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Showkat
12-11-2007, 05:14 PM
Dad charged in teen's death
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/284350

A 16-year-old girl is dead and her father has been charged with murder after an attack in a Mississauga home.

Aqsa Parvez, a student at Applewood Heights Secondary School, had been on life support in hospital since yesterday morning.

Police went to the family's two-storey home on Longhorn Trail about 8 a.m. yesterday after receiving a 911 call in which a man allegedly claimed to have killed his daughter.

Paramedics found Aqsa with a faint pulse and rushed her to hospital. She was later transferred to a Toronto hospital and placed on life support.

Peel police said this morning that she died overnight.

Friends at the victim’s school said she feared her father and had argued over her desire to shun the hijab, a traditional shoulder-length head scarf worn by females in devout Muslim families.

Homicide investigators had been standing by, as it soon became clear the young girl wouldn't survive the attack.

Muhammad Parvez, 57, has been remanded in custody and was to make his first court appearance today in a Brampton court.

The victim's brother, 26-year-old Waqas Parvez, was also arrested on a charge of obstructing police.

Neighbours described the family as very private and said several members from three generations have lived in the two-storey home, near Hurontario St. and Eglinton Ave., for just over two years.

School chums say Aqsa had been arguing with her family for months over whether she should wear the hijab.

Pal Ebonie Mitchell, 16, and other friends said Aqsa still wore the hijab to school last year, but rebelled against dressing in it this fall.

They said she would leave home wearing the traditional garment and loose clothing, but would often change into tighter garments at school.

She would change back for the bus trip home.

"Sometimes she even changed her whole outfit in the washroom at school," Mitchell said.


The teen was known to her classmates and Facebook friends as Axa. She posted several pictures of herself on the website in colourful clothes and accessories.

At Aqsa's high school, friends gathered in groups yesterday, struggling to come to grips with what happened and lamenting how she had quarrelled with her father to the point that she recently moved out to live with a friend.

"She said she was always scared of her dad, she was always scared of her brother ... and she's not scared of nobody," said classmate Ashley Garbutt, 16.

"She didn't want to go home ... to the point where she actually wanted to go to shelters."

Friends said the root of her problems was a desire to blend in with friends at school, to wear the fashionable clothes she liked to buy on trips to Toronto's garment district, where she went with friends just last month.

"She liked fashion," said Mitchell. "We went to different stores; she was shopping; she bought lots of clothes."

"She loved clothes, she loved shopping and she loved taking pictures of herself," classmate Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, 16, said outside the school as friends sobbed at the news.

"She just wanted to show her beauty. She just wanted freedom, freedom from her parents."

"She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person," said Holmes-Thompson.


"She was a very kind person, she was really nice; everybody loved her."

Friend Shianne Phillips, 16, said she last spoke with Aqsa on Friday.

"She was crying and she was like ‘I'm really scared to go home. I don't know what I'm going to do.' And that was it," Phillips said.

Comment:

Another sad example of conflicting cultures and values. This is a very common dilemma which Muslim families face living in the west and some resort to violence out of sheer frustration as this case shows.

The way forward is to teach children from an early age about the Islamic beliefs and teachings and for girls to wear the hijab from an early age so that they understand and get used to wearing it. Also where possible to send the children to Islamic schools or predominantly Muslim ones where wearing the Islamic dress code is seen as normal as opposed to majority non-Muslim schools where the pressure is greater to follow the freedom lifestyle and ignore the commands of Allah swt.
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Joe98
12-12-2007, 12:56 AM
Another example of the western press painting islam in a bad light!

Toronto: man kills his daughter for not wearing hijab


http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1


Friends and classmates of a 16-year-old girl who police say was murdered by her devout Muslim father in a Toronto suburb told local media Tuesday she was killed for not wearing a hijab.

Police said in a statement they received an emergency call at 7:55 am local time Monday from "a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter."

The victim, Aqsa Parvez, was "rushed to hospital with life-threatening injuries, but tragically passed away late last night."

Her father, Muhammad Parvez, 57, was arrested at the scene and will be formally charged with murder when he appears in court Wednesday, said police.

The girl's friends, meanwhile, told local media she was having trouble at home because she did not conform to the family's religious beliefs and refused to wear a traditional Islamic head scarf, or hijab.

"She wanted to go different ways than her family wanted to go, and she wanted to make her own path, but he (her father) wouldn't let her," one of her classmates told public broadcaster CBC.

"She loved clothes," another of her friends, Dominiquia Holmes-Thompson, told the daily Toronto Star. "She just wanted to show her beauty ... She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person."

According to her friends, Aqsa had worn the hijab at school last year, but rebelled in recent months.

They said she would leave home wearing a hijab and loose-fitting clothes, but would take off her head scarf and change into tighter garments at school, then change back before going home at the end of the day.

The victim's 26 year-old brother was also charged with obstructing police in the investigation.
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crayon
12-14-2007, 10:43 AM
"TORONTO (Reuters) - A Canadian teenager who was said to have clashed with her father about whether she should wear a traditional Muslim head scarf died of injuries late on Monday, and her father told police he had killed her.

Aqsa Parvez, 16, was found without a pulse in her home in the Toronto suburb of Mississauga earlier on Monday. She was resuscitated by paramedics, treated at two hospitals, and later succumbed to her injuries, police said on Tuesday.

Her father, 57-year-old Muhammad Parvez, has been charged with murder and was remanded back into custody after his first court appearance early on Tuesday.

"There was a 911 call placed by a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter," Jodi Dawson, a constable with Peel Regional Police, told Reuters. "Everything else is evidentiary in nature and the investigation is in its preliminary stages at this point."

The victim's brother, Waqas Parvez, 26, was arrested and charged with obstructing police.

The story was on the front pages of Canadian newspapers on Tuesday. The newspapers quoted friends and schoolmates of the victim as saying she argued with her father over wearing a hijab, the traditional head scarf worn by Muslim females.

Photos of the teen retrieved from a social networking Web site show her in Western dress with her long dark hair loose.

"She was always scared of her dad, she was always scared of her brother," the Toronto Star quoted a classmate as saying.

Others were quoted as saying the girl wore traditional Muslim dress when leaving the house in the morning, but would change into other clothes in school washrooms.

Dawson said investigators will likely speak to the victim's schoolmates. The father will return for a bail hearing on Wednesday."

source

Wow.
This scares me.
Of course what the girl was doing was wrong, but killing her?! I'm positive that wasn't the solution.
May Allah help us all.
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Muhammad
12-15-2007, 12:07 PM
Threads approved and merged.
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genki
12-15-2007, 12:11 PM
Killing her would be plain wrong. Wouldnt the punishment for the people responsible also be death in Islamic shariah?
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Bittersteel
12-15-2007, 12:17 PM
no wonder we/Islam and everything associated with us are hated.I am prepare to bet this man came from a rural background.it gives a real bad impression of other devout Muslims who aren't retarded like him.

Another example of the western press painting islam in a bad light!
c'mon you should know we all don't think like that.
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~Taalibah~
12-15-2007, 12:38 PM
:sl:
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society. The girl was wrong, very wrong but i blame it on the parents that she was left to go this way. They left her to mix with kuffaar and bad society especially if it was Muslims that were the bad influence.
However killing her is definitely very wrong! How can he?! He is to blame for her going this way in the first place but even if he wasnt, killing is not to be accepted. This is totally wrong. Further more a 'devote' Muslim will never behave in such a manner.
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genki
12-15-2007, 12:41 PM
What would the shariatic(is there such a word ? lol) punishment be for such a case?
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crayon
12-15-2007, 12:47 PM
Well, I'm pretty sure this is considered murder, so the penalty would be death.
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genki
12-15-2007, 12:48 PM
exactly what I thought. I mean the whole idea of honor killings etc isnt even in Islam itself.
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wilberhum
12-15-2007, 01:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aziz
no wonder we/Islam and everything associated with us are hated.I am prepare to bet this man came from a rural background.it gives a real bad impression of other devout Muslims who aren't retarded like him.


c'mon you should know we all don't think like that.
Of course we don't, but "bad press" is a frequent excuse of many Muslims.
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wilberhum
12-15-2007, 01:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sabeeha
:sl:
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society. ................
Now that is sad if you think children need to be isolated from the rest of the world.
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Pk_#2
12-15-2007, 01:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Now that is sad if you think children need to be isolated from the rest of the world.
Duh! They can stay with Muslim kids, ta da!

You're such a loonatic bruv. Jokes, dun cry!
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Bittersteel
12-15-2007, 02:38 PM
Of course we don't, but "bad press" is a frequent excuse of many Muslims.
ahh true which give a further bad impression of us.seriously conservative Muslims shouldn't immigrate to liberal western countries if they have such problems.
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~Taalibah~
12-15-2007, 03:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Now that is sad if you think children need to be isolated from the rest of the world.
I said kuffaar company. Meaning that their influence affects the children. The likes and dislikes of the kuffar kids rub off onto the Muslim's as well as peer pressure, in her case fashion was one of them. She didnt want to dress in her own cultural way but that of which those around her dressed in, believing that she looked better in that.
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Abdulwaheed
12-15-2007, 03:27 PM
Subhanallah thats sad. How can a father do that to his own daughter?
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Amadeus85
12-15-2007, 03:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sabeeha
I said kuffaar company. Meaning that their influence affects the children. The likes and dislikes of the kuffar kids rub off onto the Muslim's as well as peer pressure, in her case fashion was one of them. She didnt want to dress in her own cultural way but that of which those around her dressed in, believing that she looked better in that.
If you have problems with mulims mixing with kufaars tell them not to come to non muslim countries.If you want to live only in muslim community, you should stay where you already are.
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☆•♥°ąყ℮Տիმ°♥•☆
12-15-2007, 03:34 PM
Very sad story and tragic story :(
i feel if she had the right guidance and teachings of islam there would never have been an issue of wearing the hijab..
one comment in the story however really angered me :-
"She just wanted to dress like us, just like a normal person," said Holmes-Thompson.
'like a normal person' are her friends stating that being a muslim is 'not normal' ?!
i feel education is vital in regards to how communities understand each other
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~Taalibah~
12-15-2007, 04:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aaron85
If you have problems with mulims mixing with kufaars tell them not to come to non muslim countries.If you want to live only in muslim community, you should stay where you already are.
I do not have problems kuffaar, to a certain extent. The point i'm trying to drive at is that parents should know to what extent their children are to be allowed to mix with the kuffaar. If the child is getting influenced way too much wrongly then they should take steps to curb it and teach them rightly, let them into Muslim company more, but thats away from topic. This girl fell waaay too much into the kuffaar habits and likes. But how will she get to being like this? Only if she were exposed to it and not much Islamicaly. But of course theres is always the chance that she was and still didnt wan to follow. Allah Ta'aala Knows Best. But the father still didnt have the right to kill her.
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Ali.
12-15-2007, 04:31 PM
Shame on the Father! It's wrong to kill like that!
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noorseeker
12-15-2007, 04:47 PM
Can some one tell me please , in islam what happens to someone who gets murdered, what happens in terms of in the next life , does that girl get her sins get wiped or does will she be judged on wheter she was good or bad. I know allah takes our souls when he likes , but in this case her father took her life.
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crayon
12-15-2007, 04:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by HelloImAli
Shame on the Father! It's wrong to kill like that!
Um, ya think?!
:okay:

About the pressures of living in a non islamic society: that's the main reason my family decided to leave Canada and come to a muslim country. They were afraid that I would be influenced by my friends, and slowly turn into someone just like them. And we left really early as well, I was in the second grade.
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Resigned
12-15-2007, 04:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sabeeha
:sl:
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society. The girl was wrong, very wrong but i blame it on the parents that she was left to go this way. They left her to mix with kuffaar and bad society especially if it was Muslims that were the bad influence.
However killing her is definitely very wrong! How can he?! He is to blame for her going this way in the first place but even if he wasnt, killing is not to be accepted. This is totally wrong. Further more a 'devote' Muslim will never behave in such a manner.
A target rich environment. Anybody want it?
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Bittersteel
12-15-2007, 05:42 PM
I said kuffaar company. Meaning that their influence affects the children. The likes and dislikes of the kuffar kids rub off onto the Muslim's as well as peer pressure, in her case fashion was one of them. She didnt want to dress in her own cultural way but that of which those around her dressed in, believing that she looked better in that.
hey how much are there Muslims in predominantly Non-Muslim nations anyways?she/he is bound to be mixed with the NMs and get influenced by them.It's only natural.

Like Aaron and I previously mentioned Muslims better stop migrating if they are having too many problems.
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Tania
12-15-2007, 07:24 PM
I can't understand whats the point in killing your own children :? What did he accomplish killing her.
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~Taalibah~
12-15-2007, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aziz
hey how much are there Muslims in predominantly Non-Muslim nations anyways?she/he is bound to be mixed with the NMs and get influenced by them.It's only natural.

Like Aaron and I previously mentioned Muslims better stop migrating if they are having too many problems.
Perhaps so.

I live in an Unislamic country, how much have i been influenced? Lots of ppl live in Brits and other unislamic countries, how many still are strong Muslims?
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Pygoscelis
12-15-2007, 07:51 PM
I work in Mississauga, the city where this happened, so this strikes rather close to home for me.

To me this underlines the need for Canadian immigration to get stricter and stop admitting people from cultural backgrounds that would include an "honour killing" concept.

Multiculturalism is good, but only if those cultures are able to co-exist peacefully with each other and are not isolationist.

I see little sense in letting immigrants into the country if they intend on keeping entirely to themselves, viewing the rest of us as people to be avoided or hated or "kaffir" (whatever that means) and simply forming a subculture to create tension we really don't want or need here.

If one can not cope with free society (which includes women having the right to wear clothing one may find trashy) then that one simply should stay away from free society.
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The_Prince
12-15-2007, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

If one can not cope with free society (which includes women having the right to wear clothing one may find trashy) then that one simply should stay away from free society.
actually you just show your society is PERV society, not free society. cause notice what you said, you said we have to deal with women who wear trashy clothes or what we think is trashy, basically in your society your saying women can wear whatever they want. yes, as long as its trashy its ok, but hijab is being banned, so no no its not FREE society, its PERV society and you just proved it. you can wear very very revealing clothes, but when you were the hijab BANNED GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Evil:
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Keltoi
12-15-2007, 08:00 PM
I think we (non-Muslims) should be careful about painting all Muslim immigrants with this broad brush. Obviously the majority of Muslims living in the U.K. or North America do not believe in honor killings or any killing for that matter. There is plenty of horrible non-Muslim violence going on out there, and I dare say it is a far greater threat to all of us than this one horrible incident involving one particular father.
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Pk_#2
12-15-2007, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think we (non-Muslims) should be careful about painting all Muslim immigrants with this broad brush. Obviously the majority of Muslims living in the U.K. or North America do not believe in honor killings or any killing for that matter. There is plenty of horrible non-Muslim violence going on out there, and I dare say it is a far greater threat to all of us than this one horrible incident involving one particular father.
Tis sad, hmm

It's not like she would have been rewarded if she was forced to wear one! Astaghfirullah,

Allahu Alim (Allah knows best)

If you have problems with mulims mixing with kufaars tell them not to come to non muslim countries.If you want to live only in muslim community, you should stay where you already are.
Err England? Ok then, But i much prefer Indonesia, One day inshaAllah (God willing)
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Pygoscelis
12-15-2007, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by The_Prince
actually you just show your society is PERV society, not free society. cause notice what you said, you said we have to deal with women who wear trashy clothes or what we think is trashy, basically in your society your saying women can wear whatever they want. yes, as long as its trashy its ok, but hijab is being banned, so no no its not FREE society, its PERV society and you just proved it. you can wear very very revealing clothes, but when you were the hijab BANNED GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :Evil:
Please show me where Ontario society (the free society I spoke of) has banned women from wearing hajib? The only news I'm heard of regarding muslim head coverings in Canada was the case in Quebec where women were not allowed to vote wearing the full head covering that covered the whole face. That was an identity issue (you need to know the person voting is registered to vote and not voting twice etc). Other concerns over head coverings may stem from security concerns (covering ones face to conceal their identity). These are all valid concerns in keeping a free society secure. Anywhere I can wear a ski mask and cover my face you should be allowed to wear the islamic full face covering. If either one of these cases gets special treatment then we have a legitimate cause for concern. Meanwhile, a woman in a bikini or topless could not pose such a threat. Its clear who she is and she can't be hiding anything in her non-clothing.

Nowhere in Canada has the normal hajib (the one where you can still see her face) been banned or discouraged. We may mock you for being prudes but that is just free speech. If we ever actually BAN women from wearing those things then it would be cause for concern for all of us (because who says it'd stop there).
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Pygoscelis
12-15-2007, 10:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I think we (non-Muslims) should be careful about painting all Muslim immigrants with this broad brush. Obviously the majority of Muslims living in the U.K. or North America do not believe in honor killings or any killing for that matter. There is plenty of horrible non-Muslim violence going on out there, and I dare say it is a far greater threat to all of us than this one horrible incident involving one particular father.
Taking a dispassionate look at it, if some religions CAUSE people to be threats to society, I see no problem with putting roadblocks up to stop adherents of that religion from entering my country. So the real question becomes whether or not their religion is the cause or if the cause is more based on regional culture from where they came (which I think may be the case, and if so we should shift away from focus on the religion and move to focus on the regional culturre) or if this is just a unique case of insanity (in which case there isn't much we can do other than hope our screening of all immigrants from everywhere does better next time)
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Intisar
12-15-2007, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by genki
What would the shariatic(is there such a word ? lol) punishment be for such a case?
:sl: Under the Shariah law, the punishment would be death.

This happened in my city, Toronto (Missisauga) and what she did was no surprise. I know so many girls that are just like her subhanallah (May Allah forgive both her and the father, allahuma ameen). What she did was wrong, but what he did not was not the solution subhanallah!! Killing her? She used to put on her hijab when she left home, and take it off when she was on the bus and vice versa when she was coming home from school.

Yesterday the khatib at the Jumucaa was talking about this. Soooo many ppl were saying how she deserved this, and who knows whether we've commited more grave sins than she did! And the father, the father was probably in just an utter state of shock because he was the one who called the police. :cry:
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Resigned
12-15-2007, 10:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
:sl: Under the Shariah law, the punishment would be death.

This happened in my city, Toronto (Missisauga) and what she did was no surprise. I know so many girls that are just like her subhanallah (May Allah forgive both her and the father, allahuma ameen). What she did was wrong, but what he did not was not the solution subhanallah!! Killing her? She used to put on her hijab when she left home, and take it off when she was on the bus and vice versa when she was coming home from school.

Yesterday the khatib at the Jumucaa was talking about this. Soooo many ppl were saying how she deserved this, and who knows whether we've commited more grave sins than she did! And the father, the father was probably in just an utter state of shock because he was the one who called the police. :cry:
For as long as women think it is a sin for not dressing in a way mandated by a male dominated and controlled society, there will be a continuation of this madness of ‘honor” killings.

But hey, why argue theological/cultural issues when you can just settle your doctrinal disputes with a split second of emotionally explosive conflict resolution?
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Belief_is_Power
12-15-2007, 10:35 PM
If a women does not want to waer hijab, then that is her choice, no need for violence.
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Intisar
12-15-2007, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
For as long as women think it is a sin for not dressing in a way mandated by a male dominated and controlled society, there will be a continuation of this madness of ‘honor” killings.

But hey, why argue theological/cultural issues when you can just settle your doctrinal disputes with a split second of emotionally explosive conflict resolution?
We don't know whether this was indeed an "honour" killing.

And I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence, are you trying to insinuate that Islam and all other religions are controlled by men? :?:mmokay:
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Resigned
12-15-2007, 10:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
We don't know whether this was indeed an "honour" killing.
Oh, please. The circumstances are all too familiar.

And I don't understand what you mean by your first sentence, are you trying to insinuate that Islam and all other religions are controlled by men? :?:mmokay:
Islam, yes. Others, no.
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Intisar
12-15-2007, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
Oh, please. The circumstances are all too familiar.


Islam, yes. Others, no.
If it's an ''honour killing'' then it completely goes against Islam and is merely cultural. So there goes your whole ridiculous argument.
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Belief_is_Power
12-15-2007, 10:56 PM
the above post is right, your argument is lame and typical of critics of Islam.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2007, 04:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Belief_is_Power
the above post is right, your argument is lame and typical of critics of Islam.
Well that is the crux of the matter. Is it the religion or the regional culture that caused this "honour killing" mentality. Whichever it is, address it directly and clamp down on its entry into our country.
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Sarada
12-16-2007, 05:05 AM
Salaam Sisters and Brothers,

I would like to make two points: One, is that this murder is now being portrayed as domestic violence rather than as an Islamic issue.

To those who believe that this young girl was overly influenced by "kuffars"and therefore her parents should have ensured that she was protected from the general society, let me tell you about my brother, who is a very devout person who took his family to live in a remote part of Ontario so that his children would not be influenced by society in the suburbs. What happenned? Both of his children became heavily involved with drugs and alchohol.

The successful solution is to give your children the tools to resist negative peer pressure, not to shelter them from it.

Negativity is everywhere, and we need to have positive influences in our lives to help us overcome it. Perhaps her parents were not modelling the more positive aspects of Islam for her.
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Intisar
12-16-2007, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Well that is the crux of the matter. Is it the religion or the regional culture that caused this "honour killing" mentality. Whichever it is, address it directly and clamp down on its entry into our country.
It's obvious that it's not something that had to do with Islam, it was purely culture. You're from Ontario, flick on the TV and watch the news. All of Aqsa's (Allah ha uu naxariisto) friend say that it had nothing to do with Islam but abuse.

Let me compare how strict Pakistani and Indian Muslim families are within my city than Somalis or Ethiopians are. They mix the culture and deen (religion) with eachother and (not to say that other cultures aren't guilty of this) but such cases are prevalent whether shown on the news or not. She disobeyed him, continuously, and he killed her. End of.

It has nothing to do with Islam, and irritates me to hear and see people saying this. It doesn't take much to know this.

If he were to be in an Islamic country, he would subject to the death penalty under the Shariah law.
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ayesha309
12-16-2007, 06:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Taking a dispassionate look at it, if some religions CAUSE people to be threats to society, I see no problem with putting roadblocks up to stop adherents of that religion from entering my country. So the real question becomes whether or not their religion is the cause or if the cause is more based on regional culture from where they came (which I think may be the case, and if so we should shift away from focus on the religion and move to focus on the regional culturre) or if this is just a unique case of insanity (in which case there isn't much we can do other than hope our screening of all immigrants from everywhere does better next time)
Pygoscelis: are you native Canadian?? becuase if you're not, then Canada it is not "your country" as you called it ..."
I see no problem with putting roadblocks up to stop adherents of that religion from entering my country.
it is the country of the indigienous poeple; the Inuits, the Indians, the First Nations, the Aboriginals; whatever name you prefer.
If you're not Native Canadian, then a person born in Canada or even this man has as much right to Canada as you do; its "his" country as well. so first of all, i see a problem with your judgement of who a "Canadian" is.
There is nothing wrong with a women who covers herself to be "Canadian" becuase the country is hers as much as it is yours. and whether you would like to believe it or not, there are many women in Canada who were born there and who cover ttheir faces and they LOVE it.

As for the killing, welll........obviously it makes no sense, and i would assume this man should get death penalty under Sharia'ah; although in Canada he wouldn't becuase there is no death penatly there.
Furthermore, i think Keltoi is right when she said there are problems of such sort outside of Islam, if you live in Canada, you know gang violence is a more dangerous and more frequent crime then "honour killing"; so perhaps we need to crackdown on that as well, but how do you identify who is a "gangster" adn who isn't?
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Bittersteel
12-16-2007, 07:30 AM
I live in an Unislamic country, how much have i been influenced? Lots of ppl live in Brits and other unislamic countries, how many still are strong Muslims?
how do I know?I think very few are,Sabeeha not all aren't faithful like you.or remain faithful like you.
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Bittersteel
12-16-2007, 07:30 AM
I live in an Unislamic country, how much have i been influenced? Lots of ppl live in Brits and other unislamic countries, how many still are strong Muslims?
how do I know?I think very few are,Sabeeha not all aren't faithful like you.or remain faithful like you.
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Intisar
12-16-2007, 07:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha000
Pygoscelis: are you native Canadian?? becuase if you're not, then Canada it is not "your country" as you called it ..." it is the country of the indigienous poeple; the Inuits, the Indians, the First Nations, the Aboriginals; whatever name you prefer.
If you're not Native Canadian, then a person born in Canada or even this man has as much right to Canada as you do; its "his" country as well. so first of all, i see a problem with your judgement of who a "Canadian" is.
There is nothing wrong with a women who covers herself to be "Canadian" becuase the country is hers as much as it is yours. and whether you would like to believe it or not, there are many women in Canada who were born there and who cover ttheir faces and they LOVE it.

As for the killing, welll........obviously it makes no sense, and i would assume this man should get death penalty under Sharia'ah; although in Canada he wouldn't becuase there is no death penatly there.
Furthermore, i think Keltoi is right when she said there are problems of such sort outside of Islam, if you live in Canada, you know gang violence is a more dangerous and more frequent crime then "honour killing"; so perhaps we need to crackdown on that as well, but how do you identify who is a "gangster" adn who isn't?
:sl: You're so right sis, barakAllahu feeki. :D

I never even noticed that post subhanAllah, but now I don't even feel the need to write out a lengthy reply because you said it so perfectly mashaAllah.
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snakelegs
12-16-2007, 07:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*

It has nothing to do with Islam, and irritates me to hear and see people saying this. It doesn't take much to know this.

If he were to be in an Islamic country, he would subject to the death penalty under the Shariah law.
you are right.
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crayon
12-16-2007, 08:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Please show me where Ontario society (the free society I spoke of) has banned women from wearing hajib?

Nowhere in Canada has the normal hajib (the one where you can still see her face) been banned or discouraged. We may mock you for being prudes but that is just free speech. If we ever actually BAN women from wearing those things then it would be cause for concern for all of us (because who says it'd stop there).
Well, actually...
Muslim Airport Employee Suspended For Refusing To Wear Knee-Length Skirt
I'm not saying Canada is horrible or any of that, because it rocks, I'm just showing you that it is starting to happen there as well.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2007, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Well, actually...
Muslim Airport Employee Suspended For Refusing To Wear Knee-Length Skirt
I'm not saying Canada is horrible or any of that, because it rocks, I'm just showing you that it is starting to happen there as well.
Well first of all, this isn't about a hajib.

Second, she had the option of wearing slacks (as reported in the link you posted). Its not like she was being forced to wear a mini skirt.

I agree though that she should have been allowed to wear the special garment she designed for herself, even if it wasn't the official uniform of the place. I also think she's going to win her case that she's brought up with the human rights tribunal.
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Pygoscelis
12-16-2007, 11:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ayesha000
Pygoscelis: are you native Canadian?? becuase if you're not, then Canada it is not "your country" as you called it ..." it is the country of the indigienous poeple; the Inuits, the Indians, the First Nations, the Aboriginals; whatever name you prefer.
And why is that? Even those people came across the bering straight long long ago. There were no human beings originally in north america.

If you're not Native Canadian, then a person born in Canada or even this man has as much right to Canada as you do; its "his" country as well. so first of all, i see a problem with your judgement of who a "Canadian" is.
He does NOW. Note, I was speaking of immigration. An applicant for immigration does NOT have as much right to Canada and is not as much a "Canadian" as I am. The mindset and culture of "Honour Killing" was not developed in Canada. It has come with immigrants from backwards societies elsewhere. And we should crack down on applicants for immigration from these societies, carefully screening them to attempt to avoid this type of thing. We don't need this type of man with this type of mindset running around in our country.

There is nothing wrong with a women who covers herself to be "Canadian" becuase the country is hers as much as it is yours. and whether you would like to believe it or not, there are many women in Canada who were born there and who cover ttheir faces and they LOVE it.
Did I write otherwise? No, I did not. I fully support a woman's right to dress however she chooses, be that covered from head to toe (barring security matters) or be that completely nude. Its her body, and its her choice. Not mine and not yours.

Furthermore, i think Keltoi is right when she said there are problems of such sort outside of Islam, if you live in Canada, you know gang violence is a more dangerous and more frequent crime then "honour killing"; so perhaps we need to crackdown on that as well, but how do you identify who is a "gangster" adn who isn't?
This is another problem with current Canadian immigration policies. We have some homegrown "gangsters" we need to crack down on. But we have also recently been letting in a lot of south american and caribean gangsters that we shouldn't be lately, especially in the Toronto area.

Canada has a very lax immigration policy and that needs to change. We've got a lot of land and can support a growing population but we need to be careful with our screening, so that we get the peaceful and productive people and weed out the troublesome ones as much as possible. I'm all for multiculturalism but not to the point of admitting folks with an indian/arabic "honour killing" or south american "gang banger" mentality. Most arabic/indian and south american folks are good, honour killers and gang bangers are not.
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Bittersteel
12-16-2007, 05:07 PM
you said it right.you guys are too generous and need to improve immigration control and use moderate integration measures in order to tackle such crimes.
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~Taalibah~
12-16-2007, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Aziz
how do I know?I think very few are,Sabeeha not all aren't faithful like you.or remain faithful like you.
Do not look at it like that, it is not how i meant it. I do my best, you do yours but that does not make me any better than you, nor does it make me in a position to judge.:peace:
All i'm trying to say is that, today most kids are influenced by those around them easily and if not watched they can go the wrong way. But as i said that is not ALWAYS the case, sometimes even when they are kept in the best of company they go wrong, whatever Allah Ta'aala wills.
I based my opinion on the info supplied, Allah Ta'aala knows best.
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Karimeldib
12-17-2007, 12:37 PM
OTTAWA (AFP)

A Canadian Muslim girl murdered this week by her father was not killed for refusing to wear a hijab, her second family said, according to the National Post daily Saturday.

Lubna Tahir, at whose house 16 year old Aqsa Parvez was staying after leaving her own home in Toronto's Mississauga suburb, branded as "rumors" news stories that Parvez's father killed her for not wearing the Muslim headscarf.

Tahir said that Parvez was religiously observant but mainly had wanted to be more independent and "to get more out of life," and so had asked to move in with the Tahirs in the same neighborhood.


"She was satisfied, she was relaxed that somehow her parents understood that this is what she wanted to do, and they didn't push her to come home," Tahir told the National Post.

Pakistan-native cab driver Muhammad Parvez, 57, was arrested at his home Monday where Aqsa was found by emergency workers near death.

According to Tahir, an immigration consultant who also immigrated from Pakistan, Parvez had gone back home to pick up some clothes.

Police said in a statement they received an emergency call at 7:55 am local time from "a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter."

The girl later died in the hospital, and an autopsy determined that the cause of death was "neck compression."

In the days after her death, friends of the girl told media that Parvez frequently clashed with her estranged family over her reluctance to wear a hijab.

"She would tell us how her dad would always yell at her and how he wanted her to be someone else," her friend Natalie Rance, 14, told the daily Toronto Star.

But Tahir insisted that the girl's four older sisters were also not forced to wear the hijab all the time at home. She also rejected reports that Parvez had a secret boyfriend.

Even so, it was not the first time she had left home, according to the National Post. It said Parvez ran away from home in September, when she fled to a women's shelter.
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IbnAbdulHakim
12-17-2007, 12:42 PM
maybe he tripped and the knife fell in her ?!


making excuses for my brother inshaAllaah. may Allaah guide him and forgive him, and accept his daughter in his mercy and grant her jannah.


Assalamu Alaikum
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~Taalibah~
12-17-2007, 01:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karimeldib
OTTAWA (AFP)


According to Tahir, an immigration consultant who also immigrated from Pakistan, Parvez had gone back home to pick up some clothes.

Police said in a statement they received an emergency call at 7:55 am local time from "a man who indicated that he had just killed his daughter."

The girl later died in the hospital, and an autopsy determined that the cause of death was "neck compression."
Neck compression?
How does stabbing come in?
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Keltoi
12-17-2007, 02:54 PM
I'm also confused as to why stabbing was brought up if the cause of death was strangulation.
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IbnAbdulHakim
12-17-2007, 02:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Keltoi
I'm also confused as to why stabbing was brought up if the cause of death was strangulation.
may Allah remove your confusion lol



lol



Peace
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NYCmuslim
12-17-2007, 03:20 PM
The father should blame himself for not teaching his daughter the importance of modesty.
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Talha777
12-17-2007, 07:53 PM
My sister and a cousin of mine go to the same school, Applewood, as this unfortunate girl, and they knew her as well. However, my sister told me media is sensationalizing and oversimplifying the story. The father did not intend to murder his daughter, only give her a good beating, because she wasn't just refusing to wear hijab, she was being in the company of a dangerous crowd that is into drugs and bad things, and she was wearing very bad clothes as well.
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~Taalibah~
12-17-2007, 08:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
The father did not intend to murder his daughter, only give her a good beating,
:sl:
Although not the main subject of the topic but still part of, If he intended to just give her a beating, how did he end up stabbing or throttling her? This is getting muddled.
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Talha777
12-17-2007, 08:05 PM
Although not the main subject of the topic but still part of, If he intended to just give her a beating, how did he end up stabbing or throttling her? This is getting muddled.
I think he was intended on giving her a really good beating. He may have used a knife for this reason, and due to his understandable anger wanted to just about kill her, but I don't think what ended up happening as unfortunate as it was was his actual intention. I think he should not be given a life sentence and the court should take into account his intention and the fact any muslim parent would be outraged if their daughter was acting like this girl aqsa parvez.
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Cognescenti
12-17-2007, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
My sister and a cousin of mine go to the same school, Applewood, as this unfortunate girl, and they knew her as well. However, my sister told me media is sensationalizing and oversimplifying the story. The father did not intend to murder his daughter, only give her a good beating, because she wasn't just refusing to wear hijab, she was being in the company of a dangerous crowd that is into drugs and bad things, and she was wearing very bad clothes as well.
She was indeed hanging around a "dangerous crowd"...her father.

Good thing he intended only to give her a "good beating". The young strumpet deserved it. Let's see if she tries any more of that hanging around with dangerous kuffar-types.
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extinction
12-17-2007, 09:28 PM
Wow this is utterly disgusting. I don't think its bad press its actually GOOD press cause they are telling us how extreme some people can get while following religion whether it is Islam or any other religion. The father obviously needs to rethink his priorities but he can do that in jail, and secondly I don't think the girl was entirely wrong for not wanting to wear the hijaab. It is common in Western cultures for kids to want to be rebellious and live like their peers. In these times or eras the parents should encourage and speak to their children with kindness and wisdom rather than FORCE it upon them to obey. Try to come to a compromise. This is the way my parents did it with my siblings and I and it worked.
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wilberhum
12-17-2007, 10:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
My sister and a cousin of mine go to the same school, Applewood, as this unfortunate girl, and they knew her as well. However, my sister told me media is sensationalizing and oversimplifying the story. The father did not intend to murder his daughter, only give her a good beating, because she wasn't just refusing to wear hijab, she was being in the company of a dangerous crowd that is into drugs and bad things, and she was wearing very bad clothes as well.
Another example of Violence towards women in the name of god.

Misogynistic ism best.
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snakelegs
12-17-2007, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I think he was intended on giving her a really good beating. He may have used a knife for this reason, and due to his understandable anger wanted to just about kill her, but I don't think what ended up happening as unfortunate as it was was his actual intention. I think he should not be given a life sentence and the court should take into account his intention and the fact any muslim parent would be outraged if their daughter was acting like this girl aqsa parvez.
would it really be considered ok islamically to beat the crap out of your daughter because she wasn't following islam?
in any case, it is not considered ok in (most?) western countries, and as a muslim, you must obey the laws of the land or emigrate.
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Intisar
12-17-2007, 11:19 PM
Wilberhum, You don't make any sense. Don't use words that you don't understand the meaning of. :)

Snakelegs, You're not allowed to beat your wife. If you are having troubles with your wife then you can stop sleeping in the same bed as her, talk to her parents, or talk it out. The LAST resort is beating her. And I believe the context in beating is hardly that. I believe (may Allaah forgive me if I'm wrong inshaa Allaah) that the prophet (SAWS) said that you can tap your wife lightly with a toothbrush. That hardly constitutes beating, but Allahu 'alim (Allaah knows best).

We as Muslims should not condone what he has done, it was horrible, and arguing will do us no good. Allaah subhana wa ta'ala knows best, and will judge her on Yomul Qiymah. Let's not speak ill about her or father, because we will be taking on their bad deeds and they will be taking our hasanat (good deeds).

Islam is not a misogynistic religion, perhaps you should read more into this beautiful deen instead of formulating your opinion based on what you see on FOX (hardly a good source).

Ameena.
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snakelegs
12-17-2007, 11:22 PM
sister-ameena,
i knew the answers to the questions - i was just challenging talha.
p.s. i have never seen fox news - don't even have tv.
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Intisar
12-17-2007, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by snakelegs
sister-ameena,
i knew the answers to the questions - i was just challenging talha.
p.s. i have never seen fox news - don't even have tv.
Lol the Fox News comment was not directed at you, but to wilberhum. Inshaa Allaah no one takes offence to any of my posts, just trying to clear things up and remind people of the adhab a Muslim must have at all times.
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barney
12-17-2007, 11:48 PM
I know this thread might dissolve into another wife-beating thread, but i'm curious, how many muslim men on forums have actually taken a toothbrush, given it a quick swill to get the Colgate 3-stripe minty freshness off it and gently tapped their wife in response to no result from a few weeks of self-enforced celibacy?

(The toothbrush here of course is a swilik and therefore a stick, but the historically accepted ruling is a stick no thicker than a swilik)

I'm just imagining all these frustrated toothbrush weilding males tapping away lightly saying " Right ho! NOW youve done it! Now you really have me at the end of my tether, so feel my anger and start freaking obaying!Or I'll tap you lightly with this toothbrush again"
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Intisar
12-18-2007, 12:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
I know this thread might dissolve into another wife-beating thread, but i'm curious, how many muslim men on forums have actually taken a toothbrush, given it a quick swill to get the Colgate 3-stripe minty freshness off it and gently tapped their wife in response to no result from a few weeks of self-enforced celibacy?

(The toothbrush here of course is a swilik and therefore a stick, but the historically accepted ruling is a stick no thicker than a swilik)

I'm just imagining all these frustrated toothbrush weilding males tapping away lightly saying " Right ho! NOW youve done it! Now you really have me at the end of my tether, so feel my anger and start freaking obaying!Or I'll tap you lightly with this toothbrush again"
A failed attempt at humour. :)

Had you actually comprehended the message that I was trying to convey in my reply, you would've understood that that is the last resort meaning you go through other methods and if there are no solutions left, then tap her lightly.

Nothing works with you kufaars, Muslims beat their wives: they're misogynistic. Muslims don't beat their wives, but lightly tap them: they're ridiculous.
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 01:08 AM
If the other prescriptions do not cause the wife to come back in line, than yes the husband may beat the wife with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell wife situation is serious so you better straighten out for your own good. The "beating" is not meant to physically injure wife or leave a mark on her body.

But all this is irrelevant because it was the man's daughter, not wife, whom he only intended to give a good beating, which unfortunately led to her unexpected death. Its not even manslaughter. Its like if your wrestling for fun and by accident someone gets hurt. Its called an accident, and that's what happened in this case.
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 01:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
If the other prescriptions do not cause the wife to come back in line, than yes the husband may beat the wife with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell wife situation is serious so you better straighten out for your own good. The "beating" is not meant to physically injure wife or leave a mark on her body.

But all this is irrelevant because it was the man's daughter, not wife, whom he only intended to give a good beating, which unfortunately led to her unexpected death. Its not even manslaughter. Its like if your wrestling for fun and by accident someone gets hurt. Its called an accident, and that's what happened in this case.
I never will understand the deep hatred and revulsion that is expressed by people like this towards women.

The next time anyone thinks about how cool their Mom, sister, or wife is, and how grateful you are to have her in their life, please don't forget that girls and women are the same all over the world. They deserve respect and freedom, and they certainly deserve to live.

I think women are special. I think they hold societies together. They remind us men that there is beauty and hope not to be overlooked. They are the mothers and wives and lovers that every good man can be a boy, around. And the wise, patient—if occasionally exasperated!—strength of women is one of the most special and essential phenomena in humanity. A woman should be cherished as the invaluable member of mankind she is, and respected as the sovereign and dignified person she is. A woman should not be buried up to her breast and pummeled with stones of a prescribed size (not so small as to not cause pain, not so large as to kill with one blow—maximum suffering), as a gathered crowd yells Allahu akbar!, until she perishes in a bloody, mangled heap. And all because she had the audacity to treat her body as if it were her own. Women are punished in Islam simply for being women.
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 01:32 AM
A woman should not be buried up to her breast and pummeled with stones of a prescribed size (not so small as to not cause pain, not so large as to kill with one blow—maximum suffering), as a gathered crowd yells Allahu akbar!, until she perishes in a bloody, mangled heap. And all because she had the audacity to treat her body as if it were her own. Women are punished in Islam simply for being women.
And why does this happen? Is it not because the woman committed adultery? You see anyone can show a video or picture a someone being killed or beaten but if the reason and whole story behind it is not explained than it leads to concealing the truth and propoganda. And if a man commits adultery he too is stoned to death, so your last line "women are punished in Islam simply for being women" is totally false. Women and men are punished in Islam rightfully if they commit adultery.
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Cognescenti
12-18-2007, 01:37 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
If the other prescriptions do not cause the wife to come back in line, than yes the husband may beat the wife with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell wife situation is serious so you better straighten out for your own good. The "beating" is not meant to physically injure wife or leave a mark on her body.

But all this is irrelevant because it was the man's daughter, not wife, whom he only intended to give a good beating, which unfortunately led to her unexpected death. Its not even manslaughter. Its like if your wrestling for fun and by accident someone gets hurt. Its called an accident, and that's what happened in this case.
Oh dear. Talha...I suspect you may have difficulty integrating into mainstream Canadian society with ideas like that....or perhaps you have no intention of doing so.

BTW....what "prescriptions" does a wife have to cause her husband "to come back in line". Is she permitted to hit him...symbolically of course?
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 01:41 AM
Wife is never allowed to hit her husband. Best analogy i can give is parents spank their kids to discipline them, but who ever heard of children spanking their parents ?
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 01:48 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

And why does this happen? Is it not because the woman committed adultery? You see anyone can show a video or picture a someone being killed or beaten but if the reason and whole story behind it is not explained than it leads to concealing the truth and propoganda. And if a man commits adultery he too is stoned to death, so your last line "women are punished in Islam simply for being women" is totally false. Women and men are punished in Islam rightfully if they commit adultery.
So, in a bizarre search for disappointment and despair, I decided to read yet another of the musings of one who is making a hateful outcry about those jezebels who would dare disrupt the 7th social order because it clashes with your shallow politico-religious views.

Note to peaceful religionists worldwide who have permanently dropped anchor in seventh century Arabia, and who are now looking to sublimate a love affair with the fascistic infliction of suffering and mass murder in the name of a deity; it's your delusion—have at it.

It’s interesting to be surfing on Arab/Muslim sites in an effort to find the outrage over the brutal treatment of women that self-proclaimed “real muslims”™ would happily engage in. I was just looking for some indignation from other "real Muslims" who represent the true Religion of Peace. I figured this would be a great opportunity to put together some sort of outcry to show how much they despise these "extremists" who "hijack" their religion--right now, while the written image of that poor girl dying as the result of being beaten to a pulp is still seared on my retinas, would really be an ideal time. I even checked at CAIR! No howls of indignation yet. Maybe they just haven't heard the news. Yeah, that must be it.
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 01:54 AM
You obviously have a deeply ingrained hatred of Islam and Muslims in your heart. My question is why are you on this forum, are you here to do anything constructive or just bash our religion to your heart's content and than leave having done your duty to humanity? Let me tell you my friend, we Muslims don't care about "human rights" or "geneva convention". We believe in human responsibilities to Allah, this is our idealogy. We believe in submission not liberty. Islam can never be reconciled with the west, so dont even try.
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 02:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
You obviously have a deeply ingrained hatred of Islam and Muslims in your heart. My question is why are you on this forum, are you here to do anything constructive or just bash our religion to your heart's content and than leave having done your duty to humanity? Let me tell you my friend, we Muslims don't care about "human rights" or "geneva convention". We believe in human responsibilities to Allah, this is our idealogy. We believe in submission not liberty. Islam can never be reconciled with the west, so dont even try.
At times, you remind me of an insurgent. You pop up, spew a load of grief and then disappear into a safe zone when the incoming gets started.

If you had bothered to actually read what your posts contain, you would see that your attitudes and worldview are appropriate for a time not of this millenium. So, if we just throw our culture and institutions to the hateful, ravenous wolves that prowl the West, and if we stopped challenging terrorists and despots who endanger us, everything would be all date palms and camel's milk, and the Arab/muslim world would finally be at peace.

Sorry guys, but the evil Amerisraeli empire wouldn't make very much progress that way, now would it? And we know how you love your weird conspiracy theories, so we'll just proceed with whatever bizarre, byzantine schemes you've made up for us.


Wallowing in self pity will help you not. The debasement was brought on by the impotence which you exhibit. Employ introspection and you shall understand why you serve others. Fix that which makes you slaves and you shall be slaves no more…

Do you understand that the non-believing infidels only hope that you silly wanabe holy warriors learn how to get along? We only start to care about your beliefs when they begin to impact us. Use your holy books to improve your lives…but don’t use them to mess with us…that just gets us angry…
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sapphirine
12-18-2007, 02:26 AM
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society.

I don't think it's possible to avoid this kind of company when you're in a western country - isn't there another solution other than isolating children? with other muslims is a good idea but if you're in a place where there are no other muslims around?
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Talha777
12-18-2007, 02:37 AM
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society.

I don't think it's possible to avoid this kind of company when you're in a western country - isn't there another solution other than isolating children? with other muslims is a good idea but if you're in a place where there are no other muslims around?
I graduated from a catholic school where there wasnt a single Muslim, but alhamdulillah I never compromised my religious obligations. Many people tempted me to drink alcohol and eat pork but masha Allah I never succumbed to their satanic temptations.

However, I think for girls it is harder, they tend to have weaker iman than boys, this is why I think especially in west parents should not send them to school.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Wilberhum, You don't make any sense. Don't use words that you don't understand the meaning of. :)
Why do you assume that I don't know the definition?
What ever the reason, you are totally incorrect.
Islam is not a misogynistic religion,
I never said Islam was misogynistic. But the poster is.
perhaps you should read more into this beautiful deen instead of formulating your opinion based on what you see on FOX
I never witch FOX, got another excuse? But still why do you seam to think I said Islam is misogynistic? :-\
(hardly a good source).
Hardly a good excuse.
Ameena.
You seam to jump to conclusions really fast.

Slow down and read.
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Belief_is_Power
12-18-2007, 04:02 AM
people, people, please stop arguing.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
If the other prescriptions do not cause the wife to come back in line, than yes the husband may beat the wife with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell wife situation is serious so you better straighten out for your own good. The "beating" is not meant to physically injure wife or leave a mark on her body.

But all this is irrelevant because it was the man's daughter, not wife, whom he only intended to give a good beating, which unfortunately led to her unexpected death. Its not even manslaughter. Its like if your wrestling for fun and by accident someone gets hurt. Its called an accident, and that's what happened in this case.
Would it be OK if the other prescriptions do not cause the husband to come back in line, than yes the wife may beat the husband with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell husband situation is serious so you better straighten out for his own good. The "beating" is not meant to physically injure husband or leave a mark on his body.

If not, then what is all this equality stuff we keep hearing about.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

And why does this happen? Is it not because the woman committed adultery? You see anyone can show a video or picture a someone being killed or beaten but if the reason and whole story behind it is not explained than it leads to concealing the truth and propoganda. And if a man commits adultery he too is stoned to death, so your last line "women are punished in Islam simply for being women" is totally false. Women and men are punished in Islam rightfully if they commit adultery.
But it sure is easier to catch the woman. :uuh:
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
Wife is never allowed to hit her husband. Best analogy i can give is parents spank their kids to discipline them, but who ever heard of children spanking their parents ?
As I thought. Equality ya, da.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sapphirine
This is another sad example of what happens when Muslim children are left to associate with kuffaar company and society.

I don't think it's possible to avoid this kind of company when you're in a western country - isn't there another solution other than isolating children? with other muslims is a good idea but if you're in a place where there are no other muslims around?
No it is another sad example of what happens when people have no Tolerance .
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Tania
12-18-2007, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
Would it be OK if the other prescriptions do not cause the husband to come back in line, than yes the wife may beat the husband with a stick but gently, it is more of a symbolic act to tell husband situation is serious so you better straighten out for his own good.
Symbolic act:
stick = broom
5 days without cooking for him
:giggling: i think in the end he will get the message
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 04:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777

I graduated from a catholic school where there wasnt a single Muslim, but alhamdulillah I never compromised my religious obligations. Many people tempted me to drink alcohol and eat pork but masha Allah I never succumbed to their satanic temptations.

However, I think for girls it is harder, they tend to have weaker iman than boys, this is why I think especially in west parents should not send them to school.
I never succumbed to their satanic temptations?

You hate Catholics too.

Is there any thing non-Islamic that you don't hate?
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sapphirine
12-18-2007, 07:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
No it is another sad example of what happens when people have no Tolerance .
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
As I thought. Equality ya, da.





but aren't a wife and a husband equal in the eyes of God?

I cannot imagine a child being equal in terms of maturity and wisdom as his/her parents. so why is the husband entiled to hit his wife and not vice versa?
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Pygoscelis
12-18-2007, 07:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
You obviously have a deeply ingrained hatred of Islam and Muslims in your heart.
I have a deeply ingrained hatred of murderers and abusers of women in my heart. If that includes Islam as you seem to be saying it does, then so be it. But other muslims here seem to disagree with you and speak of Islam as if it was a religion of peace. So which is it folks?

That he meant only to "give her a good beating" is a ridiculus excuse. Beating your daughter within an inch of her life (never mind finishing the job and killing her) is NEVER excusable. It is disgusting and frankly I hope he rots in jail for a very long time.

And you also wrote here about the wonderfulness of stoning people to death because they've committed *gasp* adultery. So some lady has sex with some man other than her husband... why is this any of your or anybody elses business? I mean other than her's and her husbands? And why is her husband entitled to anything other than a divorce?

Let me tell you my friend, we Muslims don't care about "human rights"
Um... I'm half thinking you're not really a muslim at all but a right wing muslim hater who is trying to make muslims look like scum and fuel islamophobia.

Islam can never be reconciled with the west, so dont even try.
So what are you doing in Canada? You do realize that Canada is part of "the west" right? Canada is a liberal country, even more so than the USA. Perhaps you'd fit in more in some backwards middle east country where they chop peoples' heads off for praying to the wrong deity.

I tell you, when I read posts like yours I feel more and more like we should ban Islam outright. But I couldn't support that because I'm a liberal and believe in freedom of religion and freedom of speech and freedom of assembly, and sadly that by neccesity includes yours.
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Pygoscelis
12-18-2007, 07:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I graduated from a catholic school where there wasnt a single Muslim, but alhamdulillah I never compromised my religious obligations. Many people tempted me to drink alcohol and eat pork but masha Allah I never succumbed to their satanic temptations.
Anybody else find this to be the height of irony? This person makes excuses for beating a young girl to death and then speaks of the evils of alcohol and pig meat.
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wilberhum
12-18-2007, 09:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Anybody else find this to be the height of irony? This person makes excuses for beating a young girl to death and then speaks of the evils of alcohol and pig meat.
Me.
I Just had to remark on
I never succumbed to their satanic temptations.
Catholic's satanic temptations?

I bet he was a real hit at school. Bet not a friend.

I'm still trying to figure out why Muslim parents would send there child to a Catholic school.

That had to be tough. Maybe that is the source of all the hate.
Reply

barney
12-18-2007, 11:34 AM
What this thread desperatly needs is the mainstream muslims to get into it, tell talha77 how mistaken, cruel, bigoted, sexist and backward he is being, back it with quaranic verses to show that his veiw is a warped veiw of Islam.

C'mon Muslims, we know your out there.

Oh and to the sister who was saying Beating is a last resort, My whole point was , yes i know its a last resort, and so how many Muslim males actually in practice chase their beloved around with a toothbrush when all else fails.
Reply

crayon
12-18-2007, 11:39 AM
"Oh and to the sister who was saying Beating is a last resort, My whole point was , yes i know its a last resort, and so how many Muslim males actually in practice chase their beloved around with a toothbrush when all else fails."

barney- Not very many muslim males actually do this. Does that make what they do correct, does that make it acceptable in islam? Of course not. People like these combine their culture and own opinions/views and package it all under the label of islam.
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barney
12-18-2007, 05:15 PM
Crayon, do you know anyone who has ever been so incenced with their wife that they have tapped them lightly with a toothbrush as some kind of last resort?

Personally I dont.

I do know two muslim women who have in the past received beatings from their family over "cultural" issues.
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Cognescenti
12-18-2007, 05:38 PM
Wow. It is just like I mentioned in Taliban thread no. 234-A. Opposition to Miscogeny can unite unite Westerners like nothing else.

Christians, atheists, agnostics, druids, peaceniks, hyper-hawks, Lefties, Conseravtives, Commies, Free-marketeers, America-haters, super-patriots. All it takes is some neanderthal to justify violence toward women to make them all jump into bed together.

It is a laugh riot.
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crayon
12-18-2007, 05:46 PM
Muslims are not applying their religion correctly. It is not the religion's fault, but those muslims.

And I personally don't know ANY muslim woman that has been beaten at all. And not to sound presumptuous or anything, because that's not my intention, but I'm pretty sure I'm in contact with lots more muslim woman than you. Again, nothing meant by that, but my point is that husbands beating their wives isn't as common as you think, and even though it isn't, it's still not right.
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Resigned
12-18-2007, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
Muslims are not applying their religion correctly. It is not the religion's fault, but those muslims.

And I personally don't know ANY muslim woman that has been beaten at all. And not to sound presumptuous or anything, because that's not my intention, but I'm pretty sure I'm in contact with lots more muslim woman than you. Again, nothing meant by that, but my point is that husbands beating their wives isn't as common as you think, and even though it isn't, it's still not right.
Just an observation, but I find it remarkable that in all cases, these occurrences of “honor” killings and the generally brutal treatment of women under a sharia are somehow always divorced from islam, even though the Koran contains verses regarding the allowance of striking women.

I find that simply... uncanny.
Reply

barney
12-18-2007, 11:39 PM
Resigned, the Bible is full, well not full, but has its proportion of verses condoning stoning of women.
This is not religions fault.
It's peoples fault for beleiving it as some sort of "high moral code", when it's so obvious humanity has outgrown it.
Reply

transition?
12-18-2007, 11:54 PM
The Story of Man and His Truck PDF Print E-mail
Written by Sister Zabrina
Sunday, 02 December 2007
The Story of A Man and His Truck


My mobile rang late that evening. ‘As Salaamu ‘alaykum’ I answered as I picked up the phone. The next thing I heard was a sobbing sound on the other line. I immediately recognized that voice.

A dear friend was in tears after being yelled by her boss over some administrative mistakes which she admitted done accidentally. She knew that she was wrong and deserved to be corrected. As a professional, she could admit and accept her wrongs gracefully, and had no qualms correcting them. However, according to her, that was not why she was crying.


What hurt her was more of the way it was handled. The yelling and shouting by the boss, plus the throwing of the document file towards her direction. That was what shattered her that day. And who could blame her? Anyone would be shaken if treated in such a way. I know I would. Calming her down took some time but the pep talk to build up her self esteem and motivation again took longer, much longer.

As I sat there, thinking sadly of my friend’s experience that day, I could not help but to ponder on why some people took pleasure in being harsh when getting their points across. Why people choose aggressiveness over a simple advice?



Did they enjoy watching the other person squirm? What was in their mind during the yelling and shouting? Is the mistake worthy of the humiliation they received? Would they, themselves, accept being embarrassed and disgraced that way? Couldn’t a simple discussion, done in a civilized manner do the job for them? Couldn’t the advice be given privately instead of making sure that his voice was heard through the four walls of his office?

It was a heartbreaking moment for me when I was reminded of my Lord’s attribute…

'A'isha reported that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "Allah is kind and loves kindness and gives for gentleness what he does not give for harshness nor for anything else." [Muslim]

Subhanallaah. Allaah is kind and gentle. Allaah, the AlMighty, the Creator and Owner of everything and everyone between the heaven and the earth, is kind and gentle. Who are we? The one who do not even own the cloth we wear, the eyes we use, the air we breathe, the smile we show, the eyelid we batter, the teeth we chew with, the water we drink. Who are we to act in such harsh manner as if we are the perfect one? As if we are the one who has never done and would never do any mistake? As if we are so great? Astaghfirullaah. My heart beats sadly for my friend…

I remembered a hadeeth of my Prophet (SAW) who said that…

Narrated Jarir: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good. (Sunan Abudawud Book #41, Hadith #4791)

Ya Allaah, that is so scary. A person who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good? Who in their right mind would want to be deprived of good, right?

I want to understand this better. Let me think, what does good mean here? Good if defined by the dictionary would mean high-quality, first class, first rate, superior, fine, excellent. Wow, this is really something. So, a harsh person would be deprived of excellent in his dealings?

I need to put it into a context here so that I can understand this better. Say, I am boarding on a plane and facing a problem with my seating. I have two ways to deal with this matter, right? One is to get angry and show my anger, and second is to stay calm and deal with the airline in a gentle and peaceful manner. Which behavior would give me superiority? If you are the person who is handling me, would you like me better if I am calm or if I am angry? That is one question.

Then, say, there is another person with similar problem as me. And he is angry and cursing, while I am calm and smiling. Then, you as the airline rep found 2 seats; one is the first class seat, while the other is at the economy class. Let us all honestly ask ourselves, who would we rather bumped into at the first class? Hmm…




He who is deprived of gentleness is deprived of good.. I got it now, alhamdulillaah…

I remembered reading the Quranic verse which has become one of my compasses in dealing with others

“And speak to him [i.e., Pharaoh] with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [Allaah].”” [Quran 20: 44]

Ya Allaah, when I first read this ayah, it surprised me.



What did Allaah tell us to do? Even to Pharaoh, we are asked to speak gently. You know Pharaoh? Yes, the Pharaoh who chased after our Prophet Moses (AS), who had wronged his people, killed babies. Yes, that one. And how should we conduct ourselves with him? With gentle speech! Can you believe that? Even to a person with such history like Pharaoh,we are asked to deal with gentle speech. Subhanallaah…

And why was the reason given? So that perhaps (no guarantee because it was still Pharoah’s choice), he could be reminded of Allaah through our gentle speech. Subhanallaah. What did that tell us? A person regardless of his current behaviour and action is entitled to be addressed gently. Allaah…

Maybe my friend’s boss should be reminded of this ayah. Maybe he should ask himself, was my friend worse than Pharaoh, because even Pharaoh who denied Allaah and His Prophet was asked by Allaah to be handled gently! Surely, my friend is nothing close to Pharaoh, right?

I reminded myself of this quote I read somewhere before…

Extract The Honey, But Do Not Break The Hive....

How true this quote is. To get to the honey, we should not break the beehive. Instead, we should carefully, systematically and gently approach the hive. Failure to do so would result in us getting bee stings all over, qualify us for a hospital admission and if severe, we might even land ourselves into the a new home 6 feet under! I knew it seems a little bit far fetched here, but these things do happen.

Let me share with you a story I read sometime ago about a man and his son…

A man came out of his home to admire his new truck. To his puzzlement, his three-year-old son was happily hammering dents into the shiny paint.

The man ran to his son, knocked him away, hammered the little boy's hands into a pulp as punishment. When the father calmed down, he rushed his son to the hospital.

Although the doctor tried desperately to save the crushed bones, he finally had to amputate the fingers from both the boy's hands. When the boy woke up from the surgery & saw his bandaged stubs, he innocently said, "Daddy, I'm sorry about your truck." Then he asked, "but when are my fingers going to grow back?"

Astaghfirullaah. When are my fingers growing back? I could not imagine the regret this father must have in his heart. Could you even imagine it? Was the satisfaction worth the pain after? Was the action during rage by the father justified? Could the finger ever grow back? How could the father answer his son?



As I sat there thinking of my friend and this poor boy, I asked myself this question. Have I ever hammered someone else’s fingers? If yes, why did I do it? If yes, whose fingers were they? Why do I have to get that hammer and hurt those fingers? What if their fingers were beyond repair and had to be amputated? Was it a finger or a few fingers? Astaghfirullaah…

I felt a heavy feeling in my heart and I pray to Allaah to forgive me if I have done something unthinkable as such. And to all my friends out there, forgive me if I have hammered your fingers. Please find somewhere in your heart to forgive me whenever you looked at your amputated your fingers, if any…




What about you my friends? Have you ever hammered anyone’s finger simply because you could not control your temper? Just to satisfy your anger? Think about it. Think hard because always, the doer forgets but the receiver does not. Just imagine that your fingers are amputated.. How would you feel? Do you want to make others feel that way too?

In the end, whenever you feel like showing your anger, remember this – pharaoh and finger. Yes, my friends. Pharaoh and fingers. May we all take heed. Ameen…
This reminds me of this story...

http://www.islamnewsroom.com/content/view/395/52/
Reply

Resigned
12-19-2007, 12:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Resigned, the Bible is full, well not full, but has its proportion of verses condoning stoning of women.
This is not religions fault.
It's peoples fault for beleiving it as some sort of "high moral code", when it's so obvious humanity has outgrown it.
Valid point about the verses in the Bible. I think the difference with Christianity was the enabling aspect of the Reformation which allowed that portion of humanity to choose liberty and progress over fear and trembling before an angry Deity. I would include a change in the sociopolitical climate of the era also that precipitated a positive change in the harsh rigidity of the religious belief.

On the other hand, look at the positives. The current religions today that have evolved from those earlier give us a legacy of 10,000 years of garish rituals, human and animal sacrifice, deistic moral codes, cathedral building, sectarian strife, chants gregorian and otherwise, magic beads, smelly incense, golden icons, prayers of petition, public stonings, plastic effigies on dashboards, blind worship of an arbitrarily compiled and dubiously translated book, and lots of guys sporting big funny hats?
Reply

Talha777
12-19-2007, 12:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
and lots of guys sporting big funny hats?



Yes, I have to admit their quite big and funny.
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crayon
12-19-2007, 07:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
Just an observation, but I find it remarkable that in all cases, these occurrences of “honor” killings and the generally brutal treatment of women under a sharia are somehow always divorced from islam, even though the Koran contains verses regarding the allowance of striking women.

I find that simply... uncanny.
There exists no country in the world at this present time that applies the correct sharia. It's just bs under the name of sharia. :)

ISLAM FORBIDS HONOR KILLINGS
Reply

barney
12-19-2007, 08:09 AM
Abdullah ibn Mas`ud, may Allah be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, "The blood of a Muslim may not be legally spilt other than in one of three [instances]: the married person who commits adultery; a life for a life; and one who forsakes his religion and abandons the community."

But the idea is that these adulteresses are given trial first before their blood is spilt.
The Honour Killers simply bypass this step, as they know that if they try to take their daughter to a english court for adultry or for being unattended , the court will just ignore it because it's not a crime.
With no sharia court availible, they dont have any other choice do they?
Reply

crayon
12-19-2007, 08:22 AM
Yes, the punishment for adulterers is death. Both men and women. The punishment is carried out by the state ONLY, fathers can not just go around killing their daughters, like this guy did. And also, four reliable men must testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina. If they can not testify to that, then there is absolutely no punishment to either the male or female.

"With no sharia court available, they dont have any other choice do they?"
It's not up to them to decide. Since there is no sharia court, they simply leave it to Allah. Not take it into their own hands.
Reply

Md Mashud
12-19-2007, 12:13 PM
The way forward is - not killing your own family - for such trivial issues - thats disgraceful.

Im sure, alot of people heard of honour killings/forced marriages. I want to make it clear, Islam has nothing to do with them happening - it is purely disgusting culture (which Islam was indeed brough to destroy such things, even in the time of Prophet :saw:, where indeed alot of sickening rituals were eradicated). Its sad, that it is not so rare to see all these sick honour killings. Never will it be allowed by Islam and those who defend such actions - are NOT representing Islam, but their twisted culture. Things like this is somewhat more frequent in Pakistani (south asia in general) and places like Afghanistan.
Reply

NYCmuslim
12-19-2007, 01:54 PM
First of all, can anyone show me that the Quran says its ok to beat your wife? I do not recall reading such absurdity.

I think 99% of the muslims agree (except talha) that what the father did was wrong. As I have said before it is his fault for not teaching his daughter the importance of modesty. And even if she refused to wear the headscarf she should have at least wore loose fitting clothes that did not reveal her figure and covered her bosom like the Quran says.

[33:59]
O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad): that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[24:31]
And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards Allah, that ye may attain Bliss.
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Qingu
12-19-2007, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by crayon
And also, four reliable men must testify that they witnessed the act and actually saw the male sexual organ inserted into the vagina.
Do you have a citation from the Quran or hadith that requires this level of witnessing of the crime?

This would make adultery unpunishable. Why would God give you a law that could never be enforced?

Are you saying all people executed by shariah courts for adultery were done so unjustly—since it's basically physically impossible for four men (or eight women) to all see a penis being inserted into a vagina?
Reply

crayon
12-19-2007, 05:21 PM
That's exactly it though, Qingu. It was meant to be extremely difficult to prove to make it almost impossible to prove, to really limit the amount of people punished. Basically, it's there so that people who are about to commit adultery think twice before doing it.

*The "four witness" standard comes from the Qur'an itself, a revelation Muhammad announced in response to accusations of adultery leveled at his wife, Aisha: "Why did they not produce four witnesses? Since they produce not witnesses, they verily are liars in the sight of Allah."*
That's from wikipedia.

Also, this law would be enforced if the adulterer confessed, obviously.

If there were 4 witnesses, then no it wasn't unjustly. If there weren't, which there probably weren't, because like you said, it's virtually impossible to have 4 witnesses for an act like this, unless they're like in the middle of the street or something, then yes, the shariah court ruled unjustly.

That's what is meant by muslims when we say that the sharia is not properly implemented in any country in the present day.
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Isambard
12-19-2007, 06:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
First of all, can anyone show me that the Quran says its ok to beat your wife? I do not recall reading such absurdity.
4:34
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Muezzin
12-19-2007, 06:50 PM
Knock knock.

-Who's there?

Off.

-Off who?

Off topic. There's plenty of other threads about certain of these issues. And if not, make one.

-Your knock knock jokes suck, man.
Reply

Anisa19
12-19-2007, 08:24 PM
May Allah forgive her for her sins, ameen

May Allah make it easy on the family. ameen

I don't know the full story, but he shouldn't have killed his daughter. He gets some of the blame for sticking her in such an environment to start with (school). If friends had such an effect on her, he should have placed her on home studies, or perhaps moved her to a better school.

I hate the concept of "honor killings". Exactly whose honor are you protecting?? Your family, tribe's??

They sure aren't "protecting" Islam's honor....

Wa'alaykum Asalaam
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Nabooly
12-19-2007, 09:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Talha777
I think he was intended on giving her a really good beating. He may have used a knife for this reason, and due to his understandable anger wanted to just about kill her, but I don't think what ended up happening as unfortunate as it was was his actual intention. I think he should not be given a life sentence and the court should take into account his intention and the fact any muslim parent would be outraged if their daughter was acting like this girl aqsa parvez.
If his daughter was sexually active, hooked on drugs, and drinking, that still doesnt give him the right to do anything like giving her a beating!

What kind of an outrageous comment is that????????????????? :X:X:X
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Resigned
12-19-2007, 11:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
First of all, can anyone show me that the Quran says its ok to beat your wife? I do not recall reading such absurdity.
Here ya' go.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/004.qmt.html

004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
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NYCmuslim
12-19-2007, 11:44 PM
Ah yes, I have come across this one and I will tell you that these are incorrectly translated.

The arabic word "adribhu" used here was translated as "to beat" or "to strike". This word comes from the root word "dharab" (dad-ra-ba), which has many different meanings, which includes "to separate" or "leave".

Using this word in accordance to the context of the Quran, the husband is told to first talk with his wife about the marraige problem, then to leave her in the bed (forbid sexual relations with her). If all else fails then the husband should split with his wife and separate from her. Not necessarily divorce her in order to leave the chance of reconciliation ("if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance)".

Knowing the true message of the Quran this seems to be the most sensible interpretation to me.

And Allah knows best

Peace
Reply

wilberhum
12-19-2007, 11:46 PM
NYCmuslim
"if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance)"
What if it is the husband that has been disobedient?
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NYCmuslim
12-19-2007, 11:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
NYCmuslim

What if it is the husband that has been disobedient?
The wife can do the same thing. The woman can even divorce the husband if she wants:

If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves [4:128]
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wilberhum
12-20-2007, 12:01 AM
On second thought.
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NYCmuslim
12-20-2007, 12:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by wilberhum
On second thought.
LOL, what happened brother? You said "Wow now thats equality" and then you edited your post. :D

Peace
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wilberhum
12-20-2007, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
LOL, what happened brother? You said "Wow now thats equality" and then you edited your post. :D

Peace
Well on second thought I could see that I was criticizing Islam. :?

My choice is to criticize people not religion. :D
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Resigned
12-20-2007, 12:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
Ah yes, I have come across this one and I will tell you that these are incorrectly translated.

The arabic word "adribhu" used here was translated as "to beat" or "to strike". This word comes from the root word "dharab" (dad-ra-ba), which has many different meanings, which includes "to separate" or "leave".

Using this word in accordance to the context of the Quran, the husband is told to first talk with his wife about the marraige problem, then to leave her in the bed (forbid sexual relations with her). If all else fails then the husband should split with his wife and separate from her. Not necessarily divorce her in order to leave the chance of reconciliation ("if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance)".

Knowing the true message of the Quran this seems to be the most sensible interpretation to me.

And Allah knows best

Peace
Ah yes, another poster on an internet message board who possesses a wealth of knowledge that escapes all others.

I’ve noticed yours is a common tactic of apologists: simply invent a new meaning for terms / expressions when they don’t fit into nicely compartmentalized usage.

Unfortunately for you, the three translations posted are courtesy of the most widely accepted sources.
Reply

NYCmuslim
12-20-2007, 01:13 AM
You think Im making this up? Why dont you have a look for yourself:

= Daad-Ra-Ba = to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march own, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away thing (with 'an).
Depressed ground, hard ground in a plain, sandy valley, commissioner as he has to travel much.
Kind manner, lean, thin, similar, alike, the act of striking, a blow, going from place to place, vicissitude of life, affliction especially that which relates to one's person, as disease, death, degradation is common and general suffering.
beat, struck, smote, hit, the making a thing fall upon another thing, discipline/train, to cast forth, threw or flung it, seal/stamp, veil/curtain/cover/barrier, to point or make a sign, prohibit/hinder/prevent/withheld/restrain, collision, corrupted/disordered/disturbance/unsettled/confused, turn away, avoid, shun, fashion/mould/adapt, mention or set forth (e.g. a parable/example), explain, make a way, multiplying, go/travel, went away, it was or became long, excite/incite/urge/instigate, contend, dispose/accommodate, retract/digression/transition, to silence, tremble/shiver, share/portion.
Location where something is struck, wool or goat's hair separated or plucked or beaten with a mallet, sword, tent-peg, mallet.

daraba vb. (I) - perf. act. 3:156, 4:94, 4:101, 5:106, 14:24, 14:45, 16:75, 16:76, 16:112, 17:48, 18:11, 25:9, 25:39, 30:28, 30:58, 36:78, 39:27, 39:29, 43:17, 43:58, 66:10, 66:11,
impf. act. 2:26, 8:50, 13:17, 13:17, 14:25, 16:74, 24:31, 24:31, 24:35, 29:43, 43:5, 47:3, 47:27, 59:21, 73:20,
impv. 2:60, 2:73, 4:34, 7:160, 8:12, 8:12, 18:32, 18:45, 20:77, 26:63, 36:13, 38:44,
perf. pass. 2:61, 3:112, 3:112, 22:73, 43:57, 57:13,
n. vb. 2:273, 37:93, 47:4]

Lane’s Lexicon, Volume 5, pages: 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68
Project Root List (based on Lane's Arabic lexicon):
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

Unfortunately for you, the three translations posted are courtesy of the most widely accepted sources.
So just because it is widely accepted it is fact? Need I remind you that this is an english interpretation/translation and it is subject to error.
Reply

Resigned
12-20-2007, 01:23 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
You think Im making this up? Why dont you have a look for yourself:



Project Root List (based on Lane's Arabic lexicon):
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm



So just because it is widely accepted it is fact? Need I remind you that this is an english interpretation/translation and it is subject to error.
That's a lot of cutting and pasting but you should be aware that your interpretations/translations are english and thus subject to error.
Reply

NYCmuslim
12-20-2007, 01:28 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
That's a lot of cutting and pasting but you should be aware that your interpretations/translations are english and thus subject to error.
Indeed it is. Thats why it is always best to compare different translations and also be able to understand how a word in arabic is used in other verses in the Quran in order to get a better understanding of its contextual meaning. No translation is 100% perfect.
Reply

Resigned
12-20-2007, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by NYCmuslim
Indeed it is. Thats why it is always best to compare different translations and also be able to understand how a word in arabic is used in other verses in the Quran in order to get a better understanding of its contextual meaning. No translation is 100% perfect.
Which is why your lengthy assembly of translations / interpretations did nothing to refute the most widely accepted sources I posted.
Reply

NYCmuslim
12-20-2007, 01:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Resigned
Which is why your lengthy assembly of translations / interpretations did nothing to refute the most widely accepted sources I posted.
Its not my problem if you dont accept my explaination. I'll say what I have to say and I'll leave the rest b/w you and God. Im not forcing you to agree with anything. I wont waste my time trying to convince you if you are not willing to be open minded. Plus I want don't this thread to get off-topic. Im done for now, I have a paper due friday.

Peace
:w:
Reply

IB-Staff
12-20-2007, 01:44 AM
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...e-beating.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/30825-post18.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...erse-34-a.html

:uhwhat


:threadclo
Reply

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