How do Atheists view the Prophets (messengers of Allah)?

[NYCmuslim]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Good question. My thoughts on this might well differ from the thoughts of other atheists.

Did the prophets exist? In my view, there is solid evidence for the existence of Jesus and Muhammad (pbuh), but the others are more questionable, so the answer would have to be 'I don't know'. I suspect it is likely that they did exist, but the evidence seems to be contradictory.

Do I believe the stories about them? Some of them. I believe Jesus was crucified. I believe Muhammad (pbuh) conquered Mecca. I don't believe Noah lived to be 950 years old. I don't believe any of the miracles that the prophets are said to have performed, because I agree with Cicero (I'm quoting from memory here):

Whatever couldn't happen, didn't happen.
Whatever could happen is not a miracle.
Therefore there are no miracles.

I don't believe they were sent for a purpose by god, and I don't believe that they talked with god, for obvious reasons.

I hope that answers your questions.

Peace

[Gator]

Hello, As with what CZ said, you'll find that atheists are all over the map so I'll put my usual caveat that this is just my opinion.

I haven't really researched any of the other prophets besides Jesus. I disagree with CZ that there is firm evidence for Jesus, but my thinking is that a Jesus did exist (you find some atheists who say he didn't). Muhammad is pretty well documented so yeah, he existed. The old testament ones are tough, if they were real, they have been relagated to myth so it doesn't really matter if they were real or a conglomeration of many leader with a bit of storytelling thrown in.

I don't believe the supernatural parts of the stories. The other parts, who knows.

Since there's no god in my opinion, they were not sent down for a reason.

Good question! those are my initial thoughts. Would like to see how the atheist responses differ or are alike to see if anything surprising comes out.

thanks.

[root]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them?

I think some of them did walk the earth, and others did not. Some stories might be true others are not.

Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose?

I believe that they firmly believed that?

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[czgibson]

Greetings,

For the record, here is a summary of the literature on the historicity of Jesus. It's possible to draw a number of conclusions from it; in this case I'm with the majority view.

Peace

[Gator]

I disagree with your interpretation of this article. Well off topic so let's drop it.

Thanks.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I disagree with your interpretation of this article. Well off topic so let's drop it.

Thanks.

Absolutely - I didn't want to start an argument with you. It's just there for people who might be interested to see what the sources are. It might be worth doing the same for the other prophets in the OP.

Peace

[Gator]

True discuss another time and it was a good article.

[Isambard]

I'd Muhammed existed. Jesus is harder because looking at the material of the time, he seems to be a grab-bag of different people/legends mixed into a very common name.

The other ones? Probably, but as metioned, they have been told so many times that its really more myth at this point.

[Trumble]

How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose?

Mohammed is the only one who is a definite historical figure. I suspect the others were all real as well (certainly Moses and Jesus if not Abraham and Noah), but how much resemblance the men had to the myths and stories that grew up around them after their deaths - sometimes a very long time after - is probably unknowable now. Maybe they were all spiritual 'seekers' or adepts of some description, maybe political leaders, or most likely a combination of the two.

I personally believe Jesus was an incarnation of a great bodhisattva, destined for Buddhahood, but that incarnation would be the result of karmic cause and effect and even choice rather than being 'sent', there being no entity to do the 'sending'.

[جوري]

I personally believe Jesus was an incarnation of a great bodhisattva, destined for Buddhahood, but that incarnation would be the result of karmic cause and effect and even choice rather than being 'sent', there being no entity to do the 'sending'.

are there enough living bodies for all those 'reincarnates'? Do souls hang around hospitals and grab on to the first baby and enter its body with no prior recollection of past lives but enough ambition to continue on with life? or are they suspended in a different dimension until chance permits for a body to be available at hand? Who chooses the bodies for those to be reincarnated souls? Do they go as they please or is there some 'guiding force' to funnel them to the correct body?

cheers

[ranma1/2]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:

Well it varies. Many we see as mythological figures. Muhammad has the best evidence for existing. As for the miracles or other special events. I dont think many atheists believe in them. Did a person that jesus was based on exists. Possibly, same with the others. Do i think they were prophets. No.

[Joe98]

Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth....

Yes

Do you believe in the stories that surround them?

Where the act was in the form of a miracle the answer is "no".

It is likely they did something memorable in history and then afterwards the miraculous stories were made up to impress. It worked!
-

[Trumble]

are there enough living bodies for all those 'reincarnates'? Do souls hang around hospitals and grab on to the first baby and enter its body with no prior recollection of past lives but enough ambition to continue on with life? or are they suspended in a different dimension until chance permits for a body to be available at hand? Who chooses the bodies for those to be reincarnated souls? Do they go as they please or is there some 'guiding force' to funnel them to the correct body?

The Buddhist conception of rebirth does not involve 'souls', least of all immutable ones that need suspending anywhere. No such things exist. If you have a genuine interest in the subject, do a little background reading and I'll try and answer any questions you may have by PM or if you start another thread.. it's way off topic in this one. Might be a few days; I'm off for a long weekend vacation :smile:

[جوري]

The Buddhist conception of rebirth does not involve 'souls', least of all immutable ones that need suspending anywhere. No such things exist. If you have a genuine interest in the subject, do a little background reading and I'll try and answer any questions you may have by PM or if you start another thread.. it's way off topic in this one. Might be a few days; I'm off for a long weekend vacation :smile:

Enjoy your vacation..
No --I can't say I have a genuine interest in Buddhism.. will dig out your old thread on Buddhism and see what exactly gets reincarnated in a rebirth... or what causes Jesus to take a detour to the middle east in the far east' stead!...


cheers

[Pygoscelis]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths?

I do not know for sure that Abraham, Noah, Moses, or Jesus existed as people. They could be pure myth. I see them the same as I see King Arthur. Somebody probably did exist with their name or a name like theirs, and perhaps they even did something notable. Then a myth grew around them, merged with other stories about other people and became the figures that we know them as today.

Mohammed is a special case, in that we do know that he existed as a person and I do believe that he endorsed the Quran. I am not convinced, though find it possible, that he came up with it totally by himself. I am definitely not convinced that it has any sort of devine inspiration behind it.

Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Obviously no to all of these, or I'd not be an atheist. There is nowhere for them to be sent down from.

Most of the mythology around Noah and Jesus especially can be traced back to earlier mythologies largely derived from egyptian, babylonian, and summerian lore. If you are curious about this look up Mithras, Gilgamesh, Osiris, Nebo, and Amen-Ra to get you started.

[nevesirth]

Yes





Where the act was in the form of a miracle the answer is "no".

It is likely they did something memorable in history and then afterwards the miraculous stories were made up to impress. It worked!
-

you dont believe miracles can happen? do you also believe there are no supernatural occurences in this world? or you believe theres a logical explanation for everything

[Pygoscelis]

The "supernatural" is what we call things when we don't have an explanation for them.

Looking back on history we can see many cases where even the brightest scientific minds declared things "devine" and "supernatural" when they were at the limit of their understanding, only to have those very things later explained by others with the advantage of more advanced technology and science.

[nevesirth]

The "supernatural" is what we call things when we don't have an explanation for them.

Looking back on history we can see many cases where even the brightest scientific minds declared things "devine" and "supernatural" when they were at the limit of their understanding, only to have those very things later explained by others with the advantage of more advanced technology and science.

lets wait till the day these scientists will be able to raise the dead or create a human being

[wilberhum]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:

As an Agnostic, not an atheist, I have been slow to post.
But since the thread has degraded to Reanimation, I thought, why not.

It is obvious that an atheist is not going to believe in a messenger of Allah.
And would never believe that "they were sent down for a message and purpose".
I don't believe in prophets either.
It also seams obvious that if you conceder Muhammad a prophet, you would become a Muslim.
I have never heard anyone ever question that Muhammad existed.
I think few doubts that Jesus exited.
I have never questioned the existence of any of the above.
As for all the stories. Ya, I think they are stories.
All have been execrated beyond my ability to believe.
Noah may have built a boat and saved his animals from a flood.
But a world flood that wiped out all life that wasn't on his boat is way not possible.
Just to name a few, where did he get the Polar Bears and penguins?

But there is one thing I believe. I believe you believe, and I try to respect that.

[Joe98]

......you dont believe miracles can happen?

When superstitious people dont understand a thing they call it a miracle.

Miracles have never happened.
-

[Joe98]

lets wait till the day these scientists will be able to raise the dead or create a human being

People who would have been declared dead 50 years ago, survive by scientists using modern techniques - effectivly bringing them back from the dead.

Test tube babies. Cloning. Scientists already create human beings.

-

[nevesirth]

People who would have been declared dead 50 years ago, survive by scientists using modern techniques - effectivly bringing them back from the dead.

Test tube babies. Cloning. Scientists already create human beings.

-

thts called saving or preserving a life, not raissing someone who is already dead. and for cloning, thts far from creating a life, its just an unnatural way of making a human develop. i mean when will the scientists start creating the flesh, bones soul etc

[Joe98]

i mean when will the scientists start creating the flesh, bones etc

In a few years. Currently the search is on to grow limbs, skin etc for peole injured in accidents.
-

[nevesirth]

In a few years. Currently the search is on to grow limbs, skin etc for peole injured in accidents.
-

nonsense, is growth manipulation of limbs the same as creation? this confirms tht atheists are pple who know tht a god exists but chose to live in denial for some personal reason known to them

[Trumble]

this confirms tht atheists are pple who know tht a god exists but chose to live in denial for some personal reason known to them[/B]

Where on earth do you get that business about 'denial' from? Atheists are people who, rightly or wrongly, do not believe there is a God. Usually such beliefs are arrived at after considerable thought has been given to the evidence; among 'intelligent' atheists anyway. Your comment is no less absurd than were an atheist to say "deep down muslims know there is no God, but they force themselves to deny the fact". People believe what they believe and nobody is in 'denial' about anything.

[wilberhum]

nonsense, is growth manipulation of limbs the same as creation? this confirms tht atheists are pple who know tht a god exists but chose to live in denial for some personal reason known to them

This confirms you have no concept of beliefs other than your own.

[nevesirth]

This confirms you have no concept of beliefs other than your own.

if the atheist really believe theres no god, then how do they explain creation? or do they believe humans and the entire world was created by some intelligent beings from jupiter? or maybe in some years to come, scientists will be able to create another planet with human life as well. open ur eyes and see the truth in front of u

[nevesirth]

an intelligent person can never be an atheist, because it takes common sense to realise tht the world came into being by some force beyond the comprehension of the human psyche, call it whatever u want but dont deny tht it does exist........

[wilberhum]

if the atheist really believe theres no god, then how do they explain creation? or do they believe humans and the entire world was created by some intelligent beings from jupiter? or maybe in some years to come, scientists will be able to create another planet with human life as well. open ur eyes and see the truth in front of u

an intelligent person can never be an atheist, because it takes common sense to realise tht the world came into being by some force beyond the comprehension of the human psyche, call it whatever u want but dont deny tht it does exist........

Lets see, did I say

This confirms you have no concept of beliefs other than your own.

Why yes I did, didn't I.
Have a short think. "some force beyond the comprehension" need not be god.
It only takes a "short think".
Then you say, "Maybe I don't have the only explination".

[nevesirth]

Lets see, did I say

Why yes I did, didn't I.
Have a short think. "some force beyond the comprehension" need not be god.
It only takes a "short think".
Then you say, "Maybe I don't have the only explination".

need not be god, dint i say they can call it whatever they want but they should not try to deny the fact tht it does exist...god is just a word used to qualify tht entity beyond the comprehension of the psyche, the fact tht a non english speaking doesnt recognise an automobile as a 'car' does not mean he doesnt believe tht kind of automobile does exist, he only calls it by a different name, but refering to the same entity... so take a brief think again

[nevesirth]

atheism= denial+ignorance-common sense

[wilberhum]

atheism= denial+ignorance-common sense

Many theists have no concept of reality.

Open your mind.

Something might fall in and you have no worries of anything falling out.

[nevesirth]

Many theists have no concept of reality.

Open your mind.

Something might fall in and you have no worries of anything falling out.

i open my mind, but when nonsense falls in, i dont retain it.........

[wilberhum]

i open my mind, but when nonsense falls in, i dont retain it.........

How can you tell the difference. :uuh:

Oh, I understand.
Since you seem to like equations.
I agree = knowledge.
I disagree = ignorance.

[nevesirth]

How can you tell the difference. :uuh:

Oh, I understand.
Since you seem to like equations.
I agree = knowledge.
I disagree = ignorance.

its easy to recognise when something is 'nonsense' and when it makes 'sense'

nonsense-non=sense, sense+non=nonsense. lol:)

[wilberhum]

its easy to recognise when something is 'nonsense' and when it makes 'sense'

nonsense-non=sense, sense+non=nonsense. lol:)

Silly insult time should stop and we should return to the topic. :shade:

[nevesirth]

Silly insult time should stop and we should return to the topic. :shade:

no need for tht, ive made my point already, returning would be a waste of effort.

[wilberhum]

no need for tht, ive made my point already, returning would be a waste of effort.

Yes you have made your point.

You have no ability to comprehend any conclusion other than your own; therefore you are superior to all who don't think like you.

Further more you have proven an inability of grasp any consideration for staying on a topic or understand any confines of a topic.

You have mastered stupidity and arrogance.

Good on you, you should be proud. :muddlehea

By by little boy. :thankyou:

[nevesirth]

Yes you have made your point.

You have no ability to comprehend any conclusion other than your own; therefore you are superior to all who don't think like you.

Further more you have proven an inability of grasp any consideration for staying on a topic or understand any confines of a topic.

You have mastered stupidity and arrogance.

Good on you, you should be proud. :muddlehea

By by little boy. :thankyou:

shut up little man, whos the arrogant kid here? you....bye

[Isambard]

no need for tht, ive made my point already, returning would be a waste of effort.

What point? Your 'point' was basically "I don't know, therefore GOD!".

God-of-the-gaps is a little played out.

[NYCmuslim]

I think we have enough arguments of an atheists beliefs (or non-beliefs) in other threads so lets not bring them here.

The responses to my question have been interesting indeed. Jesus (PBUH) seems to be very controversial even in atheists perspectives. Who knew! At least you guys acknowledge the existence of Muhammad (pbuh). Thats a start :P

[wilberhum]

I think we have enough arguments of an atheists beliefs (or non-beliefs) in other threads so lets not bring them here.

The responses to my question have been interesting indeed. Jesus (PBUH) seems to be very controversial even in atheists perspectives. Who knew! At least you guys acknowledge the existence of Muhammad (pbuh). Thats a start :P

Have you ever seen where someone said that they didn't believe that Muhammad existed? I never have.

[Isambard]

I think we have enough arguments of an atheists beliefs (or non-beliefs) in other threads so lets not bring them here.

The responses to my question have been interesting indeed. Jesus (PBUH) seems to be very controversial even in atheists perspectives. Who knew! At least you guys acknowledge the existence of Muhammad (pbuh). Thats a start :P

Jesus is a tough one because of how common the name was and his background (a peasant). Its a bit like walking around Mexico City and asking people if they know "Juan". That, and the story of Jesus "Christ" isnt original. It seems anyone with some influence and their dog has a similar story woven about them with miracles sprinkled in. From philosophers, rulers, and even just semi-important ppl.

I think alot of the story of "the prophets" and Muhammed is just hero worship to the max. Just look at George Washington. Despite the relative recentness of what he did, there are still myths flying around about him. ie. The chopping of the cheery-tree.

And in America, youd get the same stare if you insulted him that if you had insulted Jesus (assuming who you are talking to is a christian).

[Pygoscelis]

[B]if the atheist really believe theres no god, then how do they explain creation?

They don't have to. Atheism is just a lack of belief in Gods. It doesn't make any attempt to explain the origin of the universe. Different atheists will have different ideas about that. Personally I find honesty to be the best policy and admit that I simply do not know. Can't really say I care either.

I'm having difficulty determining if neversirth is serious in his views or just a troll attempting (and failing) to offend atheists.

[nevesirth]

They don't have to. Atheism is just a lack of belief in Gods. It doesn't make any attempt to explain the origin of the universe. Different atheists will have different ideas about that. Personally I find honesty to be the best policy and admit that I simply do not know. Can't really say I care either.

I'm having difficulty determining if neversirth is serious in his views or just a troll attempting (and failing) to offend atheists.

tahnks, atheists have no clue what they believe in, they cant explain creation with their intellect so they just dont want to believe theres something tht propelled creation into being, ignorance...........

[ranma1/2]

tahnks, atheists have no clue what they believe in, they cant explain creation with their intellect so they just dont want to believe theres something tht propelled creation into being, ignorance...........

im not exactly clear on what your saying here. However if you asking how the universe came into being then its a perfectly fine (and in my opinion honst) to say i dont know. Someone can claim to "know " the answer but unless they can show evidence for it then there answer isnt really worth anything. There are several theories on how things began and currently the big bang is one of the leading ones. As for how life began, were still working on that one as well. Saying god did it tell us nothing as to how.

[Pygoscelis]

tahnks, atheists have no clue what they believe in, they cant explain creation with their intellect so they just dont want to believe theres something tht propelled creation into being, ignorance...........

Isn't it just adorable when somebody who can't accept your viewpoint tries to invent a new one for you?

Some theists simply can not accept that nonbelievers don't believe. They have to convince themselves that we're all secretly believers who are rebelling against God (who we know is there) because we want to engage in sin. And it doesn't seem to phase them when you tell them that isn't so. They simply can not get their head around the concept of simply not believing their God exists. I sometimes wonder if they feel threatened by the concept of somebody not believing in their God.

[Pygoscelis]

I'm bored, so I've decided to point out that this

cant explain creation with their intellect

has no apparent connection to this

so they just dont want to believe theres something tht propelled creation into being

A person could very easily not be able to explain it with ones intellect and hope a God is behind it. In fact that is the very God-of-the-gaps logic nevesirth is locked into.

[KAding]

I believe most prophets probably did exist. However, I obviously don't believe they were insprired or 'send down' by God. I never could understand why a God would have any need for prophets and messengers.

[Afifa]

I believe most prophets probably did exist. However, I obviously don't believe they were insprired or 'send down' by God. I never could understand why a God would have any need for prophets and messengers.

he sent down th eprophets and messengers to guide those hu had gone astray..if he didnt where would the world be now? :hmm:

[wilberhum]

he sent down th eprophets and messengers to guide those hu had gone astray..if he didnt where would the world be now? :hmm:

Where is the world Now? :hmm:

[Afifa]

Where is the world Now? :hmm:

yes well the world have gone astray agin nd do not follow the teachings that the prophet muhammed (S.A.W) brought down and which is in the quran....

[Skavau]

you dont believe miracles can happen?

No. Miracles are simply unexplainable acts considered to be wonderful. I do not think that a true miracle is possible, for every act has an explanation. If a specific act has no explanation then existence is reduced to arbitrariness.

do you also believe there are no supernatural occurences in this world?

If supernatural occurrences exist, then they become completely natural and therefore become natural.

Unless you have a different definition here.

or you believe theres a logical explanation for everything

There has to be. The alternative is arbitrariness.

this confirms tht atheists are pple who know tht a god exists but chose to live in denial for some personal reason known to them

I am not even sure what you actually think confirms anything, since I cannot follow your train of thought here - but I can assure you that as an Atheist, my disbelieve in God is sincere. If it was not, I would not be an Atheist.

if the atheist really believe theres no god, then how do they explain creation?

This is a logical fallacy. You presume creation. There is no reason that an Atheist would in fact suppose creation in the slightest. You are projecting your world view onto others.

or do they believe humans and the entire world was created by some intelligent beings from jupiter? or maybe in some years to come, scientists will be able to create another planet with human life as well.

Why presume the world was created when you could rational that it was 'caused'. Why is creation the only possibility?

an intelligent person can never be an atheist, because it takes common sense to realise tht the world came into being by some force beyond the comprehension of the human psyche, call it whatever u want but dont deny tht it does exist........

Ignoring your ad hominem, can you inform us precisely what is logical about presuming that Earth came into existence by some force beyond the comprehension of humanity?

Do you seriously think that the origins of Earth is a completely unknown to scientists?

need not be god, dint i say they can call it whatever they want but they should not try to deny the fact tht it does exist...

Tough.

atheism= denial+ignorance-common sense

Atheism = Disbelief in God or belief there is no God.
You = Bigot

Regards.

[chosen]

wow where would the world be now???? for crying out load..how much worse could the world be??? Maybe it is time for another prophet sent by god..as a christian I dont believe this is going to happen..I am just chilling waiting for the return of Jesus..

[Afifa]

wow where would the world be now???? for crying out load..how much worse could the world be??? Maybe it is time for another prophet sent by god..as a christian I dont believe this is going to happen..I am just chilling waiting for the return of Jesus..

jus asking in wonder as u r a christian..u beilieve that jesus/isa was the last prophet..hu do u tihnk the prophet Muhammed ( S.a.W) was?

[wilberhum]

yes well the world have gone astray agin nd do not follow the teachings that the prophet muhammed (S.A.W) brought down and which is in the quran....

The world has always been astray.
People were astray before Muhammed, during Muhammed's time, and after his time.

[Afifa]

The world has always been astray.
People were astray before Muhammed, during Muhammed's time, and after his time.

not really..before the prophet Isa /Jesus nd after he went people wrent astray again and 571 years later allah sent down the final prophet which was Muhammed S.A.W .. now i dont know how long its been since then but during his time many people came back onto the staright path again...but many have now gone astray..its our job to help spread islam.

[wilberhum]

not really..before the prophet Isa /Jesus nd after he went people wrent astray again and 571 years later allah sent down the final prophet which was Muhammed S.A.W .. now i dont know how long its been since then but during his time many people came back onto the staright path again...but many have now gone astray..its our job to help spread islam.

I guess your definition of "astray" is vastly different than mine. :?

[Afifa]

I guess your definition of "astray" is vastly different than mine. :?

well im saying it as people have let shaytan guide them away from allah swt

[Whatsthepoint]

jus asking in wonder as u r a christian..u beilieve that jesus/isa was the last prophet..hu do u tihnk the prophet Muhammed ( S.a.W) was?

Who do you think the Prophet Joseph Smith (saaw) was?:)

[Afifa]

Who do you think the Prophet Joseph Smith (saaw) was?:)

hu was that? :?

[Amadeus85]

hu was that? :?

He was the one who created mormonism.

[Afifa]

He was the one who created mormonism.

wats dah?...was he before jesus/isa?

[snakelegs]

mormons are a fairly new christian religion, founded in the u.s. many christians don't regard them as christian.
isn't joseph smith a funny name for a prophet? :D

[Amadeus85]

wats dah?...was he before jesus/isa?

Whatsthepoint was making a suggestion that Muhammed wasn't the only man after Christ who claimed to be prophet of God.

[Afifa]

Whatsthepoint was making a suggestion that Muhammed wasn't the only man after Christ who claimed to be prophet of God.

yh im not sayin that before the prophet Muhammed (S.A.W) there were no prophets..There were many prophets..some of which we dont know the name of but we do knw that the final was the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)

[Whatsthepoint]

yh im not sayin that before the prophet Muhammed (S.A.W) there were no prophets..There were many prophets..some of which we dont know the name of but we do knw that the final was the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)

You "know" Mohammad was the final prophet. Christians, on the other hand, "know" Jesus was the final prophet (or something). Mormons "know" the final prophet was Joseph Smith...

[Afifa]

You "know" Mohammad was the final prophet. Christians, on the other hand, "know" Jesus was the final prophet (or something). Mormons "know" the final prophet was Joseph Smith...

are mormans not christians den? :?

['Abd al-Baari]

:sl:

Mormons are like a branch of Christinaty
Some christians accept mormons as christinas wheras others don't
Have a read of this Afifa

:w:

[Resigned]

are mormans not christians den? :?

There seems to be a preoccupation with various religious groups attempting to define out of their religion, various sects or subdivisions that they don’t feel are part of the religion.

At least as I understand it, many Christian groups do not believe that Mormons are “true” Christians. This is primarily because Joseph Smith (a self proclaimed “Prophet”), was in competition Jesus. As I understand it, the sunni sect would dismiss the Shia as not “real” Moslems due to ideological differences.

[barney]

Well Jo was a bit of an exception, because he cobbled up some brass sheets with unintelligible scratches on them, and roped in a few mates to back him up that they were given to him by God.
His funny books entitle him to the "last Prophet" title, because his was the last age where "Prophets" could get a religion started and be beleived.
Now with advanced antipsychotic drugs we can treat Prophets until they realise that God isnt talking to them, they are actually suffering from mental illness.

Unfortunatly, we are 4000 years too late and the damage is done.Mankind has paid the price and will continue to until he wipes himself out. All based on the ravings of madmen.

[Resigned]

Hey barney. That was a great post. And ya’ know, Once you get a group of people to commit to your ideas, then it's a matter of surviving against attacks from those who believe in a competitive believe system. A great "for instance" is Scientology. It was literally borne out of a bet L. Ron Hubbard had where he predicted he could devise a religion and do as well as Jesus.

Well, he didn't but it really worked once he found his "nemesis" -- psychology. Painting psychology as a "demon art" against the far more "astute" Dianetics, Hubbard managed to ensnare millions who had had bad experiences with psychologists. It was a brilliant maneuver, because if you've ever been in therapy, you are bound to have a really bad time of it-- you are either maladjusted anyway, which is why you went to the shrink in the first place, or you are presently in the therapy itself, which is brutal. Anyone who's been in therapy can attest to the deeply difficult aspects of the process that begins as you dredge up experiences you thought were buried. If you bail at those delicate first few weeks, months, or even years, you will likely shun psychoanalysis as evil. Hubbard knew this and good lord, did he capitalize on it.

[barney]

Verily, thats true.
I agree that in the unhinged Hubbard's scam still finds fertile ground.

It is the only way in the days of enlightenment and technology that anyone could recruit beleivers to a new religion.
It's a bit hard to say"And I saw a Glowing light which spaketh", because the stock answer is always " Great...show us your mobile phone footage then please"

[snakelegs]

There seems to be a preoccupation with various religious groups attempting to define out of their religion, various sects or subdivisions that they don’t feel are part of the religion.

At least as I understand it, many Christian groups do not believe that Mormons are “true” Christians. This is primarily because Joseph Smith (a self proclaimed “Prophet”), was in competition Jesus. As I understand it, the sunni sect would dismiss the Shia as not “real” Moslems due to ideological differences.

some protestants even believe that catholics are not christian - go figger....

[DAWUD_adnan]

Nice, the atheists gave a good, explanation on how they see prophets, but keeping one thing in mind, Why would these men, if they were not divinely inspired, do things which would be against their environment and society, for instance, why did Muhammad(saw) still sleep and eat humble, as he never even ate from a table in his life, he would go months without having a proper meal, all to give it to the people who need it. Even after he had the whole of the arabian peninsula?

The sacrifices these men made were not something that would be expected of them, nothing they ever did benefited them, in the material sense, all they asked people was to believe in Allah, that was their dying wish, why? why would they do that?

We dont have to look at the miracles they preformed, tell us, is there ANY one would make such sacrifices as these people would make for Allah and their people.

The Messenger of Allah(saw) was from Al- Quraysh as you know, it would have no benefit for him to do what he did, if he freed slaves his family was losing them, if he helped the poor his family
( uncles) as affected.

The Quraysh asked him to stop, and they said they would give him eveything, women, money, and propery ALL and everything a normal man would take, but he(saw) did not.

Atheists need to start taking the morals and values of these 'people' in to consideration, and how they helped the weak, just think about what these prophets(AS)did.

And why would they all be of the same descend of Abraham?
and why would they all relate their mission to Allah?

Quran says:

And to Ad people We sent their brother Hud. He said: "O my people! Worship Allah! You have no other Ilah (god) but Him; Certainly, you do nothing but invent (lies)! O my people I ask of you no reward for it (the Message). My reward is only from Him Who created me. Will you not then understand? And O my people! Ask forgiveness of your Lord and then repent to Him, He will send you (from the sky) abundant rain, and add strength to your strength, so do not turn away as Mujrimeen (criminals, disbeliveers in the Oneness of Allah)."

P.s Im back in case you havent noticed.lol:giggling:

[wilberhum]

DAWUD_adnan,
If one believes there is no such thing as god, then they can not believe there is such a thing as "divinely inspired".
And I think there are few who don't think many of the stories have little to do with reality .

[barney]

Nice, the atheists gave a good, explanation on how they see prophets, but keeping one thing in mind, Why would these men, if they were not divinely inspired, do things which would be against their environment and society, for instance, why did Muhammad(saw) still sleep and eat humble, as he never even ate from a table in his life, he would go months without having a proper meal, all to give it to the people who need it. Even after he had the whole of the arabian peninsula?

:

I veiw prophets as having up to two major motivators. It's either one or both.

The ones who are motivated by Power, wealth and adoration.
Those who beleive they are really hearing God and follow what the Voices say.

So you can have someone who redily submits to this voices commands but is seduced by the wealth.And those who for whom the Adoration of the masses is enough.

A lot of celebrities couldnt care less about money, the buzz and thrill they get from being on stage is their motivator.
The Pulpit for a preist is like a stage, and the soapbox for the politician. The masses are listening to their words...what else matters?
The aspiring prophet will find this to a even greater extreme.
I Mean, Jesus had people beleiving he was God himself! A trick pulled off by many from Rameses to Hirohito. God in human form.Wow!


You ask about my veiw on Mohammed, I personally have two ways of looking at his motivators.
1) He was devoutly following the instructions he heard in his head and steered clear of wealth to avoid "The Fire"
2) The Adoration of being the only living and indeed the final Prophet was enough for him.

I do wonder however, that in the whole of the Islamic lands at the time of his death, of all the collected Booty from the defeated, which must have been a massive mountain of treasure, one fifth was due to be given to Allah and his Apostle.
If Mohammed wasnt spending or saving all the loot, then all of his share must have been spent by Allah.

I tend to look at what people say about celebrity with a sceptical eye. We have the testomany of a few contemparys about his living style.
I know that if I was passing down infomation on such matters for a emerging religion, I would say that the person in question was the greatest person ever and gave everything he owned to charity and all his bread to the poor and his camels to the elderly.
I would skip over anything that smacked of self-gratification.

Lets take Ron Hubbard: A small time prophet who has only 15 million devotees.(so they say)
Look at how Hubbard is thought of by his followers. A Navy War hero, young fit and athletic, a sharp and inquisitive mind, a leader of mankind into a new age.
They tend to miss out the extended months in Lunatic Asylums, or that his Naval Career was mostly penpushing in a dusty room.
If Scientology really takes off,I mean, like Christianity or Hinduism then in a Hundred years you can expect all copies of Dianetics to be burned and new one published which show him as being a Holy Figure with amazing powers and a Glowing- fiery sword or rifle or something. His early life will be catalogued by people who knew him or "Knew him" or their grandad knew him, and he was a "Navy Admiral who defeated Japan on his own, smiting them with blessed torpedoes, and he lived in humble povery all his life, giving all the profits from Dianetics to Charity as is the Thetans wish".

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ if you study the life of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam you will see that the amount of suffering he went through wasnt worth just being called the "final apostle" 13 years of rejection and persecution... till his message was truelly embraced by a nation.

And we know he didnt want wealth and power, thats evident from his life.

Therefore, he could only be the Messenger of Allaah subhanahu wa ta'ala!

Peace

[czgibson]

Greetings,

^ if you study the life of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam you will see that the amount of suffering he went through wasnt worth just being called the "final apostle" 13 years of rejection and persecution... till his message was truelly embraced by a nation.

Going back to the L. Ron Hubbard example: he was called a nutcase by huge numbers of people for most of his life (much longer than thirteen years) - does that mean that he was telling the truth? I think not.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


Going back to the L. Ron Hubbard example: he was called a nutcase by huge numbers of people for most of his life (much longer than thirteen years) - does that mean that he was telling the truth? I think not.

Peace

lol, thats nothing, did he get tortured/abandoned/deserted/attacked/abused. I know nothing about Hubbard but our prophet was recognised as the most honest man, and he baught us the Quran. What did hubbard bring?!

[------]

:salamext:

Plus many people (non Muslims) recognise the Propher Muhammad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam to be the greatest example of mankind.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

lol, thats nothing, did he get tortured/abandoned/deserted/attacked/abused.

Except for torture, yes, as far as I know. His followers might even claim he was tortured as well. He was frequently the subject of legal action by disgruntled ex-members of his cult.

I know nothing about Hubbard but our prophet was recognised as the most honest man, and he baught us the Quran. What did hubbard bring?!

I'm not supporting Hubbard - he was clearly a megalomaniac and pathological liar - but going by your argument, the fact that he was persecuted means we should believe what he said.

He was the founder of Scientology, by the way. It's a well known religious cult.

Plus many people (non Muslims) recognise the Propher Muhammad Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam to be the greatest example of mankind.

Some do, yes. There's no doubt that Muhammad (pbuh) was an extraordinary man - no other religious leader has reached their 'promised land' within their own lifetime.

It's possible that he genuinely did believe he was in contact with Allah, but that's hardly cast-iron proof that he was.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I'm not supporting Hubbard - he was clearly a megalomaniac and pathological liar - but going by your argument, the fact that he was persecuted means we should believe what he said.

He was the founder of Scientology, by the way. It's a well known religious cult.ce

lol i rest my case. you will not find a single sane, intelligent man who can say the same thing about Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam.

He never lied, and the allegations of illusions and mental illnesses are all baseless.

[barney]

The only Torture that i know the prophet received was when the three men, who's names escape me, threw sheeps entrails on his back as he prayed.
When their tribe was defeated, they were flung down a well, and their children were promised that "Hellfire" would look after them.

I dont know of any other torture the Prophet received except this incident, (which you could argue , he got more than enough revenge for).

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ just to mention a few:

his jewish neighbour would always leave thorns on his path, there was an attempt to strangle/kill him. When he would preach they would stone him till he bleeds profusely. During the battles he was injured severely, and the mental torture also has a long list...

he was also boycotted severely for three years...


theres much more then what ive mentioned, please look into his life story for more details (i know you wont do this though, how sad for you)

[barney]

Ive already looked into his life thanks, in some depth.
(I forgot the alleged poisioning attempt on his life by the Jews).

The wars are self inflicted, mental torture is relevent to how Thick-skinned a person is emotionally, and Boycotting by some people is utterly irrelevent when you have thousands of people who are willing to die to protect you.

I'm going to look further into the stoning as he preached, but I cant see this doing anything other than reinforcing my opinion, that here was a man who was utterly convinced the Voices were from God and a few stones were nothing compared to the horrible fate the voices told him awaited him if he did not comply.

The name & death of his torturers is here By the way, they were flung down the well when they were dead. I kinda asumed they had been alive! Thats what assumption gets ya!:

Sahih Muslim Book 040, Number 6869:

Anas b. Malik reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) let the dead bodies of the unbelievers who fought in Badr (lie unburied) for three days. He then came to them and sat by their side and called them and said: O Abu Jahl b. Hisham, O Umayya b. Khalaf, O Utba b. Rab'ila, O Shaiba b. Rabi'a, have you not found what your Lord had promised with you to be correct? As for me, I have found the promises of my Lord to be (perfectly) correct. Umar listened to the words of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, how do they listen and respond to you? They are dead and their bodies have decayed. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what I am saying to them, even you cannot hear more distinctly than they, but they lack the power to reply. Then he commanded that they should be buried in the well of Badr.

When the men threw the guts at his back he said:"O Allah! Punish Abu Jahl, 'Utba bin Rabi'a, Shaiba bin Rabi'a, Al-Walid bin 'Utba, Umaiya bin Khalaf, and 'Uqba bin Al Mu'it. (Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 241)

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ end of the day barney, he baught the Quran.

whilst his life is a miracle, the Quran is a greater miracle.

Also its amazing that you've read his life and can think there are ulterior motives, Allah knows best your condition.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

lol i rest my case. you will not find a single sane, intelligent man who can say the same thing about Muhammad sallallahi alaihi wasallaam.

Isn't this the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy in another form?

He never lied, and the allegations of illusions and mental illnesses are all baseless.

Fair enough - we all have a right to believe what makes sense to us.

I'm still not completely clear, given what you've said, on why we should listen to Muhammad (pbuh), but we shouldn't listen to L. Ron Hubbard.

Peace

[barney]

It's all each to their own, no compulsion and all that sort of thing. If I'm punished in the everafter with my shirt's of pitch, then Im going to look particually embarrassed.

You have to bear in mind i'm veiwing all the prophets from a humanistic point. As I say, in Mohammeds case, I think he was on balance in the group of prophets who really genuinely and truely beleived his voices. The wealth and adoration, the "Buzz" of being so respected that forever after each time your name is mentioned your faithful utter a little prayer just for you, all of that is speculation. I suppose in a nutshell you could boil it all down to "Did he enjoy being a prophet"?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!

[Isambard]

More people adore and respect the Buddha and Jesus, both of which went thru much greater torture and pain than Muhammed ever did.

[barney]

^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!

Yeah. If God wanted to communicate with us, he would do so. Not to one person by a invisible angel who , in the case of Judism, occassionally mumbles something vauge or to a guy in a cave by attacking him. Or by manifesting himself in human form and waiting 27 odd years before deciding he's God incarnate, then getting himself bumped off in order to wash sin away with his blood.

He would send a uncorruptable message simultaiously to all humanity. Interact with us in a meaningful way. He would live up to his claim of being just and merciful. He wouldnt butcher children for laughing at a bald guys head, or order fighting and war until his rule was supreme, or ask people to eat him up and drink his blood every sunday, or ask people to kill their only son. The list drones on and on.

I work in mental health and I see a lot of people who in days past would be prophets. Most of them would fail it's true, but one would get lucky and with the right incentives (Free Sex, theft of those you murder, dominance over others) there are still cults that even today spring up. There is one in Russia right now, waiting for April next year when armageddon happens. They are holed up in a complex in Siberia with Guns and lots of tinned food.
Their leader is enlightened and bringing to his people his voices commands. They are thrilled to be part of something so exiting.

Hopefully they'll last till next march before blowing themselves to bits or getting stormed by Putins boys.

[Qingu]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:

I believe that Noah was a myth. The flood story in Genesis is basically the same as the flood stories in previous Babylonian myths (the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Epic of Atrahasis). Atrahasis is almost the exact same character as Noah, but instead of Yahweh flooding the earth and saving him, the god Enlil floods it and the god Enki saves him by telling him to build an ark and load it up with animals for sacrifice. It is pretty clear the ancient Hebrews took a well-known Babylonian myth and changed it around for their purposes—many religions do this.

Abraham may be based on ancestor legends passed down through oral tradition, or he may be pure fiction. I feel the same way about Abraham as I do about people like Arjuna and Rama from Hindu mythology—they may be based on real kings who became legendary figures as their stories were told and retold, or they may be myths.

Many elements of Moses' story are obvious myths. For example, the story about him being washed down a river in a basket is identical to an earlier Babylonian legend about King Sargon of Akkad (it's also identical to a Hindu legend about an ancient hero named Karna). I do think the idea of an Egyptian man (Moses is an Egyptian name) leading an exodus out of Egypt into Israel is interesting, though, because around the time this story supposedly happened, a monotheistic religion had sprouted up in Egypt. This religion—founded by a pharoah named Akhenaten—was promptly squashed by his successors. It is the first recorded instance of monotheism in history, and I think it's entirely possible that some of these Egyptian monotheists found their way into Canaan and intermingled with the tribes living there. After all, ancient Judaism is basically Babylonian religion + Egyptian monotheism. So perhaps elements of the Exodus story are based on fact. (That said, I think Moses' laws are some of the all-time worst laws in the history of human civilization ... he is the only religious leader to command genocide, as far as I am aware)

I think Jesus and Muhammad existed. I know there are some atheists who say Jesus never existed. But that leaves a lot to explain—for example, if Paul and Peter just invented Jesus out of whole-cloth, where did the pre-Pauline cult of Christians come from? Obviously, I don't accept Jesus' miracles and I think much of his teachings were lost or distorted by the much-later gospel writers. But I think he almost certainly existed.

I also don't see any reason to doubt Muhammad's existence. Though I don't believe he talked to an angel or rode up into the sky on the back of a flying donkey with the face of a beautiful woman.

[Pygoscelis]

Riding a flying donkey with the face of a woman? Are you poking fun or is this actually part of the religions doctrine?

[Joe98]

^ what makes you so readily dismiss him being a prophet?!

is it because you find it hard to perceive that God can send an angel to bring revelation to a human?!

Yes.

Perhaps god was too busy that day and sent an angel. But wait a sec. The Koran was revealed over 20 years.

God must have been too busy for 20 years so he sent an angel.

Of course to god, 20 years is a split second and so god must have been busy for a split second and so sent an angel in his place.

-

[barney]

Riding a flying donkey with the face of a woman? Are you poking fun or is this actually part of the religions doctrine?

http://www.musesrealm.net/deities/alburak.html
Al Burak is the Prophets mount that carried him to the "Furtherest Place", it was a hybrid donkey or horse with the torso of face of a woman.
It's not poking fun, it's a genuine Muslim beleif.

When it leaped off the Rock to carry him into heaven on his nights journey, it left a hoofprint in the rock, still visible today at the Dome of the rock.

[NYCmuslim]

... or rode up into the sky on the back of a flying donkey with the face of a beautiful woman.

Hmmm, I find that very funny. I've never heard of that and I doubt that its true.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

http://www.musesrealm.net/deities/alburak.html
Al Burak is the Prophets mount that carried him to the "Furtherest Place", it was a hybrid donkey or horse with the torso of face of a woman.
It's not poking fun, it's a genuine Muslim beleif.

I just checked and it seems you're not kidding. Wow. Is there anyone here who believes in Al Burak?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.


No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.


Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.


Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.

It's more the 'showing himself' part, I think. Any good evidence of his existence would change the situation.

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Greetings,


It's more the 'showing himself' part, I think. Any good evidence of his existence would change the situation.

Peace

gibson i have respect for you :).

But honestly, is it that necessary that God must show himself?

If God prefers it this way, then shouldnt we weigh out the message he sends, look at it and think "does this sound like truth?!"

[czgibson]

Greetings,

gibson i have respect for you :).

Why thank you. I have respect for you too. :)

But honestly, is it that necessary that God must show himself?

I don't believe in the existence of any object that does not show itself in some way. Exceptions would be some scientific conceptual objects (like electrons) that don't behave in the way regular objects do. We still have a lot to learn about them, but I still believe in them provisionally because they seem to me to be the best explanations currently available.

Given what you've said, what would stop you from believing in the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Is it necessary that he shows himself too?

If God prefers it this way, then shouldnt we weigh out the message he sends, look at it and think "does this sound like truth?!"

I'm sure that's exactly the way that many people come to Islam. Not for me, though. I've read nothing in the Qur'an that couldn't have been writen by a human.

Btw, what do you think about Al Burak?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I'm sure that's exactly the way that many people come to Islam. Not for me, though. I've read nothing in the Qur'an that couldn't have been writen by a human.

i see, perhaps the situation and the way ones life has developed, state of mind and many other factors also matter.
I honestly believe Allaah guides whom he wills, but so many times i feel sad when i see people striving in this life, they seem so honest and hardworking but i have faith that Allaah knows best.

Btw, what do you think about Al Burak?

Peace

The beast sent to our prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam who helped him travel to jerusalem and then ascend the heavens, i think he existed and still does exist as he will be used again in the day of judgement :).

[Isambard]

i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.


No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.


Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.


Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.

Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.

if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!


i dont like to follow falsehood, if i ever thought the Quran was controdictory i wouldnt believe in it (audhubillaah) but its not, its a lack of understanding on your part

[Isambard]

if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!


i dont like to follow falsehood, if i ever thought the Quran was controdictory i wouldnt believe in it (audhubillaah) but its not, its a lack of understanding on your part

Well I believe Islamic philosophy is contradictory, but thats besides the point.
The concept of God himself is contradictory.

Epicurus puts it best

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? "

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Im more put off by the inherent contradictions that the typical theistic concept of God presents rather than he not showing himself to me to be honest.

There's also that, true. As Hume said, "Epicurus' old questions are yet unanswered."

if you put your understanding before the scholars of the scriptures then how do you expect to not be confused?!

Individuals should be entitled to think for themselves. I think that is one of the most important reasons why I could never be a Muslim. Remember also that, from an atheist point of view, the scholars are there to present, explain and to give an appearance of rationality to a world view that atheists believe is mistaken.

Peace

[Resigned]

i see, many of you have a problem with God not showing himself or speaking to you.

Unless you can demonstrate otherwise, there’s no verifiable evidence that any god(s) has ever spoken to anyone. If you believe god has spoken to you, that’s fine (I’m taking a step backward and watching where your hands are). Science really only embraces viable theories; otherwise, it would have to consider every claim no matter how outlandish. If you need one example, does the science of psychiatry need to step back and not make any conclusions about the clichéd lunatic who believes he is Napoleon, and that Kaiser Wilhelm is stealing his socks on a nightly basis? Do we have to sit back and wait until "tools are developed to assess the possibility that Napoleon and Kaiser Wilhelm reincarnate" (and the Kaiser has a sock fetish) or do we conclude the patient is delusional?

It's the curious lack of evidence that is what makes the various claims of god(s) all so suspicious. It's the repetitive nature of other, earlier messiah myths that gives one pause to ask, "Is this an original event? If so, why so many similarities to earlier "events" we know are prosaic mythology?" Why the odd timing of the "resurrection" to be at a time of the year already well known and saturated with previous religious beliefs of rebirth, so much so that to this day the name of "Easter" is a descendant of the word "Oestre" (Ishtar)? Why bring into the world your primary messiah in a land rife with messiahs-of-the-week?

No wonder theres this new phenomenon of born again christians and the spirit coming within subhanAllaah.

Born again Christians are certainly not a new or even recent phenomenon.

Now i understand where it comes from, this yearning, shaytaan abuses your minds.

The arguments of creationists are not driven by evidence that can be observed in the natural world. Special creation, Shaytans, Jinn, etc., or other supernatural intervention is not subjectable to meaningful tests, which require predicting plausible results and then checking these results through observation and experimentation. Indeed, claims of "special creation" and other supernatural interventions reverse the scientific process. The explanation is seen as unalterable, and evidence is sought only to support a particular conclusion by whatever means possible.

Allaah can send messages however he likes, if you dislike it, its you that shall answer for rejecting the truth.

It’s a bit disingenuous to claim that allah has sent any message of truth.

Certainly every religion, believing itself the arbiter of what is "god-given" takes on the mantle of this authority. While I will say for the record that religious belief served a purpose in human history, for the most part there are better models that serve human requirements for these things, and they do it in terms of the common good as opposed to an external authority commanding us on pain or threat of punishment to do the things that are morally justified. As time goes on, these wholly secular paradigms will grow larger and more potent, and religion will fade (and yes, there will be many false starts and huge errors).

[barney]

A reveiw found on Amazon:
The Last Kaiser.By Mo Bushell (Aldbourne, Wiltshire United Kingdom) - See all my reviews
The Last Kaiser is one of the most badly written and poorly edited historical biographies I have ever read .............(the only facts I am able to remember is that the Kaiser owned 6 shirts, 12 pairs of socks and over 300 uniforms ...

Verily! He hath returned! The EMPEROR NAPOLEON HIMSELF! I (as a Decendent-member of his ever loyal Imperial Gaurd), will rise against Kaiser Wilheim and end his sock stealing antics from our much loved emperor and free his excellency from the "Psychiatric " hospital where the Evil British detain him.

..................There you see. A "scholar" of such a subject can find whatever evidence they like in scripture. Even if this scripture is a biography of Kaiser Willy.

[Qingu]

Hmmm, I find that very funny. I've never heard of that and I doubt that its true.

Don't almost all Muslims accept the authenticity of the Bukhari hadith?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Though I notice that in this description the creature does not have the face of a woman. In any case, the Buraq appears in a famous Muslim art piece and I've heard of it elsewhere, so correct me if I'm wrong.

[DAWUD_adnan]

Don't almost all Muslims accept the authenticity of the Bukhari hadith?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Though I notice that in this description the creature does not have the face of a woman. In any case, the Buraq appears in a famous Muslim art piece and I've heard of it elsewhere, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes, Al-buraq is real, but i dont get the rest of your comment could you plz explain???

P.S
Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah and that they had no worldy motivations( their lives show this). and why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?

But is more humble than you, The Messenger of Allah could have lived the most extravegant worldly live both before and after his Mission, however, he chose to stay with the weak and poor, slaves etc.

Plz, he(saw) was REAL !

ow, and jeus never claimed to be God,NEVER ever..

[barney]

This is what it looks like, (or is supposed to look like)

[DAWUD_adnan]

This is what it looks like, (or is supposed to look like)[/QUOTE]


This, has no Quranic support, it is WRONG, we cannot even draw pictures anyway, this looks like persian to me..

[barney]

Might be persian.

Hadith of the Night Journey and Ascension
Al-Isra' wa Mi'raj

It is narrated on the authority of Anas ibn Malik that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said:

I was brought al-buraq who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to Bait-al Maqdis (Jerusalem). I then tethered it to the ring used by the prophets. I entered the area of the Mosque and prayed two rak'at in it. I then came out and Gabriel brought me a vessel of wine and a vessel of milk. I chose the milk, and Gabriel said, 'You have chosen al-fitra, the natural way'.
He then ascended with me into the lower heavens and requested that they be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Adam. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Then we ascended to the second heaven and Gabriel requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and when I entered Jesus and John welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the third heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Joseph, who was given a great portion of beauty. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the fourth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Enoch. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the fifth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Aaron. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the sixth heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Moses. He welcomed me and prayed for my well-being.
Gabriel then ascended with me to the seventh heaven and requested that it be opened. It was said: 'Who are you?' He responded: 'Gabriel'. It was then said: 'Who is with you?' He responded: 'Muhammad'. It was then said: 'Has revelation been sent to him?' He responded: 'Revelation has been sent to him'. It was then opened for us and there I was with Abraham who was leaning against the bayt al-ma`mur into which enter seventy thousand angels each day never to return.
Then I was brought to the sidrat al-muntaha, the Lote Tree of the Furthest Limit, whose leaves were like the ears of an elephant and whose fruits at first appeared insignificant. But when Allah spread His command over them they transformed to the point where no one in creation could describe their beauty. Then Allah revealed what He revealed to me. He then made obligatory for me fifty prayers every night and day.
I began my descent until I reached Moses who asked me: 'What has your Lord made obligatory for your community?' I said to him, 'Fifty prayers.' He then said, 'Return to your Lord and ask Him to reduce them, your community will not be able to bear that. I know the people of Israel from long experience and I have tested them.' I then returned to my Lord and said, 'O Lord, make things lighter for my people'. He then reduced it by five prayers for me. I then returned to Moses and he said to me, 'Your community will not be able to stand that. So return and ask Him to make things lighter.' I kept going between my Lord and Moses until Allah said, 'O Muhammad, there are five prayers every night and day. Each prayer is equal to ten prayers making them equal to fifty prayers. Whoever intends a good deed and does not do it, there will be written for him a single good deed. If he does it then there will be written for him ten good deeds. Whoever intends an evil deed and does not do it then there is nothing written against him. If he does it then there is written for him one evil deed.'
I then descended until I reached Moses and informed him of what had occurred. He then said to me, 'Return to your Lord and ask Him to make things lighter.' The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace then said, 'I have returned to my Lord until I felt ashamed before Him."

from the hadith collection of Sahih Muslim

[NYCmuslim]

Don't almost all Muslims accept the authenticity of the Bukhari hadith?

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Though I notice that in this description the creature does not have the face of a woman. In any case, the Buraq appears in a famous Muslim art piece and I've heard of it elsewhere, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Not me, I don't believe that any hadith book is completley authentic. Its a man-made work and therefore it has innaccuracies. But that is a whole 'nother discussion that I rather not bring into this thread. Unless there are other atheist members who would like to give their input to my original question or we can stay on topic to this thread, I think this thread should be closed.

Peace
:w:

[Pygoscelis]

Its a lady pegasus centaur!

[crayon]

"I was brought al-buraq who is an animal white and long, larger than a donkey but smaller than a mule, who would place its hoof at a distance equal to the range of vision. I mounted it and came to Bait-al Maqdis (Jerusalem)."

Yup, most muslims believe in this.
As for the buraq having a womans face, this is the first time I've ever heard that. And like Dawud said, that painting shouldn't have been drawn in the first place, and even if it was drawn in relation to the text of the hadeeth, a womans face isn't mentioned anywhere in it.

[barney]

The womans face is because the Al Baraq was a mythical Middle easten beast , long before Islam. So when Mohammed said he had ridden one, it wasnt neccessery to do the full description. The people knew what it looked like from their legends, a horse with a face.

But yeah, the Buraq is a distraction, so we ought to get back on thread.

[Isambard]

Yes, Al-buraq is real, but i dont get the rest of your comment could you plz explain???

P.S
Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah and that they had no worldy motivations( their lives show this). and why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?

But is more humble than you, The Messenger of Allah could have lived the most extravegant worldly live both before and after his Mission, however, he chose to stay with the weak and poor, slaves etc.

Plz, he(saw) was REAL !

ow, and jeus never claimed to be God,NEVER ever..

You are using a book who's info cannot be verified by any other sources (actually it conflicts with other sources) to cite history from it to prove your point.

Anyone else see a problem with this arguement?

[Resigned]

Peace.

I believe my question was pretty self-explanatory. How do atheists view Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, and the other prophets (peace upon them all)? Do you think they were actual people that walked this earth or are they just myths? Do you believe in the stories that surround them? Do you think that they were sent down for a message and purpose? Im just curious about the subject and would like to know.

Many thanks
:w:

I suppose the mere fact that there really is no consensus as to who, or even if, the noted characters were real or not (leaving aside the “prophet” label), is telling.

None of these tenets are unique to Christianity or Islam of course, but it's this sort of statement that sets the whole ball rolling -- if the stories and characters in the various holy books are exaggerations or stories that have been embellished over centuries, then how do you define what is to be accepted and what is to be rejected? Did Jesus rise from the dead? If yes, why is that an acceptable story but, oh, let's say, the parting of the red sea is an exaggeration? If not, then why the belief in Christianity at all, when any other religion would do, and in fact non-religious moral codes would works as well? Did Mohammed rise to heaven on a golden staircase? Did god talk to Noah and Moses? Is that an exaggeration? If yes, then why does one accept anything from a book that is part fiction and tells such tall tales?
You assume it was really they who wrote the gospels. If you were willing to be objective, you would admit you have no corroboration that any of the gospels were authored by Luke, Matthew, Mark, John or that any “truths” were revealed to Mohammed. You are simply accepting they were. So what happens if the accounts of the “prophets” were written by priests who were trying to codify messianic fervor of the time, and they did so writing a fictional account of a messiah? What if the real Jesus is an Essene priest who lived 100 years before? Suddenly that could explain a few things. Like why the stories are so differing in key elements. And the tonal nature of them, and so on.

Anyway, let’s explore this. I've always enjoyed the Judeo concept of being able to haggle with god-- it's awesome, and in fact I truly wish it were still in effect, as this would be exactly what I would embrace to believe fully.

In a way I have always "envied" the prophets and messengers of the Judeo-Christian cast of characters. I mean, exactly how much faith did any of them really need? Adam? Talks to God directly. Noah? Same. Abraham? Moses? Same. Joshua? David? Same, same. Even Job. Jesus-- man he gets it all! Despite a lot of call for faith, most of the key characters in the OT don't have to bother with it much at all-- they know, don't they? And I don't mean silent messages in their heads-- these guys have actual conversations-- if not "face to face", then with a deep resonant voice. In any event, this sort of direct communication no longer occurs, nor do the miracles of the holy texts.

Beliefs and choosing sides is important, certainly, but the standards by which we come to those beliefs and choices is of paramount importance. It’s a core component in how we treat and react to both events and people. The Theistic folks, however, trample all over critical thinking by alluding to only completely mortal environments to explain something you all already admit is really beyond your capacity to understand, let alone explain. Just so: if I perceive something outside of logic, I am admitting it is illogical, and if I dismiss the rational, I am admitting it must be irrational. And given the construction of reality, the illogical and the irrational are not standards by which truth can ever be ascertained.

That's why theists clash constantly over doctrine and dogma. Even Muslims will clash badly with other Muslims, as we all know from experience on this board (Did I say "Even"? I meant "Especially").

[truemuslim]

lol y'all athiests dunt even know ur prophets..hilarius

[Resigned]

lol y'all athiests dunt even know ur prophets..hilarius

For myself only, I was including others beside "prophets" who were historical, religious characters.

"Dunt" you know how to spell "your"? Something tells me you may not be the most authoritative source on the block.

[truemuslim]

For myself only, I was including others beside "prophets" who were historical, religious characters.

"Dunt" you know how to spell "your"? Something tells me you may not be the most authoritative source on the block.

something tells me you dont know how people talk in text language..hmm...like ..: lyf= life dunt= dont u- you ur= your btw= by the way and a mil more oh and mil = million.

lol no offence but i was like reading what u said and ur like "who were historical" and the first thing that cam into my mind was "who were histaracle" or howevr u spell dat. lol. .lol.lol.lol.and u still dunt kno ur prophets

[wilberhum]

lol y'all athiests dunt even know ur prophets..hilarius

Belief in god does not give knowledge. :D

No belief in god does not take away knowledge. :uuh:

[truemuslim]

Belief in god does not give knowledge. :D

No belief in god does not take away knowledge. :uuh:

i think ur one of those ppl who have no religion...anyway, belief in any god doesnt give you knowledge,
belief in ALLAH gives you all the
knowledge you need :D

[wilberhum]

i think ur one of those ppl who have no religion...anyway, belief in any god doesnt give you knowledge,
belief in ALLAH gives you all the
knowledge you need :D

Right, go memorize the Quran and go look for a job.

Does Allah tell you how to balance your check book?

Woops, I forgot, no education, no job, no money, no check book.

[Isambard]

lol y'all athiests dunt even know ur prophets..hilarius

Atheism doesnt have prophets.

You dont know what atheism means.

[truemuslim]

Atheism doesnt have prophets.

You dont know what atheism means.

yep and id rather not

[truemuslim]

Right, go memorize the Quran and go look for a job.

Does Allah tell you how to balance your check book?

Woops, I forgot, no education, no job, no money, no check book.

yes but allah gives you the time and money and everything you need to get an education, and he gave yout the brain to be able to learn, and then he lets you find an opportunity to work, and if he wants he can make all that gone in a sec.

[wilberhum]

yep and id rather not

So knowledge is a bad thing. :hiding:

Interesting.

[wilberhum]

yes but allah gives you the time and money and everything you need to get an education, and he gave yout the brain to be able to learn, and then he lets you find an opportunity to work, and if he wants he can make all that gone in a sec.

How much money do Allah give you?

Does he write a check or give you cash?

[truemuslim]

So knowledge is a bad thing. :hiding:

Interesting.

no, athiest isnt knowledge

How much money do Allah give you?

Does he write a check or give you cash?

does it matter?? this life is all a test anyway! you will see..when its too late of course, islam was the first and last religion..and at least it makes sense.

[truemuslim]

How much money do Allah give you?

Does he write a check or give you cash?

oh and im guessing in ur religion u dont have a god, i mean, money just apears there, just like you, and ur house, and ur family... and the earth just magically appeared there, with all the trees and water. just like inventions nowadays, some human came and created the earth

[wilberhum]

oh and im guessing in ur religion u dont have a god, i mean, money just apears there, just like you, and ur house, and ur family... and the earth just magically appeared there, with all the trees and water. just like inventions nowadays, some human came and created the earth

Let me guess. Your a 12 year old who is just coming into the realization that you know everything.

Don't worry, over the next 10 years you will start to understand how little you know and know how little you understand.

In the mean time when you see terms like agnostic and atheist that you don't understand, ask some one or consult a dictionary.

[truemuslim]

Let me guess. Your a 12 year old who is just coming into the realization that you know everything.

Don't worry, over the next 10 years you will start to understand how little you know and know how little you understand.

In the mean time when you see terms like agnostic and atheist that you don't understand, ask some one or consult a dictionary.

age: WRONG..i think u just givin ur age... no offence... and NOWAY i dont want to know anything about these fake religions... islam was the FIRST religion...these came like after ppl were even born! but islam, we have an answer for everything..u NO!

test: for non-muslims

1. who is your "god"?
2. Do you have messengers?
3. who gave you what you have today?
4. what direction is your god facing right now?
5. what is your "god" doing right now?
and
6. what came before your religion, and when did your religion start?


speechless ,eh?

[Qingu]

Yes, Al-buraq is real, but i dont get the rest of your comment could you plz explain???

What about my comment did you not understand?

P.S
Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah

We don't know what the prophets said. We don't even know that many of them existed. Our only sources are highly sectarian religious texts written hundreds or thousands of years after they lived.

why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?

Thought experiment:

Let's say I told you I am a prophet of God. I don't ask you for money, or any material rewards. But I tell you that if you do not blindly follow me and obey everything I tell you to do, you will burn in hell.

This describes almost all the prophets—Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad. You really think these people weren't asking anything of their followers?

But is more humble than you,

How did you arrive at this conclusion? I have no desire to build up a cult of personality or threaten people who don't obey my will. I also don't have any desire to marry 12 wives. I know I may be kind of an elitist misanthrope, but I certainly don't pretend that I have all the answers in my "holy book," nor do I feel confident condemning all who disagree with me to eternal torture. Compared to these prophets I think I'm pretty humble! :)

[truemuslim]

Let's say I told you I am a prophet of God. I don't ask you for money, or any material rewards. But I tell you that if you do not blindly follow me and obey everything I tell you to do, you will burn in hell.

This describes almost all the prophets—Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad. You really think these people weren't asking anything of their followers?

u think its just like that?????? OMG!!!!!

First, explain how out of all people Sulaiman (saw) was able to understand animals?
and how Muhammed (saw) was able to split the moon?
and how Yunus (saw) was able to lie in a whale for 40 days without suffering or dying?
and all the other miracles of prophets???:zip:

[wilberhum]

age: WRONG..
Then I have to assume less than 12.
i think u just givin ur age... no offence..
None taken. I'm proud of my age. It took a long time to get it. :D
. and NOWAY i dont want to know anything about these fake religions...
You seem to have a problem with knowledge. Why do you fear knowledge? How do you expect to understand with out knowledge?
islam was the FIRST religion...
What? There were thousands of religions before Islam. If you weren’t adverse to knowledge you would know that.
these came like after ppl were even born! but islam, we have an answer for everything..u NO!
Yes, no is the correct answer to your question.

test: for non-muslims

1. who is your "god"? The creator.
2. Do you have messengers? No.
3. who gave you what you have today? That is a long list. It includes me.
4. what direction is your god facing right now? Spirits have no face.
5. what is your "god" doing right now? I don't know. I asked him but he didn't answer. He has a bad habit of that.
and
6. what came before your religion, and when did your religion start? Well for me it was Catholicism and it started around 2 thousand years ago. About 600 years before yours.
speechless ,eh?
How so? You have answers where there no questions and have questions where there are no universal answers.

May be when you get all grown up, say 12, you may start to understand.

[Gator]

test: for non-muslims

1. who is your "god"? There is no creator of the universe "god".
2. Do you have messengers? No.
3. who gave you what you have today? Don't know what you mean on this, but I'd say I've worked for what I have in general.
4. what direction is your god facing right now? No god (see above)
5. what is your "god" doing right now? Not applicable
and
6. what came before your religion, and when did your religion start? Not applicable


speechless ,eh? Don't know why I'd be speachless.

Hello, this thread is getting a bit heated and don't know if I'm jumping on someone elses line of thought here. My answers are above in blue, if you really want to know what I think.

Thanks.

[ranma1/2]

u think its just like that?????? OMG!!!!!

First, explain how out of all people Sulaiman (saw) was able to understand animals?
and how Muhammed (saw) was able to split the moon?
and how Yunus (saw) was able to lie in a whale for 40 days without suffering or dying?
and all the other miracles of prophets???:zip:

easy, the same way thor throws down lighting, herucles carried the world on his back and zeus lived forever.

its a story.

or do you have evidence?

[Ummu Sufyaan]

we have evidence, problem is you have trouble accepting it :sunny:

[ranma1/2]

age: WRONG..i think u just givin ur age... no offence... and NOWAY i dont want to know anything about these fake religions... islam was the FIRST religion...these came like after ppl were even born! but islam, we have an answer for everything..u NO!

test: for non-muslims

1. who is your "god"?
2. Do you have messengers?
3. who gave you what you have today?
4. what direction is your god facing right now?
5. what is your "god" doing right now?
and
6. what came before your religion, and when did your religion start?

speechless ,eh?

islam cleary was not the first religion. It was founded centuries after christanity.
1 none.
2. I use MSN does taht count?
3. well my parents raised me but i live on my own now.
4. N/A
5. N/A
6. N/A
nope.

[Qingu]

First, explain how out of all people Sulaiman (saw) was able to understand animals?

Why don't you explain why you believe Suliemon could understand animals. Do you believe in Dr. Doolittle too?

and how Muhammed (saw) was able to split the moon?

Again, why don't you tell me why you believe this. It's physically impossible. And even if it was "God magic" we'd still have records, as I'm sure the hundreds of non-Muslim astrologers would have noticed and frantically recorded their observance of the moon splitting.

and how Yunus (saw) was able to lie in a whale for 40 days without suffering or dying?

Whale? I thought it was a fish.

and all the other miracles of prophets???:zip:

You are assuming these miracles actually happened.

Can you explain how mighty Arjuna was able to split a mountain in half with his bow and arrows?

Can you explain how the monkey-god Hanuman picked up a mountain and threw it across the sea from Indian to Sri Lanka?

Can you explain how Joseph Smith received magical golden tablets from an angel that told him how Jesus appeared to the native Americans?

Because obviously all these miracles really occured—since religious texts say they did.

[Ummu Sufyaan]

islam cleary was not the first religion. It was founded centuries after christanity.

where is your proof for this?

[wilberhum]

u think its just like that?????? OMG!!!!!

First, explain how out of all people Sulaiman (saw) was able to understand animals? He didn't. It is just a story.
and how Muhammed (saw) was able to split the moon? He didn't. It is just a story.
and how Yunus (saw) was able to lie in a whale for 40 days without suffering or dying? He didn't. It is just a story.
and all the other miracles of prophets???:zip:
There are no prophets olr miracles they are just stories.

I don't believe Ra commanded sky, earth, underworld either.

[truemuslim]

we have evidence, problem is you have trouble accepting it :sunny:

thank YOU :D

easy, the same way thor throws down lighting, herucles carried the world on his back and zeus lived forever.

its a story.

or do you have evidence?

yep its a story..ours...not

Hello, this thread is getting a bit heated and don't know if I'm jumping on someone elses line of thought here. My answers are above in blue, if you really want to know what I think.

Thanks.

1. think??? lol...and also you answered all WRONG!! you guys are bad at answering

May be when you get all grown up, say 12, you may start to understand.

oh and before islam?? never happened...like i have been saying... islam was the first religion... Adam (saw) was the first person on earth, and he believed in allah (swa) and he had kids with the second person on earth, huwwa , and her kids had kids, and so on... but you guys have NO EXPLANATION! and if your thinkin islam came when the quraan came..then you need to see a doctor...then check google...translate the quraan..then come back...hehe...

[Qingu]

where is your proof for this?

The lack of any Islamic theology whatsoever in the world before the early 7th century? The Quran's obvious derivation from earlier Christian, Jewish, and Arabian myths?

You do realize that just because a religious text says it's a million years old does not make it so, yes? Or do you believe that Scientology predates all religions because it says so in Dianetics?

[truemuslim]

Why don't you explain why you believe Suliemon could understand animals. Do you believe in Dr. Doolittle too?


Again, why don't you tell me why you believe this. It's physically impossible. And even if it was "God magic" we'd still have records, as I'm sure the hundreds of non-Muslim astrologers would have noticed and frantically recorded their observance of the moon splitting.


Whale? I thought it was a fish.


You are assuming these miracles actually happened.

Can you explain how mighty Arjuna was able to split a mountain in half with his bow and arrows?

Can you explain how the monkey-god Hanuman picked up a mountain and threw it across the sea from Indian to Sri Lanka?

Can you explain how Joseph Smith received magical golden tablets from an angel that told him how Jesus appeared to the native Americans?

Because obviously all these miracles really occured—since religious texts say they did.

you know..have you ever heard of ..hmm...legands?? stories??? yep..well if u have...then all u said was one of them that some guy wanted to make true..of course some people are actually dumb enough to believe it..no offence..hehe:D

[wilberhum]

where is your proof for this?

If you clam Islam is the first, the proving is clearly up to you.
Quotes from a book that the vast majority of people reject is not proof.

[Qingu]

Do the Muslims on this board realize that non-Muslims do not accept the Quran?

You all seem to be operating under the assumption that if the Quran says something, everyone should believe it's true. Can you rationally defend this assumption? Or do you think repeating your claims over and over again makes them true?

[truemuslim]

If you clam Islam is the first, the proving is clearly up to you.
Quotes from a book that the vast majority of people reject is not proof.

here go try this... Go to somewhere and buy a quran..then change the words in it... and copy it and give some to people... or take the quraan, step on it, rip it... I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! becuase it aint possible...and if you do..and it is possible...then you will have a really severe punishment once u dead.

[Qingu]

you know..have you ever heard of ..hmm...legands?? stories??? yep..well if u have...then all u said was one of them that some guy wanted to make true..of course some people are actually dumb enough to believe it..no offence..hehe:D

Ah.

So let me get this straight.

Guy finds golden tablets from an angel—LEGEND.

Guy rides a flying, woman-faced donkey up into the sky—FACT.

Talking divine monkey battles demons—STORY.

Jews turn into monkeys and are possessed by invisible djinn—TRUTH.

I'm curious as to how you tell the difference.

[truemuslim]

The lack of any Islamic theology whatsoever in the world before the early 7th century? The Quran's obvious derivation from earlier Christian, Jewish, and Arabian myths?

You do realize that just because a religious text says it's a million years old does not make it so, yes? Or do you believe that Scientology predates all religions because it says so in Dianetics?

no not really... you dont even know ur god. or anything... DUMB!!! ^^^

[truemuslim]

Ah.

So let me get this straight.

Guy finds golden tablets from an angel—LEGEND.

Guy rides a flying, woman-faced donkey up into the sky—FACT.

Talking divine monkey battles demons—STORY.

Jews turn into monkeys and are possessed by invisible djinn—TRUTH. HAHA

I'm curious as to how you tell the difference.

and no all of those are STORIES OF SOME GUY OR GUYS WHO WANT TO BE REMEMBERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[Ummu Sufyaan]

If you clam Islam is the first, the proving is clearly up to you.
Quotes from a book that the vast majority of people reject is not proof.

i can prove and prove all i want, the problem is the fact that you cant accpet it.

[ranma1/2]

here go try this... Go to somewhere and buy a quran..then change the words in it... and copy it and give some to people... or take the quraan, step on it, rip it... I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! becuase it aint possible...and if you do..and it is possible...then you will have a really severe punishment once u dead.

lol, its not possible, except of course when it is.

[Qingu]

and no all of those are STORIES OF SOME GUY OR GUYS WHO WANT TO BE REMEMBERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

You believe al-Buraq and Allah turning Jews into monkeys and djinn are just stories of some guy who wants to be remembered?

[truemuslim]

maryam u r soooo write... they are just too stubborn..and ranma1/2 i think u should re read what i JUST SAID!! i said and if it is possible you will get the worste punishment of all..u know no time is left at the end!!!

[ranma1/2]

maryam u r soooo write... they are just too stubborn..and ranma1/2 i think u should re read what i JUST SAID!! i said and if it is possible you will get the worste punishment of all..u know no time is left at the end!!!

i did, im still lauging. i dohave a question what if we have a ebook of hte quran and we chagne words or delete it. Is that ok? And which god should i worry more about, the christain and the islamic god both threaten to burn me for every or some similar nastiness. Neither have really cared to let me knowthey exists though. who shoudl i choose andwhy?

[wilberhum]

oh and before islam?? never happened...like i have been saying... islam was the first religion... Adam (saw) was the first person on earth, and he believed in allah (swa) and he had kids with the second person on earth, huwwa , and her kids had kids, and so on...
But Adan never existed. He is nothing but another myth.
but you guys have NO EXPLANATION!
My old favorite. Two people were asked what the square root of 8 was. One said "two"; the other said "I don't know". Which was right? Just because you give an answer, that doesn’t mean you are correct. It may be just be an indicator that you are so stupid that you don’t know you are stupid.
and if your thinkin islam came when the quraan came..then you need to see a doctor...then check google...translate the quraan..then come back...hehe...
Anyone can claim anything. I can claim Ishmael is god and Moby Dick is the proof.

If what you think is so obvious, was so obvious, the world would be Muslim.

[ranma1/2]

serioulsy though, Truemuslim , your a POE right? you know your supposed to add smilies to yout posts.

[truemuslim]

ISLAM BECAUSE THERE IS A MILLION THINGS TO PROVE IT!! and if you have an ebook about the quraan and you change the word to whatever you want or delete words then allah will punish you for it really severely. please just understand the truth.

[truemuslim]

serioulsy though, Truemuslim , your a POE right? you know your supposed to add smilies to yout posts.

what??

[wilberhum]

i can prove and prove all i want, the problem is the fact that you cant accpet it.

I won't accept? How about the vast majority of the world won't accept.

When 4 out of 5 people say "Your wrong". I don't assume that 80% of the people are stupid.

[Isambard]

ISLAM BECAUSE THERE IS A MILLION THINGS TO PROVE IT!! and if you have an ebook about the quraan and you change the word to whatever you want or delete words then allah will punish you for it really severely. please just understand the truth.

I think you mean a million fallacies to prove it.

Anyways. My cat peed on this little orange Qur'an that I have the other day when I forgot to let him out of my room during the night. Will Allah punish him as well?^o)

[truemuslim]

I think you mean a million fallacies to prove it.

Anyways. My cat peed on this little orange Qur'an that I have the other day when I forgot to let him out of my room during the night. Will Allah punish him as well?^o)

first of all is it even real quraan? and its an animal u stupid. oh and y would u have a quraan in ur house? finally found the truth. ( i hope)

[wilberhum]

here go try this... Go to somewhere and buy a quran..then change the words in it... and copy it and give some to people... or take the quraan, step on it, rip it... I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! becuase it aint possible...and if you do..and it is possible...then you will have a really severe punishment once u dead.

The only problem is why would I waist my time and money?
How do you know what will happen when I die?

How do you know I won't get 73 (One more than 72) virgins?

[truemuslim]

I won't accept? How about the vast majority of the world won't accept.

When 4 out of 5 people say "Your wrong". I don't assume that 80% of the people are stupid.

first of all islam is the best religion, and the most reasonable religion, only racists and stupid people dont want to know the truth of islam. (U) ^o) yea and anyway how many people do you know that have converted to christianity or athiest or hindu or agnostic??? and how many muslims do we know are converts and are really happier than before???? MILLIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

[wilberhum]

no not really... you dont even know ur god. or anything... DUMB!!! ^^^

How do you know what he knows? Are you not the one that doesn't want knowledge? Maybe I have you mixed up with someone else.
The silly unsupportable statements are coming form everywhere tonight.

[Isambard]

first of all is it even real quraan? and its an animal u stupid. oh and y would u have a quraan in ur house? finally found the truth. ( i hope)

Yes its a "real" Qur'an. Its in arabic and has an english translation right beside it.

I know he's an animal, but if my cat is indifferent to a Qur'an then it certainly isnt as protected as you claim.

I own 3 Qur'ans because I enjoy reading religious texts. I also own assorted other religious texts. Knowledge is a good thing

[truemuslim]

The only problem is why would I waist my time and money?
How do you know what will happen when I die?

How do you know I won't get 73 (One more than 72) virgins?

yep u afraid u big 2 year old BABY!!haha..oh and unlike ur religions MY RELIGION TELLS EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN??? how do you think the quraan know s how much water is in the sea, and people just know have learned how to find out, and just now have barely been able to touch the buttom of the ocean???? ^o):-\:D

[truemuslim]

u know juss to make u mad...i hate ur siggy..hahaha

[wilberhum]

and no all of those are STORIES OF SOME GUY OR GUYS WHO WANT TO BE REMEMBERED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

I don't think the guys wanted to be remembered. I think others just wanted to use them to gain power or something.

[truemuslim]

Yes its a "real" Qur'an. Its in arabic and has an english translation right beside it.

I know he's an animal, but if my cat is indifferent to a Qur'an then it certainly isnt as protected as you claim.

I own 3 Qur'ans because I enjoy reading religious texts. I also own assorted other religious texts. Knowledge is a good thing

allah protects who and what he wants..then punishes and reward who did good and did bad in the hereafter..oh and thats after we die, in case the person who made up her religion forgot to include that before he died. haha

[wilberhum]

maryam u r soooo write... they are just too stubborn..and ranma1/2 i think u should re read what i JUST SAID!! i said and if it is possible you will get the worste punishment of all..u know no time is left at the end!!!

Boy, you must be right. You threaten with every lasting punishment.
So you believe in a vengeful god. How nice.

[Qingu]

Truemuslim:

You must have missed my post. You claimed that all the miracles I posted were "just stories" that were "made up."

Do you believe that the flying donkey woman and Jews turning into monkeys were made up?

[truemuslim]

Truemuslim:

You must have missed my post. You claimed that all the miracles I posted were "just stories" that were "made up."

Do you believe that the flying donkey woman and Jews turning into monkeys were made up?

are you roman or german?? im guessing ur house is full of those naked half human half horse ppl that they used to make long ago..lol

oh and wilberhum, you probably dont even believe in hell..right? yeah anyway, at least the GOD who CREATED the QURAAN didnt forget to include the punishments!!:coolalien

[wilberhum]

ISLAM BECAUSE THERE IS A MILLION THINGS TO PROVE IT!!
There is zero proof.
and if you have an ebook about the quraan and you change the word to whatever you want or delete words then allah will punish you for it really severely.
And if you change a word of Moby Dick, Ishmael will punish you.
please just understand the truth.
Truth? Your truth. The truth is,we don't know the truth.

Maybe some day you will understand the difference between faith and fact.

[Qingu]

are you roman or german?? im guessing ur house is full of those naked half human half horse ppl that they used to make long ago..lol

So you think al-Buraq, the flying donkey woman, was made up?

Can you please answer this question? Your eternal soul may depend on it. :)

(And no, I'm not German or Roman. I do own a cat who is half-lion though.)

[truemuslim]

Maybe some day you will understand the difference between faith and fact.

yeah u dont know the truth cause u an athiest or watever...and i think..ahem...KNOW that you will be one of the people in the grave that allah will punish SOOoOoO much... with hooks...snakes...and ew...much more.... how could people (U) be so stubborn these days... oh and if your "god" created the earth and you and all, then why would your religion only come after people are already born?? already have other religions???and already livin the life?????????????????????:rolleyes: oh and u r just tryin to let ppl know ur age..haha

[truemuslim]

So you think al-Buraq, the flying donkey woman, was made up?

Can you please answer this question? Your eternal soul may depend on it. :)

(And no, I'm not German or Roman. I do own a cat who is half-lion though.)

lol..half lion cat..believable...everything else..only believable if its in the quraan!

[truemuslim]

You Know The Best Non-muslim Here That Is Really Polite And Non-racist And Understands Is Grace Seeker!

[Isambard]

You Know The Best Non-muslim Here That Is Really Polite And Non-racist And Understands Is Grace Seeker!

Who's being a racist?

[Qingu]

lol..half lion cat..believable...everything else..only believable if its in the quraan!

So you don't believe the hadith that describes Muhammad's flying donkey?

Also, who is being racist here? I've not seen a single comment about race. You do realize that Islam is a religion, not a race, right?

[truemuslim]

So you don't believe the hadith that describes Muhammad's flying donkey?

Also, who is being racist here? I've not seen a single comment about race. You do realize that Islam is a religion, not a race, right?

in racist i mean other people outside this board(shouldve explained better.lol)
and can you please show me the hadith about that?

omg where are all the muslims? sleeping?? if so wake up its almost fajr inthe yemen and saudish places

[truemuslim]

or if its in the quraan. thanks

[Qingu]

and can you please show me the hadith about that?

Bukhari's hadith describes the flying donkey creature that transports Muhammad to heaven:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Here's a picture of the beastie:

[truemuslim]

Bukhari's hadith describes the flying donkey creature that transports Muhammad to heaven:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Here's a picture of the beastie:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Miraj.jpg

ok, actually a flying horse lady didnt take muhammed (saw) to show him heavan.. it was a magic cloud with jibril, and its in the quraan

[wilberhum]

yeah u dont know the truth cause u an athiest or watever..
Right, I don't know what you think is "The Truth", I just believe your "Truth" is false.
.and i think..ahem...KNOW that you will be one of the people in the grave that allah will punish SOOoOoO much... with hooks...snakes...and ew...much more.... how could people (U) be so stubborn these days... oh and if your "god" created the earth and you and all, then why would your religion only come after people are already born?? already have other religions???and already livin the life?????????????????????:rolleyes:
Wow, you do believe in a god of hate, don't you.
loh and u r just tryin to let ppl know ur age..haha
My age is there for anyone that wants to know.

I'm not ashamed of my age or where I live. I feel no need to hide it like it is something to be ashamed of. What are you ashamed of?

[Qingu]

ok, actually a flying horse lady didnt take muhammed (saw) to show him heavan.. it was a magic cloud with jibril, and its in the quraan

So the Bukhari hadith is wrong?

[wilberhum]

lol..half lion cat..believable...everything else..only believable if its in the quraan!

Are dinosaurs in the Quran?

I guess you don't believe they existed either.

[truemuslim]

I'm not ashamed of my age or where I live. I feel no need to hide it like it is something to be ashamed of. What are you ashamed of?

i never said i was ashamed of anything. now, you don't believe the truth, and i dont believe your religion, or other religions. but i am just saying to look at the truth before its too late, you know how most people find the truth? by asking A god, (just a god, not jesus or allah or anyhthing) to let them know the truth, and allah grants them the truth if they really want to find the true truth. like one lady was begging god to let her find the truth, and then she went to read the bible, and when she opened the next page the whole bible turned to a quraan. subhannallah. :D

So the Bukhari hadith is wrong?

well sometimes they arent real or they are misunderstood and translated wrong. but mostly lies. so yea sorta

[truemuslim]

Are dinosaurs in the Quran?

I guess you don't believe they existed either.

doubt it, but yes i do believe they existed..sorta..not completely though but alot. but that doesnt even matter..its like saying they will search the whole earth to find out if a lady at the age of 25 who's name was Sarah Dubster ever existed...but dinosoars are juss a bit intresting.

[wilberhum]

You Know The Best Non-muslim Here That Is Really Polite And Non-racist And Understands Is Grace Seeker!

Grace Seeker is cool. He makes many good points. I think he is to be admired.

If you admire him, you should analyze what he says.

He always distinguishes between fact and faith.
He never says junk like "The bible is proof that .....".
He never makes claims that he can prove his faith is right and everyone else is wrong.

I pester you, not for what you believe, I pester you because you don't understand the difference between faith and fact and you expect people to accept your opinion as proof.

Surly you see the difference.

And how did the "Non-racist" come from?

[Qingu]

well sometimes they arent real or they are misunderstood and translated wrong. but mostly lies. so yea sorta

Well, I agree with you, and I appreciate your ability to think for yourself and draw your own conclusion. Most Muslims would consult the ulema before making such a statement about the hadith!

Now what about Jews turning into monkeys and invisible spirits possessing people? Do you believe that's all just stories?

[truemuslim]

Grace Seeker is cool. He makes many good points. I think he is to be admired.

If you admire him, you should analyze what he says.

He always distinguishes between fact and faith.
He never says junk like "The bible is proof that .....".
He never makes claims that he can prove his faith is right and everyone else is wrong.

I pester you, not for what you believe, I pester you because you don't understand the difference between faith and fact and you expect people to accept your opinion as proof.

Surly you see the difference.

oh no i dont say that im right and everyone else is wrong, i just try to show the obviousness of islam and other religions. thanks

[truemuslim]

Well, I agree with you, and I appreciate your ability to think for yourself and draw your own conclusion. Most Muslims would consult the ulema before making such a statement about the hadith!

Now what about Jews turning into monkeys and invisible spirits possessing people? Do you believe that's all just stories?

excuse me?? and i never heard of that. sorry

[Qingu]

excuse me?? and i never heard of that. sorry

I was complimenting you.

So you never heard of it .... do you believe it? Are you skeptical at all? Jews turning into monkeys and the existence of invisible spirits made of smokeless fire?

Do you believe this stuff or not?

P.S. I'm off to bed, so I won't respond for a day.

[wilberhum]

i never said i was ashamed of anything.
No you didn't. But people usually hide thing they are ashamed of. What are you hiding?
now, you don't believe the truth,
Oh, but I do believe in the truth. The problem is what you call "Truth", in my opinion is false.
and i dont believe your religion, or other religions.
That's fine. I would never ask you to. Why do you think I need to believe in yours?
but i am just saying to look at the truth before its too late,
I looked at your "Truth" and found it to be false.
you know how most people find the truth?
Everyone looks for the truth. But if there was "A Truth", why are there so many answers?
by asking A god, (just a god, not jesus or allah or anyhthing) to let them know the truth, and allah grants them the truth if they really want to find the true truth.
Again, why are there so many answers?
like one lady was begging god to let her find the truth, and then she went to read the bible, and when she opened the next page the whole bible turned to a quraan. subhannallah. :D
Do you have documentation on that story? Of course not, it is just a story. Even I can make up stories.

well sometimes they arent real or they are misunderstood and translated wrong. but mostly lies. so yea sorta
I think they are seldom true.

The truth is, we don't know the truth, we just believe.

[wilberhum]

doubt it, but yes i do believe they existed..sorta..not completely though but alot. but that doesnt even matter..its like saying they will search the whole earth to find out if a lady at the age of 25 who's name was Sarah Dubster ever existed...but dinosoars are juss a bit intresting.

Ah, but you said:

only believable if its in the quraan

Back peddling, are we? :D

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Do the Muslims on this board realize that non-Muslims do not accept the Quran?

yeah, silly us for thinking so.

You all seem to be operating under the assumption that if the Quran says something, everyone should believe it's true. Can you rationally defend this assumption? Or do you think repeating your claims over and over again makes them true?

and you seem to be under the assumption that becuase "i dont beleive in something, than it musnt exsist."

I won't accept? How about the vast majority of the world won't accept.

When 4 out of 5 people say "Your wrong". I don't assume that 80% of the people are stupid.

well, perhaps you should think again.

Well, I agree with you, and I appreciate your ability to think for yourself and draw your own conclusion. Most Muslims would consult the ulema before making such a statement about the hadith!
now, what would be the point in the ulema if we just turn around and interpret the hadith ourselves. whats the point of learning without a teacher? your effort in severly hampered.

[wilberhum]

well, perhaps you should think again.

How many times should I rethink it?

If you think I have made my choices without putting great thought into it, you would be totally wrong.

[DAWUD_adnan]

You are using a book who's info cannot be verified by any other sources (actually it conflicts with other sources) to cite history from it to prove your point.

Anyone else see a problem with this arguement?

yeah, I have a problem, NONE of the stuff i said was directly from the quran, and let me tell you something..buddy!(lol)



Well, listen, EVERY thing I said is authenticated by the FACT that his(saw) enemies, proved it to be true, read the letters he had written to the worlds kings and emperors.

his, is the most detailed biography ever written(fact), and he is the only man followed to every bit of his life.

Muhammad(saw) was the ONLY prophet to have been PROVEN to exist.

[Skavau]

yep and id rather not

Ignorance is a vice when intended.

Atheism is the disbelief in a God/s or the belief there is no God/s. It is a single metaphysical assertion.

no, athiest isnt knowledge

That is true. An Atheist is someone who does not believe in a God/s.

does it matter?? this life is all a test anyway! you will see..when its too late of course, islam was the first and last religion..and at least it makes sense.

Islam was the most recent religion? I'm sure Mormons, Scientologists and Bahai's will disagree with you.

oh and im guessing in ur religion u dont have a god, i mean, money just apears there, just like you, and ur house, and ur family... and the earth just magically appeared there, with all the trees and water. just like inventions nowadays, some human came and created the earth

I don't know anyone who holds that belief. I know groups of people who say that God just magically appeared there and magically created everything, but I don't know anyone who removes God from the equation.

You would do well to find out what people believe rather than guess.

age: WRONG..i think u just givin ur age... no offence... and NOWAY i dont want to know anything about these fake religions...

Then why are you on the Comparative Religion sub forum?

1. who is your "god"?
2. Do you have messengers?
3. who gave you what you have today?
4. what direction is your god facing right now?
5. what is your "god" doing right now?
and
6. what came before your religion, and when did your religion start?

1. I don't believe in a God.
2. I don't have any messengers.
3. My parents.
4. No direction.
5. Nothing.
6. I don't have a religion.

speechless ,eh?

Not really.

First, explain how out of all people Sulaiman (saw) was able to understand animals?
and how Muhammed (saw) was able to split the moon?
and how Yunus (saw) was able to lie in a whale for 40 days without suffering or dying?
and all the other miracles of prophets???

Easy. They didn't happen.

where is your proof for this?

You think Islam predates Christianity? Islam did not exist before the 7th century.

here go try this... Go to somewhere and buy a quran..then change the words in it... and copy it and give some to people... or take the quraan, step on it, rip it... I DARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! becuase it aint possible...and if you do..and it is possible...then you will have a really severe punishment once u dead.

This challenge makes no sense. Anyone can change the words in the Quran, copy it and give it away. It is a book with no power.

maryam u r soooo write... they are just too stubborn..and ranma1/2 i think u should re read what i JUST SAID!! i said and if it is possible you will get the worste punishment of all..u know no time is left at the end!!!

You realise that appeal to force is a logical fallacy, not a good argument?

Moreover - pot, meet kettle.

ISLAM BECAUSE THERE IS A MILLION THINGS TO PROVE IT!! and if you have an ebook about the quraan and you change the word to whatever you want or delete words then allah will punish you for it really severely. please just understand the truth.

Why should that mean anything to us? All you have done here is simply assert and provided no evidence.

first of all islam is the best religion, and the most reasonable religion, only racists and stupid people dont want to know the truth of islam. (U)

You are a bigot. You dismiss 80% of the global population as either racists or 'stupid people'. This is an unfortunate consequence of the arrogance of faith. It is disgusting and it is dangerous.

yea and anyway how many people do you know that have converted to christianity or athiest or hindu or agnostic??? and how many muslims do we know are converts and are really happier than before???? MILLIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Any evidence for the above measurement or not? There are lots of irreligious individuals in the world now for starters. Irreligious beliefs are the fastest growing positions in the world, especially in European nations.

yep u afraid u big 2 year old BABY!!haha..oh and unlike ur religions MY RELIGION TELLS EVERYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED AND WHAT WILL HAPPEN???

Your premise is false. Other religions say what will happen.

yeah u dont know the truth cause u an athiest or watever...and i think..ahem...KNOW that you will be one of the people in the grave that allah will punish SOOoOoO much... with hooks...snakes...and ew...much more.... how could people (U) be so stubborn these days...

The irony is delicious.

Do you look forward to the eternal torture of all non-believers, trueislam? Do you consider yourself a sadist?

oh no i dont say that im right and everyone else is wrong, i just try to show the obviousness of islam and other religions. thanks

You're not doing very well.

[Gator]

1. think??? lol...and also you answered all WRONG!! you guys are bad at answering

Hi, could you give me the right anwers?

oh no i dont say that im right and everyone else is wrong, i just try to show the obviousness of islam and other religions. thanks

I may be misreading the above, but didn't you state that I was "all WRONG!!!"

Thanks.

[truemuslim]

u know im sorry if i caused any harm or anything, now i am not going to talk about this anymore. k? k...just ask other muslims.

[Gator]

NYCmuslim,

Hope you got some feel of the differences and commonalities atheists have on the subject. It was a good question.

Thanks,
Gator.

[Chuck]

Bukhari's hadith describes the flying donkey creature that transports Muhammad to heaven:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamen...ml#005.058.227

Here's a picture of the beastie:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7f/Miraj.jpg

Just a correction, description of the beast in the hadith is not with woman head. Read the hadith you gave in the link. Usual description is simply a horse like creature with wings.

[truemuslim]

Just a correction, description of the beast in the hadith is not with woman head. Read the hadith you gave in the link. Usual description is simply a horse like creature with wings.

makes more sense, but didnt a cloud take muhammed (saw) to show him heavan and hell?

[Isambard]

yeah, I have a problem, NONE of the stuff i said was directly from the quran, and let me tell you something..buddy!(lol)



Well, listen, EVERY thing I said is authenticated by the FACT that his(saw) enemies, proved it to be true, read the letters he had written to the worlds kings and emperors.

his, is the most detailed biography ever written(fact), and he is the only man followed to every bit of his life.

Muhammad(saw) was the ONLY prophet to have been PROVEN to exist.

"Funny how atheists keep ignoring the fact that none of the prophets said they came from themselves but they came from Allah and that they had no worldy motivations( their lives show this). and why would you not follow a man who does not ask any reward from you or anyone?"

You said a plural. This is what I was addressing. What evidence outside of the Qur'an do you have that these prophets are the way the Qur'an said? (Or even existed)

[Chuck]

makes more sense, but didnt a cloud take muhammed (saw) to show him heavan and hell?

I'm just talking about burak. Not sure about whether burak was used for both Isra and Miraj or just Isra.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
message to all members: Stay on topic please. Don't make me mad, i'm on holidays and all I want to do is play zelda!

[truemuslim]

:sl:
message to all members: Stay on topic please. Don't make me mad, i'm on holidays and all I want to do is play zelda!

sorry sorry...I LOVE ZELDA...of course i dont have the game system for that nomore...i got xbox 360...and now i LOVE HALO 3!!!! especially live!!...sorry off toopic again..ok i wont do it again
:D

[barney]

Cripes! Lets get off the Buraq! We cant all fit on the thing!.

I've given my position on how I veiw the Prophets, but I thought I'd point out that the general veiw from Atheists and Agnostics will be different.

Atheists: Most Atheists are not Practicing Atheists. They just dont beleive theres a god and it dosnt worry them, and they dont think about it, so if you were to say to them "How do you veiw the prophets" they will usually reply "Mad" or "Mistaken". However they will not in the course of their lives devote any time to thinking about it.

Agnostics will generally look closer at the various prophets and their lives and actions and messages and make decisions based on this. This may result in " Theyre mad" "Theyre mistaken" or ""Their received a genuine message, but it's got twisted and changed by religio-politics"

[ranma1/2]

what is a practicing atheists?

[Isambard]

what is a practicing atheists?

Those that are certified

[ranma1/2]

certified? do i have to take a test now? dang it i suck at tests.

[barney]

Practicing is Ranma, Isambard and others here.
They beleive there is no God, and they learn about theology on this premise. They take a interest in their theology and evangelise it. they seek the truths and deeper understanding of the universe and our place in it.
I call these Atheists and Agnostics, practicing.

Regards

[Qingu]

:sl:
message to all members: Stay on topic please. Don't make me mad, i'm on holidays and all I want to do is play zelda!

Which Zelda?

The one where you blasted Muslims ruined the Fire Temple music? :)

[Qingu]

Practicing is Ranma, Isambard and others here.
They beleive there is no God, and they learn about theology on this premise. They take a interest in their theology and evangelise it. they seek the truths and deeper understanding of the universe and our place in it.
I call these Atheists and Agnostics, practicing.

Regards

This term doesn't sound right to me. I mean, I agree that there are atheists who are preachy about their beliefs and actively try to convince people that their religion is wrong. But this activity isn't practicing atheism, it's preaching rationalism or enlightenment morality/philosophy.

Atheism is the lack of a belief, it is not a positive belief or the basis of a worldview, nor is it something to actively "practice."

Also, you can be a "practicing Muslim" or a "practicing Christian" without trying to convert people.

[barney]

Must-stay-on-topic.

Zelda is nothing compared to Zero Wing!
All your base are belong to us!
http://allyourbase.planettribes.game...eo1_view.shtml

[truemuslim]

Must-stay-on-topic.

Zelda is nothing compared to Zero Wing!
All your base are belong to us!
http://allyourbase.planettribes.game...eo1_view.shtml

lol im cracking up!... oh and those graphics are HORRIBLE compared to halo3.... sorry again:D

[barney]

This term doesn't sound right to me. I mean, I agree that there are atheists who are preachy about their beliefs and actively try to convince people that their religion is wrong. But this activity isn't practicing atheism, it's preaching rationalism or enlightenment morality/philosophy.

Atheism is the lack of a belief, it is not a positive belief or the basis of a worldview, nor is it something to actively "practice."

Also, you can be a "practicing Muslim" or a "practicing Christian" without trying to convert people.

Quin, you are dissing my sect of Agnosticism here. :mad::mad::mad:

[Isambard]

Practicing is Ranma, Isambard and others here.
They beleive there is no God, and they learn about theology on this premise. They take a interest in their theology and evangelise it. they seek the truths and deeper understanding of the universe and our place in it.
I call these Atheists and Agnostics, practicing.

Regards

What theology? What evangelization?

I dont believe being an atheist is any objective sense better than being a theist, even compared to a fundie theist.

[ranma1/2]

This term doesn't sound right to me. I mean, I agree that there are atheists who are preachy about their beliefs and actively try to convince people that their religion is wrong. But this activity isn't practicing atheism, it's preaching rationalism or enlightenment morality/philosophy.

Atheism is the lack of a belief, it is not a positive belief or the basis of a worldview, nor is it something to actively "practice."

Also, you can be a "practicing Muslim" or a "practicing Christian" without trying to convert people.

i agree.

where is this certification test im supposed to take though?

[Resigned]

This term doesn't sound right to me. I mean, I agree that there are atheists who are preachy about their beliefs and actively try to convince people that their religion is wrong. But this activity isn't practicing atheism, it's preaching rationalism or enlightenment morality/philosophy.

Atheism is the lack of a belief, it is not a positive belief or the basis of a worldview, nor is it something to actively "practice."

Also, you can be a "practicing Muslim" or a "practicing Christian" without trying to convert people.

That was a darn good post. I would add further that Atheism is not a belief in the sense that there are no practices, customs or rituals. For instance, someone could not have ever heard of a theistic model. They are atheist by definition but have no active belief.

There are two worldviews: the one that establishes reality as all encompassing and has no need for the supernatural realm. This is the "rational" (within the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.

The other view, the theistic view, asserts that reality requires a supernatural causation; thus, the supernatural --and less diplomatic sounding-- "irrational" (outside the bounds of reason exclusively) worldview.

And please note these conventions have nothing to do with the common ideas that a rational person is a well thought out person and an irrational one is a chaotic maniac. These are philosophical conventions, nothing more.

Both the theist and the materialist require some level or faith or trust (respectively) in order to believe their worldviews are reality. The theist's theological faith is an acceptance of the existence of a divine being who via supernatural means establishes all of reality including the laws of nature and logic which allow for the existence of knowledge. The materialist relies on a priori logic that states that reality is self-caused, and empirical events allow for the existence of knowledge. For myself, I don't conceive of my atheism as a belief as much as I conceive it as a conclusion based on the asserted models out there and the lack of evidence to support those assertions. As an example, one can't really consider oneself as having the "belief that Santa doesn't exist". It's just a fact-- Santa doesn't exist, and only those who would assert he does are required to support the claim with evidence.

Until then, Gods, Demons, Jinn, etc., remain an unsupported, untested and unproved assertion that even those who embrace it admit cannot really be explained or defended.

[Qurratul Ayn]

Peace

WOW!!! I didn't know many Atheists believed that Muhammad (PBUH) or Jesus existed.

But as long as there's evidence I guess many people will believe even though they are not of the religion despite seeing the other Prophets as myths and such.

Good question Brother NYCmuslim for the Atheists

Peace to all

[snakelegs]

i don't think anyone doubts that muhammad existed. the other prophets are less certain.

[barney]

Jo Smith, David Koresh,Ron Hubbard.They all existed.

Michael Travesser is alive and well and underwent his bodily transformation on the 17th of October witnessed by his diciples and on TV across america and britain. I could, if i wished to, fly over to new mexico right now and see him.

Right now Today, the 15th of December is the end of dividing of time, times and time.
So as my last post ever before the world end's ..I'll just say, nice chatting with you lot, and have a nice paradise or a happy hell, dependent on your destination.
http://www.answers.com/topic/michael-travesser

[Resigned]

Peace

WOW!!! I didn't know many Atheists believed that Muhammad (PBUH) or Jesus existed.

But as long as there's evidence I guess many people will believe even though they are not of the religion despite seeing the other Prophets as myths and such.

Good question Brother NYCmuslim for the Atheists

Peace to all

I think there’s much less debate about whether Mohammed, Jesus or various other historical characters existed versus whether or not these people actually did receive some divine message. That’s the heart of the matter: theism has an extraordinary standard within its own assertions. If we are somehow wrong about a piece of writing penned by a mere mortal, there really isn't any significant impact. A naturally occurring event or the minutiae of events surrounding a person's existence is fairly low yield in outcome if we're completely wrong. But theism makes claims of an eternal nature -- issues that affect our existence during infinity Does that not raise the stakes considerably when it’s claimed that a “prophet” actually had a sit-down with god(s)?

The second aspect of this argumentation follows under the premise that if the only identifiable standard by which we assess the viability of a claim that a man is deemed a “prophet” is the “because it says so in a book”, claim, which, BTW does not even support the contention of an ordinary claim, (i.e., it's not extraordinary that men existed -- since we know men have long existed, and it's not odd that these men might have been charismatic figures since we know people-- including men—have been the recipients of idol worship), then how can lesser standards support a far more extraordinary claim, like there exists a supernatural realm?

[barney]

viability of a claim that a man is deemed a “prophet” is the “because it says so in a book”, ?

You are not taking into account here that the book is the word of God, and God himself confirms the prophethood of the prophets.

Ha! Get round THAT!

[Resigned]

You are not taking into account here that the book is the word of God, and God himself confirms the prophethood of the prophets.

Ha! Get round THAT!

Ah – I have my head ‘round this, now. I must concede the argument:



Lights up slowly. Music softly, and then building.


Striding to the middle of the room.


Stepping upon the SoapBox of Everlasting Clarity.


loud clear voice:


Yes, you are right. I realize what you say is correct. Thank you for helping me understand. I appreciate it.


Stepping off Soapbox.


Purposeful stride to wings, Exuent.


Music down. Lights down, and out.


Curtain.

[Chuck]

viability of a claim that a man is deemed a “prophet” is the “because it says so in a book”, ?

I'll put it this way, if a books says that it is written and signed by shakespeare and somebody inspects that book and comes to believe that it is written. Then a skeptic comes and says you believe that because the book says that. Anyone can see the fault in the skeptics argument here, no?

[Qingu]

I'll put it this way, if a books says that it is written and signed by shakespeare and somebody inspects that book and comes to believe that it is written. Then a skeptic comes and says you believe that because the book says that. Anyone can see the fault in the skeptics argument here, no?

So you believe the Mahabharata was dictated by the demigod Vyasa and written by the elephant-headed god Ganesha?

Why not?

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I'll put it this way, if a books says that it is written and signed by shakespeare and somebody inspects that book and comes to believe that it is written. Then a skeptic comes and says you believe that because the book says that. Anyone can see the fault in the skeptics argument here, no?

No textual scholar would definitively ascribe authorship of an old text on such flimsy evidence. All available contemporary evidence would have to be assessed, and as such evidence is often missing, many texts can only be given probable authorship.

And, incidentally, there is only one known (incomplete) manuscript of one of Shakespeare's plays believed to be in his hand, and even that is uncertain. Six of his signatures survive on unrelated documents.

Peace

[barney]

There is also the problem that Shakespeare was real. God is hypothetical.

If there was a ownership lawsuit on the quran, then a jury looking at the evidence would say Mohammed had spoken the words and it was he that had asked them to be enscribed on the wood and the bone.

A Third party that you cant see, hear, touch, smell, or in any way communicate with is not acceptable as a legitimate author in worldly terms. Using the Shakespear arguement is a bit of a loss, as Shakespear was a man you could do all of the above with.

[Chuck]

So you believe the Mahabharata was dictated by the demigod Vyasa and written by the elephant-headed god Ganesha?

Nope. But I'm not superficial skeptic either. I don't assume that they believe just because the book says so.

No textual scholar would definitively ascribe authorship of an old text on such flimsy evidence.

And what flimsy evidence that be?

There is also the problem that Shakespeare was real. God is hypothetical.

If there was a ownership lawsuit on the quran, then a jury looking at the evidence would say Mohammed had spoken the words and it was he that had asked them to be enscribed on the wood and the bone.

A Third party that you cant see, hear, touch, smell, or in any way communicate with is not acceptable as a legitimate author in worldly terms. Using the Shakespear arguement is a bit of a loss, as Shakespear was a man you could do all of the above with.

It was an example to show faulty of the argument "because just the book says so". I doubt it most believe in God or prophet just because a book says so. It is a complex process may include life experiences, assessing history, evaluating truthfulness of the message, expected value, etc... a person may not do this methodologically or consider every possible factor, but is not as simple as some people here making it out to be.

If there was a ownership lawsuit on the quran, then a jury looking at the evidence would say Mohammed had spoken the words and it was he that had asked them to be enscribed on the wood and the bone.

I doubt it it would be that simple. There is claim the they come from God and Mohammed is not the actual author, but just a transmitter. Judge or jury will try to assess that and look for the evidence if that is true or not. Depending on the evidence and person judge or jury would come to conclusion what they believe is the correct one. Complex cases doesn't have a straightforward answer and their outcome is difficult to predict.

Using the Shakespear arguement is a bit of a loss, as Shakespear was a man you could do all of the above with.

What difference does that make really? You take out the Shakespeare it still doesn't change a thing, point remains the same. A person will try to judge whether it belongs to the stated author or not. He/she know about attributes or pattern it will try to analyze those pattern (writing sytle if comparison is available, testable factors directly or indirectly, attributes, etc...)

[barney]

OK, im not making myself clear.
Shakespeare had a Publisher and a contract. So it's a case of provable historical fact. The court would demand the papers, see them and case closed.

The Quran case would hear the evidence, ask God to attend the court to defend the allagations, he wouldnt turn up and so would be in contempt of court and case dismissed.

There is evidence provided by quran itself and hadith that Mohammed asked the scribes to record it. And in the lack of another author that can be actually seen, heard or exist on this plane...It would be thrown out.

[Qingu]

Nope. But I'm not superficial skeptic either. I don't assume that they believe just because the book says so.

I'm not sure what you mean. Wasn't the claim that if the text of a book claims to have been written by a certain author then we shouldn't doubt its authorship?

If not, then why don't you believe the Mahabharata was written by Vyasa and dictated by Ganesha? You apparently have no trouble believing that the Quran was written by Muhammad who was dictating the inner thoughts of Allah. What makes you more certain about the one book?

[Isambard]

Its an interesting view, needs backing up with something though.

I would say that Christianity spreading it's missionarys into Africa qualifys as an example. Christianity isnt however a Tribal God...or at least it outgrew that! Thread due probabely for deletion anyway. Is talk about tribal Gods banned on LI? Is that why theyre being deleted?

Thats not why is was deleted. It was deleted cause the OP asserted that 'negros' are mentally inferior to other races and are thus easily brainwashed.

Also something about arabs having some sort of conspiracy to take over the minds of others.

The OP was full of crap essentially.:blind:

[snakelegs]

he has also tampered with surah al-fatiha. (the first book of the qur'an)

[barney]

The OP was full of crap essentially.:blind:

I thought that was standard operating proceedure! :D:D:D

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
Time out folks.
I may re-open the thread later on. But only if you are nice.

:D