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islamirama
11-19-2007, 03:58 PM
America suffers an epidemic of suicides among traumatised army veterans


More American military veterans have been committing suicide than US soldiers have been dying in Iraq, it was claimed yesterday.


At least 6,256 US veterans took their lives in 2005, at an average of 17 a day, according to figures broadcast last night. Former servicemen are more than twice as likely than the rest of the population to commit suicide.
Such statistics compare to the total of 3,863 American military deaths in Iraq since the invasion in 2003 - an average of 2.4 a day, according to the website ICasualties.org.


The rate of suicides among veterans prompted claims that the US was suffering from a “mental health epidemic” – often linked to post-traumatic stress.




CBS News claimed that the figures represented the first attempt to conduct a nationwide count of veteran suicides. The tally was reached by collating suicide data from individual states for both veterans and the general population from 1995.


The suicide rate among Americans as a whole was 8.9 per 100,000, but the level among veterans was at least 18.7. That figure rose to a minimum of 22.9 among veterans aged 20 to 24 – almost four times the nonveteran average for people of the same age.


There are 25 million veterans in the United States, 1.6 million of whom served in Afghanistan and Iraq.


“Not everyone comes home from the war wounded, but the bottom line is nobody comes home unchanged,” said Paul Rieckhoff, a former Marine and founder of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans for America.


CBS quoted the father of a 23-year-old soldier who shot himself in 2005 as suggesting that the military was covering up the scale of the problem. “Nobody wants to tally it up in the form of a government total,” Mike Bowman said. “They don’t want the true numbers of casualties to really be known.”


Mr Bowman’s son, Tim, was an army reservist who patrolled one of the most dangerous places in Baghdad, known as Airport Road. “His eyes when he came back were just dead. The light wasn’t there anymore,” said his mother, Kim Bowman. Eight months later, on Thanksgiving Day, Tim committed suicide.


A separate study published last week shows that US military veterans make up one in four homeless people in America, even though they represent just 11 per cent of the general adult population, and younger soldiers are already trickling into shelters and soup kitchens after completing tours in Iraq and Afghanistan.


While it took roughly a decade for the lives of Vietnam veterans to unravel to the point that they started showing up among the homeless, at least 1,500 ex-servicemen from the present wars have already been identified.
The National Alliance to End Homelessness, based the findings of its report on numbers from Veterans Affairs and the Census Bureau. Data from 2005 estimated that 194,254 homeless people on any given night were veterans.
Daniel Akaka, the chairman of the Senate Veterans’ Affairs Committee, said: “For too many veterans, returning home from battle does not bring an end to conflict. There is no question that action is needed.”


The plight of US veterans is a matter of acute sensitivity for the Bush Administration which has set great store by standing up for – and support from – US troops. This year General Kevin Kiley, the US Army’s Surgeon General, was among senior military officials dismissed for his role in the mistreatment of wounded veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan.


Newspaper revelations about conditions at the Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington became a lightning rod for criticism of the war in general. The outpatient clinic was described as squalid and rat-infested; a maze of red tape left many outpatients – often with severe brain injuries – wandering the corridors without help.




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle2873622.ece
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Chechnya
11-20-2007, 12:50 AM
crazy yanks :ooh:
Reply

Abdul-Raouf
11-20-2007, 01:14 AM
Uh.. Poor decisions by the US soldiers...
both on the field (they kill innocents most often)
and off the field(they kill themselves).. :(
Reply

Zevallos
11-20-2007, 02:30 AM
:sl:
That is a horrid statement. While I do not agree with what the Bush
administration is doing we must understand that there is a difference
between leaders and soldiers.

We cannot say that soldiers deserve to suffer while leaders give an order
for imperialistic interest. True there are many soldiers who make many
Iraqis suffer but we cannot put them all in that general area.

At any rate, hearing this as a human being ills me.
War is a very ugly thing.
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Keltoi
11-20-2007, 02:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zevallos
:sl:
That is a horrid statement. While I do not agree with what the Bush
administration is doing we must understand that there is a difference
between leaders and soldiers.

We cannot say that soldiers deserve to suffer while leaders give an order
for imperialistic interest. True there are many soldiers who make many
Iraqis suffer but we cannot put them all in that general area.

At any rate, hearing this as a human being ills me.
War is a very ugly thing.
Indeed it is, and it is the ugliness of war, meaning the mental trauma, that many war veterans can't let go of. In many cases it destroys marriages and family relationships. From what I understand, in this particular war it is stress that tips to a breaking point. Not the stress of combat, but the stress of driving around or standing around all day waiting for a suicide bomb, car bomb, IED, etc.

Thankfully for the Iraqi people and those soldiers stationed there, the situation in Iraq has calmed considerably over the past few months. Hopefully this is a permanent trend and not a lull.
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al-muslimah
11-20-2007, 02:39 AM
By Keltoi--"Oh please..."

Oh yes............. sorry for the upseting news you probably thought those soliders would come home victorious .You wish.

Wal 'aqibatu lil mutaqeen!!!!!!
Reply

Keltoi
11-20-2007, 02:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al-muslimah
By Keltoi--"Oh please..."

Oh yes............. sorry for the upseting news you probably thought those soliders would come home victorious .You wish.

Wal 'aqibatu lil mutaqeen!!!!!!
Maybe someday you will realize that war is not a game.
Reply

al-muslimah
11-20-2007, 02:42 AM
By Keltoi-- "Thankfully for the Iraqi people and those soldiers stationed there, the situation in Iraq has calmed considerably over the past few months. Hopefully this is a permanent trend and not a lull. "

How?? by the murder of women and children by the so called peace-keeping force.They have done nothing to ease the situation but murder the Muslims.Laanahumullah.The mujahideen of Iraq are the ones who really ease the situation the people there love them for there bravery.They are indeed strong.unlike people.
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czgibson
11-20-2007, 03:37 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by al-muslimah
Hahahaha they are so scared of the mujahideen that instead of fighting like men they committ suicide!!!! Allahu Akbar for the mujahideen that shows they are getting stronger.Yuhoooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
You're laughing because people are committing suicide? That's pretty sick. I expect you're a kid who doesn't know any better. One day you'll grow up.

The statistics are horrifying, as are most of the statistics from this deeply immoral and unnecessary war. From the military angle, US and UK armies are currently overstretched and failing to bring in enough new recruits, so they might struggle to defend us if there was actually a necessary war to be fought in the future. The war in Iraq has had a devastating effect on huge numbers of people, most notably the people of Iraq themselves.

Peace
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zevallos
:sl:
That is a horrid statement. While I do not agree with what the Bush
administration is doing we must understand that there is a difference
between leaders and soldiers.

We cannot say that soldiers deserve to suffer while leaders give an order
for imperialistic interest. True there are many soldiers who make many
Iraqis suffer but we cannot put them all in that general area.
They don't even distinguish between soldiers and civilians as they indiscriminately bomb everyone, and you want to pick the "good" soldiers out of the bad ones? This is war, you don't pick good soldiers from bad soldiers. Even "Muslims" that fight along side the enemies of Islam are to be treated the same way (killed like the kuffars).

Tell these victims the soldiers are innocent why don't you?

http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor2.jpg

http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor1.jpg

Remember, you are NOT a true believer until you love for your brothers/sisters what you love for yourself. Put your family in those victim's place and then tell me how much sympathy you have for these barbarians.

format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


You're laughing because people are committing suicide? That's pretty sick. I expect you're a kid who doesn't know any better. One day you'll grow up.


Peace
She's laughing cause these so called macho soldier boys can't handle the pressure and tension of the war and the barbaric war crimes they committed so they go back home and kill their own families and commit suicide. That is their sad state and one they deserve for being where they are not wanted and oppressing a nation of people in order to steal their oil.
Reply

Jayda
11-20-2007, 03:47 PM
hola islamirama,

what do you think about the muslims who do the same things... do they also deserve this fate?

what about the argument that the war is unnecessary and everybody is just doing what they think they are supposed to... wouldn't it be better to look for a way to stop the fighting rather than for one side to obliterate the other at the cost of a generation?

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

tomtomsmom
11-20-2007, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
They don't even distinguish between soldiers and civilians as they indiscriminately bomb everyone, and you want to pick the "good" soldiers out of the bad ones? This is war, you don't pick good soldiers from bad soldiers. Even "Muslims" that fight along side the enemies of Islam are to be treated the same way (killed like the kuffars).

Tell these victims the soldiers are innocent why don't you?

http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor2.jpg

http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor1.jpg

Remember, you are NOT a true believer until you love for your brothers/sisters what you love for yourself. Put your family in those victim's place and then tell me how much sympathy you have for these barbarians.


The soldiers are doing what they are supposed to be doing..........following orders. Are the orders right.....HELL NO!!!! But that is their job. Are all of them good people, no. Are all of the muslims good people, no.



People being happy that others are committing suicide is wrong. If the tables were turned and someone posted that the Iraqis were committing suicide left and right there would be an uproar about it. This entire thread is disturbing.
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czgibson
11-20-2007, 03:59 PM
Greetings,

She's laughing cause these so called macho soldier boys can't handle the pressure and tension of the war and the barbaric war crimes they committed so they go back home and kill their own families and commit suicide. That is their sad state and one they deserve for being where they are not wanted and oppressing a nation of people in order to steal their oil.
I think the point you've continued to miss is that there's a difference between leaders and soldiers. The US army didn't want this war. The British army didn't want this war. The guys who babysit a (and I use this term in the strictest possible sense) retard in the white house did. They are the ones you should have an issue with.

Peace
Reply

Jayda
11-20-2007, 04:03 PM
hola,

i do not think following orders is ever an excuse for doing something immoral or ignoring the laws of God... especially when they are bad orders. but i see this on both sides of the conflict... everyone has their hands covered in blood... the idea that on both sides that they deserve vengeance only perpetuates the conflict and wishing hateful things toward each other only perpetuates the conflict. the only thing that seems to be winning the war is... the war.

the evil that brought it into being benefits from the destruction and loss of life, the war profiteers and weapons companies benefit from the money they recieve, mercenaries benefit from the money they recieve, bad people and cults of death benefit from the valuable experience and training they recieve from going to iraq and learning more efficient ways to kill people...

the war is winning very much...

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

Jayda
11-20-2007, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
She's laughing cause these so called macho soldier boys can't handle the pressure and tension of the war and the barbaric war crimes they committed so they go back home and kill their own families and commit suicide. That is their sad state and one they deserve for being where they are not wanted and oppressing a nation of people in order to steal their oil.
hola

that's one of the most evil things i have read here... i really hope you change your views...

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola islamirama,

what do you think about the muslims who do the same things... do they also deserve this fate?

what about the argument that the war is unnecessary and everybody is just doing what they think they are supposed to... wouldn't it be better to look for a way to stop the fighting rather than for one side to obliterate the other at the cost of a generation?

que Dios te bendiga

As you stated in another thread, over 1 million iraqis dead. I see only one side being obliterated. Any harm incurred on the invader's army (be it on duty or at home) is good news, because you don't feel sorry for the enemies when they murder and oppress your brothers like abu ghairb and rape your sisters like the female prison. When you're on the enemy side, doesn't matter if you got good or bad among you or your president is pulling the strings. Death of you will mean peace of me, so in order to bring peace to my people, i'll pray for death for your people (army) so there is none of them left to come invade my lands, rape and murder my family. And i'm sure you would feel the same if your land was under occupation, over 1 million of your people dead and mass rape and torture going on of your people on your land by the invaders/occupiers. Heartless and evil will be the one who doesn't feel the pain of his people but rather sympathizes with the invaders/occupiers instead, and this is true any nation of people.
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tomtomsmom
11-20-2007, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola,

i do not think following orders is ever an excuse for doing something immoral or ignoring the laws of God... especially when they are bad orders. but i see this on both sides of the conflict... everyone has their hands covered in blood... the idea that on both sides that they deserve vengeance only perpetuates the conflict and wishing hateful things toward each other only perpetuates the conflict. the only thing that seems to be winning the war is... the war.

the evil that brought it into being benefits from the destruction and loss of life, the war profiteers and weapons companies benefit from the money they recieve, mercenaries benefit from the money they recieve, bad people and cults of death benefit from the valuable experience and training they recieve from going to iraq and learning more efficient ways to kill people...

the war is winning very much...

que Dios te bendiga


Jayda, I am sure you know what happens to soldiers who go against a commanding officers direct orders. Self preservation is always going to trump what is immoral.


The only thing that seems to be winning the war....is the war.
That is one of the truest statements I have read in a long time. Thank you sister!
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Jayda
11-20-2007, 04:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
As you stated in another thread, over 1 million iraqis dead. I see only one side being obliterated. Any harm incurred on the invader's army (be it on duty or at home) is good news, because you don't feel sorry for the enemies when they murder and oppress your brothers like abu ghairb and rape your sisters like the female prison. When you're on the enemy side, doesn't matter if you got good or bad among you or your president is pulling the strings. Death of you will mean peace of me, so in order to bring peace to my people, i'll pray for death for your people (army) so there is none of them left to come invade my lands, rape and murder my family. And i'm sure you would feel the same if your land was under occupation, over 1 million of your people dead and mass rape and torture going on of your people on your land by the invaders/occupiers. Heartless and evil will be the one who doesn't feel the pain of his people but rather sympathizes with the invaders/occupiers instead, and this is true any nation of people.

...no you don't feel sorry for your enemies... i do, and many do. it is a matter of compassion. wars are not easy for anyone and the most important thing is to stop them in ways that do not justify the things that they represent.
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tomtomsmom
11-20-2007, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
As you stated in another thread, over 1 million iraqis dead. I see only one side being obliterated. Any harm incurred on the invader's army (be it on duty or at home) is good news, because you don't feel sorry for the enemies when they murder and oppress your brothers like abu ghairb and rape your sisters like the female prison. When you're on the enemy side, doesn't matter if you got good or bad among you or your president is pulling the strings. Death of you will mean peace of me, so in order to bring peace to my people, i'll pray for death for your people (army) so there is none of them left to come invade my lands, rape and murder my family. And i'm sure you would feel the same if your land was under occupation, over 1 million of your people dead and mass rape and torture going on of your people on your land by the invaders/occupiers. Heartless and evil will be the one who doesn't feel the pain of his people but rather sympathizes with the invaders/occupiers instead, and this is true any nation of people.


That just doesn't seem very Islamic to me.
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amille40
11-20-2007, 04:35 PM
As an American Muslim, i must say that some of what has been said in this thread horrifies me. I can completely understand hating this war....but to hate the american people and wish, and pray, for death to them?

One of my closest friends came back from Iraq in 2005 and killed himself less than a year later. He was shot and wounded trying to push a group of children inside a building when a skirmish broke out instead of taking cover himself to return fire.

Yes- there are american soldiers and civilians who are so far out of line in Iraq (blackwater comes to mind) But it appalls me to see these people generalized to encompass the entire american people. How do you feel when the uneducated american generalizes all muslims to be violent terrorists?

It saddens me to think that brothers and sisters are praying as I speak for the death of my people...
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Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 04:39 PM
Observe:

The figure for servicemen age 20-24 in the report was 22 per 100,000. The group of returning vets are overwhelmingly male.

The rate of suicide for the general population in the US for ages 20-24 is 13.9 per 100,000 but this is for both men and women.

Men commit suide at a rate 4x higher than women so they account for 80% of the general population figue on a denominator that is half the size (about half of 20-24 year olds in the US are men, of course). That is .80 x 13.9 x 2 which comes out to......wait for it........22 per 100,000


:okay:
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Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 04:46 PM
BTW...the rate of suicide for 80 year olds is about 6 times the rate for young adults. I suppose these are WWII vets reliving the Battle of the Bulge? :thumbs_do:thumbs_do

To all the America haters....keep looking....and be sure to bring it here so we can all see.
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islamirama
11-20-2007, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by amille40
As an American Muslim, i must say that some of what has been said in this thread horrifies me. I can completely understand hating this war....but to hate the american people and wish, and pray, for death to them?

One of my closest friends came back from Iraq in 2005 and killed himself less than a year later. He was shot and wounded trying to push a group of children inside a building when a skirmish broke out instead of taking cover himself to return fire.

Yes- there are american soldiers and civilians who are so far out of line in Iraq (blackwater comes to mind) But it appalls me to see these people generalized to encompass the entire american people. How do you feel when the uneducated american generalizes all muslims to be violent terrorists?

It saddens me to think that brothers and sisters are praying as I speak for the death of my people...
I do and will continue to pray for the death of any kuffar enemy that is in Muslim lands and murdering and raping my people. Prophet (saws) said your ummah is ONE ummah and your blood is ONE blood. Anyone who spills Muslim blood, spills my blood. Don't worry bro, there are millions of Muslims out there who are also praying for the destruction of the oppressors.

Oh and btw, it is permissible and allowed in islam to pray against your enemy and their destruction. Ask one of the mods to pull out an hadith of a man asking the prophet (saws) about this and he allowed it.

As for hating the american people, yea sure i hate the dumb and narrow minded bigots (we even got one or two on here). But that doesn't mean i pray for their death. I rather pray for their guidance to Islam and to open their eyes against their leaders before their land becomes like Iraq.

Dua: The Weapon of the Believer


format_quote Originally Posted by tomtomsmom

Any harm incurred on the invader's army (be it on duty or at home) is good news
i'll pray for death for your people (army)
That just doesn't seem very Islamic to me.
What's so un-islamic about that?

If their soldier dies on the field or kills himself at home, then its good news either way. That just means oneless oppressor to kill my people.

And what is wrong in praying against your enemy? don't tell me you'll be praising the army that invades your land and murders and rapes your people?
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Woodrow
11-20-2007, 05:24 PM
This is a topic that is very personal too me. Going back many years to a far away place called Viet-Nam, I relate very strongly with this thread. If it had not been for the Grace and intervention of Allaah(swt) I could very well have been one of these statistics.

I do suffer from PTSD as a result of some experiences during that time. I am one of the few fortunate ones who had it diagnosed and treated, it has been under control for a good length of time now. However, PTSD will be part of my life struggle up to the day I die.

PTSD is not the result of cowardliness nor of immorality, it is a simple reflection that the average American Soldier is not a killer and is trained more to save rather than take lives. The end result is that when it is necessary to take a life, it is nearly impossible for an American Soldier to cope with the pain of doing so. It is a very expensive price to pay.

Why does any American Choose to become a soldier, knowing the possible out come? The main reason is because he honestly believes that the actions will result in saving lives, not destroying them. He believes that his duties would result in minimum deaths and if not taken more innocent people would die.

The American Soldier is not a killer, he has no desire to harm others. Sadly, at times people in power take advantage of this trait and use it as a tool for personal gain.

An analogy would be to picture your self in this fictitious scenario: "A man murdered and raped your mother. He is a psychopath and you know he is going to return for your wife and daughter. Your next door neighbor presents you with evidence that he knows who the man is. He also shows you "proof" that nobody except you is capable of stopping this man. You go out and stop him. Later you find out the man was innocent and your neighbor gave you false information, so that he could collect on a large insurance policy the man had."

sadly, that is similar to what has happened to many American soldiers. The result is often PTSD.
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Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 05:31 PM
PTSD is real.

The title of this thread is maliciously deceptive. The thread is populated with a chap who prays that American Vets blow their brains out. But, Islam is all about peace, you understand.
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wilberhum
11-20-2007, 05:58 PM
:peace:Another "Reality" post by Woodrow.

A man who's wisdom is beyond his years. :D

And that a lot.



Well done Woodrow, you are a man all need to respect.
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Jayda
11-20-2007, 06:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
She's laughing cause these so called macho soldier boys can't handle the pressure and tension of the war and the barbaric war crimes they committed so they go back home and kill their own families and commit suicide. That is their sad state and one they deserve for being where they are not wanted and oppressing a nation of people in order to steal their oil.
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
And what is wrong in praying against your enemy? don't tell me you'll be praising the army that invades your land and murders and rapes your people?
hola,

the part in bold is insane, and really offensive for those of us with husbands in the military...

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

czgibson
11-20-2007, 06:03 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
As for hating the american people, yea sure i hate the dumb and narrow minded bigots (we even got one or two on here).
A bigot is very likely to make broad generalisations about large groups of people. Just like you did there.

Release your hate. It leads to the dark side.

Peace
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 06:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
This is a topic that is very personal too me. Going back many years to a far away place called Viet-Nam, I relate very strongly with this thread. If it had not been for the Grace and intervention of Allaah(swt) I could very well have been one of these statistics.

I do suffer from PTSD as a result of some experiences during that time. I am one of the few fortunate ones who had it diagnosed and treated, it has been under control for a good length of time now. However, PTSD will be part of my life struggle up to the day I die.

PTSD is not the result of cowardliness nor of immorality, it is a simple reflection that the average American Soldier is not a killer and is trained more to save rather than take lives. The end result is that when it is necessary to take a life, it is nearly impossible for an American Soldier to cope with the pain of doing so. It is a very expensive price to pay.

Why does any American Choose to become a soldier, knowing the possible out come? The main reason is because he honestly believes that the actions will result in saving lives, not destroying them. He believes that his duties would result in minimum deaths and if not taken more innocent people would die.

The American Soldier is not a killer, he has no desire to harm others. Sadly, at times people in power take advantage of this trait and use it as a tool for personal gain.

An analogy would be to picture your self in this fictitious scenario: "A man murdered and raped your mother. He is a psychopath and you know he is going to return for your wife and daughter. Your next door neighbor presents you with evidence that he knows who the man is. He also shows you "proof" that nobody except you is capable of stopping this man. You go out and stop him. Later you find out the man was innocent and your neighbor gave you false information, so that he could collect on a large insurance policy the man had."

sadly, that is similar to what has happened to many American soldiers. The result is often PTSD.

No offense bro but i disagree with "american solder is meant to save lives and is not a killer"

There's a handful good boys out there but most let loose their evil from within knowing well they don't have to be held accountable, esp. when their commanders encourage it.


Bombing Mosque in Iraq for Fun
http://www.ifilm.com/video/2799079">http://www.ifilm.com/video/2799079


Soldiers making iraqi boy chase truck for water
http://www.youtube.com/v/uXzpUawlEGQ

US soldier's atrocities in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/v/0_-31rFCVLg

Soldiers torturing a dog in iraq
http://www.youtube.com/v/29ubFeESQbU

Hidden Massacre of Fallujah
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...64675735&hl=en


Hidden Massacre of Haditha
http://video.google.com/googleplayer...52111781&hl=en

Iraq Women Prison Atrocities
http://www.youtube.com/v/J1euPBRRxTU

http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor1.jpg
http://www.inminds.co.uk/noor2.jpg

I don't see any life saving compassionate soldiers you're talking about?

May Allah destroy them all, mind and body!

ameen!
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islamirama
11-20-2007, 06:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola,

the part in bold is insane, and really offensive for those of us with husbands in the military...

que Dios te bendiga
What about those iraqi whose husbands never came home, who have to sell their bodies to earn a living?

It's insane for you but peace for us. More of them dead means less of us dead. It's as simple as that.
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Jayda
11-20-2007, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
What about those iraqi whose husbands never came home, who have to sell their bodies to earn a living?

It's insane for you but peace for us. More of them dead means less of us dead. It's as simple as that.
how is it peaceful for you to have my husband come back home and kill me and our daughters?
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wilberhum
11-20-2007, 06:13 PM
I just have to duplicate what I just posted on another thread.
islamirama

This shows how much you actually know also buddy
You must be the keeper of ALL knowledge.

You always claim that you know and no one else does.

How is that?
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AHMED_GUREY
11-20-2007, 06:13 PM
conscience?
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islamirama
11-20-2007, 06:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
how is it peaceful for you to have my husband come back home and kill me and our daughters?
Think of it as God's punishment for what he did to someone's husband, wife,daughter,son, mother, father. That be one less killing machine to get rest and go back out to murder again.
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Jayda
11-20-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Think of it as God's punishment for what he did to someone's husband, wife,daughter,son, mother, father. That be one less killing machine to get rest and go back out to murder again.
hola,

so why don't you kill me? he is gone most of the year, it wouldn't be difficult.

que Dios te bendiga
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 06:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola,

so why don't you kill me? he is gone most of the year, it wouldn't be difficult.

que Dios te bendiga

what he does over there (help vs oppress) will show how he will behave when he comes home (be happy or kill his family). My job is to pray for my brothers and sisters that are being oppressed and occupied and Allah take care of those who have done injustice there. Whether your husband is one of them or not depends on him and his actions there.
Reply

Jayda
11-20-2007, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
what he does over there (help vs oppress) will show how he will behave when he comes home (be happy or kill his family). My job is to pray for my brothers and sisters that are being oppressed and occupied and do justice against those that have done injustice there. Whether your husband is one of them or not depends on him and his actions there.
are you aware you are really upsetting me?
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 06:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
are you aware you are really upsetting me?
Is your upsetting worth more than the lives of the iraqi? I don't see why you would get upset. Don't you have faith in your husband? If he's a good guy and is actually there to help then you have nothing to worry about. If he is one of those guys (see links posted for woodrow) then you pray that Allah guide him before Allah accepts somebody's dua.

Prophet said, Three Duas are such in which there is no doubt of their acceptance:
1) Parent’s Dua
2) Traveler’s Dua
3) Dua of the oppressed”.

(Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah)


Abu Hurairah narrates from the Prophet (saw), “In the court of Allah, there is no greater thing than Duaa” (Ibn Majah)

hadith, “Verily your Lord is Generous and Shy. If His servant raises his hands to Him (in supplication) He becomes shy to return them empty (Ahmad, Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi).
Reply

Jayda
11-20-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Is your upsetting worth more than the lives of the iraqi? I don't see why you would get upset. Don't you have faith in your husband? If he's a good guy and is actually there to help then you have nothing to worry about. If he is one of those guys (see links posted for woodrow) then you pray that Allah guide him before Allah accepts somebody's dua.

Prophet said, Three Duas are such in which there is no doubt of their acceptance:
1) Parent’s Dua
2) Traveler’s Dua
3) Dua of the oppressed”.

(Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah)


Abu Hurairah narrates from the Prophet (saw), “In the court of Allah, there is no greater thing than Duaa” (Ibn Majah)

hadith, “Verily your Lord is Generous and Shy. If His servant raises his hands to Him (in supplication) He becomes shy to return them empty (Ahmad, Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi).
is there anything (action, idea, belief) in your mind which your perspective on the iraq war would not justify?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
11-20-2007, 06:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
how is it peaceful for you to have my husband come back home and kill me and our daughters?
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Think of it as God's punishment for what he did to someone's husband, wife,daughter,son, mother, father. That be one less killing machine to get rest and go back out to murder again.
i doubt it would mean more peace for us if Jayda and her daughters were killed by ''anyone'', two wrongs don't make a right brother.

Still this war on Terror is 'illegal' and is actually terrorizing innocent civilians as we speak, basically the term is an 'oxymoron'
Reply

Woodrow
11-20-2007, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
what he does over there (help vs oppress) will show how he will behave when he comes home (be happy or kill his family). My job is to pray for my brothers and sisters that are being oppressed and occupied and Allah take care of those who have done injustice there. Whether your husband is one of them or not depends on him and his actions there.
Actually very good words to ponder over. Like with all people each must be seen on an individual basis and not condemned on the basis of some. There are American soldiers in Iraq with a sincere desire to help the Iraqi people and there are some with a strong desire to harm the Iraqi people.

Very few if any American soldiers want to be in Iraq, most are there because they honestly believe they are fighting the people who are suppressing the Iraqi's. It is very doubtful that any American soldiers will make any personal gains as a result of being in Iraq. For most it is a tremendous burden and very thankless. They go with the belief they are going to help the Iraqis only to learn that they are despised and unwanted. Than they return to the USA to further criticism from fellow Americans who further condemn them for having gone.

Now the question is why do they go? Believe it or not it is for the very same reason people in Iraq fight them for being there. It is because they want to remove the invaders and oppressors.

A common enemy is causing people, who should be working together, to see each other as enemies and destroyers of Iraq. Outside of probable upper level echelon people, in more than one government, nobody wants American soldiers in Iraq. Especially the soldiers themselves.

Now, like you said in the post, each soldier needs to be judged on his personal action while in Iraq and not all being lumped into the same category as the idiots in the videos shown on your earlier post.
Reply

Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 06:54 PM
Let us offer up an interfaith prayer that an asteroid fall on a certain someone's head at 12,000 mph. Who will join me?

Oh..I almost forgot..let us ask God that it fall on him (I mean the certain someone) while outside so that mom and dad's den won't be damaged.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
11-20-2007, 06:59 PM
Cosgnecenti the Impact will engulf and kill more somebody's and someones than the actuall 'certain someone' it was intended for. :D I rather pray for peace!
Reply

Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 06:59 PM
We are getting somewhere. At least now we have a grudging admission that there might be one American in Iraq without purely evil intent.

Woohoo! Lookout boys and girls. Next stop world peace.
Reply

Cognescenti
11-20-2007, 07:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Cosgnecenti the Impact will engulf and kill more somebody's and someones than the actuall 'certain someone' it was intended for. :D I rather pray for peace!
OK..OK...a marble-sized meteorite then.
Reply

islamirama
11-20-2007, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Actually very good words to ponder over. Like with all people each must be seen on an individual basis and not condemned on the basis of some. There are American soldiers in Iraq with a sincere desire to help the Iraqi people and there are some with a strong desire to harm the Iraqi people.

Very few if any American soldiers want to be in Iraq, most are there because they honestly believe they are fighting the people who are suppressing the Iraqi's. It is very doubtful that any American soldiers will make any personal gains as a result of being in Iraq. For most it is a tremendous burden and very thankless. They go with the belief they are going to help the Iraqis only to learn that they are despised and unwanted. Than they return to the USA to further criticism from fellow Americans who further condemn them for having gone.

Now the question is why do they go? Believe it or not it is for the very same reason people in Iraq fight them for being there. It is because they want to remove the invaders and oppressors.

A common enemy is causing people, who should be working together, to see each other as enemies and destroyers of Iraq. Outside of probable upper level echelon people, in more than one government, nobody wants American soldiers in Iraq. Especially the soldiers themselves.

Now, like you said in the post, each soldier needs to be judged on his personal action while in Iraq and not all being lumped into the same category as the idiots in the videos shown on your earlier post.

Again bro. I think there's a few good men out there and more the HS grad sex craved punks. Sad part is the majority over there are the types i showed you the video off, otherwise there wouldn't be such chaos in iraq. When they first they invaded, maybe 1/2 of the iraq was happy but since then, with the mass murders and rapes, no one in iraq sees the occupiers as friendly.

And Lastly, invasion and occupation of Muslim lands by default means Jihaad. Don't matter what reason they are there, the soldiers can stop the oppessor (bush) in their own home land first. He killed more iraqis in 5yrs then saddam did in his life time. Fighting him and his army is obligatory on every Muslim.


Allah declares in the Qur'an:
  • "To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to defend themselves), because they are wronged - and verily, Allah is Most Powerful to give them victory - (they are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right - (for no cause) except that they say, 'Our Lord is Allah'.... " 22:39-40

  • "Jihâd (fighting/struggling in Allâh's Cause) is ordained for you (Muslims) though you dislike it, and it may be that you dislike a thing which is good for you and that you like a thing which is bad for you. Allâh knows but you do not know." 2:216
Hadith - Al-Tirmidhi #3835, Narrated AbuHurayrah


Allah's Messenger

said, "If anyone meets Allah with no mark of jihad, he will meet Allah with a flaw in him." [Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah transmitted it]


Reply

Woodrow
11-20-2007, 07:27 PM
I have closed this thread because it appears that every side has been covered. There is no need for this to become further debate. None of the post have been deleted and I feel that there is an equal balance so that any reader will have sufficient means to form opinions on their own.
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