format_quote Originally Posted by
Muezzin
The Iraq story you posted was shocking, but not surprising, since Iraq under the leadership of Saddam Hussein never exactly held itself out as a civilised nation. Disgusting behaviour in building and using such torture chambers.
It is pretty shocking, imagine being the guys who walked in on that room, like a seen right out of that movie
Hostel
format_quote Originally Posted by
Muezzin
However, I don't understand how one can condemn torture, while simultaneously turning a blind eye to it when it does occur, or else justifying it in light of a positive result. If I've misunderstood you, I do apologise.
I am not turning a blind eye to it, I do not know what was on those tapes and probably never will... I dont condone the CIA using torture, however I dont believe torture is being knocked around a bit or simulated drowning or listening to music or being deprived of food or water. To me torture is like what I posted above, or the removal of fingers or other extremites, burning, cutting, ripping, freezing, any sexual assault, anything to do with waste material, etc. As I said I am not turning a blind eye, but I should also add that I am not an ignorant fool either, whatever was on those tapes I am sure was nothing I would be proud of, however as I said secrecy for that agency and others is a must if our country is to remain safe. I expect that the government has a system of checks and balances that are in place to prevent anything over the top from happening, if that system is flawed and if the ones in these tapes got away with something they shouldnt have I would blame those in the system for not handling it internally or stopping it from happening all together, not the CIA for trying to remain private in this age of media frenzy.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Muezzin
The logic of 'The Ends Justify the Means' is still very disturbing indeed. Especially when certain people don't even want to know what goes on because they believe that it's for 'the greater good'. Secrecy for the sake of national security is one thing. Wilful ignorance is quite another.
Hopefully I clarified myself above, I do believe that our government and the people within the CIA use a system of checks and balances and hopefully do not let anything get out of hand. I am sure there are instances in the present and past that would disgrace our country if they got out, but hopefully those on the inside handle these cases appropriately and I honestly believe that they do.
format_quote Originally Posted by
Muezzin
Human rights abuses and torture are two issues very close to my heart. I also understand how vengeance and even sadism are two very human reactions to tragedy, but I still see them as wrong. And I still think that, if certain countries are going to hold themselves out as civilised, they should not engage in barbarism, regardless of their enemies' behaviour. I know I'll be called some sort of pansy liberal for saying such things, but the people who would call me such probably have severe Daddy issues and a lack of Kleenex.
Agreed
format_quote Originally Posted by
Muezzin
If there's no torture (and not torture as defined by the country perpetrating it, torture as defined by the Oxford dictionary), and no human rights abuses, then I don't have a problem. I will not turn a blind eye to such practices if they continue, no matter who perpetrates them, and no matter how many lives are saved as a result. Others can and will turn a blind eye to brutality. Bully for them. I wish I could voluntarily pull the wool over my own eyes.
If a life could be saved by "torturing" an individual who definitely has the knowledge to save an innocent but wont give the information up willfully because of some sick agenda that he/she may have, I believe I would condone the torture and even the eventual execution of this individual. However, we never know 100% if anyone really knows anything, so I agree with you in part. I say in part, because if there is a high ranking enemy combatant who is captured, and our intelligence tells us there is an impending attack in a known area, it is certain that this individual will have knowledge of the situation, at least to some extent. If it takes simulated drowning or Christina Aguilera or lack of food or water to get this information in time to save lives, I am for it. I guess it would be a sort of case by case basis thing, and more of a last resort than a first option.