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Gator
11-26-2007, 07:12 PM
A British primary school teacher in Sudan is facing 40 lashes and up to six months in prison after allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear after the prophet Mohammed.


Link to full story -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wsudan226.xml

Your reaction?
Reply

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Cognescenti
11-26-2007, 09:24 PM
Good thing it wasn't a Porky Pig likeness. Then she would really be in a spot of trouble.

Doesn't one have to be a believer to blaspheme? Seems to me that was part of the problem with Rushdie...he unreverted.
Reply

'Abd al-Baari
11-26-2007, 09:30 PM
:sl:

I personally think that its kind of extreme :/

I mean 'Muhammad' is a very popular name, Alhamdulillah, and probaly more so in muslim countries like Sudan so if a class of 7 year olds decide to call their teddy Muhammad, although it might be wrong, its not her fault is it:?
Reply

Fishman
11-26-2007, 09:32 PM
:sl:
Isn't Muhammad also a name for ordinary people? Maybe the kids just liked that name, I doubt some young Muslim primary school kids intended it as blasphemy. It seems a bit ridiculous to whip somebody over this...
:w:
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Whatsthepoint
11-26-2007, 09:33 PM
Teddy bears usually have eyes and as I recall portraying eyes is haraam. Connecting the prophet with haraam things is also haraam, I guess.
Reply

aadil77
11-26-2007, 09:38 PM
:sl:

I just saw this on the news and found it stupidly funny:zip:, she could either get 6 months in prison or 40 lashes, which is a bit harsh
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Cognescenti
11-26-2007, 09:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aadil77
:sl:

I just saw this on the news and found it stupidly funny:zip:, she could either get 6 months in prison or 40 lashes, which is a bit harsh
It is funny in a oddly anachronistic and archaic way....sort of like someone using cow dung and mud for hair gel.
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chosen
11-26-2007, 10:58 PM
fine way to promote foreign teachers going to islamic countries to teach...COME TO OUR COUNTRY AND WE WILL WHIP YOU..watch how many teachers are lost over this..this poor women.
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sabah
11-26-2007, 11:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
fine way to promote foreign teachers going to islamic countries to teach...COME TO OUR COUNTRY AND WE WILL WHIP YOU..watch how many teachers are lost over this..this poor women.
lol, this is crazy im sure its an innocent mistake. I hope the women is released with no charge, its crazy to think she should be punished. This will be just another example for some haters to percieve islam as an immoral religion.:heated:
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Chechnya
11-27-2007, 09:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sabah
lol, this is crazy im sure its an innocent mistake. I hope the women is released with no charge, its crazy to think she should be punished. This will be just another example for some haters to percieve islam as an immoral religion.:heated:
Sudan isnt an islamic state so its not surprising they come out with some nonsense like this
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nadia85
11-27-2007, 09:30 AM
I saw it on the news last nite and think there making a big deal out of it I dont think the teacher is in the wrong or meant to cause offence
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 02:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Sudan isnt an islamic state so its not surprising they come out with some nonsense like this
hmmm... not an islamic state, is that because there isnt a radical form of islam trying to fight the evil kuffar there? Last time I checked Sudan was 70% Muslim
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Woodrow
11-27-2007, 03:08 PM
Like with most things we can only see the side of the issue that is presented to us.

Based on the side shown to us. This action is very extreme and uncalled for. There is no indication that when the "Teddy" was named Muhammad that it was meant to be in reference to the Prophet(PBUH).

If an error was made, it seems the best choice is to correct the error with the most gentle correction feasible. This seems to be an extreme and uncalled for.

I believe the people need to ask themselves: "What would Muhammad(PBUH) have done?"

That is my opinion and is based only upon what I can see. Astragfirullah
Reply

chosen
11-27-2007, 03:18 PM
sudan not a muslim country....this women is being whipped by the authorities as a form of punishment for insulting the islamic prophet..much like the rape victim in saudi arabia geeting 200 lashes for having the nerve to leave her house and associate with someone not related to her...two different "muslim" men I have spoken to told me she asked to be raped and if she would have stayed home like a muslim women should she would have never been raped..but this is comming from two muslim men talking to me, an unrelated women..lol double standards abound..
Reply

Jayda
11-27-2007, 03:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
A British primary school teacher in Sudan is facing 40 lashes and up to six months in prison after allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear after the prophet Mohammed.


Link to full story -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wsudan226.xml

Your reaction?
hola

obviously this is horrible, unchivalrous and quite strange. children should be allowed to play with safe wholesome toys like teddy bears, rather than barbie dolls and computer games and if they wish to name their teddy bears after someone or something that is dear to them then it is all the better. it is important to remember that Sudan is a very economically depressed country, with education and stability problems and the government is oppressive. sometimes the news runs articles like these to provoke discussion or bring larger issues (like the state of Sudan) to our attention. i fear that this is not always the result and that people will use these reports to substantiate wild accusations against groups (africans, muslims or the sudanese themselves) that were not the intended targets.

que Dios te bendiga
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chosen
11-27-2007, 04:15 PM
the media runs stories like these to what????? The cariest part of all this is not what is happenning to this one women..the scariest most unjust part of this is the fact that this is the one case the media has hilighted..the lord only knows the level of abuses perpetrated on innocent people for doing harmless innocent things such as this...If I were a teacher in any country that has even one islamic extremist in its goverment I would be packing my bags right now....
Reply

Gator
11-27-2007, 04:53 PM
Thanks for the replies. They were along the lines i expected that it is a major overreaction.

My feeling is that it was too and that cooler heads should prevail. I see it as the reaction from a few within the group of parents (I wonder if it was the parents of the 3 kids that didn't vote for the name) and in the government.

My worry is that now its become a political case and I wonder if the people who just want this to be over handle it. Will they get pressure for not being Islamic if nothing is done and how do they deflect that?

Thanks.
Reply

The Ruler
11-27-2007, 05:17 PM
:sl:

format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
the media runs stories like these to what????? The cariest part of all this is not what is happenning to this one women..the scariest most unjust part of this is the fact that this is the one case the media has hilighted..the lord only knows the level of abuses perpetrated on innocent people for doing harmless innocent things such as this...If I were a teacher in any country that has even one islamic extremist in its goverment I would be packing my bags right now....
You annoy me. *Waits for the tongue lash*.

format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
hmmm... not an islamic state, is that because there isnt a radical form of islam trying to fight the evil kuffar there?
Since there isn't a radical form of Islam there "fighting the evil kuffar". I wonder who's fighting the 'Briton' there.

Geee. I think I dislike the Sudanese form of judgement.

:w:
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 05:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chechnya
Sudan isnt an islamic state so its not surprising they come out with some nonsense like this
Universal excuse number 2-A.

Is there now or has there ever been an Islamic state?
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- Qatada -
11-27-2007, 05:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Universal excuse number 2-A.

Is there now or has there ever been an Islamic state?


This has been explained by the Messenger of Allaah, peace be upon him:

"The Prophethood will last among you for as long as Allah (God) wills, then Allah would take it away. Then it will be (followed by) a Khilafah [caliphate] Rashida (rightly guided) according to the ways of the Prophethood. It will remain for as long as Allah wills, then Allah would take it away. Afterwards there will be a hereditary leadership which will remain for as long as Allah wills, then He will lift it if He wishes. Afterwards, there will be biting oppression, and it will last for as long as Allah wishes, then He will lift it if He wishes. Then there will be a Khilafah Rashida according to the ways of the Prophethood," then he kept silent.

[recorded in Musnad Imam Ahmad (v/273)]


We're under the underlined stage, and all the events before it have occured in our islamic history. Inshaa'Allaah the rest of the prophecy will soon come into effect.


According to the hadith, the prophet (peace be upon him) will be followed by rightly guided caliphs and after those caliphs (Abu Baker, Omar, Uthman and Ali) will come hereditary leadership (the other Caliphs from the Umayyad to the Uthmani) and after that will come tyrannical rule (today) and after that will come a rightly guided caliphs yet again God willing.
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- Qatada -
11-27-2007, 05:57 PM
I just want to quote brother Ansar:


Shaykh Muhammad Al-Khudayri cites some important ahadith on the attitude of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:
A Jewish man once greeted the Prophet (peace be upon him) by saying: “Death be upon you.” He used the Arabic word ‘sâm’, meaning ‘death’, in a parody of the Islamic greeting for peace which is the word ‘salâm’.

Though the Prophet (peace be upon him) knew exactly what the man had said, he paid it no heed and gently replied: “And upon you.” He did so without repeating the misused word “sâm” and behaved as if he had not noticed it.

However, Aishah, who had also heard what the man really said, immediately retorted: “And death be upon you and a curse as well!”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Take it easy, A?’ishah. Allah loves kindness in everything.” In another narration of the story, it is related that he also said: “Beware of coarseness and indecency.”

A?ishah complained to the Prophet (peace be upon him) saying: “Didn’t you hear what they said?”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied: “Did you not hear my reply? I responded to their offensive supplication. My supplication will be answered by Allah while their supplication against me will not be answered.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî and Sahîh Muslim]


Some of the Companions once asked the Prophet (peace be upon him) to pray to Allah to invoke His curse upon the pagans. He replied: “I was not sent to curse people but as a blessing. [Sahîh Muslim]

Also, the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “It is not fitting for a sincere lover of truth to invoke curses.”
[Sahîh Muslim]

And he said: “A believer should not invoke curses.” [Sunan al-Tirmidhî with authentic line of transmission]

I think I answered this previously as well when I said, The conclusion was that Prophet Muhammad pbuh never allowed anyone to be killed for personal insults - he was the most forgiving to the extent that he forgave one who tried to poison him, and he forgave those who persecuted his followers and drove him out of his home..

If a person is innocent, and didn't do something wrong purposely - they are not held accountable, and therefore do not receive a punishment. This is well known in our religious texts. The whole issue is taken out of proportion totally, and i'm sure its to give a bad message of Islam. And Allah knows best.
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root
11-27-2007, 06:02 PM
If a person is innocent, and didn't do something wrong purposely - they are not held accountable, and therefore do not receive a punishment. This is well known in our religious texts. The whole issue is taken out of proportion totally, and i'm sure its to give a bad message of Islam. And Allah knows best.
I agree, the teacher who complained that it insulted Islam, the Police who arrested the teacher and closed the school down until the new year, and the Police who will now interview the little girl who owned the teddy bear. They all took it out of proportion, totally


It's a farce just like when they lashed a christian girl for nor wearing the Hijab back in 2003.

Islamic moderation 0 Islamaphobes 1.
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 06:20 PM
This does bring up an interesting point. The Teddy bear is a second innocent victim here, but what of the many millions of men named Muhammed? Surely, there are no small number who insult the prophet with un-Islamic behavior like vacationing in Lebanon or Cairo and having a fews nips of brandy or a prostitute or two.

Shouldn't they be flogged too?
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chosen
11-27-2007, 06:21 PM
bottom line is that this punishment was givien because she insulted the prophet...for you to say this isnt a radical form of islam is ridiculas..apparently the justice, or in this case, the unjustice system..in the sudan allows for such punishments based on their belief in islam..this IS THE DEFINATION OF RADICAL ISLAM..therefore this punishment in and of itself proves the there is radical islam alive and well in the goverment of the sudan....instead of saying I annoy you..why dont you start a letter writing campaing directed at the goverment of sudan for allowing this..all of the muslims on this board seem to think this is an unfair harsh punishment..so raise your voices..
Reply

- Qatada -
11-27-2007, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti

Shouldn't they be flogged too?

The issue at hand is whether this was even a crime or not, especially since she didn't intend it as something insulting and made a mistake.


I strongly urge you to check these links out:

Criminal Law

Discover Islam Project


I think i even heard on the news that they would probably release her anyway, so yeah.



Hope you benefit from them links. :)



Regards.
Reply

wilberhum
11-27-2007, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
bottom line is that this punishment was givien because she insulted the prophet...for you to say this isnt a radical form of islam is ridiculas..apparently the justice, or in this case, the unjustice system..in the sudan allows for such punishments based on their belief in islam..this IS THE DEFINATION OF RADICAL ISLAM..therefore this punishment in and of itself proves the there is radical islam alive and well in the goverment of the sudan....instead of saying I annoy you..why dont you start a letter writing campaing directed at the goverment of sudan for allowing this..all of the muslims on this board seem to think this is an unfair harsh punishment..so raise your voices..
Is it "Radical Islam" or "Intolerant Muslims"?

As a non-believer, I often fine it difficult to figure out which it is.
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 06:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
The issue at hand is whether this was even a crime or not, especially since she didn't intend it as something insulting and made a mistake.


I strongly urge you to check these links out:

Criminal Law

Discover Islam Project


I think i even heard on the news that they would probably release her anyway, so yeah.



Hope you benefit from them links. :)



Regards.
Thank you sir for your thoughtful answer. I will check that out.
Reply

~Taalibah~
11-27-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
A British primary school teacher in Sudan is facing 40 lashes and up to six months in prison after allowing her pupils to name a teddy bear after the prophet Mohammed.


Link to full story -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../wsudan226.xml

Your reaction?
I've not read through the whole thread but i would think a 7 year old kid should be taught that it is not correct to name a moorat (haraam/with eyes) object after The Prophet of Allah Ta'aala as well as it is not allowed in the first place.
Allah knows best.
Reply

chosen
11-27-2007, 06:49 PM
even if they do let her go without the punishment...they will only be doing it to save face in the eyes of a shocked world, that can not believe this punishment was givin to begin with.....if this womens story never leaked to the media the punishment would have gone on as planned.what does this say to the world..
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- Qatada -
11-27-2007, 06:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
even if they do let her go without the punishment...they will only be doing it to save face in the eyes of a shocked world, that can not believe this punishment was givin to begin with.....if this womens story never leaked to the media the punishment would have gone on as planned.what does this say to the world..

That's not the case at all, they may have released her anyway but playing the 'but' or 'what if' game won't get us nowhere. We hope she will be released soon without any harm.
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chosen
11-27-2007, 07:01 PM
Thats not the sace at all.."they may have realeased her anyway"....

maybe maybe not...but this should not even be a question..she should have never been charged..there was no crime..i feel for the children she teaches..what does this teach them..
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 07:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
..i feel for the children she teaches..what does this teach them..
It teaches them to tell mommy and daddy to get the heck out of Sudan ASAP.
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Joe98
11-28-2007, 12:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen;
....what does this teach them..

The muslims in Sudan don't understand Islam. And therefore they should not be allowed to run the place as the will give Islam a bad name.
-
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Bittersteel
11-28-2007, 04:06 PM
Last time I checked Sudan was 70% Muslim
Turkey got Muslims which compromise more than 90% of the population.

does Sudan have Islamic laws in force or does it have mixed laws(some Islamic some from the Brits)?

I checked wiki:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan#Politics

anyways we are talking about this coming verdict not about Sudan being Islamic or not.my point of view:irrational .this is one of the things I dislike(or rather hate) about Muslims;they make the biggest deals out of the smallest things and do nothing to fix major issues.
I feel sorry for the woman though;it's really unfortunate.
Insulting the Prophet pbuh is a major crime in an Islamic country and can sometimes carry the death penalty;however the woman here really didn't insult the Prophet pbuh;besides Mohammad is the most common name in the world(well learned it from a Trivia section a mag lol).

The muslims in Sudan don't understand Islam. And therefore they should not be allowed to run the place as the will give Islam a bad name.
we are talking about Sudan.Isn't still torn by war or something?what can you expect from the judiciary of such a country?
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czgibson
11-28-2007, 04:15 PM
Greetings,

It's a ludicrous decision, of course. I gather that the name was the children's choice, not the teacher's. She tried to persuade them to give it another name, but they wouldn't budge. Pesky kids!

Unfortunately, this is just another in a long line of crazy legal decisions that continue to give fuel to the Islamophobes.

Peace
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Gator
11-28-2007, 05:06 PM
Alright, here's a reaction from a group of muslim clerics in Sudan. Don't know if this group is really as influential the article claims, but its in my opinion, a little nuts.

"But Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.

Northern Sudan's legal system is based on Islam's Sharia law, which harshly punishes blasphemy against the Prophet Muhammad. Any depiction of the prophet is forbidden in Islam, for fear it would provoke idolatry. Caricatures of Muhammad in some European media last year sparked riots in several Muslim countries.

The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.

"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.

"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.

The clerics said the "plot" was exemplified "in the writings of renegade Salman Rushdie and the blasphemous caricatures of Prophet Muhammad." Rushdie has received multiple death threats from hardline Muslims for publishing a novel questioning Muhammad's morals.

Sudan's Assembly of Ulemas is a semiofficial body of top preachers, clerics and scholars of Islam. It is generally viewed as a moderate body that has the ear of the Sudanese government."

If true, these guys are just a wee bit paranoid.

Its taken from this updated story - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/sudan_bri...02xpEJCpcDW7oF
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czgibson
11-28-2007, 05:24 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
Sudan's Assembly of Ulemas is a semiofficial body of top preachers, clerics and scholars of Islam. It is generally viewed as a moderate body that has the ear of the Sudanese government."
These are the guys at the top of the intellectual food chain? Good grief! They've clearly got nothing better to do all day than sit around fostering their victim complex.

Peace
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Cognescenti
11-28-2007, 06:00 PM
It is a classic Catch 22. We are told their is a Quranic order that the "non-believer" is to be accepted in an Isalmic land (as long as he pays his taxes :D)...unless...wait for it....the "non-believer" (aka, Kuffar, Kuffar swine, Kuffar dog, infidel etc etc) does something, perhaps even out of ignorance, that reveals him to be a "non-believer".

Then he is in deep doodoo.
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Cognescenti
11-28-2007, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
...
If true, these guys are just a wee bit paranoid.

Its taken from this updated story - http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/sudan_bri...02xpEJCpcDW7oF

I see it as a sign of progress. Nowhere is the collapse of the WTC or Israeli Secret Service mentioned.
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- Qatada -
11-28-2007, 06:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
It is a classic Catch 22. We are told their is a Quranic order that the "non-believer" is to be accepted in an Isalmic land (as long as he pays his taxes :D)...unless...wait for it....the "non-believer" does something, perhaps even out of ignorance, that reveals him to be a "non-believer".

Then he is in deep doodoo.

About the non muslim in an Islamic state;

Sahih Bukhary:

Volumn 009, Book 083, Hadith Number 049.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Amr : The Prophet said,

"Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)."

And a Quote what is mentioned in Islamqa in one of the Fatwa:

"The non muslims who are protected by sharee’ah (laws of islam) are of three types:

1 – Al-dhimmi. This is one with whom we have a contract or treaty of al-dhimmah (i.e., one who lives in a Muslim state)

2 – Al-mu’aahad. This is one with whose people we have a peace treaty.

3– Al-musta’man. This is one who has entered the Muslim land and has been guaranteed safety, such as those who come to do business, to work, to visit relatives, and so on."

The rest of your statement is false.

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

[Qur'an 60: 8]

I think the thread might be closed soon if it heats up, since it's not really getting anywhere except saying things about Islam which aren't even true.
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wilberhum
11-28-2007, 06:25 PM
But Sudan is not an Islamic state.
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- Qatada -
11-28-2007, 06:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
But Sudan is not an Islamic state.

Then don't blame Islam, simple as.
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Trumble
11-28-2007, 06:40 PM
"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.
The huge irony, of course, is that their own position does far more to weaken Islam, at least in the eyes of non-muslims, than any "intense media campaign" ever could. In relation to this particular incident it also shows a degree of paranoia and, frankly, idiocy that is simply breathtaking. I only hope the Sudanese people don't take the views of these people seriously on anything, least of all religion.
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wilberhum
11-28-2007, 06:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Then don't blame Islam, simple as.
I don't blame Islam, I blame Muslims.
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Gator
11-28-2007, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Then don't blame Islam, simple as.
Just to clarify, I have not and don't blame the entirety of Islam for this. I'm just interested in the story to see why what is happening is happening and why it doesn't follow islam.

One thing I've learned on this board is the very different interpretations of Islam and I think the reactions from this board are informative in their actual references to Islamic texts (yours specifically was good) and show how Islam can be followed by in a good way rather than what I would consider misguided by social influences or overly conservative (re the clerics in Sudan).

Thanks.
Reply

MTAFFI
11-28-2007, 08:35 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071128/...ritish_teacher

Briton charged in religious hatred case
By ALFRED de MONTESQUIOU, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 27 minutes ago


KHARTOUM, Sudan - Sudan charged a British teacher Wednesday with inciting religious hatred after she allowed her students to name a teddy bear Muhammad, an offense that could subject her to 40 lashes, the Justice Ministry said.

The charge against Gillian Gibbons was sure to heighten tensions between Sudan and Britain. In London, Foreign Secretary David Miliband urgently summoned the Sudanese ambassador to discuss the case, the British government said.

Gibbons, 54, was arrested Sunday after some of her pupils' parents complained, accusing her of naming the bear after Islam's prophet. Muhammad is a common name among Muslim men, but giving the prophet's name to an animal would be seen as insulting by many Muslims.

Prosecutor General Salah Eddin Abu Zaid said Gibbons was charged under article 125 of the Sudanese legal code and her case would be referred to court Thursday.

If convicted, she faces up to 40 lashes, six months and prison and a fine, said Abdul Daem Zumrawi, the Justice Ministry's undersecretary.

"What will be applied is (at) the discretionary power of the judge to issue the verdict," he was quoted as saying by the official Sudanese News Agency.

The meeting between Miliband and Ambassador Omer Mohammed Ahmed Siddig would take place as soon as possible, according to the British Foreign Office.

"We are surprised and disappointed by this development and the Foreign Secretary will summon as a matter of urgency the Sudanese ambassador to discuss the matter further," said Michael Ellam, a spokesman for Prime Minister Gordon Brown's office.

Miliband would ask the "for the rationale behind the charges and a sense of what the next steps might be" amid an escalating diplomatic dispute in the case, he said.

"We will consider our response in the light of that," Ellam said.

The Gibbons family declined to speak with The Associated Press, saying the British government had advised them not to comment to the media.

In Khartoum, the British Embassy said diplomats had been allowed to visit Gibbons on Wednesday. "She said she was being well-treated and that she was OK," said embassy spokesman Omar Daair.

Gibbons was teaching her pupils, who are around age 7, about animals and asked one of them to bring in her teddy bear, said Robert Boulos, a spokesman for Unity High School in Khartoum. She asked the students to pick names for it and they proposed Abdullah, Hassan and Muhammad, and in September, the pupils voted to name it Muhammad, he said.

Each child was allowed to take the bear home on weekends and write a diary about what they did with it. The diary entries were collected in a book with the bear's picture on the cover, labeled, "My Name is Muhammad," he said. The bear itself was never labeled with the name, he added.

The Unity High School, a private English-language school with elementary to high school levels, was founded by Christian groups, but 90 percent of its students are Muslim, mostly from upper-class Sudanese families.

Several Sudanese newspapers ran a statement Tuesday reportedly from the school, saying the administration "offers an official apology to the students and their families and all Muslims for what came from an individual initiative." It said Gibbons had been "removed from her work at the school."

The Sudanese Foreign Ministry on Tuesday played down the significance of the case, calling it "isolated despite our condemnation and rejection of it."

Ministry spokesman Ali al-Sadeq said it was an incidence of a "teacher's misconduct against the Islamic faith" but noted the school's apology.

The statement from the school in newspapers called it a "misunderstanding." It underlined the school's "deep respect for the heavenly religions" and for the "beliefs of Muslims and their rituals."

Although Khartoum officials played down the case and said it was an isolated incident, Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.

Northern Sudan's legal system is based on Islam's Sharia law, which harshly punishes blasphemy. Any depiction of the prophet is forbidden in Islam, for fear it would provoke idolatry. Caricatures of Muhammad in some European media last year sparked riots in several Muslim countries.

The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.

"What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.

"It is part of the campaign of the so-called war against terrorism and the intense media campaign against Islam," they said.

Although an earlier report had suggested that only one parent had complained, the clergy statement Wednesday said that several had complained.

There were widespread calls in Britain for Gibbons' release. The Muslim Council of Britain urged the Sudanese government to intervene.

___
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wilberhum
11-28-2007, 08:42 PM
Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.
At least to me, It is clear who is
inciting religious hatred
Reply

Joe98
11-28-2007, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada
The whole issue is taken out of proportion totally, and i'm sure its to give a bad message of Islam. And Allah knows best.

And you still think Allah exists?

-
Reply

Cognescenti
11-28-2007, 09:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
About the non muslim in an Islamic state;

[INDENT]Sahih Bukhary:

Volumn 009, Book 083, Hadith Number 049.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Amr : The Prophet said,

"Whoever killed a Mu'ahid (a person who is granted the pledge of protection by the Muslims) shall not smell the fragrance of Paradise though its fragrance can be smelt at a distance of forty years (of traveling)."

And a Quote what is mentioned in Islamqa in one of the Fatwa:

"The non muslims who are protected by sharee’ah (laws of islam) are of three types:

1 – Al-dhimmi. This is one with whom we have a contract or treaty of al-dhimmah (i.e., one who lives in a Muslim state)

2 – Al-mu’aahad. This is one with whose people we have a peace treaty.

3– Al-musta’man. This is one who has entered the Muslim land and has been guaranteed safety, such as those who come to do business, to work, to visit relatives, and so on.".
Nice reference, thank you. The third case would seem to apply here, though it is not really clear who is to give the "guarantee". Here is the problem I think many non-Muslims have. Those bringing the charges here claim to be operating under Sharia. You say they are not and you make a good case but, yet, the poor teacher really is in jail and the whole thing really does seem to be spinning out of control. Surely you can understand why a non-Muslim would be wary of subjecting himself to Sharia when the application of the rules seem to be somewhat arbitrary and there is no hierachical system to render binding decisions.


The rest of your statement is false.

]Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just

[Qur'an 60: 8].
That is an admirable notion but, it seems to me the charge of blasphemy is all about defaming Islam or "fighting for Faith"
Reply

snakelegs
11-28-2007, 09:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Joe98
And you still think Allah exists?

-
why would a person base their belief in god on the acts of other human beings? if that was the measure, we'd probably all be atheists like you. :D
Reply

nevesirth
11-28-2007, 10:31 PM
they want to crucify her for an innocent mistake, isee it as illiteracy, lack of common sense
Reply

wilberhum
11-28-2007, 10:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by nevesirth
they want to crucify her for an innocent mistake, isee it as illiteracy, lack of common sense
Remember that these are Sudan's top clerics.
Reply

al-muslimah
11-28-2007, 11:40 PM
That is sad. She didn't even name it Muhammad, the children she taught did. And so what if ?? She didn't curse Islam or Muhamad(saw) did she?? If she had done so she would have already been executed.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
11-28-2007, 11:50 PM
Are Teddy bears not haraam? Is associating the Prophet with haraam stuff not haraam? If it is, how haraam is it? Is it haraam enough to lash the person?
Reply

al-muslimah
11-29-2007, 12:00 AM
No teddy bears aren't haraam in the prphet's time kids use to play with rag dolla and etc and he didn't condemn them.Well if someone did an action or drew something which insults the Prophet , well in Islam then there is a death penalty for such an action.We can't draw our Prophet or and living thing but especially to insult him.
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Whatsthepoint
11-29-2007, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al-muslimah
No teddy bears aren't haraam in the prphet's time kids use to play with rag dolla and etc and he didn't condemn them.Well if someone did an action or drew something which insults the Prophet , well in Islam then there is a death penalty for such an action.We can't draw our Prophet or and living thing but especially to insult him.
Isn't it haraam to portray humans and animals?
Reply

al-muslimah
11-29-2007, 12:21 AM
Yeah why??Its mean draw as in paint or portrait even statues aren't alllowed in Islam,its facial figures must be destroyed.As he , the prophet commanded Ali(ra) to do when he sent him on a mission.Do you want to know why??
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Whatsthepoint
11-29-2007, 12:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al-muslimah
Yeah why??Its mean draw as in paint or portrait even statues aren't alllowed in Islam,its facial figures must be destroyed.As he , the prophet commanded Ali(ra) to do when he sent him on a mission.Do you want to know why??
Sure.


This one's got eyes, ears, a nose...is it not haraam?
Reply

al-muslimah
11-29-2007, 12:31 AM
No its not. Its not drawn by a person is it? ok the reason why Its haram for us(Muslims) to draw in Islam is because our prophet told us that Whoever draws an animate object shall be told on the day of Judgement to bring it to life which they aren't able to do so then they will be punished, he also told us that the people who will be punished the worst will be those people.
Reply

al-muslimah
11-29-2007, 12:32 AM
No its ok to have dolls and teddy's I use to love dolls when I was a kid and I had alot.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
11-29-2007, 12:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al-muslimah
No its not. Its not drawn by a person is it? ok the reason why Its haram for us(Muslims) to draw in Islam is because our prophet told us that Whoever draws an animate object shall be told on the day of Judgement to bring it to life which they aren't able to do so then they will be punished, he also told us that the people who will be punished the worst will be those people.
It's been designed (drawn) and sewn by people..
Oh, I knew that one before.:okay:
Reply

aamirsaab
11-29-2007, 12:25 PM
:sl:
Bloody hell, this case is all over the place! Every 10 minutes it's being shown on the news.

Bottom line is:

The name Muhammad is soooooo common, it's one of the most common names in the world. The bear being named Muhammad was the name of the child who named it!

But because a parent complained (probably misunderstood it at firs, if not they made a big mistake) the school had to act accordingly.

Hopefully, the teacher will not be given a punishment (since she hasn't committed the crime) and the news will report this - they seem to be one sided in this affair, concentrating heavily on the punishment for blasphemy in Sudan....which is rather annoying.
Reply

Gator
11-29-2007, 12:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Hopefully, the teacher will not be given a punishment (since she hasn't committed the crime) and the news will report this - they seem to be one sided in this affair, concentrating heavily on the punishment for blasphemy in Sudan....which is rather annoying.
But the question is why is it happening. Why is there such different gulf between they way you think and the people who want her to have the 40 lashes think given that you have this infallible unchanging tangible book that sets out a clearly defined set of rules on how to live?
Reply

aamirsaab
11-29-2007, 01:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
But the question is why is it happening. Why is there such different gulf between they way you think and the people who want her to have the 40 lashes think given that you have this infallible unchanging tangible book that sets out a clearly defined set of rules on how to live?
Because there are dumb people in the world, that's why. Dumb people who come from the same source and follow the same things but still get 5 from 2+2. Why? Because they get dogmatic with the punishments etc, so much that it blinds them from the situation at hand.
Reply

Gator
11-29-2007, 01:52 PM
Can't argue with that.
Reply

root
11-29-2007, 03:00 PM
This is way off topic, so forgive me.

If chess is Haram, why do you choose a chess piece as your avatar aamirsaab?
Reply

aamirsaab
11-29-2007, 03:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
This is way off topic, so forgive me.

If chess is Haram, why do you choose a chess piece as your avatar aamirsaab?
Just pm'd you an explanation. Reason for chess piece? I felt like it but apparantly people (actually just one person who shall go unnamed) wants the halaal bigmac back.
Reply

wilberhum
11-29-2007, 05:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by aamirsaab
Because there are dumb people in the world, that's why. Dumb people who come from the same source and follow the same things but still get 5 from 2+2. Why? Because they get dogmatic with the punishments etc, so much that it blinds them from the situation at hand.
Remember:
Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.
Reply

czgibson
11-29-2007, 05:38 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
But the question is why is it happening. Why is there such different gulf between they way you think and the people who want her to have the 40 lashes think given that you have this infallible unchanging tangible book that sets out a clearly defined set of rules on how to live?
Having a central textual authority can give people with widely differing intepretations of it a real sense of certainty that they know the truth, and that everybody else is wrong. Centuries of history show this to be true.

Peace
Reply

aamirsaab
11-29-2007, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Remember:

Sudan's top clerics said in a statement Wednesday that the full measure of the law should be applied against Gibbons, calling the incident part of a broader Western "plot" against Islam.
See, this is a prime example of how bad some people get blinded (note, this is not directed at wilber).
Reply

wilberhum
11-29-2007, 06:58 PM
New News
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22007049/?GT1=10547
Teacher guilty in 'Muhammad' teddy bear case
She avoids whip, but Sudan court orders 15 days in prison, deportation
Reply

Gator
11-29-2007, 07:00 PM
The court also ordered all men named Muhammad to be deported forthwith to Sweden.


(Just kidding)
Reply

- Qatada -
11-29-2007, 08:23 PM
A fatwa response to the incident:

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-prophets.html
Reply

mark1234
11-29-2007, 08:23 PM
I hope she gets out scott free and they give her an apology for the hurt and distress they have caused her. She is there teaching.... thats all! save your bloody religious laws for people who believe in them! personally I only heard of Muhammed the prophet when it was blasted over the bloody news when someone drew that cartoon (the ones you see everyday in most of the tabloids in the free world) and im sure her and the majority of british/christians are the same. how o earth was someone supposed to know that letting children name a bloody teddy muhammed against the law????? its like a bloody medievel law. I find it hard to believe that countries in this day and age still have religion in their laws. and rule it with an iron fist.
if we can accept their thousands of immigrants and excersice tolerance im sure they can repay the gesture and do it for one of ours!!!!:thumbs_do
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wilberhum
11-29-2007, 08:24 PM


I think it is high time to publish some "Teddy Bear" Cartoons.
Reply

mark1234
11-29-2007, 09:49 PM
cartoons....your kidding aernt you? you know theyll will throw their toys out of their cot!!!!!! some faiths that have never lived in a world where we are free to draw cartoons in the tabloids the same as we have always done... they seem to think their back in their own country where their not allowed to do f@@k all because their whole lives are lived by religion and "faith" we dont do that over here so if they dont like it they know what to do!!!!!! go and live with the taliban, youll like them!... there a good bunch of lads, great sence of humour ive heard!!:D faith religion should be seen and not heard!!:coolious:
Reply

wilberhum
11-29-2007, 09:55 PM



Teddy, you are an insult to religion,
incite hatred, and show contempt for
religious beliefs.

Your a bad bad bear.
Reply

mark1234
11-29-2007, 10:14 PM
who is this muhammed guy anyway??? isnt he a prophet or something. if anyone knows his wherabouts can they ask him to contact me as i need some help doing the lottery!!!!! thanks.:D

(just joking by the way, dont get all "jihad" on me!!!) :D
Reply

- Qatada -
11-29-2007, 10:20 PM
*sigh* - seems like people from this thread haven't been behaving, therefore the thread will have to be closed for the time being. If theres any updates, then some mod can re-open the thread.


Mark, since you're new to the forum - we expect good behaviour from both sides, whether they are muslims or non muslims. :) So please, do not insult the religion. Thankyou.


Heres a fatwa response to the situation incase anyone wants to read about the Islamic stance to it again;

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...-prophets.html



Therefore Thread Closed temporarily atleast.
Reply

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