Imitating Disbelievers: A Khutbah By Shiekh Saud Ash-Shuraim

[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
Got this from another forum..
First Khutbah
I advise you, as well as myself, to fear Allaah in times of prosperity and misfortune, in secret and in public: "O mankind! Worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous." (Al Baqarah: 21).

O people! When a person meditates upon the histories of past nations and populations, he will be instantly amazed at the revolutions and transformations they went through. For instance, there was a pioneering nation (i.e., the Muslim nation) which led the world for many centuries but then, it faltered and lost its leading role; it fell in the midst of blind imitation and followed the paths of other nations in terms of manners and beliefs. Once it was at the acme of development and reached the highest level of power and glory, but it later fell to the lowest point and was afflicted with misery. It died after it had been living, deteriorated after it was once flourishing and withered after it was blossoming. It was the nation that discovered the sources of knowledge and developed the Islaamic civilization and sciences, which the West later obtained significantly, without having to exert the least of efforts. Thus it seems as if the gates towards progress had been shut off for the Muslims as they turned into artificial consumers of the Western civilization. They even began to adopt certain features of it, which were originally theirs but had been stolen away from them.

O Muslims! When a Muslim blindly imitates the West, he turns into a loyal supporter of their beliefs and customs; he is like one who tries to reform something but spoils it while he is unaware. He is just like a defeated follower, like a baby who bites and severs his mother's breast while it is in his mouth. Such a person does not know that blind copying of the West involves hidden hazards and that our rights, honor and dignity are violated by such imitation and imbecilic pride.

O Muslims! The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "You will imitate the nations before you very closely to the extent that if they went into a lizard's hole, you would enter it as well” his companions, may Allaah be pleased with them, inquired: “(Do you mean) the Jews and Christians, O Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who else?” (Bukhaari & Muslim). The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam also said: "The Day of Judgment will not come until my Nation closely imitates the nations before them.” It was asked: “Like the Persians and Romans, Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who are the nations (I could mean) except those?” (Bukhaari).

The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam foretold that some of his nation will imitate the People of the Book, namely the Jews and Christians, as well as other non-Arabs, namely the Persians and Romans. Allaah says that which means: "[You disbelievers are] like those before you; they were stronger than you in power and more abundant in wealth and children. They enjoyed their portion [of worldly enjoyment], and you have enjoyed your portion as those before you enjoyed their portion, and you have engaged [in vanities] like that in which they engaged…" (At-Tawbah: 69). Ibn ‘Abbaas, may Allaah be pleased with him, commented on this verse by saying: “These are the Children of Israel that we will imitate.” Ibn Mas’ood, may Allaah be pleased with him, also said in this regard: “You are closely similar to the Children of Israel as far as outside appearance and manners are concerned, but I do not know whether you will worship the calf (as they did) or not.”

O servants of Allaah! The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam used to prohibit imitating other nations. It is worth mentioning that these traditions do not indicate that the entire Muslim nation will commit this sin as he sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam also foretold that a group of his nation will continue to stick to the Straight Path until the Day of Judgment.

The Muslims constitute the most guided and well-mannered nation in this life; and on the Day of Judgment Allaah will make them witnesses over all other nations as He says that which means: "And thus We have made you a median [i.e., just] community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you…" (Al-Baqarah: 143). Indeed, this is a very prestigious position. How is it, then, that Muslims imitate others in their customs, traditions and feasts? The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam even forbade the Muslims from acquiring religious information from the People of the Book; once, ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, may Allaah be pleased with him, was reading some parts of one of the scriptures of the People of the Book to the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, so he got angry and said: "I have conveyed to you a clear religion. Do not ask them (the People of the Book) about anything, for they may tell you the truth while you belie them or they may lie and you might believe them. I swear by Him in Whose Hands is my soul, if Moosaa was alive, he would not have any choice but to follow me.” (Ahmad & Ibn Abi Shaybah).

Allaah made human beings and all other creatures accustomed to interacting with their similar counterparts. When the degree of similarity increases, such interaction and hence imitation in morals and characteristics becomes more complete, until it is hardly possible to distinguish between them. Accordingly, human beings are affected by each other and acquire each other's traits through cohabitation and imitation. It is also known that if a human being stays in the company of a certain type of animal, he would pick up some of its features; that is why, for example, those who tend camels are known for their pride and arrogance, while shepherds are known to be humble and calm, whereas those who raise both camels and mules acquire some of the bad attributes of both. Similarly, a domestic animal acquires some human characteristics, such as the ability to live with others.

Furthermore, when a person puts on the clothes usually worn by scholars, he may feel himself as somehow closer to them, because similarity and imitation in outward appearance leads to resemblance in inward characteristics such as personal characteristics and morals, as is witnessed in reality and is confirmed by Islaamic jurisprudence and common sense. In the old times, it was said: ‘Birds of a feather flock together’; this is a realistic proverb which conforms to the manner in which Allaah has formed His creation. The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam spoke the truth when he said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." (Ahmad & Abu Dawood)

Shaykh Al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “We have seen that the degree of polytheism is less in those Jews and Christians who reside with Muslims, and that the degree of faith in the Muslims who have dealt extensively with the Jews and Christians is lesser than that of the pious Muslims.”

O servants of Allaah! Imitating polytheists and atheists in their clothing, customs, rules, politics and economics has become widespread among many Muslims to a very large extent, so much so that the one who blindly imitates and tries to Westernize might even be respected by the foolish masses and the youth, including the rich, intellectuals and even the poor, who are attracted to such a person. Woe to imitation and subordination! What weighty and oppressive constraints they have! What a dark path theirs is! What a great loss for whoever follows them!

Yes, woe to imitating and following the West! It has trapped some Muslim generations in the dark, narrow prisons of subordination and dependence, and prevented them from thinking, meditating and heading for glory. It has blocked the means to the real happiness of their souls.

Woe to imitation and dependence! They are obstacles for the intellects and prevent everything that may revive them.

The Muslim Nation should lead, not be led; others should depend on us and not the reverse. Our Nation should not be deceived by the artificial adornments possessed by some devastated people, as Allaah says that which means: "And do not extend your eyes toward that by which We have given enjoyment to [some] categories of them, [its being but] the splendor of worldly life by which We test them. And the provision of your Lord is better and more lasting." (Taa-Haa: 131).

The Western civilization is like a mirage, which, when seen from a distance is like a large sea, but it is as Allaah says which means: "But the disbelievers – their deeds are like a mirage in a lowland which a thirsty one thinks is water until, when he comes to it, he finds it is nothing but finds Allaah before him, and He will pay him in full his due; and Allaah is swift in account." (An-Noor: 39).

The weak and ignorant Muslims, who try to remodel the principles of our nation through imitation, should know that even though such temporal morals may ruin some of the deeply rooted ones, they will never remain or become innate. If some people believe that our nation must change its ways for development, then let it be known that our resorting to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam is the best means for change. Allaah says that which means: "…Indeed, Allaah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allaah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron." (Ar-Ra`d: 11).

If we embrace the means to be powerful, stick to deep-rooted principles such as strong will, piety, courage and Islaamic zeal and adhere to our distinctive code of life which indicates that we are religious and ethical people, what harm would we get from it? Are these not the true Islaamic morals? Are there any other solid foundations for progress besides them? Allaah says that which means: "[And say, ‘Ours is] the religion of Allaah. And who is better than Allaah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him’” (Al-Baqarah: 138) and also: "[Say], ‘Then is it other than Allaah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book [i.e., the Qur’aan] explained in detail?’…" (Al-An’aam: 114)

However, if we are to adopt foreign customs and traditions alien to our religion, from the West, we should remember that Islaam is Islaam and polytheism is polytheism, and that they live in one hemisphere and we live in another. We were the masters before we assumed these Western traditions that ruined the free Muslim nation – its men and especially its women, who have rushed after the unknown in a breathless attempt to imitate the West. They are amazed by the eye-catching products of its industries and have followed its disgraceful women to the extent that their clothes became almost the same as those of Western models. When you see any Muslim woman wearing a dress barely covering her private parts, you should know that this is an example of their kind of clothing. The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said about such women: "I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion and (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of wise men, besides you (women).” (Bukhaari & Muslim).

This is why when Allaah says that which means: "…and amended for him [i.e., Zakariyya] his wife…” (Al-Anbiyaa’: 90) it denotes that He thereby bestowed much grace upon Zakariyya, peace be upon him: He also says which means, "…So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allaah would have them guard…" (An-Nisaa’: 34)

O Muslims! The restrictions imposed by our religion on the human being are not meant to torture or deprive him from the pleasures of this life. Rather, their aim is to elevate him from mere animalism to complete humanity. Thus, a Muslim will become capable of overcoming subservience and dependence, and his faith and piety will overpower animalistic lusts.

Whenever a society ignores such restrictions or belittles them, it jeopardizes and opens itself to serious problems and positions itself on the brink of destruction, as Allaah says that which means: "…And whoever transgresses the limits of Allaah – it is those who are the wrongdoers [i.e., the unjust]” (Al-Baqarah: 229) and also: "…And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allaah? Indeed, Allaah does not guide the wrongdoing people." (Al-Qasas: 50).

Second Khutbah
Our Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam prohibited whatever acts lead to the imitation of the polytheists to such an extent that one of the Jews said about him: "This man does not wish to set aside any of our affairs until he acts in nonconformity with it." (Muslim).

It is also reported that the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam forbade Muslims from offering prayers after dawn until the sun rises and following the afternoon prayer until sunset. He explained that the sun rises and sets between the horns of the devil and at this time, the polytheists prostrate before it. It is well-known that a believer never prostrates himself to anything except Allaah; most people may not even be aware that the sun rises and sets between the horns of the devil and that the polytheists prostrate before it, yet, the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam commanded Muslims not to pray at this time so as not to imitate the polytheists in any way.

Imitating the People of the Book and the non-Arab polytheists will surely lead to some degree of affection towards them. For this reason also, imitation is prohibited in order to block the way before such love transpires and to prevent allegiance to them; this is aside from the legal evidences that prohibit such imitation.

It is plainly evident that some people who copy the polytheists in their clothes, manners, traditions or speak their language, harbor love and admiration for them. In this way, the polytheists succeed in disseminating ideas such as globalization and a universal religion which affect some sick-hearted Muslims; all of these aim at weakening the Muslim character and identity. Whenever a person objects to such ideas, he is labeled as an introvert, an isolationist and even a narrow-minded person alienated from this world and who should have died in his cradle.

Such people seem to ask why the bells of churches do not chime along with the minarets reverberating "Allaah is the Greatest." They ask why there are not many religions being practiced in the Arabian Peninsula, but they forget or seem to forget that the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: "There must not be two religions in the Arabian Peninsula.” (Maalik & Ahmad).

Allaah says that which means: “And never will the Jews and the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say: ‘Indeed, the guidance of Allaah is the [only] guidance.’ If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allaah no protector or helper.” (Al-Baqarah: 120). He also says that which means: "They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike…” (An-Nisaa’: 89).

:sl:

[Umm Yoosuf]

Thread Approved

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Guidelines concerning imitation of the kuffaar

Question:
What are the definitions of imitating the west? Does everything that is modern and new and has come to us from the west imply imitation of them? In other words, when can we say that something is haraam because it is an imitation of the kuffaar?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.
It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever imitates a people is one of them.’” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, al-Libaas, 3512. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh Abi Dawood, (it is) hasan saheeh. No. 3401).

Al-Munaawi and al-‘Alqami said: i.e., dressing as they dress, following their way of life in clothes and some of the things they do.

Al-Qaari said: i.e., whoever imitates the kuffaar, such as in how one dresses, etc., or imitates the evil and immoral people, or the Sufis or the righteous, is one of the people whom he imitates, whether they are good or bad.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem: Imaam Ahmad and others quoted this hadeeth as evidence. This hadeeth at the very least implies that it is haraam to imitate them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “... And if any amongst you takes them [Jews and Christians] as Awliyaa’ [friends, helpers]), then surely, he is one of them…”[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

This is similar to the view of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr who said: “Whoever settles in the land of the mushrikeen and celebrates their Nawroz (new year) and Mahrajaan (festival) and imitates them until he dies will be gathered with them on the Day of Resurrection.” This may be interpreted as referring to absolute imitation which implies kufr and as meaning that imitation in part is therefore haraam; or it may be interpreted as meaning that he is one of them to the extent that he imitates them, whether it is in ideas of kufr, sin or partaking in a ritual. It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade imitating the non-Arabs and said, “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” This was also mentioned by al-Qaadi Abu Ya’laa. This was quoted by more than one of the scholars to show that it is makrooh to imitate forms of dress of the non-Muslims which are not known among the Muslims.

See ‘Awn al-Ma’bood Sharh Sunan Abi Dawood.

Imitating the kuffaar falls into two categories:

Imitation that is haraam and imitation that is permitted:

The first type is imitation that is haraam: this means knowingly doing things that are unique characteristics of the religion of the kuffaar and that have not been referred to in our religion. This is haraam and it may be a major sin; in some cases a person may even become a kaafir by doing that, according to the evidence, whether a person does that because he agrees with the kuffaar, or because of his whims and desires, or because of some specious arguments which make him feel that doing it will being him benefit in this world and the next. If it is asked, is the one who does that out of ignorance a sinner, such as one who celebrates Christmas? The answer is that the one who is ignorant is not a sinner because he was unaware, but he has to be told, and if he persists he becomes a sinner.

The second type is imitation that is permissible. This means doing something which is not originally taken from the kuffaar, but the kuffaar do it too. This does not involve a prohibition on resembling them, but one may miss out on the benefits of differing from them.

Imitating or resembling the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and others with regard to worldly matters is permissible only when the following conditions are met:

1 – That should not be any of their traditions or rituals by which they are distinguished.

2 – That should not be part of their religion. A matter can be proven to be part of their religion though a trustworthy source, such as an aayah of the Qur’aan or a hadeeth of His Messenger, or via well-established reports, such as the prostration of greeting which was permitted to the previous nations.

3 – That should not be anything in Islam which refers specifically to that matter. If there is a specific reference in Islam, either approving or disapproving of it, then we must follow what our religion says about it.

4 – This resemblance should not lead to going against any of the commands of sharee’ah.

5 – That should not involve celebrating any of their festivals.

6 – The resemblance should be only according to what is needed, and no more.

See al-Sunan wa’l-Athaar fi’l-Nahy ‘an al-Tashabbuh bi’l-Kuffaar by Suhayl Hasan, p. 58-59

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Source
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[Ummu Sufyaan]

:sl:
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[crayon]

"It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade imitating the non-Arabs"

I assume he said non arabs because it was only arabs who were muslim at the time?... :?
Because otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Aren't texts like these just recipes for creating division and animosity between Muslims and the rest of the world?

Is that really helpful?

Peace

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,

Aren't texts like these just recipes for creating division and animosity between Muslims and the rest of the world?

Is that really helpful?

Peace

Ah you see this is where a mistake is made - and not that uncommon either (it's just a missunderstanding really). The point of not imitating disbelievers is not to cause a divide of animosity. I guess you could argue it creates division but I'll deal with that discussion in a later post (if anyone wants to talk aboot it)

If we take a look at Umm ul-Shaheed's post above (with the quotation) I'll highlight two of the points that stand out:

....2 – That should not be part of their religion. A matter can be proven to be part of their religion though a trustworthy source, such as an aayah of the Qur’aan or a hadeeth of His Messenger, or via well-established reports, such as the prostration of greeting which was permitted to the previous nations.

3 – That should not be anything in Islam which refers specifically to that matter. If there is a specific reference in Islam, either approving or disapproving of it, then we must follow what our religion says about it.

These two essentially sum up the don't mimic non-believer rule.

It's more of reinforcement of staying on the path of Islam. We have our rules and we have to follow them - we should not be swayed by the non-believers (through imitation) is really all it is saying.

In the real world, this basically comes down to: don't drink, don't eat pork, don't do drugs (or anything else the disbelievers do that is in direct contradiction of the Islamic teachings)

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Ah you see this is where a mistake is made - and not that uncommon either (it's just a missunderstanding really). The point of not imitating disbelievers is not to cause a divide of animosity. I guess you could argue it creates division but I'll deal with that discussion in a later post (if anyone wants to talk aboot it)

That is exactly what I would argue. I guess I'll wait and see what you write in your next post.

Peace

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


That is exactly what I would argue. I guess I'll wait and see what you write in your next post.

Peace

Ok for the ''division'' part. Yes, it does create a division. But, not in the sense that it is a social class division (upper class, middle class etc) or something similar of that nature. It's a division based on teachings (or school of thought if you will) rather than class. It's nothing to do with superiority or inferiority and everything to do with: we have our path, they have theirs.

To examplify this I'll take a page oot of my history. A lot of my non-muslim friends drink (or eat pork). I however, do not give into peer pressure and join them in their drink or pork consumption (and hence do not mimic the disbeliever). Basically, don't mimic the bad things that the non-believers do (which is usually something haram in Islam anyway but as I said before: it's a form of reinforcement) as opposed to ALL that they do.

Part of being a muslim is not to mimic the nonbeliever, but also to set the example for them to follow (by doing good actions). Though, that is not to say non-believers are automatically bad people and not capable of doing good (many of my non-muslim friends are very nice and respectable people) - rather, that it is a duty as muslims for us to be at the forefront of good deeds and serve as examples for the non-muslims (our path is supposed to be the best one and this should be reflected in our actions - if it is not, we are doing a bad job).

Ultimately however, isolating rulings in Islam and analysing them with magnifying glasses only gives us a distorted picture of Islam. We have to look at all the teachings and take a summary from that as opposed to one particular teaching. Same with any religion or ideology.

[*Yasmin*]

"It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade imitating the non-Arabs"

i didn't hear that hadith before from where did you get it?

I assume he said non arabs because it was only arabs who were muslim at the time?... :?
Because otherwise, it doesn't make sense.

no , thats not right
Salman al-farsi
suhayb al-romi
belal ibn rba7 al-7abashi....etc
they aren't Arabs but they are from asahabah(companions' of Rasulu ALLAH)

[crayon]

I got it from the above article, and it doesn't make sense, which left me confused...

[AnonyMouse~]

JazakAllah Khair for the post!

Sheikh Feiz also has an EXCELLENT lecture on immitating the kuffar! its on youtube, check it out it u get tme inshaAllah!

[doorster]

I got it from the above article, and it doesn't make sense, which left me confused...

you are not Alone in that!

[NazariteofEhyah]

[QUOTE=Umm ul-Shaheed;870355]:sl:
Got this from another forum..
First Khutbah
I advise you, as well as myself, to fear Allaah in times of prosperity and misfortune, in secret and in public: "O mankind! Worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous." (Al Baqarah: 21).

Do people become righteousness just by worshipping the LORD? That's the easy way, in my pov.

O people! When a person meditates upon the histories of past nations and populations, he will be instantly amazed at the revolutions and transformations they went through. For instance, there was a pioneering nation (i.e., the Muslim nation) which led the world for many centuries but then, it faltered and lost its leading role; it fell in the midst of blind imitation and followed the paths of other nations in terms of manners and beliefs. Once it was at the acme of development and reached the highest level of power and glory, but it later fell to the lowest point and was afflicted with misery. It died after it had been living, deteriorated after it was once flourishing and withered after it was blossoming. It was the nation that discovered the sources of knowledge and developed the Islaamic civilization and sciences, which the West later obtained significantly, without having to exert the least of efforts. Thus it seems as if the gates towards progress had been shut off for the Muslims as they turned into artificial consumers of the Western civilization. They even began to adopt certain features of it, which were originally theirs but had been stolen away from them.

O Muslims! When a Muslim blindly imitates the West, he turns into a loyal supporter of their beliefs and customs; he is like one who tries to reform something but spoils it while he is unaware. He is just like a defeated follower, like a baby who bites and severs his mother's breast while it is in his mouth. Such a person does not know that blind copying of the West involves hidden hazards and that our rights, honor and dignity are violated by such imitation and imbecilic pride.

Isn't it natural for a baby to bite? We should never be high-minded.

O Muslims! The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "You will imitate the nations before you very closely to the extent that if they went into a lizard's hole, you would enter it as well” his companions, may Allaah be pleased with them, inquired: “(Do you mean) the Jews and Christians, O Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who else?” (Bukhaari & Muslim). The Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam also said: "The Day of Judgment will not come until my Nation closely imitates the nations before them.” It was asked: “Like the Persians and Romans, Messenger of Allaah?” He sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam replied: "Who are the nations (I could mean) except those?” (Bukhaari).

The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam foretold that some of his nation will imitate the People of the Book, namely the Jews and Christians, as well as other non-Arabs, namely the Persians and Romans. Allaah says that which means: "[You disbelievers are] like those before you; they were stronger than you in power and more abundant in wealth and children. They enjoyed their portion [of worldly enjoyment], and you have enjoyed your portion as those before you enjoyed their portion, and you have engaged [in vanities] like that in which they engaged…" (At-Tawbah: 69). Ibn ‘Abbaas, may Allaah be pleased with him, commented on this verse by saying: “These are the Children of Israel that we will imitate.” Ibn Mas’ood, may Allaah be pleased with him, also said in this regard: “You are closely similar to the Children of Israel as far as outside appearance and manners are concerned, but I do not know whether you will worship the calf (as they did) or not.”

O servants of Allaah! The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam used to prohibit imitating other nations. It is worth mentioning that these traditions do not indicate that the entire Muslim nation will commit this sin as he sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam also foretold that a group of his nation will continue to stick to the Straight Path until the Day of Judgment.

The Muslims constitute the most guided and well-mannered nation in this life; and on the Day of Judgment Allaah will make them witnesses over all other nations as He says that which means: "And thus We have made you a median [i.e., just] community that you will be witnesses over the people and the Messenger will be a witness over you…" (Al-Baqarah: 143). Indeed, this is a very prestigious position. How is it, then, that Muslims imitate others in their customs, traditions and feasts? The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam even forbade the Muslims from acquiring religious information from the People of the Book; once, ‘Umar ibn Al-Khattaab, may Allaah be pleased with him, was reading some parts of one of the scriptures of the People of the Book to the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, so he got angry and said: "I have conveyed to you a clear religion. Do not ask them (the People of the Book) about anything, for they may tell you the truth while you belie them or they may lie and you might believe them. I swear by Him in Whose Hands is my soul, if Moosaa was alive, he would not have any choice but to follow me.” (Ahmad & Ibn Abi Shaybah).

That's the view of Islam. You cannot change people, only the LORD does that.

Allaah made human beings and all other creatures accustomed to interacting with their similar counterparts. When the degree of similarity increases, such interaction and hence imitation in morals and characteristics becomes more complete, until it is hardly possible to distinguish between them. Accordingly, human beings are affected by each other and acquire each other's traits through cohabitation and imitation. It is also known that if a human being stays in the company of a certain type of animal, he would pick up some of its features; that is why, for example, those who tend camels are known for their pride and arrogance, while shepherds are known to be humble and calm, whereas those who raise both camels and mules acquire some of the bad attributes of both. Similarly, a domestic animal acquires some human characteristics, such as the ability to live with others.

Furthermore, when a person puts on the clothes usually worn by scholars, he may feel himself as somehow closer to them, because similarity and imitation in outward appearance leads to resemblance in inward characteristics such as personal characteristics and morals, as is witnessed in reality and is confirmed by Islaamic jurisprudence and common sense. In the old times, it was said: ‘Birds of a feather flock together’; this is a realistic proverb which conforms to the manner in which Allaah has formed His creation. The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam spoke the truth when he said: "Whoever imitates a people is one of them." (Ahmad & Abu Dawood)

Which is why I never am to be a Muslim. I believe that the LORD's decrees arn't to be questioned and therein is not truth other then the Scripture..

Shaykh Al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah, may Allaah have mercy on him, said: “We have seen that the degree of polytheism is less in those Jews and Christians who reside with Muslims, and that the degree of faith in the Muslims who have dealt extensively with the Jews and Christians is lesser than that of the pious Muslims.”

O servants of Allaah! Imitating polytheists and atheists in their clothing, customs, rules, politics and economics has become widespread among many Muslims to a very large extent, so much so that the one who blindly imitates and tries to Westernize might even be respected by the foolish masses and the youth, including the rich, intellectuals and even the poor, who are attracted to such a person. Woe to imitation and subordination! What weighty and oppressive constraints they have! What a dark path theirs is! What a great loss for whoever follows them!

Your judging polytheists and atheists? I have been commanded to love my neighbour. Yes, they may break His Commandments but I cannot force pagans and atheists to follow them and to have faith in the LORD. Such is the path of the unrighteousness. Yes, the LORD is jealous, for man should be accountable only to the LORD, but we CANNOT and MUST NOT judge something that isn't in line with our views. The Western World is materialistic. Your time would be better spent encouraging people to break from this habit. But in actuality your forcing humanity to become divided.

Yes, woe to imitating and following the West! It has trapped some Muslim generations in the dark, narrow prisons of subordination and dependence, and prevented them from thinking, meditating and heading for glory. It has blocked the means to the real happiness of their souls.

We cannot claim glory for ourselves. That's simply idolatry. We cannot erect idols of ourselves in front of the LORD.

Woe to imitation and dependence! They are obstacles for the intellects and prevent everything that may revive them.The Muslim Nation should lead, not be led; others should depend on us and not the reverse. Our Nation should not be deceived by the artificial adornments possessed by some devastated people, as Allaah says that which means: "And do not extend your eyes toward that by which We have given enjoyment to [some] categories of them, [its being but] the splendor of worldly life by which We test them. And the provision of your Lord is better and more lasting." (Taa-Haa: 131).

Lead the world if you desire, but your'll only lead the world that gives into you. Materialism is the problem, not Westerners. Dare not make a villain out of me for simply being European.

The Western civilization is like a mirage, which, when seen from a distance is like a large sea, but it is as Allaah says which means: "But the disbelievers – their deeds are like a mirage in a lowland which a thirsty one thinks is water until, when he comes to it, he finds it is nothing but finds Allaah before him, and He will pay him in full his due; and Allaah is swift in account." (An-Noor: 39).

Continuing in his judgement. He's quite proficient at it. How are we to take him seriously when he judges? He's like an empty well. This will only lead to the alienation of the peoples of the world.

The weak and ignorant Muslims, who try to remodel the principles of our nation through imitation, should know that even though such temporal morals may ruin some of the deeply rooted ones, they will never remain or become innate. If some people believe that our nation must change its ways for development, then let it be known that our resorting to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of His Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam is the best means for change. Allaah says that which means: "…Indeed, Allaah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves. And when Allaah intends for a people ill, there is no repelling it. And there is not for them besides Him any patron." (Ar-Ra`d: 11).

They are having problems keeping to Islam. They should become more deeply rooted in it's teachings and eschew the things they find detestable. You cannot bend gravity to your will. Ultimately, this is an attitude of Division and hatred. Leave the people of the West to learn themselves.

If we embrace the means to be powerful, stick to deep-rooted principles such as strong will, piety, courage and Islaamic zeal and adhere to our distinctive code of life which indicates that we are religious and ethical people, what harm would we get from it? Are these not the true Islaamic morals? Are there any other solid foundations for progress besides them? Allaah says that which means: "[And say, ‘Ours is] the religion of Allaah. And who is better than Allaah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him’” (Al-Baqarah: 138) and also: "[Say], ‘Then is it other than Allaah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book [i.e., the Qur’aan] explained in detail?’…" (Al-An’aam: 114)

However, if we are to adopt foreign customs and traditions alien to our religion, from the West, we should remember that Islaam is Islaam and polytheism is polytheism, and that they live in one hemisphere and we live in another. We were the masters before we assumed these Western traditions that ruined the free Muslim nation – its men and especially its women, who have rushed after the unknown in a breathless attempt to imitate the West. They are amazed by the eye-catching products of its industries and have followed its disgraceful women to the extent that their clothes became almost the same as those of Western models. When you see any Muslim woman wearing a dress barely covering her private parts, you should know that this is an example of their kind of clothing. The Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said about such women: "I have seen none lacking in common sense and failing in religion and (at the same time) robbing the wisdom of wise men, besides you (women).” (Bukhaari & Muslim).

Blame only furthers cause for division. Empires rise and fall. If you rise you will fall.

This is why when Allaah says that which means: "…and amended for him [i.e., Zakariyya] his wife…” (Al-Anbiyaa’: 90) it denotes that He thereby bestowed much grace upon Zakariyya, peace be upon him: He also says which means, "…So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allaah would have them guard…" (An-Nisaa’: 34)
O Muslims! The restrictions imposed by our religion on the human being are not meant to torture or deprive him from the pleasures of this life. Rather, their aim is to elevate him from mere animalism to complete humanity. Thus, a Muslim will become capable of overcoming subservience and dependence, and his faith and piety will overpower animalistic lusts.

Allow them, those Westerners you depise so much to see themselves for what they are and then allow them to either stay as they are or to change for the better.

Whenever a society ignores such restrictions or belittles them, it jeopardizes and opens itself to serious problems and positions itself on the brink of destruction, as Allaah says that which means: "…And whoever transgresses the limits of Allaah – it is those who are the wrongdoers [i.e., the unjust]” (Al-Baqarah: 229) and also: "…And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allaah? Indeed, Allaah does not guide the wrongdoing people." (Al-Qasas: 50).

Second Khutbah
Our Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam prohibited whatever acts lead to the imitation of the polytheists to such an extent that one of the Jews said about him: "This man does not wish to set aside any of our affairs until he acts in nonconformity with it." (Muslim).

It is also reported that the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam forbade Muslims from offering prayers after dawn until the sun rises and following the afternoon prayer until sunset. He explained that the sun rises and sets between the horns of the devil and at this time, the polytheists prostrate before it. It is well-known that a believer never prostrates himself to anything except Allaah; most people may not even be aware that the sun rises and sets between the horns of the devil and that the polytheists prostrate before it, yet, the Prophet sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam commanded Muslims not to pray at this time so as not to imitate the polytheists in any way.

Have mosques ever been built on the ruins of pagan temples? I just wanted to ask.

Imitating the People of the Book and the non-Arab polytheists will surely lead to some degree of affection towards them. For this reason also, imitation is prohibited in order to block the way before such love transpires and to prevent allegiance to them; this is aside from the legal evidences that prohibit such imitation. It is plainly evident that some people who copy the polytheists in their clothes, manners, traditions or speak their language, harbor love and admiration for them. In this way, the polytheists succeed in disseminating ideas such as globalization and a universal religion which affect some sick-hearted Muslims; all of these aim at weakening the Muslim character and identity. Whenever a person objects to such ideas, he is labeled as an introvert, an isolationist and even a narrow-minded person alienated from this world and who should have died in his cradle.

Oh, The LORD, why this is so?

Such people seem to ask why the bells of churches do not chime along with the minarets reverberating "Allaah is the Greatest." They ask why there are not many religions being practiced in the Arabian Peninsula, but they forget or seem to forget that the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: "There must not be two religions in the Arabian Peninsula.” (Maalik & Ahmad).

I see that you work the spirit of division. You'r not uniting, but alienating.

Allaah says that which means: “And never will the Jews and the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say: ‘Indeed, the guidance of Allaah is the [only] guidance.’ If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allaah no protector or helper.” (Al-Baqarah: 120). He also says that which means: "They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike…” (An-Nisaa’: 89).

Course, their will be a difference in views. We just want man to unite, not divide. I don't care for the affairs of 'religion'. The LORD is all that matters.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Doe's that mean that we are free to decide if we join you in your festivals?

[doorster]

Have mosques ever been built on the ruins of pagan temples? I just wanted to ask

our Mosque in England is an out of use former Chucch

[aamirsaab]

Doe's that mean that we are free to decide if we join you in your festivals?

Yep it does. But I don't see how anyone would not want to go to a samosa party. Unless you happen to hate triangle-shaped pastry.

[NazariteofEhyah]

our Mosque in England is an out of use former Chucch

But don't you have a problem with that?

[NazariteofEhyah]

Yep it does. But I don't see how anyone would not want to go to a samosa party. Unless you happen to hate triangle-shaped pastry.

It would turn out that I wouldn't. Everytime a Muslim colleaque invites me to a event, I never do come. I am not a Muslim so I would stand out

[aamirsaab]

It would turn out that I wouldn't. Everytime a Muslim colleaque invites me to a event, I never do come. I am not a Muslim so I would stand out

Do you eat meat? If yes, we have meat samosas
Are you a veggie kind of dude? If yes, we have veggie samosas.

Try going to the next muslim party you are invited to. Who know's maybe you will meet some new and awesome people. At the very least, you'll get free food.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Do you eat meat? If yes, we have meat samosas
Are you a veggie kind of dude? If yes, we have veggie samosas.

Try going to the next muslim party you are invited to. Who know's maybe you will meet some new and awesome people. At the very least, you'll get free food.

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

[Far7an]

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

Amirsaab never said that, and I'm sure if you read his posts you would know that it's not in his nature to even imply anything of the sort :).

[aamirsaab]

No, I do not eat meat. I am a vegetarian.

No problemo, we have veggie samosas too.

Your saying that Nazarite's I know are not awesome?

Nope. I'm saying you could meet more awesome people.
Example:
I know awesome people who happen to be Hindu.
I also know awesome people who happen to be Sikh, Christian, Aethiest, african-american, chinese.
I therefore know a large amount of awesome people.

If awesome people are like chocolates, then I am Mr Willy Wonka.

[NazariteofEhyah]

No problemo, we have veggie samosas too.



Nope. I'm saying you could meet more awesome people.
Example:
I know awesome people who happen to be Hindu.
I also know awesome people who happen to be Sikh, Christian, Aethiest, african-american, chinese.
I therefore know a large amount of awesome people.

If awesome people are like chocolates, then I am Mr Willy Wonka.

Sorry, caps amount to idolatry!

I'd rather not use awesome, but humble.

[NazariteofEhyah]

Amirsaab never said that, and I'm sure if you read his posts you would know that it's not in his nature to even imply anything of the sort :).

Forgive me of this trespass. Maybe the later of mhy post, I my thoughts were not truely positive.

[Thinker]

Ok for the ''division'' part. Yes, it does create a division. But, .

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

[aamirsaab]

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

If you are complaining about a 'them and us' attitude, you can stop since all communities, ideologies and religions have a them and us attitude - Islam is just a little more upfront about it.

Besides, I don't see how not imitating the disbelievers is detrimental to society when what is not being imitated are the following:
* Adultery
* Alcohol consumption
* Gambling.

Oh and dresscode? It's not about being different from the enemy (neccessarily) - it's about covering yourself and blending in.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

If you are complaining about a 'them and us' attitude, you can stop since all communities, ideologies and religions have a them and us attitude - Islam is just a little more upfront about it.

I agree with Thinker.

I can't think of a more explicitly divisive major ideology than Islam. Can you?

Peace

[alcurad]

rather, people's attitudes towards it are the problem, muslims and non-muslims alike, truth is hard to swallow, culture not so-for most-.

[Thinker]

Besides, I don't see how not imitating the disbelievers is detrimental to society when what is not being imitated are the following:
* Adultery
* Alcohol consumption
* Gambling.

What's that got to do with what you wear?

Oh and dresscode? It's not about being different from the enemy (neccessarily) - it's about covering yourself and blending in.

Blending in with whom?

[Muezzin]

You can but all you like - division is division and a divided communtiy is not good and attempting to immitate the life style and dress of a 7C warring tribe on the basis that you can be recognised as different from the enemy is not going to win any friends amongst your neighbours.

And imitating the lifestyle and dress of a 21 Century warring country will? :p

I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.

For the record, I tend to wear 'Western' style clothing. Not like a cowboy (can't find a decent hat), but not like a stereotypical Arab terrorist shouting 'Dirka dirka' either. People can dress how they wish, so long as they're covering what needs to be covered, and aren't attracting undue attention to themselves. As that can get a bit obnoxious.

It would turn out that I wouldn't. Everytime a Muslim colleaque invites me to a event, I never do come. I am not a Muslim so I would stand out

Aw man. I hope my non-Muslim friends don't have that attitude when I invite them to my eventual wedding. I mean, there would be laddoos and everything!

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


I agree with Thinker.

I can't think of a more explicitly divisive major ideology than Islam. Can you?

Peace

As I said: Islam is just more upfront about it.

What's that got to do with what you wear?

Nothing, I was talking about them and us attitude and why in Islam it shouldn't be a problem.

Blending in with whom?

Society. For the most part it works - it's just some folk want to make a big deal out of a hijabi or niqabi because God forbid women have an identity that is contrary to social norm!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

As I said: Islam is just more upfront about it.

So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

[Thinker]

And imitating the lifestyle and dress of a 21 Century warring country will? :p

In the 21C western world the warriors wear uniform identifying themselves as soldiers

QUOTE=Muezzin;1121584]I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.
[/QUOTE]

Because it's divisive and most people think division is a bad thing.

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

Depends on the type of division. If it's akin to slavery, then no of course not. But, if the division is to the betterment of society then clearly it is not a bad thing.

Typically, human nature dictates a them and us attitude for safety reasons (more than anything else anyway) and that isn't a problem. What is a problem is if that division causes hostility. Then, clearly, it is problematic.

Again I'd like to reiterrate, Islam is a full system. Analysing one particular aspect in and of itself and then getting hot and bothered about it is silly. Take it as a complete system and it will make sense.

[Muezzin]

In the 21C western world the warriors wear uniform identifying themselves as soldiers

Yet you generalising Arab dress is okay?

I mean, by that same token, you're saying all traditional Arab dress is that of 7C Arab tribal warriors. Which is ignorant, offensive, and hilarious.

I really don't get why people daring to dress differently is such a big issue. It's one of those to which I can only reply 'Get out more'.

Because it's divisive and most people think division is a bad thing.

Apart from maths teachers...

Anyway, is a Sikh being divisive when he wears a turban and a beard? Is a Jew being divisive when he wears a skullcap, or a hat, a long coat and a beard? Is a nun being divisive when she wears a habit? Is a monk being divisive when he wears a robe and takes a vow of silence? Are the Hare Krishnas by McDonald's being divisive when they dress in their own way and sing their own songs to passersby? Are Goths being divisive when they dress in black and are generally Goth-like?

If you can't stand people being different, then say so, but being different is not in and of itself divisive. Saying that it is makes you look like a bit of an out-of-touch, intolerant wazzock.

As to your notion of 'All division is bad' - try explaining that when you intentionally use the Ladies' toilets.

As to 'most people think'... ad populum much?

Greetings,


So do you think that encouraging division among people (in an upfront way or otherwise) is generally a good thing, a bad thing, or a neutral thing?


Peace

I know you're not asking me, but I'm answering because... because... I can. :D

That question doesn't really have a simple answer. It depends on the division itself, why it is encouraged, whether it promotes emnity or simply represents an alternative form of expression etc.

People dressing differently to the norm is, to my mind, an extremely trivial difference to call promoting a negative division. I tend to perceive a person who thinks that such trivia promotes negative division as pretty close-minded yet with the good taste to have a limitless supply of Werther's Originals. But I suppose that says more about me - though if I ate too many boiled sweets my dentist would have a fit while checking my gnashers.

[Thinker]

People dressing differently to the norm is, to my mind, an extremely trivial difference to call promoting a negative division. I tend to perceive a person who thinks that such trivia promotes negative division as pretty close-minded .

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect). There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

[wth1257]

Yep it does. But I don't see how anyone would not want to go to a samosa party. Unless you happen to hate triangle-shaped pastry.

:raging::raging::raging:

I always found triangles to be the most smug of all the geometric forms

:raging::raging::raging:

:p

[Muezzin]

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect).

Look who's talking.

There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And I could point you to a load of 'non-comformist' type non-Muslims who dress differently for exactly that reason - to appear different from the norm. Somehow I doubt you would find these people a threat to integration, unity, peace, and strength in numbers (TM).

I wouldn't find them a threat at all. Let people dress the way they want, so long as they comply with the law. What do you find so hard to understand about that?

And, really, saying people who dress differently for the sake of being different are divisive buttholes is one of the most absurd, Daily Mail-esque tirades I've heard in a long time.

As for disliking people 'making a visual point that they're different'? I don't suppose you're very well acquanited with the world of women's fashion. I suppose all involved are being divisive and are a threat to Strength through Unity, Unity through Faith.

Am I still missing your point, or simply disagreeing with it?

Or in your mind, are those two outcomes indistinguishable?

And, more to the point, which of these single paragraphs will you choose to reply to, and how many of them will you completely ignore? Come back, next post, same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

The part where anyone with a dissenting opinion of what constitutes integration, unity and peace is painted as a hypocritical advocate of segregation, disunity and intolerance.

In essence you are saying: 'I don't like the way these people dress. They are Bad People for dressing that way, for that reason. They should dress the way I like them to dress, for the reasons I like. Then they will be Good People.'

In essence I am saying: 'Don't be ridiculous. Get out more and open your mind. You'll be a happier person.'

Also - love how you completely ignored this little snippet:

'Anyway, is a Sikh being divisive when he wears a turban and a beard? Is a Jew being divisive when he wears a skullcap, or a hat, a long coat and a beard? Is a nun being divisive when she wears a habit? Is a monk being divisive when he wears a robe and takes a vow of silence? Are the Hare Krishnas by McDonald's being divisive when they dress in their own way and sing their own songs to passersby? Are Goths being divisive when they dress in black and are generally Goth-like?'

Great tactics. If you don't like what the other guy is saying, just accuse him of deliberately missing the point and ignore any points that damage your own. Consider a career in politics.

[YusufNoor]

You are missing the point (purposely I suspect). There is nothing wrong with dressing differently there is something wrong with making a conscious decision to dressing differently than other groups just to make a visual point that you are different – that is divisive.

And returning to your reply to my quote . . . . .
I despair because I love my country and want all the citizens of that country to live in peace and harmony and work together towards common goals aimed at providing us with a secure and prosperous future.

You said: Is that so? From reading your posts, I think that you want people to conform to your own personal standards of The Way Things Ought To Be, and if they don't, they are not to be tolerated. Or rather, a cause for 'despair'.

Response . . . .My personal standards; I encourage, integration, unity, peace and tolerance those are my standards and I urge others to conform to those standards. If my neighbours advocate segregation, disunity and intolerance I consider that intolerable. What part of that do you object to?

hmmmm,

Religions:
Definition Field info displayed for all countries in alpha order
Roman Catholic 83%-88%, Protestant 2%, Jewish 1%, Muslim 5%-10%, unaffiliated 4%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/fr.html


then how can you be agnostic in a country that is over 80% Roman Catholic?

are you trying to be divisive?

you need to run out and buy some statues and crosses. you can put some of them near your lawn jockey. get ready for some Hail Mary's and Our Fathers. and rosaries, you need some of them!

and that Catholic Church has always been so peaceful....

ooh, and confession! you need to go see some guy in a funny suit, don't forget to call him daddy! or father or something; he's waiting for you, IN HIS DRESS, to go confess to him your sins!

run along now and be a good little conformist!

and, btw, the Pope doesn't like you interacting with Muslims, so i reckon you'll need to be off to some pron sites! don't worry though, you can confess later.

on Friday, skip the fish too, OK?

:rollseyes

[Thinker]

Also - love how you completely ignored this little snippet:

'Anyway, is a Sikh being divisive when he wears a turban and a beard? Is a Jew being divisive when he wears a skullcap, or a hat, a long coat and a beard? Is a nun being divisive when she wears a habit? Is a monk being divisive when he wears a robe and takes a vow of silence? Are the Hare Krishnas by McDonald's being divisive when they dress in their own way and sing their own songs to passersby? Are Goths being divisive when they dress in black and are generally Goth-like?'

Great tactics. If you don't like what the other guy is saying, just accuse him of deliberately missing the point and ignore any points that damage your own. Consider a career in politics.

I don’t know why Sikhs wear turbans or Jews wear skull caps, I do know that Christians wear crosses and I know that some people wear shirts showing their support for football clubs. In the same way I can see know wrong in a Muslim wearing a shirt or piece of jewellery bearing some Islamic symbol. All those groups might wear something showing their support for what they believe but that is a long way from advocating being ‘different’ is a requirement – that is divisive.

Quote from: http://www.islamicnetwork.com/index....ijab_the_veil/
Difference from the Clothing of Unbelievers ‎
‎Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron coloured garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎

[Thinker]

and, btw, the Pope doesn't like you interacting with Muslims, so i reckon you'll need to be off to some pron sites! don't worry though, you can confess later.

on Friday, skip the fish too, OK?

:rollseyes

If the Pope advocate segragation he is wrong. But what that's got to do with me I am not sure, perhaps you need to revisit the definition of agnostic!

[Muezzin]

I don’t know why Sikhs wear turbans

To hold in their very long hair, which they believe is a gift from God, and to proudly identify themselves as Sikhs.

or Jews wear skull caps,

To show respect before God and to proudly identify themselves as Jews.

I do know that Christians wear crosses and I know that some people wear shirts showing their support for football clubs. In the same way I can see know wrong in a Muslim wearing a shirt or piece of jewellery bearing some Islamic symbol.

But God forbid if a Muslim man grows a beard or a Muslim woman such as my mother wears a headscarf. They're both obviously being divisive and by implication deserve any abuse headed their way.

All those groups might wear something showing their support for what they believe but that is a long way from advocating being ‘different’ is a requirement – that is divisive.

Argh. Again, being different for the sake of being different is not divisive in and of itself. Would you call 'non-conformists' divisive? I wouldn't. I'd call them a little confused because they're still identifying themselves in relation to a norm, as opposed to their own unique identities, but I wouldn't call them divisive.

Quote from: http://www.islamicnetwork.com/index....ijab_the_veil/
Difference from the Clothing of Unbelievers ‎
‎Her clothing must not resemble the clothing of the unbelievers. This is a general ruling of the ‘Sharia’h which ‎encompasses not only dress but also such things as manners, customs, religious practices and festivities, transactions, ‎etc. Indeed, dissimilarity with unbelievers is a precedent that was established by the first generation of Islam.
‘Abdullah ‎ibn ‘Amr ibn Al-’Aas said, “The Prophet (saw) saw me wearing two saffron coloured garments, so he said: ‎‎“Indeed, these are the clothes of ‘Kuffar’ (unbelievers), so do not wear them.” [Sahih Muslim]‎

And there are equal schools of thought that interpret the rules of dress such that as long as the relevant areas of the body are covered, and the person is not attracting undue attention to themselves (e.g. with very tight clothing or extremely garish colours), such clothing is Islamically permissible.

Otherwise, we would be in the silly situation where Muslims do not conform at all to dress codes in workplaces, restaurants etc. Muslims are not supposed to be nuisances. But when people, regardless of their religion, in their own time, dress just the way they like, it is their right so long as they do not break the law in so doing. Calling them divisive because their motives are to differentiate themselves from the norm is an absurd and fruitless folly.

Oh, also, there's something on the very first page of this thread that clarifies matters (bolding mine):

Guidelines concerning imitation of the kuffaar

Question:
What are the definitions of imitating the west? Does everything that is modern and new and has come to us from the west imply imitation of them? In other words, when can we say that something is haraam because it is an imitation of the kuffaar?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.
It was narrated that Ibn ‘Umar said: “The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Whoever imitates a people is one of them.’” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, al-Libaas, 3512. Al-Albaani said in Saheeh Abi Dawood, (it is) hasan saheeh. No. 3401).

Al-Munaawi and al-‘Alqami said: i.e., dressing as they dress, following their way of life in clothes and some of the things they do.

Al-Qaari said: i.e., whoever imitates the kuffaar, such as in how one dresses, etc., or imitates the evil and immoral people, or the Sufis or the righteous, is one of the people whom he imitates, whether they are good or bad.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Siraat al-Mustaqeem: Imaam Ahmad and others quoted this hadeeth as evidence. This hadeeth at the very least implies that it is haraam to imitate them, as Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “... And if any amongst you takes them [Jews and Christians] as Awliyaa’ [friends, helpers]), then surely, he is one of them…”[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

This is similar to the view of ‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr who said: “Whoever settles in the land of the mushrikeen and celebrates their Nawroz (new year) and Mahrajaan (festival) and imitates them until he dies will be gathered with them on the Day of Resurrection.” This may be interpreted as referring to absolute imitation which implies kufr and as meaning that imitation in part is therefore haraam; or it may be interpreted as meaning that he is one of them to the extent that he imitates them, whether it is in ideas of kufr, sin or partaking in a ritual. It was narrated from Ibn ‘Umar that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade imitating the non-Arabs and said, “Whoever imitates a people is one of them.” This was also mentioned by al-Qaadi Abu Ya’laa. This was quoted by more than one of the scholars to show that it is makrooh to imitate forms of dress of the non-Muslims which are not known among the Muslims.

See ‘Awn al-Ma’bood Sharh Sunan Abi Dawood.

Imitating the kuffaar falls into two categories:

Imitation that is haraam and imitation that is permitted:

The first type is imitation that is haraam: this means knowingly doing things that are unique characteristics of the religion of the kuffaar and that have not been referred to in our religion. This is haraam and it may be a major sin; in some cases a person may even become a kaafir by doing that, according to the evidence, whether a person does that because he agrees with the kuffaar, or because of his whims and desires, or because of some specious arguments which make him feel that doing it will being him benefit in this world and the next. If it is asked, is the one who does that out of ignorance a sinner, such as one who celebrates Christmas? The answer is that the one who is ignorant is not a sinner because he was unaware, but he has to be told, and if he persists he becomes a sinner.

The second type is imitation that is permissible. This means doing something which is not originally taken from the kuffaar, but the kuffaar do it too. This does not involve a prohibition on resembling them, but one may miss out on the benefits of differing from them.

Imitating or resembling the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) and others with regard to worldly matters is permissible only when the following conditions are met:

1 – That should not be any of their traditions or rituals by which they are distinguished.

2 – That should not be part of their religion. A matter can be proven to be part of their religion though a trustworthy source, such as an aayah of the Qur’aan or a hadeeth of His Messenger, or via well-established reports, such as the prostration of greeting which was permitted to the previous nations.

3 – That should not be anything in Islam which refers specifically to that matter. If there is a specific reference in Islam, either approving or disapproving of it, then we must follow what our religion says about it.

4 – This resemblance should not lead to going against any of the commands of sharee’ah.

5 – That should not involve celebrating any of their festivals.

6 – The resemblance should be only according to what is needed, and no more.

See al-Sunan wa’l-Athaar fi’l-Nahy ‘an al-Tashabbuh bi’l-Kuffaar by Suhayl Hasan, p. 58-59

Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid

Source

[YusufNoor]

If the Pope advocate segragation he is wrong. But what that's got to do with me I am not sure, perhaps you need to revisit the definition of agnostic!

France is over 80% Roman Catholic, and according to the big brother crap you preach around here, YOU NEED TO CONFORM!

being agnostic in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

being a "thinker" in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

not supporting the rape of youngsters in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

not painting "easter eggs" in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

not bowing and scraping before a priest IN A DRESS in a country with 80% Roman Catholicis divisive!

not cowtowing to the local clergy and the Pope in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

your pretending to be morally superior to the rest of the Pope's little flock in a country with 80% Roman Catholic is divisive!

you only spew that crap so you can feel better than everyone.

WHY AREN'T YOU CONFORMING??

:rollseyes

and don't forget, you need statues, lots of statues!

[rpwelton]

Islam does not forbid us from dressing as non-Muslims do. What is prohibited is to imitate the dress particular to other religious groups. So we should not dress like hindu priests (the reference to the hadith about saffron-colored garments that Thinker quoted), nor should we dress like hacidic Jews, or wear crosses like Christians.

Islam does not encourage complete separation from society. I mean, what did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) wear? He wore the clothes of the Quraysh, who were pagan. But this was the clothing of all Arabs, believers and non-believers; thus the clothes did not denote a particular belief.

If I lived in colonial India back in the 1800's, I would probably have an issue with dressing like the British when the traditional Indian dress was still prominent amongst the Indians, because this would be seen as a way to destroy culture. However, if I lived in India now, I would have no problem wearing Western clothing, because this has become part of their culture and is no longer exclusively British.

Hopefully that all makes sense. I attended a seminar this last weekend which dealt particularly with these issues, and it cleared up a lot of misconceptions people have about how we should dress as Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad actually encouraged us to conform to the culture of the place we are in, as long as what we do does not go against Islam. He did not come to start a new fashion trend or completely destroy culture; he merely came to change that which goes against Islam.

However, that being said, we still need to maintain our Islamic identity. Part of this is the beard we wear as men and the hijab for women. If we like, we can go around in Arab or Pakistani clothing to project our Islamic identity, but we are not required to do so (nor is it any more sunnah to do so).

[Muezzin]

Islam does not forbid us from dressing as non-Muslims do. What is prohibited is to imitate the dress particular to other religious groups. So we should not dress like hindu priests (the reference to the hadith about saffron-colored garments that Thinker quoted), nor should we dress like hacidic Jews, or wear crosses like Christians.

Islam does not encourage complete separation from society. I mean, what did Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) wear? He wore the clothes of the Quraysh, who were pagan. But this was the clothing of all Arabs, believers and non-believers; thus the clothes did not denote a particular belief.

If I lived in colonial India back in the 1800's, I would probably have an issue with dressing like the British when the traditional Indian dress was still prominent amongst the Indians, because this would be seen as a way to destroy culture. However, if I lived in India now, I would have no problem wearing Western clothing, because this has become part of their culture and is no longer exclusively British.

Hopefully that all makes sense. I attended a seminar this last weekend which dealt particularly with these issues, and it cleared up a lot of misconceptions people have about how we should dress as Muslims. The Prophet Muhammad actually encouraged us to conform to the culture of the place we are in, as long as what we do does not go against Islam. He did not come to start a new fashion trend or completely destroy culture; he merely came to change that which goes against Islam.

However, that being said, we still need to maintain our Islamic identity. Part of this is the beard we wear as men, or the hijab or women. If we like, we can go around in Arab or Pakistani clothing to project our Islamic identity, but we are not required to do so (nor is it any more sunnah to do so).

Once again calm rationality triumphs over my frantic ramblings. :)

Very well said.

[alcurad]

the bead was what the arabs 'did' too, using the same reasoning, it is not a part of 'Islamic identity' either, good post otherwise:)

[rpwelton]

the bead was what the arabs 'did' too, using the same reasoning, it is not a part of 'Islamic identity' either, good post otherwise:)

The beard was a custom of the Arabs, however, Muhammad (peace be upon him) specifically instructed the believers to grow their beards. So we see this as being evident of a specific command regardless of cultural traditions. Whereas he did not tell people of different cultures (ie, Romans who became Muslim) to wear thobes or turbans.

[Uthman]

Again I'd like to reiterrate, Islam is a full system. Analysing one particular aspect in and of itself and then getting hot and bothered about it is silly. Take it as a complete system and it will make sense.

I have to second that. If you don't believe in Muhammad's (pbuh) prophethood, then you have to admit that the man was a genius. If you look at Islam's teachings as a complete system, you will see that it's teachings put together contains a recipe for a strong Muslim society. Genius.

[Yanal]

But not for everything,I remember a forum in which I asked a question about putting my hair as a friend who is a disbeliever,the answer came from a scholar and not a perspective,it is said all haaram things that you do and copy a disbeliever you will get punished but things that are not haaram such as growing hair you can do.

In conclusion most things a disbeliever does is haaram and if you follow you will be imitating them but some are not.

[rpwelton]

But not for everything,I remember a forum in which I asked a question about putting my hair as a friend who is a disbeliever,the answer came from a scholar and not a perspective,it is said all haaram things that you do and copy a disbeliever you will get punished but things that are not haaram such as growing hair you can do.

In conclusion most things a disbeliever does is haaram and if you follow you will be imitating them but some are not.

Just out of curiosity, how exactly did you want to style your hair that the scholar said is haraam?

I would also like to add, however, that there are some hairstyles or ways of dressing that while I'm not sure if it would be haraam or not, would make a person identify with a certain group of people. So just from an observational standpoint (and certainly not a scholarly or fatwa-giving standpoint) you could say that we should stay away from looking like certain groups of non-believers, but we can't generalize and say all non-believers. I mean, there's not going to be a way to wear your hair that is different from a non-believer, but you can avoid wearing your hair in a way which associates you with a particular type of person or group that may have negative connotations from an Islamic point of view.