Polygyny Advice Needed

[tigersabre]

As salaamu alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu,

Alhamdullillaah, I've been blessed with the opportunity of being able to seek a second wife, and while I'm searching, I'm also preparing myself for that journey.

I'm looking to speak to 3 brothers who are already involved in "successful" polygynous relationships to seek advice from them. Since I've already been married, I know that marriage is huge responsibility, and it doubles and becomes more difficult as more spouses are added.

I understand that managing time, finances, and jealousies are some of the challenges, but I'm looking to learn more, as there is always more, I believe, than others see or say. For example, I was informed that the children also miss their fathers a lot and this is more difficult for mothers than even sharing.

If anyone knows a brother who has been successful in this type of relationship and would not mind me contacting them and asking advice privately (if they don't wish to do so publically), please send me a private message and let me know further details.

Jazakallaah khayr in advance!

[AnonymousPoster]

isn't polygamy illegal in the united states?

[جوري]

I guess some states in the US allow for this Utah or the vicinity?

If you don't mind me asking ya akhi... how does your first wife feel about this?

:w:

[chosen]

it is illegal in every state..without exception. why do you want a second wife and have you considered how this will effect your first wife and how it will make her fell.

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[wilberhum]

I guess some states in the US allow for this Utah or the vicinity?

If you don't mind me asking ya akhi... how does your first wife feel about this?

:w:

It is against the law everyplace in the US.

True that in Utah, where the practice is more prominent than anywhere else in the US, law enforcement officials often turn a blind eye.

I'm sure things have change now. Warren Jess is in prison and I don’t think he will be the last.

Anyway Illinois is not Utah, so you better seek some legal advice too.

[snakelegs]

i too, am wondering how does your wife feel about #2?
also, are you sure you can provide for 2 families and give of yourself equally?
(i can't imagine why anyone would want to take on that much responsibility)

[chosen]

even if your current wife is okay with it know..many problems are bound to happen in the future to change her mind.. if you have a good women and she is a good wife and mother why would you do this??? It baffles the mind.

[ashley66]

I hope you dont mind me advising you to please be honest with the first wife. When you are ready to embark on your journey, tell her about it and tell her how you feel. InsyaAllah, it may be hard for her but when she realise that you are honest to her, and your feelings to her is still the same and that you respect her opinion even if her consent is not required, insyaAllah she will support you. Hablum minAllah , hablum minannaas. Of course try to be fair even if your feeling to one wife may be more than towards the other. You gotta be fair in material and physical, while what you feel inside you can't divide mathematically so don't show this difference if there is any.

[Malaikah]

:sl:

Personally I don't think it is our business to interfere with the brother, if his first wife is cool with it all. It is his business, not ours.

About polygamy being illegal in the US-does this only cover marriages that are official according to US law? The brother will be married to the second Islamicly, not 'legally'. Is that illegal?

I don't see how they can stop that. I mean, if people are allowed to run around sleeping with as many people as they like in one night- how can they stop someone from living honourably with a second wife- who is not even considered a wife by US law, but is by Islamic law?

[syilla]

:salamext:

InshaAllah you'll find one akhee :)

[Grace Seeker]

:sl:

Personally I don't think it is our business to interfere with the brother, if his first wife is cool with it all. It is his business, not ours.

About polygamy being illegal in the US-does this only cover marriages that are official according to US law? The brother will be married to the second Islamicly, not 'legally'. Is that illegal?

I don't see how they can stop that. I mean, if people are allowed to run around sleeping with as many people as they like in one night- how can they stop someone from living honourably with a second wife- who is not even considered a wife by US law, but is by Islamic law?

What that means is that the second wife will be in the same position to the husband as if they were not married at all. She is not likely to be covered under any sort of insurance, not are her children, even though by him. Should he become ill, the first wife could keep the second one from even visiting him in the hospital. But, as far as whether it is illegal for them to have an Islamic wedding, no it is not. It just will not be recognized. The illustration of living together is a good example. Those are also not officially or legally recognized relationships, even if they are many years in duration.

I don't know what the status would be if they were to venture to some country where Islamic marriages are recognized and then return to the USA to live.

[Malaikah]

What that means is that the second wife will be in the same position to the husband as if they were not married at all. She is not likely to be covered under any sort of insurance, not are her children, even though by him. Should he become ill, the first wife could keep the second one from even visiting him in the hospital. But, as far as whether it is illegal for them to have an Islamic wedding, no it is not. It just will not be recognized. The illustration of living together is a good example. Those are also not officially or legally recognized relationships, even if they are many years in duration.

That is what I suspected- it is not illegal, though not a very good position to be in either (i.e. no legal rights).

[AHMED_GUREY]

Stick to one wife brother, unless the situation calls for it.

[syilla]

Try reading this book akhee...

source

http://polygynousblessings.blogspot.com/

[Malaikah]

:sl:

syilla, is this one of those "my experiences with why polygamy is evil" kind of book, or is it actually worth reading?

[syilla]

:sl:

syilla, is this one of those "my experiences with why polygamy is evil" kind of book, or is it actually worth reading?

;D

lol...is it actually worth reading..

try reading her blog...from the first entry...there is some review too on her book..

[tigersabre]

isn't polygamy illegal in the united states?

Polygyny is illegal in the sense that you can't get legal rights established for wives after the first according to state and federal law. However, one can still have it recognized by Allah subhaana wa ta'aala :D

As far as the American judicial system goes, it'll simply be a wife and a mistress.

[tigersabre]

I guess some states in the US allow for this Utah or the vicinity?

If you don't mind me asking ya akhi... how does your first wife feel about this?

:w:

It's a funny story. I prayed istikhaara regarding the issue, asking Allah subhaana wa ta'aala if he wanted me to do this or not (take more wives) because while I know it is a Sunnah, I wasn't sure if I would be considered just enough to handle it. I further made du'aa that if it would be good for me to do, that my wife initiate the whole process (because I truly love my wife and did not want to hurt her feelings, if it came out that I should do it).

The next morning, my wife came and told me that due to the shortage of practicing brothers, and the sisters who are practicing that are experiencing fitnah as a result, that I should take a second wife. She began suggesting the names of some of her friends.

Since that time, she's been on the lookout for practicing sisters, and upon the recommendation of one of my Islamic studies teachers, I'm working out the details for financially supporting a second family and I'm looking to speak with other men who have been involved in such relationships and would like them to share their experiences so I have a sense from a man's side what sort of unexpected issues could come up.

So, to answer your question, my wife is good with it, and helping me search, alhamdullillaah.

[جوري]

ok akhi al7mdlilah..so long as it is comfortable for all of you..May Allah bless all your marriages insha'Allah

:w:

[tigersabre]

it is illegal in every state..without exception. why do you want a second wife and have you considered how this will effect your first wife and how it will make her fell.

I want a second (and third, and fourth) wife because:

1. I work in daw'ah, and my goal is to influence enough people to realize that the purpose of their life is worshipping Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, and to better live their lives according to how He wishes us to. Daw'ah, however, starts at home, and the first group of people to influence is one's children. My current wife and I plan on having as many children as possible, but in a rational manner (spaced out every 2.5 years, so that the children can complete the course of nursing and the mother can get a break as well).

Along with that, we both see that the best thing we can do for this Ummah is bring in more practicing, righteous children into the world (or, at least try to train up as many as possible), and having more wives is a natural extension of this

2. I prayed istikhaara regarding having more wives, and it came out very positively, in the manner I asked. Consequently, what is best for my deen in this life and the Hereafter is this.

3. Man was created to be polygynous - it's in our natures, so naturally, I have a physiological inclination towards it. It's the propaganda machine of Iblis and his cronies that tries to condition our minds into practices that are twisted and corrupted, and away from our natural disposition.

Finally, it's nothing wrong with my wife. Actually, our lives are very happy, seeking the pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala. We're just want to expand the happiness :D

[tigersabre]

i too, am wondering how does your wife feel about #2?
also, are you sure you can provide for 2 families and give of yourself equally?
(i can't imagine why anyone would want to take on that much responsibility)

The promise of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala in the Qur'aan is that He will provide when you are married, and that has been my experience. When one places their tawakkul in Allah subhaana wa ta'aala and ties their camel by putting forth their best effort, things have a way of working out.

When I first got married, I told my wife I had no job at the time, but she was keen on protecting herself and said she wished to marry anyway, so we both placed our trust in Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, our families agreed, and we went from there.

Our first 3 months of marriage, we lived off of wedding money ($4000), and we had a very smalling nikaah and we didn't say anything like "No Boxed Gifts" or something like that. When we got to the last $1000, I received a job as a researcher assistant in the computer science department, and that went on for 7 months. During that time, my wife became pregnant and during the last trimester, I applied for and got a job at Motorola as a software engineer, and I still work there now, alhamdullillaah.

I spoke with one of my Islamic studies teacher about the same question you asked when discussing the prospect of a second wife as he had done the same, and he was like me, with very little money, although he's an Imam in Seattle (graduated from the college of shari'ah in madeenah university). He said that when he married again, the resources came in, he just came his tawakkul in Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Another of my teachers told me the same - create a gameplan, and go from there. Start searching now, work your plan, and leave the rest to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, so that's where I'm at right now.

[tigersabre]

Try reading this book akhee...

source

http://polygynousblessings.blogspot.com/

My wife is actually doing a lot of research herself, looking to see how other women have experienced polygyny. Her experience is not completely analogous because i didn't bring it upon her as normally happens to first wives.

We actually have one book, Polygyny: A Way Through, from Darussalam which was written by two sisters - it's very well researched and very well written. I read it myself to try to gain a better understanding as well.

Of course, we also have the classic Bilal Philips book as well on the topic, and that's an interesting read as well, but that is more on the theoretical side of things rather than the practical, as was covered in the book written by the two sisters.

Jazakallaah khayr for the link - I'll check it out and maybe send it to my wife as well, insha'Allah.

[niler]

ol d best bro but hope u tel her abot it. it really feels bad to know that someone u trust doesnt include u in such a major decision.

[niler]

ok i hadnot read everything wen i posted.so it doesnt count..

thats really nice. u have the ryt reasons 4 maryying . may Allah give u wat is good in this world n the next.. n give u pios children..

[AnonymousPoster]

:sl:

Personally I don't think it is our business to interfere with the brother, if his first wife is cool with it all. It is his business, not ours.

About polygamy being illegal in the US-does this only cover marriages that are official according to US law? The brother will be married to the second Islamicly, not 'legally'. Is that illegal?

I don't see how they can stop that. I mean, if people are allowed to run around sleeping with as many people as they like in one night- how can they stop someone from living honourably with a second wife- who is not even considered a wife by US law, but is by Islamic law?

but if they marry according to islamic law and not US law she would be legally deprived of the benefits of marriage provided to the first wife as a matter of law... inheritance, tax benefits, recognition of their children et c. and isn't polygamy only allowed in islamic law when the husband can treat each woman exactly fairly?

[tigersabre]

but if they marry according to islamic law and not US law she would be legally deprived of the benefits of marriage provided to the first wife as a matter of law... inheritance, tax benefits, recognition of their children et c. and isn't polygamy only allowed in islamic law when the husband can treat each woman exactly fairly?

Salaam alaykum,

All of the above you mentioned are what the US government gives an individual with a recognized marriage. I'm not responsible for that. The US government is.

I'm responsible for what is in my possession to give (my income, and my personal time). I'm not responsible for tax benefits.

Further, our religion has a pre-determined inheritance distribution for wives, regardless of secular legal status, and that is what is upheld, insha'Allah :D

As for children, the children can take on the name of their father, and simply because we're not married, does not mean they cannot have any status related to me, especially if I am financially supporting them.

[UmmSqueakster]

Your wife may find this yahoo group to be a good resource.


One thing to me that seems to kill any thought of polygany in the US is health insurance and work benefits. You can only have one wife as a beneficiary. That means all subsequent wives won't have the same access to health care as the first wife. Major inequality, which is a major no no when it comes to polygany. Giving birth is expensive. If wives #2, 3 and 4 don't have health insurance, who is going to pay for it, the government? That seems scuzzy to me.

[tigersabre]

Your wife may find this yahoo group to be a good resource.


One thing to me that seems to kill any thought of polygany in the US is health insurance and work benefits. You can only have one wife as a beneficiary. That means all subsequent wives won't have the same access to health care as the first wife. Major inequality, which is a major no no when it comes to polygany. Giving birth is expensive. If wives #2, 3 and 4 don't have health insurance, who is going to pay for it, the government? That seems scuzzy to me.

Actually, the one who pays for health insurance regardless is the husband. I pay for it for my first wife and kids right now at a through work. One simply needs to provide the same coverage for their 2nd wife OR be able to provide medical care when the time comes, either one. The goal is not the money spent on health care - the goal is the health care. So long as its available, that's all you need.

Besides all that, one thing a lot of people don't realize is that if wife #2 doesn't work, theoretically, she has no income, but she's continuing to have kids. As a result, she may be entitled to other benefits.

[chosen]

so "marry" other women then have the welfare system provide for them..so you dont have to..interesting..and by the way really low..

[tigersabre]

so "marry" other women then have the welfare system provide for them..so you dont have to..interesting..and by the way really low..

Actually, I'm required to pay from my own income exactly what I give to one wife to another, so the government would not supplement anything that I'm responsible for.

What could happen, however, is that the tax benefits that wife #1 gets from the government could be taken in the form of benefits derived in other directions. So what I'm talking about here is not money that I'm already paying for equally for both (or all) wives - I'm talking about having the government cover what they would cover, but from a different angle.

From the perspective of Islamic law, the money she receives would be her own, and would no way lessen what I am required to provide for her.

Hope that clarifies it.

[Grace Seeker]

so "marry" other women then have the welfare system provide for them..so you dont have to..interesting..and by the way really low..

I don't think that is "low". The system was designed with a particular family structure in mind. I may be of a religious persuasion to agree with that concept, but I don't know that I am of a legal inclination to say that others have to construct their families using the way I would build mine as a model.

I want a second (and third, and fourth) wife because:

1. I work in daw'ah, and my goal is to influence enough people to realize that the purpose of their life is worshipping Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, and to better live their lives according to how He wishes us to. Daw'ah, however, starts at home, and the first group of people to influence is one's children. My current wife and I plan on having as many children as possible, but in a rational manner (spaced out every 2.5 years, so that the children can complete the course of nursing and the mother can get a break as well).

Along with that, we both see that the best thing we can do for this Ummah is bring in more practicing, righteous children into the world (or, at least try to train up as many as possible), and having more wives is a natural extension of this

2. I prayed istikhaara regarding having more wives, and it came out very positively, in the manner I asked. Consequently, what is best for my deen in this life and the Hereafter is this.

3. Man was created to be polygynous - it's in our natures, so naturally, I have a physiological inclination towards it. It's the propaganda machine of Iblis and his cronies that tries to condition our minds into practices that are twisted and corrupted, and away from our natural disposition.

Finally, it's nothing wrong with my wife. Actually, our lives are very happy, seeking the pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala. We're just want to expand the happiness :D

Tigersabre, personally I disagree with your position in point #3, but that it really irrelevant to the questions you are asking. It seems that you do have a good understanding of the legal statutes where you will be living and how these would effect each of the respective members of your family. And it seems that you understand the financial implications of those issues as well. Based on other information you have shared, I don't think that you are likely to be taking advantage of one woman at another's expense nor likely to abandon your children. I trust that any future wife would be made just as aware of as your are regarding the risks that she is taking and the way that the legal system would and would not protect her rights and their limitations. So, I shall put all those objections aside, and focus on one other thing that you mentioned which you may want to consider.

One of the things that you said was behind your desire to take a second wife was

My current wife and I plan on having as many children as possible, but in a rational manner (spaced out every 2.5 years, so that the children can complete the course of nursing and the mother can get a break as well).

Along with that, we both see that the best thing we can do for this Ummah is bring in more practicing, righteous children into the world (or, at least try to train up as many as possible), and having more wives is a natural extension of this.

As a fellow resident of Illinois, may I suggest to you that there is another way that you can accomplish the portion of your goals that I have highlighted. There is a great need for both foster parents and adoptive parents. I have done this for close to the very reasons you have given, and found it incredibly rewarding. I'm not really happy with myself for suggesting a way that you might train people up in the Ummah rather than in Christ, but to give honest advice I need to tell you that this is something you might wish to consider. In this way you would have as many children as you and your present wife could possible handle -- we stopped at 8, I know some that have many more -- and be able to provide legal protection to them all. One would even receive assistance from the government. (Not that I suggest that as a reason for doing it, but it does make it easier to provide care to more children than one might be otherwise able to.) Many of these are now adults on their own, but we are still mom and dad to all those who have chosen to remain in contact with us.

There are some other issues to deal with, and I would be happy to discuss those with you if you are interested. But I can assure you that the need is continuing and very great. So, it might be something to consider. And it would be away to accomplish this aspect of your life goals that does not include a 2nd marriage (be it Islamic or otherwise).

[tigersabre]

I don't think that is "low". The system was designed with a particular family structure in mind. I may be of a religious persuasion to agree with that concept, but I don't know that I am of a legal inclination to say that others have to construct their families using the way I would build mine as a model.





Tigersabre, personally I disagree with your position in point #3, but that it really irrelevant to the questions you are asking. It seems that you do have a good understanding of the legal statutes where you will be living and how these would effect each of the respective members of your family. And it seems that you understand the financial implications of those issues as well. Based on other information you have shared, I don't think that you are likely to be taking advantage of one woman at another's expense nor likely to abandon your children. I trust that any future wife would be made just as aware of as your are regarding the risks that she is taking and the way that the legal system would and would not protect her rights and their limitations. So, I shall put all those objections aside, and focus on one other thing that you mentioned which you may want to consider.

One of the things that you said was behind your desire to take a second wife was

As a fellow resident of Illinois, may I suggest to you that there is another way that you can accomplish the portion of your goals that I have highlighted. There is a great need for both foster parents and adoptive parents. I have done this for close to the very reasons you have given, and found it incredibly rewarding. I'm not really happy with myself for suggesting a way that you might train people up in the Ummah rather than in Christ, but to give honest advice I need to tell you that this is something you might wish to consider. In this way you would have as many children as you and your present wife could possible handle -- we stopped at 8, I know some that have many more -- and be able to provide legal protection to them all. One would even receive assistance from the government. (Not that I suggest that as a reason for doing it, but it does make it easier to provide care to more children than one might be otherwise able to.) Many of these are now adults on their own, but we are still mom and dad to all those who have chosen to remain in contact with us.

There are some other issues to deal with, and I would be happy to discuss those with you if you are interested. But I can assure you that the need is continuing and very great. So, it might be something to consider. And it would be away to accomplish this aspect of your life goals that does not include a 2nd marriage (be it Islamic or otherwise).

hey grace seeker,

I appreciate the advice and insights you're offering in this. There are actually multiple goals / needs being fulfilled as a result of this, the aspect of children being perhaps the most major, but not the only one.

Another aspect of this is the shortage of practicing Muslim men. By practicing I mean that they truly have a connection with God and do their best to prioritize the commandment of God in our scripture the Qur'aan, and through his prophet in the ahadeeth.

Yet another issue we have in our Muslim communities is the prevalence of an idea that women who are divorced are in fact "tainted goods." This returns back to a general double standard in many societies and cultures that men who sleep around are "studs" whereas women who do are, well, many words that I'd prefer not to repeat.

In the example we have from our Prophet (peace be upon him) and the men around him, the companions, if any women were divorced, there was always another man ready to propose, and she would not have to worry about her provision and how she would take care of herself. today, due to many of the cultural influences within our muslim societies, this is no longer the case.

I don't like to mention it because I don't want to seem as though I'm doing this out of community service for these women - they may feel as though I'm throwing charity at someone poor, which is not the case, from my perspective.

As for adopting children, my wife and I discussed this as well, and it's our plan that once my wife can no longer have biological children, we will begin adopting children as well at an age which will allow her to continue nursing the children (my wife trained with la leche league for lactation consultant training, so she knows how to do all this), and the reason for this is because in Islamic law, there is no such thing as adoption - once the child hits puberty, one "parent" or another deal with the child as though they are a parent, in the sense of their being parental rights or parental style relationships.

However, if the child is breastfed by the mother a certain number of feedings early on when still within the first two years of life, then the child becomes a foster child of the mother, a brother or sister to all the woman's biological children, and a foster child of the father who caused the woman's milk to flow.

So we plan on doing this once my wife's ability to have children has concluded. I know that there are many children in need of families right now, but we'd first like to bring our own into this world, and knowing what my wife can and can't handle, we're pacing ourselves at 2.5 years per child (give or take a few months) in order to bring as many children as possible while allowing my wife some breathing room :D

As for point #3, my belief in it is a natural extension of my faith in God, and how I believe His legislation and the roles we as men and women are given are in harmony, such that we complete one another rather than compete with one another. There are numerous scientific studies that say things such as, "Men are built to be adulterous, not monogamous", going on to explain that men are genetically designed to "spread their seed" as was said in one report. I don't really require the scientific studies to believe in it, but since I know you don't take the Qur'aan and what is said in Islam as an authority, I thought I might mention sources that might be lessed biased regarding polygyny than I am in this regard.

Thanks again for your advice, it's greatly appreciated!

[chosen]

well lets face it..not everyone in this kind of relationship thinks it is good..some people have had very very bad experiences..evil even..I dont believe in this kind of marriage, however I dont have to agree with it..only the adult consenting parties need to agree to it..

[tigersabre]

well lets face it..not everyone in this kind of relationship thinks it is good..some people have had very very bad experiences..evil even..I dont believe in this kind of marriage, however I dont have to agree with it..only the adult consenting parties need to agree to it..

Yeah, the Warren Jeffs thing still sits badly in a lot of people's minds. Islamic Law doesn't allow any woman to be married against her will. There are, however, a lot of good experiences as well :D One common plus point cited by women is that they have more free time to themselves on their "off" days, and that their relationships are stronger (maybe because they spend less time?).

But it's definitely no walk in the park, and I think what many people automatically imagine in their minds is that polygyny in Islam is some kind of hedonistic male chauvinist fantasia, which it really is not. Its a heavier responsibility, and it adds a greater chance that one could potentially have a difficult reckoning on the Day of Judgement should it that the husband was unjust to one over another (or others) with regards to time and money.

[chosen]

warren jeffs is a pig..these were not adult consenting parties..he was marrying children off to each other 13 and 14 year old girls AGAINST THERE WILL..

[Grace Seeker]

warren jeffs is a pig..these were not adult consenting parties..he was marrying children off to each other 13 and 14 year old girls AGAINST THERE WILL..

Right!! But as that is not what Tigersabre is talking about, let's not confuse the points with that side issue.

[chosen]

This is america and we have freedom of religion here...so as long as all parties are truley consenting and they have not been forced in anyway...and provided that all parties are legal adults I dont care how many wives a man has..My problem is with the comment that "the system" will take care of them...IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU HAVE ONE WIFE OR Twelve...you shouldnt get married unless you can take care of your wife(s) and children...sorry but I work too hard and have too much money taken out of my pay for this type of crappola already..please do not advertise it as a way to live.....again take 15 wives I dont care..just find a way to support them yourself..

[Malaikah]

My problem is with the comment that "the system" will take care of them...IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU HAVE ONE WIFE OR Twelve...you shouldnt get married unless you can take care of your wife(s) and children...sorry but I work too hard and have too much money taken out of my pay for this type of crappola already..please do not advertise it as a way to live.....again take 15 wives I dont care..just find a way to support them yourself..

He never said he was going to let the system support them- you are twisting his words.

[جوري]

this guy is here to exercise his anger not to offer advise.

As a woman I'd never agree to share my husband with another, but I don't disagree with God's law, understanding the nature of men, and what is actually going on in society.
There a levels of piety and the psychology of a person plays a part in that.
Someone might not want to share her husband but she isn't just a Muslimas, she is not just a mo'mena, she is not just a mo7sina, she is a mokhlisa and feels she can withstand and be ok with this for the sake of Allah.. another woman might ask for a divorce and it is also her God given right...

what I don't understand is people imposing their opinion on other parties like they are so civilized.. so civilized but can't reconcile why 50% of men will cheat on their wives.. so civilized they'd rather bury poor helpless, widowed, divorced, orphaned women, in some outskirt on the wrong side of the track, rather than realize they have a duty toward them, a duty to put food and a safe roof over their head so they are not prostituting themselves to put food on the table...

Understand the human condition, hierarchy of people within that system.. human psychology before you pass out comments on people being low lives or pigs or whatever.. or just take it to another forum with like minds, because frankly no one is interested in the $*** you spew!
and go read your bible tell us what a pig, Abraham, Solomon, David, Job and the rest were for taking in more than one wife before writing here!

[tigersabre]

This is america and we have freedom of religion here...so as long as all parties are truley consenting and they have not been forced in anyway...and provided that all parties are legal adults I dont care how many wives a man has..My problem is with the comment that "the system" will take care of them...IT DOESNT MATTER IF YOU HAVE ONE WIFE OR Twelve...you shouldnt get married unless you can take care of your wife(s) and children...sorry but I work too hard and have too much money taken out of my pay for this type of crappola already..please do not advertise it as a way to live.....again take 15 wives I dont care..just find a way to support them yourself..

Hey Chosen,

I agree with you, actually. I'm a fiscal conservative myself, and I believe that people should pay for themselves as well. I think your reaction to my statement, however, is due to the typical case the occurs on the welfare system - people who keep having babies and have no intent of getting work and giving back - they plan on simply taking at the expense of your tax dollars and mine.

My case is specific. I am a working professional in the IT field (currently a software engineer), and I myself contribute to the system. So, in essence, I'll be taking back what I myself have put in, if I were to go that route. Of course, I believe in zero taxes, or close to it, and had the federal government not been taxing me, I'd probably be able to support a second family a lot easier :D

However, I'm not depending on the federal government - as part of my plan to support my family, I'm moving into SAP BI / BW, which pays $70 starting and then goes up from there with experience. My training for that will finish in about 3 months, and then I'll start applying for new jobs from there. And, you can imagine with the Democrats coming into the white house, I'll probably end up paying more taxes as a result.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

i'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle are if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, imho, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that'll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:

[Nabooly]

It seems weird that your actually "seeking" some lady to marry as your second wife. Isnt polygamy for when you fall in love with another women (while being in love with your wife?)

[tigersabre]

:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

i'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle are if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, imho, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that'll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:

Salaam alaykum YusufNoor,

Jazakallaah khayr for your input akhi. My response is as follows:

1. The laws of the land state that I cannot "marry" more than one wife according to their definition of "marriage". Meaning, I can't come into court, get a second court recognized marriage, and then derive government benefits due to a couple defined as "married" under their law.

However, "marriage" as defined by Islamic law is different. It does not require government recognition or the tax credits :D What it requires is that shuroot and arkaan of the marriage contract are present before and during the marriage contract, respectively, and once completed, the marriage is recognized by Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Now, if there is a law that states one cannot be involved in more than one marriage recognized by Allah, this might be something, as this cuts into our definition, but as they don't, there's no violation.

To help you understand this practically, if a man were to have a mistress, children with that mistress, was to give her money and a home, is that illegal? It's not, so it's essentially the same thing, except they call it adultery, but we call it marriage.

2. In general, Allah has legislated that we only be equal in the affairs of time and money. If it were not possible, then it would not have been allowed. As it is, it is practiced. Regarding Hajj specifically, I doubt it's that big a deal. My mother just went on Umrah on a business Visa by herself (which is not allowed, I know, but she did it against our advice, as she was traveling without a mahram). Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time.

3. If they are good, practicing brothers, let me know - I know of many sisters in Michigan who are struggling to find solid, practicing husbands. Let me also know if anyone is looking for sisters who are divorced, or divorced with children.

4. The first and most effective daw'ah goes to those closest to you - and that is your family, so by nurturing a tightknit religious family, insha'Allah, that will be way more daw'ah than can be done by most individuals in their lifetime. Secondly, the job of daw'ah is to convey the message, and leave the convincing of hearts to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala. Also, as mentioned in point #1, there is nothing illegal taking place, but there is an erroneous perception and misunderstanding of the law that causes people to think there is something wrong. Seeing as this is the case, we have an additional daw'ah to do for muslims as well. I personally am not an apologist - I'm not ashamed of what Allah has legislated due to it being out of favor with the norms and mores of Western society. I think, in fact, it is better daw'ah when we stand up and show our religion for what it is and not try to duck and dodge what is unpopular. People who stand for their principles, even if unpopular, are better respected than those who bend over backwards to please others. I prefer the former position over the latter.

5. As far as public education goes, I know I'm not putting my children through that. I went through it, and there is much that is gained that is unneeded in such a socially toxic environment. I'd go so far as to say it doesn't represent the world afterwards, so I don't believe any "lessons" gained from such interactions would be relevant later in life.

I'm considering private islamic schooling, but what I've seen has not been promising. Parents expect the schools to raise their children into good Muslims, when they don't realize that parents are responsible for raising good Muslim children, the school is simply there to provide the environment to continue an Islamic atmosphere, provided that's what they have at home. Right now, children watch way too much of our oversexualized TV and take its influences right into the Islamic schooling, so having a better Islamic environment doesn't seem to matter when Muslim parents don't care to raise their children up properly anyway.

The other option we're considering is Homeschooling. Tutors are a bit expensive, but now that "The World is Flat" (Thomas Friedman), it seems that it's neither difficult nor expensive to get top notch tutors across the globe at the time you need it, so I may go that route instead.

Thanks again for your thoughts and insights!

[tigersabre]

It seems weird that your actually "seeking" some lady to marry as your second wife. Isnt polygamy for when you fall in love with another women (while being in love with your wife?)

I think it's weirder that my wife is helping out :D But that is the power of istikhaara prayer, and making du'aa sincerely to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Falling in love is an interesting thing. Love is a strange thing - sometimes, it happens as you've mentioned, when you see someone and fall for them, and have to be with them. And sometimes, two people with mutual goals and personalities that click well together come together for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala, and grow to love one another for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala over time during a marriage. The key, of course, is to not take one's partner for granted and expect that by being married, the love is there to stay - love will be renewed and regenerated by loving action given to the partner.

So, from my perspective, while I'm not immune to the former, I'm aiming for the latter ;)

[snakelegs]

tigersabre,
you and your wife have obviously given this much thought, and are still investigating. you sound like you do a pretty good job of putting your trust in Allah, so i think that if you do decide to take a 2nd wife that it will work out for you.
all the best to you and your (growing) family.

[NoName55]

Salam Alaikum

Disclaimer Note: post is not aimed at thread starter (to avoid charges of posting at the person) but the "advisors" (excluding GraceSeeker, who actually managed to insert some Islamic commonsense in his posts)

How many of you, if any, know that a person who practices polygamy in a country where it is bigamy under their law, is breaking quite a few Islamic rules?

[snakelegs]

true say. you are required to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not compell you to do anything against islam.

[NoName55]

true say. you are required to obey the laws of the land as long as they do not compel you to do anything against Islam.

Salam sister

you mentioned 1 (partly)

some more to go yet!

Edit:
it seems I am rather late as one brothers has already mentiond some things

:sl:

i have a couple of questions for you tigersabre.

the first of which is what Masjid in Seattle is you friend the Imam at?

I'm not so sure that i agree with the advice he gave you. we have a certain "Celeb" type Lecturer who's here from time to time. he always talks about how being a good Muslim means that you have to obey the laws of the country in which you live. in the USofA, you CANNOT have more than 1 wife. there are countries that will let you have the 4, but this isn't one of them.

secondly, are you sure that you can treat your wives equally? how will you ever be able to take any other than the 1st one on Hajj? you must be legally married to be with your wife or wives in Saudi Arabia.

thirdly, we got dozens of single brothers in the Seattle area if you are overpopulated with them.

are you intending on sending your children to public schools?

lastly, IMHO, having more than 1 wife here would hurt your chances of da'wah. you wouldn't be "obeying the law"; that willll give others the impression that we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey, which of course would be correct.

:w:

well done!:w:

we just pick and choose which laws we'd like to obey

and many of us treat Sunnah the same way too :(

[YusufNoor]

How many of you, if any, know that a person who practices polygamy in a country where it is bigamy under their law, is breaking quite a few Islamic rules?

that's the point that i'm trying to make.

also, what happens when, wife #2 isn't quite as thrilled as she thought she would be and brings her 4 children to the "sherrif" and tells him about your other 5 children ALL with the same last name, from your "other" wife.

the sherrif comes knocking on your door with a warrant for your arrest, how do you plead? is this your answer:

The laws of the land state that I cannot "marry" more than one wife according to their definition of "marriage". Meaning, I can't come into court, get a second court recognized marriage, and then derive government benefits due to a couple defined as "married" under their law.

However, "marriage" as defined by Islamic law is different. It does not require government recognition or the tax credits What it requires is that shuroot and arkaan of the marriage contract are present before and during the marriage contract, respectively, and once completed, the marriage is recognized by Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Now, if there is a law that states one cannot be involved in more than one marriage recognized by Allah, this might be something, as this cuts into our definition, but as they don't, there's no violation

forget how many wives, how many attorneys can you afford?

methinks that this:

Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time

is just so wrong in so many ways...

i'm a new Muslim, but i thought "intent" is EVERYTHING! MAYBE establish residence in a country where it's legal and simply live here...

i don't know, but i would like to know which Imam at which Masjid[you can just tell me which Masjid] gave you that advice. i had a bit a of a brutal discussion with a brother from Gambia who thinks that he can have 4 wives here too. i think we need to figure this out, because i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!

If they are good, practicing brothers, let me know - I know of many sisters in Michigan who are struggling to find solid, practicing husbands. Let me also know if anyone is looking for sisters who are divorced, or divorced with children.

well, you could say, "if they are single, are they really practicing?" actually most are Somali and can't afford the $10,000 nikkah! i reckon it's the good wives that make them more "solid".

Alhumdulillah, my wife is happy with a poor Muslim!


:w:

[NoName55]

Worst case scenario, take one at a time, legally divorce and then legally marry the other, get the paper work done, etc. Each Hajj, you can take a year of prep time

one can not marry an ex wife unless she has married and divorced another man.

so it would be like a wife swapping party!

fitnah from beginning to end.
............................................

Re: his original plan

every marriage has to be registered with local authorities to legitimise the rights of new wife and kids otherwise the villainous old family could disinherit the new one on your death. under law they will be treated just like a mistress and her illegitimate brood/spawn.

^^where is the equal treatment in that?

"Marry women of your choice, two, or three, or four; but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one." [Al-Qur’an 4:3]

i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!

I do not think you can change their mind because they think they are defending something Islamic.

[tigersabre]

that's the point that i'm trying to make.

also, what happens when, wife #2 isn't quite as thrilled as she thought she would be and brings her 4 children to the "sherrif" and tells him about your other 5 children ALL with the same last name, from your "other" wife.

the sherrif comes knocking on your door with a warrant for your arrest, how do you plead? is this your answer:



forget how many wives, how many attorneys can you afford?

methinks that this:



is just so wrong in so many ways...

i'm a new Muslim, but i thought "intent" is EVERYTHING! MAYBE establish residence in a country where it's legal and simply live here...

i don't know, but i would like to know which Imam at which Masjid[you can just tell me which Masjid] gave you that advice. i had a bit a of a brutal discussion with a brother from Gambia who thinks that he can have 4 wives here too. i think we need to figure this out, because i can see lots of folks AGREEING with you, but i have to differ with that and would want to debate it ...until i change their minds!



well, you could say, "if they are single, are they really practicing?" actually most are Somali and can't afford the $10,000 nikkah! i reckon it's the good wives that make them more "solid".

Alhumdulillah, my wife is happy with a poor Muslim!


:w:

Walaykum as salaam wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuhu akhi,

Jazakallaah khayr for your concern about my well-being, as well as those who may wish to embark on such a relationship for the sake of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

I suppose the reason that what was said by myself earlier was accepted (if not preferable or practiced) by others is because what I'm proposing does not contravene US laws, either federal or state. A practical example will make it easier to understand.

Imagine two people are married. They've gotten a valid marriage contract from your state, and you're drawing the benefits given by the state and federal government as a result.

Now imagine the husband in this relationship decides to have an affair without his wife's consent. Is this illegal, under US law? Not at all. Otherwise, how many people would be jailed for adultery? Moving on, what if, as a result of this relationship, his mistress has a child? Is that illegal? What if this man buys or rents his mistress a home? Is that illegal?

Now, what if this man tells his wife, and she says, yeah, I know you're doing it, but honestly, I don't care. Is that illegal? Then the man goes to confess to his spiritual advisor, and this man doesn't care, and says it's ok, we all make mistakes. And then the man goes on and tells the mistress's father. At any point in time, has this man broken a law? Will the US government come after this man ever for anything? And if so, what law did he break?

Now, what if this man tries to go down to the County Clerk's office and get a marriage certificate for his mistress, is that illegal? YES, because NOW this person has violated the law - he's tried to get the state to recognize another marriage, while he's not had a state-recognized legal divorce (bigamy).

But what if he does all of the above, but never goes in for that marriage certificate. In fact, what if he just reverses the order of the events a bit (tells everyone - wife, spiritual advisor, father - before having children and buying or renting a home for the woman). Has anything illegal been done?

I'd say the answer is no. And that's why, any discussion revolving around whether Islamic law is violated due to not following the law of the land must first prove that the law of the land is violated.

The mistake that all of you are making is that you are conflating the definition of marriage in US Law with the definition of marriage in Islamic Law. Usually, when a Muslim couple gets married, they do the nikaah in a manner that fulfills the standards of Islamic law (at the masjid), and they also fill out the state contract so that it's recognized under US law as well.

But if a couple never filed for that marriage contract, then the state would not even consider them married, even if they consider one another married, and the reason is that US Law doesn't consider you married just because the man, woman, and her wali (guardian) have approved their marriage.

If this is not clear to you, please let me know, and I'd be happy to explain it further.

[NoName55]

what I'm proposing does not contravene US laws, either federal or state. A practical example will make it easier to understand.

but it does go against what Allah says in Quraan!!!

[tigersabre]

one can not marry an ex wife unless she has married and divorced another man.

so it would be like a wife swapping party!

fitnah from beginning to end.
............................................

Re: his original plan

every marriage has to be registered with local authorities to legitimise the rights of new wife and kids otherwise the villainous old family could disinherit the new one on your death. under law they will be treated just like a mistress and her illegitimate brood/spawn.
I do not think you can change their mind because they think they are defending something Islamic.

Salaam alaykum akhi,

I think you've misunderstood some points regarding what I've said, and I think you've also misunderstood some concepts in Islamic law as well, so let me clarify both, insha'Allah.

Firstly, the "divorce" I am talking about is not one where I say "Talaq" and my wife is divorced according to Islamic law - it's a divorce according to the definition of US law, where paper work is filed, and we lose our tax status and benefits. To the state, we are no longer married. To Allah, of course, we still are, because the definition of marriage in Islam has nothing to do with state contracts at the county clerk's office.

Secondly, a side point, when divorcing someone under the Islamic definition of marriage, it is not one divorce, but rather divorcing, remarrying, then divorcing, then remarrying, and then divorcing one more time that causes the situation which you mentioned above - that the woman must marry another man before she can re-marry the original husband. So the divorce has to have actually happened 3 times, not once.

Finally, I noticed that many of you are concerned that the additional wives may not have their legal rights protected due to the way the law is written. That's what Wills are for :D

Please let me know if you need further clarification.

[tigersabre]

but it does go against what Allah says in Quraan!!!

Can you clarify further exactly what it is that Allah subhaana wa ta'aala said in the Qur'aan that you think I'm contradicting?

[Malaikah]

but it does go against what Allah says in Quraan!!!

:sl:

How? He won't be breaking US law so he won't be breaking the Islamic requirement of following the law of the land you live in.

What is he going against in the Quran?

[NoName55]

:sl:

How? He won't be breaking US law so he won't be breaking the Islamic requirement of following the law of the land you live in.

What is he going against in the Quran?

wa alaikum salam

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...tml#post873351

[Woodrow]

One thing I see overlooked is that in most states 'common law" marriages are considered to be legal marriages. so if either wife gets angry about something, she need only publicly state that she has cohabited with the male and he is married and committing bigamy. Goodbye marriage, hello jail.

The common marriage law marriage does help prevent people from simply living together without responsibility and in most states if you live with a woman, there needs to be a divorce before either can remarry by common law or by state law.

true it is difficult to prove without witnesses of the statements of either, but an angry woman, is seldom hesitant to say things that can get her husband thrown in jail.

Here in Texas if a man and woman cohabit in a house, motel or other wise for the purpose of relations, they are legally married, even if they do not know it.

[tigersabre]

wa alaikum salam

http://www.islamicboard.com/advice-s...tml#post873351

Ah, I see what you're getting at. I mentioned this point as well earlier, so I'll repeat it again because I know there has been a lot of posting, and sometimes we skip to get to the main point at the end :D

What the Qur'aan is getting at is that I, the individual, am responsible for certain issues towards each wife in order to be just with them. There are two specific issues:

1. Finances: The money I spend on them.
2. Time: The time I allocate to spend on each of them.

Finances are related to my own personal income. Time is self-explanatory.

I am NOT responsible for how the US government views the relationship (that's their issue), nor am I responsible for tax benefits the government decides to give as a result of a marriage contract. If I get any money from the IRS, it simply will be put in my bank account and equal spending continues.

As for my passing, writing a Will is not that difficult, and everyone will get what they're entitled. Actually, the Qur'aan and Sunnah explicitedly delineate the shares each person gets when someone passes away, and so given that my wife (the first) is helping me find a second, and wants to (no gun to her head or anything like that), and we've both taken the fiqh of inheritance law, we both know how serious this, that everyone gets their rightful shares upon death of, say, the husband.

Finally, I think you're imagining a worst case scenario, whereas for myself, I'm prepared for a worst case scenario, but I hope to live a best case scenario, insha'Allah.

[tigersabre]

One thing I see overlooked is that in most states 'common law" marriages are considered to be legal marriages. so if either wife gets angry about something, she need only publicly state that she has cohabited with the male and he is married and committing bigamy. Goodbye marriage, hello jail.

The common marriage law marriage does help prevent people from simply living together without responsibility and in most states if you live with a woman, there needs to be a divorce before either can remarry by common law or by state law.

true it is difficult to prove without witnesses of the statements of either, but an angry woman, is seldom hesitant to say things that can get her husband thrown in jail.

Here in Texas if a man and woman cohabit in a house, motel or other wise for the purpose of relations, they are legally married, even if they do not know it.

Salaam alaykum Woodrow,

Most states do not recognize Common Law marriages, and have not for quite some time now. Texas is one that still does, but it is a bit more complicated than what was mentioned in your post.

Thanks for adding your input though, I appreciate your feedback =D

[snakelegs]

Actually, the one who pays for health insurance regardless is the husband. I pay for it for my first wife and kids right now at a through work. One simply needs to provide the same coverage for their 2nd wife OR be able to provide medical care when the time comes, either one. The goal is not the money spent on health care - the goal is the health care. So long as its available, that's all you need.

Besides all that, one thing a lot of people don't realize is that if wife #2 doesn't work, theoretically, she has no income, but she's continuing to have kids. As a result, she may be entitled to other benefits.

the health insurance issue guarantees that the 2 wives will not be treated equally. no one can afford to pay medical expenses out of pocket any more. if #2 must rely on the government for her health care (welfare) - she will not get the quality health care that #1 gets.

[tigersabre]

the health insurance issue guarantees that the 2 wives will not be treated equally. no one can afford to pay medical expenses out of pocket any more. if #2 must rely on the government for her health care (welfare) - she will not get the quality health care that #1 gets.

Well, not necessarily. As I mentioned much earlier, I'm planning to transition to a different type of IT career, so it won't be as difficult for me to afford it for two (or even three) spouses. The job I will be moving into, the low end, new consultants make $70 / hour. With about a year of experience, the pay rate goes on to $125 - $150 / hour, and after 3 - 4 years, a person can expect to make $250 / hour. So, I'm making that career move in 3 months time, insha'Allah.

[snakelegs]

do you have any idea how much major surgery costs these days? if wife#2 or one of wife #2's children got run over and needed emergency care....can you imagine the bill? intensive care, surgery, post op care, physical therapy for months etc etc.
i think you're being a bit unrealistic on this one.

[tigersabre]

do you have any idea how much major surgery costs these days? if wife#2 or one of wife #2's children got run over and needed emergency care....can you imagine the bill? intensive care, surgery, post op care, physical therapy for months etc etc.
i think you're being a bit unrealistic on this one.

No, I didn't mean I would pay out of pocket - I meant that I could purchase health insurance for them.

Sorry for the confusing answer :(

[NoName55]

Finally, I think you're imagining a worst case scenario, whereas for myself, I'm prepared for a worst case scenario, but I hope to live a best case scenario, insha'Allah.

yup! if things don't turn out to be as bad as I imagined, it can be a pleasant surprise.

but seriously I have not seen a single successful polygamous marriage in England where I live now. but I have seen multiple murders related to one such marriage of a so-called scholar from Birmingham

[syilla]

sorry for a stupid question...

Just want to know...what the government will do if someone practise polygyny in US or UK.

I watched the family law the other day...the court took the children custody away from the mothers... :(

P/S:- i just met someone who her best friends is her co-wife...

[tigersabre]

yup! if things don't turn out to be as bad as I imagined, it can be a pleasant surprise.

but seriously I have not seen a single successful polygamous marriage in England where I live now. but I have seen multiple murders related to one such marriage of a so-called scholar from Birmingham

Heh, you know, it's funny, of my Islamic studies teachers was teaching the Fiqh of Marriage in our city, and he mentioned a story in which one wife called the teacher to complain about her husband not spending time with her or giving her her rights from one coast of the country, and then woman called from another coast to complain about the same guy! Turned out, he had married both, and neither had knowledge of the other, and the guy was doing a poor job of managing the whole thing.

I have heard a lot of bad stories, but usually, they take place because the first wife has a lot of jealousy for the second, and vice versa. There are numerous instances like my own, where the first wife is setting a lot up, or helping out with it, and at times it works out, and I'll be honest, at times I've seen that it can be complicated and can sometimes become difficult.

For myself, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, I wondered if I could be someone who could do this, who could be just enough for it, and I prayed istikhaara regarding it. Had my wife not come to me the next day after I prayed, and with my not saying anything to her about polygyny, telling me that this is something I should do, in that case, I don't feel doubts any longer that this is what is wanted of me from Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

And believe me, while most brothers who don't give it serious thought and research just kind of have one aspect in mind, I'm more focused on everything else as that is a part of preparing and, as many have been concerned on here for, to make sure justice is done for all involved.

[tigersabre]

P/S:- i just met someone who her best friends is her co-wife...

See this? This happens as well, alhamdullillaah.

[AnonymousPoster]

:sl:

First of all I don't believe that your wife is supporting you on your 2nd marriage..^o):uuh:

Secondly, would you please answer some of my questions?

1. Are you a really good practicing muslim, who follows all of the Sunnah of the beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW? For example,

Do you have a naturally grown beard like the Prophet Muhammad SAW (not a fashionable one ^o))

Do you dress like Prophet Muhammad SAW?

Do you pray every salaat in the masjid?

Do you lower your gaze for every non-mahram?

Do you really treat your wife like the Prophet Muhammad SAW treated his?

These are a few questions AND I am sure you cannot answer them for the better,
If you really want to wed more than one wife, according to Prophet Muhammad SAW, then FIRST you have to follow all of the other Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad SAW..
So, think about it...

:w:

[syilla]

Oh yeah...the other day i was on muslimmomscafe forum...

and this one lady is finding herself a co-wife.

is this your wife? probably not :D hehe

[tigersabre]

:sl:

First of all I don't believe that your wife is supporting you on your 2nd marriage..^o):uuh:

Secondly, would you please answer some of my questions?

1. Are you a really good practicing muslim, who follows all of the Sunnah of the beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW? For example,

Do you have a naturally grown beard like the Prophet Muhammad SAW (not a fashionable one ^o))

Do you dress like Prophet Muhammad SAW?

Do you pray every salaat in the masjid?

Do you lower your gaze for every non-mahram?

Do you really treat your wife like the Prophet Muhammad SAW treated his?

These are a few questions AND I am sure you cannot answer them for the better,
If you really want to wed more than one wife, according to Prophet Muhammad SAW, then FIRST you have to follow all of the other Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad SAW..
So, think about it...

:w:

Salaam alaykum Anonymous Gender,

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

Fourthly, one cannot call himself a "good, practicing Muslim." That is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to judge. What I can say is that I try my best, and I ask Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to guide me to what pleases Him and to keep me away from what does not please Him.

Fifthly, one can never say, "I treat my wife just like the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim treated his" because he has already said that he treats his wives the best, so none of us will ever achieve that.

As to your specific questions, I follow and have implemented the opinions on islamqa to the best of my abilities.

[tigersabre]

Oh yeah...the other day i was on muslimmomscafe forum...

and this one lady is finding herself a co-wife.

is this your wife? probably not :D hehe

You never know, my wife is quite active, alhamdullillaah

[NoName55]

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs

reminds me of another thread in advice forum where a girl who has a boyfriend, seeking advice about how to persuade her "wicked" father to let her wear niqaab or some thing.

also reminds me about few people here including a mullah (former member) who bang on at me for having bad manners yet they see no wrong in pronouncing takfir, calling people stupid, idiot, moronic mind reader, faasiq, munaafiq etc.

[tigersabre]

Yes, this is unfortunate. In one of our classes, which dealt with the Historical Development of Fiqh, the sisters were asking, what is salafi, and so forth, and the shaykh said, there are people who ascribe themselves to the practice of the salaf, meaning, they try to practice their actions as the salaf did, but they are not truly "salafi", and why is that? Because their etiquettes, their manners, their character, is not like that of the salaf.

They waste their time issuing fatwas on everyone and everything (these are the laypeople, mind you), they label everyone without first ascertaining all the required information of a specific situation, they backbite people without even realizing it, and then will have the audacity to say, "We're just trying to warn everyone."

When people stop focusing on others and start focusing on themselves, they will begin to see a world of a difference in themselves.

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my questions brother tigersabre, i do appreciate it.

these 2 seem, to a new Muslim to be in conflict with each other:

Another aspect of this is the shortage of practicing Muslim men. By practicing I mean that they truly have a connection with God and do their best to prioritize the commandment of God in our scripture the Qur'aan, and through his prophet in the ahadeeth.

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

first we pick and choose which laws we are going to follow and NOW we choose which Sunnah we will bother with... :uhwhat
do you really have Alims telling to ignore Sunnah? :offended:

will you tell me at which Masjid your friend is Imam at?

also, i spent some time as a trustee on health and welfare programs, it should be easy to insure your children by any wife, however, trying to get another "significant other" insured may not be so easy, especially as you are already married. adverse selection would come into play and most trustees would have to deny her coverage. any thought?

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

I can't believe that I, a Christian minister who believes that God created us to live one man and one woman bound in holy matrimony, feel a need to defend Tigersabre for his plans for multiple Islam marraiges on an Islamic forum, but here goes.


What Tigersabre proposes would not violate any federal or state law where he lives in Illinois. Illinois does NOT recognize common law marriage, unless that legal status is achieved elsewhere and the couple moves here. Not considering religion at all, in the state of Illinois a legally married man could live with as many women as he wants, father children with them (all being by the state regarded as illegitimate) and continue this way indefinitely, and all the state will recognize is his legal marriage to his one wife. There are no laws against cohabitation, adultery, or any other form of consensual living arrangements between competent adults in the state of Illinois. The only thing that would be illegal in all of Tigersabre's plans would be if he was to go to the county courthouse and register two marriages at the same time -- that would be bigamy, but he has no intention of trying to register his Islamic "marriage(s)" as a legal marriage in the state of Illinois or elsewhere. Thus he would not be violating any laws. As I understand it, this then also clears the prohibitions that some people have found in the Qur'an.

As far as providing for his children. The state of Illinois does provide guaranteed health care for children. My daughter and her husband (typical Christian marriage) have 3 children. He has insurance through his company. The company offers them the opportunity to buy health insurance for the family through the company as well. They have done so for my daughter but not the children. The reason is that they have chosen to take advantage of the laws of the state that provides the same coverage at no cost to them. I do not think that they are playing the system, I think that was the very intent of the system to make things easier on families to provide health care for their children. If Tigersabre's "other wives" take advantage of this in their non-traditional families, as an Illinois tax payer, I don't begrudge them doing so any more than I do my daughter in her traditional family. One must note, that while this may be Tigersabre's plan, he will have no rights with regard to these children unless his non-legal status wives elect to give them to him. That will be at their discreation not his. So they will decide whether to utilize the state's insurance program for children, not Tigersabre. Should so many people utilize this insurance plan that it becomes too big of a burden on the tax payer, then we (the Illinois taxpayer through our legislature) would have to revisit the whole concept and decide whether to continue it, reduce it, or reduce the number of new roads built for Chicago.

As far as providing more than the minimal level of insurance for his children and any sort of insurance for his wives, Tigersabre could still elect to buy health insurance privately, or he might find the rare business would even provide coverage. Many people are not covered by any sort of company or state provided insurance and have to finance it themselves. This includes most lawyers, electricians, plumbers, farmers, shopkeepers and (ironically) doctors -- pretty much anyone who is in business for themselves. And there are dozens of companies out there selling insurance to meet these needs. You just have to have the dollars to afford it. Something that Tigersabre says he plans to have in line before venturing into the realm he speaks of.

So, though I am against the concept of plural marriage on religious grounds, as a citizen of a country that (supposedly) does not pass laws based on religion and a citizen of the state in which Tigersabre would be doing this, I find no grounds for objection to his specific plan, other than my own religious views.

[Jayda]

hola Grace Seeker,

perhaps it would be better to put the law of God before the law of men. as you say you are a Christian minister, you believe in Gods plan for men and women, that should come before everything else. perhaps there are legal issues involved here but it's best to let the lawyers and politicians muddy their hands in it.

i do not mean anything personal... but it is a bit like 'Christians' who defend gay marriage, abortion or other extremely anti Christian values. you cannot attest to one thing on Sunday and then another thing some other day of the week.

and it's nice to offer advice when we can or when there are secular issues involved... but this is really a purely islamic issue, i don't think it's our place to get involved in this particular discussion... and our advice, such as it would be, won't really be helpful to this person.

let's just wish for him and his family the best outcome :)

que Dios te bendiga

[جوري]

This isn't a purely Islamic issue.. the bible is imbued with characters who are polygamists.. Jesus wasn't on earth long enough to take a wife, not was he rich enough to provide for marriage.

Judaism made it against state law to take more than one wife when the state of Israel was established.. I didn't make that up, you may visit the questions about Judaism answered by a Jew, and since the old testament is attached right there to the new with the same characters, I don't see why it is any different for christians.. celibacy, nunhood, priesthood is but an invention of the catholic church, not an invention of Jesus!


cheers!

[tigersabre]

:sl:

thank you for your time and patience in dealing with my questions brother tigersabre, i do appreciate it.

these 2 seem, to a new Muslim to be in conflict with each other:





first we pick and choose which laws we are going to follow and NOW we choose which Sunnah we will bother with... :uhwhat
do you really have Alims telling to ignore Sunnah? :offended:

will you tell me at which Masjid your friend is Imam at?

also, i spent some time as a trustee on health and welfare programs, it should be easy to insure your children by any wife, however, trying to get another "significant other" insured may not be so easy, especially as you are already married. adverse selection would come into play and most trustees would have to deny her coverage. any thought?

:w:

Absolutely not. I'm simply saying that from the pre-conditions (shuroot) and pillars (arkaan) of an Islamic marriage contract, the practice of all the sunan of the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim are not among them. For someone to stipulate such would need an evidence.

Secondly, I have not said that I do not practice them - I have simply said I do not wish to enumerate my practices for fear of showing off. It is enough that Allah subhaana wa ta'aala knows what I do :D I left one statement regarding my practices, saying that if you wish to know what I practice and how I practice it regarding those specific issues, simply look at the opinions on islamqa for those specific questions, and you'll find out how I practice those issues (I don't follow everything outlined in islamqa, but for those questions, I do)

Finally, Grace Seeker has basically outlined everything in detail (thanks!), so I really need not go into further detail on the issue of insurance.

The imam of that masjid is visiting us in February to give a class on the life of the Prophet sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim. When he visits, I'll ask him if he minds that I give out his information. I'm sure he doesn't, but since it is his personal life, I'm hesitant to share who he is without his consent.

[zaria]

What that means is that the second wife will be in the same position to the husband as if they were not married at all. She is not likely to be covered under any sort of insurance, not are her children, even though by him. Should he become ill, the first wife could keep the second one from even visiting him in the hospital. But, as far as whether it is illegal for them to have an Islamic wedding, no it is not. It just will not be recognized. The illustration of living together is a good example. Those are also not officially or legally recognized relationships, even if they are many years in duration.

I don't know what the status would be if they were to venture to some country where Islamic marriages are recognized and then return to the USA to live.

In most multiple unions, they have wills and testments that can be divided equally amongst the wives in the time of the husbands demise. If the child is not legally the father, he wouldn't be able to get health insurance for them any way. With the wife he could get insurance he just wouldn't be through his job. As far as life insurance for the wife and children (his or not his) he can get it. They Islamic wedding would be recognize Islamically which is beautiful in itself. They don't have to live together. If he can have two wives, he must be able to provide justly. Today in Society living together will make it complicated. Monogomy was PUT on us by the states not giving to us as a choice which Allah has giving to our men. it's in a man nature to have a desire for more than one women and it's his choice to act upon his right giving by Allah (swt). I am not at all in a multi union but I would rather have that than to have my husband sleeping around on me being sneaky and all. And maybe a good benefit for us muslimahs, Sometimes we want our "alone time", we can benefit fromlearning the deen from the co wife or they could benefit from you. It is a wondeful thing if you PUT Allah (swt) first in your marriage. But nothing hurts more than a man not being honest about what he wants. So if you can be honest and give the first wife a choice to want to be in that situation and not force it on her, you will be good and first and formost (trust in Allah) TawakulAllah.

[Khayal]

:sl:

About following Sunnahs of Prophet Muhammad SAW... how can one justify 'picking and choosing' Sunnahs of beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW to follow? I am not saying that you are doing this, merely asking if you follow other Sunnahs Of Prophet Muhammad SAW as well; if you have a habit of choosing to follow Sunnah that are favorable to you and shunning others, then I am pretty sure that that is not permissible. In this case, if you do not follow other Sunnah, and just pick this one because you like it, then your intention is not pure and Islamically you cannot do it. Another thing that should help you, is that if you choose to follow all of the Sunnah, then you will not fall into the category of picking and choosing, and naturally you will be a better Muslim and live a better life. Your intention should be to follow the Sunnah because it is a Sunnah, not just because you favor it; and to do this, you have to be willing to follow every other Sunnah.
Another of your points was about making mistakes. You stated that if we make a mistake, as long as we repent, we are cool. There are those that repent and just keep doing what they were doing before, and so do not have a pure intention to stop. Of course, I am not saying that you are one of them or anything, I don't even know if I am talking about you; I am just making a general statement. But when we repent, we should fully intend to abstain from committing such acts. And if the intention is pure and from the heart, Allah helps to avoid the mistake, so it cannot possibly happen again, and so you can't repent for things that have not happened. That is the beauty of Islam.

That's all. I am not going to argue with you further, I will just finish with my dua, May Allah SWT give you Hidayat, and may Allah have mercy on your present wife, InshaAllah.

Salaam alaykum Anonymous Gender,

Firstly, perfection is not for human beings - it is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala alone. The key is that when we make mistakes (and we will), that we turn in sincere repentance to Allah subhaana wa ta'aala repeatedly, never despairing of His Mercy.

Secondly, it is not from our religion that we show off who and what we are for the sake of others - we instead live as we do for the Pleasure of Allah subhaana wa ta'aala.

Thirdly, there is no requirement that in order to practice one sunnah, one must practice all other sunnahs (and this word has different definitions according to context, and I'm not sure if you are using this from the perspective of the faqih [in which it means an act which is mustahaab] or the usooli [in which we are talking about the sayings, actions, and tacit approvals, which can include commands]).

Fourthly, one cannot call himself a "good, practicing Muslim." That is for Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to judge. What I can say is that I try my best, and I ask Allah subhaana wa ta'aala to guide me to what pleases Him and to keep me away from what does not please Him.

Fifthly, one can never say, "I treat my wife just like the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu alayhi wa sallim treated his" because he has already said that he treats his wives the best, so none of us will ever achieve that.

As to your specific questions, I follow and have implemented the opinions on islamqa to the best of my abilities.

[Woodrow]

Perhaps I am developing a touch of senelity, but I was positive the topic was/is

"Polygyny Advice Needed". I am not capable of following more than one topic at a time and since I have to read these threads id do appreciate it when the last post has some resemblance to the original topic.

since we are no longer discussing the original topic I assume this thread has completed it's stated purpose.