Brits kick out child cremators

[barney]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...09/wafg109.xml

Two battalions of British and one of Afgan Loyalists have just decided enough is enough in Musa Qala.
So they have attacked the strongest point of Taliban oppression and now the Afgan flag flies above it. The entire force of taliban has been defeated and run off or died.

Some of their legacy of the 8 month reign their remains. Like the 15 year old boy cremated by gas cylinders for some crime "Against Islam". They closed the schools, whipped those women out of Burkhas and all their usual good stuff.

The only sad thing is that Gordon Brown visiting troops said reconstruction cant work until the Taliban "Are Gone".
They will not go. Their will always be some Jihadistic reinforcement coming to help in the misery of the Ummah there.
May Allah, (and the British and Afgan troops) protect the innocent there.

[S_87]

protect the innocent?
by bombing from above and killing indiscriminately? is that what u mean by protection?

[barney]

No, I mean by escorting children to school and disarming bombs in marketplaces, feeding the starving and clothing the naked.

[MTAFFI]

No, I mean by escorting children to school and disarming bombs in marketplaces, feeding the starving and clothing the naked.

yeah that is a good point :)

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[barney]

The last time we took this town, we handed it over to the Afgan's who were bombed back into accepting the murderers and women floggers back in.
There is some talk this time of setting up a base in the arae to protect the people for as long as neccessery.

[wilberhum]

protect the innocent?
by bombing from above and killing indiscriminately? is that what u mean by protection?

No, but then that is not what is done.
Do you always use distortion of reality to justify your opinion?

[S_87]

^ is it me thats distorting the fact that afghan has been heavily bombed? are you saying it wasnt? and if it was are you saying the bombs were absolutely precise and only caught terrorists like usama bin laden and not kids?

and women floggers? men are flogged too under shariah law if u dont like the flogging fact, maybe your problem is not with afghanistan but with islamic shariah?

and where were the marketplace bombs before the war?

[Resigned]

protect the innocent?
by bombing from above and killing indiscriminately? is that what u mean by protection?

Unfortunately for you, these threads sink when you cannot counter the irrefutable argument that the United States has demonstrated restraint in it's use of force. You have no counter to the fact that the US has spent billions upon billions of dollars to develop LESS cost effective weapons for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties. You say nothing of the recognized capability of US strategic forces to reduce the Taliban to a burning pile of ash within hours with almost no reduction of our nation power, and the restraint from using such power demonstrated by our leaders.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you say we only go to war because we are "imperialist" when you know for a fact that we have only sent troops to Afghanistan in response to an attack on our soil in spite of the financial and political cost.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you argue we wish to murder and kill and intimidate Afghanis with the truth that you cannot conjure up a reason for such action, much less an explanation for precision munitions development, reduced use of particularly effective cluster, mine and incendiary munitions, and extremely tight Rules of Engagement for US forces in battle zones.

And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you deflect any real accounting by bringing up something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Americans broadly of killing indescriminately.

Reconcile these issues please or stop posting these nonsensical messages.

Answer now, how you can say that we WISH to have civilian casualties when we have spent many times the GDP of these nations we are invading on weapons that limit such casualties.

Answer please, why is it that you excuse the Taliban's wanton murder of men, women and schoolchildren (which is, in fact, calculated and indescriminate), yet you rattle on about how the "Great Satan" is to be vilified for attempting to bring peace and order to Afghanistan.

Or, if you feel too threatened, just make a statement about the Jews controlling the media or "ignorant redneck Americans worshipping Bush" and go back to your cliff's notes to the Communist Manifesto.

[wilberhum]

^ is it me thats distorting the fact that afghan has been heavily bombed? are you saying it wasnt? and if it was are you saying the bombs were absolutely precise and only caught terrorists like usama bin laden and not kids?

and women floggers? men are flogged too under shariah law if u dont like the flogging fact, maybe your problem is not with afghanistan but with islamic shariah?

and where were the marketplace bombs before the war?

You didn't say Afghanistan have been heavily bombed did you?

Who typical, caught in a distortion, just change your story.

Why should anyone continue addressing your statements, you will surly just change them.

[Cognescenti]

Unfortunately for you, these threads sink when you cannot counter the irrefutable argument that the United States has demonstrated restraint in it's use of force. You have no counter to the fact that the US has spent billions upon billions of dollars to develop LESS cost effective weapons for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties. You say nothing of the recognized capability of US strategic forces to reduce the Taliban to a burning pile of ash within hours with almost no reduction of our nation power, and the restraint from using such power demonstrated by our leaders.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you say we only go to war because we are "imperialist" when you know for a fact that we have only sent troops to Afghanistan in response to an attack on our soil in spite of the financial and political cost.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you argue we wish to murder and kill and intimidate Afghanis with the truth that you cannot conjure up a reason for such action, much less an explanation for precision munitions development, reduced use of particularly effective cluster, mine and incendiary munitions, and extremely tight Rules of Engagement for US forces in battle zones.

And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you deflect any real accounting by bringing up something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Americans broadly of killing indescriminately.

Reconcile these issues please or stop posting these nonsensical messages.

Answer now, how you can say that we WISH to have civilian casualties when we have spent many times the GDP of these nations we are invading on weapons that limit such casualties.

Answer please, why is it that you excuse the Taliban's wanton murder of men, women and schoolchildren (which is, in fact, calculated and indescriminate), yet you rattle on about how the "Great Satan" is to be vilified for attempting to bring peace and order to Afghanistan.

Or, if you feel too threatened, just make a statement about the Jews controlling the media or "ignorant redneck Americans worshipping Bush" and go back to your cliff's notes to the Communist Manifesto.

Ouch. After that, there won't be enough left of the poor guy to fill a dustpan. Let's hope he gets a proper Islamic burial.

[barney]

It does sometimes baffle me that those who argue that the USA is "Committing Genocide" have not bothered to research in the slightest what the USA could do if it wanted to commit genocide.

Just taking the B1 fleet, only 100 strong out of a 6000 strong airforce.
The B1 fleet can in one sortie drop 42000000 pounds of high explosive. If that had landed on Kabul on day 1 and had only half the effectiveness of WW2 bombing raids of lesser intensity, then on that day 3000 people would have died and half a million would be homeless.
Then comes Day 2..........Mayby using the B52 fleet as well or a few dozen Squadrons of F15e's....

Now mayby you have a small idea of what America can do. But chooses not to. A "War against Islam" wouldnt really last very long. But America wont do that. Even under the control of a rather stupid president, it restrains itself and deliberatly targets just as carefully as the Taliban deliberatly target.
But the USAF's target is carrying RPG's in trucks and driving Technicals. The talibans target is about 4 years old and sucking their first lolipop that a westerner gave them.

Instead snipers and Close air support conducted a 6 week campaign that Broke the taliban trenches and walked the Northen Alliance into Kabul with no real bloodshed in that city save that of the people taking revenge on the Taliban.

[Bittersteel]

even after all those precautions there have been casualties during bombings.was it due to Taliban hiding in civilian homes?otherwise I cannot think of any other reason for such mistakes.

[The_Prince]

this war will never end, and its not even about the taliban. the war in afghanistan is for the poppy fields, and for the pipeline that they want to build that will run through afghanistan to pakistan for natural gas etc.

sooner or later the taliban will be in the goverment, the taliban left this town, in a month or 2 they will be back, same old same story.

[barney]

Pipeline?Umm ...run it through tajikistan? It's always the same. I remember debating Kosovo with A Liberal who said "There just after the oil" so I replied Kosovo hasnt any oil. A little while later they came back " It's the Zinc...The US is after the Zinc"
The Poppys. Ok so the west actually LIKES the heroin afganistan pumps out?

To Aziz, smart bombs are not 100% accurate and mistakes happen. The moral factor is that they are MISTAKES, as opposed to mistakenly blowing up a bunch of shoppers by standing in the middle of them squeezing bomb detonators and screaming "God is Great"

Some bombs are on target, but the intell fails. For example a wedding party was celebrating by firing dozens of automatic rifles into the sky in happyness as a USAF gunship was passing overhead. With rather predictable results.

Put it this way. If the Taliban were not killing innocent afgans by the cartload, there would be no infidels in the country other than those building stuff for the people.

[MTAFFI]

and where were the marketplace bombs before the war?

they were still in their primitive form waiting on these morons to peice them together and blow up innocent people

[Cognescenti]

this war will never end, and its not even about the taliban. the war in afghanistan is for the poppy fields, and for the pipeline that they want to build that will run through afghanistan to pakistan for natural gas etc.

sooner or later the taliban will be in the goverment, the taliban left this town, in a month or 2 they will be back, same old same story.

That is seriously delusional. Do you realize the reasons the USSR lost in Afghnaistan is because of US support for the mujahadeen?

[sameer]

That is seriously delusional. Do you realize the reasons the USSR lost in Afghnaistan is because of US support for the mujahadeen?

exactly.....get them out so they can move in. - simple.

[Cognescenti]

exactly.....get them out so they can move in. - simple.

And what was the time from the Russian exit to the US attack? I will lend a hand. The Russians left in 1989.

That is rather a sluggish example of exploiting Afghanistan's fabulous natural resources, don't you think?

I have a serious question. Does anyone here really believe the intellectually unsustainable "US Imperialism" argument as it pertains to Afghanistan? What I mean is, when among friends and someone advances such a preposterous argument, do you find yourself giggling?

[barney]

They are after the Rocks....Evryone knows it.

[aadil77]

Some bombs are on target, but the intell fails. For example a wedding party was celebrating by firing dozens of automatic rifles into the sky in happyness as a USAF gunship was passing overhead. With rather predictable results.

Put it this way. If the Taliban were not killing innocent afgans by the cartload, there would be no infidels in the country other than those building stuff for the people.

:D lol, nice example

[MTAFFI]

Unfortunately for you, these threads sink when you cannot counter the irrefutable argument that the United States has demonstrated restraint in it's use of force. You have no counter to the fact that the US has spent billions upon billions of dollars to develop LESS cost effective weapons for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties. You say nothing of the recognized capability of US strategic forces to reduce the Taliban to a burning pile of ash within hours with almost no reduction of our nation power, and the restraint from using such power demonstrated by our leaders.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you say we only go to war because we are "imperialist" when you know for a fact that we have only sent troops to Afghanistan in response to an attack on our soil in spite of the financial and political cost.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you argue we wish to murder and kill and intimidate Afghanis with the truth that you cannot conjure up a reason for such action, much less an explanation for precision munitions development, reduced use of particularly effective cluster, mine and incendiary munitions, and extremely tight Rules of Engagement for US forces in battle zones.

And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you deflect any real accounting by bringing up something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Americans broadly of killing indescriminately.

Reconcile these issues please or stop posting these nonsensical messages.

Answer now, how you can say that we WISH to have civilian casualties when we have spent many times the GDP of these nations we are invading on weapons that limit such casualties.

Answer please, why is it that you excuse the Taliban's wanton murder of men, women and schoolchildren (which is, in fact, calculated and indescriminate), yet you rattle on about how the "Great Satan" is to be vilified for attempting to bring peace and order to Afghanistan.

Or, if you feel too threatened, just make a statement about the Jews controlling the media or "ignorant redneck Americans worshipping Bush" and go back to your cliff's notes to the Communist Manifesto.

I find it truly amusing that no one has yet to be compelled to respond to this post :D

[S_87]

You didn't say Afghanistan have been heavily bombed did you?

Who typical, caught in a distortion, just change your story.

Why should anyone continue addressing your statements, you will surly just change them.

umm if you look at my first post on this thread i DID mention that.

resigned mr anti anything islamic. i see we meet again.

Unfortunately for you, these threads sink when you cannot counter the irrefutable argument that the United States has demonstrated restraint in it's use of force. You have no counter to the fact that the US has spent billions upon billions of dollars to develop LESS cost effective weapons for the sole purpose of reducing civilian casualties. You say nothing of the recognized capability of US strategic forces to reduce the Taliban to a burning pile of ash within hours with almost no reduction of our nation power, and the restraint from using such power demonstrated by our leaders.

and what difference does that make? one civilian casualty is one too many.

You cannot reconcile the fact that you say we only go to war because we are "imperialist" when you know for a fact that we have only sent troops to Afghanistan in response to an attack on our soil in spite of the financial and political cost.

yeh which is why the FBI have usama bin laden on their 10 most wanted...but NOT for 11th september... :)

You cannot reconcile the fact that you argue we wish to murder and kill and intimidate Afghanis with the truth that you cannot conjure up a reason for such action, much less an explanation for precision munitions development, reduced use of particularly effective cluster, mine and incendiary munitions, and extremely tight Rules of Engagement for US forces in battle zones.

umm whatever, you have murdered and killed and intimidated afghans and continue to indimidate who you call 'terrorists' (Gitmo) without any proof against them nor any access to the public to see the torture they are going through for merely making the mistake of being in afghanistan. and dont give us the crap that they are guilty because if they were then the evidence against them would be up on billboards. the soldiers who torture them in the name of freedom dont have a clue themselves why these people are there.
these soldiers dont have hearts.

And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you deflect any real accounting by bringing up something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Americans broadly of killing indescriminately.

accuse? or state facts?
i mean what is a taliban member? a man in afghanistan with a beard?

Reconcile these issues please or stop posting these nonsensical messages.

its you that has the habit of posting anti islamic crap my dear resigned :)

Answer now, how you can say that we WISH to have civilian casualties when we have spent many times the GDP of these nations we are invading on weapons that limit such casualties.

well maybe you should stop spending since it doesnt seem to be working anyway?

Answer please, why is it that you excuse the Taliban's wanton murder of men, women and schoolchildren (which is, in fact, calculated and indescriminate), yet you rattle on about how the "Great Satan" is to be vilified for attempting to bring peace and order to Afghanistan.

like i said, who are the taliban?
and i dont expect to hear a GOOD word regarding afghanistan because of the war. its called propaganda. the media has even acused the taliban of building poppy fields for drugs. and idiots believe it. idiots who had no knowledge that as a trying to establish shariah government that they were, the taliban declared war against the poppy growers

Or, if you feel too threatened, just make a statement about the Jews controlling the media or "ignorant redneck Americans worshipping Bush" and go back to your cliff's notes to the Communist Manifesto.

hey, you do believe everything the media says doncha. against islamists and muslims and taliban and saudi arabians and iranians, you know ur past posts elsewhere ;-)

[Cognescenti]

yeh which is why the FBI have usama bin laden on their 10 most wanted...but NOT for 11th september... :)*

*Page 57, CIA Invented OBL Manifesto.

That is painfully lame. The FBI is a law enforcement organization. They can only list an indictment which has been brought.

The conspiracy center of the brain is common to reptiles and even to dinosaurs. To the end many in the dinosaur community clung to the notion that the mammals were behind the asteroid. In a way you can't blame them, look how many of them stayed in their burrows that fateful day.

[MTAFFI]

and what difference does that make? one civilian casualty is one too many.

As is a favorite statement around here "What double standards"; on this post one is too many, if it is the Taliban or AQI doing the killing it is no big deal

yeh which is why the FBI have usama bin laden on their 10 most wanted...but NOT for 11th september... :)

Recent news as well as old has confirmed from OBL's mouth time and time again that he was responsible. I wish you could see what an ignoramous a statement like that makes you look like

umm whatever, you have murdered and killed and intimidated afghans and continue to indimidate who you call 'terrorists' (Gitmo) without any proof against them nor any access to the public to see the torture they are going through for merely making the mistake of being in afghanistan. and dont give us the crap that they are guilty because if they were then the evidence against them would be up on billboards. the soldiers who torture them in the name of freedom dont have a clue themselves why these people are there.
these soldiers dont have hearts.

This is actually very funny, since the next quote you took was :

"And when someone brings up these irreconcilable faults in your arguments, you deflect any real accounting by bringing up something entirely unrelated, try to make a statement accusing Americans broadly of killing indescriminately."

Which is exactly what you have done here. People in Gitmo are POW sorry about their luck, but they are held as prisoners. What about the Taliban holding those Koreans? Or burning children to death? At least we can say we dont do that.

accuse? or state facts?
i mean what is a taliban member? a man in afghanistan with a beard?

Yes, this is usually true, accompanied with a roadside bomb or an AK-47 and a village full of people scared for their life, then the perpetrators can probably be considered Taliban

its you that has the habit of posting anti islamic crap my dear resigned :)

What makes it anti islamic? What does that have to do with you answering with no sense?

well maybe you should stop spending since it doesnt seem to be working anyway?

yes perhaps we should use serious military force and actually kill indiscriminately as you accuse, it would cost much less money and kill much more effectively, however it is kind of sad how you would condemn all the other Muslims around the Taliban to death just to prove the point that the american military has shown extreme restraint since day 1

like i said, who are the taliban?
and i dont expect to hear a GOOD word regarding afghanistan because of the war. its called propaganda. the media has even acused the taliban of building poppy fields for drugs. and idiots believe it. idiots who had no knowledge that as a trying to establish shariah government that they were, the taliban declared war against the poppy growers

Poppy growing actually increased during the Talibans reign until 2000 and it only decreased then because of the worst drought to have hit Afghanistan in nearly a century. Notice how Taliban controlled regions are the highest opium producers in the world, what do you say about that? Seems you could be the one practicing idiocy... BY the way, you could say anything you hear is propoganda, I cant tell you how sick I am of hearing that word. Everything everyone tells you is propoganda, it is just which propoganda you choose to side with, it seems you side with the illogical and ignorant side.



Sorry for responding Resigned, I just couldnt help myself, I am sure you will make a much better meal out of this post than I did anyways :)

[barney]

One Civilian casualty is too many.

Great. Then condem the Market bombers...condem the Iraqi death squads.

Go on...
Ahh! You cant.
Weird eh?

[Rou]

:blind:

"The innocent only pay for the ignorance of the blind"

:laugh:


002.010
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

002.011
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

002.012
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

[Talha777]

I dont know if America is invading and killing Afghanis in order to make a pipeline or for natural resources. Muslims should understand who is behind these invasions of Muslim countries and forced imposition of western cultural values and immorality. Do you think Satan needs or wants oil? Muslims wake up and realize this is all out war against your RELIGION.

[wilberhum]

I dont know if America is invading and killing Afghanis in order to make a pipeline or for natural resources. Muslims should understand who is behind these invasions of Muslim countries and forced imposition of western cultural values and immorality. Do you think Satan needs or wants oil? Muslims wake up and realize this is all out war against your RELIGION.

Did you ever hear of OBL? :hmm:

Or do you just stick your head in the sand and blame it all on the Jewish controlled Media? :?

[Resigned]

Sorry for responding Resigned, I just couldnt help myself, I am sure you will make a much better meal out of this post than I did anyways :)

No problem at all MT. Yours was actually a nicely executed, clinical dissection of amani’s comments.

I did want to address your noted double standards as it applies to the killing of Afghani’s. Where the U.S. and coalition forces operate under rules of engagement that place our soldiers at risk with the explicit intention of protecting civilians, the Talibum holy warriors™ operate under the express rule that life as it existed on the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century is still a viable model. It appears to be hopeless to expect any introspection and accountability for most muslims.

In the ethically and sensibly retarded moral equivalence/"cycle of violence" game played by Arabs/Muslims and their prescription for jihad, there is actually genuine causation and parity between the deliberate murder of a civilian noncombatant and the targeted killing of those who plan and commit such vicious crimes.

It seems that most would rather see Afghanistan in ruins than rebuilt along the precepts of rule of law. The worst offenders of this ideology are the hypocrites who have ensconced themselves in their Western life styles, enjoying the fruits of freedom they enjoy while condemning the rest of their brotherhood to misery and poverty under the strictures of a 7th century legal apparatus of rumor and speculation.

This is why I feel a sense of hopelessness about the prospects for democracy in today's Middle East, which is dominated either by the oil drunk kleptocrats of the tribal Arab or by the greedy and equally brutal Arab autocrat. I was pretty optimistic at first for a place like Afghanistan because it simply makes sense that any people, if presented with the opportunity, would fight tooth and nail for freedom and the manifold benefits that come with freedom. My optimism has been tempered by the undeniable reality of the ancient Arab/muslim social order of revulsion for the non-muslim and the unholy insensate rage of jihad.

[Talha777]

Did you ever hear of OBL?

Nope never heard of that.

By the way I said not ALL Muslims are terrorist.

[Resigned]

I dont know if America is invading and killing Afghanis in order to make a pipeline or for natural resources. Muslims should understand who is behind these invasions of Muslim countries and forced imposition of western cultural values and immorality. Do you think Satan needs or wants oil? Muslims wake up and realize this is all out war against your RELIGION.

Oh my. The conspiracy theorists are running rampant.

The specific conspiracy theory you’re proposing is called the "Unocal conspiracy theory". Back in the 1990's Unocal Oil Company hired a Korean engineering company to see if an 1,100 km pipeline could be built across Afghanistan to Pakistan. The Taliban were willing to allow it but Unocal eventually changed their minds. The pipeline was never built. It still isn't being built. It probably never will be built.

The idea even resurfaced again in 2002.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/1984459.stm

With a functioning government, (in spite of the Talibums wish to destroy it), the idea actually makes sense now as Afghanistan could use the revenue for a myriad number of purposes.

However… go ahead, humor us. Make your "conspiracy theory" work. Who is building a pipeline across Afghanistan?

No pipeline - no "conspiracy theory".

[Talha777]

First of all I request you nicely to edit you post and spell Taliban correctly, otherwise I will have to report you to moderators. Please be respectful of Islam and Muslims.

Second of all, I am not promoting any conspiracy theory, if you reread what I wrote I made it clear I DO NOT think America invaded for natural resources, oil, or pipelines, etc.,

this is what I wrote:

Do you think Satan needs or wants oil? Muslims wake up and realize this is all out war against your RELIGION.

[wilberhum]

First of all I request you nicely to edit you post and spell Taliban correctly, otherwise I will have to report you to moderators. Please be respectful of Islam and Muslims.

Second of all, I am not promoting any conspiracy theory, if you reread what I wrote I made it clear I DO NOT think America invaded for natural resources, oil, or pipelines, etc.,

this is what I wrote:

Taliban respectful of Islam and Muslims. OMG

The Taliban are nothing but drug running misogynistic kidnapping killers.
I would never associate them with Islam.

[Talha777]

The Taliban feel complimented and flattered from the insults coming from a person like you.

[wilberhum]

The Taliban feel complimented and flattered from the insults coming from a person like you.

I'm sure they do. They don't deserve the respect I have shown them.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
People, people. Quit yappin and go to bed. I know for a fact that it is bedtime for several members on this thread right now.

Now what would mommy say?

GET YO A$$ INTO BED!

:sunny:

[barney]

Afganistan we have to remember has a complicated history as regards foreign invaders.
They have had Mongels, Russians , British, persians and uncle tom cobbely all wandering over their mountains for centuries.
Britain as recently as the 1920's.

Our (western) society has changed out of all recognition from those days. We know darned well that we are not in Afganistan to play The Great Game.
The afgan culture and society hasnt changed in 1000 years, how are they to know that we are not after their rocks?

[Rou]

No problem at all MT. Yours was actually a nicely executed, clinical dissection of amani’s comments.

I did want to address your noted double standards as it applies to the killing of Afghani’s. Where the U.S. and coalition forces operate under rules of engagement that place our soldiers at risk with the explicit intention of protecting civilians, the Talibum holy warriors™ operate under the express rule that life as it existed on the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century is still a viable model. It appears to be hopeless to expect any introspection and accountability for most muslims.

In the ethically and sensibly retarded moral equivalence/"cycle of violence" game played by Arabs/Muslims and their prescription for jihad, there is actually genuine causation and parity between the deliberate murder of a civilian noncombatant and the targeted killing of those who plan and commit such vicious crimes.

It seems that most would rather see Afghanistan in ruins than rebuilt along the precepts of rule of law. The worst offenders of this ideology are the hypocrites who have ensconced themselves in their Western life styles, enjoying the fruits of freedom they enjoy while condemning the rest of their brotherhood to misery and poverty under the strictures of a 7th century legal apparatus of rumor and speculation.

This is why I feel a sense of hopelessness about the prospects for democracy in today's Middle East, which is dominated either by the oil drunk kleptocrats of the tribal Arab or by the greedy and equally brutal Arab autocrat. I was pretty optimistic at first for a place like Afghanistan because it simply makes sense that any people, if presented with the opportunity, would fight tooth and nail for freedom and the manifold benefits that come with freedom. My optimism has been tempered by the undeniable reality of the ancient Arab/muslim social order of revulsion for the non-muslim and the unholy insensate rage of jihad.

Your views are yours in the ending my friend but the jihad for freedom has two sides to it always now one says that those in afganistan would be free if the were liberated however what does liberation mean? does it mean freed from the taliban and enslaved by western ideals?

Just as the west fears the ideals of islam (though not fully understanding them) as such is the feelings of islam itself being stamped out or watered down by the ideals of the west...there is an great deal of diffrence between the two and a balance can be found and that is what i would hope for...

but the war in afganistan is not one of ideals as far as the goverment of US is concerned...if it was the the only way to spread democracy would be through the use of democratic discussion..instead we have all out war? on the basis of one man being in that country?

Let us not pretend that the coalition forces are there of there own free will of course not they have been ordered there by there countries correct?

Therefore there personal aim is not to do good but to follow orders?

The decsion and true reason behind the war is known by those who give the orders and they are the bush adminstration...

Looking at the adminstration and there history and there motives not many would state that they are there to help the people of afganistan!?

There motive was at first as they stated Osama? then it changed to democracy? the story may change but the truth remains...

A land is being torn apart a people are being displaced lives are being ruined...

This is not how you spread democracy...no one asked to be saved...no one needed democracy...there was no tyrant...

As for cause for killing the innocent...it is a well known fact that civilian casualties are accepted in US military action & whilst stating that these casualties are kept at a minimumn they often are over the estimated amount.

If in a democratic country they accept civilian casualties why is it suprising that a non-democratic country would do anything diffrent? less education, less chance of a moral thinking? it is not the fault of that country and its people that they do not have the economic statis to educate more people so indeed a lack of understanding is to be expected...

Also if looking at the quran it clearly states that the innocent should not be harmed and the taliban fear that which is the law of allah, this so called war for democracy is a shambles...and follows what laws? the attack on afganistan has no basis? they did not attack USA nor did they ask for democracy?

What hypocrisy is it to attack a country and force democracy upon them??

Why do majoriity of the afgans support the taliban? wether they like the taliban or not, they realise this is not a war of freedom but one of ideals...a democratic country is not what afganistan will become more so a western controlled land with western ideals and western ways...

you want to see the future of afganistan with western control then look at turkey after world war 2 and look at what happend to the democracy that has been laid down there...and tell me...what muslims are those that reside within that land?

The west will do what it must and islam will do what it must.....as for opinions...they are but grains of sand in the wind...here for one to see and gone for another...never the same...

:w:

[Rou]

Afganistan we have to remember has a complicated history as regards foreign invaders.
They have had Mongels, Russians , British, persians and uncle tom cobbely all wandering over their mountains for centuries.
Britain as recently as the 1920's.

Our (western) society has changed out of all recognition from those days. We know darned well that we are not in Afganistan to play The Great Game.
The afgan culture and society hasnt changed in 1000 years, how are they to know that we are not after their rocks?

It has not changed and nor have they been allowed to go further with there country constant interferance has been upon afganistan as in lebanon every time they move forward a attack will happen to set them back 6 years....

If not for there rocks?....oh you mean oil.....then tell me are they there to free them?

What kind of democracy is it to force democracy upon others?

again -

002.010
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

002.011
When it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "Why, we only Want to make peace!"

002.012
Of a surety, they are the ones who make mischief, but they realise (it) not.

[Rou]

Taliban respectful of Islam and Muslims. OMG

The Taliban are nothing but drug running misogynistic kidnapping killers.
I would never associate them with Islam.

Not that im the talibans best friend but that description can be given to the ~US army as well actully we can add rapist,racist,murderers,inhuman,disrespectful,evil ...

the list could go on hey?

i mean considering the endless amount of proof against the actions of so many of the soilders out there? the actions in iraq, afgan and abu ghraib and guntanamo?

i see no muslim stamping on any bibles or flushing bibles down toilets?

i see no muslim blowing up churches or disrespecting the christian religon?

i see no army of muslims attacking western lands?

you group together few people and say they did 9/11?

you group together few guys to say they did 7/7

how many of those people are there against the west??

yet in iraq and afganistan a western army is sent? against what? they have no army?

The media band together all terroists around the world? al qaeda!??

any bomb that goes off is al qaeda?? this is no army?

it is so the west can sleep better at night...we fight not men women and children in there own land in there own homes...

no we fight insurgents...we fight terrorists....we fight...suicide bombers...

many of those that are fighting are fighting beacuse this war started before that they were getting along with there life....

[Cognescenti]

..i see no muslim stamping on any bibles or flushing bibles down toilets?
....

I hate to interrupt you when you are on a roll but you do realize the Newsweek "disrespecting the Quran" story proved to be false and had to be retracted by Newsweek.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapc...ran/index.html

Of course, I don't expect you to hear about the retraction as it doesn't fit your template. By the way, I would have to say that murdering a couple of Korean missionaries and keeping and terrorizing dozens of women hostage is a step above "stamping on Bibles".

Here is a picture of a Pakistani soldier guarding a Catholic church after the Pope's comments were misunderstood by muslims.

Maybe he was just trying to stop Muslims from converting to Catholicism, eh?

Here are some other boys just out having fun "stamping" and burning and effigy of the Pope

[Rou]

I hate to interrupt you when you are on a roll but you do realize the Newsweek "disrespecting the Quran" story proved to be false and had to be retracted by Newsweek.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/asiapc...ran/index.html

Of course, I don't expect you to hear about the retraction as it doesn't fit your template. By the way, I would have to say that murdering a couple of Korean missionaries and keeping and terrorizing dozens of women hostage is a step above "stamping on Bibles".

Here is a picture of a Pakistani soldier guarding a Catholic church after the Pope's comments were misunderstood by muslims.

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...rd_afp_416.jpg

Maybe he was just trying to stop Muslims from converting to Catholicism, eh?

Here are some other boys just out having fun "stamping" and burning and effigy of the Pope

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...igy_ap_416.jpg

indeed what a sad state hey? at least the guard is guarding the church and not shooting a missile into it hey?

also you state that the story was a fake hey perhaps that is true....

but what about the eye witness accounts of many of the innocent freed from guntanamo mate who state the quran being stamped on and urinated on? what of the offical guards dressed in riot gear rushing anyone who would try to pray? what of the cages they are kept in and not given access to water?

without keeping clean they know they will not pray??

you sho pictures of a soilder from his own country protecting a church from who? i tell you who the ignorant...in every country you have the ignorant and indeed they should be stopped from attacking a church beacuise of what the pope said...

as for the popes picture being burnt well when he states certain things the public will react....and you stated the popes words were misunderstood? i thik you should look into what he said a little more before saying that...

as i said no muslim stamps on bibles....

simple fact is every country has people who will do wrong and the goverment must step in...

but with the US adminstrations its the goverment doing these wrong things and the people having to step in....

the people who i point at for stepping on qurans and treating people as animals and raping innocents arent some random group wandring the plains with ideals they are the military of the United states!

a massive diffrence to random seprate groups who are under no flag kidnapping innocents!???

i wont blame the USA for some psyco kid within there country that shoots up a school but when its there goverment and there soilders doing these things then its the USA that should answer!

[wilberhum]

Not that im the talibans best friend but that description can be given to the ~US army as well actully we can add rapist,racist,murderers,inhuman,disrespectful,evil ...

the list could go on hey?

i mean considering the endless amount of proof against the actions of so many of the soilders out there? the actions in iraq, afgan and abu ghraib and guntanamo?

i see no muslim stamping on any bibles or flushing bibles down toilets?

i see no muslim blowing up churches or disrespecting the christian religon?

i see no army of muslims attacking western lands?

you group together few people and say they did 9/11?

you group together few guys to say they did 7/7

how many of those people are there against the west??

yet in iraq and afganistan a western army is sent? against what? they have no army?

The media band together all terroists around the world? al qaeda!??

any bomb that goes off is al qaeda?? this is no army?

it is so the west can sleep better at night...we fight not men women and children in there own land in there own homes...

no we fight insurgents...we fight terrorists....we fight...suicide bombers...

many of those that are fighting are fighting beacuse this war started before that they were getting along with there life....

What an empty bunch of junk. I had thought better of you in the days gone past.

[Resigned]

Your views are yours in the ending my friend but the jihad for freedom has two sides to it always now one says that those in afganistan would be free if the were liberated however what does liberation mean? does it mean freed from the taliban and enslaved by western ideals?
:w:

There are too many cliches to address in one post so I'll quote your introduction, only.

I certainly acknowledge it’s easy to criticize and condemn yet you offer nothing that resembles effective solutions. I make no apologies for the U.S. responding to an attack and seeking out those who aided and abetted Islamic terrorism that touched our soil.

I understand many are easily swayed by the irrational and misguided musings of someone like a Bin Laden. He spews forth the same banter we’ve heard for decades now. He, like a parade of others before him, have offered nothing new, no solutions, nothing toward the furtherance of making life better, just more of the same excuses for failure and incompetence: blame the Great Satan. You seem to buy into this.

I think we also have to acknowledge that part of Al Queda's credo ( and to include a fair size of the islamist world), is just a basic hate of all things Western, except its technology where useful for jihad purposes, because it is seen as a threat to all things Muslim and actually that brings us to the core of the clash between Islamists such as Bin Laden and the modern world...the West represents the modern world.......so there is nothing ultimately we in the West could do to overcome Bin Laden's kind of hate, nothing....except if the West were zapped off the face of the earth..... and that’s not going to happen.

So, let's just turn Afghanistan over to the Talibums and they can return that nation to the violence and injustices of life as it existed on the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century.

Super!

[barney]

Bin Laden is offering a solution Resigned.
The perfect solution of Islam, which he invited George Bush to embrace and submit to.
Once this happens, as far as him and many hundreds of millions of muslims would beleive, all problems are solved.


The fact that it wont happen and the world is far more likely to be torn literaly apart first is a sacrifice he is willing to make.

[Rou]

What an empty bunch of junk. I had thought better of you in the days gone past.

I could have easily said that about things that you have said that do not agree with, yet i gave my point of view on it instead..i had the decency to give a reply....instead of calling your view "a bunch of junk" does this not tell you something?

perhaps if instead of just not taking into account others views and ignoring them or insulting them as you have done me, you looked at it from there point of view just perhaps you would see that which you blind yourself to.

the truth...

[Rou]

There are too many cliches to address in one post so I'll quote your introduction, only.

I certainly acknowledge it’s easy to criticize and condemn yet you offer nothing that resembles effective solutions. I make no apologies for the U.S. responding to an attack and seeking out those who aided and abetted Islamic terrorism that touched our soil.

I understand many are easily swayed by the irrational and misguided musings of someone like a Bin Laden. He spews forth the same banter we’ve heard for decades now. He, like a parade of others before him, have offered nothing new, no solutions, nothing toward the furtherance of making life better, just more of the same excuses for failure and incompetence: blame the Great Satan. You seem to buy into this.

I think we also have to acknowledge that part of Al Queda's credo ( and to include a fair size of the islamist world), is just a basic hate of all things Western, except its technology where useful for jihad purposes, because it is seen as a threat to all things Muslim and actually that brings us to the core of the clash between Islamists such as Bin Laden and the modern world...the West represents the modern world.......so there is nothing ultimately we in the West could do to overcome Bin Laden's kind of hate, nothing....except if the West were zapped off the face of the earth..... and that’s not going to happen.

So, let's just turn Afghanistan over to the Talibums and they can return that nation to the violence and injustices of life as it existed on the Arabian Peninsula in the 7th century.

Super!

again you use the excuse that there is too much there for you too answer? thats a good answer to this whole issue then....

if you do not wish to answer the questions nor take into consideration the views of others then how does you talking about it make any sense if the only view you are intrested in is your own then look within yourself and see the selfishness of that view...

its quite obvious you nor understand the issue nor wish to understand it you have your view and that is what matters to you...then enjoy that view but consider it not the truth your opinion is your right but not necessarily the truth...

your take is the talibans want to destroy your way of life and the wests ideals...yet i have never seen a taliban or a afgan attack the USA? it is quite the opposite there is an army sent from the US in afganistan tearing up there country?

an offical army from a country....it is the US who is attacking a country not the afgans...

i have at least tried to give you an answer for your view all you have done is ignored my post just to almost stay in your denial of who is attackiing who....

[Rou]

Bin Laden is offering a solution Resigned.
The perfect solution of Islam, which he invited George Bush to embrace and submit to.
Once this happens, as far as him and many hundreds of millions of muslims would beleive, all problems are solved.


The fact that it wont happen and the world is far more likely to be torn literaly apart first is a sacrifice he is willing to make.

Was wandring can anyone get the script from the offer made to bush i will try to find it as im quite sure bin laden indeed did say domething about accepting islam but his terms were not to submit to islam but to just leave islamic countries?

again im not 100% on this as i did hear it quite a while back but if anyone could link the script it would help.

Oh and also bin laden does not have the power to tear apart the world his forces comapred to the forces of the USA are very small...but if we refer to the seprate groups and indaviduals who are angry with the USA at the moment after the iraq and afgan invasion totally seprate from the bin laden issue indeed maybe...

you see to band them all together and give an equal enemy to the US army (even though truly even banded together they unfortunatly do not have the combined force to equal the forces they are against) it but gives the people a view that this war is balanced and is needed...in reality you have alot of angry people in afganistan,iraq and iran who dont like the fact that USA is stepping o there soil...you see the argument is the same from there side as it is from the USA reacting to one attack on there soil...multiply 9/11 by a 1000 and that is what these people are reacting to...

before the invasion of afgan and iraq all you had were a bunch of extremists with crazy views...now mixed up with them you have fathers and sons and brothers who are not happy that there land and famalies have been torn apart...mix them up a little with trouble causers and you have hell for the innocent that live in those regions....


:w:

[genki]

unfortunately there is always innocent people who get caught in the middle. I swear if you put the politicians the very same ones calling for war on the front line their tunes will change!

[barney]

You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan," there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against youIt has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".
"I invite you to embrace Islam," The leaders of the West - especially Bush, [Tony] Blair, [Nicolas] Sarkozy and [Gordon] Brown - still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellects of human beings,"

Thats it

[Rou]

unfortunately there is always innocent people who get caught in the middle. I swear if you put the politicians the very same ones calling for war on the front line their tunes will change!

no sons of the politicians go to war my friend that would be madness!??? :heated:

but even after many politicians were questioned about this they but give a blank answer...why ? beacuse they are here but to make mischief on the earth...they would never go to war themselves they but tworl there fingers and widen there pockets...

[genki]

no sons of the politicians go to war my friend that would be madness!??? :heated:

but even after many politicians were questioned about this they but give a blank answer...why ? beacuse they are here but to make mischief on the earth...they would never go to war themselves they but tworl there fingers and widen there pockets...

Word!

They are good for nothing stinking money grubbers! Atleast in some places they do try to help but in many the world can do without them.

[barney]

Yeah, bleedin politicians.
It's a Good Job that Pristina sits on the worlds 3rd biggest oilfeild, or the politicians would have never agreed to go in with NATO and prevent muslim kids from being decapitated and hung upside down from serb churches.

Theyre all just self self self.

[genki]

Yeah, bleedin politicians.
It's a Good Job that Pristina sits on the worlds 3rd biggest oilfeild, or the politicians would have never agreed to go in with NATO and prevent muslim kids from being decapitated and hung upside down from serb churches.

Theyre all just self self self.

spot on!

[Rou]

You permitted Bush to complete his first term, and stranger still, chose him for a second term, which gave him a clear mandate from you... to continue to murder our people in Iraq and Afghanistan," there are two ways to end the war in Iraq: "The first is from our side, and it is to continue to escalate the killing and fighting against youIt has now become clear to you and the entire world the impotence of the democratic system and how it plays with the interest of the peoples and their blood by sacrificing soldiers and populations to achieve the interests of the major corporations".
"I invite you to embrace Islam," The leaders of the West - especially Bush, [Tony] Blair, [Nicolas] Sarkozy and [Gordon] Brown - still talk about freedom and human rights with a flagrant disregard for the intellects of human beings,"

Thats it

I do not pretend to be bin ladens best friend but to read the above it clearly states "i invite you to embrace islam" i does not demand it , as stated in the quran you can never force islam on anyone. and it also states the truth that is the people of the country (USA) suffer while the corporations prosper by sacrificing soilders and populations?

it is the truth of what is happening many innocents are being killed as many good soilders just so the rich and powerful in western countries can sit in more comfort...

i see your point of view i am not blind to it that you view it as he states 1. we will fight you unless you turn muslim...

it is always good to see from many diffrent angles but think of what he is saying he knows that the war is based on money and fake (not real) democracy and the fact that bush got himself back in power twice?

2. he invites them to turn to islam that in islamic culture is quite a normal offer of peace.

obviously i see that it is viewed upon as if your not muslim we will kill you but that is not what is stated nor is that islamic and he knows that.

Do you truly beleive that if USA pulled out and left the middle east alone that osama will continue to fight usa? reffering to my earlier post he nor has the man power or weapon power to do anything of the sort..

the only reason USA is getting a bad name and is being fought by so many is beacuse of the invasion and not the words of osama that is clear to any who have looked into this war...

support for terrorists only grew by the 1000's beacuse of the wars...

afgan war - we are looking for osama then changed to we are freeing a people.

Iraq war - we saving the world from weapons of mass destruction then changed to we are taking out saddam , and finally we are saving the people from themselves.

if you wish to be honest then you will see there was no need for these wars and they are wrong, the men in the white house made a decsion to create havoc in the middle east as war is big money wether it be for oils or shares either way it brings personal gain to them.

its no secret that many politicians in the white house have shares and intrests in many companies that make weapons and supply support for war...

if bush took the tax payers money in front of them he would be stoned if he buys tanks and a percentage goes in his pocket due to being a share holder then thats legal.

this is not about being a hero nor saving anyone this is about making innocents suffer and filling pockets...innocents on both sides suffer so the rich can stay rich...

[Rou]

Yeah, bleedin politicians.
It's a Good Job that Pristina sits on the worlds 3rd biggest oilfeild, or the politicians would have never agreed to go in with NATO and prevent muslim kids from being decapitated and hung upside down from serb churches.

Theyre all just self self self.

Politics is never one sided no one said that every leader is bad there are the good and pressure from the good and the people does force them to step in perhaps where they dont want to but in the end they dont lose anything and they are happy as long as they lose nothing....

but for gain they will do anything...

[genki]

there should be a new law that forcibly puts leaders and politicians at the front line to fight with their troops. Or at the very least 1 member of their direct family.

[barney]

I think you'll find Rou that America isnt "In the Middle East" prior to 2003, except by the express desire of certain countries that they be there.
In Turkey as part of NATO, in Israel in very small numbers on joint training, In Kuwait in small numbers as trainers and a visable sign of the wests commitment to defending that country and Saudi from attacks by Iraq (as in 1991).

And thats it.

So America wasnt "In the middle east" prior to Bin Ladens attacks. It is a supporter of Israel. The surrounding Arab nations tried 4 times in 4 wars since '47 to wipe israel off the map, and failed. They cant do it conventinally, their armys are too poor-fighters. It has to be done politically.
The US prevents that from happening. It wont accept Israels destruction.
Thats the reason OBL started this war. He sees with Israels death, and the reclaimation of the "Holy Sites" a new caliphate..led by...ummm...who we wonder.....leading a united Ummah to jihad till Islam is supreme.

Thats his Goals. It's his stated Goals.

So his offer is entirely...surrender, or die.

[Rou]

I think you'll find Rou that America isnt "In the Middle East" prior to 2003, except by the express desire of certain countries that they be there.
In Turkey as part of NATO, in Israel in very small numbers on joint training, In Kuwait in small numbers as trainers and a visable sign of the wests commitment to defending that country and Saudi from attacks by Iraq (as in 1991).

And thats it.

So America wasnt "In the middle east" prior to Bin Ladens attacks. It is a supporter of Israel. The surrounding Arab nations tried 4 times in 4 wars since '47 to wipe israel off the map, and failed. They cant do it conventinally, their armys are too poor-fighters. It has to be done politically.
The US prevents that from happening. It wont accept Israels destruction.
Thats the reason OBL started this war. He sees with Israels death, and the reclaimation of the "Holy Sites" a new caliphate..led by...ummm...who we wonder.....leading a united Ummah to jihad till Islam is supreme.

Thats his Goals. It's his stated Goals.

So his offer is entirely...surrender, or die.

i ddid not view his offer in this light however if his is surrender or die then that is not islamic it is to back off or die and that is acceptable live in peace or war the choice is up to those who attack in the ending...

as for there being no presence in the middle east since WW2 there has been a presence in the middle east the creation of israel was by the hands of the uk and the USA therefore there hand was already there well before hand also i understand that they were there to help kuwait but looking at the details of why they stepped in it was due to the fact that they were asked to and also the fact that majority of the oil that was coming to the US was based in kuwait...they could not afford to lose that after that many bases were set up in kuwait and the middle east a fair trade for oil system based on high officals making deals with high stated saudis who sell them selves and there lands...

the presence in the middle east has been there since the end of ww2 and a constant hand in high officals and goverment running this is the interferance that is complained about by many muslims...

i agree that many saudis are to blame aswell and this is not overlooked by the muslim community...also i agree that those who kill innocents to try and make a point are ignorant...but what must be seen is that in the middle east there is a big hand by western powers to continue the war...war is big buisness and many are taking advantage of the innocents on both sides...

[barney]

Dude, you have a head on your shoulders quite clearly,If you think that the US presence is now defined by US Government officials in snap-brimmed fedoras and mirrorshades telling people how to run their country, then i suspect nothing will change your mind. But i would invite you to delve deeply into this idea, and from both sides of the coin. Good luck with it, and keep your mind as open as you can.

The US diddnt create Israel. It was a United Nations directive following the UK abandoning palastine in the face of Jewish terrorist and Palastinian terrorist civil war.

The US did what it could by supporting a "jewish homeland".But the UN was in agreement. So perhaps take out the aggro on the United Nations?

Anyway, once a fait accomplie is in place, theres the options. Fight or Talk. The Arabs have tried fighting and failed. For 30 odd years they have been trying terror and failed...so perhaps ..y'know, mayby talk now?

If Kuwait grew carrots would we have given a monkeys?
Mayby not. But it was the same nation that Pitched in within the same decade for Somalia's "oil", for Kosovo's "Oil" and gave billions to starving muslims, as it does today, every year. This is the nation that rebuilt the world out of its own pocket after WW2 destroyed it.

The Bloated Capitalist Pig-Dog yankee loves war cos it's big buisness?
I wont quote statistics at you. Check for yourself what Iraq or Afganistan costs the US financially.
Check for yourself who receives Iraq's oil money and what it's spent on.
Check for yourself if the majority of Iraqi's themselves want coalition troops there right now, Check when they want them to leave. Bear in mind when you do, that this is a nation fed on hatred of america for a generation. In everything they ever learned and everything they ever saw.

I know that the West in many ways is corrupt and isnt perfect. It makes mistakes, it makes wrong decisions, it has corruption. I know all this and yet know that it is doing its best in very trying circumstances. We are looking very clearly at the end of Humanity if this snowballs. Thats something to take seriously alright.

[S_87]

As is a favorite statement around here "What double standards"; on this post one is too many, if it is the Taliban or AQI doing the killing it is no big deal

well thats where ur wrong so learn a few things before saying that

Recent news as well as old has confirmed from OBL's mouth time and time again that he was responsible. I wish you could see what an ignoramous a statement like that makes you look like

i wish you could see what an ignoramous you must be to believe with all the technology the superpower of the world cannot find a man who has nothing better to do than dress up and release another hollywood movie.

Which is exactly what you have done here. People in Gitmo are POW sorry about their luck, but they are held as prisoners. What about the Taliban holding those Koreans? Or burning children to death? At least we can say we dont do that.

if you can bring solid proof the taliban did that please bring. and confirm what you think a taliban member is.

Yes, this is usually true, accompanied with a roadside bomb or an AK-47 and a village full of people scared for their life, then the perpetrators can probably be considered Taliban

hey thats a good classification.

yes perhaps we should use serious military force and actually kill indiscriminately as you accuse, it would cost much less money and kill much more effectively, however it is kind of sad how you would condemn all the other Muslims around the Taliban to death just to prove the point that the american military has shown extreme restraint since day 1

youve already done that...

Poppy growing actually increased during the Talibans reign until 2000 and it only decreased then because of the worst drought to have hit Afghanistan in nearly a century. Notice how Taliban controlled regions are the highest opium producers in the world, what do you say about that? Seems you could be the one practicing idiocy... BY the way, you could say anything you hear is propoganda, I cant tell you how sick I am of hearing that word. Everything everyone tells you is propoganda, it is just which propoganda you choose to side with, it seems you side with the illogical and ignorant side.

umm under shariah law which u guys think the taliban was trying to put up... extreme shariah law that is.. any form of drugs is totally totally forbidden. it is something well known the taliban tried to stop poppy cultivation, though it may not have been 100% effective.

Great. Then condem the Market bombers...condem the Iraqi death squads.

Go on...
Ahh! You cant.
Weird eh?

and who gave you the right to think you know anything about me?
i cant? well that shows your ignorance. i have and will continue to condemn ANYONE who kills. that means those who did 11/9, 7/7, the madrid bombings, those car bombers AND those made iraq and afghanistan what they are today.

[barney]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...09/wafg409.xml


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/...cle1171369.ece

Kinda short of time here, so Just a 30 second top-of-the head thing,
Heres your mates in their happy place.

[Rou]

Dude, you have a head on your shoulders quite clearly,If you think that the US presence is now defined by US Government officials in snap-brimmed fedoras and mirrorshades telling people how to run their country, then i suspect nothing will change your mind. But i would invite you to delve deeply into this idea, and from both sides of the coin. Good luck with it, and keep your mind as open as you can.

The US diddnt create Israel. It was a United Nations directive following the UK abandoning palastine in the face of Jewish terrorist and Palastinian terrorist civil war.

The US did what it could by supporting a "jewish homeland".But the UN was in agreement. So perhaps take out the aggro on the United Nations?

Anyway, once a fait accomplie is in place, theres the options. Fight or Talk. The Arabs have tried fighting and failed. For 30 odd years they have been trying terror and failed...so perhaps ..y'know, mayby talk now?

If Kuwait grew carrots would we have given a monkeys?
Mayby not. But it was the same nation that Pitched in within the same decade for Somalia's "oil", for Kosovo's "Oil" and gave billions to starving muslims, as it does today, every year. This is the nation that rebuilt the world out of its own pocket after WW2 destroyed it.

The Bloated Capitalist Pig-Dog yankee loves war cos it's big buisness?
I wont quote statistics at you. Check for yourself what Iraq or Afganistan costs the US financially.
Check for yourself who receives Iraq's oil money and what it's spent on.
Check for yourself if the majority of Iraqi's themselves want coalition troops there right now, Check when they want them to leave. Bear in mind when you do, that this is a nation fed on hatred of america for a generation. In everything they ever learned and everything they ever saw.

I know that the West in many ways is corrupt and isnt perfect. It makes mistakes, it makes wrong decisions, it has corruption. I know all this and yet know that it is doing its best in very trying circumstances. We are looking very clearly at the end of Humanity if this snowballs. Thats something to take seriously alright.

The UN being the bulk of UK and USA at the time are the ones who made the decison to set up home in palastine but tell me what sort of democracy is it to set up shop in another land with no choice of the people who live there? how does that make sense? anyhow indeed we will not go into a drawn out debate of the fate of israel, however you state that the USA built up the world??? let me explain that to come into another mans home take his money and then use majority of it to build your home then use whats left to give back to the man is not helping him...its saving face...

i do not say anything to the human spirit of many americans there are alot of good people there but i can tell you majority of them are not in politics there and those who are, are kept quite...

my aim here is not to show the fact that americans as people are wrong no my point is the fact that the goverment that is allowed to run the people there is wrong and yes unfortunatly the people are allowing it...

alot are standing up to it but alot more need to stand up and face what there country is doing in there name is wrong...not defend its forign polcies to the eath just because they are american!??

i do not defend those in my religon that do evil!? no i state clearly that they are not as islamic as they beleive and they will pay for what they do...i do not sit and blindly let them continue in my name and the name of islam!?

i show people that there is a massive diffrence between real muslims and those who want war beacuse it fills there pockets and those who spread the word of war not to protect the innocent but to widen there pockets!

as for the growing of carrots you see but that is the most importa nt things it proves the motives of those behind the cogs of america and the people must see this!? they are doing no one any favours it takes a far braver man to admit that his country is doing something wrong than to just sit there and defend certain aspects of it!?

Islam says to protect the innocent and defend your land.....

To those who do it may allah bless you and give you strength and support but to those who cause mischief to continue this war for there own gain wether western or so called muslims may allah give you back the suffering you cause so many ten fold.

I know the wrongs of those on my side the west must understand the so many wrongs its leaders do in there names..only then will you be able to truly see the coin at all...forget which side you see...

Peace be upon you.

[Cognescenti]

..
but what about the eye witness accounts of many of the innocent freed from guntanamo mate who state the quran being stamped on and urinated on? what of the offical guards dressed in riot gear rushing anyone who would try to pray? what of the cages they are kept in and not given access to water? ...

From where do you get these notions? I suspect it is from folks who have that wide-eyed look of hate and more than a little spittle at the corner of their mouth.

Here are some pictures of Camp Delta:

Here are some of the medium security area...apparently the goons in riot gear are just off camera

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...delta-pics.htm

[barney]

For examples of how the US rebuilt the world, simply google Marshall Plan. I havnt the time to explain it in detail.

As for robbing a land to build your own home, simply look at Americas oil imports where they are from. Look at Iraq's oil exports, find out where they go.
Check out how much money the US spends on Iraq. Check out how much Aid any other nation gives. You'll find the top donaters are Kuffar. The Ummah nations give literally peanuts.

Of course, you dont have to do any of this, you can beleive the stories you are fed. Thats fine, but unless you are willing to think for yourself, you will just be with the masses following the bandwagon.

Regards

[Rou]

For examples of how the US rebuilt the world, simply google Marshall Plan. I havnt the time to explain it in detail.

As for robbing a land to build your own home, simply look at Americas oil imports where they are from. Look at Iraq's oil exports, find out where they go.
Check out how much money the US spends on Iraq. Check out how much Aid any other nation gives. You'll find the top donaters are Kuffar. The Ummah nations give literally peanuts.

Of course, you dont have to do any of this, you can beleive the stories you are fed. Thats fine, but unless you are willing to think for yourself, you will just be with the masses following the bandwagon.

Regards

I accept your offer as i have no issue in looking for further knowledge but i urge you one thing....you too should look around at the truth behind what you call donations to countries while others are given sanctions to give money to one country that u favour at one pointthen to another when u do not is not a balanced world it is playing with economy and also my friend when you have done so much to harm a nation and then give them oney as donations its called saving face...

as you stated oil from the middle east goes to the USa indeed but the money they give is but to keep happy the officals that sell there people and it is better for the west that those officals stay in there pockets as its a give and take relationship that has been set up over many years those people have been put in place bythe US check history of the saudis and see how much of a hand the USA have had , search the so called arab leaders and there links to the power of the white house!? while the west grows the middle east must stay in limbo for a nation with economy and a people who can think for themselves are a risk to tis buissness of give and take...

they would demand what is owed to them and that would be pricy and risky as the power would shift....

what you call aid i call money to fix that which you caused....if it helps them sleep at night then good for them all it is . is saving face...

[Rou]

From where do you get these notions? I suspect it is from folks who have that wide-eyed look of hate and more than a little spittle at the corner of their mouth.

Here are some pictures of Camp Delta:

Here are some of the medium security area...apparently the goons in riot gear are just off camera

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rd_arrow-s.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ayersign-s.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...delta-pics.htm

Very nice pictures ...i love the artistic angles...hint hint!?

yes you are correct there are no soilders in riot gear and no stammping of qurans how silly of me to beleive eye witness's who have been locked up there with no proof and have done nothing wrong nor have reason to lie your right they keep them well fed and they sit at tables and wash every day...and torture what torture?? what a silly notion...

guess they are praying hey?

Ample room hey? rapists and murderers get bigger cells than this...

[barney]

I dont understand. You were going to post some pictures of US torture. I think you just mistakenly posted the same old pics of prisoners behind bars.

The "Torture" that the prisoners receive is being played music, sleep depravation and being told to look at pictures of women in bikini's.

Rapists might get bigger cells in say Saudi, if you happen to call a coffin a bigger cell. However Rape Victims only get 50 lashes, or 200 on appeal.

[Cognescenti]

Very nice pictures ...i love the artistic angles...hint hint!?...

guess they are praying hey?...

Yes. Quite possibly. They are thanking God they are being held by Americans and not the Russians. These chaps are being processed in. They have masks on so they cant bite or spit. They have shackles on so they don't kill the guards. I am willing to bet this picture is right after these innocents became guests of the USMC..probably about 2003..judging from the primitive state of the camp.

...

Ample room hey? rapists and murderers get bigger cells than this...

Well...many of them are murderers. :D Again, these were temporary facilities before permanent facilities were completed. Probably about 2003.

It's like this pal. It seems, when the US was secretly planning its super-secret crusade to take over the super-secret Afghnistan oil pipelines and generally exterminate all the muslims in the world they had not yet planned to have any detainees. I know this seems almost absurd, but when the CIA and Mossad were conspiring in a super-secret plan to blow up the WTC and blame it on Al Queda (which, of course, they made up in the first place) they forgot to tell the guy in charge of Gitmo to get ready.

Do you have any more slides?

[barney]

Yeah, the pics are 2003, the same ones rolled out evry time.

Bit of a waste of time linking pictures of Saudi, Syrian and Iranian prisoners.

They would be " Lies" and "Photoshopped" as everyone knows that America has the worst and the Middle East has the most humane, detention centres.

The cell John Peters and the other POW's were held in was ankle deep in faeces and the torture was car batteries to the head which blew out fillings on some prisoners.

It wasnt providing Bibles, Square 3 course meals and forcing them to listen to Christina Aguilara.


Although, actually, Christina is pretty horrific.

[Talha777]

Astaghfar those pictures are very disturbing. Most of these are young boys who were basically picked up by the US army for no reason and sent to the torture chamber of guantanamo. May Allah hasten their freedom and may He punish those who mistreat and abuse the innocent Muslims. Ameen.

[Resigned]

Astaghfar those pictures are very disturbing. Most of these are young boys who were basically picked up by the US army for no reason and sent to the torture chamber of guantanamo. May Allah hasten their freedom and may He punish those who mistreat and abuse the innocent Muslims. Ameen.

That's all very melodramatic but why would you think that anyone would believe you making things up as you go along?

[MTAFFI]

well thats where ur wrong so learn a few things before saying that

My most sincere apologies... one question, why then do you support the Taliban when they have killed and been the reason for far more civilian deaths than all the occupation forces?

i wish you could see what an ignoramous you must be to believe with all the technology the superpower of the world cannot find a man who has nothing better to do than dress up and release another hollywood movie.

Just because we are technologically advanced doesnt mean we can see through mountain does it? Imagine a game of hide and seek in those mountains... The problem is we arent in a hollywood movie, the people that died on 9/11 were the result of a real man, that man is OBL, he has admitted to it on many occasions, that man is in hiding and he will be found and he will die or even better be locked up until he dies on Rikers Island in the maximum security side where hopefully he can be the pet of some guy named Big Nasty.

if you can bring solid proof the taliban did that please bring. and confirm what you think a taliban member is.

They aided and abetted the person responsible for 9/11 and therefore qualify as guilty by association. They could have handed him over but instead chose war, that is there fault not ours.

hey thats a good classification.

Thanks :)

youve already done that...

already done what? Shown extreme retraint? Yes I would agree with you there

umm under shariah law which u guys think the taliban was trying to put up... extreme shariah law that is.. any form of drugs is totally totally forbidden. it is something well known the taliban tried to stop poppy cultivation, though it may not have been 100% effective.

How about it wasnt effective at all, as I said the poppy production continually increased during Taliban control until the drought. Just like it has increased in areas they control now, if it is so much against Shariah and the Taliban are truly mujahideen and they are simply trying to implement it then please provide an explanation for all of this? They are no more than sick backwards men who are stuck back 1000 years because the rest of the world left them behind, they never have been anything and they never will be anything, they are paying their sins in this world and hopefully the next.

Hopefully we can stop our conversation here, because the dialogue is somewhat ridiculous and simplistic, you arent really providing much entertainment or intellectual stimulation.
:thankyou:

[MTAFFI]

The UN being the bulk of UK and USA at the time are the ones who made the decison to set up home in palastine but tell me what sort of democracy is it to set up shop in another land with no choice of the people who live there? how does that make sense?

How about the result of WW2? Has land not been conquered, taken and redrawn time and time again throughout the history of man? This land was surrendered to the British by the Ottoman empire, thus making it British land. Also, the people there were given plenty of choice, however they chose to fight again the large influx of jewish settlers and then chose to leave Israel because of the impending Arab attack. Why should they be allowed back in? Why would a country allow enemy combatants to enter their territory knowing what the result would be, does this not seem stupid to you? The Arab countries tried to reconquer this land and could not, they lost time and time again. I hate to be the one to have to break it this way every time but land is often the spoils of war, and Israel has certainly won it fair share of engagements

[barney]

When four nations simultaniously attack a weaker country with its back to the sea and surrounded on all sides, throwing over 2000 tanks against less than 100, with technologically superior weapons like the T64. Dosnt the very fact that all four muslim nations got thrown back in repeated horrific defeats, tell you something about wether Allah wants the Muslims to destroy Israel?To retake the land?
Or is it just repeated, and severe "tests of faith"

[Rou]

Yeah, the pics are 2003, the same ones rolled out evry time.

Bit of a waste of time linking pictures of Saudi, Syrian and Iranian prisoners.

They would be " Lies" and "Photoshopped" as everyone knows that America has the worst and the Middle East has the most humane, detention centres.

The cell John Peters and the other POW's were held in was ankle deep in faeces and the torture was car batteries to the head which blew out fillings on some prisoners.

It wasnt providing Bibles, Square 3 course meals and forcing them to listen to Christina Aguilara.


Although, actually, Christina is pretty horrific.

There seems no point to talk here no show facts do you not understand the diffrence between a so called democratic country doing things and a non democratic country ?? do you not see the hypocrisy in what is happening here!??

you take on country that states it is trying to free another from torture and cruelty but by doing what!??! inflicting the very same things???

how does that make sense?? what are photoshops? have you looked at the pictures and what of the eyewitness accounts? what of the soilders who have been discharged for there crueltey and rapes???

are these all photoshops pictures?? what of the pics from abu gharib were those photo shops??

when will it end??

ok your right those pictures of the prisons in middle east were bas u say the beheading was bad the kidnapping was bad...do you not see the diffrence between a band of nobodys doing this and the united states of america doing this????????????

This war is wrong the united states is wrong and in denial! the bands of wrong doers in middle east who call themselves muslim and then torture innocents are wrong but who are more wrong!!

but those who deny what is happening to innocents just beacuse they are part of a creed or country are far worse they hide the pain that the innocent suffer just beacuse of there own ego! and thats sick!

May allah give peace to the innocent who suffer at the hands of evil...and may he give sight to the blind who allow these things to continue....

[Rou]

I dont understand. You were going to post some pictures of US torture. I think you just mistakenly posted the same old pics of prisoners behind bars.

The "Torture" that the prisoners receive is being played music, sleep depravation and being told to look at pictures of women in bikini's.

Rapists might get bigger cells in say Saudi, if you happen to call a coffin a bigger cell. However Rape Victims only get 50 lashes, or 200 on appeal.

for one i never stated i would show pictures of torture mate? it was eye witness accounts who were releassed as they were innocent but were still held for excess of 3 years look it up...second you think rape victims get 50 lashes?? 200 on appeal??? if these are the facts you are going by then i suggest you seriously take a look around....

if you beleive such rubbish then you will beleive anything....

where does it state that rape VICTIMS will be lashed??? how does that even make sense??????

no where in islam does it state that i suggest you not beleive everything you read on the net....

[Rou]

Yes. Quite possibly. They are thanking God they are being held by Americans and not the Russians. These chaps are being processed in. They have masks on so they cant bite or spit. They have shackles on so they don't kill the guards. I am willing to bet this picture is right after these innocents became guests of the USMC..probably about 2003..judging from the primitive state of the camp.

...

Well...many of them are murderers. :D Again, these were temporary facilities before permanent facilities were completed. Probably about 2003.

It's like this pal. It seems, when the US was secretly planning its super-secret crusade to take over the super-secret Afghnistan oil pipelines and generally exterminate all the muslims in the world they had not yet planned to have any detainees. I know this seems almost absurd, but when the CIA and Mossad were conspiring in a super-secret plan to blow up the WTC and blame it on Al Queda (which, of course, they made up in the first place) they forgot to tell the guy in charge of Gitmo to get ready.

Do you have any more slides?

The fact that you think this type of treatment is ok at all seems to suprise me so its ok for some blokes from afgan and iran but its cruel when its to an american??? Ok?? whatever you say mate...good morals you have there...

guilty before proven innocent i like your style the fact being many innocents were held & tortured without proof or trial in a democratic country and no one seems to have a problem with that yet you have problems with saddam gassing kurds???

hypocrisy is strife....

[Rou]

How about the result of WW2? Has land not been conquered, taken and redrawn time and time again throughout the history of man? This land was surrendered to the British by the Ottoman empire, thus making it British land. Also, the people there were given plenty of choice, however they chose to fight again the large influx of jewish settlers and then chose to leave Israel because of the impending Arab attack. Why should they be allowed back in? Why would a country allow enemy combatants to enter their territory knowing what the result would be, does this not seem stupid to you? The Arab countries tried to reconquer this land and could not, they lost time and time again. I hate to be the one to have to break it this way every time but land is often the spoils of war, and Israel has certainly won it fair share of engagements

I love the wya people see it there way to make themselves feel better....
when south korea and north korea have issues USA is honor bound to protect the innocent.... when iraq has evil as saddam the USA is honor bound to save them from them dumb selves but when it comes to making a decison on palastinians in there own land being murdered oh thats ok as theres more intrest in leaving israel in charge its called a foot hold mate....

spoils of war you say then i say give the palastinians a fair chance to win it back as you put it....

[Rou]

When four nations simultaniously attack a weaker country with its back to the sea and surrounded on all sides, throwing over 2000 tanks against less than 100, with technologically superior weapons like the T64. Dosnt the very fact that all four muslim nations got thrown back in repeated horrific defeats, tell you something about wether Allah wants the Muslims to destroy Israel?To retake the land?
Or is it just repeated, and severe "tests of faith"

Test not what allah wants...nor his judgment..allah has stated no such thing to destroy israel...palastinians want not israel destroyed they want there homes back they wish to live as humans if you do not understand the wrong which is happening there then what will you see the wrong of teh rest of the world???

your right the west is saving us all...what a saviour.....*claps*

[Cognescenti]

The fact that you think this type of treatment is ok at all seems to suprise me so its ok for some blokes from afgan and iran but its cruel when its to an american??? Ok?? whatever you say mate...good morals you have there...

You posted pictures of detainees arriving at Gitmo. Is it permissible for super-high-risk prisoners to be shackled during transfer? Yes it is. That is not torture and you know it. In fact, the mere posing of pictures of prisoners during transfer on the pretense it was standard treatment is cynnical and displays either the weakness of your argument, your level of honesty or your level of knowledge. Which is it? I demonstrated to you the Newsweek Quran story was apocryphal and you respond by waving your hands and asking about the other nameless stories we have not heard of.

guilty before proven innocent i like your style the fact being many innocents were held & tortured without proof or trial in a democratic country and no one seems to have a problem with that yet you have problems with saddam gassing kurds???

hypocrisy is strife....

Did I say anthing about Saddam??? BTW, who, exactly, was tortured while at Gitmo? Don't give us any organic fertilizer about female interrogators or light bulbs withut shades, either.

On the issue of habeus corpus, you do have a valid point, but these are not criminal suspects. One can't have lawyers reading Miranda Rights in flak vests on the front lines.

[Resigned]

On the issue of habeus corpus, you do have a valid point, but these are not criminal suspects. One can't have lawyers reading Miranda Rights in flak vests on the front lines.

An interesting argument I’ve come across surrounding habeus corpus is that it doesn’t apply in connection with detainees (enemy combatants).

The detainees at Gitmo are not U.S. citizens, firstly, and secondly, Gitmo is not U.S. soil and thus U.S. law does not specifically apply. The U.S. has a long term lease of the property from Cuba.

[barney]

An interesting argument I’ve come across surrounding habeus corpus is that it doesn’t apply in connection with detainees (enemy combatants).

The detainees at Gitmo are not U.S. citizens, firstly, and secondly, Gitmo is not U.S. soil and thus U.S. law does not specifically apply. The U.S. has a long term lease of the property from Cuba.

Which of course is the reason they are there!
And in my opinion, its sly and nasty. Your using legal loopholes to detain them.

The easiest way to deal with them is say that they are Prisoners of War.
When the bombs and attempted bombs stop, and Al Quada, whatever That means these days, signs a ceasefire, then mayby release em.

Aye, we know that they would be back again in short order, but y'know, whats the point in holding 300 odd real terrorists in a prison. It's not like theres not another 100000 out there ready to replace them.

If its a war on terror, its a war that, no matter what your kill-ratio is, and at the moment between combatants its something like 40:1 due to the sheer muppetness of their fighting skill, the war will never end and eventually a democracy cant sustain that.

There is no answers bar Islam taking hold of it's future and the ummah rising against its extremists. Thats never happened historically and so it wont happen now.

But its the only chance. As long as muslims blame the west for their woes instead of the real culprits, this will carry on for years, until a eventual extremist victory.

[barney]

second you think rape victims get 50 lashes?? 200 on appeal??? if these are the facts you are going by then i suggest you seriously take a look around....

if you beleive such rubbish then you will beleive anything....

where does it state that rape VICTIMS will be lashed??? how does that even make sense??????

..

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/18/wo...a5e&ei=5087%0A

K?

[Talha777]

Muslims should never allow themselves to be demoralized. America's only strategy in this war is to demoralize Muslims and make us ask ourselves is all the destruction and killing that we are having to endure worth resisting westernization? The answer of the true believers is yes. As long as Muslims hold on to the mentality that sacrificing your life for the sake of truth is our highest aspiration we can never be defeated. We must be like the companions of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) and be inspired by their example. When the idolators of Makka were marching to Madina with a well equipped and determined army of 1000 to wipe out Islam for good, there were only 313 poorly armed companions of Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) to resist them. They may have been physically weaker, but they had the inner strength that can only come with true belief and commitment to Islam. They told the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam): We are not like the companions of Moses who said to him, "go you and your God to fight, we will stay here." No, We will fight to your right and to your left, we will fight in front of you and behind you, and the enemies will not be able to reach you without having to trample over our dead bodies! Subhan Allah wa bihamdihi. May Allah give the mujahideen of this age the type of courage and determination as the brave companions of the Holy Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam).

[Resigned]

Which of course is the reason they are there!
And in my opinion, its sly and nasty. Your using legal loopholes to detain them.

The easiest way to deal with them is say that they are Prisoners of War.
When the bombs and attempted bombs stop, and Al Quada, whatever That means these days, signs a ceasefire, then mayby release em.

Aye, we know that they would be back again in short order, but y'know, whats the point in holding 300 odd real terrorists in a prison. It's not like theres not another 100000 out there ready to replace them.

If its a war on terror, its a war that, no matter what your kill-ratio is, and at the moment between combatants its something like 40:1 due to the sheer muppetness of their fighting skill, the war will never end and eventually a democracy cant sustain that.

There is no answers bar Islam taking hold of it's future and the ummah rising against its extremists. Thats never happened historically and so it wont happen now.

But its the only chance. As long as muslims blame the west for their woes instead of the real culprits, this will carry on for years, until a eventual extremist victory.

I view Gitmo as a stop-gap measure. I presume that there is some intel being acquired from the captive holy warriors™ so I’m not opposed.

As far as:
”Islam taking hold of it's future and the ummah rising against its extremists…”, well, that’s not going to happen so we have to find alternate avenues.

I think that those with their eyes open realized in the 21st century that state support for terrorism is the core of continuing terrorism. Killing terrorists? It makes them martyrs, and will result in nothing but more popping up. Sure, it's a good thing. It slows them down. It gives us a sense of vengeance. It makes us feel good. But if anyone thinks killing Osama bin Laden and nothing else will solve our terrorism problems any more than cutting our collective noses, they're missing the point.

Cutting off the sources of financing, materials, safe haven, and intelligence is the ONLY way to stop the tide of terror. The ONLY way. Period.

[barney]

When the idolators of Makka were marching to Madina with a well equipped and determined army of 1000 to wipe out Islam for good, there were only 313 poorly armed companions of Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) to resist them. They may have been physically weaker, but they had the inner strength that can only come with true belief and commitment to Islam. .

If your talking about Badr, which I'm assuming from the numbers involved not the backstory (nevertheless its interesting to see what they teach about it these days), then I fear you are a little out.

There were 313 Muslims and 3000 immortal Angels led by Gabriel for a total of 3313 verses 1100 Quaresh.

Sura 3:123-125. "Allah had helped you at Badr, when ye were a contemptible little force; then fear Allah; thus May ye show your gratitude. Remember thou saidst to the Faithful: "Is it not enough for you that Allah should help you with three thousand angels (Specially) sent down? "Yea, - if ye remain firm, and act aright, even if the enemy should rush here on you in hot haste, your Lord would help you with five thousand angels Making a terrific onslaught."

So against a force mainly comprised of supernatural beings with otherworldly superpowers and who were completley unkillable, the caravan gaurds, who were heading to Medina to utterly destroy Islam (Probably on the orders of America and the Zionists), they did pretty well to end the battle with only 70 dead and having killed 14 muslims in return.

The angels in this fight managed to kill one caravan gaurd for every thirty Angels fighting. A most impressive peice of military skill.

[Rou]

You posted pictures of detainees arriving at Gitmo. Is it permissible for super-high-risk prisoners to be shackled during transfer? Yes it is. That is not torture and you know it. In fact, the mere posing of pictures of prisoners during transfer on the pretense it was standard treatment is cynnical and displays either the weakness of your argument, your level of honesty or your level of knowledge. Which is it? I demonstrated to you the Newsweek Quran story was apocryphal and you respond by waving your hands and asking about the other nameless stories we have not heard of.



Did I say anthing about Saddam??? BTW, who, exactly, was tortured while at Gitmo? Don't give us any organic fertilizer about female interrogators or light bulbs withut shades, either.

On the issue of habeus corpus, you do have a valid point, but these are not criminal suspects. One can't have lawyers reading Miranda Rights in flak vests on the front lines.

Let me be simple then as explaining in details seems to be useless...high risk jail + many innocent people (i will not do the research for you go find out how many were innocent and have still speant 3 years of there life locked up check eye witness accounts of the tipton 3 and so many others and also things like road to guntanamo) now take those two and think about the fact that what you call sooooo high risk i call non advance combatants in a country that is not even theres...if you think thats the treatment they deserve or need i say your level of knowledge needs to be updated about what people are capable of surrounded by soilders in a USA prison!

Second you state that no one was tortured...again is it me or you who is being naive in this situation? there are offical pictures of gitmo with hand cuffs on the floor many accounts of people being deprived of sleep and hand cuffed in akward postion for hours...oh let me guess this aint that bad?? many who were released from gitmo after being found totally innocent after 3 years or more have the scars to prove it mate mental and physical disability of the back,walking with a crouch organs that have been damaged after being force fed.

the mental stress that one goes through seems to be unkown to you i suggest you try and stand still in one spot for an hour and perhaps you will understand what torture is....

the weakness of my argument? the lack of knowledge from my part? i think its more like the lack of morals on your part...

you beleive what makes you comfartble....without even putting yourself in others shoes for a second..

let me see you go without sleep for one day , let me see you not eat for but 8hours (i wont say 24hrs as i doubt you would do that) let me see you stand in one spot for nothing but an hour...

these things seem so easy...why dont you try them and then for a second maybe you might just understand what suffering is...

[Rou]

Which of course is the reason they are there!
And in my opinion, its sly and nasty. Your using legal loopholes to detain them.

The easiest way to deal with them is say that they are Prisoners of War.
When the bombs and attempted bombs stop, and Al Quada, whatever That means these days, signs a ceasefire, then mayby release em.

Aye, we know that they would be back again in short order, but y'know, whats the point in holding 300 odd real terrorists in a prison. It's not like theres not another 100000 out there ready to replace them.

If its a war on terror, its a war that, no matter what your kill-ratio is, and at the moment between combatants its something like 40:1 due to the sheer muppetness of their fighting skill, the war will never end and eventually a democracy cant sustain that.

There is no answers bar Islam taking hold of it's future and the ummah rising against its extremists. Thats never happened historically and so it wont happen now.

But its the only chance. As long as muslims blame the west for their woes instead of the real culprits, this will carry on for years, until a eventual extremist victory.

Its very easy to state that islam blames the west for its woes and that is why this is happening...please for a second take a look at the vast number of muslims fighting today compared to the minute band of nobdoys that were fighting at the time before 9/11 this war was manufactured , the terrorists as would be the bigger numnber were born after afganistand was invaded after 9/11 ...and you call this a war?

[MTAFFI]

I love the wya people see it there way to make themselves feel better....
when south korea and north korea have issues USA is honor bound to protect the innocent.... when iraq has evil as saddam the USA is honor bound to save them from them dumb selves but when it comes to making a decison on palastinians in there own land being murdered oh thats ok as theres more intrest in leaving israel in charge its called a foot hold mate....

spoils of war you say then i say give the palastinians a fair chance to win it back as you put it....

your post doesnt appear to be much of a response to mine, and I am not sure if maybe you meant to quote someone else, here is my post again

How about the result of WW2? Has land not been conquered, taken and redrawn time and time again throughout the history of man? This land was surrendered to the British by the Ottoman empire, thus making it British land. Also, the people there were given plenty of choice, however they chose to fight again the large influx of jewish settlers and then chose to leave Israel because of the impending Arab attack. Why should they be allowed back in? Why would a country allow enemy combatants to enter their territory knowing what the result would be, does this not seem stupid to you? The Arab countries tried to reconquer this land and could not, they lost time and time again. I hate to be the one to have to break it this way every time but land is often the spoils of war, and Israel has certainly won it fair share of engagements

None of this makes me feel any better, I dont particularly care who inhabits Israel or the land that Israel is cut out of, I live where I please. I am not sure what NK or SK or Iraq has to do with Israel. Palestinians are killed on their land because they launch mortar attacks against another. Their land is taken because they use it to launch these attacks. The more they attack the more they lose, whose fault is that? Stop attacking, stop losing, pretty simple.

And yes I do say spoils of war, Israel was created from a British mandate, not Palestine or anything else, the land was conquered and taken just as it was the last time when the Muslims took control of it. What made that any better? The simple answer is nothing made it better, the only difference is that the people who lost the land then were able to walk away with their dignity and lives, something the people of Palestine cannot say.

How exactly do you give someone a "fair chance" in war, just by the way? War is not fair, it is not polite, it is not a likable thing, it is not fun, it is gory, it is rude, it is sick. Take this quote with you "All is fair in love and war"

I hope you dont feel as though I am being rude or unreasonable, I just am giving a perspective.

[Muezzin]

Everything that needs to be said on this thread has been. It's going more off-the rails than... well, British Rail, and it should really be closed now.

If you disagree, feel free to PM either myself or a fellow World Affairs moderator.