Your God at walmart next to Bratz dolls--christians how do you feel?

[جوري]

Wal-Mart stocks Bratz dolls next to Jesus
Posted Nov 19th 2007 2:05PM by Brian White
Filed under: Products and services, Wal-Mart (WMT), Marketing and advertising

In case you haven't visited a toy aisle at a local Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. (NYSE: WMT) Supercenter this holiday season, don't be alarmed if you hear some religious-speak from some of the dolls and figurines.

Amid the Bratz dolls and Fisher farm animals, you'll find a decent assortment of faith-based toys, some of which proclaim to be "Jesus, the son of God," according to The Chicago Tribune.

Given its Southern roots in Arkansas and its conservative nature, it's in Wal-Mart's blood to be a purveyor of religious toys this time of year. But this is a first -- stocking faith-based toys at Christmastime (or holiday time, if you prefer that).




As a parent, are you for or against these kinds of religious-themed toys? Are they any different than scantily clad Barbies that present an unrealistic view of physical beauty? How about demon-headed boy's toys that look like something from the movie "Hellraiser?" Having a variety of toys that suits all kids, ethnicities and religious beliefs seems appropriate for a retailer that wants to be everything to everyone, all the time. Agree or disagree?
Tags: Bratz doll, BratzDoll, faith toys, FaithToys, God, inthenews, Jesus, Jesus toys, JesusToys, Wal-Mart, WMT

[جوري]

Does anyone find this just the least bit concerning?

It reminds me of pre-Islamic Arabia.. where they used to buy their God from the market place made of chopped dates and raisins and fashioned to the famous 'lat wal 3ozha', then people would eat it a little and worship it a little...

christianity is becoming so strange and obsolete to me.. I'd have a difficult time reconciling that I can buy 'God' from wal-mart..

Asghfor Allah al3atheem..


:w:

[Keltoi]

Well, it isn't something I would endorse, but it isn't something I would spend alot of time worrying about either. I seriously doubt many Christians would buy a Christ doll to begin with. Sounds like a some marketing exec figured to cash in on Christ on the holiday season...I'm sure he will be dissapointed.

[Nabooly]

I totally agree with you bro. Makes zero sense.

Aslan in the first place, those Bratz dolls are the freakiest things ive ever seen.

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[Grace Seeker]

Purest, I haven't seen any of the items you mention, so maybe I wouldn't think it so bad if I saw it. But just the idea of it is one of the things that disgusts me about the way we celebrate Christmas in the west, or pretty much around the world any more. Yes, I buy my kids presents too, but Christmas surely isn't about that, and all the marketing associated with Christmas and the whole idea that the economy is going to flounder if the stores don't have good Christmas sales is just to miss the whole point. My God doesn't come off a Wal-Mart shelf or fit in a box under a tree.

[جوري]

Purest, I haven't seen any of the items you mention, so maybe I wouldn't think it so bad if I saw it. But just the idea of it is one of the things that disgusts me about the way we celebrate Christmas in the west, or pretty much around the world any more. Yes, I buy my kids presents too, but Christmas surely isn't about that, and all the marketing associated with Christmas and the whole idea that the economy is going to flounder if the stores don't have good Christmas sales is just to miss the whole point. My God doesn't come off a Wal-Mart shelf or fit in a box under a tree.

I believe it is in the Arkansas shop, a dear friend of mine told me that is wal-mart head quarters?... I am surprised at how much more outraged I am than most christians who are taking it with a shrug of the shoulders... I mean where do you draw the line? this is totally sacrilegious. I don't think of Jesus as God but it is unacceptable that he be potrayed in any form, let alone in the minds of those who actually worship him...I mean do people put that doll under the tree so the dog can chew its head on xmas morning..does he come in black, white and hispanic? is he a wind up or battery operated?... I can't believe it.. I simply can't understand how it is ok? I think life is moving at a much faster pace than I can concilliate with 'old world values'


peace!

[snakelegs]

it seems there is nothing that does not get commodified sooner or later.
somehow i doubt that they'll sell very many. i think christians and muslims would find it sacrelgious and no-one else would want them either.
stupid wal-mart. (public enemy #1 - well, almost)

[Woodrow]

In my younger days as a Christian I would have considered it to be very sacrilegious. Today as a Muslim I still consider it to be very sacrilegious. A toy is given to a child to play with, manipulate, control and own. I wonder what lesson this is going to teach them about Isa(swt)

As a Muslim I could not buy one for my grand children for several reasons one of them being I would fear about the concepts this would give them about all of the Prophets(PBUT)

I would call this the final commercialization of Christianity. Although I do not agree with Christianity, I do not want to see it defiled either. Respect is respect is respect and this blatant display of commercialism is not respect.

[Nabooly]

it seems there is nothing that does not get commodified sooner or later.
somehow i doubt that they'll sell very many. i think christians and muslims would find it sacrelgious and no-one else would want them either.
stupid wal-mart. (public enemy #1 - well, almost)

I dont think it should be stupid walmart, in this case. It should be stupid manufacturing company who is producing these (both the Jesus doll and the bratz one). The doll is marketed as a toy, so wlly world respectively hasto put it in the toys section.

Anyway whether ur christian, muslim, or anything else, its wrong... :-\

[snakelegs]

wal-mart wouldn't have had to buy and stock it.
i have a chronic case of anti-walmartitis! :raging:

[Nabooly]

wal-mart wouldn't have had to buy and stock it.
i have a chronic case of anti-walmartitis! :raging:

Haha, imagine me, i have 2 Super walmarts withing 10 minutes of where i live. :muddlehea

[snakelegs]

my condolences.
my small town gave them $20 million welfare to come here and force dozens of small businesses out.

[Nabooly]

Yep same here. but not just small businesses. Meijer and Krogers parking lots have been seriously cut by half. Go anytime of day to walmart and ull see it totally full!

[Isambard]

I dont how. The idea was most likely put forth by a group of christians to begin with.

There are already video games involving biblical characters made by right-wing groups. The idea behind allthis is that since kids like toys and games, cramming Jesus and other religious stuff behind it will have them learn ane be interested in it w/o them knowing. Essentially making it "cool".

I personally see it as disgusting as its little more than a brain washing tool but 'Se la vi' I suppose.

Also, I still dont see how Christianity is any less commodified than Islam. I mean when I go to chapters, I can pick up both a Bible and a Qur'an (with assorted editions) and someone somewhere is making a profit.

[Jayda]

Does anyone find this just the least bit concerning?

It reminds me of pre-Islamic Arabia.. where they used to buy their God from the market place made of chopped dates and raisins and fashioned to the famous 'lat wal 3ozha', then people would eat it a little and worship it a little...

christianity is becoming so strange and obsolete to me.. I'd have a difficult time reconciling that I can buy 'God' from wal-mart..

Asghfor Allah al3atheem..


:w:

hola,

well, i don't see why you think this is different from islamic initiatives like 'isla.car,' those fatima hand talismans to ward off the 'evil eye,' beverages like 'quibla cola' or movies like 'the message.' using commercialism to try to reach people is certainly not restrained to christianity. it has been going on for centuries. walmart and toy stores are not christianity any more than the movie dogma is christianity, they do this in spite of us... not on account of us. all the same, protestant groups frighten me. they are very odd... they don't practice any of the original rituals or sacrements of the apostolic faith, commercialize and simplify doctrine and they have an obsession with judaism and israel that is both creepy and unchristian.

que Dios te bendiga

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I agree with most of the posters that this is a pretty horrific phenomenon. I think Isambard hits the nail on the head - it's just a simple brainwashing tool. I used to work in a toyshop when I was a student, and they had all these little ironing boards and toy washing machines for girls. Get 'em practising while they're young! I find the Jesus doll about as creepy now as I found them then. The singer Tom Waits has a great song about a similar 'gift option' called 'Chocolate Jesus'. Here are the lyrics.

Purest, I haven't seen any of the items you mention, so maybe I wouldn't think it so bad if I saw it. But just the idea of it is one of the things that disgusts me about the way we celebrate Christmas in the west, or pretty much around the world any more. Yes, I buy my kids presents too, but Christmas surely isn't about that, and all the marketing associated with Christmas and the whole idea that the economy is going to flounder if the stores don't have good Christmas sales is just to miss the whole point. My God doesn't come off a Wal-Mart shelf or fit in a box under a tree.

Fair enough, but the tradition of giving gifts at Christmas-time is actually older than Christianity itself. Some people aren't aware that the date of Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus' birth - Christmas is celebrated on December 25th to coincide with the Roman Saturnalia and other pagan winter festivals. By taking over this date and rebranding it, the early Christians were able to gain converts who perhaps didn't realise that their own festivals were being overhauled.

Peace

[Jayda]

hola

i'm not the only christian that thinks this way... but christmas is completely out of control... maybe i ate too many candy canes as a child but it is just sickening to be surrounded by elves, really stupid santa clause movies (the santa clause 3??), garrish decorations, toys piled upon toys, and various other things we 'need.'

we go up to our home in marthas vineyard for christmas so that we can have snow. the BEST parts of christmas are mass, the christmas dinner with my family (we stopped doing presented for the extended family gatherings), ice skating and decorations that are pretty and traditional and not over the top (garlands & ribbon as compared to giant plastic blow up snowglobes). my husband and i decided that we are going to allow some of the secular things... like a tree, santa clause and 'a christmas carol' to be part of our childrens' christmas experience growing up but we want to emphasize the religious importance and mass more. we're limiting christmas gifts to two things for each person (including ourselves), one that is personal and meaningful and another gift that is the expensive traditional idea of a gift. the rest we are going to choose charities to give money to and then let our kids when they are old enough.

like a christmas tree, christmas needs to be trimmed...

que Dios te bendiga

[Amadeus85]

We survived hundreds of blasphemous things like for example Christ sculpture in urine or cross with man's sexual organs on it, that im sure that we will survive this too.The Church exists since 2000 years and sometimes shrudding shoulders is a good way to coment some things.

[Gator]

my husband and i decided that we are going to allow some of the secular things... like a tree, santa clause and 'a christmas carol' to be part of our childrens' christmas experience growing up but we want to emphasize the religious importance and mass more.

I want my family to celebrate christmas even though I'm an atheist (wife lapsed Catholic) as I want my kids to keep the traditions. I think its important to know where you came from and what your people were.

And definitely NO GIANT SNOWGLOBES!

Just a random observation.

Thanks.

[جوري]

hola,

well, i don't see why you think this is different from islamic initiatives like 'isla.car,' those fatima hand talismans to ward off the 'evil eye,'

Greetings... I don't know what 'Isla car' is? .. I am not sure what fatima's hand is either as I don't believe any 'talisman's' hold special power... but I'll take your word that such matters do exist and considered of value by some.. I still can't reconcile a colorful hand be it a monkey's paw or 'Fatima's hand' for that matter, with 'God' Next to Bratz dolls in a large super market.. but that is just me...

beverages like 'quibla cola' or movies like 'the message.' using commercialism to try to reach people is certainly not restrained to christianity.

Again.. I don't see how 'Qibla cola' compares to "God" in an isle at your local wal-mart... This isn't just mercantilism, this is reducing "God" in this case your God to something as lowely as a dog toy... although I can see why it wouldn't bother many.. given that there is a 'God' statue in every church, and in every color to whom people kneel as if to mimic practices of the pagans.. so what if you take him from the church to be a wind up doll under the tree...

it has been going on for centuries. walmart and toy stores are not christianity any more than the movie dogma is christianity, they do this in spite of us... not on account of us.

Many of such events were actually commissioned by the church itself... Caravaggio's 'Death of the Virgin' where he used a dead W H O R E to depict the virgin Mary was commissioned by the church.. obviousely the fact that he used a dead ***** got on their nerves but frankly what do you expect when you want to reduce the holiest of figures to a mural on the wall?

all the same, protestant groups frighten me. they are very odd... they don't practice any of the original rituals or sacrements of the apostolic faith, commercialize and simplify doctrine and they have an obsession with judaism and israel that is both creepy and unchristian.

que Dios te bendiga

The two protestants I know, find Catholicism as abhorrent from the bizarre practices to the velvet brocades to the sanctifying every other person and praying through them.. a Saint for hookers and a saint to have for good luck and a saint for travel.. hardly concentrates around God anymore.. and who could blame them if God can be found at the super market?

Blessings to you as well


cheers!

[Jayda]

Greetings... I don't know what 'Isla car' is? .. I am not sure what fatima's hand is either as I don't believe any 'talisman's' hold special power... but I'll take your word that such matters do exist and considered of value by some.. I still can't reconcile a colorful hand be it a monkey's paw or 'Fatima's hand' for that matter, with 'God' Next to Bratz dolls in a large super market.. but that is just me...

hola,

i do not know where you live or if you have been to any muslim countries... but they sell these, they are quite popular. they are idols, assigning the powers of God to a little trinket sold alongside dried dates.

Again.. I don't see how 'Qibla cola' compares to "God" in an isle at your local wal-mart... This isn't just mercantilism, this is reducing "God" in this case your God to something as lowely as a dog toy... although I can see why it wouldn't bother many.. given that there is a 'God' statue in every church, and in every color to whom people kneel as if to mimic practices of the pagans.. so what if you take him from the church to be a wind up doll under the tree...

of course it is mercantilism, it's market driven and not faith driven. also, i told you i am against this so please stop saying 'you' and 'your' as if i or christianity are responsible for the decisions of a few wayward people. and we do not believe that a small plastic mass produced figurine is God.

Many of such events were actually commissioned by the church itself... Caravaggio's 'Death of the Virgin' where he used a dead W H O R E to depict the virgin Mary was commissioned by the church.. obviousely the fact that he used a dead ***** got on their nerves but frankly what do you expect when you want to reduce the holiest of figures to a mural on the wall?

well obviously catholics and muslims differ on this. we do not worship figures but rather what they represent nor do we believe that they are the people and places they are meant to depict. regardless of how it is transmitted to us when God tells us something we demonstrate our obedience to His Word. this is why Joshua knelt before the angel in Joshua 5:14 and asked him what his Lord had to say. he did not believe the angel to be his Lord, nor was he kneeling out of obedience to the angel... but rather to what the angel represented and carried.

images also give us a focal point for prayer, it is much more meaningful to actually see what 'dying for your sins' entails when it is portrayed in inescapably gruesome detail in front of your eyes... rather than to talk about it or think about it in the abstract.

The two protestants I know, find Catholicism as abhorrent from the bizarre practices to the velvet brocades to the sanctifying every other person and praying through them.. a Saint for hookers and a saint to have for good luck and a saint for travel.. hardly concentrates around God anymore.. and who could blame them if God can be found at the super market?

rejecting the practices of the apostolic Church only further highlights how divorced protestantism has become from what the apostles founded. our faith in the saints, prophets and leaders God has graceously provided for us over the centuries demonstrates our obedience to Him. it is not our place to ignore the messengers or the Word of God.

Blessings to you as well


cheers!

gracias... but might you please take the attack tone down a little bit? i feel like this is meant to be an ambush rather than a genuine question. my opinion is that these dolls are sacreligious for the reasons i explained. i'm trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability but i will not if i feel like i am being ignored and this is agenda driven.

que Dios te bendiga

[Pygoscelis]

I recall an old joke website about Jesus action figures and other religious figures as well. I never expected it to become a reality or actually endorsed by the religious themselves.

[جوري]

hola,

i do not know where you live or if you have been to any muslim countries... but they sell these, they are quite popular. they are idols, assigning the powers of God to a little trinket sold alongside dried dates.

I have lived in countries predominately Muslim indeed.. such things go under 'dajal' which are considered kuffer/shirk ( a cardinal sin) by sane practicing Muslims... having your God on a Mural or a statue however is common practice in church, thus that can't be a subject for comparison.. I assure you, I don't bring these up to highlight a veritable difference between Islam and Christianity.

of course it is mercantilism, it's market driven and not faith driven. also, i told you i am against this so please stop saying 'you' and 'your' as if i or christianity are responsible for the decisions of a few wayward people. and we do not believe that a small plastic mass produced figurine is God.

You in the plural sense I mean you no offense... I notice that the figurines don't need to be plastic and in bad taste, they can be in stain glass forms and ok?

well obviously catholics and muslims differ on this. we do not worship figures but rather what they represent nor do we believe that they are the people and places they are meant to depict. regardless of how it is transmitted to us when God tells us something we demonstrate our obedience to His Word. this is why Joshua knelt before the angel in Joshua 5:14 and asked him what his Lord had to say. he did not believe the angel to be his Lord, nor was he kneeling out of obedience to the angel... but rather to what the angel represented and carried.

Again another difference, but we consider this shirk ( a cardinal sin)

images also give us a focal point for prayer, it is much more meaningful to actually see what 'dying for your sins' entails when it is portrayed in inescapably gruesome detail in front of your eyes... rather than to talk about it or think about it in the abstract.

I have to disagree with that, as it brings it down to a very low common denominator but then again I don't believe in the 'dying for sins' bit.. seems to be the anti-climax for a God so great..

rejecting the practices of the apostolic Church only further highlights how divorced protestantism has become from what the apostles founded. our faith in the saints, prophets and leaders God has graceously provided for us over the centuries demonstrates our obedience to Him. it is not our place to ignore the messengers or the Word of God.

The faith in saints doesn't reconcile well with jesus' teachings does it? from what I understand, Protestantism on some level has tried to reform the church away from velvet brocade, candles and unusual practices that involve things against the very nature of man or woman for instance celibacy.. under either circumstance, I believe both denominations to have strayed from the purpose all together.. but from a complete spectator view, I'd say Protestantism is more in concert with one God than the million saints I see in Catholicism

gracias... but might you please take the attack tone down a little bit? i feel like this is meant to be an ambush rather than a genuine question. my opinion is that these dolls are sacreligious for the reasons i explained. i'm trying to answer your questions to the best of my ability but i will not if i feel like i am being ignored and this is agenda driven.

que Dios te bendiga

My dear Jayda you are under no obligation to partake in this whatsoever... it doesn't change my mind about christianity to see a Jesus doll or a mother Theresa doll knowing what I know about art history commissioned by the church and for centuries.. I have the same reservations about a doll depicting Jesus as I would cartoon about prophet Mohammed SWS... it is outrageous.. if it doesn't outrage you (plural) there is nothing I can say or do about that.. I am pretty sure it will still be on the shelves...and you are right, I was trying to delve into a deeper issue... the issue of sacrilegious depictions of sanctities so that it really doesn't matter whether he is made into a dog toy or a mural in some church...There is something wrong with that picture and that is why many will see it as 'art' or a way for people to relate to their God, or just a really fun toy at christmas time...It is insufferable transgressions... which I guess can be now classified as free speech?..


peace!

[Jayda]

it would be more honest if you titled your threads to what you intended to discuss...

[جوري]

it would be more honest if you titled your threads to what you intended to discuss...

I thought I did? 'Your God at walmart' should have been the give away?


peace!

[nevesirth]

wont be suprised if they start making sex toys in the name of christianity, its all abt making money. dvds cds, toys etc, wht next?

[wilberhum]

wont be suprised if they start making sex toys in the name of christianity, its all abt making money. dvds cds, toys etc, wht next?

They already make "sex toys". But why do you tie them to Christinanity?

Do you think only Christians use them? :hiding::hiding::hiding:

[nevesirth]

lol

[Amadeus85]

wont be suprised if they start making sex toys in the name of christianity, its all abt making money. dvds cds, toys etc, wht next?

You shouldn't mislead christianity with some actions of people who are christians. It just like with islam right? Sounds similair.

[nevesirth]

church business is one of the fastest growing businesses in the world, so why wont toy makers take advantage of it? its all abt money, most churches preach maoney all the time

[Amadeus85]

church business is one of the fastest growing businesses in the world, so why wont toy makers take advantage of it? its all abt money, most churches preach maoney all the time

You have attended many churches i guess. :D.

[barney]

Absolutly no problem. (of Course)

Nodding head Jesus, Lego Noah, Cartoon Jebadiah, Zeus-on-a-stick.

All the above are aimed at Atheists and Agnostics, that really dont care about religion in the main anyway. Those that are bothered;

Either
0) Ignore and get on with your faith
1)Boycott the manufacturers,
2) whine in the press, or
3)burn down the Guatamalan embassy slaughtering all inside, if the toy is Guatamalan
4) Destroy everyone in the whole world ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Depending on your level of insanity.

[جوري]

Barney on religion

Barney on cold weather

Barney on the human condition

Barney on turkey...

Eh.. I look fwd to your next insight...


cheers!

[smile]

bratz dolls don't have noses!
weird

[Keltoi]

Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don't know what a Bratz doll is....oh well, I will try to move on without that knowledge.

[snakelegs]

;D i didn't know either before this thread and then i looked it up.
you're not missing anything.

[root]

Interesting Purest, I thought Islamic & Christian sense of God were two of the same right? Additionally, since when did jesus become God? Has God passed away and now jesus inherits his throne or something. :giggling:

[Woodrow]

Interesting Purest, I thought Islamic & Christian sense of God were two of the same right? Additionally, since when did jesus become God? Has God passed away and now jesus inherits his throne or something. :giggling:

Please reread the assigned textbook for Comparative Religion 101 and answer the first practice question:

Which is "What is the primary difference between a Muslim and a Christian?"

[Grace Seeker]

Please reread the assigned textbook for Comparative Religion 101 and answer the first practice question:

Which is "What is the primary difference between a Muslim and a Christian?"

:::raises hand::::

"I know! I know!"

[جوري]

Interesting Purest,

thank you

I thought Islamic & Christian sense of God were two of the same right?

wrong..else we wouldn't be called Muslims and them christians?!

Additionally, since when did jesus become God?

sometime after around 325 CE , the Council of Nicea met and decided Jesus being God had that je ne sais quoi they needed to make christianity interesting :shade:

Has God passed away and now jesus inherits his throne or something. :giggling:

I don't know...you'll need to direct that, to the christian members on board..

cheerio

[Jayda]

hola

since you really just want to have another conversation about how warped Christianity is perhaps it's time for you to qualify some of the statements you are regurgitating from muslim 'scholars' like ahmed deedat or zakir naik. for example - maybe muslims could make up their minds about who the evil cabal of sinister people was that 'promoted' jesus to God?

sometimes it's the apostle st. paul, a jewish convert of absolutely no significance to the empire, other times it's a roman emperor, one of the most powerful men in history. i've even heard the assertion it was a secret group of jews trying to discredit jesus.

the only thing consistent about these theories is that they lack consistency... there is no connection by time (300 years from Paul to Constantine), nor by place (726 miles from byzantium to jerusalem), nor by motivation (Paul = agent of evil, Constantine = enterprising pagan). in fact very often they are mutually exclusive, like arguing Paul and then Constantine - it puts the so called 'creation' of Jesus' divinity 300 years apart.

not that most muslims who talk about Paul or Nicea actually know what the Trinity is or how that relates to (and is different from) Jesus' divinity.

i guess the only other thing they have in common is that they lack historical foundation. Constantine was an arian (the ones who lost), not a trinitarian. as was his spiritual advisor eusebius. in the end the alexandrian trinitarians were persecuted by the empire for the next 100 years until the last arian emperor died.

meanwhile, the only actual evidence we have that a saul of tarsus even existed comes from scripture and sacred tradition alone. there are no outside sources, at all. tellingly, the only sources that reference him demonstrate his piety and worthiness to be called an apostle of God, the disciples and other apostles respected him. character assasins rely on their own interpretation of specific selections of scripture then fill in the blanks with active imaginations.

it's difficult to take you seriously when you can't even choose which conspiracy theory is the 'right one,' especially when you insult everyone from our apostles and disciples to our Holy Fathers in the process. not that it matters to you how many of our extremely important religious figures are unjustly defamed and insulted while you grope for an excuse in the night.

and is there a reason we should listen to muslim self appointed scholars on christianity? they don't listen to us when we explain or try to talk to them instead of listening like good children in class. they usually lack any serious academic merit to add weight to their opinions, so why be so pushy with their blasphemous and insulting words?

que Dios te bendiga

[Ghira]

Making some money out of expense of confused children trying to understand their role as a vicegerant of God, trying to understand who is their Creator, and the purpose of life. What a shame to have such acts being accepted by Christians when even in their own book it says idol worship is wrong. Then again they make many excuses for what is said in their book and what they should be doing. A doll is something children play with and core religious beliefs, Prophets of God, and God almighty is not something we make jokes about nor play around with. There are plenty of other activities to enjoy and that is not one of them.

[جوري]

I beg your pardon? was the above meant for me?

[جوري]

I have actually written quite an extensive topic here on LI on where and when christianity deranged into what it is today.. it might do you some good to use search option, and type in asthansaius or arius and see what comes up, rather than telling me whom I am regurgitating or not-- I'll not descend to word play rehashing recycled topics just because you decided to be displeased with the notion that I mock a "jesus doll' at walmart!... I actually went to catholic school for three years of my life and if there was ever an abode of hypocrisy there it was..where half the young women were showing up pregnant at age 14.

Other than that, 'st.Paul's' relationship to Poppea, you know the former broad who whispered in neros ears to burn down Rome, is enough of an incentive to know exactly what sort of man he is not just concilate it with his relationship to Jesus when he was alive.. I didn't need Zakir or deedat to lecture me on that, all I needed was a history book!

So don't assume for me what it is, that I know or don't know. If paul is a holy man to you, more power to you, it means nothing to me. He isn't holy to me, I have no respect for him.. I find it a wonder though, that you give a debauched like paul more dignity than jesus who is hanging in some mart for a dog to chew..

Don't know what you mean by conspiracy theory?.. there is no mention of Jesus in other historical books save the bible... which in an of itself is inconsistent and varies by denomination.. each denomination think the other one is an apostate.. pls tell me where the conspiracy theories are when all one has to do is scrutinize the book against itself to marvel at its errors...

And you are right..I don't understand the trinity..I also don't believe in Greek mythology where God takes a mortal woman and begets Herculius, except in this case the son of God, wasn't God and his mother wasn't the mother of God, and he didn't also approach her in the form of a holy spirit to tell her that he God will be born to her, die and return to be God again and that they are all one in the same..if that makes sense to you..more power to you.. but it doesn't work for me..It has nothing to do with consipracies, it has to do with what it actually is!

In closure, this topic isn't about the trinity, Muslim lack of understanding of the trinity, rather how christians feel about how someone who represents their God being sold in super markets..

the way it is heading, I believe the thread to have reached the end of its value


cheers!

[Woodrow]

the way it is heading, I believe the thread to have reached the end of its value

Agreed