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AHMED_GUREY
12-05-2007, 07:31 AM
Islamists Regaining Somalia

The Islamic Courts fighters have grown more powerful in recent months, regaining control of at least one-third of Somalia thanks to sophisticated attacks and unified ranks in the face of a weak government, Somali experts said on Monday, December 3.

The Islamic Courts fighters are controlling some 30 percent of Somalia" Mohammad Al-Amin Al-Sheikh, a Somali expert in strategic affairs, told IslamOnline.net Monday, December 3.

"They have now tightened their grip on the southern provinces," he added, referring to the strategic provinces of Middle Shabele, Middle Juba, Lower Juba, Hiraan and Galguduud.

Al-Sheikh said anti-government tribal groups are virtually controlling 40 percent of the Horn of Africa country, while 25 percent enjoy de facto independence like Somaliland.

"This leaves the government in control of a meager 5 percent of Somalia, chiefly the main cities," he noted.

Backed by the United States, the Ethiopian army intervened in December of last year in the Somali conflict to help the weak interim government oust the Islamic Courts, which managed to briefly restore unprecedented order and stability on most of the Somali territories after more than 15 years of unrest.
The Courts ruled for six months after routing an alliance of warlords, who were also supported by Washington.

Since their ouster, the Ethiopian and government forces have been coming under almost daily resistance attacks.

Why Powerful?

The Islamist fighters are more sophisticated and unified than the weak government troops, according to experts.

"The Islamist fighters outnumber the government troops, which are less experienced," said Abu Bakr Al-Badri, a Somali journalist and political analyst.

There are some 6,400 Islamic Courts fighters including 4,000 in the capital Mogadishu, 1,500 in the south and 900 in the two provinces of Hiraan and Galguduud, according to Al-Sheikh.

"The government has 4,000 soldiers, but they are unable to match the powerful Islamic Courts because they lack a clear fighting strategy and many of them believe it is haram (unlawful in Islam) to take up arms against fighters resisting the Ethiopian occupation," said Al-Sheikh.

After ousting the Islamic Courts, Ethiopia deployed some 40,000 troops in Mogadishu, Baidoa and Beledweyne.

The Islamist strength also lies in their flexibility and decentralization, and despite their different ideologies, they act in unison when necessary.

"They have proved pragmatic when they joined forces with nationalists and (liberal) intellectuals, forming the 'Alliance for the Liberation of Somalia,' in September under Sharif Sheikh Ahmed," the former head of the Executive Council of the Islamic Courts, said Al-Sheikh.

The impressive performance of this alliance has made it a party to be reckoned with, encouraging regional and European heavyweights like Egypt and Italy to invite its leaders for talks, according to the Somali expert.

Realizing its growing influence, newly-appointed Somali Prime Minister Nour Hassan Hussein invited Sunday, December 2, Islamist opposition leaders for a dialogue to put an end to a deadly cycle of violence that has been raging since January claiming the lives of up to 6,000 people and pushing tens of thousands into a panicky flight.

"We are ready to speak with the Asmara group as long as they are ready to discuss with us. We are not naming anyone from the opposition leaders but we are ready for a positive advice and criticism," Hussein told a Kenyan TV station, referring to the Eritrea-based Islamist-led opposition alliance.

Somali President Abdullah Yousef Ahmed had admitted that the Islamists were the de facto rulers of Somalia.

"Who is running trade, education, communication and health in Somalia?" Yousef asked in recent statements cited by local media and the Voice of America.

"It is the Al-Islah group (Muslim Brotherhood), Islamic Union Group (Salafists) and other (Islamist) groups", he answered.

By Abdel Qadir Mohammad, IOL Correspondent

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Omar_Mukhtar
12-05-2007, 03:49 PM
1/3rd is complete nonsense, they don't even control 1 major city or town. But they are regrouping in the far south and the central regions. Many of those provinces he listed are still under the hands of the T.F.G(tribal militias) and Ethiopians. As for the rest of the article , just speculation, it links many unrelated and related issues together.
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islamirama
12-05-2007, 04:03 PM
May Allah bless these brothers and sisters with victory protect them from the kuffars and enemy of Islam and return their land back in their hands. Ameen.
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al-muslimah
12-05-2007, 05:29 PM
Alhamdulilah.
Like Allah said INALLAA YU DAF'U ANILATHINA AMAN--ALLAH DEFENDS THE ONES WHO BELIEVE..victory is still ahead.
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AHMED_GUREY
12-05-2007, 06:26 PM
Islamist insurgency grows in Somalia

The Islamist-led resistance in Somalia is growing in scale and aggression, with insurgents openly taking on Ethiopian troops and African Union peacekeepers in the capital Mogadishu, in fighting that has killed dozens, possibly hundreds, in the past three weeks.
Early on Saturday two groups of rebels fired grenades at Ugandan peacekeepers and briefly entered their post before being repelled. The attack, which coincided with an internet call by a Somali Islamist extremist, Adan Hashi Ayro, for peacekeepers to be targeted, came after two weeks of fighting and reprisals between insurgents and the allied Ethiopian and government troops that caused a massive exodus from Mogadishu.


The UN estimates that 173,000 people have fled the city since October 27, adding to the 330,000 already displaced from the capital this year. Dozens, perhaps hundreds, of civilians were killed, as both sides fired shells indiscriminately into residential neighbourhoods.
Ahmedou Ould-Abdullah, the UN secretary general's special representative for Somalia, said last week that the huge displacement, coupled with high child malnutrition rates and extreme difficulty in delivering aid, had made this Africa's worst humanitarian crisis.

Few people believe that the situation is about to get better. Several experts interviewed by the Guardian say that the insurgents are becoming more powerful. A military analyst and a western diplomat to Somalia, neither of whom wished to be named, warned that the angry mood and conditions that allowed an Islamist movement to defeat a gang of warlords and take power in Mogadishu last year were returning. "We are on a merry-go-round and it's back to 2006," said the analyst. "The insurgents are gaining not only in physical strength, but in moral strength too."

African Union commanders told diplomats last week that the insurgents were actively fighting in 70% of Mogadishu's neighbourhoods. There are also signs that the resistance has spread beyond the capital. Islamic courts are reported to have taken control of two towns in the far south, while Hassan Al-Turki, a radical Islamist on the US terror list, is understood to be expanding his influence up the coast from his base near the Kenyan border.

Analysts say that the situation reflects a chronic miscalculation by the Ethiopian prime minister, Meles Zenawi, who sent his troops into Somalia late last year, and by the US, which backed that decision. The goal was to rout the Somali Council of Islamic Courts (SCIC), which had brought a measure of calm to Mogadishu for the first time in more than a decade, but which was accused by Washington and Addis Ababa of close links to al-Qaida.

Ethiopian troops easily swept through the Islamist fighters and installed the weak and unpopular Somali government in Mogadishu. The calm did not last long. Remnants of the SCIC's military wing, the Shabaab, launched a low-scale insurgency, using hit-and-run tactics and remote-controlled bombs to target Ethiopian and government troops. Many ordinary Somalis also resented the presence of tens of thousands of troops from Ethiopia. Soon warlords, clan leaders and businessmen were aiding the resistance with money, arms and their own militias.

Source
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al-muslimah
12-05-2007, 06:30 PM
I ask Allah to let them control all of Somalia and Ethiopia inshallah.Ameen.
At-Taifatul Mansura aka the Saved Sect will be victorious inshallah and no other.
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islamirama
12-05-2007, 06:32 PM
US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has called for more peacekeeping troops to be deployed urgently to Somalia to replace Ethiopian soldiers.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7129118.stm

These kuffars will do anything to stop shariah from being established in Muslim lands. May Allah destroy them and bless our brothers and sisters with victory soon inshallah. Ameen.
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AHMED_GUREY
12-05-2007, 06:42 PM
Somali leader rushed to hospital

Somalia's interim President Abdullahi Yusuf has been taken to hospital in the Kenyan capital, the BBC has learnt.

His condition is said to be "serious" but there are no further details. He had a liver transplant in the 1990s.

He was named president in 2004 after protracted peace talks in Kenya but has not been able to end years of conflict.

Mr Yusuf's Ethiopia-backed government is battling Islamist insurgents and the UN says that more than one million people are homeless in Somalia.

He is to be flown to London for treatment and has cancelled a meeting on Wednesday with regional leaders.

The news comes as four ministers resigned from the cabinet named by Mr Yusuf's newly appointed Prime Minister Nur Hussein Hassan.

Mr Yusuf, 73, had been due to travel to the Ethiopian capital, Addis Ababa for Wednesday's meeting between regional leaders and US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

President Yusuf controversially enlisted the help of the Ethiopian army to oust the Union of Islamic Courts from the capital, Mogadishu in December 2006.

The past year has seen increasing levels of violence as the Islamists battle the Ethiopian-backed government, rendering Mogadishu too unsafe for the government which has been forced to operate out of Baidoa.
Source
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al-muslimah
12-05-2007, 10:30 PM
Alhamdulillah. I hope he suffers sificaan!!!
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Qingu
12-11-2007, 07:07 AM
So you guys support the Islamic Courts conquering a country by force in order to instill its ideology on a largely unwilling populace? Sounds familiar to something that is happening in Iraq right now....
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Omar_Mukhtar
12-11-2007, 07:13 AM
Why use word such as " unwilling populace", as if you have done a hand count and you best understand the wishes of the peoples? Last I checked the majority of Iraqis wanted the occupiers to leave, isn't this instilling an ideology on an "unwilling populace". I mean Bush didn't exactly give any choices did he?In his crusade either you are with us or against us. Islamic Courts might not have the support of everyone in Somalia, but the humans rights abuses and massacred commited by Ethiopians have no parallel today! And it's not reall about supporting dear lad, it is just people who are defending their countries from occupation, same thing as the hero George Washington did! Occupy any country and there will a resistance! Why do some westerner find that so hard to grasp?
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Qingu
12-11-2007, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
Why use word such as " unwilling populace", as if you have done a hand count and you best understand the wishes of the peoples? Last I checked the majority of Iraqis wanted the occupiers to leave, isn't this instilling an ideology on an "unwilling populace".
That was exactly my point.

I mean Bush didn't exactly give any choices did he?
Are the Islamic Courts giving the citizens of Somalia a choice?

In his crusade either you are with us or against us.
Again, sounds exactly like the Islamic Courts.

Islamic Courts might not have the support of everyone in Somalia, but the humans rights abuses and massacred commited by Ethiopians have no parallel today!
The same can be said about the human rights abuses and massacres under Saddam Hussein. It sounds like you're saying the Islamic Courts are "liberating" Somalia from despotism, just like how America "liberated" Iraq.

same thing as the hero George Washington did!
I actually don't think George Washington was a hero. (I'm not a fan of 1770's Great Britain either.)

Anyway: Americans are foreigners violently enforcing a foreign ideology in Iraq. Islamic Courts are foreigners violently enforcing a foreign ideology in Somalia. I utterly fail to see why you support one and not the other.
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Trumble
12-11-2007, 08:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Anyway: Americans are foreigners violently enforcing a foreign ideology in Iraq. Islamic Courts are foreigners violently enforcing a foreign ideology in Somalia. I utterly fail to see why you support one and not the other.
As you know perfectly well it's the same reason it always is, one is the 'Islamic' side and the another is not (or even just a less fundamentalist Islamic side, or even Shia rather than Sunni - or vice versa - side). I just wish people would be honest about it rather than trying to peddle the 'resistance' and 'defending their land' tripe which is a total fantasy.
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Omar_Mukhtar
12-11-2007, 08:13 AM
Islamic Courts are foreigners they are local Somalis and of course they aren't angels. There are some extremely dodgy ppl within them.tBut what ever crimes they commited can't be compared to what the Ethiopians are doing in Somalia and even in their own country. Just read what the aid agencies are reporting ie rapes in broadaylight without any Shame and many other abuses. The majority of ppl who are resisting aren't trying to establish any ideology, they just angry that their homes have been looted, clan elders imprisoned, their wifes and daughters raped and humilated. This is why the Islamists are gaining more and support from disgruntled locals in Somalia.There is so much humans beings can take. As one Iraqi said:

quote:When they occupied Iraq, they subjugated me, my sister, my mother, my honor, my homeland

What do you want me to do ? Just sit at home with my wife and keep quiet?

A person who doesn't fight to defend himself or his country, shouldn't be called a human being

quote:What if America was invaded ?....... And then occupied........ They dropped bombs on your town........And killed your neighbors......... They came to your house............And took your family away..........

How would you feel?......What would you do?
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AHMED_GUREY
12-11-2007, 09:37 AM
:sl:

Qingu it's best not to engage in topics when your not familiar with the issue you want to discuss about(unless you educate yourself about this conflict). That was quite a big blunder you just made when you called a grassroots movement ''foreign''. Revealing you know little about the situation and dynamics of Somalia


A Wealth of Kindness Among Somalia's Poorest

By Stephanie McCrummen
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, December 10, 2007; A01



MARKA, Somalia -- After she escaped the urban battleground of Mogadishu, walked 20 days in the blasting heat, slept in the sand, dreamed of explosions and watched her four children get sicker and skinnier, Asiya Ali arrived one recent evening at this unfamiliar seaside town.

There was no international relief effort to greet her, only the setting sun and a town full of people already strained by the worst crop failure in recent memory. And so, scared and tired, Ali said, she turned to the only resource she had left: her clan.

"I'm Bimal," she told anyone she found wandering the soft sand streets of Marka, a process that led her to Fatima Mohamed, a distant relative she had never met.

"She cooked tea for us, gave sugar for the children, gave us tomatoes and bread," Ali recalled. "She said, 'Welcome.' "

Nearly a year after Ethiopian troops invaded Somalia with U.S. support to oust an Islamic movement there, the Somali capital of Mogadishu remains locked in a brutal urban war that has driven an estimated 600,000 people -- more than half the city's population -- into the countryside.

U.N. officials say Somalia has descended into the continent's worst humanitarian crisis, a situation veering toward famine in some areas.

Yet in the narrow streets that wind through this town of whitewashed buildings, it is difficult to find even one encampment of displaced people or a family that has been turned away.

Instead, the tired and hungry arrivals -- about 15,000 of them this year -- have been quietly absorbed into the grass-roofed houses of local residents such as Mohamed, who estimates she has hosted 10 families over the past year. Most of them, she said, are related to her through clan -- Somalia's intricate network of families, some of which trace their ancestry to Adam.

"We have nothing at all," Mohamed said. "But we do what we can."

While other parts of Africa, notably Sudan's western region of Darfur, have comparable levels of child malnutrition, there are few places where the gap between need and response is so great. The shortfall has been attributed to Somalia's lack of security, its often uncooperative government and the current focus of so many aid groups on the crisis in Sudan.

More than 200,000 of the people who have fled Mogadishu are living along a single road leading out of the city, a 10-mile stretch thought to be the largest single gathering of displaced people in the world.

The rest have fanned out to points north, west and south, arriving by truck, by donkey and on foot in towns such as this one about 50 miles from Mogadishu.

Here in the lower Shabeelle River region, long known as the country's breadbasket, vast fields of maize, sorghum and beans are shriveling for lack of rain, and food prices are skyrocketing.

Even without the beleaguered newcomers arriving daily, the situation has been so tenuous that the United Nations dispatched two ships this month with food intended to shore up the local population.

Mohamed said she had exactly one loaf of bread and a few tomatoes for her own family when Ali arrived last month. She divvied it up.

She had a bit of room in her house, and Ali and her children are still sleeping there. She had an extra dress and a piece of pink cloth, which she gave to Ali. "Without her, the problem would have been very bad. We're grateful she has a good heart," said Ali, who was wearing the dress.

Others arriving here have found refuge with local Somali groups such as one run by Mana Abdurahman, who has taken in more than 200 orphaned children this year, as well as families from Somalia's more marginal clans.

"I don't care where they're from," said Abdurahman, the daughter of a prominent clan leader.

Abdurahman walked through the place she calls her "village," a swath of sand and huts and shady palms, greeting two recently arrived families and a young girl named Asha, who had been dropped off by her Mogadishu neighbors.

In a small gesture of mercy, Abdurahman has decided to wait a while before telling the little girl she is the only one left of her family of seven. The rest were killed in a bomb blast in Mogadishu.

"Where is Ibrahim?" Abdurahman asked her gently.

"He's at home!" Asha said brightly.

"Where's your father?" Abdurahman asked.

"He's at home!" Asha said.

"Where's your mother?" Abdurahman asked.

"She's at home!" the little girl said, and on it went, as Abdurahman hugged her.

In the absence of more robust international aid, Somalis are mostly relying on such kindnesses and on money from relatives abroad, as well as the clan structures that have so often been blamed for undermining attempts to form a viable central government.

"Clans can be manipulated and badly used by politicians," said Mohamed Uluso, a political leader of a powerful subclan. "But clan is part of the life and welfare of Somali society, especially because we don't have a government taking care right now."

In fact, aid groups have blamed the transitional government of Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf for thwarting the meager relief effort.

In a briefing to the Security Council last week, the United Nations' humanitarian chief, John Holmes, appealed to donor nations to send more humanitarian workers and aid to Somalia, but he also emphasized the need to address the underlying political causes of the crisis.

Checkpoints manned by government soldiers and freelance militias, for instance, are charging as much as $400 to let trucks carrying food and other aid pass. U.N. workers have been arrested by government soldiers in Mogadishu, where political assassinations are becoming commonplace.

And just last week, Somalia's security chief, quoting an order from Yusuf, abruptly shut all roads and ports south of Mogadishu, leaving 3,700 tons of food on ships anchored off the coast.

The order was lifted without explanation the next day, and a battalion of rowboats headed out to offload the sacks stamped with the U.S. flag.

The other day, a crowd of several dozen families arrived with wooden carts to haul away sacks of sorghum and split yellow peas stacked at an abandoned school that was serving as a food distribution point.

Among them was Hawa Robleh, 45, who said she was receiving food aid for the first time in her life. She has to feed not only her own eight children, but also a family of distant relatives from Mogadishu who have been with her for two months.

"Life is difficult for me, but it's more difficult for them, because they left their homes," Robleh said. "We've shared everything we had."

She added, though, that even with the food rations, her generosity may not be enough.

"Since they arrived," she said, referring to her guests, "the children have become thinner."

Source


Omar_Mukthar Brother this is not Ethiopia vs Somalia multiple groups in Ethiopia are suffering the same attrocities under this regime which is America's lapdog, what is happening today in the Horn of Africa is two dictators financed,sponsored and protected by the West doing their dirty work while the masses are suffering ad infinitum...

In 5/10 years time this same ''west'' will start to condemn these two myopic fools and classify them in the same category as other African dictators of the past..ironic isn't it?

:w:
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Qingu
12-11-2007, 02:33 PM
Calling the Islamic Courts "grassroots" is like calling American-led Iraqi coalition forces "grassroots." They are heavily financed and apparently armed from abroad, and many foreign fighters make up their ranks.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...EF40B5BAF7.htm

"A Somali Islamic Courts defence chief has for the first time called on foreign Muslim fighters to join his movement's war against Ethiopia.
......
Ali Mohamed Gedi, prime minister in Somalia's largely powerless transitional government, said that foreign "terrorists" were already taking part in the fighting.

"Four thousand foreign fighters have participated in recent fighting around Dinsoor district and some of them have been killed," Gedi said."
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Cognescenti
12-11-2007, 06:07 PM
Simply calling themselves the Islamic Courts is troubling to me.

Of course, I imagine I am just being intolerant. I am sure they are a perfectly harmless group :smile:

If y'all want to invade Ethiopia, more power to you...just remember...they whooped the Italians with leather shields and wooden spears.
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Belief_is_Power
12-11-2007, 08:35 PM
Mashallah may allah bless the Islamic courts. These brothers are fighting for the sake of Allah and they deserve our prayers. when they were in control somalia was on track.
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AHMED_GUREY
12-11-2007, 08:59 PM
The Rise and Fall of Mogadishu's Islamic Courts


Introduction
In early April 2007, Jendayi Frazer, the highest-ranking US official to visit the country in more than a decade, met the President of the Transitional Federal Government of Somalia. But the meeting took place in the provincial town of Baidoa, not the capital Mogadishu that had been plunged into the worst violence since the days of the Somali 'civil war' in the early 1990s. The recent violence is the result of a seismic shift in southern Somali politics over the last twelve months, where the spectre of an Islamist movement - opening a new front on the 'war on terror' - has provoked the first significant international engagement in Somalia since the departure of the United Nations in 1995.

In an uncomfortably familiar pattern, genuine multilateral concern to support the reconstruction and rehabilitation of Somalia has been hijacked by unilateral actions of other international actors - especially Ethiopia and the United States - following their own foreign policy agendas. The recent deployment of African Union peacekeepers to Somalia came after the Ethiopian army, with apparent US backing, installed the Transitional Federal Government in Mogadishu in early 2007. The justification for this unprecedented and highly provocative intervention was to stem the growth of an alternative Islamist regime that had taken root in Mogadishu in 2006, with suspected links to US-designated terrorist organizations.

During 2006 a variety of Islamist organizations, centred on a long-standing network of local Islamic or sharia courts in Mogadishu, had come together under an umbrella organization, popularly known in the Western media as the Islamic Courts Union. As the movement coalesced and seized control of Mogadishu, the Islamic Courts Union became an alternative to the internationally recognized, but internally disputed, Transitional Federal Government, then restricted to Baidoa. To the outside world, where the shift in the politics of Somalia had gone largely unnoticed, the Courts' sudden ascendance looked like a carefully planned Islamic revolution. The reality was far more complex.

The Origins of the Islamic Courts

The phenomenon of Islamic Courts in 'stateless' Somalia first appeared in north Mogadishu in August 1994. After nearly four years of persistent anarchy and political failures, Islamic clerics from a locally powerful clan with the blessing of their 'secular' political leaders, founded the first fully functioning sharia court.

The establishment of the Islamic Courts was not so much an Islamist imperative as a response to the need for some means of upholding law and order.
The Islamist agenda in the Courts was not particularly 'programmatic'; they were not presided over by expert Islamic judges, nor were they adherents to any specific school of Islamic law. The enforcement of the Courts' judgments depended on militias recruited from the local clan. At root, the Islamic Courts were part and parcel of clan power in Mogadishu. They served specific clans and earned the support of the business class of Mogadishu for whom the primary purpose of the Islamic Courts was to provide 'security'.

The Islamic Courts were a huge success in dealing with criminality in north Mogadishu. But when it became apparent that the charismatic chairman of the north Mogadishu Courts, Sheikh Ali Dheere, was becoming a rival source of authority to the 'warlord-entrepreneur' Ali Mahdi, the latter demoted him and issued a 'decree' dismantling the whole Courts' establishment. This was the first of many setbacks from which, nevertheless, the principle of Islamic Courts has always recovered.

The temporary success of the Courts in north Mogadishu was not initially replicated beyond the 'green line' into south Mogadishu. The primary obstacle was the political leader of another dominant clan, General Mohamed Farah Aideed. General Aideed was another 'warlord-entrepreneur' and sworn enemy of Islamism. However, his death in 1996 gave political space for an experiment with Islamic Courts in south Mogadishu. The first court there was established in May 1998 by a sub-clan. The following year, two more sub-clans also established their own courts. Other clans followed suit. Though still rooted in local clan power, the south Mogadishu Courts were far more influenced by strands of political Islam and transnational Islamist and business finance networks than their predecessors in the north of the city. The link with political Islam came via former members of Al-Itihaad Al-Islaam ('The Islamic Union').

Originally a splinter group of a local Somali chapter of the transnational Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Itihaad had a covert existence during the final years of Siyad Barre's regime and only became openly active at the collapse of that regime. It was not organized through clan power. The Chairman, Sheikh Ali Warsame, was an Isaq from the north (now the self-declared Republic of Somaliland). The vice-Chairman, Sheikh Hassan Dahir Aweys, was a Hawiye from Galgadud in central Somalia, and was to become a key and controversial figure in the Islamic Courts' political leadership.

The Politicization of the Courts

The momentum of the Islamic Courts in south Mogadishu was slowed for a time by the creation of the Transitional National Government of Abdiqasim Hassan Salad at the Arta conference in Djibouti in 2000. Despite constant accusations, primarily from Ethiopia, that Abdiqasim's government was beholden to the Islamists, this was never the case.4 Indeed, it was only as the Arta government waned in power that the Islamic Courts strengthened once more. In 2003, a school teacher, Sheikh Sharif Sheikh Ahmed, frustrated with the lack of security among his Abgal sub-clan, revived the Islamic Courts system in north Mogadishu. By the end of 2004, he had been elected as the Chairman of all Islamic Courts operating across north and south Mogadishu.

By now, the growing influence of the Islamic Courts had begun to encroach upon the authority of the warlords of Mogadishu. While this was in part just another of Mogadishu's turf-wars, there was also a new ideological and political undercurrent to the rivalry. During 2005 Mogadishu was hit by a wave of unexplained assassinations and disappearances. Activists in the Islamic Courts claimed that covert US government operations were targeting their members, including the assassinations of the militia commanders of several courts, among them the Ifka Halane Islamic Court. These were not men with a religious background, but they were the driving force behind the implementation of court jurisdictions. It was in this context that a military force known as Al-Shabaab ('the Youth') emerged, related to but seemingly autonomous of the broad-based Courts movement.

Al-Shabaab fighters were suspected of killing security officers, some of them associated with the newly formed Transitional Federal Government of Colonel Abdullahi Yusuf and 'secular' politicians, in retaliation for killings of Islamic Court officials. It was also widely believed in Mogadishu that Somali warlords were helping the US government intelligence agents 'snatch' alleged terror suspects, particularly prominent Somali (and foreign) religious leaders. Not only did this show a flagrant disregard for what little sovereignty Somalia could claim, it also forced the Islamic Courts leaders to take a political stand. Matters came to a head in March 2006 when the long-standing covert operations took on a public face and warlords announced the formation of a new group called the Alliance for Restoration of Peace and Counter-Terrorism.

However, it was a parochial issue - rivalry over Mogadishu's only, and vastly profitable, makeshift seaport at El Ma'an - that sparked the events which resulted in the takeover of Mogadishu by the Islamic Courts. A long-standing rivalry between businessmen Abukar Omar Adane and Bashir Rage turned violent. When Bashir Rage associated himself with the reportedly US-backed warlord Alliance, Abukar Adane called on the militias of the joint Islamic Courts, of whom he appeared to have been a benefactor. Key figures from Al-Shabaab participated in the fighting that defeated Bashir Rage, including another important Ayr figure to emerge from the Ifka Halane Court militia, Sheikh Adan Hashi Ayro.

The violence escalated beyond the initial flash-point, with serious clashes. There was also a gathering tide of public opinion against the warlords, who were perceived as self-serving and corrupt with little regard for the interests of the average Mogadishu citizen. The Islamic Courts Union, on the other hand, had a proven track record of restoring security and was associated with the provision of other social services and charitable works. The Courts had enjoyed the support of the business community. With the public and business community behind them, and a well-funded and well-motivated militia, the Islamic Courts took a stand against the warlord Alliance.

By the first weeks of April 2006, the Courts' militias had overrun much of the city, seizing heavy weaponry and collecting former clan militia members as new recruits. The key resources of El-Ma'an seaport and Isaley airfield, both north of Mogadishu, came under the Courts' sole control. Intermittent but serious confrontations continued throughout April and into the first half of May. In a symbolic victory, the Courts' forces captured the very building in which the warlord Alliance had been formed, and established an Islamic Court in its place. By early June, the Islamic Courts had complete control over Mogadishu, and most of the warlords had fled the city.

What started as an intervention by Al-Shabaab fighters in support of the businessman Abukar Omar Adane rapidly evolved into a thoroughgoing transformation of Mogadishu. The Courts achieved the unthinkable, uniting Mogadishu for the first time in 16 years, and re-establishing peace and security. The Courts undertook significant and highly symbolic public actions. Road-blocks were removed and even the ubiquitous piles of rubbish that had blighted the city for a decade or more were cleared. The main Mogadishu airport and seaport were reopened and rehabilitated for the first time in a decade. Squatters were made to vacate government buildings, illegal land grabs were halted, and special courts were opened to deal with the myriad claims for the restitution of property.

The Courts followed these practical actions with the declared intent of bringing an alternative means of governance to Somalia through sharia law. This was a decided shift away from factional politics based around clan loyalty. Officials from the Islamic Courts became increasingly critical in their rhetoric on the policies of Transitional Federal Government in Baidoa. Further provocative public statements were made about the status of the self-declared Republic of Somaliland in a future Somalia. A distinctly nationalistic - not to say irredentist - note was sounded by Sheikh Aweys' public criticism of Ethiopia's role in Somalia's affairs. This underlined the perceived threat that the Islamic Courts represented to neighbouring states with large Somali 'minority' populations.

Authors: Cedric Barnes - Harun Hassan
Affiliation:a School of Oriental and African Studies, London
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-11-2007, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
If y'all want to invade Ethiopia, more power to you...just remember...they whooped the Italians with leather shields and wooden spears.
A superior Ethiopian force armed with 100k French rifles whooped an Italian invading force not with ''shields'' and ''spears''

History has shown a small well trained Somali army can easily cut up the much larger Ethiopian army if foreign actors stayed out of the conflict.
Reply

snakelegs
12-11-2007, 10:06 PM
ahmed,
thanks for posting the article. i am almost completely ignorant about somalia.
islam may well be the only thing that could unite the people.
sad to think how many people have never known peace in their entire lives...
in some ways, it makes me think of afghanistan.
Reply

Omar_Mukhtar
12-12-2007, 12:39 AM
quote:Calling the Islamic Courts "grassroots" is like calling American-led Iraqi coalition forces "grassroots." They are heavily financed and apparently armed from abroad, and many foreign fighters make up their ranks.


No offense, but your comparison is totally ridiclous. Non Somali Muslims fought in Somalia, but they numbered only into their hundreds give or take. Thousands is way over estimated and that is propogana by the Ethiopians. They even claimed that they had killed thousands of Eritrean Christian whom were help the I.C.U.When the I.C.U was on the run, most of the foreign fighters were either died, fled to the Kenyan border or are still hiding in Somalia. Even the foreigners they captured were either students that went to check out Somalia and Somalis who just happen to have foreign passports. Furthermore, the Ethiopians checked the entire countryside and found nothing. They would love to catch thousands of foreigners in Somalia, but there are none! Somalia is not like Afghanistan and many foreigners can't hide there.Every clan has a specefic territory!The Bulk of the Resistance is know made up of Somali subclans and Islamist fighters who belong to the Alshabab Al Mujahideen and yes they do receive arms and funding from abroad, but then so do all movements in the world. Whatever one thinks of the I.C.U, they were mostly 98.9% Somali movement!
Reply

Cognescenti
12-12-2007, 05:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
A superior Ethiopian force armed with 100k French rifles whooped an Italian invading force not with ''shields'' and ''spears''

History has shown a small well trained Somali army can easily cut up the much larger Ethiopian army if foreign actors stayed out of the conflict.
Then go get them and quit complaining. Next step Addis Ababa
Reply

YusufNoor
12-12-2007, 05:55 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
A superior Ethiopian force armed with 100k French rifles whooped an Italian invading force not with ''shields'' and ''spears''

History has shown a small well trained Somali army can easily cut up the much larger Ethiopian army if foreign actors stayed out of the conflict.
:sl:

JazakAllah Khayr Brother. now i can update my wife on this! :thankyou:

after i read it all...:-[

:w:
Reply

Qingu
12-12-2007, 06:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
quote:Calling the Islamic Courts "grassroots" is like calling American-led Iraqi coalition forces "grassroots." They are heavily financed and apparently armed from abroad, and many foreign fighters make up their ranks.


No offense, but your comparison is totally ridiclous. Non Somali Muslims fought in Somalia, but they numbered only into their hundreds give or take. Thousands is way over estimated and that is propogana by the Ethiopians. They even claimed that they had killed thousands of Eritrean Christian whom were help the I.C.U.When the I.C.U was on the run, most of the foreign fighters were either died, fled to the Kenyan border or are still hiding in Somalia. Even the foreigners they captured were either students that went to check out Somalia and Somalis who just happen to have foreign passports. Furthermore, the Ethiopians checked the entire countryside and found nothing. They would love to catch thousands of foreigners in Somalia, but there are none! Somalia is not like Afghanistan and many foreigners can't hide there.Every clan has a specefic territory!The Bulk of the Resistance is know made up of Somali subclans and Islamist fighters who belong to the Alshabab Al Mujahideen and yes they do receive arms and funding from abroad, but then so do all movements in the world. Whatever one thinks of the I.C.U, they were mostly 98.9% Somali movement!
I doubt your statistic, but even if this were the case: what exactly is your point? It's okay for a minority group to violently take over a country and impose its unpopular ideology if they're "grassroots," but not if they're "foreign?" (Nevermind the millions of people foreign Muslims forcibly conquered as the caliphate expanded....)

I just don't see how Muslims can support the ICU and oppose the American-led invasion of Iraq, or Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza—unless, of course, you're willing to admit you have a double standard in that you're okay with Muslims violently taking over countries and imposing their ideologies, but not Jews or secularists. For my part, I oppose anyone violently taking over any country or imposing unpopular ideologies.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
12-12-2007, 06:42 AM
Wow, guys, just cos these people say the are mujahideen, does not mean they are, if only you had family living there you would know..
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-12-2007, 09:56 AM
:sl:
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
Then go get them
Cognescenti,Cognescenti,Cognescenti there is no compulsory or a specific 'rule' that says you have to 'reply' to 'my' posts, it really doesn't matter to me, so next time just remember if you don't feel like it..don't submit! cause that reply reeks of laziness:sunny:

Snakelegs&YusufNoor welcome brothers!

:w:
Reply

Omar_Mukhtar
12-12-2007, 10:13 AM
@Qingu


American Invasion of Iraq= Illegal foreign invasion
Secular Jewish takeover of Palestine= illegal settlements built by Europeans!

Islamic Courts= Grassroots Somali movement that led a revolt against the Warlods who controlled Somalia for the past 17 years!

Secondly, how is Islamic Courts attempting to impose " unpopular ideology"?

You have statistics to show what percentage of Somalis are against them or not?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-12-2007, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
I doubt your statistic, but even if this were the case: what exactly is your point? It's okay for a minority group to violently take over a country and impose its unpopular ideology if they're "grassroots," but not if they're "foreign?" (Nevermind the millions of people foreign Muslims forcibly conquered as the caliphate expanded....)

I just don't see how Muslims can support the ICU and oppose the American-led invasion of Iraq, or Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza—unless, of course, you're willing to admit you have a double standard in that you're okay with Muslims violently taking over countries and imposing their ideologies, but not Jews or secularists. For my part, I oppose anyone violently taking over any country or imposing unpopular ideologies.
Qingu process this; citizens of a country in turmoil have the right to depose/fight/counter/topple the regime/individuals responsible for the conflict or those fueling it. They have the right to restore order when those who should be enforcing it are bickering amongst themselves especially when it's a 'decade and a half'' of bickering. They have the right to protect themselves and those who wish to be protected by them

Your analogy with the foreign invasion of Iraq and the Islamic revolution of Somalia is illogical. If the Coalition forces had trained 200k Iraqi soldiers (who are legally still citizens of Iraq) and they had toppled Saddam then this analogy would make sense since it's their country but this didn't happen it was a foreign force that toppled him and it's a foreign force that's currently occupying Iraq. In Somalia after a decade of screw ups by successive Transitional governments a movement developed from the ground up which successfully restored order ,revitalized and rehabilitated both infrastructure and civilians( see the article by Cedric Barnes & Harun Hassan in this topic)

If you still cannot see why the ordinary people would support a group that actually uplifted the living conditions of the average individual in Somalia and were their fellow country men and women but today with tooth and nail opposse a foreign force who do not have their best wishes at heart but instead are serving foreign interests then my friend this discussion ends here since i'm not interested in ad nauseum debates

:w:
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Cognescenti
12-12-2007, 03:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
:sl:


Cognescenti,Cognescenti,Cognescenti there is no compulsory or a specific 'rule' that says you have to 'reply' to 'my' posts, it really doesn't matter to me, so next time just remember if you don't feel like it..don't submit! cause that reply reeks of laziness:sunny:

:w:
:D :D Well, you may say lazy. I say concise. It is true that Somalia has been messed up by foreign interventions (Italy, Russia). Now, there is again a "foreign" intervention (jihadi money).

That they IC helped to subdue the cynnical warlords is a good thing, but if they really were such a populist organization how is they are unable to resist the barely capable Ethiopian army.
Reply

Qingu
12-13-2007, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
@Qingu


American Invasion of Iraq= Illegal foreign invasion
Secular Jewish takeover of Palestine= illegal settlements built by Europeans!

Islamic Courts= Grassroots Somali movement that led a revolt against the Warlods who controlled Somalia for the past 17 years!
Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this? :)

Secondly, how is Islamic Courts attempting to impose " unpopular ideology"?

You have statistics to show what percentage of Somalis are against them or not?
Statistics? From Somalia? Ha!

If their ideology wasn't unpopular, they wouldn't need to use violence, assassinations, and open warfare to impose it.
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DAWUD_adnan
12-13-2007, 07:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this? :)


Statistics? From Somalia? Ha!

If their ideology wasn't unpopular, they wouldn't need to use violence, assassinations, and open warfare to impose it.
Qingu

You do not know how much I agree with you, these people are not what they claim, they said ALL who migrated are disbelievers and that all of us have betrayed our religion, Lies, all lies. They are Hypocrites may Allah Destroy them Ameen!
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Omar_Mukhtar
12-13-2007, 12:37 PM
quote:Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?

you need to ask yourself that because I fail to see what this has to do with the discussion! You are going around in circles, next you might start talking about the Roman of invasion by Hannibal!:D So let us keep it simple!

1. I.C.U is/was a popular Somali organisation that received support from a large number of Somalis! ALbeit not ALL Somalis!Nevertheless, you are just being biased when you say " deeply" unpopular" Hell yeah, sum ppl hated them, but again not all hated. So there goes your deeply unpopular theory out of the window!

2. Your next contention is why did they need to use violence as means of taking power? Well again mate that is very simple, Somalia was/is an poor African country run by armed warlords and other neighbouring countries.Thus everybody is armed and ppl come to power via the gun and the bullet. This isn't Sweden or SWitzerland!

3. The second reason is simple, the reason they ae fighting is because Somalia is under occupation! Occupation breeds resistance!

If you can prove to me that:

1. I.C.U were deeply unpopular
2. They were mainly foreigners
3. And their war is similar to the foreign intervention of Iraq and Afghanistan go ahead!

Otherwise, let us discuss the Muslim invasion of North Africa:D
Reply

Qingu
12-14-2007, 05:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
quote:Where does "Muslim invasions of North Africa, Spain, and India" fit into this?

you need to ask yourself that because I fail to see what this has to do with the discussion! You are going around in circles, next you might start talking about the Roman of invasion by Hannibal!:D So let us keep it simple!
Someone had said any invasion and occupation by a foreign power was wrong. I then asked if he thought the many Muslim invasions and occupations throughout history was wrong.

you are just being biased when you say " deeply" unpopular"
"Deeply"? I checked my posts and never said that. Please do not put words into my mouth.

I only judged the level of their unpopularity based on their need to use violence to come to power. Popular movements do not require violence to take control.

2. Your next contention is why did they need to use violence as means of taking power? Well again mate that is very simple, Somalia was/is an poor African country run by armed warlords and other neighbouring countries.Thus everybody is armed and ppl come to power via the gun and the bullet. This isn't Sweden or SWitzerland!
So you agree that a lot of other people (who also have guns) oppose the ICU?

3. The second reason is simple, the reason they ae fighting is because Somalia is under occupation! Occupation breeds resistance!
First of all, the ICU came to power before Ethiopia occupied.

Secondly, Ethiopia only occupied Somalia after the ICU essentially declared war on them.

Generally, when you start a war with someone and you lose, badly, you get occupied.

If you can prove to me that:

1. I.C.U were deeply unpopular
2. They were mainly foreigners
3. And their war is similar to the foreign intervention of Iraq and Afghanistan go ahead!
Since I never made any of those claims, I fail to see what bearing this would have on our discussion.

Otherwise, let us discuss the Muslim invasion of North Africa:D
Let's. The Muslims invaded North Africa to spread their ideology, much like the Americans recently invaded Iraq. Let's say you were living in North Africa in the 900's AD. Would you support a resistance group of native north African polytheists fighting against their Muslim occupiers?

After all, you seem to be saying that resistance is always okay if your country is being occupied.
Reply

DAWUD_adnan
12-14-2007, 07:26 AM
Man, everyone keeps talking about this ICU, they only want,to control the country they do not care about any of its people, they may say they are for the muslim unition, however, they too are clan based, and most of the people who support them are people who:

A: Are siding with them because they are FOR clan domination.
B:People who want to destroy somalia, (Eritrea)
C:Poeple Ignorant of the situation of somalia( mind you, this 'ICU' is VERY evil why?

let me ask you a question, would you swear in the name of Allah, that all of those who fled the country by the mercy of Allah, have (Astagfirullah for typing this but i have to expose the evil).

URINATED ON THE QURAN??

That's what they said and SWORE ON , and check this out, their own families and kids are in the US, while they lead a the war with kids( who are FORCED to do it) who arent even their own, bottom line....THESE PEOPLE ARE EVIL !
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-14-2007, 08:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Someone had said any invasion and occupation by a foreign power was wrong. I then asked if he thought the many Muslim invasions and occupations throughout history was wrong.
Which age do you live in? The age of Empires is over, today there are supposed to be International rules where members of the ''UN'' cannot and are not ''allowed'' to invade another sovereign country

I only judged the level of their unpopularity based on their need to use violence to come to power. Popular movements do not require violence to take control.
The American revolution involved violence yet to call that movement a unpopular one because of their use of rifles makes you a naive individual who lives in a non realistic world

Secondly, Ethiopia only occupied Somalia after the ICU essentially [i]declared war on them.
Liar! they were allready present in Baidoa claiming to protect a fantasy Somali government so again please educate yourself on this conflict you look ignorant when you make those type of comments

Generally, when you start a war with someone and you lose, badly, you get occupied.
They never declared war on Ethiopia before there incursion into Somalia and when Ethiopian soldiers entered Baidoa the ICU called for their expulsion

"I am calling on the Somali people to wage a holy war against Ethiopians in Baidoa-Source
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AHMED_GUREY
12-14-2007, 08:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DAWUD_adnan
Man, everyone keeps talking about this ICU, they only want,to control the country they do not care about any of its people,
And this government with it's foreign mercenaries does? The International community does?

Who destroyed the Warlords? Fake government? No!! the Islamic courts?? YES!!!

who re-opened the airports after a decade? the fake government? NO!! The Islamic courts? YES!! see for yourself: Story

Who re-opened the country's seaports after a decade? the fake government?? NO!! The Islamic courts?? YES!! see for yourself:Story

Who destroyed the country's piracy problem? the fake government?? NO!! (piracy is again brisk business off the Somali coast) The Islamic courts? YES!! see for yourself:Story

Who made it possible for Women,children and Elders to walk safely in their neighbourhoods? the fake Government?? NO!! (they are shelling whole residential areas with heavy artillery!!) The Islamic courts?? Yes!!!! see for yourself: Story

Who curbed the destruction of Somalia's Trees and wildlife? the fake government?? NO!! The Islamic courts?? YES!! see for yourself:Story

They have done more for the Somali people in a period of 6 months than 14 transitional governments have done in a decade so please brother do not spread lies for i will expose your agenda for what it really is.

If you continue with these lies accompanied by neither sources or references i will call for a moderator to intervene against this sinister slander
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-14-2007, 08:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Cognescenti
:D :D Well, you may say lazy. I say concise.
Lazy lazy lazy:sunny:

That they IC helped to subdue the cynnical warlords is a good thing, but if they really were such a populist organization how is they are unable to resist the barely capable Ethiopian army.
The warlords didn't controll a 'standing army' or anything close, the Islamic courts themselves were militaristically speaking only in their infancy if Somalia's standing army was still intact todays reality would have been different.
Reply

Qingu
12-15-2007, 02:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
The warlords didn't controll a 'standing army' or anything close, the Islamic courts themselves were militaristically speaking only in their infancy if Somalia's standing army was still intact todays reality would have been different.
How would it have been different? Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs and resorting to suicide tactics, they would have somehow been able to conquer Ethiopia's American-trained and financed army?

As far as I can tell, Muslims have not been able to win any wars without relying on one superpower or another. What would have been different about Somalia?
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-15-2007, 04:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
How would it have been different?
A Somalia with it's standing army means Ethiopia will stay firmly in it's borders and they would never dream about making the same adventures you see today. Knowing 50% of Ethiopia's population would be manipulated by the Somali government into rebellion that's a fact!

Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs and resorting to suicide tactics, they would have somehow been able to conquer Ethiopia's American-trained and financed army? As far as I can tell, Muslims have not been able to win any wars without relying on one superpower or another. What would have been different about Somalia?
So invading a country's who army has disintergrated should be viewed as 'bravery'? and not simple cowardice which it really is, is that what your saying? They defeated a small Islamic militia supported by locals and ranked by young men who neither had the military training or equipment of an Army there only wish was to bring back stability and they succeeded in bringing down the warlords defeating a national army is not realistic

fact is Somalia invaded 'Ethiopia with a Standing army' and completly destroyed it and occupied them for a year and there was nothing they could do about it, untill Soviet soldiers turned the tide for them so that's a big difference!
Reply

Qingu
12-15-2007, 04:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
A Somalia with it's standing army means Ethiopia will stay firmly in it's borders and they would never dream about making the same adventures you see today. Knowing 50% of Ethiopia's population would be manipulated by the Somali government into rebellion that's a fact!
And this is a fact you're proud of as a Muslim?

So invading a country's who army has disintergrated should be viewed as 'bravery'?
When on earth did I say anyone in this stupid conflict is brave?

They defeated a small Islamic militia supported by locals and ranked by young men who neither had the military training or equipment of an Army there only wish was to bring back stability and they succeeded in bringing down the warlords defeating a national army is not realistic
So instead of surrendering to a superior force, you're advocating the ICU retreating into the shadows and striking out with suicide bombings against soldiers and civilians, with the intent of making people so scared that they'll eventually submit to their rulership?

And honestly, who started this conflict? The ICU basically declared war against Ethiopia as soon as they came to power. You're acting as if Ethiopia invaded out of the blue. If the ICU knew they couldn't win against an American-backed national army they shouldn't have stupidly provoked them.

fact is Somalia invaded 'Ethiopia with a Standing army' and completly destroyed it and occupied them for a year and there was nothing they could do about it, untill Soviet soldiers turned the tide for them so that's a big difference!
Who cares? Like you said, as soon as a superpower backed them, they failed. This is a common theme in modern Islamic history, is it not? The only Muslim armies that manage to win wars are the ones that sell out to America or the Soviet Union.

You'd hope the rest of the Muslims would realize that maybe, just maybe, warfare and violence are not the best ways to achieve power and influence in the modern world.
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-15-2007, 05:50 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
And this is a fact you're proud of as a Muslim?
Red Herring if you can't process my post ask me and i will explain it to you step by step do not divert!

When on earth did I say anyone in this stupid conflict is brave?
Qingu said:Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs

''Tails between their legs'' = Cowardism

I like any individual with a logical mind deduced that those on the opposite side of the spectrum in your eyes must then be ''brave''.

Don't blame me i'm working with what your giving me

So instead of surrendering to a superior force,
Again you display your ignorance on this conflict should i classify you under the same term you classified this conflict?

The Islamic courts left the Capital without engaging Government/Ethiopian troops to spare the city of Urban warfare which the civilian population hadn't experienced in the 6 months of ICU rule

had The ICU known how little this government cares about it's own people in advance they would have made a stand there since destruction is what the International backed government brought and today there losing more territory to the Islamic courts

you're advocating the ICU retreating into the shadows and striking out with suicide bombings against soldiers and civilians,
Please suicide bombings don't occur on a daily basis in Somalia

-The Islamist-led resistance in Somalia is growing in scale and aggression, with insurgents openly taking on Ethiopian troops and African Union peacekeepers in the capital Mogadishu,

-Several experts interviewed by the Guardian say that the insurgents are becoming more powerful. A military analyst and a western diplomat to Somalia, neither of whom wished to be named, warned that the angry mood and conditions that allowed an Islamist movement to defeat a gang of warlords and take power in Mogadishu last year were returning. "We are on a merry-go-round and it's back to 2006," said the analyst. "The insurgents are gaining not only in physical strength, but in moral strength too."
-Source


with the intent of making people so scared that they'll eventually submit to their rulership?
You mean banning the media? like the the International backed government did and is still doing:Story

You mean banning the Hijab? like the International backed government?: Story

You mean actuall warnings like the ones made by the Western Backed President?:

Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed Tuesday exhorted Mogadishu residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns -Source

let's change the background;

Canadian Prime minister Stephen Harper Tuesday exhorted Quebecan residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns

another one:

Spanish President José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero Tuesday exhorted Basque residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns

World wide condemnations would have followed these warnings but hey this is Africa, who cares right? Indeed.

And honestly, who started this conflict?
Now you want me do your homework for you? :D

The ICU basically declared war against Ethiopia as soon as they came to power.
Proof it! i dare you!

You're acting as if Ethiopia invaded out of the blue. If the ICU knew they couldn't win against an American-backed national army they shouldn't have stupidly provoked them.
09 December 2006 - Ethiopia has acknowledged sending in several hundred military trainers, and has an undetermined number of soldiers in Somalia to protect the interim government.
-Source

For months it was denied by the Ethiopian government that there was a troop presence in the substitute capital of the Somali government(Baidoa) the Islamic courts called this denial a farce and they were vindicated by a UN report that stated 8000 Ethiopian soldiers were in Baidoa

this report discredited the lies of there only being a 'few hundred trainers'.

Who cares?
You care! or else you wouldn't be here trying so hard to get under my skin the fact that you have failed to do this and the fact that i have di-sected and refuted every part of your illogical replies bothers you alot doesn't it?:D
Reply

Qingu
12-15-2007, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
Red Herring if you can't process my post ask me and i will explain it to you step by step do not divert!
Why did you say Somalia would manipulate Ethiopia's citizens into rebellion if they had a standing army?

Qingu said:Instead of the ICU instantly retreating with their tails between their legs

''Tails between their legs'' = Cowardism

I like any individual with a logical mind deduced that those on the opposite side of the spectrum in your eyes must then be ''brave''.

Don't blame me i'm working with what your giving me
It sounds like you need a remedial logic class. Implying "A" is a coward does not mean the enemy of "A" is the opposite of a coward.

Again you display your ignorance on this conflict should i classify you under the same term you classified this conflict?

The Islamic courts left the Capital without engaging Government/Ethiopian troops to spare the city of Urban warfare which the civilian population hadn't experienced in the 6 months of ICU rule

had The ICU known how little this government cares about it's own people in advance they would have made a stand there since destruction is what the International backed government brought and today there losing more territory to the Islamic courts
Ah, of course. It wasn't a retreat, they were bravely running away.

What do you think would have happened if they made a stand? I think they would have suffered heavy losses and potentially have been wiped out. You can portray their retreat as noble, but it's hard for me to believe they had any aspirations in mind above self-preservation. Especially since they continue to battle people in Mogadishu.

Please suicide bombings don't occur on a daily basis in Somalia

-The Islamist-led resistance in Somalia is growing in scale and aggression, with insurgents openly taking on Ethiopian troops and African Union peacekeepers in the capital Mogadishu,
I thought you said they retreated from the capital so that this wouldn't happen.

-Several experts interviewed by the Guardian say that the insurgents are becoming more powerful. A military analyst and a western diplomat to Somalia, neither of whom wished to be named, warned that the angry mood and conditions that allowed an Islamist movement to defeat a gang of warlords and take power in Mogadishu last year were returning. "We are on a merry-go-round and it's back to 2006," said the analyst. "The insurgents are gaining not only in physical strength, but in moral strength too."
-Source
What's your point? The same can be said about al Qaeda, who—like the ICU—are incapable of winning a war and are forced to rely on ambushes and suicide bombings.

You mean banning the media? like the the International backed government did and is still doing:Story
Do you think I like the current Somali government? (or lack thereof).

There's that logical fallacy of yours again: you seem to think that being critical of one side means I like the other side.

You mean banning the Hijab? like the International backed government?: Story

You mean actuall warnings like the ones made by the Western Backed President?:

Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf Ahmed Tuesday exhorted Mogadishu residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns -Source

let's change the background;

Canadian Prime minister Stephen Harper Tuesday exhorted Quebecan residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns

another one:

Spanish President José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero Tuesday exhorted Basque residents to help fight insurgents or suffer in government crackdowns

World wide condemnations would have followed these warnings but hey this is Africa, who cares right? Indeed.
See above. The situation in Somalia is terrible, and the current government should be condemned. I just fail to see how the ICU is any better, or why you insist that they have the moral high ground (though I suspect it has something to do with them being Muslims)

Proof it! i dare you!
November 20: ICU ambushes and kills 6 Ethiopians in Mogadishu:
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/...EN_Somalia.php

November 30: ICU ambushes Ethiopian convoy in Somalia, killing 20:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6159059.stm

Big surprise: Ethiopia counterattacks. Then ICU declares jihad.

09 December 2006 - Ethiopia has acknowledged sending in several hundred military trainers, and has an undetermined number of soldiers in Somalia to protect the interim government.
-Source

For months it was denied by the Ethiopian government that there was a troop presence in the substitute capital of the Somali government(Baidoa) the Islamic courts called this denial a farce and they were vindicated by a UN report that stated 8000 Ethiopian soldiers were in Baidoa

this report discredited the lies of there only being a 'few hundred trainers'.
So their solution to this was to ambush and kill those soldiers, then declaring jihad when the inevitable counterattack occured? What a brilliant idea—brilliant and so upstandingly moral.



You care! or else you wouldn't be here trying so hard to get under my skin the fact that you have failed to do this and the fact that i have di-sected and refuted every part of your illogical replies bothers you alot doesn't it?:D
I do care, about this conflict and about the millions of innocent people who are affected by it.

What I said was that I didn't care about your meaningless hypothetical: "If Somalia had a standing army."

I don't care that you think the Muslims could beat the God-****ed Ethiopians, if only there was a caliphate, or if only the Americans didn't fund their enemies, or if only this or if only that or whatever. It doesn't matter. This is the reality of the world—and the reality of the world tells me that violence and warfare is not solving anything in Somalia. What does it tell you?
Reply

Omar_Mukhtar
12-16-2007, 07:28 AM
It tells us that Somalis will continue to defend their land from this illegal invasion, no matter how poor, weak and disunited they are! We are not saying that violence is a means to attaining everything or even anything. But it is unaccpetable that Muslims should produce scientific theories as to why they should defend their lands against colonisation, occupation, rape and ransacking of their holy places!And that is that
Reply

AHMED_GUREY
12-16-2007, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Qingu
Why did you say Somalia would manipulate Ethiopia's citizens into rebellion if they had a standing army?
A Somalia with a standing army means Ethiopia doesn't have a ''situation'' it can exploit without suffering immense damage and eventual disintergration. This adventure has more to do with covering up the human rights abuses going on in multiple parts of Ethiopia itself. If Eritrea was in the same unfortunate situation Somalia was in before the 'illegal invasion' they would have been victims of this dictatorship

Second Somalia would have funded dozens of opposition groups that want nothing to do with this Dictatorship (see old post) as it has done in the past (the current government of Ethiopia were residents of Mogadishu themselves)

my point is you have two unpopular Presidents cleverly using the scare-card ''terrorists'' ''Al-Q safe haven'' to receive funding,international protection to prolong their disgusting Dictatorships. Traditionally in Somalia the military would step in and depose the government but unfortunately this establishment collapsed

It sounds like you need a remedial logic class. Implying "A" is a coward does not mean the enemy of "A" is the opposite of a coward.
Granted! but let me ask you this; are the enemies of ''A'' cowards? or brave? or simply opportunistic vultures?

Ah, of course. It wasn't a retreat, they were bravely running away.

What do you think would have happened if they made a stand? I think they would have suffered heavy losses and potentially have been wiped out.
Heavy losses of course loss of territory without doubt again they were not a national army there ranks consisted of young men trying to get their country back on it's feet. They would have held their own the way their holding their own today acquiring more territory in the process

You can portray their retreat as noble, but it's hard for me to believe they had any aspirations in mind above self-preservation. Especially since they continue to battle people in Mogadishu.
Qingu please do not distort the reality on the ground, it's not them that is shelling whole residential neighbourhoods with tank attillery. most of their mortar attacks is in the Presidential vicinity of Villa Somalia

I thought you said they retreated from the capital so that this wouldn't happen.
read again: A military analyst and a western diplomat to Somalia, neither of whom wished to be named, warned that the angry mood and conditions that allowed an Islamist movement to defeat a gang of warlords and take power in Mogadishu last year were returning.

result is:

The insurgents are gaining not only in physical strength, but in moral strength too

Qingu if the Islamic courts are really 'that bad' why are there ranks swelling in numbers? why would a population growing in anger turn to them and not the government? ponder on this please before your reply.

Do you think I like the current Somali government? (or lack thereof).

There's that logical fallacy of yours again: you seem to think that being critical of one side means I like the other side.
If North Korea attacks South Korea in 2008 and let say the US doesn't react evendo it reacted and defended Taiwan against China on Christmas eve 2007(play with me), their complete silence would be seen as a condonation of NK's adventure! why should this be different on a individual level?

your completly silence regarding the attrocities committed by this government yet you demonize the ICU ad nauseum hence i showed you the resume of this dictatorship sponsored by the west. Are you saying you honestly cannot see why i would find your one-sided criticism suspicious?.

The situation in Somalia is terrible, and the current government should be condemned.
Well said!:sunny:

I just fail to see how the ICU is any better, or why you insist that they have the moral high ground (though I suspect it has something to do with them being Muslims)
If you really interested why i would take the ICU over this government any day of the century please check the links on this post

I do not have time to adress the rest of your post so be patient and i will answer it!

:w:
Reply

Qingu
12-16-2007, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Omar_Mukhtar
It tells us that Somalis will continue to defend their land from this illegal invasion, no matter how poor, weak and disunited they are! We are not saying that violence is a means to attaining everything or even anything. But it is unaccpetable that Muslims should produce scientific theories as to why they should defend their lands against colonisation, occupation, rape and ransacking of their holy places!And that is that
I don't disagree that people should defend their lands against such things.

I disagree that violent revolution in the face of a superior military force, followed by ambushes and suicide bombings, is an effective strategy to do so, or a moral strategy.

I mean, this should be relatively obvious: look at how well this strategy is working for the Palestinians in the past 50 years.

Nonviolent resistance, on the other hand, freed India of Great Britain and helped American blacks to achieve many civil rights. Look at the current situation in Myanmar. It's terrible, they are ruled by a brutal military dictatorship—but they have the world's sympathy thanks to nonviolent resistance. Do you really think the Burmese would be better off if the monks started blowing themselves up and ambushing military leaders?

The world community is not unsympathetic to the struggles of Somalians and I believe the UN or NATO offered to send an international peacekeeping force to Somalia—but the ICU rejected it.
Reply

Qingu
12-16-2007, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by AHMED_GUREY
A Somalia with a standing army...
I still think this is a meaningless hypothetical. Somalia doesn't even have a government. It hasn't had a government for decades.

You might as well hypothesize about what would happen if Somalia had nuclear weapons or an army of robot bees with lasers.

my point is you have two unpopular Presidents cleverly using the scare-card ''terrorists'' ''Al-Q safe haven'' to receive funding,international protection to prolong their disgusting Dictatorships. Traditionally in Somalia the military would step in and depose the government but unfortunately this establishment collapsed
I agree with you—the current Somali "government" is corrupt and is not tenable in the long run.

This in no way justifies the Islamic Courts' behavior. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Granted! but let me ask you this; are the enemies of ''A'' cowards? or brave? or simply opportunistic vultures?
Never having been in a war, I don't feel that I'm qualified to judge the cowardice or bravery of any individual person fighting. (Honestly, I don't really care about individual bravery in warfare, since I'm basically a pacifist and I think these are hollow virtues more often than not invoked to force people to die for stupid causes.)

I will say that politically and strategically, the Ethiopians certainly appear to be "opportunistic vultures," and the ICU certainly appeared to run away with their tail between their legs in the face of overwhelming military force.

Heavy losses of course loss of territory without doubt again they were not a national army there ranks consisted of young men trying to get their country back on it's feet. They would have held their own the way their holding their own today acquiring more territory in the process
Sounds like gang warfare in the American ghettos.

Qingu please do not distort the reality on the ground, it's not them that is shelling whole residential neighbourhoods with tank attillery. most of their mortar attacks is in the Presidential vicinity of Villa Somalia
They are still killing innocent people and civilians.

read again: A military analyst and a western diplomat to Somalia, neither of whom wished to be named, warned that the angry mood and conditions that allowed an Islamist movement to defeat a gang of warlords and take power in Mogadishu last year were returning.

result is:

The insurgents are gaining not only in physical strength, but in moral strength too
So is al-Qaeda. So is the insurgency in Iraq. What exactly is your point? Radical Muslims have great propaganda, and using military force against them gives them even better propaganda ("They are infidels attacking Islam, we must fight holy war!").

Qingu if the Islamic courts are really 'that bad' why are there ranks swelling in numbers? why would a population growing in anger turn to them and not the government? ponder on this please before your reply.
In Rome, the Romans felt threatened by the new religion of Christianity and often persecuted them, outlawing their gatherings and occasionally killing them or making them fight in the Colosseum.

Rather than deter the Christians, this actually helped to increase their numbers, because it gave them wonderful propaganda—because everyone wanted to follow Jesus' example and become a "martyr."

In modern Japan, there was until very recently a death cult called Aum Shinrikyo. These people were strongly opposed by the Japanese government, but like the Christians they seemed to thrive on this opposition, claiming they were persecuted for their true beliefs. Their numbers continued to swell until they killed a bunch of people on a subway train and the hammer came down on them.

Death-obsessed religions, like Christianity, Islam, and a number of modern cults, thrive on persecution. It gives their recruiters an urgency that they can yell at people with. Certainly you don't think that early Christianity or modern death cults swell in numbers because of any merit these ideologies have—why on earth would you then suggest this is the case for the ICU?

If North Korea attacks South Korea in 2008 and let say the US doesn't react evendo it reacted and defended Taiwan against China on Christmas eve 2007(play with me), their complete silence would be seen as a condonation of NK's adventure! why should this be different on a individual level?
I think this hits at the central misunderstanding between us.

I am not saying the Somalis should do nothing in the face of oppression.

I am saying there are better ways to act out against oppression than declaring jihad and blowing yourself up. That way gets you nowhere.

Nonviolent resistance? That's worked incredibly well for a number of countries and movements.

To answer your question above: okay, what if NK or China attacked one of America's allies? What would you advocate America doing—invading North Korea? Because that strategy worked so well in Vietnam and Iraq? Nuking China? Because they wouldn't respond with their arsenal of nuclear weapons?

Violence is only one way to respond to oppression. The reason there hasn't been a world war in the last 50 years isn't because conflict has ceased between all countries. It's because rival countries have found better ways to fight their conflicts. America didn't win the cold war by blowing crap up, we won through economics. Embargoes and sanctions are the new weapons of war. This is the reason why nonviolent resistance can be so effective: it seizes on the economic might of a country.

your completly silence regarding the attrocities committed by this government yet you demonize the ICU ad nauseum hence i showed you the resume of this dictatorship sponsored by the west. Are you saying you honestly cannot see why i would find your one-sided criticism suspicious?.
This thread is about the ICU, not about the current Somali government.

Also, I'm assuming everyone on this forum agrees that the current Somali government has committed atrocities, so I'm not sure what my agreement or dwelling on the issue would add to the discussion.

If you really interested why i would take the ICU over this government any day of the century please check the links on this post
But you are again ignoring the reality. Maybe in an ideal world the ICU would have been a sustainable government (though I certainly would never want to live there and I doubt you would move there if you had the choice).

But the reality of the situation is that the ICU is not a sustainable government, because of their incredibly aggressive policies towards the Ethiopians. We can debate about the justice of it all day, but the fact of the matter is that when the ICU ambushed those Ethiopian convoys and killed all those soldiers, then declared holy war, they provoked a war with Ethiopia—a war which they cannot win.

Their foreign policy is just as stupid as George Bush Jr.'s. And because of it they endanger the people living in Somalia just as much as any warlord.

And this doesn't even deal with their record on human rights, which we can probably just agree to disagree with for now (obviously, I am not a fan of Shariah law.)
Reply

Omar_Mukhtar
12-23-2007, 06:08 PM
Palestine is a different issue altogether, this is a place were the Israeli soldiers call their home and it is a literal prison. The Israelis can control many aspects of Palestinian movement. But still, some ppl attribute Israel's withdrawl from the Gaza due to Hamas attacks, but this is debateable. Hezbollah has succeded twice in removing them from occupying South Lebanon with the use of guerilla warfare. But we are not talking about Israelis here. These are Ethiopian concripts and poor men who are mostly forced to fight by a dictatorship due to one reason or another. They are not Israelis who believe that if they are defeated, they will lose their "homeland". Yes, violence is not always a means to attaining your goals. However, sometimes it is forced upon people. As I said, Ethiopia is not Israel and they will leave Somalia sooner or later. Thus far, they have completely failed in their ultimate mission and they have no real means of sustaining a prolonged occupation of Somalia. Somalis are willing to negotiate and discuss sending peacekeepers to their country, but they(some of them) will not accept their country to be occupied, just as Ethiopians wouldn't preaching " non violence" if their capital city was occupied by Somalis.
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ricardo_sousa
01-02-2008, 05:08 PM
Did anyone ever think that this war maybe is because Ethiopia wants access to the sea and the only way to get it is "conquering" land of Somalia?

We can see from this map the situation:

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Whatsthepoint
01-02-2008, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ricardo_sousa
Did anyone ever think that this war maybe is because Ethiopia wants access to the sea and the only way to get it is "conquering" land of Somalia?

We can see from this map the situation:

If I were Ethiopia, I'd conquer Djibouti.
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ricardo_sousa
01-02-2008, 05:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If I were Ethiopia, I'd conquer Djibouti.
but Somalia and Ethiopia have had problems for many years and a disputed border line. Not to say that Somalia is not "protected" by the USA :X. And Somalia looks big, but isn´t a big match to Ethiopia. The international community looks to this conflict lot more "opened" that a supposed one against Djibouti. It is my opinion about this conflict.

P.S: don´t even start with the religion war again, because Djibouti is also a majority muslin country.
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Omar_Mukhtar
01-02-2008, 07:01 PM
Ethiopia had port acess in Eritrea, but ever since Eritrean independence Ethiopia has been landlocked. But they use the ports of Djibouti and Somaliland(enclave in Somalia). Djibouti is home to American troops and that's were they launched the attacks from last year. So I guess an invasion from any country is out of the question....
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Intisar
01-02-2008, 07:54 PM
Hm, don't they already have access to Berbera port?
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seeker_of_ilm
01-02-2008, 08:08 PM
:sl:

As far as I know, Ethiopia relies on the port of Djibouti and port of Berbera for exports.

Heres more info on the subject, pretty interesting:

http://www.ports.co.za/didyouknow/ar...1_21_3058.html

:w:
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