The Future of Islam

[Elishar]

Hello all, I'm an American studying at the University of San Diego. As the school is Catholic in its denomination we are required to take several religion classes as part of our graduation requirements. For one of these classes I decided to study Islam because it is the second largest and fastest growing religion in the world. As a final project for this class we need to go into the Muslim community and talk with Muslims about a particular topic that interests us and then write a report about it. This is why I am on this forum and I hope that you all will educate me further in my study of Islam.

I have decided to do my report on the Future of Islam, particularly the extent of conservative, liberal or extremist shifts in the Muslim community. My studies into the history of Islam seem to indicate to me that Islam has become more conservative, at least recently, than it was during the time of the Prophet or the Golden Years of Islam . Islam used to be a leader in every field from science to poetry but now they seem less tolerant towards things like science, social issues and other religions or at the very least Islam does not seem to be changing at the same rate as many of the other world religions (I believe that a lot of Christian sects, especially evangelicalism, is also becoming less tolerant respectively as well.) Would you agree with this analysis? If you do agree why do you believe this shift has happened? Do you believe that external, internal or a combination of both factors are to blame for this shift? If you do not agree with the analysis then please educate me as to why you feel my analysis is wrong.

I am also very interested in how Muslims feel their religion is going to change in the coming generations. Do you believe that Islam will become more conservative with time (such as more women choosing to wear the Hijab?) Do you believe this Islam will become more liberal with time (such as women having equal rights in countries that they do not now or taboos such as homosexuality become more accepted in light of scientific evidence?) Do you believe that extremist points of view are going to become more or less prevalent in the next generation? Additionally, do you agree with the way that you believe Islam is going to change? That is, do you see the change in Islam being positive or negative. I would also appreciate it if you would tell me if you are Sunni or Shia (or Sufi even) and what country you identify yourself with (i.e. American Muslim, Iranian Muslim, etc.)

Please do not take offense to anything I have written. I understand that in some Muslim countries some of the examples I have used do not apply or the problems I raised are not problems at all. I also understand that my perspective is distorted by the American media which doesn't portray Muslims in a very good light and that often the only voice we here from the Muslim community are those of extremists. I also understand that those with extremist views make up a very small portion of the population, I am merely interested in whether you think that percentage will increase or decrease in the coming years and why.

[wilberhum]

USD is Catholic? Boy you do need an education.

[chosen]

The future of islam is what muslims decide to make it...with the growing numbers of people practicing radical islam...such as what we have seen in the sudan over the past few weeks...islam can go one of two ways..it can allow the radicals to take the religion of islam hostage..or the moderate muslims who make up the vast majority of the religion can stand up and reclaim their religion and seperate themselves from the radicals..It is a difficult thing for them to do..because it is against Islam itself, to say that a fellow muslim is not muslim..I think this is why they are slow to condemn "muslims" when they act outside the bounderies of proper islam....But I believe this is the most important time ever in the history of islam, and the next 10 or 15 years will be key as to how Islam progresses...I hope the moderates take hold and seperate themselves in everyway from the radicals..

[aadil77]

:sl:

The Future is bright, The Future is Islam:shade:

(just had to post this)

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[aadil77]

The future of islam is what muslims decide to make it...with the growing numbers of people practicing radical islam...such as what we have seen in the sudan over the past few weeks...islam can go one of two ways..it can allow the radicals to take the religion of islam hostage..or the moderate muslims who make up the vast majority of the religion can stand up and reclaim their religion and seperate themselves from the radicals..It is a difficult thing for them to do..because it is against Islam itself, to say that a fellow muslim is not muslim..I think this is why they are slow to condemn "muslims" when they act outside the bounderies of proper islam....But I believe this is the most important time ever in the history of islam, and the next 10 or 15 years will be key as to how Islam progresses...I hope the moderates take hold and seperate themselves in everyway from the radicals..

there is a big difference between radicals and extremists, muslims who practice a stricter version of islam are not considered non muslims or radical , whilst the extremists who blow themselves up are considered kufr as they spread hate and cause other muslims to become extremists. the sudanese people are strong in their belief and would get deeply offended if anything to do with islam is insulted, also the islamic laws will not change, people will have to change according to them

[chosen]

thats find..I get offended when my religion is offended...however even when offended I choose to follow my religion as I was taught....if the muslims in the sudan truley wanted to be practicing muslims they would not have acted the way they did....would your prophet of wanted them to behave the way they did???If the answer in no, then they were wrong, plain and simple...and again I must say that it is my hope that the majority of muslims will reclaim their faith...

[Omar_Mukhtar]

The future of Islam? Who, what and were is this Islam? Who speaks/controls this Islam? Can i meet this Islam?

[Omar_Mukhtar]

quote:with the growing numbers of people practicing radical islam...such as what we have seen in the sudan over the past few weeks

So those people on the streets speak for Sudan? What about those that stayed home or didn't agree with verdict?

[chosen]

I said..such as seen in the Sudan..I would never claim any one nation to be in the wrong..by far there where more people that acted in the correct manner ..than in the incorrect....But it would have been nice to see those who disagreed with the calls for the teachers death.to be out in the street PROTESTING ON BEHALF OF HER...it would have done alot for the image of the country to see those who disagreed with the madness out and having their voices heard..

[chosen]

The people that speak for islam are you..the average muslim in the street...why is it so easy to overlook the power we have as individuals...YOU GO TO YOUR MOSQUE..and ask if there are any among you that would like to visit sudan...bring copies of the quran with you..many poorer people may not even own their own copy..call the mosques in the sudan..see who will welcome you..CHRISTIANS..have no problem with this type of teaching..we have small churches arranging missionary trips all over the world..it seems like a big undertaking..but really it is not

[snakelegs]

The future of Islam? Who, what and were is this Islam? Who speaks/controls this Islam? Can i meet this Islam?

you make a valid point - islam is no monolith. but still, for the purposes of this assignment, certain trends are indentifiable?

[Omar_Mukhtar]

No not really, apart from the fact that ppl have become slightly more " religous", but that is occuring in some parts of the world. Of course for simply reasearch bases one can identify some trends.


p.s to the poster, trying reading "globalised Islam" by something ROY, he is a good scholar.

[chosen]

slightly "more religious"..there is nothing wrong with being religious...I purposley avoided using the word fundamentalist...because I hate the way that word is thrown around in connection to islam...being a fundamentalist as far as religion is concerned is a good thing...fundamentalist practice there religion the way it was intended to be practiced..we should all be fundamentalist..it would certainly be a better world....but for you to say people are getting more religious and linking that in any way to people that are acting in an unislamic way in pure denial..if the muslims in the sudan had been acting like fundamentalist they would have merely corrected the teacher and educated her as to her error..then they would have used it as a learning experience...saying that people wanting this women dead is a way of the sudanese involved becomming "more religious" is a very dangerous attitude

[Fishman]

The people that speak for islam are you..the average muslim in the street...why is it so easy to overlook the power we have as individuals...YOU GO TO YOUR MOSQUE..and ask if there are any among you that would like to visit sudan...bring copies of the quran with you..many poorer people may not even own their own copy..call the mosques in the sudan..see who will welcome you..CHRISTIANS..have no problem with this type of teaching..we have small churches arranging missionary trips all over the world..it seems like a big undertaking..but really it is not

:sl:
Missionary organisations do exist in Islam, such as Tableegi Jamaat and Dawat-e-Islami...
:w:

[aadil77]

:sl:
there were muslims who were protesting for her early release, yes the sudanese muslims were over the top, but I don't think they realise that

[aadil77]

:sl:
Missionary organisations do exist in Islam, such as Tableegi Jamaat and Dawat-e-Islami...
:w:

not so sure about tableeghi jamaat http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/A...Jma'at.htm

[snakelegs]

tableegi is big. some say they have sufi influences.
they only preach to muslims though, don't they? i mean, they don't go around knocking on hindu doors like the mormons do here, or anything...

[Fishman]

not so sure about tableeghi jamaat http://www.islamicacademy.org/html/A...Jma'at.htm

:sl:
Don't blame me, people are not allowed to go into sectarian details here, so I just listed two opposing missionary groups...
:w:

[Fishman]

tableegi is big. some say they have sufi influences.
they only preach to muslims though, don't they? i mean, they don't go around knocking on hindu doors like the mormons do here, or anything...

:sl:
Some also say that they have Salafi influences. And yes, both groups only preach to other Muslims, usually those who have stopped practicing.
:w:

[Amadeus85]

In my opinion the biggest power of islam in the near future lays in demographic boom. If muslims manage to keep this rapid growth, the muslim world will be more powerful.

[Fishman]

In my opinion the biggest power of islam in the near future lays in demographic boom. If muslims manage to keep this rapid growth, the muslim world will be more powerful.

:sl:
Unfortunately this also means a youth bulge, which, coupled with the third world conditions of the Muslim world, may mean lots of angry young men...

A big population is not everything. The Middle East cannot support large numbers of people in its present state, some sort of seawater purifier is necessary to make enough fresh water to water the crops. Underground aquifiers in Saudi Arabia have only about 50 years left in them. And there is also the problem of sea level rise. The major Arab metropolis of Dubai is very close to sea level, and with the world in its current state building underwater hotels and palm-shaped low-lying islands may not be the best business scheme.
:w:

[chosen]

they were over the top and idnt know it...so it is time for the islamic missionary groups that you say exsist to go in and make them understand that they are over the top....many people I speak to are very turned off by islam because of incidents like these..I love the lord and anytime you can bring someone to a true love of peace and god I am happy..

[Amadeus85]

:sl:
Unfortunately this also means a youth bulge, which, coupled with the third world conditions of the Muslim world, may mean lots of angry young men...

A big population is not everything. The Middle East cannot support large numbers of people in its present state, some sort of seawater purifier is necessary to make enough fresh water to water the crops. Underground aquifiers in Saudi Arabia have only about 50 years left in them. And there is also the problem of sea level rise. The major Arab metropolis of Dubai is very close to sea level, and with the world in its current state building underwater hotels and palm-shaped low-lying islands may not be the best business scheme.
:w:

Well, generally i see (near) future of islam in very bright colours. Muslim world will mean more than it did for example 30 years ago. The so called Renessaince of Islam is a reality. Nowadays alsmost every muslim country is more islamic than it was a decade ago or two decades ago. Even countries like Turkey or Malaysia are more islamic, (for example in clothes wearing by women, number of people attending to mosques etc). Islamic education and charities sponsored by oil rich arab states did a good job all over from Algeria to Philipinnes. In effects, countries that 25 years ago were rather culturally muslim, now they become more religious (vide Bosnia).
From the other hand, probably in 2020 A.D the demographic boom in muslim countries (especially arabs and central asia) will be finished. We also shold remember that the oil resources won't last forever.

[Fishman]

they were over the top and idnt know it...so it is time for the islamic missionary groups that you say exsist to go in and make them understand that they are over the top....many people I speak to are very turned off by islam because of incidents like these..I love the lord and anytime you can bring someone to a true love of peace and god I am happy..

:sl:
These missionary groups are often completely non-political, from my experience they never talk about world affairs issues in lectures and stuff. So a lecture on the Teddy is out of the question. But I think this is really a good thing, dogmatising a particular view of the modern world and making it part of the religion is never good. I would hate it if somebody started saying that there is to be a correct Islamic view of world affairs. There is a correct attitiude to have, but no single view of the modern world is a dogma in Islam.
:w:

[barney]

Islam, from what I know of Muslims beleifs, is not going to change.

The future is the past, there will be no "future" because the present and the past are one and the same.
Islam is, has always been and always will be perfect. It is Gods unmallable word and therefore cannot ever change in any way. There is also no need to change anything. If there was a flawless diamond would you start recutting it imperfectly?

There will be no change and no "progress"

[chosen]

there may not be one "islamic world view"..but their are for certain things that are un-islamic..and calling for the death of a human who innocently made a mistke is very unislamic...so do not try to push any one islamic point of view..but point out and teach what is clearly unislamic as this clearly was....

[Fishman]

there may not be one "islamic world view"..but their are for certain things that are un-islamic..and calling for the death of a human who innocently made a mistke is very unislamic...so do not try to push any one islamic point of view..but point out and teach what is clearly unislamic as this clearly was....

:sl:
It is still a rather political topic. Missionary groups usually concentrate on spreading religious practices such as praying the five prayers, zikr, zakaat and the special practices of various holy days such as the two Eids, Millaad-ul-Nabi, Ashura and Ramadan. There are frequent trips to stay in other cities to learn and preach, and there are often bigger trips to other countries as well. This is just my knowledge of Dawat-e-Islami and Tableeghi Jamaat here, other groups may include more politics.
:w:

[snakelegs]

from what i've heard, tableeghi makes it a point to stay away from politics.

[aadil77]

:sl:

yh the biggest future change will probly be demographic, maybe more islamic tolerance in non-muslim countries, more halal food:D,

but this can also mean more non-practising muslims, more extrme imams/mullahs = more uneducated extreme muslims, hopefully these guys should come to their senses by then

[Bittersteel]

the future of Islam is dark.it has started to disappear,owing to liberalism,globalisation,etc.

[rehmans_mba]

Assalam wa alykum,

Islam is the Best regarded in the sight of ALLAH SWT
Because it teaches the real truth of life, purpose of life by removing bad things and allows to inculcate good things in our life.

Just assume who can teach these good ones" Charity, strengthening the weak and feeding them, respecting womens, feeeding and sheltering orphens, removing bad things in our life through good deeds...........etc list goes on ...

Note: though Islam teaches many morals, but today weak knowledge and less awareness has made few human being to follow some illogical things, Show-off and many more which ISALM Doesnt teach and Speak.
If these few understand what quran says and what is Our Prophet PBUH sunna then there will be no more misconception,refutation over Islam teachings prevails completely and fully over the world.

Future of islam: this subject can't be written with the cases which has happend earlier and happening on the face of this earth. as far as the interrogation or question " what will happen next?". no body knows, niether any of human being except ALLAH SWT. but yes as long as we have life on this earth and as long as A strong faith of ALLAH SWT and sunnah Of My & our Prophet PBUH prevails in our life, we can work on setting the real message of islam amoung ourselve and non-muslim brothers and sisters and we been working alahamdulillah.

From the point of the Endeavours putting by our brothers and sisters in spreading the real message of Islam, correcting misconception inshallah islam will be the only way of life for humanity.

May ALLAH SWT Forgive Me if i have or made any wrong in this writing and gudi me to the right Path.

Asslam wa Alaykum.:thankyou:

[The_Prince]

i want to know, what is a moderate Muslim, and what is a radical Muslim?

is a moderate Muslim one who does not want sharia? doesnt wear the hijab, hardly prays, doesnt support Muslim causes such as Palestine, Chechnya etc etc

and is a radical Muslim one who want sharia, one who wears the hijab or niqab, and one who supports Muslim causes such as Palestine and Chechnya etc etc?

hmmm if that is the case then 95% of Muslims are RADICALS.

the majority of Muslims want Sharia, and want Islamic ways, support Palestine, Chechnya, and every other Muslim being oppressed.

there seems to be a mis-understanding, often you see the news reporting the majority in the Muslim world want democracy, yes they do, but to them democracy is SHARIA, for them democracy is freedom and being able to worship freely and make a good living, that to them is SHARIA, because look at those Muslim countries where these ppl are questioned, its countries like egypt, indonesia etc etc all run by secular leaders who are dictators at times......these ppl want the opposite of that, and that is Islamic parties, sharia law, thats why Islamic parties in the mid-east are blooming as we speak.

[wilberhum]

Prince,
As for me, I don't define the difference between moderate and radical by what they want. I base it on what they are willing to do to get what they want.

[al-muslimah]

USD is Catholic? Boy you do need an education.

U need an education, at least he believes in something:giggling:

[al-muslimah]

i want to know, what is a moderate Muslim, and what is a radical Muslim?

is a moderate Muslim one who does not want sharia? doesnt wear the hijab, hardly prays, doesnt support Muslim causes such as Palestine, Chechnya etc etc

and is a radical Muslim one who want sharia, one who wears the hijab or niqab, and one who supports Muslim causes such as Palestine and Chechnya etc etc?

hmmm if that is the case then 95% of Muslims are RADICALS.

the majority of Muslims want Sharia, and want Islamic ways, support Palestine, Chechnya, and every other Muslim being oppressed.

there seems to be a mis-understanding, often you see the news reporting the majority in the Muslim world want democracy, yes they do, but to them democracy is SHARIA, for them democracy is freedom and being able to worship freely and make a good living, that to them is SHARIA, because look at those Muslim countries where these ppl are questioned, its countries like egypt, indonesia etc etc all run by secular leaders who are dictators at times......these ppl want the opposite of that, and that is Islamic parties, sharia law, thats why Islamic parties in the mid-east are blooming as we speak.

Thank you;D

[wilberhum]

U need an education, at least he believes in something:giggling:

The village idiot speaks again.

[al-muslimah]

The village idiot speaks again.

Face it at least I worship God:D?

[Elishar]

Ok, I think I need to clarify exactly what I am writing about.

Quite a few people commented that Islam will not change. Maybe the Qur'an and the Hadith will not change but how people interpret the scripture and how they act in accordance to scripture will change. What I want to know is how do you think Muslims will act differently in the coming generations. For example, are more or less Muslims going to join radical elements and participate in terrorist bombings in the future?

A few other people seemed to have a problem with the idea that Islam is going to go in a unified direction in the future. I don't believe that everyone in Islam is going to become more conservative or liberal but I do believe there will be a general trend or shift that is quantifiable and observable in the future. For example, in the past ten years there has been a major shift in America towards evangelical Christianity. That's not to say all Christians are more evangelical now, just that more Christians are evangelical in the way they practice their faith.

Basically what I'm looking for is the answer to two questions. Is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more or less radical (primarily referring to radicalism as a violent movement) and is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more conservative or more liberal in the future?

[wilberhum]

Face it at least I worship God:D?

What you worship is not god. You seam to worship hate.

[Amadeus85]

[QUOTE=Elishar;877311]

Basically what I'm looking for is the answer to two questions. Is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more or less radical (primarily referring to radicalism as a violent movement

)

It is very possible, mostly because of the great amount of young men between 15 and 25. Big amoung to young often unemployer men always cause troubles (vide in Europe in XVI and XIX century)

and is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more conservative or more liberal in the future?

More conservative i think.

[Keltoi]

I think all religions are seeing an uptick in attendance and new converts. The difference is that Christianity is typically apolitical as far as having a "Christian state", something not even most Christians want. Islam seems to be all about an Islamic state, so there will obviously be changes in that area, as more nations attempt to implement this idea. Granted, most of the experiments with this idea have failed miserably, mainly due to the corrupt nature of the regimes.

[al-muslimah]

What you worship is not god. You seam to worship hate.

Is that what u worship wilber??? :giggling:

[ayesha309]

:sl:
I think the term "radical", "liberal" and "conservative" are a problem becuase their definition, atleast Islamically can vary.
if being "liberal" means leaving the hijab (for women), leaving salaat, zakaat, etc. then Insha'Allah Muslims will not become "liberal". Muslims want to follow the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and leaving actions such as salaat and hijaab go against the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him)

If being "conservative" means attending the mosques frequently, praying 5 daily salaats in the mosque, paying zakaah, going for Umra, Hajj, taking care of the "Masakeen" (the poor, needy, opressed etc), and spreading the word of Allah peacefully, then Insha'Allah Muslims will become "conservative".

Now "radical" is the real problem; if radical means to kill innocents, then Insha'Allah Muslims will never practice this. But Islam has permitted one to fight under spefic rules. The reason is becuase Islam is a complete religion and for it to be comlete, it needs to provide rules for everything, including war. Now in the future, or currently, if Muslims fight following the rules of the war given in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then i think this act will continue, perhaps till the Day of Judgement. If you believe that is radical, well i can't change that.
I hope i have answered your questions and May Allah forgive me for any mistakes i have made. If anybody thinks I have made a mistake in the way I have explained Islam, please do correct me.
:w:

[al-muslimah]

:sl:
I think the term "radical", "liberal" and "conservative" are a problem becuase their definition, atleast Islamically can vary.
if being "liberal" means leaving the hijab (for women), leaving salaat, zakaat, etc. then Insha'Allah Muslims will not become "liberal". Muslims want to follow the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and leaving actions such as salaat and hijaab go against the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him)

If being "conservative" means attending the mosques frequently, praying 5 daily salaats in the mosque, paying zakaah, going for Umra, Hajj, taking care of the "Masakeen" (the poor, needy, opressed etc), and spreading the word of Allah peacefully, then Insha'Allah Muslims will become "conservative".

Now "radical" is the real problem; if radical means to kill innocents, then Insha'Allah Muslims will never practice this. But Islam has permitted one to fight under spefic rules. The reason is becuase Islam is a complete religion and for it to be comlete, it needs to provide rules for everything, including war. Now in the future, or currently, if Muslims fight following the rules of the war given in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then i think this act will continue, perhaps till the Day of Judgement. If you believe that is radical, well i can't change that.
I hope i have answered your questions and May Allah forgive me for any mistakes i have made. If anybody thinks I have made a mistake in the way I have explained Islam, please do correct me.
:w:

Mashallah sister I agree with you. Now u really sound like the most logical and reasonable person in this thread.This is what happens when you rely on the Qur'an and sunnah of Rasullah(saw) u taste the fruit of Islam and true ilm May Allah forgive you and increase you in knowledge.

We muslims are not radical and if practicing Allah's deen is being a radical then count me as a radical.:thumbs_up

[Elishar]

:sl:
I think the term "radical", "liberal" and "conservative" are a problem becuase their definition, atleast Islamically can vary.
if being "liberal" means leaving the hijab (for women), leaving salaat, zakaat, etc. then Insha'Allah Muslims will not become "liberal". Muslims want to follow the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and leaving actions such as salaat and hijaab go against the sunnah of the Prophet (peace be upon him)

If being "conservative" means attending the mosques frequently, praying 5 daily salaats in the mosque, paying zakaah, going for Umra, Hajj, taking care of the "Masakeen" (the poor, needy, opressed etc), and spreading the word of Allah peacefully, then Insha'Allah Muslims will become "conservative".

Now "radical" is the real problem; if radical means to kill innocents, then Insha'Allah Muslims will never practice this. But Islam has permitted one to fight under spefic rules. The reason is becuase Islam is a complete religion and for it to be comlete, it needs to provide rules for everything, including war. Now in the future, or currently, if Muslims fight following the rules of the war given in the Qur'an and Sunnah, then i think this act will continue, perhaps till the Day of Judgement. If you believe that is radical, well i can't change that.
I hope i have answered your questions and May Allah forgive me for any mistakes i have made. If anybody thinks I have made a mistake in the way I have explained Islam, please do correct me.
:w:

You bring up some very good points.

I would define "liberal" as allowing more personal freedoms and generally becoming more accepting to others unlike yourself. You can also define "liberal" as being more equal regarding social issues. Some examples of liberal shift in Islam could be: Women having equal rights to men (such as women being allowed to drive in Saudi Arabia), Women having the personal choice in how much of their face is covered (and not being beaten if their hijab accidentally comes off such as in Afghanistan under Taliban rule), Women not being forced to go back into a burning building if they do not have the hijab on (such as what happened in Saudi Arabia), and women/children not being punished for being raped (as seen in several recent incidents across the Muslim world.)

I would define "conservative" as being more oppressive and more closed off to others. Examples of that would be doing to opposite of many of the examples I provided for liberalism.

The examples you provided such as following the five pillars don't really fit with either liberalism or conservativism. They are more appropriately placed with being "more religious/spiritual" or "less religious/spiritual." Liberalism and conservativism deal more with how you interpret the text, not whether or not you practice your religion's central teachings.

I would define "radical" as engaging in violent or destructive actions when non-violence is still an option. This especially holds true when the violent actions are carried on on innocent people like what happened on 9/11 or the train bombings in Spain.

[Elishar]

I'm not able to edit my posts so I just wanted to clarify something.

more accepting to others unlike yourself

I probably should have said "more accepting to others that are different from you." The way I said it make it seem like I was insulting Ayesha000.

[islamiii]

Future of islam is bright . islam is need of every human being if he or she understand it .future of islam is not in the hands of muslimsbut future of muslims is in the light of islam

[al-muslimah]

Inshallah the future of this one and true religion is soooooooooo near.Indeed Allah(swt) is preparing us for victory.I agree with you brother islamii

[Qingu]

My prediction: the future of Islam will look much like Christianity looks today. There will still be a few extremists and literalists, but for the most part Muslims will have abandoned the central tenets of their religion for scientific truth and enlightenment morals while clinging to a few traditions and superficial Islamic ideas as a form of identity.

The Muslim population is increasing, but this is largely due to high birth rates and heavy indoctrination of the children of Muslim parents. Muslims aren't really converting anyone to Islam anymore. The conversion trends all favor secularism, with much of Europe and America becoming vastly more secularized even in the space of the last half-century. But secular people, unlike Muslims (and religious Jews and Christians), have fewer kids.

In Europe, Christians had a Protestant Reformation, which in turn fueled a Catholic counter-reformation. But during this time the Europeans were making serious scientific advances which contradicted the literal word of the Bible, which they had been told was the absolute truth. I think the religious flare-ups of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation were, in many ways, responses to scientific advances—Christians were on the defensive, so they became more aggressive and fundamentalist.

I think the exact same thing is happening in the Islamic world today, has been happening since maybe the 1920's when the Muslim world basically got conquered by the secular forces of Europe. Muslims have been on the defensive for almost a century, their religion is contradicted left and right by secular science, and their cultural mores are constantly challenged by a society whose citizens are wealthier and more at peace with each other. So modern Muslims, like the 16th-century Christians, are resisting by forcefully invoking their religion and uniting under its banner. Also like the 16th-century Christians, they are murdering each other left and right over disputes of orthodoxy and heresy.

While Muslim numbers and religious fervor might be increasing, this behavior is simply not sustainable in the long-run. And scientific truth always trumps religious "truth," because ultimately scientific truth is useful—it can make bridges, buildings, bandages and bombs. This is why most Christians believe the earth revolves around the sun, even though the Bible says otherwise—you can only deny scientific truth for so long before everyone laughs you off the world stage.

[snakelegs]

Muslims aren't really converting anyone to Islam anymore.

where did you get that info? we have plenty of people right here who are converts to islam.

[Isambard]

where did you get that info? we have plenty of people right here who are converts to islam.

He's referring more-so to general stats as opposed to personal stories.

[Qingu]

where did you get that info? we have plenty of people right here who are converts to islam.

I'm sure for every one I can probably point to two who are "apostates of Islam" on another site. Islam's growth largely correlates with its birth rate. Unlike secularism, which has growth despite a low birth rate. (I think Christianity is either staying even or declining)

[snakelegs]

you could be right when you compare overall figures. i am not likely to run in to apostates from islam.

[Alim Apprentice]

Salams..

...their religion is contradicted left and right by secular science...And scientific truth always trumps religious "truth," because ultimately scientific truth is useful—it can make bridges, buildings, bandages and bombs.

Hmm, I dont think you realised that Islam encourages Muslims to pursue in scientific endeavours. The more you gain knowledge about Allah's creations, the more you learn to appreciate them. That was one of the factors how the Islamic Golden Age came about in the 8th century, and much of the scientific knowledge discovered then contributed to what you see around at this present time. The scientific "truths" that Muslim scholars discovered are based on religious "truths" in the Holy Quran :) Even if we chose to be ignorant of the numerous evidence of science in Al-Quran, it'll always be there. Science is inherent in Islam!

[Qingu]

Hmm, I dont think you realised that Islam encourages Muslims to pursue in scientific endeavours.

I didn't realize this. Why are almost no Muslims scientists? Why has Islamic civilization lagged behind Western civilization in science for 500 years? (Note: I understand "Western" civilization as something different from "Christendom," which gave way to the former around the time of Galileo.)

The more you gain knowledge about Allah's creations, the more you learn to appreciate them. That was one of the factors how the Islamic Golden Age came about in the 8th century, and much of the scientific knowledge discovered then contributed to what you see around at this present time. The scientific "truths" that Muslim scholars discovered are based on religious "truths" in the Holy Quran :)

Really? I thought they were largely based on Greek and Indian philosophic discoveries.

Even if we chose to be ignorant of the numerous evidence of science in Al-Quran, it'll always be there. Science is inherent in Islam!

Christians claim the same thing about the Bible. Hindus claim the same thing about the Vedas and the Mahabharata and the Ramayana.

I've read all these texts (abridged versions, in the case of the Hindu texts) and I don't see anything to suggest they weren't written by bronze age nomads. Science has only made major, world-changing advances in civilizations that are willing to look past their religious traditions and explore nature as they see it—the Greeks, the Romans, Ming-era China, and 15th-century Western Europe, for example.

(This isn't to say other civilazations haven't made important contributions to science—Islamic and dark-age Christendom made advances in alchemy and medicine and architecture, but none of these really changed society in a huge way.)

[Alim Apprentice]

Hmph, why can't there be an easier way to multi quote! Anywayz,

I didn't realize this. Why are almost no Muslims scientists?

That, my friend, is just one of the problems Islam is facing now.. the lack of Muslim scientist of the same calibre of the past *sigh*

Really? I thought they were largely based on Greek and Indian philosophic discoveries.

Ah, yes, Muslim scientific scholars did use Hellenic references. Whatever doesnt conflict against the worldview of Islam was used, since knowledge is a sacred intangable commodity (hope that isnt a paradox) in Islam. What I meant was, the starting point for Muslim scholars is the Holy Quran. Unlike some scientists who do experiments to try to prove/disprove the existance of an Omnipotent being, Muslim scholars, as faithful followers, have it in their mind first hand that Allah created everything.. that he transcends time and space. Keeping that in mind, along with using scientific facts in the Quran, the Muslim scientist proceeds his quest :)

Christians claim the same thing about the Bible. Hindus claim the same thing about the Vedas and the Mahabharata and the Ramayana.

I've read all these texts (abridged versions, in the case of the Hindu texts) and I don't see anything to suggest they weren't written by bronze age nomads. Science has only made major, world-changing advances in civilizations that are willing to look past their religious traditions and explore nature as they see it—the Greeks, the Romans, Ming-era China, and 15th-century Western Europe, for example.

(This isn't to say other civilazations haven't made important contributions to science—Islamic and dark-age Christendom made advances in alchemy and medicine and architecture, but none of these really changed society in a huge way.)

Wow, Im certainly impressed. You certainly know your stuff! However, the last remark about advances in alchemy and medicine not making an impact isn't really true. I mean, without the medicine for example (check out Ibn Sina's Canon of Medicine), Europe would still live in the dark-age era of hygine. That would totally suck ;)

I'd want to search out for more references, especially pertaining the "scientific method" technique used by Islamic scientists so you can get a clearer picture of how science & Islam can mix. Im no expert, still a student of knowledge (as apparent by my Username), but I do enjoy discussions like these!

[Bittersteel]

if I remember correctly,it's said the future is dark with no hope,etc.Like the Kaaba is going to be destroyed,no imams to be found in mosques,etc.
correct me if I am wrong.

[Qingu]

Ah, yes, Muslim scientific scholars did use Hellenic references. Whatever doesnt conflict against the worldview of Islam was used, since knowledge is a sacred intangable commodity (hope that isnt a paradox) in Islam. What I meant was, the starting point for Muslim scholars is the Holy Quran.

I think this is precisely the reason why science is so far behind in Islam today.

Look at Christianity in the history of science. For almost a thousand years, Europe was ruled by the Church and kings (mostly) loyal to it, or at the least dependent on it. The Church had a thriving community of "scholastics"—they were essentially scientists, but their starting point was the literal word of the Bible, and they were forbidden from pursuing any scientific endeavor that might contradict the Bible.

Then Copernicus and Galileo come along and suggest that the earth revolves around the sun. This contradicts the literal word of the Bible, which says the opposite. The Church has a hissy fit and almost sentences Galileo to death.

Luckily, the Church was weakening in power, and the Protestant Reformation meant that people now had the power to read the Bible their own way—which actually meant they could ignore parts of the Bible they didn't like. And this is exactly what happened. Scientists like Isaac Newton expanded on Galileo's theories and basically developed modern science as we know it today—and Newton was a heretic. After Newton, few people took the Bible literally, and today almost no Christians believe the sun revolves around the earth, even though this is exactly what the Bible says. Furthermore, most Christians in the world believe in evolution, even though this contradicts the Bible as well.

In other words—the rise of science in the West coincides with the fall of religion. Science only took root when it was allowed to question some of the central claims in the Bible.

Islam is going to have a problem if it does not allow science to do the same with the Quran. For example, evolution is the basis of modern biology and medicine. It is extremely, extremely difficult to practice biology or research medicine without believing in evolution. But evolution contradicts the literal word of the Quran.

Unlike some scientists who do experiments to try to prove/disprove the existance of an Omnipotent being,

I am unaware of any such experiments. Can you provide links?

Wow, Im certainly impressed. You certainly know your stuff! However, the last remark about advances in alchemy and medicine not making an impact isn't really true. I mean, without the medicine for example (check out Ibn Sina's Canon of Medicine), Europe would still live in the dark-age era of hygine. That would totally suck ;)

I don't think this is quite true. European scholastics, under the church, encountered Muslim advances in these areas in the 1200's. But Europe didn't really wrest itself from the dark ages until the 1500's and 1600's, when the scientific revolution happened.

I think Islamic science certainly contributed to the scientific revolution, mostly because it kept the works of Greek philosophers alive.

But I guess it's possible Europeans smelled a bit better after they encountered Islamic advances. :)

I'd want to search out for more references, especially pertaining the "scientific method" technique used by Islamic scientists so you can get a clearer picture of how science & Islam can mix. Im no expert, still a student of knowledge (as apparent by my Username), but I do enjoy discussions like these!

Ha, thanks. I do too.

I just don't think it's possible to do science with starting assumptions like the ones you've mentioned. The word "science," as it's used today, refers to a very specific methodology that is based on naturalism—this doesn't necessarily rule out "supernatural" forces, but if it encounters something which appears to contradict known laws (i.e. supernatural) it seeks to understand it by experimentation.

A good example is gravity. Under Isaac Newton, gravity was basically a magical force. Nobody had any idea how it worked, it was almost supernatural. But then Einstein showed precisely how gravity works in combination with space and time, and we had to abandon Newton's worldview for Einstein's. Gravity is still a mysterious force—but as we learn more and more about it, it seems less and less supernatural.

Similarly, science doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of gods. If it ever encounters a phenomenon that resembles a god, scientists will test it and try to form theories around it, and incorporate it into what we already know about the universe. But you see how this is very different from assuming at the outset that a god exists and ignoring anything that contradicts that assumption.

I mean, you could certainly do that, but I don't think it should be called "science."

[barney]

Science indeed reinforces the existance of a initial creating force, that mankind has called God or Gods for countless millennia.

Science however can prove the inaccuracies of scripture. Which is no problem if your scriptures are Guidelines, metaphors and not Gods literal word, as Christianity has rapidly scrambled towards this veiw to survive.

The only other way to deal with it is deny science.

[kay106]

Hello all, I'm an American studying at the University of San Diego. As the school is Catholic in its denomination we are required to take several religion classes as part of our graduation requirements. For one of these classes I decided to study Islam because it is the second largest and fastest growing religion in the world. As a final project for this class we need to go into the Muslim community and talk with Muslims about a particular topic that interests us and then write a report about it. This is why I am on this forum and I hope that you all will educate me further in my study of Islam.

I have decided to do my report on the Future of Islam, particularly the extent of conservative, liberal or extremist shifts in the Muslim community. My studies into the history of Islam seem to indicate to me that Islam has become more conservative, at least recently, than it was during the time of the Prophet or the Golden Years of Islam . Islam used to be a leader in every field from science to poetry but now they seem less tolerant towards things like science, social issues and other religions or at the very least Islam does not seem to be changing at the same rate as many of the other world religions (I believe that a lot of Christian sects, especially evangelicalism, is also becoming less tolerant respectively as well.) Would you agree with this analysis? If you do agree why do you believe this shift has happened? Do you believe that external, internal or a combination of both factors are to blame for this shift? If you do not agree with the analysis then please educate me as to why you feel my analysis is wrong.

I am also very interested in how Muslims feel their religion is going to change in the coming generations. Do you believe that Islam will become more conservative with time (such as more women choosing to wear the Hijab?) Do you believe this Islam will become more liberal with time (such as women having equal rights in countries that they do not now or taboos such as homosexuality become more accepted in light of scientific evidence?) Do you believe that extremist points of view are going to become more or less prevalent in the next generation? Additionally, do you agree with the way that you believe Islam is going to change? That is, do you see the change in Islam being positive or negative. I would also appreciate it if you would tell me if you are Sunni or Shia (or Sufi even) and what country you identify yourself with (i.e. American Muslim, Iranian Muslim, etc.)

Please do not take offense to anything I have written. I understand that in some Muslim countries some of the examples I have used do not apply or the problems I raised are not problems at all. I also understand that my perspective is distorted by the American media which doesn't portray Muslims in a very good light and that often the only voice we here from the Muslim community are those of extremists. I also understand that those with extremist views make up a very small portion of the population, I am merely interested in whether you think that percentage will increase or decrease in the coming years and why.

theres very very intresting videos you can watch by Zakir Naik. Khaled Yasin on topics why is the west coming to islam.

[truemuslim]

islam...hmm....FOREVER!!!

[kay106]

I think this is precisely the reason why science is so far behind in Islam today.

Look at Christianity in the history of science. For almost a thousand years, Europe was ruled by the Church and kings (mostly) loyal to it, or at the least dependent on it. The Church had a thriving community of "scholastics"—they were essentially scientists, but their starting point was the literal word of the Bible, and they were forbidden from pursuing any scientific endeavor that might contradict the Bible.

Then Copernicus and Galileo come along and suggest that the earth revolves around the sun. This contradicts the literal word of the Bible, which says the opposite. The Church has a hissy fit and almost sentences Galileo to death.

Luckily, the Church was weakening in power, and the Protestant Reformation meant that people now had the power to read the Bible their own way—which actually meant they could ignore parts of the Bible they didn't like. And this is exactly what happened. Scientists like Isaac Newton expanded on Galileo's theories and basically developed modern science as we know it today—and Newton was a heretic. After Newton, few people took the Bible literally, and today almost no Christians believe the sun revolves around the earth, even though this is exactly what the Bible says. Furthermore, most Christians in the world believe in evolution, even though this contradicts the Bible as well.

In other words—the rise of science in the West coincides with the fall of religion. Science only took root when it was allowed to question some of the central claims in the Bible.

Islam is going to have a problem if it does not allow science to do the same with the Quran. For example, evolution is the basis of modern biology and medicine. It is extremely, extremely difficult to practice biology or research medicine without believing in evolution. But evolution contradicts the literal word of the Quran.


I am unaware of any such experiments. Can you provide links?


I don't think this is quite true. European scholastics, under the church, encountered Muslim advances in these areas in the 1200's. But Europe didn't really wrest itself from the dark ages until the 1500's and 1600's, when the scientific revolution happened.

I think Islamic science certainly contributed to the scientific revolution, mostly because it kept the works of Greek philosophers alive.

But I guess it's possible Europeans smelled a bit better after they encountered Islamic advances. :)


Ha, thanks. I do too.

I just don't think it's possible to do science with starting assumptions like the ones you've mentioned. The word "science," as it's used today, refers to a very specific methodology that is based on naturalism—this doesn't necessarily rule out "supernatural" forces, but if it encounters something which appears to contradict known laws (i.e. supernatural) it seeks to understand it by experimentation.

A good example is gravity. Under Isaac Newton, gravity was basically a magical force. Nobody had any idea how it worked, it was almost supernatural. But then Einstein showed precisely how gravity works in combination with space and time, and we had to abandon Newton's worldview for Einstein's. Gravity is still a mysterious force—but as we learn more and more about it, it seems less and less supernatural.

Similarly, science doesn't necessarily rule out the existence of gods. If it ever encounters a phenomenon that resembles a god, scientists will test it and try to form theories around it, and incorporate it into what we already know about the universe. But you see how this is very different from assuming at the outset that a god exists and ignoring anything that contradicts that assumption.

I mean, you could certainly do that, but I don't think it should be called "science."

I have never come across a book that says "fact of evolution" I also know many scientists, who actually reject this theory. I think it was actually from the biologists that claimed that certain organs in our body is irreducibly complex, meaning that it could not have evolved, becuase if one component is missing, the whole organ, for the example the eye, will not function.

Also its intresting you say that these muslims advanced in their sciences because of the greeks, but cand you give any examples? I mean how, or what did they use from the greeks to advance in their sciences, or what science? Any specific example? Not taking any offence, still open minded, but need enough evidence before accepting anything. I also enjoy these discussions.

thanks:sunny:

[kay106]

My prediction: the future of Islam will look much like Christianity looks today. There will still be a few extremists and literalists, but for the most part Muslims will have abandoned the central tenets of their religion for scientific truth and enlightenment morals while clinging to a few traditions and superficial Islamic ideas as a form of identity.

The Muslim population is increasing, but this is largely due to high birth rates and heavy indoctrination of the children of Muslim parents. Muslims aren't really converting anyone to Islam anymore. The conversion trends all favor secularism, with much of Europe and America becoming vastly more secularized even in the space of the last half-century. But secular people, unlike Muslims (and religious Jews and Christians), have fewer kids.

In Europe, Christians had a Protestant Reformation, which in turn fueled a Catholic counter-reformation. But during this time the Europeans were making serious scientific advances which contradicted the literal word of the Bible, which they had been told was the absolute truth. I think the religious flare-ups of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation were, in many ways, responses to scientific advances—Christians were on the defensive, so they became more aggressive and fundamentalist.

I think the exact same thing is happening in the Islamic world today, has been happening since maybe the 1920's when the Muslim world basically got conquered by the secular forces of Europe. Muslims have been on the defensive for almost a century, their religion is contradicted left and right by secular science, and their cultural mores are constantly challenged by a society whose citizens are wealthier and more at peace with each other. So modern Muslims, like the 16th-century Christians, are resisting by forcefully invoking their religion and uniting under its banner. Also like the 16th-century Christians, they are murdering each other left and right over disputes of orthodoxy and heresy.

While Muslim numbers and religious fervor might be increasing, this behavior is simply not sustainable in the long-run. And scientific truth always trumps religious "truth," because ultimately scientific truth is useful—it can make bridges, buildings, bandages and bombs. This is why most Christians believe the earth revolves around the sun, even though the Bible says otherwise—you can only deny scientific truth for so long before everyone laughs you off the world stage.

Do you have any evidence for your theories? I mean you are claiming that there are hardly any conversions, but did you know that after sptember 11 within a span of 10 months, In usa there was 34000 reverts alone, just in the USA forget the rest of Europe.
You are saying that science and religion contradicts, but according to dr maurice bucaille, in his book "the bible the quran and science" he says that there is not a single verse in the quran that contradics with estblished modern science. I think your views are completely distorted.

[kay106]

Ok, I think I need to clarify exactly what I am writing about.

Quite a few people commented that Islam will not change. Maybe the Qur'an and the Hadith will not change but how people interpret the scripture and how they act in accordance to scripture will change. What I want to know is how do you think Muslims will act differently in the coming generations. For example, are more or less Muslims going to join radical elements and participate in terrorist bombings in the future?

A few other people seemed to have a problem with the idea that Islam is going to go in a unified direction in the future. I don't believe that everyone in Islam is going to become more conservative or liberal but I do believe there will be a general trend or shift that is quantifiable and observable in the future. For example, in the past ten years there has been a major shift in America towards evangelical Christianity. That's not to say all Christians are more evangelical now, just that more Christians are evangelical in the way they practice their faith.

Basically what I'm looking for is the answer to two questions. Is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more or less radical (primarily referring to radicalism as a violent movement) and is Islam (or Muslims in general) going to become more conservative or more liberal in the future?

I really dont think there is such thing as islamic terrorism, this is a hype and anti muslim propaganda. Just check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTbbwgaAl20

[barney]

I think these East-West technology Bigging up discussions are fruitless.

We've seen a lot of em on the boards and they follow the same pattern.

"We invented computors!"
"Yeah well we invented algebra"
"No you diddnt it was the indians"
"well we invented the astrolabe"
"Great...anything since 1600?"
"Yeah...the Aeroplane in 1632"
"Well ok; so what makes that an Islamic invention...surely its a invention that happened to be made by a muslim?"
" It's inspired by Islams directions to seek knowlage"
" Well, why have 95% or more of modern inventions been western"
"Because we dont have an islamic state"
"But you did...back in 1630 and thats why you were pumping out great new ideas"
"Yes, and when that time comes again, Islam will take its rightful leading role in science"
"Y'know religion stunts creativity, not encourages it...look at the libary of Alexan.....[SNIP] Thread closed.

Great, I've just saved everyone time by compressing the next 200 posts into this one

[kay106]

http://by112w.bay112.mail.live.com/m...13&n=868374548 - Also guys check this out, another anti muslim propaganda. Somtimes cant wait till judgement day, see all those kafirs get taken down. the point is that, is there such thing as islamic terrorism, i mean islamists terrorising civilians? or is the muslims being terrorised?

[kay106]

I think these East-West technology Bigging up discussions are fruitless.

We've seen a lot of em on the boards and they follow the same pattern.

"We invented computors!"
"Yeah well we invented algebra"
"No you diddnt it was the indians"
"well we invented the astrolabe"
"Great...anything since 1600?"
"Yeah...the Aeroplane in 1632"
"Well ok; so what makes that an Islamic invention...surely its a invention that happened to be made by a muslim?"
" It's inspired by Islams directions to seek knowlage"
" Well, why have 95% or more of modern inventions been western"
"Because we dont have an islamic state"
"But you did...back in 1630 and thats why you were pumping out great new ideas"
"Yes, and when that time comes again, Islam will take its rightful leading role in science"
"Y'know religion stunts creativity, not encourages it...look at the libary of Alexan.....[SNIP] Thread closed.

Great, I've just saved everyone time by compressing the next 200 posts into this one

If you go to a muslim reading the quran, ask him to explain to you what he/she is reading, generally those muslims wont be able to, thats is why i really think that we muslims today are down, simply becuase we are not following our religion properly, but people are waking up, including a lot of non muslims, almost everyweek i go to the main mosque, i see a person taking the shahada!

[kay106]

oops wrong site here it is:


http://www.ahlelbayt.com/articles/current-events/qatif - Also guys check this out, another anti muslim propaganda. Somtimes cant wait till judgement day, see all those kafirs get taken down. the point is that, is there such thing as islamic terrorism, i mean islamists terrorising civilians? or is the muslims being terrorised?

[kay106]

http://by112w.bay112.mail.live.com/m...13&n=868374548 - Also guys check this out, another anti muslim propaganda. Somtimes cant wait till judgement day, see all those kafirs get taken down. the point is that, is there such thing as islamic terrorism, i mean islamists terrorising civilians? or is the muslims being terrorised?

apologie to all you guys in this forum, not calling anyone a kafir here, but only to the people who causing mass murders. otherwise i dont wish hell for anyone.

[Alim Apprentice]

I think these East-West technology Bigging up discussions are fruitless.

We've seen a lot of em on the boards and they follow the same pattern.

"We invented computors!"
"Yeah well we invented algebra"
"No you diddnt it was the indians"
"well we invented the astrolabe"
"Great...anything since 1600?"
"Yeah...the Aeroplane in 1632"
"Well ok; so what makes that an Islamic invention...surely its a invention that happened to be made by a muslim?"
" It's inspired by Islams directions to seek knowlage"
" Well, why have 95% or more of modern inventions been western"
"Because we dont have an islamic state"
"But you did...back in 1630 and thats why you were pumping out great new ideas"
"Yes, and when that time comes again, Islam will take its rightful leading role in science"
"Y'know religion stunts creativity, not encourages it...look at the libary of Alexan.....[SNIP] Thread closed.

Great, I've just saved everyone time by compressing the next 200 posts into this one

haha! :okay: Bro, thats a pretty good point you brought up. However, I'm sure some of us are unaware or ignorant of some facts, so we learn new things through this way. Of course, we "choose" what is fact or fiction. Things we accept on depends on our worldviews and philosophies, and a nice thing about this forum is that members with different worldviews chip in their perspectives. Thats what discussions are for, right? I sure hope this thread wont be closed *gulp* Everyone, lets keep our discussions on track and civilised, ok? ;)

In other words—the rise of science in the West coincides with the fall of religion. Science only took root when it was allowed to question some of the central claims in the Bible.

I suppose that's true, but not in Islam's case. Theres a positive relationship between religion and science. And as Kay106 has mentioned, "evolution" itself is a doubtful thing. Can you mention some other examples which the science in Quran conflicts with other modern scientific concepts?

You made a great point about how Newtonian physics were made a bit redundant when Einstein came along. And im pretty sure Einstein's theories will be made so too in the future (by a Muslim scientist, inshallah :P).

I mean, you could certainly do that, but I don't think it should be called "science."

"Science" in its modern form was defined by Ibn al-Haytham in the 11th century. That's the Scientifc Method that all scientists do in laboratories and such. Im sure you all remember your science labs back in school.. we have to type up those dreaded reports with specific formats: statement of problem, hypothesis, test the hypothesis with experiments then extrapolate the stuff you discovered with an analysis. Its all credited to that scholar!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_al-Haytham

Of course, I don't think many would the word of wikipedia :p The more trusting sources are in books, which are at times difficult to procure over the internet. If you have a library nearbly that has collections of Islamic science, you are bound to come across references to Ibn Al Haytham, especially by the works of Roger Bacon.

Ah darn, gotta rush to class.

[Qingu]

I have never come across a book that says "fact of evolution"

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

I also know many scientists, who actually reject this theory.

Really? What are their names? What are their fields of specialty? Any published articles in peer-reviewed journals?

I think it was actually from the biologists that claimed that certain organs in our body is irreducibly complex,

You're referring to a single biochemist, Michael Behe, and his intelligent design movement.

His irreducable complexity claim has been debunked numerous times, most significantly in the recent court case about intelligent design in Dover, Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District

becuase if one component is missing, the whole organ, for the example the eye, will not function.

Demonstrably not true. There are many examples of functional eyes with less components throughout the animal kingdom, from photosensitive spots of tissue on primitive invertebrates.

Also its intresting you say that these muslims advanced in their sciences because of the greeks, but cand you give any examples? I mean how, or what did they use from the greeks to advance in their sciences, or what science? Any specific example?

There are plenty. They took a lot from Aristotle (just like the Christians did), specifically his systems of logic and organization.

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H002

Translations of the Greek physician, Galen, also helped spur Islamic development of medicine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_medicine

Again, this isn't to say that Muslims didn't develop and expand from these Greek thinkers, but they certainly took a lot from them. Everyone did.

[Qingu]

Do you have any evidence for your theories? I mean you are claiming that there are hardly any conversions, but did you know that after sptember 11 within a span of 10 months, In usa there was 34000 reverts alone, just in the USA forget the rest of Europe.

Wow! That's almost one-hundredth of one percent of the total population of the United States!

Do you know what the fastest growing religion in America is? Wicca. 750,000 followers!

"Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

Anyway, do you have any independent source for your 34,000 statistic, other than CAIR? That's the only source I've been able to find on the internet, and it seems awfully biased to me.

You are saying that science and religion contradicts, but according to dr maurice bucaille, in his book "the bible the quran and science" he says that there is not a single verse in the quran that contradics with estblished modern science.

Of course it does! For example, Surah 86:6 says that semen comes from between the ribs and the back.

See also the claim that there was a global flood, that a deity created each animal from water, that humans were created from clay, and that there is a race of invisible creatures made from smokeless fire.

I think your views are completely distorted.

That's probably because you're not used to questioning your assumptions.

[Qingu]

I suppose that's true, but not in Islam's case. Theres a positive relationship between religion and science.

There is? In what parallel universe? Why are the most scientifically advanced and educated countries secular?

And as Kay106 has mentioned, "evolution" itself is a doubtful thing.

Not according to 99+% of biologists.

You made a great point about how Newtonian physics were made a bit redundant when Einstein came along. And im pretty sure Einstein's theories will be made so too in the future (by a Muslim scientist, inshallah :P).

Then Muslims better start learning physics at a much higher rate than they are now.

"Science" in its modern form was defined by Ibn al-Haytham in the 11th century. That's the Scientifc Method that all scientists do in laboratories and such.

This is the problem with Wikipedia, it's generally accurate but not when you want to get down to the nitty-gritty. Aristotle formulated most elements of the scientific method about a 1000 years before al-Haytham.

Al-Haytham was certainly important, and he greatly influenced many European philosophers. Apparently, moreso than he influenced Muslim thinkers!

[kay106]

Wow! That's almost one-hundredth of one percent of the total population of the United States!

Do you know what the fastest growing religion in America is? Wicca. 750,000 followers!

"Numbers of adherents went from 8,000 in 1990 to 134,000 in 2001. Their numbers of adherents are doubling about every 30 months."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

Anyway, do you have any independent source for your 34,000 statistic, other than CAIR? That's the only source I've been able to find on the internet, and it seems awfully biased to me.


Of course it does! For example, Surah 86:6 says that semen comes from between the ribs and the back.

See also the claim that there was a global flood, that a deity created each animal from water, that humans were created from clay, and that there is a race of invisible creatures made from smokeless fire.


That's probably because you're not used to questioning your assumptions.

Your link to your article is again full of theories, assumptions not any proof, evidence, just like you are giving us, why dont you go to www.harunyahya.com this site has solid proof, example it shows you fossils that are million of years old, if specifies have evolved, they would have contained different forms, such as intermediate forms. There is a fossil of a star fish that is about 300 million years old, this starfish on the fossil is exactly the same as todays startfish, if things were evolving this starfish would have been shalf a star fish and half something else, do we see any of that?

I am questioning your assumptions, because i dont think you know how to ask the right questions.

[kay106]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUbzJMQwoN0 - Cnn 1.5 million reverts since 9/11!

[kay106]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


Really? What are their names? What are their fields of specialty? Any published articles in peer-reviewed journals?


You're referring to a single biochemist, Michael Behe, and his intelligent design movement.

His irreducable complexity claim has been debunked numerous times, most significantly in the recent court case about intelligent design in Dover, Pennsylvania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District


Demonstrably not true. There are many examples of functional eyes with less components throughout the animal kingdom, from photosensitive spots of tissue on primitive invertebrates.


There are plenty. They took a lot from Aristotle (just like the Christians did), specifically his systems of logic and organization.

http://www.muslimphilosophy.com/ip/rep/H002

Translations of the Greek physician, Galen, also helped spur Islamic development of medicine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_medicine

Again, this isn't to say that Muslims didn't develop and expand from these Greek thinkers, but they certainly took a lot from them. Everyone did.

"Really? What are their names? What are their fields of specialty? Any published articles in peer-reviewed journals? "

"Michael J. Behe, Ph.D. Professor Biochemistry. Department of Biological Sciences Iacocca Hall, Room D-221 111" Micheal behe is a biologist, you want more names go to www.harunyah.com and do your own research and think and reason! Not think and believe whatever you perceive to be true, but verify by gaining proof!

[kay106]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District - This site you have given Quingu simply says that they wont allow intellligent design to be taught in classrooms, this doesn't proove that irreducibly complexity is false, anyway you mentioned that "There are many examples of functional eyes with less components throughout the animal kingdom, from photosensitive spots of tissue on primitive invertebrates. " Can you give just one example agreed upon by the scientific community?

[Bittersteel]

I think these East-West technology Bigging up discussions are fruitless.

We've seen a lot of em on the boards and they follow the same pattern.

"We invented computors!"
"Yeah well we invented algebra"
"No you diddnt it was the indians"
"well we invented the astrolabe"
"Great...anything since 1600?"
"Yeah...the Aeroplane in 1632"
"Well ok; so what makes that an Islamic invention...surely its a invention that happened to be made by a muslim?"
" It's inspired by Islams directions to seek knowlage"
" Well, why have 95% or more of modern inventions been western"
"Because we dont have an islamic state"
"But you did...back in 1630 and thats why you were pumping out great new ideas"
"Yes, and when that time comes again, Islam will take its rightful leading role in science"
"Y'know religion stunts creativity, not encourages it...look at the libary of Alexan.....[SNIP] Thread closed.

Great, I've just saved everyone time by compressing the next 200 posts into this one

haha,yes you put it very nicely.BTW,not to backseat moderate but aren't we deviating a bit.

[Qingu]

"Really? What are their names? What are their fields of specialty? Any published articles in peer-reviewed journals? "

"Michael J. Behe, Ph.D. Professor Biochemistry. Department of Biological Sciences Iacocca Hall, Room D-221 111" Micheal behe is a biologist, you want more names go to www.harunyah.com and do your own research and think and reason! Not think and believe whatever you perceive to be true, but verify by gaining proof!

The only reason Behe is still a "biologist" is because he has tenure. As I said, his work is widely discredited among biologists, who consider Intelligent Design a fraud for Creationism.

You also failed to point to any peer-reviewed articles on the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmil...chool_District - This site you have given Quingu simply says that they wont allow intellligent design to be taught in classrooms, this doesn't proove that irreducibly complexity is false,

You should read the transcripts of the court case. Behe's hypothesis was essentially put on trial, and a number of scientists supplied scientific evidence that his ideas are nonsense. The judge—a Christian Republican—agreed with the scientists, characterizing the ID movement as dishonest.

anyway you mentioned that "There are many examples of functional eyes with less components throughout the animal kingdom, from photosensitive spots of tissue on primitive invertebrates. " Can you give just one example agreed upon by the scientific community?

Every single invertebrate eye? This isn't exactly controversial, Kay.

Do you know what an invertebrate is?

Edit: since this isn't a thread on Evolution, I suggest we cut off discussion here and move it to another thread of your choosing, if you'd like to continue discussing it.

The point I am trying to make here is that the vast, vast majority of scientists—95% overall, and 99+% of biologists—accept evolution as scientific fact, and Islam's rejection of this theory makes Muslims a laughingstock of the scientific world. Muslims can attempt to co-opt the weak Christian objections to evolution in the form of creationism and intelligent design, but these positions are demonstrably not science. Since evolution is directly linked to our advances in biology, genomics, and medicine, Islam's rejection of it is a major reason why Islam lags so far behind Western civilization.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

"Michael J. Behe, Ph.D. Professor Biochemistry. Department of Biological Sciences Iacocca Hall, Room D-221 111" Micheal behe is a biologist, you want more names go to www.harunyah.com and do your own research and think and reason! Not think and believe whatever you perceive to be true, but verify by gaining proof!

Harun Yahya and Michael Behe? You can do better than that, surely?

That's about as effective as me saying "Um, atheism is true, and I know this because I have it on reasonably good authority that Bart Simpson is an atheist".

Peace

[Alim Apprentice]

haha,yes you put it very nicely.BTW,not to backseat moderate but aren't we deviating a bit.

Well.. thats possible. We were discussion about the inherent nature of science in Islam. I suppose we shouldn't go overboard about who did what first (or about evolution). What I wanted to stress to my friend Qingu was that Islam AND Science go hand in hand (in the same universe, mind you ;)).
But, just for a moment:

Since evolution is directly linked to our advances in biology, genomics, and medicine, Islam's rejection of it is a major reason why Islam lags so far behind Western civilization.

you made it sound like its the ultimate fact! Im sure a "civilization" is more encompassing than the things you've mentioned *grin* I dont think they could qualify as the major reasons why we lag behind, but I'll ask a muslim doctor about that. Oh by the way, is the belief of evolution a prereq to become a biologist? I heard one got unemployed because he didnt believe in it..

*ahem* Getting back on track. It may not be apparent in today's world, but concerned muslim intellectuals are putting an effort to see the revival of Islamic Science in the future (for example, Abdus Salam, Ziauddin Sardar etc). What we are facing now is a gap of few hundred years from the Islamic Golden era and today. Muslim countries are still reeling the effects of colonialism and are now trying to develop their science and technology. Malaysia, for example, is heavily developing their applied R&D.

Just a note about what Islamic Science is. In brief, its a different methodology/philosophy of science, not a science itself.

We have the Western secular approach, which stresses on instrumental rationality. Unfortunately, some prominent muslim scientists in the past were pretty influnced by Hellenic philosophy, and had tried to cover it up with "falsafah". But thats a debate for another time ;)

One other approach, the Islamic way, would keep in mind that Allah is the All knower and the creater of the universe. Also, the Islamic ethics and ideals guide the scholar. Any knowledge that is against Islam is not used. What isnt against Islam would benefit mankind in general, so it's not viewed as a restriction for muslim scientists to do things the betterment of others. Ibn Al- Haytham always stated in his works about the importance of faith, and what resulted was an amazing work on optics. (By the way, Al-Haytham's approach to scientific method differs from Aristotle. I believe debates about the approaches still goes on?) I just summarized all this in one paragraph, but there are many books detailing this approach.

As Ziauddin Sardar quotes from a group of scientists in the introduction of his book called Explorations of Islamic Science (a darn good book I got last night from the library):

Under Islam, science is subservient to the goals of society. The goals of an Islamic society are to increase brotherhood, reduce consumption and increase spiritual awareness. A science with these goals has to be different in nature and style from science as it is practiced today. Furthermore, these goals cannot be pursued by any means. They can only be pursued by those goals which are permitted by Islam

and later in his book, he wrote:

Every creation of God is equally important as the subject of study, and each step forward in understanding and appreciating His creation brings man closer to God. In no other civilization has there been a more complete synthesis of science and religion.

It is this all embracing emphasis on the unity of science and religion, knowledge and values, physics and metaphysics, which gives Islamic Science its unique character.

As such, Islamic Science is subjectively objective; that is, it seeks subjective goals within an objective framework. The subjective goals include seeking the pleasure of Allah, the interests of the community, promotion of such eternal Islamic values as adl (justice), ibadah (worship) and khilafah (man's trusteeship). This contrasts sharply with naive inquiry that is based on emotions, dogma and prejudices. Islamic science has nothing to do with the magic and the occult: it does not seek to introduce anarchy and dogmatism into the pursuit of knowledge, neither does it seek to impose the method of one discipline on to another.

Islamic science ... seeks a total understanding of reality. It is thus a very holistic enterprise.

Do you see why many Islamic scientists were polymath? :)

If possible, you should get you hands on a book called , by him.

http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/ocl...=brief_results

^ It appears its not available on Amazon.com yet.. but the link above seems to be pretty useful to see which library in your area has a copy of it.

I'll just reiterate my main point that Islam and science have a positive relationship. For Islam to have a good future, it's main catalyst would be the revival of Islamic sciences (without the falsafah or gnostic influnces). As one of my friends in uni had said: we need more Islamic intellectuals (whether they are scientist, economists, lawyers etc) to reach a certain critical mass before that can happen, inshallah :)

I hope our buddy Elishar takes in the different perspectives we have so far regarding the Future of Islam. Good luck! :thumbs_up

[Shukri]

I do not think that one can tell you how his/her religion can change in future generation. In my opinion Islam will not change. It is the muslims (people) who will change.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

What I wanted to stress to my friend Qingu was that Islam AND Science go hand in hand (in the same universe, mind you ;)).

The huge disparity between technological advances in the Muslim world and elsewhere would seem to show the opposite.

you made it sound like its the ultimate fact!

It's the most far-reaching and powerfully explanatory theory that I know of. Can you think of a scientific theory that beats it in those terms?

Oh by the way, is the belief of evolution a prereq to become a biologist? I heard one got unemployed because he didnt believe in it..

Since modern biology is pretty much entirely based on evolutionary theory, it would be a bit like having a mathematician who refused to believe in addition.

Just a note about what Islamic Science is. In brief, its a different methodology/philosophy of science, not a science itself.

Is there anything scientific about it?

Unfortunately, some prominent muslim scientists in the past were pretty influnced by Hellenic philosophy, and had tried to cover it up with "falsafah".

There's nothing unfortunate about being influenced by Greek philosophy! We have the Muslims to thank for preserving pretty much all the extant texts from the Ancient Greeks. I think that's one of the most praiseworthy contributions that Muslims have made to world culture, and we in the West should be eternally grateful for it.

As one of my friends in uni had said: we need more Islamic intellectuals (whether they are scientist, economists, lawyers etc) to reach a certain critical mass before that can happen, inshallah :)

I agree. Prominent Islamic intellectuals are needed desperately. The average representative of Islam in the contemporary media does not come across well, I have to say.

Although I believe Islam is wrong in many respects, I support people's right to believe what they want. I would like to see Islam united, with a central authority, so that we could perhaps forget the situation we have today, where the religion just lurches from one public relations disaster to another.

Peace

[Alim Apprentice]

The huge disparity between technological advances in the Muslim world and elsewhere would seem to show the opposite.

The disparity is the result of multiple consequences, both internally and externally. However, that doesnt mean Islam and Science cant mix. Why do you all persist we are ALL luddites? haha

It's the most far-reaching and powerfully explanatory theory that I know of. Can you think of a scientific theory that beats it in those terms?

Ah.. Im not sure how a scientific theory can explain the "lagging" of Islam behind Western Civilization. Unless of course, you meant in terms of Medicine?

Since modern biology is pretty much entirely based on evolutionary theory, it would be a bit like having a mathematician who refused to believe in addition.

haha, my friend.. I merely asked that question with a slight tinge of sarcasm, in response to:

Not according to 99+% of biologists.

Not to jest you, Qingu.

Is there anything scientific about it?

I meant the ethics and values surrounding the way you seek knowledge, not a science itself. Its an approach. I believe I have mentioned about it in my last post.

There's nothing unfortunate about being influenced by Greek philosophy!

Of course, but some are influenced to the extent that it clouds their own faith. Knowledge of all kinds are embraced, but within limits.

We have the Muslims to thank for preserving pretty much all the extant texts from the Ancient Greeks. I think that's one of the most praiseworthy contributions that Muslims have made to world culture, and we in the West should be eternally grateful for it.

Well buddy, you are a rare kind indeed ;) But it doesn't stop there. Muslim scholars did more than just preserving. The Hellenic texts on their own might be cool and all, but the countless contributions from the Muslim scholars, whether they are commentaries of those texts or original contributions (more so towards the latter) are the stuff the West should thank and recognize more, Inshallah.

I agree. Prominent Islamic intellectuals are needed desperately. The average representative of Islam in the contemporary media does not come across well, I have to say.

Yes, lots of misconceptions were caused by the "contemporary media" :)

Although I believe Islam is wrong in many respects, I support people's right to believe what they want. I would like to see Islam united, with a central authority, so that we could perhaps forget the situation we have today, where the religion just lurches from one public relations disaster to another.

Indeed.. we are striving for the revival of the Ummah. Thanks for the support!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

The disparity is the result of multiple consequences, both internally and externally. However, that doesnt mean Islam and Science cant mix. Why do you all persist we are ALL luddites? haha

Of course not. I know several Muslims who are very talented when it comes to science. I do think, though, that the religion tends restrict the pursuit of knowledge in a way that is unhelpful.

Ah.. Im not sure how a scientific theory can explain the "lagging" of Islam behind Western Civilization. Unless of course, you meant in terms of Medicine?

I just meant explanatory power in general, in that evolution explains why there are so many different species, and why a particular species prospers in a particular environment, among many other things. I wasn't referring to the notion that Islamic culture lags behind Western culture when I made this particular comment. To explain that I think you might need to start by contrasting Islamic thinking with Enlightenment thinking.

I meant the ethics and values surrounding the way you seek knowledge, not a science itself. Its an approach. I believe I have mentioned about it in my last post.

I don't really understand what is scientific about it, so perhaps you can explain a little more. Ethics certainly isn't scientific by any stretch of the imagination.

Of course, but some are influenced to the extent that it clouds their own faith. Knowledge of all kinds are embraced, but within limits.

And that is precisely the problem. Science that has to function within limits that are set for no logical reason ceases to be science.

Well buddy, you are a rare kind indeed ;) But it doesn't stop there. Muslim scholars did more than just preserving. The Hellenic texts on their own might be cool and all, but the countless contributions from the Muslim scholars, whether they are commentaries of those texts or original contributions (more so towards the latter) are the stuff the West should thank and recognize more, Inshallah.

Hmm...not sure about that. There have certainly been some outstanding Muslim intellectuals in the past, but even they can't eclipse the achievements of the Greeks.

Yes, lots of misconceptions were caused by the "contemporary media" :)

Quite honestly, I think that the weakness of current prominent Muslim 'intellectuals' has more to do with it than any media plot.

Indeed.. we are striving for the revival of the Ummah. Thanks for the support!

I'm glad to give it, and I sincerely hope that Muslims can work with each other and with outsiders in order to extricate themselves from the horrible mess they currently find themselves in.

Peace

[جوري]

I am not sure where he got the 'modern biology' based on evolution bit? must be talkin out of his ***. My undergrad was in molecular bio, evolution hardly got a chapter and a half. Go ahead and visit any university website here in the states and have a looksy at their curriculum.
What a joke, this English teacher speaking on behalf of the entire scientific community and with such gusto!

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I am not sure where he got the 'modern biology' based on evolution bit? must be talkin out of his ***. My undergrad was in molecular bio, evolution hardly got a chapter and a half. Go ahead and visit any university website here in the states and have a looksy at their curriculum.
What a joke, this English teacher speaking on behalf of the entire scientific community and with such gusto!

PA: Thanks for your interest. Your support is always etc.

Peace

[czgibson]

Edit: double post.

[جوري]

Greetings,


PA: Thanks for your interest. It's always nice to hear your thoughts. Your support is always etc.

Peace

your blasé indifference is really getting to me, there are however, forum rules against taking up webspace on nonsense and spreading muck!
Again until you have something of substance to impart I suggest you take a hike!

cheers

[Cognescenti]

The evidence for Evolution is so compelling in my opinion that there are only two explanations:

1) Darwin pretty much got it right.

or

2) God deliberately planted the evidence as a prank or some kind of test of faith.




BTW....everything is OK between the Catholic Church and Copernicus now. The last Pope apologized to him....well, strictly, it was more of an admission of error on the part of the Church as opposed to an apology.

[جوري]

here is an excellent paper on evolution
http://www.iscid.org/papers/Mullan_P...ell_112302.pdf
the probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth. I think anyone who has done some basic science not even on a graduate level can see where 'darwin' et al. have erred. This topic has been covered extensively and really belongs to health and sci. thus I leave it here for the Muslims who have a brain cell left unlike some whose remianing cells unfortunately are held together by spirochetes.

I really hate to rehash recycled topics, but for those who have a poor ability to understand or to profit from experience its worth a repeat!


cheers!

[جوري]

The future of Islam can be summed up in this

Said the Holy Prophet PBUH:

"You will invade the Arabian Peninsula and God will grant it. Then Persia and God will grant it. Then you shall invade Ar-Rum (Europe) and God will grant it. Then you shall attack the Antichrist and God shall give him to you"The Messenger of God was then asked "which of the two cities will be conquered first - Constantinople or Rome?" and the Holy Prophet PBUH replied : " The city of Heraclius (Constantinople) will be conquered FIRST"

Prophethood (meaning himself) will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to
remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will
be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood remaining with you for as
long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it
up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [Umayyad, Abbasids, Ottomans etc]
rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah
wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule
(current nationalistic secular and totalitarian governments) and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain.
Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise
it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood." Then he fell silent.


"The Caliphate will remain in my nation after me for thirty years (included Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali and Hassan and Hussain) . Then, it
will be a monarchy after that (Ummayad, Abbasids, Ottomans etc) ."
"Therefore, hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly
guided Caliphs, hold it between your front teeth! And beware of
innovations (in the religion), for every innovation is a bid'ah, and every
bid'ah is a deviation, and every deviation is in the Fire."

"if you see that the
Caliphate has taken its abode in the holy land, then the earthquake, the tribulations and great events are at hand, and
the Last Hour on that day will be closer to people than my hand is to your head."

"There will be an oath of allegiance according to
guidance in Jerusalem."

"You will fight the unbelievers
until the remnant of you fights on the River Jordan, you to the east of it and they to the west of it."

"God Almighty will enable you to conquer Syria after
my death, from Al- 'Arish to the Euphrates. Their men and women will be garrisoned until the Day of Judgement.
Whoever from among you chooses one of the coasts of Syria or Jerusalem is in the sacred struggle (jihad) until the
Day of Judgement"

"Day of Judgment will come...

* When it will be regarded as a shame to act on Quranic injunctions.
* When untrustworthy people will be regarded as trustworthy and the trustworthy will be regarded as untrustworthy.
* When it will be hot in winter (and vice versa).
* When the length of days is stretched, i.e. a journey of a few days is covered in a matter of hours.
* When orators and lecturers lie openly.
* When people dispute over petty issues.
* When women with children come displeased on account of them bearing offspring, and barren women remain happy on
account of having no responsibility of offspring.
* When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
* When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
* When lies prevail over the truth.
* When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
* When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
* When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them
and are satisfied with their findings, then such persons will not smell the fragrance of Jannat.
* When the offspring become a cause of grief and anger (for their parents). * when writing will be widespread



"The Day of Judgment will not come until :

* Music and musical instruments will be found in every home.
* People will indulge in homosexuality.
* There will be an abundance of illegitimate children.
* There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
* People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
* Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business
establishments.
* The Masjid will be decorated, but the hearts of the people will be devoid of guidance.
* The courtyards of Masjids will be built beautifully and high mimbars (pulpits) will be erected.
* Gangsters and evil people will prevail.
* Various wines will be consumed excessively.

"Count six things before the advent of the Day of Judgment :

1 My death
2 The conquest of Jerusalem
3 Mass deaths amongst you people, just as when sheep die in large numbers during an epidemic
4 Abundance of wealth to such an extent that if a person were to be given a hundred Dinars he will still not be satisfied
5 General anarchy and bloodshed, that no Arab household will be spared from it
6 Then a life of peace as a result of a peace agreement between you and the Banil Asfaar
(Romans) which they will break and attack you with a force consisting of eighty flags and under each flag will be an army of
twelve thousand men."

"The Hour will not come until :

*The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Adultery and fornication will be prevalent (The Prophet, peace be upon him, said that this has never happened without new
diseases befalling the people, which their ancestors had not known.) (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Adultery and fornication will be performed in the open
*The consumption of intoxicants will be widespread (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Women will outnumber men......eventually 50:1 (Bukhari & Muslim)
*Killing, killing, killing (Bukhari & Muslim)
*The children will be filled with rage (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Rain will be acidic or burning (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Children of fornication will become widespread or prevalent (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*When a trust becomes a means of making a profit
*Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor
*Paying zakat becomes a burden and miserliness becomes widespread
*When a man obeys his wife and disobeys his mother; and treats his friend kindly while shunning his father
*When voices are raised in the mosques
*People will walk in the marketplace with their thighs exposed
*Great distances will be traversed in short spans of time
*The people of Iraq will recieve no food and no money due to oppression by the Romans (Europeans) (Muslim)
*People will hop between the clouds and the earth
*The leader of a people will be the worst of them
*People will treat a man with respect out of fear for some evil he might do
*Men will begin to wear silk
*Female singers and musical instruments will become popular
*People will dance late into the night
*When the last ones of the Ummah begin to curse the first ones
*People will believe in the stars
*People will reject al-Qadr (the Divine Decree of Destiny)
*Time will pass rapidly (Bukhari)
*Good deeds will decrease (Bukhari)
*Miserliness will be thrown into the hearts of people (Bukhari)
*Smog will appear over cities because of the evil that they are doing
*People will be carrying on with their trade, but their will only be a few trustworthy persons
*A man will pass by a grave and wish that he was in their place
*Earthquakes will increase
*The appearance of false messengers (30 dajjals)
*Women will be naked in spite of being dressed
*The conquest of Constantinople by the Muslims
*When the sheperds of black camels start boasting and begin to compete with others in the construction of taller buildings
(Bukhari)
*Wild animals will be able to talk to humans
*A man will leave his home and his thigh or hip will tell him what is happening back at his home
*The truthful person will not be believed and the liar will be believed
*When men lie with men and women lie with women
*Trade will become so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business
*A woman will enter the workforce out of love for this world
*Books will be widespread and knowledge will be low
*Arrogance will increase in the earth (at-Tabarani, al-Hakim)
*Family ties will be cut
*Men will begin to look like women and women will begin to look like men

'Soon the people of IRAQ will
neither receive any food (grain) nor any money.'" We asked, "Why would such a thing happen?" He replied, "Because of the
non-Arabs." (i.e they will prevent food from going into Iraq, in the form of "sanctions" to this day.) He then said: "Soon the people of
Shaam (SYRIA) will neither receive any money nor grain." We asked as to why this would happen. He replied: "Because of the
Romans (christians)."

"The Hour will not be established till two big groups fight each other whereupon there will
be a great number of casualties on both sides and they will be following one and the same religion"

" Allah drew the ends of the world together for my sake. I have seen its
eastern and western ends. The dominion of my nation will reach those ends which have been drawn together
near me and I have been granted the red and the white treasures. I begged my Lord that my Ummah should not
be destroyed by famine, nor be dominated by a foreign enemy who will take their lives and destroy them root and
branch. My Lord said: Muhammad, whenever I make a decision, there is none to change it. Well, I grant you that your
Ummah will not be destroyed by famine, nor will it be dominated by a foreign enemy who will take their lives and
destroy them root and branch, even if all the people from the different parts of the world join hands together (for
this purpose). However, it will be from amongst them, viz. your Ummah, that some people will kill or imprison the
others. "

"Iraq would withhold its dirhams and qafiz; Syria would withhold its
mudd and dinar and Egypt would withhold its irdab and dinar and you would recoil to that position from where
you started and you would recoil to that position from where you started and you would recoil to the position
from where you started (i.e in Arabia) "

"The Last Hour would come (when) the Romans (West/Christians) would form a
majority amongst people (or be dominant amongst the world)."

"By Him in Whose Hand is my life, a time would come when the
murderer would not know why he has committed the murder, and the victim would not know why he has been
killed. "

"There would be in the last (phase) of the time a caliph who would
distribute wealth but would not count. "

"The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against
the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a
stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him."

"The Antichrist would be followed by seventy thousand Jews of Isfahan (Iran)"

The Prophet stood on his pulpit in Medina and faced the East and said:

"Afflictions will verily emerge from here, where the top of Satan's head will appear"

"Verily , the Satan has lost all hopes that the worshippers
would ever worship him in the peninsula of Arabia, but he is hopeful that he would sow the seed of dissension
amongst them. "

"God will raise for this(muslim) community at the end of every hundred years the
one who will renovate its religion for it. "

"The building of the Bayt-al-Maqdis (in Jerusalem) will be followed by the destruction of Yathrib (Medina) which will be followed by a fierce battle, which will be followed by the conquest of Constantinople, which will be followed by the appearance of the AntiChrist". Then he put his hand on the thigh of the one with whom he was speaking and said : " This is true as the fact that you are sitting here"

"The Great war, the conquest of Constantinople and the appearnce of the Antichrist will all happen within 7 months. "

"The people will soon summon one another to attack you as people
when eating invite others to share their dish. Someone asked: Will that be because of our small numbers at that
time? He replied: No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be scum and rubbish like that carried down
by a torrent, and Allah will take fear of you from the breasts of your enemy and last enervation into your hearts.
Someone asked: What is wahn (enervation). Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him): He replied: Love of the
world and dislike of death. "

"When bloody wars break out, God will send an army of the mawali (Non-Arabs)
whose horses and weapons are superior to the best of the Arabs' horses and
weapons. Through them God will strengthen the religion of Islam."

"The place of assembly of the Muslims at the time of the war will be in
al-Ghutah near a city called Damascus, one of the best cities in Syria. "

"The Last Hour will not come before there come forth thirty Dajjals
(fraudulents), everyone presuming himself that he is an apostle of Allah. "

"When the people see a wrongdoer and
do not prevent him, Allah will soon punish them all."

"enjoin one another to do what is good and forbid one another to do what is evil.
But when you see niggardliness being obeyed, passion being followed, worldly interests being preferred, everyone
being charmed with his opinion, then care for yourself, and leave alone what people in general are doing; for
ahead of you are days which will require endurance, in which showing endurance will be like grasping live coals.
The one who acts rightly during that period will have the reward of fifty men who act as he does. "

"If only one day of this time (world) remained, Allah would raise up a
man from my family who would fill this earth with justice as it has been filled with oppression. "

"This world will not come to
an end until one person from my progeny does not rule over the Arabs, and his name will be the same as my
name."

"Al Mahdi will be from my
progeny. His forehead will be broad and his nose will be high. He will fill the world with justice and fairness at a
time when the world will be filled with oppression. He will rule for seven years."

" After the death of a Ruler
there will be some dispute between the people. At that time a citizen of Madina will flee (from Madinah) and go to
Makkah. While in Makkah, certain people will approach him between Hajrul Aswad (sacred black stone on the
kaaba)and Maqaame Ibraheem (position of Abraham in the sacred Grand Mosque of Mecca), and forcefully
pledge their allegiance to him.
Thereafter a huge army will proceed from Syria to attack him but when they will be at Baida, which is between
Makkah and Madina, they will be swallowed into the ground.
On seeing this, the Abdaals of Syria as well as large numbers of people from Iraq will come to him and pledge their
allegiance to him. Then a person from the Quraish, whose uncle will be from the Bani Kalb tribe will send an army
to attack him, only to be overpowered, by the will of Allah. This (defeated) army will be that of the Bani Kalb.
Unfortunate indeed is he who does not receive a share from the booty of the Kalb. This person (Imam Mahdi) will
distribute the spoils of war after the battle. He will lead the people according to the Sunnat and during his reign
Islam will spread throughout the world. He will remain till seven years (since his emergence). He will pass away and
the Muslims will perform his Janazah salaat (funeral prayers)."

"There will be four peace
agreements between you and the Romans (the Western powers). The fourth agreement will be mediated through a
person who will be from the progeny of Hadhrat Aaron (that is will be from the priestly Levite tribe of Israel) (A.S.)
and will be upheld for seven years."
The people asked: "O Rasulullah (Prophet Muhammad), who will be the Imaam of the people at the time?"
Rasulullah (Prophet Muhammad) said: "He will be from my progeny and will be forty years of age. His face will
shine like a star and he will have a black spot on his left cheek. He will don two "Qutwaani" cloaks and will appear
exactly as a person from the Bani Israeel (Children of Israel)..."

"(Armies carrying) black flags will come
from Khurasaan (Iran). No power will be able to stop them and they will finally reach Eela (Dome of the Rock in
Jerusalem) where they will erect their flags."

"There will be many armies after me.
You must join that army which will come from Khurasaan (Iran)."

"The sun will soon set, and what remains of this world, compared to what has passed, is like what remains of this day compared to what has passed"

"Islam began as something strange, and it will revert to being something strange as it was in the beginning, so good tidings for the strangers. It was asked of him : "who are the strangers?" and he said : "the ones who break away from their people for the sake of Islam"

"By him in whose hand my soul is, my nation will split into 73 sects: one will enter paradise and 72 will enter hell". It was asked of him : " who will they (the saved people) be?" and he said : "The main body of the muslims (Jama'ah)"

"Among the signs of the hour will be the disapperance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance. Adultery will be prevalent and the drinking of wine will be commmon"

"If fornication should become widespread you should know that this has never happened without God sending new diseases to the people which their forbears didn't suffer from . If people should begin to cheat in weighing out goods then know that this has never happened without drought and famine befalling the people, and their rulers oppressing them. If people should withhold Zakat then you should realize that this has never happened without the rain being stopped from falling, and were it not for the animal's sake it would never rain again. If people should break their covenant with God and His Messenger you should realize that this has never happened without God sending an enemy against them to take some of their possessions by force. If the leaders do not govern according to the Book of God, you should realize that this has never happened without God dividing them into groups and making them fight one another."

"O People, it has been the duty of every Prophet before me to guide his people to whatever he knew was good for them and to warn them against whatever he knew was bad for them, but this nation has its time of peace and security, at the beginning; close to the end it will suffer trials and tribulations, one after another. Tribulation will come and the believer will say "This will finish me" but it will pass. Another tribulation will come and he will say "This is it" but it will pass also and a third will come and go likewise. Whoever wishes to be rescued from Hell, and enter Paradise let him die believing in God and the Last Day and treat the people as he himself wishes to be treated. If anoyone gives allegiance to an Imam, then let him obey him as much as he can."

"You will sign a peace treaty with the Romans (Christians/Europeans), and together you will invade an enemy beyond Rome. You will be victorious and take much booty. Then you will camp in a hilly pasture; one of the Roman men will come and raise a cross and say "Victory to the Cross", so one of the muslims will come and kill him. Then the Romans will break the treaty and there will be battle. They will gather an army against you and come against you with eighty banners, each banner followed by ten thousand men"

Pointing towards Syria he said:

"An enemy will gather forces against the muslims". He was asked :"do you mean the Romans ?" and he said :" Yes. At that time there will be very heavy fighting. The muslims will prepare a detachment to fight to death. Both sides will return without being victorious; then many will be killed on both sides. On the fourth day, the muslims who are left will return to the fight and God will cause the enemy to be routed. There will be a battle the like of which has never been seen, so that even if a bird were to pass their ranks, it would fall down dead before it reached the end of them. Out of a family of one hundred, only one man will survive, so how could he enjoy the booty or divide any inheritance? While they are in this state, they will hear of an even worse calamity. A cry will reach them : "the Antichrist has taken your place among your offspring"

"The hour will not be established until the Romans camp at Al-A'mash or Dabiq. An army composed of the best people on earth at that time will come out from Medina to meet them. When they have arranged themselves in ranks, the Romans will say "Do not stand between us and those who took prisoners from amongst us. Let us fight them". The Muslims will say " No, by God, we will never stand aside from you and our brothers". Then they will fight. One third will turn away and run away and God will never forgive them. One third will be killed and they will be the best of Martyrs in God's sight. One third who will never be subjected to trials and tribulations will win and will then conquer Constantinople. Whilst they are sharing their booty after hanging their swords, Satan will shout to them that the Antichrist has taken their place among their families. They will rush out but they will find out it is not true. When they come to Syria, the Antichrist will appear while they are preparing for battle and drawing up their ranks. When the time for prayer comes, Jesus the son of Mary will descend. When the enemy of God sees him (i.e Jesus) he (the Antichrist) will start to dissolve like salt in water"

"The Hour will not come until the muslims fight against the Jews and destroy them."

"Neither the Antichrist nor a plague can enter Medina"

"By Him in Whose hand is my soul, the Hour will not come until wild animals talk to men and a man speaks to his whip or his shoe and his thigh will tell him about what happened to his family after he left"

"The hour will not come until time passes so quickly that a year will be like a month, a month like a week, a week like a day, a day like an hour and an hour like the time it takes for a palm-leaf to burn"

"The bare-footed and naked paupers (of Arabia) will compete with one another in constructing high buildings"

"The hour will not come until the time when a man will leave his home and his shoes or whip or stick will tell what is happening to his family"

"There will be a tribulation that will clean the Arabs and its dead will be in Hell (because they fought for wordly ideologies and glory not Islam)"

"The last Hour will not come upon us until the lands of the Arabs are once again pasture lands
and filled with rivers."

"The people will flee from the Antichrist to the mountains". He was asked : "O Messenger of God! Where will the Arabs be at that time" to which he replied : "they will be very few"

"They (the Arabs) will be few and they will be concentrated around Jerusalem and their Imam will be a righetous man (the Imam Mahdi)."...and he continued to describe the descent of Jesus the Son of Mary

"Woe to the Arabs of an evil drawing nigh! Its shadow has fallen on them already by the Lord of the Ka'aba. Its shadow has fallen on them! (i.e it is close)"

"Soon the river "Euphrates" will disclose the treasure (the mountain) of gold, so whoever will
be present at that time should not take anything of it"

"The Euphrates would soon uncover a mountain of gold and
when the people would hear of it they would flock towards it but the people who would possess that (treasure)
(would say): If we allow these persons to take out of it they would take away the whole of it. So they would fight
and ninety-nine out of one hundred would be killed. "

"God will send no Apostle after me, but only Mubashshirat. It was said: what is meant by al-Mubashshirat. He said : Good vision or pious vision"

"Towards the Latter Days dreams shall become confused. The truthful dream will be by the truthful, pious person (muslim)"

http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/30...eethfuture.htm


I think all else is extraneous


cheers!

[Cognescenti]

Darwin did not even address the development of the first cells. He can hardly therefore be said to be wrong on the issue.

Pliney the Elder "left out" the Magna Carta, the French Revolution and the last winner of the Indianapolis 500. That doesn't make his histories inaccurate.

I will admit that scientific knowledge on the development of the first cells and the first protein transcription is a bit fuzzy. That seems unavoidable given the apparent antiquity. The origin of the universe is even more curious. There is plenty of room for God if one doesn't take the story of Genesis literally.

[جوري]

Darwin did not even address the development of the first cells. He can hardly therefore be said to be wrong on the issue.

The paper addresses evolution, and all its facets using math!

Pliney the Elder "left out" the Magna Carta, the French Revolution and the last winner of the Indianapolis 500. That doesn't make his histories inaccurate.

That is a powerful refutation for a 47 page thesis.. you must be a speed reader?

I will admit that scientific knowledge on the development of the first cells and the first protein transcription is a bit fuzzy. That seems unavoidable given the apparent antiquity. The origin of the universe is even more curious. There is plenty of room for God if one doesn't take the story of Genesis literally.

I don't follow biblical text, so I am not sure what you deem truthful or allegorical? If your livlihood is in fact as you claim then you can list the flaws of using mutations as an answer to 'speciation' or even a DNA break as a plausible explanation with the data what we actually have available!
There is no room for the philosophy of atheists in science.

They have simply not accounted for the formation of one cell, its appropriate base pairs assembling so that we don't have truncated but functional proteins, with all its mirco-machinery, with their assigned function, working on its own volition to the neat programmed apoptosis to give us an acceptable explanation, super natural in nature or not. Most evolutionists are simply off on their timing and calculations to account for everything, given that the first 'seeded plant' was noted after 1.1 billion yrs from the actual age of this earth, for life to have even been fostered given the austere conditions of the sun in relationship to this planet which rendered it uninhabitable. Here we are folks in a 6 billion year old planet which took 1.1 billion to give life to the first seeded plant and another 4.9 to give you 1.7 million more species(the ones we actually know) through perfect little mutations. I am surprised we are not morphing as we write and for some unknown purpose and reason didn't arrest at being proglottids or cockroaches, or the most baffling of all, throughout all those tries, why not eleminate death once 'perfection has been achieved'?! What is the point of all of this?

I am amused and at a loss really, intellectuals modern day have difficulty at times distinguishing an aortic dissection from an MI on first presentation, yet English teachers across the globe not only have declared that there is no God with such bravado, unleashed all the secrets of the earth, life as a mere chance, but are somehow peddling theories (testable in fact using vectors in form of liposomes or retorviruses) as cold hard facts..

what a world we live in .. true it is all the signs of the end are manifesting as we write
When orators and lecturers lie openly.
* When people dispute over petty issues
When oppression, jealousy, and greed become the order of the day.
* When people blatantly follow their passions and whims.
* When lies prevail over the truth.
When violence, bloodshed and anarchy become common.
* When immorality overtakes shamelessness and is perpetrated publicly.
* When legislation matters pertaining to Deen is handed over to the worst elements of the Ummat, and if people accept them
* There will be an abundance of critics, tale-carriers, back- biters and taunters in society.
* People will establish ties with strangers and sever relations with their near and dear ones.
The leader of a people will be the worst of them
* Hypocrites will be in control of the affairs of the community and evil, immoral people will be at the helm of business
establishments.
and certainly what I deem the worst of the lot

The disappearance of knowledge and the appearance of ignorance (Bukhari & Muslim)

Life is as it always was.. no free thinkers, to be 'deemed' a free thinker is to indulge in the desires of the lower self and leave God behind and mock deists as backwards!

sobhan Allah

[Trumble]

The paper addresses evolution, and all its facets using math!

Those with that "basic science" might find THIS exchange (in which Mullen is a participant) of interest. :sunny:

[جوري]

Those with that "basic science" might find THIS exchange (in which Mullen is a participant) of interest. :sunny:

I don't find blogs of interest, I have already had this discussion with you before I believe?
If you are unable to come up with intelligent refutations using like science instead of rummaging public blogs with your asinine attempts or the usual character assassination of scientists who use their brain to theorize instead of accepting crap at face value then don't partake in a topic. At least don't quote me in the process, as I feel it a painful waste and has come to lose all meaning over time.
It isn't that difficult to see what google has to offer.. all one needs do is use right side of their mouse it is how I found the original article to begin with! I know a shocker ey?

Nice try.. but time for you to find a new hobby!

cheers!

[Trumble]

Your attitude is becoming increasingly tedious, PA. All I did was post a link to a forum discussion (not a 'blog') in which Dr Mullen himself was a participant. I did not comment on it. I did not attempt to 'refute' anything, nor advocate one side of the discussion there rather than the other. I did not make any attempt at "character assassination", asinine or otherwise.

I find it very surprising that you don't find Mullen's defence of his paper from a particular criticism "of interest" when you seem quite happy to peddle the paper itself at every opportunity.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

I am amused and at a loss really, intellectuals modern day have difficulty at times distinguishing an aortic dissection from an MI on first presentation, yet English teachers across the globe not only have declared that there is no God with such bravado, unleashed all the secrets of the earth, life as a mere chance, but are somehow peddling theories (testable in fact using vectors in form of liposomes or retorviruses) as cold hard facts..

Thanks for the compliments, PA. It's always so refreshing to hear your ideas. Please do keep them coming.

Peace

[جوري]

Greetings,


Thanks for the compliments, PA. It's always so refreshing to hear your ideas. Please do keep them coming.

Peace

your blasé indifference is really getting to me, there are however, forum rules against taking up webspace on nonsense and spreading muck!
Again until you have something of substance to impart I suggest you take a hike!

cheers

[جوري]

Your attitude is becoming increasingly tedious, PA. All I did was post a link to a forum discussion (not a 'blog') in which Dr Mullen himself was a participant. I did not comment on it. I did not attempt to 'refute' anything, nor advocate one side of the discussion there rather than the other. I did not make any attempt at "character assassination", asinine or otherwise.

That is just your prob ain't it? you google but hardly write anything of substance! we have many scholars here graduates of a google search, then a cut and paste but couldn't comment, explain or challenge any of it, if their life depended on it! welcome to the list!

I find it very surprising that you don't find Mullen's defence of his paper from a particular criticism "of interest" when you seem quite happy to peddle the paper itself at every opportunity.

What do you care what I find of interest or not?
I'll write what I want, where I want, whenever I find a fool rehashing his same old recycled refuse. How many times have I seen the lot of you link us to 'talk origins' as a reply to any thought provoking question, not that you could discuss its contents with other than levity, It seems all of you are oh so 'pressed for time' yet rip into Behe or anyone who is remotly not yielding into conventionally accepted theories!
You conform to common standards and status quo, only from the opposite side!
Who is tedious here?!

cheers