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Muslim Knight
11-27-2007, 08:07 AM
Israel's sex trafficking


By Raffi Berg
BBC News, Jerusalem


Marina rarely leaves her two-room home in northern Israel these days. She is in hiding - wanted by the Israeli authorities for being an illegal immigrant, and by the criminal gangs who brought her here to sell her into prostitution.

Marina - not her real name - was lured to Israel by human traffickers. During the height of the phenomenon, from the beginning of the 1990s to the early years of 2000, an estimated 3,000 women a year were brought to Israel on the false promise of jobs and a better way of life.

"When I was in the Ukraine, I had a difficult life," said Marina, who came to Israel in 1999 at the age of 33 after answering a newspaper advertisement offering the opportunity to study abroad.

"I was taken to an apartment in Ashkelon, and other women there told me I was now in prostitution. I became hysterical, but a guy starting hitting me and then others there raped me.

"I was then taken to a place where they sold me - just sold me!" she said, recalling how she was locked in a windowless basement for a month, drank water from a toilet and was deprived of food.

That part of her ordeal only ended when she managed to escape, but the physical and mental scars remain.

Last year, the United Nations named Israel as one of the main destinations in the world for trafficked women; it has also consistently appeared as an offender in the annual US State Department's Trafficking in Persons (Tip) report.

This year's report said Israel still does not "fully comply with the minimum standards" to do so.
Like Marina, some trafficked women are brought into the country legally.

In all cases, the traffickers - as many as 20 in the chain from recruitment to sale - take away the women's passports before selling them on to pimps.

Sometimes the women are subjected to degrading human auctions, where they are stripped, examined and sold for $8,000-$10,000.

MAIN ORIGINS OF WOMEN TRAFFICKED TO ISRAEL
Russia
Moldova
Ukraine
Uzbekistan
Belarus

US State Department Trafficking in Persons report 2007 [22MB]

Sanctions threat

Prostitution in Israel is legal. In Tel Aviv's Neve Shaanan district for instance, just a short walk from the city's five-star tourist hotels, brothels masquerading as massage parlours, saunas and even internet cafes, fill the side streets. One such place even operates opposite the local police station.

There are bars on windows and heavily-built men guard the doors, which are only opened to let customers in and out. Inside, groups of sullen-looking women sit in dimly-lit rooms, waiting for their next client. Foreign women fetch the highest prices, with trafficked women forced to work up to 18 hours a day.

For years, the absence of anti-trafficking laws in Israel meant such activity - less risky and often more profitable than trafficking drugs or arms - went unchecked.

"During the first 10 years of trafficking, Israel did absolutely nothing," said Nomi Levenkron, of the Migrant Workers' Hotline, an NGO which helps trafficked women and puts pressure on the state to act.

"Women were trafficked into Israel - the first case we uncovered was in 1992 - and not much really happened," she said.

"Occasionally traffickers were brought to trial, but the victims were arrested as well, they were forced to testify, and then they were deported."

In 2000, trafficking for sexual exploitation was made a crime but the punishments were light and its implementation was poor, NGOs say. It was only after repeated criticism of Israel by the United States - and the threat of sanctions - that authorities began to act.

Investigations into suspected traffickers increased, stiff jail terms were handed down and Israel's borders were tightened against people smuggling.


Changing tactics

There are some 30 women at the Maggan shelter - most from former Soviet states, but also five from China.

"When they come here they are in a bad condition," said Rinat Davidovich, the shelter's director.

"Most have sexual diseases and some have hepatitis and even tuberculosis. They also have problems going to sleep because they remember what used to happen to them at night," she said.

"It's very hard and it's a long procedure to start to help and treat them."

But the true picture might not be so clear-cut. Campaigners say increased police activity has also had an adverse effect. Instead of operating openly in brothels, traffickers have become more discreet, plying their trade in private apartments and escort agencies, making the practice more difficult to detect.

"We've been keeping tabs on trends, in terms of, for instance, prices of exploitative services," said Yedida Wolfe, of the Task Force on Human Trafficking.

"Those prices have not gone up, which leads us to believe that the supply of victims has not gone down.

"While government officials are saying that their efforts have drastically cut the number of victims in the country, the NGOs on the scene really don't feel that's true."
SOURCE http://www.malaysia-today.net/nuc2006/news2007.php?itemid=591



Wow. Talk about God's Chosen People.
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
Wow. Talk about God's Chosen People.
That is a little rough dont you think? (although I dont think the Jews are Gods chosen people) Who says the people doing this are jewish anyways? Have you checked S.A. lately and the large number of Iraqi women who have fled there only to become prostitutes in a land with two of Islams holiest cities... that all said, this is such a disgusting horrible thing to do to women, and Israel should do a lot more to put an end to it, or have to face some sort of international reprucussion. It is sad that these poor women are exploited in such a way and it is even more sad to see that there is such a market of pathetic men that cant get a woman to do what they are after for free. May God help these women to escape this life and be happy again someday.
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islamirama
11-27-2007, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
That is a little rough dont you think? (although I dont think the Jews are Gods chosen people) Who says the people doing this are jewish anyways? Have you checked S.A. lately and the large number of Iraqi women who have fled there only to become prostitutes in a land with two of Islams holiest cities... that all said, this is such a disgusting horrible thing to do to women, and Israel should do a lot more to put an end to it, or have to face some sort of international reprucussion. It is sad that these poor women are exploited in such a way and it is even more sad to see that there is such a market of pathetic men that cant get a woman to do what they are after for free. May God help these women to escape this life and be happy again someday.
Jews WERE the chosen people till the God finally said enough is enough cuz of their killing of the Prophets and never obeying God. Christians and Muslims are the oppressed and zionist jews are the tyrant masters in israel, so who could it be but jews?

Also, there's many reports out there showing evidence of jew owned porn sites with american soldiers raping iraqi women during the invasion. As for iraqi women going into prostitution, its around 50,000 refuge women FORCED into prostution in order to survive as a result of the occupation of Iraq and killing of 1 million iraqi. These women who used to do niqaab and never talk to men not related to them now are forced to sell themselves to put food in their kids mouth. This the democracy the kuffars brought to iraq.
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 04:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
Jews WERE the chosen people till the God finally said enough is enough cuz of their killing of the Prophets and never obeying God. Christians and Muslims are the oppressed and zionist jews are the tyrant masters in israel, so who could it be but jews?

Also, there's many reports out there showing evidence of jew owned porn sites with american soldiers raping iraqi women during the invasion. As for iraqi women going into prostitution, its around 50,000 refuge women FORCED into prostution in order to survive as a result of the occupation of Iraq and killing of 1 million iraqi. These women who used to do niqaab and never talk to men not related to them now are forced to sell themselves to put food in their kids mouth. This the democracy the kuffars brought to iraq.
The chosen people of God will be revealed with the coming of Christ, and it is not for me or you to say, it may be millenia before that happens and there is no guarantee it will happen in our lives.

As far as your second paragraph, who knows what is shown on porn sites, I do know they are designed to cater to fanatasies and most are filmed in CA, where there arent many troops or Iraqi refugees. Although I am sure there are films that show "troops" having sex with Iraqi women, I doubt they are real since every case that comes to light like these the perpetrators are typically brought to justice.

As for Iraqi women being "forced", I think not, Allah tests us all and it is what we do when those tests are presented to us that determines the type of person we are, Islam allows for men to have more than one wife for this reason and I am sure there are 50,000 men out there that these women could arrange with rather than prostitute themselves to.

As for these women being perfect before the US presense, maybe you should rethink that statement, take Saddam and his sons for instance, they used to sadistically rape and torture whatever women they wanted. As for these women being without husbands, the US hasnt killed a fraction of Iraqis that the AQI fighters have killed, perhaps instead of constantly blaming the west you should look at these freedom fighters. Obviously the Iraqis are since they are now helping the US troops drive them out of their country.

Only the future will give us the real answer to whether or not we help or hurt the Iraqis, God knows I hope democracy can be their answer and they can flourish in peace for once.
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KAding
11-27-2007, 05:14 PM
Seems a bit odd to focus on Israel so much here. It's not as if it is alone with this problem.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/6497799.stm
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Keltoi
11-27-2007, 05:21 PM
Kading beat me to it, but forced prostitution is hardly a Jewish phenomenon. I watched a documentary recently about the women of Nepal who are forced into sex slavery. Guess who the primary clients for those women happens to be? Hint...it isn't Jews.
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جوري
11-27-2007, 05:36 PM
yeah but it is the Jewish phenomenon that intrigues us because they have insinuated themselves in our neck of the wood!!!

cheers!
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جوري
11-27-2007, 05:42 PM
P.S.S 'chosen people' were the sons of Jacob (the twelve tribes from his twelve sons) has nothing to do with the colonial settler state of Israel as we know it today.. Abraham himself having originally come from Iraq, not from china or Belgium, and I don't know many of today's Jews to be middle eastern in origin. those who were became Christian advent to Christ and then Muslim.. only a handful remained Jewish, and they are not the ashkenazics of today-- thus nothing chosen there... if it were the case.. they would have awaited the 'promised moschaich' to lead them to the promised land, not taken it by force.. but this topic would belong to comparative no?


cheers!
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 06:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
yeah but it is the Jewish phenomenon that intrigues us because they have insinuated themselves in our neck of the wood!!!

cheers!
There already had been Jews in "your neck of the woods" for several thousand years when the Kaaba still held icons of tribal deities.

I should think y'all would be used to it.
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InToTheRain
11-27-2007, 06:03 PM
I read this some time ago...I am pretty sure they are the number 1 in this trade...

‘the United Nations named Israel as one of the main destinations in the world for trafficked women; it has also consistently appeared as an offender in the annual US State Department’s Trafficking in Persons (Tip) report.’



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7070929.stm

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/sexisrael69690531.html

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...062297,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,129157,00.html


...:mad:
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 06:10 PM
I am neither a Jew nor Israeli, but the depth of virulent hatred toward both evident in this thread is revealing.

This really has more to do with Russian/Ukranian organized crime than it does Jews. Of course, one musn't let such thinking get in the way of a good anti-semitic pinata bashing.

It is quite refreshing to see that at least one group of people are more hated than Americans. Woohooo!
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جوري
11-27-2007, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
There already had been Jews in "your neck of the woods" for several thousand years when the Kaaba still held icons of tribal deities.

I should think y'all would be used to it.
Do you have something of substance to impart? What do Jews in our neck of the wood have to do with the SECULAR COLONIAL SETTLER ZIONIST STATE OF ISRAEL?

Pls buzz off, I have important things to attend to today and don't have the time for a retired old fossil to part with quasi clever remarks.. Go play with yourself in a more productive manner!
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جوري
11-27-2007, 06:16 PM
Try to use the term 'Anti-semitic' on a forum where it will matter.. the card has been used excessively and it is rather droll, considering many Muslims here are in fact semitic...
Go open a book and read it

Main Entry: 1Se·mit·ic
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈmi-tik also -ˈme-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: German semitisch, from Semit, Semite Semite, probably from New Latin Semita, from Late Latin Sem Shem
Date: 1813
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic
Of or relating to or characteristic of Semites

so how about ti7il 3an nafokhna before I start accusing you of being an anti-semite? ey
buzz off!
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Cognescenti
11-27-2007, 06:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Try to use the term 'Anti-semitic' on a forum where it will matter.. the card has been used excessively and it is rather droll, considering many Muslims here are in fact semitic...
Go open a book and read it

Main Entry: 1Se·mit·ic
Pronunciation: \sə-ˈmi-tik also -ˈme-\
Function: adjective
Etymology: German semitisch, from Semit, Semite Semite, probably from New Latin Semita, from Late Latin Sem Shem
Date: 1813
1 : of, relating to, or constituting a subfamily of the Afro-Asiatic language family that includes Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, and Amharic
Of or relating to or characteristic of Semites

so how about ti7il 3an nafokhna before I start accusing you of being an anti-semite? ey
buzz off!
Oh can it. That is an old story and an old dodge. All readers here know exactly what is meant by the modern English usage of the word.

Here is some breaking news..when the term "Aryan" is used since the mid 19th century the speaker doesn't mean "proto-Indian-Iranians" either.

Call it what you will, Anti-Jew, anti-Hebe, anti-Kike there is some serious hatred on display in this thread and citing the anthropological etymology of a commonly understood word doesnt' erase it. This is the 21st Century, sis.

Thanks for playing.
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KAding
11-27-2007, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
I am neither a Jew nor Israeli, but the depth of virulent hatred toward both evident in this thread is revealing.

This really has more to do with Russian/Ukranian organized crime than it does Jews. Of course, one musn't let such thinking get in the way of a good anti-semitic pinata bashing.

It is quite refreshing to see that at least one group of people are more hated than Americans. Woohooo!
Two more groups you mean. Muslims and Jews! :skeleton::rollseyes
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 07:06 PM
i dont think it took a thread like this one to show the general disdain that arabs and many muslims have for the Jews.. :X
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- Qatada -
11-27-2007, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
i dont think it took a thread like this one to show the general disdain that arabs and many muslims have for the Jews.. :X

Loads of the Prophets were Jews, hundreds if not thousands of them. I love them, and the believers among them. :) Jacob, David, Moses, Jesus son of Mary to name a few of them. We love, respect and honor them.


Those who harm the believers, and oppress people unjustly - we dislike what they do, no matter who its from. Even if muslims do that wrong.
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Jayda
11-27-2007, 07:14 PM
hola

i think the topic has dwindled off into antisemitism a bit too much.

human trafficking is a major issue in africa, latin america and eastern europe and i saw a map on the previous page that showed a very interesting trend of people being trafficked from the developing world into the developed world. it is frightening to think that this happens in our own backyards... but it also seems a little fantastic. i could not imagine any of my neighbors or friends secretly holding foreign people captive in their homes... it would be totally out of place. i am sure many others feel the same...

i wonder how so this could happen to so many people without anyone really knowing about it... and what type of person is it that decides to take another person as a slave? is it a psychological problem or just an abusive nature?

que Dios te bendiga
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 07:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Qatada -
Loads of the Prophets were Jews, hundreds if not thousands of them. I love them, and the believers among them. :) Jacob, David, Moses, Jesus son of Mary to name a few of them. We love, respect and honor them.


Those who harm the believers, and oppress people unjustly - we dislike what they do, no matter who its from. Even if muslims do that wrong.
I was talking about the modern day jews but I get where you are going :)
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Jayda
11-27-2007, 07:17 PM
jews and hebrews are not the same... jews (tribe of jude) are one of the two remaining tribes (along with levites) who survived the assyrian exile. hebrews refer to the ancient people that included all of the tribes and their prophets were not all from the tribe of jude.
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Trumble
11-27-2007, 07:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Oh can it. That is an old story and an old dodge. All readers here know exactly what is meant by the modern English usage of the word.
Indeed. It's not even a case of knowing "what is meant", it is how "anti-semite" is defined. The usual meaning of the prefix does not, in this instance, dictate the meaning of the compound. Opening a book, in the form of a dictionary, is indeed helpful - but you need to look up the right word. :sunny:
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جوري
11-27-2007, 07:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Oh can it. That is an old story and an old dodge. All readers here know exactly what is meant by the modern English usage of the word.
Take a hike gadfly

Here is some breaking news..when the term "Aryan" is used since the mid 19th century the speaker doesn't mean "proto-Indian-Iranians" either.
this affects me how?

Call it what you will, Anti-Jew, anti-Hebe, anti-Kike there is some serious hatred on display in this thread and citing the anthropological etymology of a commonly understood word doesnt' erase it. This is the 21st Century, sis.

Thanks for playing.
Again, I ain't your sis..don't like participating here don't be here..you are bound to read things you won't like...
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wilberhum
11-27-2007, 07:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
hola

i think the topic has dwindled off into antisemitism a bit too much.

human trafficking is a major issue in africa, latin america and eastern europe and i saw a map on the previous page that showed a very interesting trend of people being trafficked from the developing world into the developed world. it is frightening to think that this happens in our own backyards... but it also seems a little fantastic. i could not imagine any of my neighbors or friends secretly holding foreign people captive in their homes... it would be totally out of place. i am sure many others feel the same...

i wonder how so this could happen to so many people without anyone really knowing about it... and what type of person is it that decides to take another person as a slave? is it a psychological problem or just an abusive nature?

que Dios te bendiga
The trafficking will always be from developing countries to developed countries.

Without anyone really knowing about it? You must be joking. :(

Illegal immigrants are a prime source/target to Human Trafficking.

Just one more reason we need to stop illegal immigration. :hiding:
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 07:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

Illegal immigrants are a prime source/target to Human Trafficking.

Just one more reason we need to stop illegal immigration. :hiding:
wow, another really excellent point, nice one wilbur
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Keltoi
11-27-2007, 07:38 PM
I believe a forced prostitution ring was busted up in Chicago recently that involved illegal aliens.
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wilberhum
11-27-2007, 08:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I believe a forced prostitution ring was busted up in Chicago recently that involved illegal aliens.
Illegal immigrants are the main source of forced prostitution.

They can't go to the legal authority and they have few if any options.

Many are smuggled into the country for that very purpose, they just don’t know it.

Remember that many of these “Victims” hired criminals to get them here.
Just imagine that. A criminal taking advantage of some one.
Who would have ever thought? :hiding:

Then there are the “Border Patrol” widows and the “Law Enforcement” widows. Made widows by those nice “Coyoties” those innocent people hired.

And some people just sit back and say “What’s the problem” or "you’re just a bigot". :hmm:
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 08:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Illegal immigrants are the main source of forced prostitution.

They can't go to the legal authority and they have few if any options.

Many are smuggled into the country for that very purpose, they just don’t know it.

Remember that many of these “Victims” hired criminals to get them here.
Just imagine that. A criminal taking advantage of some one.
Who would have ever thought? :hiding:

Then there are the “Border Patrol” widows and the “Law Enforcement” widows. Made widows by those nice “Coyoties” those innocent people hired.

And some people just sit back and say “What’s the problem” or "you’re just a bigot". :hmm:

great points, but how do you actually control immigration and sex trafficking? especially in places like the US and Europe where borders are largely unsecured? How do you secure the border effectively? I have gone around and around in my head about this, because with such a long range of desert border the opportunities are endless for those who wish to try, it is like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally in the next 20 -30 years i would like to see optical recognition instituted everywhere, that way in order to get into buildings, etc. you have a completely unique ID and when the ID does not match the appropriate parties are alerted. It may sound far fetched but it is already in use in Dubai and is proving very effective.
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wilberhum
11-27-2007, 08:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MTAFFI
great points, but how do you actually control immigration and sex trafficking? especially in places like the US and Europe where borders are largely unsecured? How do you secure the border effectively? I have gone around and around in my head about this, because with such a long range of desert border the opportunities are endless for those who wish to try, it is like being caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally in the next 20 -30 years i would like to see optical recognition instituted everywhere, that way in order to get into buildings, etc. you have a completely unique ID and when the ID does not match the appropriate parties are alerted. It may sound far fetched but it is already in use in Dubai and is proving very effective.
How do you actually control immigration and sex trafficking?
Especially in places like the US and Europe where borders are largely unsecured?

I think the second question is the answer to the first.
You can not control immigration without border security.
If I had a cupple of the billions being spent by Bush on the war he started, I think I could do a lot. But then that would hurt the "Big Businesses" that Bush wants to protect an my cost. Oh well so goes life.

But one thing is sure, continuing to ignore the problem will not solve it.

The longer we wait, the worse it will get. :?
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MTAFFI
11-27-2007, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum

But one thing is sure, continuing to ignore the problem will not solve it.

The longer we wait, the worse it will get. :?
agreed
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Keltoi
11-28-2007, 12:25 AM
There is also a sort of indentured servitude(slavery by another name), in which women are promised free passage to the U.S. as long as they "work" off their loan. This happens primarily within the Chinese immigrant community, but it exists nonetheless.
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Isambard
11-28-2007, 12:46 AM
I really dont see how human traffiking is "Jewish" at all.

Its done mostly by organized criminal groups operating in the black market.
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Tania
11-28-2007, 03:17 AM
But the authorities from Israel should not take certain actions against the traffic :? I think thats why they are cupable.
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Amadeus85
11-28-2007, 08:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by PurestAmbrosia
Do you have something of substance to impart? What do Jews in our neck of the wood have to do with the SECULAR COLONIAL SETTLER ZIONIST STATE OF ISRAEL?
Mmm i think that it would be hard to find more theocratic state in Middle East than Israel. Iran maybe...
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snakelegs
11-28-2007, 09:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Mmm i think that it would be hard to find more theocratic state in Middle East than Israel. Iran maybe...
israel theocratic???? no way. zionism is a secular, political movement which used religion. israel, though it considers itself a "jewish state" is not a theocracy and was not intended to be.
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north_malaysian
11-28-2007, 11:29 AM
Great Jews in Islam

Abdullah bin Salam (a.k.a Al Husayn ibn Sailam)
* Medinite Jew
* The first rabbi converted to Islam.
* First Muslim that was promised to be member of Paradise.

Safiyya Bint Huyay
* Medinite Jew
* Prophet Muhammad's wife
* Mother of the Faithfuls
* Supplied food and water to Caliph Uthman when he was besieged

Ali ibn Sahl
* Persian Jew
* Scholar in Medicine
* Teacher of Al Razi (Rhazes)

Ibn Kammuna
* Philosopher
* Expounder of the Illuminationist Philosophy

Ibn Killis (a.k.a Abu Al Farj Ya'qub bin Yusuf)
* Iraqi Jew
* First Chief Minister of Fatimide Caliphate in Egypt
* Founder of Al Azhar University

Ka'ab Al Abhar (Ka'ab ibn Mati Al Himyari)
* Yemenite Jew
* ex-Rabbi
* Caliph Uthman's Counselor and Advisor regarding to holy sites in Jerusalem

Muhammad Asad (Leopold Weiss)
* Austrian Jew
* Traveller
* Translator of the Koran

Rashid Al Din
* Persian Jew
* Historian
* Physician
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Amadeus85
11-28-2007, 11:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
israel theocratic???? no way. zionism is a secular, political movement which used religion. israel, though it considers itself a "jewish state" is not a theocracy and was not intended to be.
Only if you knew what powers have orthodox jewish laws in Israel, you would change your mind.
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cihad
11-28-2007, 11:58 AM
Wow this thread is such a catfight...I think i'll go look for some other decent civilized conversation(thread)

btw: prostitution is such a disgusting and dirty thing
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جوري
11-28-2007, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Mmm i think that it would be hard to find more theocratic state in Middle East than Israel. Iran maybe...
Both Israel and Iran are secular states, you need only read more about shiites and visit the questions about Judaism answered by a Jew thread to figure that out. Personally it is visible to the naked eye... Israel is but a mini United states, except they do most of the thinking for the U.S.. Just like in the book of mice and men from your days in junior high!


cheers!
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KAding
11-28-2007, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Only if you knew what powers have orthodox jewish laws in Israel, you would change your mind.
Well. Some Jewish laws might well be implemented in Israel and orthodox Jews might well have a large influence. However, this is simply a result of the democratic system in Israel and not a result of the political system as such. In other words, there are no mechanisms in the Israeli constitution that enforce Jewish law or forbid laws that are in violation of Jewish law. This is completely contrary to for example Iran or Saudi-Arabia where laws are theoretically checked to see if they are not in violation of Islamic Law. There are separate legislative or judicial institutions in those countries that are responsible for this, such as the Council of Guardians in Iran.

I don't think you could ever call a country 'theocratic' if it fails this basic test IMHO, if it's constitution doesn't even prescribe that religious law trumps any other law.
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Amadeus85
11-28-2007, 09:34 PM
I was rather talking about the influence of orthodox Jews on for example Israel's immigration law (orthodox decide who is Jew and who is not),on army (the rabbies in military are all orthodox), religion case (only orthodox synagogues get finincial support from the state) the family and marriage issues. Maybe im wrong but isn't the road movement closed in Sabat in Israeli citis? Or it is only in orthodox areas?
PS. I know that in constitution Israel is secular country, but the religious parties have played very important role in most of israeli goverments, and politicians ussually dont resist their demands.
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snakelegs
11-28-2007, 09:51 PM
yes, they have a lot of influence - as KAding said. but that is a far cry from theocracy. in fact, if they didn't have an external enemy the secular and religious would probably go to war with each other. (ah, the beauty of an external enemy!)
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al-muslimah
12-02-2007, 03:48 AM
Wow. Talk about God's Chosen People.--Muslim Knight

Yeah they were till they killed their prophets, made the halal haram, and disobeyed Allah. No wonder they are the descendants of the pigs and monkeys they have no brains at all.I can't believe these cowards who are leaders of the Muslims actually gave it generoously to those qird and khanazeer.Allahuman surnah
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snakelegs
12-02-2007, 04:30 AM
your posts are always so enlightening.
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Muslim Knight
12-02-2007, 07:45 AM
As expounded by Shaykh Imran N. Hossein in his book Jerusalem in the Quran, the Zionists are not solely to blame for the various vices and wrongs that are happening inside Israel.

They're only acting upon what's been allowed in the Torah as result of corruption of the Scriptures by the previous rabbinical scholars.

Thus I can only agree on Aaron85 when he says theocracy have so much influence and power to dictate the direction where the secular authority of Israel is heading towards.

My only concern is the Jewish so vocal in claiming to be God's Chosen People. If it is indeed so they should present moral superiority rather than the opposite. They must show why they really deserve the Promised Land, acting as its moral guardian, rather than allow evil such as human trafficking that tantamount to slavery to be perpetrated.

Similarly when you claim to be a leader, you claim to be superior, hence you lose rights to claim yourself as a mere human being when you do wrong. If you cannot act morally superior then you'd better come down here and join us masses of mere human being.
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Amadeus85
12-02-2007, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
As expounded by Shaykh Imran N. Hossein in his book Jerusalem in the Quran, the Zionists are not solely to blame for the various vices and wrongs that are happening inside Israel.

They're only acting upon what's been allowed in the Torah as result of corruption of the Scriptures by the previous rabbinical scholars.

Thus I can only agree on Aaron85 when he says theocracy have so much influence and power to dictate the direction where the secular authority of Israel is heading towards.

My only concern is the Jewish so vocal in claiming to be God's Chosen People. If it is indeed so they should present moral superiority rather than the opposite. They must show why they really deserve the Promised Land, acting as its moral guardian, rather than allow evil such as human trafficking that tantamount to slavery to be perpetrated.

Similarly when you claim to be a leader, you claim to be superior, hence you lose rights to claim yourself as a mere human being when you do wrong. If you cannot act morally superior then you'd better come down here and join us masses of mere human being.
Well, you should notice that only about 25 % of Israeli citizens are ultraotrhodox Jews. The rest are secular Jews (which means all kinds of people like reformed Jews, conservative Jews,agnostic Jews,) and Arabs.
In Israel average ultraorthodox family has more than 7 children, which is three time more than secular Jews and two times more than Arabs have. Probably in 2050 A.D orthodox Jews will make up about 80 % of israeli Jews.
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Muslim Knight
12-02-2007, 02:32 PM
If you're secular, would you be allowed to make claim upon the basis from a religious book?
I think the question is somehow defective. Let me rephrase it again.

If you're secular, would it be fair to allow you to make claim on a land upon the basis from a religious book?
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Amadeus85
12-02-2007, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
If you're secular, would you be allowed to make claim upon the basis from a religious book?

It's like a mechanic trying to repair a car engine while professing not to be a doctor, but taking cues from books on Medicines.
Well, the truth is that most probably this century,XXI, will be very religious, in all continents. It's also due to the fact that very religious people have more children than the secular ones.It is seen especially in Israel, but also in muslim world and even in Europe.So we just can't help it. Its a fact.:)
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KAding
12-02-2007, 03:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
Well, you should notice that only about 25 % of Israeli citizens are ultraotrhodox Jews. The rest are secular Jews (which means all kinds of people like reformed Jews, conservative Jews,agnostic Jews,) and Arabs.
In Israel average ultraorthodox family has more than 7 children, which is three time more than secular Jews and two times more than Arabs have. Probably in 2050 A.D orthodox Jews will make up about 80 % of israeli Jews.
Of course, this assumes all Jews born in an Orthodox family will become Orthodox themselves. Using that logic, for example, no Christian country could ever have become secularized?
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Amadeus85
12-02-2007, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by KAding
Of course, this assumes all Jews born in an Orthodox family will become Orthodox themselves. Using that logic, for example, no Christian country could ever have become secularized?
If we notice that Orthodoxes families have their own school system, their own streets and suburbs, where they dont have contact with secular citizens it is highly possible.
You also forgot to mention that secular Jews can become orthodoxes.
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Bittersteel
12-02-2007, 04:01 PM
in spite of Israel having democracy and secular establishments I was surprised to hear this;50 per cent of Israelis have considered themselves as conservatives in one survey.

it just shows trafficking happens everywhere;nothing else much eh?
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Muslim Knight
12-02-2007, 04:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aziz

it just shows trafficking happens everywhere;nothing else much eh?
by virtue of being the much coveted Promised Land, it shouldn't have occurred there. but it did and still does.
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Isambard
12-02-2007, 05:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
by virtue of being the much coveted Promised Land, it shouldn't have occurred there. but it did and still does.
As far as I'm aware, every country has organized crime and blackmarkets. Regardless of how much regulations you may have, if the demand is great enough, there will be people to "supply" you.

Also wanted to add in regards to Zionism, its a nationalist movement justifying itself thru ethocentrality. It may have some religious overtones, but that certainly isn't the main motivating factor.
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snakelegs
12-02-2007, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
As expounded by Shaykh Imran N. Hossein in his book Jerusalem in the Quran, the Zionists are not solely to blame for the various vices and wrongs that are happening inside Israel.

They're only acting upon what's been allowed in the Torah as result of corruption of the Scriptures by the previous rabbinical scholars.

Thus I can only agree on Aaron85 when he says theocracy have so much influence and power to dictate the direction where the secular authority of Israel is heading towards.

My only concern is the Jewish so vocal in claiming to be God's Chosen People. If it is indeed so they should present moral superiority rather than the opposite. They must show why they really deserve the Promised Land, acting as its moral guardian, rather than allow evil such as human trafficking that tantamount to slavery to be perpetrated.

Similarly when you claim to be a leader, you claim to be superior, hence you lose rights to claim yourself as a mere human being when you do wrong. If you cannot act morally superior then you'd better come down here and join us masses of mere human being.
your claim that because the zionists used religion as the pretext for deserving a state, they should practice it makes sense. but then you contradict yourself by claiming that "They're only acting upon what's been allowed in the Torah as result of corruption of the Scriptures by the previous rabbinical scholars"
if this is true, then they are living up to their evil and corrupt religion which condones sex trafficking and exploitation!! ;D
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Muslim Knight
12-03-2007, 12:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
your claim that because the zionists used religion as the pretext for deserving a state, they should practice it makes sense. but then you contradict yourself by claiming that "They're only acting upon what's been allowed in the Torah as result of corruption of the Scriptures by the previous rabbinical scholars"
if this is true, then they are living up to their evil and corrupt religion which condones sex trafficking and exploitation!! ;D

I would say rather it's their contradiction. Then again if it is true, it would be much simpler to deal with the problem, now wouldn't it?
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snakelegs
12-03-2007, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
I would say rather it's their contradiction. Then again if it is true, it would be much simpler to deal with the problem, now wouldn't it?
how is it a contradiction? israel is a secular state. zionism is a secular ideology. why shouldn't israel be just as evil as everybody else?
sex trafficking goes on all over the world. it is just another manifestion of exploiting poor people. it's horrible. so is trafficking in body parts, in children etc etc.
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Muslim Knight
12-03-2007, 12:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
how is it a contradiction? israel is a secular state. zionism is a secular ideology. why shouldn't israel be just as evil as everybody else?
As I asked earlier on, would it be fair for secular people to make claim on a land on the basis that is extracted from religious text (assuming that the Torah says God gave the Promised Land to Jewish people)? There lies the contradiction, snakelegs. This is not my contradiction.

sex trafficking goes on all over the world. it is just another manifestion of exploiting poor people. it's horrible. so is trafficking in body parts, in children etc etc.
That I agree. Which is why people with religious values must see this as a serious problem that need solving.
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Pygoscelis
12-03-2007, 02:08 AM
Its a shame to see things like this. If only people could get over this sex trade taboo we'd have it above board and trafficking sex slaves would be so unprofitable that it'd die out.
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snakelegs
12-03-2007, 02:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Knight
As I asked earlier on, would it be fair for secular people to make claim on a land on the basis that is extracted from religious text (assuming that the Torah says God gave the Promised Land to Jewish people)? There lies the contradiction, snakelegs. This is not my contradiction.



That I agree. Which is why people with religious values must see this as a serious problem that need solving.
would it be fair? no. but here we are.
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Tania
12-03-2007, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Its a shame to see things like this. If only people could get over this sex trade taboo we'd have it above board and trafficking sex slaves would be so unprofitable that it'd die out.
Its the oldest job in the world and if a miracle didn't happen with the human nature never will die out.
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