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Amadeus85
11-29-2007, 12:17 PM
Two nights of youth violence in immigrant suburbs show little has changed since 2005.
By Geraldine Baum, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
November 28, 2007
VILLIERS-LE-BEL, FRANCE -- They burned the library overnight during a riot in this gritty suburb outside Paris. The blackened shelves and books were thrown around like garbage the next morning, and singed desks were piled on top of one another like old firewood.

As they examined the wreckage Tuesday -- the senator, the sports coach and the teenagers with sticks and pipes still walking around in the light of day -- all had similar explanations. Why the arson up and down the commercial streets? Why the attack on a preschool and the area's only train station? The deaths of two teenagers after their motorbike collided Sunday with a police car had ignited a melee.

 
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But why two nights of unparalleled violence against police by disaffected youth?

"It's a way of making people understand we've had enough," says Charlie Koissi, the 31-year-old coach who seems to know every kid who passes by and gives each one a high-five. "When you touch one of our brothers, no matter what [his] origin, it concerns us."

Raymonde Le Texier, the senator who represents the area in Parliament and has lived here 40 years, describes pent-up rage by black and Muslim children of immigrants who feel lost and abandoned in the projects.

"People feel forgotten by those in power," says Le Texier, a member of the Socialist Party. "It's the truth -- they have been forgotten."

As for the kids, they speak without words. They throw rocks at outsiders and stare angrily at officials such as Prime Minister Francois Fillon, who breezes quickly past the burned-out library and later calls the rioters "criminals." Journalists with their relentless questions are circling around the kids, who half want to be heard and half want to fight them. No, they aren't talking today, and they shout down their "brothers" who try to speak.

By midnight the area had mostly calmed down, but bands of young people set more cars on fire and 22 youths were taken into custody, the regional government said. Unrest flared briefly in the city of Toulouse, in southern France, where 10 cars and another library were torched by roving posses of disaffected youth.



A world apart

Theirs is a world apart, with its own codes and subculture. When France was paralyzed for most of November by widespread strikes, the young in these poor neighborhoods remained calm, quietly enduring the chaos like everybody else. But then two of their own, identified as Moushin, 15, and Larimi, 16, lay dead on the street. They immediately blamed the cops. Cars were set on fire, and blurry photographs of the teenagers with "We Love You" written on them were taped on storefronts and street signs. This time around, the violence came faster and more furiously than in 2005.

During 200 nights of clashes between ghetto youth and riot police that year, there was only one death and sporadic injuries. But after only two nights of confrontations this week, 80 police officers were hospitalized, including six who were seriously injured when rioters assaulted them with stones, gas bombs and firecrackers. At least two dozen officers were hit by pellets fired from guns.

"We're not talking about urban violence anymore, we're talking about insurrection," says Patrice Ribeiro, head of the police union Synergie Officers. "It's more violent than in 2005. . . . We have armed people shooting at police. We knew it was going to happen and it happened."

The senator, the sports coach and the kids with sticks each in their own way could also have predicted the outbreak of violence. Since 2005, not much has changed in the lives of the young rabble-rousers. Despite the money the government has poured into these areas to rehabilitate them, the mood is the same.

In this town of 27,000 -- with its quaint center city of two-story stucco buildings and hulking high-rise apartments on the periphery -- young and older men still roam the streets with nothing to do most weekdays. The jobless rate remains steady at 40%.

Young people "don't have work," says Koissi, the coach. "That's the point."

The City Council built a park for riding motorbikes, a favorite, if not rowdy, pastime of the young in such neighborhoods. But the police tightly control it, complains Koissi. "The police shoo the kids away, and they have nowhere else to go."

The French government has been trying to bring renewal to these tumbledown areas, spending almost $9 billion a year on programs and construction projects. But a recent watchdog report showed that much of the money had been wasted through inefficiency and repetitive services.

There is now a new president, Nicolas Sarkozy, promising more renewal, but he is also the loathed former interior minister of the previous administration who fanned the violence in 2005 by referring to marauding youth as "scum."

Sarkozy, who returns from China today, has made it clear that he'll side with law enforcement and the people who have lost their cars and their businesses to the unrest.

But he also reached out to the parents of the teenage accident victims, inviting them to visit the presidential Elysee Palace so he could express his condolences. They declined the invitation, and the brother of one victim has publicly accused police of inappropriately leaving the scene after the collision.

Two investigations are underway to determine who was at fault.

In the meantime, Le Texier, the senator, scoffs at Sarkozy's urban affairs minister, Fadela Amara, a Muslim who grew up in the projects and is a former Socialist who defected to join the new center-right government. Amara has been on a mission since summer to hear from the residents of the ghetto about what they think must be done and is expected to deliver a plan of action by early next year.

 
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Le Texier says people who know the problems are disgusted by Amara's search for the best strategies: "We've been telling the government for 10 years what needs to be done here."

The most difficult hurdles, she and others agree, are the ones money cannot easily fix. They are endemic to the culture of France's 5 million immigrants, particularly many of the second generation who are born in France but don't feel French.

And so during a night of rage they target a police station, a library: "It's a symbol," says Le Texier, "of the republic, of the city, of the state."



Lost dictionaries

But the hopelessness that might explain away the destruction this week does not justify the misery it brings to the lives of three little boys. At least they don't seem to think so.

On his way home from school for lunch Tuesday, Matthew Touissant, 12, and his two buddies pass by the remains of the library. They survey it soberly.

"The dictionaries were over there," says Yazid, 11, pointing behind the teetering pile of desks.

"In the middle," adds Michael, 11, "was where they welcomed young kids like us."

Matthew lives nearby and came to the library to do homework but also because there was nothing at home to do.

His parents, he says, weren't so much sad as they were shocked that it was destroyed.

"Now," he sighs, "they won't know what to do with me."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...=la-home-world
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Keltoi
11-29-2007, 06:00 PM
This is a more broad view, but I believe alot of this is due to a socialist mindset. Not that these immigrant communities don't have some honest grievances..but I think we all know what they want, which is the government to bring them out of poverty.
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Muezzin
11-30-2007, 02:03 PM
Why don't the French Government go on strike? Industrial action is like a national tradition over there :p
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chosen
11-30-2007, 02:40 PM
I think it is basically frustration on the part of the immigrants...they leave their native countries for another thinking there life will get better...they arrive in France and things are not just handed to them on a silver platter...life is like that people aways think the grass in greener somewhere else....if France was making immigrants life as easy as the immigrants want it..I would be immigrating to France..and I dont even like France..
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Muezzin
11-30-2007, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
This is a more broad view, but I believe alot of this is due to a socialist mindset. Not that these immigrant communities don't have some honest grievances..but I think we all know what they want, which is the government to bring them out of poverty.
Come, come. You say that like it's a bad thing.

Surely the very existence of poverty in affluent, democratic nations is the true crime here?
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Amadeus85
11-30-2007, 03:04 PM
I think that France can be good example for new european countries (like Slovakia,Lithuania, Latvia etc) how not to run immigration politicy. France, by accepting millions of immigrants from Africa, built places on her territory where police, taxis,ambulances and buses cant go, because they would be attacked by "youths". And France will never get back those suburbs.
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Bittersteel
11-30-2007, 03:08 PM
this is weird and unexpected;I expected Sarkozy to be really tough in dealing with such situations.
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islamirama
11-30-2007, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
I think that France can be good example for new european countries (like Slovakia,Lithuania, Latvia etc) how not to run immigration politicy. France, by accepting millions of immigrants from Africa, built places on her territory where police, taxis,ambulances and buses cant go, because they would be attacked by "youths". And France will never get back those suburbs.
The problem isn't immigration alone. The problem lies with the gov't as well. It was nice of them to help africans out by inviting them but what else did they do? you can't bring people from different culture and mentality and then just leave them on their own. The riots are mostly for that reason, these were allowed to come but then no help was provided in re-educating them and offering assistance in adjusting to a new way of life, also they have been dumped in the poor areas of the city and pretty much forgotten. If the gov't had done a proper job of integrating them into the society then they wouldn't be seeing this problem. Millions go to UK to USA and to many other countries, we don't see this problem over there.
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chosen
11-30-2007, 03:53 PM
it wouldnt be tolerated in the United States..Especailly in New York where I live..New York as several really poor areas with a high immigrant/minority population..they are not given any specail treatment. They are allowed to apply for the same assistance any other poor new yorker can apply for..they are not coddled in any way..They are given the opportunity to come here, what they do with it is up to them...I am very sure that France as Immigrants, muslim and otherwise that have come and made great successes out of their lives...hard work breeds success...if those who rioted in the streets put the same effort into their studies they would be doing more of a service to themselves..
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islamirama
11-30-2007, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by chosen
it wouldnt be tolerated in the United States..Especailly in New York where I live..New York as several really poor areas with a high immigrant/minority population..they are not given any specail treatment. They are allowed to apply for the same assistance any other poor new yorker can apply for..they are not coddled in any way..They are given the opportunity to come here, what they do with it is up to them...I am very sure that France as Immigrants, muslim and otherwise that have come and made great successes out of their lives...hard work breeds success...if those who rioted in the streets put the same effort into their studies they would be doing more of a service to themselves..

I agree with you. But you also have to look at the background of those people. They came from africa, a war tone and poverty stricken continent. They learned to fight to get their food and other means. There situation is different than other immigrants,a little re-educating them to norms of the current society would be in france's best interest. Also, i've read that France had been neglecting them and hindering their progress by limiting the opportunities they can seek. It's like blacks in slump towns that don't get any school funding and no on really cares what goes on in there.
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chosen
11-30-2007, 05:33 PM
Im sorry..but people are not animals...even if they come from the worst circumstance..they are not there anymore.I choose to believe that human beings..deep down inside are all the same..they are not animals..these children are being provided with an education.why are they not focusing on that.do they realize that many they have left behind are by far worse off then they are..be greatful everyday for what you have been blessed with...even if it is just a little more than you had yesterday...even if it is less than you had yesterday..why, because if they have a roof over their head and clean water to drink they are much luckier than most....seems to me these youth that are rioting expected life in france to be a bowl of cherries..and instead of being greatful for any change in the right direction..instead of working to improve themselves they are just making demands....DO THEY FORGET WHERE THEY CAME FROM...ARE THEY NOT GREATFUL FOR WHERE THEY ARE TODAY...
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Keltoi
11-30-2007, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Come, come. You say that like it's a bad thing.

Surely the very existence of poverty in affluent, democratic nations is the true crime here?
I don't know if it is a "crime", unless you believe it is the job of the government to take money from more fortunate people in order to prop up the less fortunate. What the government should be doing is creating a business friendly atmosphere in order to bring more job opportunities into the country, not propping up a welfare state. Perhaps it is the conservative in me, but the thought of a government writing checks with tax payer money in order to create a generation of welfare dependants leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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islamirama
11-30-2007, 05:45 PM
I think its also unfair you to blame them entirely and not the gov't for failing to do do their parts.

----------------------

President Jacques Chirac for the first time directly addressed the inequalities and discrimination that have fueled two weeks of rioting across France, saying Thursday that the country has “undeniable problems” in its poor neighborhoods.

“There is a need to respond strongly and rapidly to the undeniable problems faced by many residents of underprivileged neighborhoods around our cities,” he said at a news conference held with Spain’s visiting prime minister.

“Maybe I burnt cars. I know it’s not very nice of me but, to be honest, I am happy that things heated up everywhere to let everybody know that we are sick of it,” said Ahmed Zbeul

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/
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Keltoi
11-30-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamirama
I think its also unfair you to blame them entirely and not the gov't for failing to do do their parts.

----------------------

President Jacques Chirac for the first time directly addressed the inequalities and discrimination that have fueled two weeks of rioting across France, saying Thursday that the country has “undeniable problems” in its poor neighborhoods.

“There is a need to respond strongly and rapidly to the undeniable problems faced by many residents of underprivileged neighborhoods around our cities,” he said at a news conference held with Spain’s visiting prime minister.

“Maybe I burnt cars. I know it’s not very nice of me but, to be honest, I am happy that things heated up everywhere to let everybody know that we are sick of it,” said Ahmed Zbeul

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/
As I stated earlier, I do believe these communities probably have honest grievances, but hoodlums running around burning cars and destroying private property isn't going to win them any sympathy.
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chosen
12-01-2007, 03:31 PM
I think the goverment of france has already done plenty..they allowed them to immigrate, gave them acces to the scholl system and the exact same social programs that poor native born french people have access to...SHOULD THE FRENCH GOVERMENT TREAT POOR IMMIGRANTS BETTER THAN POOR NATIVE FRENCH CITIZENS...if they started doing that you would see resentment on such a level that real, more intense violence might errupt.
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Durrah
12-01-2007, 05:45 PM
People keep referring to many of the Africans and Arabs as immigrants.

THEY ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are french, born and raised in France, many whose ancestors come from french colonized countries, and millions who died for France through WW1 and WW2.

EDIT:They ***SHOULD***have as much rights as white french citizens to equal opportunities, right to good education, employment, protetion from harrasment and brutal treatment but they dont. They have been treated like 3rd class citizens because of the colour of the skin. France is one of the most racist western European countries.

The surbarbs of france are burning again. Because the french police (who are overwhelming white, if not all and racist- not because of their whiteness but because they treat non whites as ****) were once again responsible for the deaths of two non white french teenagers. Maybe if they stopped killing young non white french teenagers, the young non white french youths would not be rioting.

I'm surprised Americans here are been short sighted, considering that this no real difference to many of the riots that took place in America. If you treat people like dirt because of their race (and yes whats happening in France is ALL about race), then people will be angry and restless and will take to the streets.

when you have a police force that is institutionally racist and contiually and unfairly targetting young non white people, then yes those kids will fight back.

keltoi: ethnic minorities would not have to rely on government handouts if they were not so heavily discriminated against. racial discrimination is rife in France- worse than America and the law does nothing to overturn this. what do you expect people to do if they are turned away from employment routinely because they're not 'blanc, blue et rouge' [code for white], or they are turned away from the bank for loans to start their own form of employment? They are stuck in a cycle. They cant find work or make their own work, so many are stuck on dependency. Do not be fooled by the so called liberalism of Europe. Most European countries are by far worse than the united states and despite the history of the U.S, U.S is still an open policy and many people of all races can succeed in America if they have the drive, skills and determination, regardless of race. France now is America in the 50's but without the jim crow laws. It is deeply segregated and if you are not white, then life is difficult, no matter how smart, talented, well educated, law abiding you are. Thats why there are so many french people of African and Arab origin who have left france to live in the U.K and some to the states (***EDIT: these are the ones that can afford to migrate, the poor have no means to leave if they wised to do so and expected to put up with bad conditions). The U.K and U.S is paradise compared to France, because in over there, they have a chance to actually to fulfill their dreams and make a life for themselves and children.


Im surpised the french goverment have not had the U.N come down on them for their racial discrimination.
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Amadeus85
12-01-2007, 05:53 PM
[QUOTE=Durrah;875384]
People keep referring to many of the Africans and Arabs as immigrants.

THEY ARE NOT IMMIGRANTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They are french, born and raised in France, many whose ancestors come from french colonized countries, and millions who died for France through WW1 and WW2.

They have as much rights as white french citizens to equal opportunities, right to good education, employment, protetion from harrasment and brutal treatment
.

It's true, but then you say that ...

They have been treated like 3rd class citizens because of the colour of the skin.
Dont you deny to yourself?

France is one of the most racist western European countries.
Now you sound racist.

The surbarbs of france are burning again
.

It's true.

Because the french police (who are overwhelming white, if not all and racist- not because of their whiteness but because they treat non whites as ****)
You are just anti white racist. At least you sound like that.

were once again responsible for the deaths of two non white french teenagers. Maybe if they stopped killing young non white french teenagers, the young non white french youths would not be rioting.
Well, well, those two teenagers were killed by their own mistake as they were riding a motrbike and hit police car. And then their wanted to use any possibility for riot to burn and destroy.

I'm surprised Americans here are been short sighted, considering that this no real difference to many of the riots that took place in America. If you treat people like dirt because of their race (and yes whats happening in France is ALL about race), then people will be angry and restless and will take to the streets.
In France there are also Chinese, Philipinnes, Latinos, Vietnamese, Indians, but somehow they dont make riots.
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Durrah
12-01-2007, 06:07 PM
aaron,

i have edited my statement, it should have read: [They ***SHOULD***have as much rights as white french citizens to equal opportunities, right to good education, employment, protection from harassment and brutal treatment but they dont. They have been treated like 3rd class citizens because of the colour of the skin. France is one of the most racist western European countries.]

I was typing fast, so i made a typing error.

i am not anti white racist, i have a problem with racism, regardless who its from. you calling me that is just lame and diverting away from the real issue at hand. stating the fact that a) the police in france is mainly white and b) that they are zealous and brutal with their treatment to non whites is not being racist, its stating the fact. That does not mean that a) all white people support is or b) that every white person is like that but the police in france has a real problem with institutional racism and time and time again, many young, often men, who are non white have faced brutal or extreme action against them because of their race, in a way that a white french person would not be treated. If you choose to ignore this, then shame on you.

The kids are rioting not because they just want an excuse to burn cars, its because they're tired and angry at the day to day treatment that they face because they happen to be black, arab etc.. If white French kids were experiencing such hostility day to day from the police, they too would also riot, but they don't experience such bad treatment and harassment. If they did, their would be many white french parents up in arms.

the majority of non white in france are arab or african. they make up the majority and have been in france longer thus are more likely to face the brunt of racism in france. other moinrites do have troubles in france, but just because you personally have not heard about it or the media does not report it, does not mean it does not happen. Media and politician's just like to focus on arabs/africans more.


and i don't believe the young boys hit the police car, i believe that the police hit them! and that would most likely be the case, given past history of treatment of police to non white french youths. actions speak louder than words and french police time and time again shown through their actions extreme brutality on young non white french guys, simply because they are a) non white and b) because under the racist conditions of society, they can get away with it!
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