Allah protect him and his brothers, the other prisoners in Guantanomo.Ameen.
Man I really like their family.True muslims.

one of Omar Khadr's brothers (the oldest) is in prison in canada facing extradition to the US, another one of his brohter (AbdurRahman, the second oldest, around 22) was in Guantanamo Bay then he did some stupid stuff and now he is trying to get into hollywood with his story called "son of al-Qaeda" and then comes Omar Khadr (20 or 21) and then is the last bro who was fighing with his dad in Afghanistan and his dad was killed. this brother somehow did not die but unfortunately he is on wheelchair for the rest of his life. he has spinal cord damage (i read in Macleans that he crawls around the house); he is probably about 18 or something. he came to canada for treatment to his body and he currently still lives in toronto with his mother and two sisters

[al-muslimah]

Wow!! i fell so sorry for them.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

The question is- what crime did he commit? It only says he killed a US soldier. If the soldier didn't want to die, he should not have gone to war. It is a war. You either kill or be killed.

If he killed the us soldier out of combat i.e not in a warzone/battlefield, this would be a crime. If it was comitted in the US, it would be counted as treason. So if these conditions are true, he should serve his punishment - that is the law.

p.s; I condemn gitmo every chance I get.

[wilberhum]

Wow!! i fell so sorry for them.

Me to, killers like them are sick.

[MTAFFI]

May Allah protect him and his brothers, the other prisoners in Guantanomo.Ameen.
Man I really like their family.True muslims.

WOW... kind of ironic isnt it, half his family is dead, another ran off to hollywood (which is chalk full of the Kuffar) one is held in a prison and one is confined to a wheel chair..... maybe there is a reason Allah is obviously not protecting this family.

[MTAFFI]

True muslims.

Arent true muslims only supposed to engage in war when it is deemed necessary by one of the religious leaders? I dont think true Muslims are even fighting in these countries except maybe Palestine.

[Chechnya]

indeed, and now being as good of a soldier as those who captured him he is a prisoner, really why should we even give him a trial, why not simply saw his head off with a dull knife?

people have already died and ben tortured in US custody in bagram, abu ghraib etc. so it wouldnt surprise me

but when its US soldiers that are dying, its all so different :(

[MTAFFI]

people have already died and ben tortured in US custody in bagram, abu ghraib etc. so it wouldnt surprise me

but when its US soldiers that are dying, its all so different :(

Different to who? Not to me it isnt, a loss of life is simply a loss of life, I just happen to root for a different team than you do, so where I cheer when a taliban or al qaeda operative is killed you may boo at it and vice versa.

Personally I wouldnt see any problem with sawing this mans head off, hey if the enemy likes to play that game why not right?

It seems you may be the one who thinks it is "all so different", when a Taliban or AQI fighter is captured and tortured you seem to have a problem with it, whereas when an innocent contractor (Nick Berg for ex.) is captured and beheaded you lay silent or you are quick to play the tit for tat game, does that somehow make one more right to you? When innocent Iraqis or Afghanis are captured, beaten, and executed and left for the buzzards you say nothing and never have anything but praise for their perpetrators, but the instant a bystander is killed in cross fire by a US troop you are all to quick to condemn.

Death is a part of war, so is torture, so is looting, so is raping and so is every other horrible thing imaginable. I condemn it when I see it happen because one would like to think we are more civilized but the fact is we are not and probably will forever lack the capacity to be... Sad.

[Cognescenti]

people have already died and ben tortured in US custody in bagram, abu ghraib etc. so it wouldnt surprise me

but when its US soldiers that are dying, its all so different :(

Dood..you seem to have missed a salient point. He wasn't a soldier. He wasn't protecting grandma's village and the lone family mule. He is Canadian! He was a trained (and presumably) willing member of a stateless international terror organization which had just destroyed 2 very big buildings and incinerated nearly 3,000 busboys, janitors, firefighters and stockbrokers whose only crime was living in New York. He traveled half way around the world to join the organization.

He took up a weapon and was captured while actively fighting. Those who captured him had two choices ...kill him or take him prisoner. That he is still alive has to at least make you wonder. Wouldn't simply putting a bullet in his head have been easier? After all, isn't that what the Russians would have done? How many Chechen prisoners are captured on the battlefield? How many US prisoners are in AQI's hands? What do you expect the US to do with him now?

[Chechnya]

Different to who? Not to me it isnt, a loss of life is simply a loss of life, I just happen to root for a different team than you do, so where I cheer when a taliban or al qaeda operative is killed you may boo at it and vice versa.

Personally I wouldnt see any problem with sawing this mans head off, hey if the enemy likes to play that game why not right?

It seems you may be the one who thinks it is "all so different", when a Taliban or AQI fighter is captured and tortured you seem to have a problem with it, whereas when an innocent contractor (Nick Berg for ex.) is captured and beheaded you lay silent or you are quick to play the tit for tat game, does that somehow make one more right to you? When innocent Iraqis or Afghanis are captured, beaten, and executed and left for the buzzards you say nothing and never have anything but praise for their perpetrators, but the instant a bystander is killed in cross fire by a US troop you are all to quick to condemn.

Death is a part of war, so is torture, so is looting, so is raping and so is every other horrible thing imaginable. I condemn it when I see it happen because one would like to think we are more civilized but the fact is we are not and probably will forever lack the capacity to be... Sad.

i dont think you dhould attribute to me what you hav eheard from others firws of all - i dont agree with the killing of innocent iraqis or afghans or chechns so dont put words into my mouth

i agree with your last paragraph, you have conducted yourself in an uncivilised manner in this war and in almost every war you have fought - and so have the opposition in most current wars, afghanistan, iraq etc. (im not gonna add chechnya to this list since it is one of the governments in my opinion that have fought their war in the most humane way and closest to the way of the prophet (saw) - they should be the models for the afghan and iraqi resistance)

[Chechnya]

Dood..you seem to have missed a salient point. He wasn't a soldier. He wasn't protecting grandma's village and the lone family mule. He is Canadian! He was a trained (and presumably) willing member of a stateless international terror organization which had just destroyed 2 very big buildings and incinerated nearly 3,000 busboys, janitors, firefighters and stockbrokers whose only crime was living in New York. He traveled half way around the world to join the organization.

He took up a weapon and was captured while actively fighting. Those who captured him had two choices ...kill him or take him prisoner. That he is still alive has to at least make you wonder. Wouldn't simply putting a bullet in his head have been easier? After all, isn't that what the Russians would have done? How many Chechen prisoners are captured on the battlefield? How many US prisoners are in AQI's hands? What do you expect the US to do with him now

the US claims to believe in human rights so treat him as a prisoner - dont torture him, try him and then if possible convict him or release him

if the US actually lived up to its grand words like human rights, freedom and so on there would be a great deal less hatred for it

[wilberhum]

Chechnya,
Well finally a point of agreement.

Peace
Wilber

[Cognescenti]

the US claims to believe in human rights so treat him as a prisoner - dont torture him, try him and then if possible convict him or release him

Indeed...and that is exactly what is happening to him. There is no credible evidence of torture in his case.

if the US actually lived up to its grand words like human rights, freedom and so on there would be a great deal less hatred for it

No doubt that Abu Ghraib was a serious embarrassment but if you think that is the only grievance with the US then you have blinders on. This list goes on and on...Israel..US troops in the Middle East...Iraq...Afghanistan...support for Musharraf...support for Egypt....the House of Saud....Somalia...the Philippines...the Pope...Hollywood....Bush...Cheney....American oil companies.....24.....Nike shoes with alleged defamatory imprints on the sole....Jerry Fallwell....tidal waves in the Indian Ocean.....secret plots with the Polio vaccine....yada yada yada.

It seems that nothing short of a divine intervention and the cataclysmic destruction of 300,000,000 million people will make some people happy.

[Chechnya]

Indeed...and that is exactly what is happening to him. There is no credible evidence of torture in his case.

its not just about him - tho some prevoious posts suggest that he was beaten severly several times and lost an eye - inshallah the sister can confirm that with a source

No doubt that Abu Ghraib was a serious embarrassment but if you think that is the only grievance with the US then you have blinders on. This list goes on and on...Israel..US troops in the Middle East...Iraq...Afghanistan...support for Musharraf...support for Egypt....the House of Saud....Somalia...the Philippines...the Pope...Hollywood....Bush...Cheney....American oil companies.....24.....Nike shoes with alleged defamatory imprints on the sole....Jerry Fallwell....tidal waves in the Indian Ocean.....secret plots with the Polio vaccine....yada yada yada.

It seems that nothing short of a divine intervention and the cataclysmic destruction of 300,000,000 million people will make some people happy.

at the risk of agrreing with osama bin laden, i think he summed up the muslim anger at the US quite well

it was US intervention/occupation in muslim lands
US support for Israel
US support form corrupt regimes in the Mid-East
US troops in the holy land

in my opinion all legitimate concerns

[Chechnya]

Chechnya,
Well finally a point of agreement.

Peace
Wilber

which one wilbur?

was it the one about the Chechen egoverment being a role model for how to conduct a conflict? i hope so :D

[wilberhum]

which one wilbur?

was it the one about the Chechen egoverment being a role model for how to conduct a conflict? i hope so :D

Na, I don't support your child killers.

convict him or release him

Him and every one else.

[al-muslimah]

Chechen government?role model??????????????? YEAH RIGHT.i can't believe a chechen is saying this are you a chechen?
The mujaahideen of chechnya like Commander Khattab are true role models for chechens or Shamil Basyaev(RA)

[al-muslimah]

Arent true muslims only supposed to engage in war when it is deemed necessary by one of the religious leaders? I dont think true Muslims are even fighting in these countries except maybe Palestine.---by MTAAFI
Um............NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Chechnya]

Chechen government?role model??????????????? YEAH RIGHT.i can't believe a chechen is saying this are you a chechen?
The mujaahideen of chechnya like Commander Khattab are true role models for chechens or Shamil Basyaev(RA)

the mujahideen of chechnya are almost all from the chechen government - what exactly is your problem here? :hmm:

[al-muslimah]

I thought you were refering to the ones that work for the russian government. Sorry.

[Cognescenti]

its not just about him - tho some prevoious posts suggest that he was beaten severly several times and lost an eye - inshallah the sister can confirm that with a source

His dad was killed, his brother was paralyzed and the young innocent was throwing fragmentation grenades about. He allegedly killed an American soldier. Do you think it is possible his eye might have been injured in the fight? ....Naaah

at the risk of agrreing with osama bin laden, i think he summed up the muslim anger at the US quite well

it was US intervention/occupation in muslim lands
US support for Israel
US support form corrupt regimes in the Mid-East
US troops in the holy land

in my opinion all legitimate concerns

Exactly which Muslim land was "occupied" by the US before 9-11....the NATO mission to protect the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo perhaps???

Support for Israel isn't going away so it looks liek you guys will have to get used to it or we are all going to have to kill each other.

Egypt is corrupt..it is only supported to stop Arabs and Jews from killing each other in large numbers again.

The House of Saud is not perfect either. OBL in charge would be worse for just about everyone in the world

Are there any US troops in Saudi anymore??? I dont think so. They wouldn't have been there at all if the Arab League had been able to solve the Iraq/Kuwait dispute.

The whole thing is stupid. If you want to get rid of Israel go ahead and try...just quit whining to us when they kick your ass again. Ditto the Saudis. Let OBL take it to them. They are big boys.

The whole thing is just stupid.

[ayesha309]

His dad was killed, his brother was paralyzed and the young innocent was throwing fragmentation grenades about. He allegedly killed an American soldier. Do you think it is possible his eye might have been injured in the fight? ....Naaah

do you think people in Guantanamo Bay are not tortured??? where do u live???
here is some an account of Abdurrahman Khadr (Omar Khadr's older brother) who talks about his experience in Guantnamo Bay:

He [Abdur Rahman] was taken to the Bagram airbase near Kabul where the Americans had built a processing center for suspected al-Qaeda captives. There he began what he calls the longest and most painful ordeal of his life. He says he had no idea what he was getting into.

"They took off my clothes and everything. And they started taking pictures of me. Pictures, of my face and then pictures of my private parts, like my back, you know, my penis, taking pictures of every part of my body.

"They check your, your, you know, your anus. They put their fingers inside to check it out… All of that is a humiliation to any person. They put me in the orange suit and then they put me on the ground: hands, legs, everything cuffed and my face covered. I was kept on the ground, on the concrete with nothing but that orange suit for twenty-four hours.


Baghram
"I stayed in Baghram for ten days and then they took us, they showered us, they put us in new orange suits. The cuffed us up - hands, legs - to the stomach and they put us in a room. They had us sit cross-legged on our ass for eight to nine hours.

"You could not move. You could not move your back, so you couldn't bend or straighten out. If you moved they'd hit you or they'd push you. After that, they took us to the plane. They tied us up in the plane, cuffed us up and everything in the plane."

The trip to Cuba would last more than 15 hours. By the time the aircraft landed, Abdurahman says he was a broken man.

"There was points, you know, in my heart, I just wished to God that one of these MPs would go crazy and then shoot me. Just get up and shoot me. I was so depressed. I was so sick of anything. It was the only time in my life that I really wished for a bullet."

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kh...dafamily7.html

and here is a site where you can get info on Omar Khadr:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/khadr/omar-khadr.html

have you not seen the movie "Road to Guantanamo"; watch it, maybe you'll learn something
perhaps you can also watch some documentaries about the tortures in Guantanamo; CBC has some good ones

here is a lil something about the three men in the movie "Road to Guantanamo"

Three of the men later said they had been systematically abused while in Camp Delta. Their lawyers prepared a 115-page report based on their allegations that they were beaten, injected with drugs, deprived of sleep, hooded, and subjected to body cavity searches, and sexual and religious humiliations.

Source: http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/guantanamo/

[Chechnya]

:rolleyes:

His dad was killed, his brother was paralyzed and the young innocent was throwing fragmentation grenades about. He allegedly killed an American soldier. Do you think it is possible his eye might have been injured in the fight? ....Naaah

why not wait to see if the sister can provide a source - why try to make up a story?

Exactly which Muslim land was "occupied" by the US before 9-11....the NATO mission to protect the Bosnian Muslims and the Muslims of Kosovo perhaps???

US troops on the holy lands was worse than an occupation to many - apart from that the US either killed muslims in or had troops in Lebanon, Somalia, Sudan - and after 9-11 apart form the obvious Afghanistan and Iraq, you can add dead muslims by US forces in Pakistan, once again in Somalia, Yemen.

Add to that the slaughter of Palestinians - a large percentage women and children - by US weapons and you being to understand why the US isnt the most loved goverment in the Muslim world.

Support for Israel isn't going away so it looks liek you guys will have to get used to it or we are all going to have to kill each other

well we better get used to unending war then because until israel ceases to exist as a state, i dont see this war ending.

Egypt is corrupt..it is only supported to stop Arabs and Jews from killing each other in large numbers again.

The House of Saud is not perfect either. OBL in charge would be worse for just about everyone in the world

i suppose democracy doesnt matter when you have your own poodle in power :nervous:

Are there any US troops in Saudi anymore??? I dont think so. They wouldn't have been there at all if the Arab League had been able to solve the Iraq/Kuwait dispute.

unfortunatly foryou al-qaeda see the us withdrawal after 9-11 as one of the successes of their attack

The whole thing is stupid. If you want to get rid of Israel go ahead and try...just quit whining to us when they kick your ass again. Ditto the Saudis. Let OBL take it to them. They are big boys.

i agree if arab nationalists try to take on israel - like they have tried before - they most likely will get their backsides kicked and probably deserve it too , not much worse than an arab nationalist

[Chechnya]

I thought you were refering to the ones that work for the russian government. Sorry.

well not everyone that works for the pro-moscow goverment is bad

but in general i am refering to the chechen goverment - unfortunately the two people you mentioned were not in the goverment - shamil basayev was until he got kicked out

[ayesha309]

His dad was killed, his brother was paralyzed and the young innocent was throwing fragmentation grenades about. He allegedly killed an American soldier. Do you think it is possible his eye might have been injured in the fight? ....Naaah

his left eye was injured during the fight but becuase it was not treated in Guantanamo Bay, he lost his left eye sight; his right eye has been blurred in Guantanamo Bay and according to this article and i believe other sources that i have read or heard, he has also been shot in Guantanamo

here are some of the other tortures that he is experiencing:

Reported abuses to which Khadr has been subjected include:
1. not informed of his rights;
2. forced to provide involuntary statements;
3. short shackled -- wrists and ankles handcuffed together and the cuffs bolted to the floor;
4. forced to sit, during interrogation, on an extremely cold floor;
5. kept in isolation for a month at ‘refrigerator’ temperatures, (referred to in Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s memo as ‘manipulation of the environment’10;
6. his body dragged back and forth, while short shackled, through the urine so as to clean the floor with his body;
7. forced to perform painful exercises while short shackled;
8. repeatedly lifted and dropped while short shackled as a punishment for ‘poor performance’;
9. threatened with forced nakedness;
10. threatened with sexual violence;
11. forced to urinate on himself while in stress positions;
12. refused the opportunity to say prayers;
13. detained illegally and illegally held incommunicado, except for the November 2004 visit from a lawyer;
14. held in a cell that is ‘freezing cold’ 24 hours a day that Khadr says is causing shortness of breath and the sensation of not being able to get enough oxygen; and
15. kept in solitary confinement.
16. exposed to continuous electric light in his cell.
17. forced into stress positions for periods of hours, e.g., forced to lie on his stomach with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back;
18. he has found partially dissolved tablets and/or powder at the bottom of a glass given him by his captors. He says the pills produce various effects -sleepiness, dizziness, alertness11.

Rhuhel Ahmed, previously imprisoned one cell away from Khadr’s cell recollects that Khadr was also denied medical attention
“…the same thing also, we are aware, happened to a young Canadian man, Omar Khadr, who was aged 17 when we left. He had been shot three times at point blank range and his lung punctured and had shrapnel in one eye and a cataract in the other. They would not operate on him. He was told that was because he would not cooperate. We were told one time when he was in isolation he was on the floor very badly ill. The guards called the medics and they said they couldn’t see him because the interrogators had refused to let them. We don’t know what happened to him (he had had some sort of operation when he was still in Afghanistan but he was in constant pain in Guantánamo and still undoubtedly is, and they would not give him pain killers.”12

Khadr suffers from depression, persistent body pain, loss of vision in his left eye, blurred vision in his right eye, shortness of breath, the sensation of being unable to get enough oxygen and a ‘significant mental disorder’ attributed to his treatment during detention. He has difficulty breathing and stomach problems which he attributes to the food..13.

the report of Dr. Eric Trupin:
“The symptoms O.K. [Omar Khadr] exhibits indicate a high probability that he suffers from a significant mental disorder, including but not limited to post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. In addition he appears to be having both delusions and hallucinations. Post-Traumatic stress disorder results from exposure to an extreme traumatic stressor involving direct personal experience of an event that involves actual or threatened death or serious injury, or other threat to one’s physical integrity.….Torture and incarceration as a prisoner of war or in a concentration camp are examples of events that could lead to the development of post-traumatic stress disorder. If left untreated, post-traumatic stress disorder, particularly in juveniles, may cause irreparable damage. It is my opinion, to a reasonable scientific certainty, that O.K.’s continued subjection to the threat of physical and mental abuse place him a significant risk for future psychiatric deterioration which may include irreversible psychiatric symptoms and disorder…In my professional opinion, O.K.’s symptoms are consistent with those exhibited by victims of torture and abuse…In my professional opinion, O.K. is at a moderate to high risk for suicide.”14

Source: http://www.nightslantern.ca/law/omarkhadr.html

[MTAFFI]

Arent true muslims only supposed to engage in war when it is deemed necessary by one of the religious leaders? I dont think true Muslims are even fighting in these countries except maybe Palestine.---by MTAAFI
Um............NO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that a NO to my assertation that Muslims are only to go to war when deemed necessary by a religious leader?

[MTAFFI]

his left eye was injured during the fight but becuase it was not treated in Guantanamo Bay, he lost his left eye sight; his right eye has been blurred in Guantanamo Bay and according to this article and i believe other sources that i have read or heard, he has also been shot in Guantanamo

here are some of the other tortures that he is experiencing:

Source: http://www.nightslantern.ca/law/omarkhadr.html

I really dont see anything there that would constitute torture, maybe punishment or pressure tactics but not torture. To me torture would be getting toes or fingers cut off or other extremites, or perhaps watch the movie Hostel, that will give you an idea of torture.

[Keltoi]

1. not informed of his rights;
2. forced to provide involuntary statements;
3. short shackled -- wrists and ankles handcuffed together and the cuffs bolted to the floor;
4. forced to sit, during interrogation, on an extremely cold floor;
5. kept in isolation for a month at ‘refrigerator’ temperatures, (referred to in Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s memo as ‘manipulation of the environment’10;
6. his body dragged back and forth, while short shackled, through the urine so as to clean the floor with his body;
7. forced to perform painful exercises while short shackled;
8. repeatedly lifted and dropped while short shackled as a punishment for ‘poor performance’;
9. threatened with forced nakedness;
10. threatened with sexual violence;
11. forced to urinate on himself while in stress positions;
12. refused the opportunity to say prayers;
13. detained illegally and illegally held incommunicado, except for the November 2004 visit from a lawyer;
14. held in a cell that is ‘freezing cold’ 24 hours a day that Khadr says is causing shortness of breath and the sensation of not being able to get enough oxygen; and
15. kept in solitary confinement.
16. exposed to continuous electric light in his cell.
17. forced into stress positions for periods of hours, e.g., forced to lie on his stomach with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back;
18. he has found partially dissolved tablets and/or powder at the bottom of a glass given him by his captors. He says the pills produce various effects -sleepiness, dizziness, alertness11.

Nothing on there is torture from my point of view. Uncomfortable? Of course. I was at least hoping to see some waterboarding. The majority of those can be found in any American prison.

[al-muslimah]

May Allah curse them for this.

[Cognescenti]

May Allah curse them for this.

Purely in the interests of world peace and interfaith harmony, of course.

[Muezzin]

I really dont see anything there that would constitute torture, maybe punishment or pressure tactics but not torture. To me torture would be getting toes or fingers cut off or other extremites, or perhaps watch the movie Hostel, that will give you an idea of torture.

torture

• noun 1 the infliction of severe pain as a punishment or a forcible means of persuasion. 2 great suffering or anxiety.

• verb subject to torture.

— DERIVATIVES torturer noun.

— ORIGIN Latin tortura ‘twisting, torment’, from torquere ‘to twist’.

Oxford Dictionary

water torture

• noun a form of torture in which the victim is exposed to the incessant dripping of water on the head or to the sound of dripping.

Oxford Dictionary Definition

'Waterboarding is torture - I did it myself,' says US advisor - Independent Online Edition

If merely dripping water on someone's head constitutes torture, I fail to see how pouring water over their face such that they are forced to inhale it does not.

Then again, this is not really on topic in the first place. I hope such practices were not inflicted upon the (then) boy.

[Keltoi]

lol..the sound of dripping water is torture? That pretty much sums up the problem right there.

[ayesha309]

Keltoi I have a question for you, If somebody placed you in freezing cold temperatures for over 24 hours without proper attire, forced you to urniate on yourself, threteaned you with sexual violence, made you suffer a bad eye vision on one eye, and made you blind from the other, shot at you three times, you wouldn't call it torture????
if you were going through such an atrocity, and people said it is not "torture" how would you feel?
wot exactly is torture to you?? do you not have any empathy. Lack of emaphty may create a dangerous individual.

[snakelegs]

1. not informed of his rights;
2. forced to provide involuntary statements;
3. short shackled -- wrists and ankles handcuffed together and the cuffs bolted to the floor;
4. forced to sit, during interrogation, on an extremely cold floor;
5. kept in isolation for a month at ‘refrigerator’ temperatures, (referred to in Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld’s memo as ‘manipulation of the environment’10;
6. his body dragged back and forth, while short shackled, through the urine so as to clean the floor with his body;
7. forced to perform painful exercises while short shackled;
8. repeatedly lifted and dropped while short shackled as a punishment for ‘poor performance’;
9. threatened with forced nakedness;
10. threatened with sexual violence;
11. forced to urinate on himself while in stress positions;
12. refused the opportunity to say prayers;
13. detained illegally and illegally held incommunicado, except for the November 2004 visit from a lawyer;
14. held in a cell that is ‘freezing cold’ 24 hours a day that Khadr says is causing shortness of breath and the sensation of not being able to get enough oxygen; and
15. kept in solitary confinement.
16. exposed to continuous electric light in his cell.
17. forced into stress positions for periods of hours, e.g., forced to lie on his stomach with his hands and feet cuffed together behind his back;
18. he has found partially dissolved tablets and/or powder at the bottom of a glass given him by his captors. He says the pills produce various effects -sleepiness, dizziness, alertness11.

Nothing on there is torture from my point of view. Uncomfortable? Of course. I was at least hoping to see some waterboarding. The majority of those can be found in any American prison.

wow

[Chechnya]

Keltoi I have a question for you, If somebody placed you in freezing cold temperatures for over 24 hours without proper attire, forced you to urniate on yourself, threteaned you with sexual violence, made you suffer a bad eye vision on one eye, and made you blind from the other, shot at you three times, you wouldn't call it torture????
if you were going through such an atrocity, and people said it is not "torture" how would you feel?
wot exactly is torture to you?? do you not have any empathy. Lack of emaphty may create a dangerous individual.

good point

i have no doubt that the advocates of this on this forum would be screaming like a bunch of pregnant women had any of this treatment been directed at them :cry:

but its fine if it happens to some random muslim fella who may or may not be innocent

[ayesha309]

good point

i have no doubt that the advocates of this on this forum would be screaming like a bunch of pregnant women had any of this treatment been directed at them :cry:

but its fine if it happens to some random muslim fella who may or may not be innocent

i totally agree with you brother

[al-muslimah]

Is that a NO to my assertation that Muslims are only to go to war when deemed necessary by a religious leader?---MTAFFI

YES that is it.Its an obligation upon us.Muslims are suppose to fight jihaad until ALlah's word is the highest , basically it will continue till judgment day specifically, when Ya'j and Ma'juj (gog and magog) come out. Originally jihad was a collective duty ( fard kifayah) but today it has become an individual duty(fard ayn) even for the women without her mahram's permission.

[snakelegs]

when are you leaving?

[Keltoi]

Keltoi I have a question for you, If somebody placed you in freezing cold temperatures for over 24 hours without proper attire, forced you to urniate on yourself, threteaned you with sexual violence, made you suffer a bad eye vision on one eye, and made you blind from the other, shot at you three times, you wouldn't call it torture????
if you were going through such an atrocity, and people said it is not "torture" how would you feel?
wot exactly is torture to you?? do you not have any empathy. Lack of emaphty may create a dangerous individual.

So he was cold, somebody made a rude sexual comment at him, didn't take him to the bathroom, and didn't give him "proper" treatment for an eye injury he sustained while he attempted to "martyr" himself...no, I do not consider that torture. I consider that being captured on a battlefield by the people you tried to kill. Perhaps those who captured him should have blown his brains out on the battlefield...which would have happened if the situation was reversed.

This guy is a captured enemy. He is not going to be treated like royalty. He isn't going to enjoy it. He isn't going to wake up to breakfast-in-bed with access to Nintendo. He made his bed and now he is sleeping in it...so to speak. If he wanted to be an enemy of the United States, which he obviously did, his wish has now come true. Cry me a river.

That being said, I do not support torture. However, my definition of torture is obviously something quite different than many people who are posting on this thread.

[Keltoi]

good point

i have no doubt that the advocates of this on this forum would be screaming like a bunch of pregnant women had any of this treatment been directed at them :cry:

but its fine if it happens to some random muslim fella who may or may not be innocent

If I am captured by an enemy I would expect much worse than cold temperatures and lack of bathroom breaks. More to the point, if I was captured by these noble "mujahideen" I would expect to be paraded in front of a cheap video camera with my hands tied behind my back waiting for a slow and sloppy beheading...but we don't want to talk about that do we?

[جوري]

better a sloppy beheading than having dogs eat your genitals for the camera ey?

[Keltoi]

better a sloppy beheading than having dogs eat your genitals for the camera ey?

...and when was this supposedly to have happened? Oh yes, the pictures of the dog barking at naked guys. Just FYI, but nobody had their genitals eaten. The truth is bad enough without adding drama.

[جوري]

...and when was this supposedly to have happened? Oh yes, the pictures of the dog barking at naked guys. Just FYI, but nobody had their genitals eaten. The truth is bad enough without adding drama.

here you go a pic or two or three is always worth a thousand words?

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004...tos11jun04.htm

[snakelegs]

That being said, I do not support torture. However, my definition of torture is obviously something quite different than many people who are posting on this thread.

call me naive. i expect better of my country. :(

[Keltoi]

here you go a pic or two or three is always worth a thousand words?

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004...tos11jun04.htm

Yes, I've seen all the available pics of Abu Ghraib abuses. No dogs eating genitalia however...as I said, the truth is bad enough without adding drama.

[Keltoi]

call me naive. i expect better of my country. :(

What is it you expect exactly? This is a serious question.

[snakelegs]

due process. humane treatment. a standard of decency. respect for human rights.
i do not expect torture, human rights violations, shutting people away for years with no charges, "extraordinary renditions", kidnappings, conempt for law etc etc.
we champion human rights abroad - why don't we practice it?

[جوري]

Yes, I've seen all the available pics of Abu Ghraib abuses. No dogs eating genitalia however...as I said, the truth is bad enough without adding drama.

pls spare me the sanctimonious bull...I am not in the mood... chapter 12, 14,17, 34, 38, 43, 84 in every international human rights law and Geneva convention laws, united nations laws have all been violated by this admin, but you don't want drama.. what can I say, don't turn on the TV or read newspapers that tell you different, then go burry your head in the sand!...
Don't want to talk about abuse and torture so mild by 'your standards' don't bring it up then..you are bound to read and see things you ain't gonna like!

I would be more than happy discussing a 'non-clean beheading'.. and why you should expect them frequently by random snipers on the streets of baghdad, or anywhere else filth (your 'brave' boys) are sent!!!!

cheers!

[Keltoi]

due process. humane treatment. a standard of decency. respect for human rights.
i do not expect torture, human rights violations, shutting people away for years with no charges, "extraordinary renditions", kidnappings, conempt for law etc etc.
we champion human rights abroad - why don't we practice it?

Okay, fair enough. I actually agree with you for the most part. The question is whether "enemy combatants" can be held without charges the same as other prisoners of war who are actually members of a foreign military. I for one believe they should be, and it appears as if the Supreme Court agrees.

On the issue of human rights abuses, I think the poster child for that is Abu Ghraib. No worthwhile American can look at those photos without feeling sick inside. That is what we want to avoid at all costs. Nothing I have read or seen points to anything like Abu Ghraib at Gitmo. The International Red Cross has access, which wasn't the case at Abu Ghraib.

[Keltoi]

pls spare me the sanctimonious bull...I am not in the mood... chapter 12, 14,17, 34, 38, 43, 84 in every international human rights law and Geneva convention laws, united nations laws have all been violated by this admin, but you don't want drama.. what can I say, don't turn on the TV or read newspapers that tell you different, then go burry your head in the sand!...
Don't want to talk about abuse and torture so mild by 'your standards' don't bring it up then..you are bound to read and see things you ain't gonna like!

I would be more than happy discussing a 'non-clean beheading'.. and why you should expect them frequently by random snipers on the streets of baghdad, or anywhere else filth (your 'brave' boys) are sent!!!!

cheers!

sanctimonious? You brought up dogs eating genitalia, which didn't happen. You were adding false information to an otherwise horrible situation which didn't require exaggerations to understand the awful reality. There was torture at Abu Ghraib, and nobody is denying that. This thread is about Gitmo and the list of things this guy was supposedly put through. If you want to talk about Abu Ghraib start another thread and I will be happy to denounce it along with everyone else.

As for the rest...it isn't worth a reply.

[جوري]

sanctimonious? You brought up dogs eating genitalia, which didn't happen. You were adding false information to an otherwise horrible situation which didn't require exaggerations to understand the awful reality. There was torture at Abu Ghraib, and nobody is denying that. This thread is about Gitmo and the list of things this guy was supposedly put through. If you want to talk about Abu Ghraib start another thread and I will be happy to denounce it along with everyone else.

As for the rest...it isn't worth a reply.

You sir, have no clue of half the travesties that went on there, those which in fact have led to death!! You are certainly no expert on what goes on in gitmo, lest you were a prisoner or a guard...if you are so naïve to believe that you read is the whole truth, you are bound to have a clash of opinions every so often ..

want to discuss gitmo.. perhaps you should stay on gitmo and not derail topics to beheadings, because abu gharib and others less famous barbarities are bound to come up!
Beheadings don't happen just because people felt like raping, murdering and pillaging.. more often than not it is quite deserved.. as you see it fit to keep innocent people w/out a trial, others see it fit to off with some sobs heads!

That is the reality of the world you live in...not worth a reply then by all means ignore it and focus your attention where it might actually indue a point!

peace!

[islamirama]

here you go a pic or two or three is always worth a thousand words?

http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004...tos11jun04.htm

may Allah bring His wrath upon these kuffars and punishment them so severely like never done on any other nation before. Inshallah may they all perish in great agony and torment, the very first of them and the very last of them.

Ameen!

[جوري]

may Allah bring His wrath upon these kuffars and punishment them so severely like never done on any other nation before. Inshallah may they all perish in great agony and torment, the very first of them and the very last of them.

Ameen!

I can't look at these pictures w/out having my blood absolutely boil. I can't imagine any 'human being' relishing the torture of another in such a manner.. but I believe 'human' is the operative word here and these *******s are less than animals.

what kills me most, is I know they have done the same in women's prisons... and no one is protecting our sisters from within or without..

7asbona Allah wani3ma alwakeel..
our muslims sisters are tortured and raped and we watch and do nothing, when there was a time if someone so much as lifted a woman's skirt a whole army would come to her honor... where are the soldiers of Allah?

:w:
p.s.. I really hate world's affair, wish it would shut down, I can't ever be here w/out getting a massive stress migraine!

[Cognescenti]

...
Beheadings don't happen just because people felt like raping, murdering and pillaging.. more often than not it is quite deserved.. as you see it fit to keep innocent people w/out a trial, others see it fit to off with some sobs heads!
....

Nice. Your ideological slip is showing, sis.

[Cognescenti]

may Allah bring His wrath upon these kuffars and punishment them so severely like never done on any other nation before. Inshallah may they all perish in great agony and torment, the very first of them and the very last of them.

Ameen!

Back at you, pal.

[جوري]

repeat!

[جوري]

Nice. Your ideological slip is showing, sis.

Don't you have a post or two to report?

I ain't your sis..I am befouled just reading your crap so take a hike and stop quoting me, I am sure there is a bar open some where for you to drown your blues!

[Cognescenti]

... where are the soldiers of Allah?....
!

They are killing each other, chiefly. Taliban sawing off the heads of Afghan policemen. AQI killing Sunni sheiks. Sunnis striking backa at AQI. Sunnis killing Shia. Shia killing Sunni. Saudi AQI suicide bombers killing children, the Kurds etc etc. Hamas killing whoever theya re killign these days. Syrians killing Lebanese politicians. PKK killing Turks. Turks killing the PKK. uggg.

[جوري]

They are killing each other, chiefly. Taliban sawing off the heads of Afghan policemen. AQI killing Sunni sheiks. Sunnis striking backa at AQI. Sunnis killing Shia. Shia killing Sunni. Saudi AQI suicide bombers killing children, the Kurds etc etc. Hamas killing whoever theya re killign these days. Syrians killing Lebanese politicians. PKK killing Turks. Turks killing the PKK. uggg.

too bad with all that harj and marj they missed you... just lucky I guess?

are you lonely or I should rather say unfrequented by any form of life? Can you tell when someone is addressing you or aimed at someone else?

moonshine is free and cheap, and might even increase your chances of being remotely interesting :sunny:

[Cognescenti]

Don't you have a post or two to report?

I ain't your sis..I am befouled just reading your crap so take a hike and stop quoting me, I am sure there is a bar open some where for you to drown your blues!

Must be your headache. I am sorry you don't feel well. Thanks for worrying about me, though. I have half my Christmas shopping done..got rid of the gopher in the front yard..two more days off. I am in a grrat mood, thanks.

[جوري]

Must be your headache. I am sorry you don't feel well. Thanks for worrying about me, though. I have half my Christmas shopping done..got rid of the gopher in the front yard..two more days off. I am in a grrat mood, thanks.

Shopping for yourself I see? that is a good tactic..people really dig it and it makes you seem more interesting.
chicks aren't turned on by that unabomber type with frank odor, exudes you so much here I can only imagine your place reeking?... thank God for HGTV ey? even your hut can be amazing..would offer you crab(p) cakes for the remodeling but I fear the irony will be lost...

[Woodrow]

Break time until I can sort through and see if any part of the thread is worth salvaging.