The creation??

[One Man Army]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, waheguru ji ki fateh

its bin a while since iv posted on here. so i fout mite as well add my bit.

ok theres something that hit me the other day. i need some guidence from my islamic brothers and sisters.

on this forum i learnt that islam says that allah and his creation are to seperate thing. allah has created the creation. but does not reside within it.

now if we fink of 2 different objects, lets say, one being Allah (forgive me for event trying to describe allah in this way, its just the only way i can get it down on here). and another the creation.

for allah to be seperate to the creation, there then therefore must be a bigger void or entity containing the two? also meaning that as allah doesnt reside with in creation, allahs power is limited, either to that void that the 2 reside within, or the fact that they do not reside within the creation themself. i dont mean to offend any one, nor am i trying to prove some theory, its a geniuine query thats come to my attention a few days back.

my belief is that allahs power is limitless and unbound. if they are the supreme being, then they must be residing within all dimensions, space, time, etc. if they are seperate to it, then they are limited hence by a bigger power containing the two, creation and Allah. what is the islamic view on this?

[Talha777]

Please no wahegurus.

for allah to be seperate to the creation, there then therefore must be a bigger void or entity containing the two?

This is your wrong assumption. There is nothing that contains Allah, I'll tell you right now your problem is trying to visualize or conceptualize God into some sort of physical form which your brain can compute. This is your problem right there.

No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things.
(Al Anam 6:103)

No one can visualize or conceptualize Allah, HE IS ABOVE ALL COMPREHENSION. This is an important point you need to understand. If a human being can conceptualize God it can only be by comparing Him to something or understanding Him in some familiar form. But this is wrong, because Allah says in Holy Quran:

And there is none like unto Him
(Al Ikhlas 112:4)

So again, Allah does not reside in any void, you must not understand God as having to reside in something, you must understand Him only as being ABOVE AND BEYOND all the creation. And He is distinct from the creation, for if Allah is inside the creation as sikh believe, than this is limiting His Power and defiling His Sacredness and not befitting of His Holiness.

I hope this answers your question.

[barney]

Your question is one that Atheists and Agnostics debate on a daily basis.

As your brother above says, your trying to use human reasoning. In order to have faith, that must be put aside.

[alcurad]

following your train of thought, wouldn't the creator still be in a void that contained him if he were part of the world?

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[Belief_is_Power]

make it simple, worship the creator not the creation.

[truemuslim]

^^^ perfect

[AvarAllahNoor]

Please no Wahegurus.

Waheguru is the name used by Sikhs for God. Plus it's a salutaion, nothing more so please respect it. :D

Personally the belief that God is limited to the heavens above and nothing else, would limit Gods ability (or the perception of his abilty). God resides EVERYWHERE.

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fath (Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

[alcurad]

allah's ability to influence and change extends to all creation, he is not up in heaven either, he is beyond being constrained by physical limits.You still haven't replied to me though, if god were part of all his creation wouldnt he be limited by whatever limits them aswell? besides what would be the whole point of creating in the first place?

[ricardo_sousa]

and who create God?

[AvarAllahNoor]

And who create God?

God is self created.(Saibhang Sai (Self) Bhang (Existent) Or if he was created by another, this would mean his creator would then be labelled God.

[ricardo_sousa]

God is self created.(Saibhang Sai (Self) Bhang (Existent) Or if he was created by another, this would mean his creator would then be labelled God.

lol, why you don´t say: "there is not answer to that". Is like the story of the chicken and the egg: who comes first?

If God existed, he had to be a creation of "something", but what?

[AvarAllahNoor]

lol, why you don´t say: "there is not answer to that". Is like the story of the chicken and the egg: who comes first?

If God existed, he had to be a creation of "something", but what?

No answer I hear you say? I've jsut given you an answer my fellow chap! :o)

The God of the world and beyond is Self Created. *Bangs Gavel*

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ke Fath (Pure Ones Belong To God, Victory To God)

[ricardo_sousa]

So God came from "nothing"?

[anatolian]

and who create God?

Wrong question.Atheists/Agnostics have many wrong quesions.If someone has created "God" then God wouldn't be God ,because God is the One who doesnt need another thing to exist. Quran 112:2 Allah is Samad(the One who needs nothing,whom everything needs)

[AvarAllahNoor]

So God came from "nothing"?

God cannot be explained.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:
There are two theories relating to God.

1) He exists and therefore must have been created (just like everything). In which case, no man will ever know this answer. Additionally, this theory assumes that The Creator has only one meaning - that is its common everyday meaning e.g. I created a painting.

2) He exists but passages from the Quran (and possibly other holy books) suggest that His existence does not mean he had a maker. This theory therefore means that there are two definitions to a creator. One relates to a being that makes something and one relates specifically to God - a title solely relating to Him. In this case, the creator takes the meaning of The Creator of all things - a namesake and a title as opposed to a job description. In addition to this, there are numerous ayats in the Quran - all aluding to the fact that God wasn't created.

Your average joe often takes theory 1 - if it exists it must have a creator. However, the problem with this is that it becomes a never ending chain of events - in fact, it's much difficult to ascertain the beginning. Whereas, with theory 2, the beginning is clearly defined. Objectively speaking, God's beginning is not stated. However, by understanding what God actually is we can say that since he bares no similarity between mankind, He therefore has no beginning - He is what we can call Eternal. Though, even that is barely scratching the surface of what God is in terms of human description.

[AvarAllahNoor]

the One who needs nothing,whom everything needs)

You've hit the nail on the head. :D

[AvarAllahNoor]

:sl:
There are two theories relating to God.

1) He exists and therefore must have been created (just like everything). In which case, no man will ever know this answer. Additionally, this theory assumes that The Creator has only one meaning - that is its common everyday meaning e.g. I created a painting.

2) He exists but passages from the Quran (and possibly other holy books) suggest that His existence does not mean he had a maker. .

Yes our religion too states the above. It quotes '' If a person who has a thousand tongues began to explain God, he/she would fail. Also, if all the scholars gatherd to fathom God, they too would fail because Allah the master of the whole creation is beyond explanation. :happy:

Gur Fateh

[ricardo_sousa]

Is funny this situation: religious people often accuse atheists of not explaning how the "things" were created, that they believe it comes from "nothing". But when someone asks a simple question of "who created God?" it is not explained.

Have anyone already thought about the limits of the universe? the human concept of infinite to "real things" don´t exist. So what´s is the end of the universe? infinite?

Can "your God", be that God of Earth, but is actually working in a big firm of Gods creating planets trough the universe?

ahh, i spend too much time thinking of this...

[AvarAllahNoor]

Is funny this situation: religious people often accuse atheists of not explaning how the "things" were created, that they believe it comes from "nothing". But when someone asks a simple question of "who created God?" it is not explained.

Have anyone already thought about the limits of the universe? the human concept of infinite to "real things" don´t exist. So what´s is the end of the universe? infinite?

Can "your God", be that God of Earth, but is actually working in a big firm of Gods creating planets trough the universe?

ahh, i spend too much time thinking of this...

You believe what you believe, and I what I do. I have no need to ask an atheist why they hold these beliefs. Each to their own. :D

[ricardo_sousa]

You believe what you believe, and I what I do. I have no need to ask an atheist why they hold these beliefs. Each to their own. :D

it is not a believe, is a fact.

[AvarAllahNoor]

It is not a believe, is a fact.

What is a fact? You believe in the Big Bang theory?

[anatolian]

a simple question of "who created God?" it is not explained.

The question is simple but wrong also.Maybe you can ask the pagans who created their Gods because some of them are created by some other Gods but it doesntapply to the Islamic God beliefe.If Allah was in need of to be created-like us-he would not be the God the One.

The answer is no one.

[krypton6]

and who create God?

What is god? Before you ask for who and how god was created you should know what a (the) god is, and that noone knows.

I'm sorry if you have already discussed this through..

[ricardo_sousa]

I have already explain my views on this subject. But as a final statement: God don´t exist, it is a human creation. And when someone says "God exist because we can´t have come from nothing", so "we" can´t come from nothing, but God can? who have born first? the egg or the chicken? But in the end is all about you want to belief, disbelief or just don´t care(my position).

[krypton6]

Well what your saying contradicts the atheist science; So we cannot come from nothing, but the universe could?

Your doubt is equal to saying; How could ....... come from nothing? FOR YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT GOD IS!

Nothing = nonexisting, the nonexisting is an illusion created by man, for in fact everything of what we know of exists, there is no nonexisting object!

[Keltoi]

This question "who created God?" might sound logical if one believes that God is a physical entity made up of matter. Obvioiusly God is not matter, He is Spirit, and exists outside time and space. Another way to say it is that God created the beginning and will create the end. We as human beings live in a universe of time, space, matter, hydrogen, atoms, etc....God lives outside of these things as they are part of His creation.

[AvarAllahNoor]

I have already explain my views on this subject. But as a final statement: God don´t exist, it is a human creation. And when someone says "God exist because we can´t have come from nothing", so "we" can´t come from nothing, but God can? who have born first? the egg or the chicken? But in the end is all about you want to belief, disbelief or just don´t care(my position).

True!

At the end of the day your belief gets you through your day, and my belief in a God gets me through mine.

God Bless :D

[Cybrains]

To those who don't believe in God, wait until you die and to the day of Judgement...:D

[Cybrains]

I have already explain my views on this subject. But as a final statement: God don´t exist, it is a human creation. And when someone says "God exist because we can´t have come from nothing", so "we" can´t come from nothing, but God can? who have born first? the egg or the chicken? But in the end is all about you want to belief, disbelief or just don´t care(my position).

How could you say that God is a human creation? Maybe you are referring to the idols that you can see inside the chapels and churches..LOL! There are questions that really no one can answer. Example, there is a word "Die" and i guess you believe that you will die. Isn't it? The question is, do you know or can anybody tell you the date, time and place when it comes to you?

[Yerpon]

This question "who created God?" might sound logical if one believes that God is a physical entity made up of matter. Obvioiusly God is not matter, He is Spirit, and exists outside time and space. Another way to say it is that God created the beginning and will create the end. We as human beings live in a universe of time, space, matter, hydrogen, atoms, etc....God lives outside of these things as they are part of His creation.

Hi Keltoi,

I agree with you but just want to add that God lives outside as well as inside our universe because He is omnipresent. Although he is present everywhere, but His existence can not be scientifically observed because He is not subjected to the natural laws. Everything what we know is what we have observed how things behave while they are obeying the natural laws. That is why we can't even observe angels and jinns because the laws of their nature are different from ours. Yes, like you said, the question "who created God?" is illogical because God is not enclosed in time and space (but I don't say "outside of time and space").

[Trumble]

Yes, like you said, the question "who created God?" is illogical because God is not enclosed in time and space (but I don't say "outside of time and space").

A logical and coherent question does not become illogical or incoherent according to the answer given to it.

What exactly does "not enclosed in time and space" (which isn't much better than "outside of time and space") actually mean? If/when we ever sort out what it actually means, then maybe we could start on "can anything be either?" The problem is not whether the question is logical and coherent but whether the answer is!

[Keltoi]

A logical and coherent question does not become illogical or incoherent according to the answer given to it.

What exactly does "not enclosed in time and space" (which isn't much better than "outside of time and space") actually mean? If/when we ever sort out what it actually means, then maybe we could start on "can anything be either?" The problem is not whether the question is logical and coherent but whether the answer is!

What I meant was that God exists "outside"(for lack of a better term) the physical restraints that exist in the natural universe. The whole question about who "created" God is using the logical and rational understanding of matter, time, and space, known to modern science. If God created Jupiter, who created God? That is the line of reasoning I'm referring to. That line of questioning insists that God is something that needed to be "created", just as Jupiter. As a person of faith, I don't find that question to be particularly coherent from the standpoint of my understanding of God. Perhaps my statement is just as incoherent, but its the best I can come up with right now. :D

[Omari]

You can't even ask that question...god came? God was always there, and ricardo I understand what you mean about there is no answer...but some things are to be remained with god and god only. If EVERYTHING was explained to us, and EVERYONE knew wether or not god existed, then I HIGHLY doubt there would be any non-belivers, [the only, being mentally challenged .] And if everyone is a believer than there is no point of punishment, and if there is no punishment whats the point of life? You live to die...
Allah wants to give the choice to his creation, though he already knows what is going to happen, there is always the choice that man makes, and that choice is what will eventualy give you the label of a believer or a non-believer.


The creator was always, is always, will be always. God is infinite. Our human minds are not even close to being smart enough to figure the logic of god. We create a couple of computers, go to the moon, send a robot to mars and suddenly we think we know everything.

Allah says in the quran, Chapter 2 verses 6-7: “As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them Whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.” Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur).”

Peace be with you all
Omari

[AvarAllahNoor]

God is unfathomable, so how can we even begin to explain. No point going on as we can discuss it till the cows come home, yet get nowhere!

[alcurad]

outsude space & time in part means that the physical laws of the universe don't apply to him. Thus the questions of who created him, or when did he show up cannot actually be contemplated in this context since physics does not affect god in the first place, oh and yes he is omnipresent but that does not mean he is part of our world, his will is though, so is his knowledge of everything about the universe. I hope that helped?

[Yerpon]

A logical and coherent question does not become illogical or incoherent according to the answer given to it.

I too can ask you many illogical questions eg. when did you die yesterday? Do you consider it a logical question?

[Trumble]

I too can ask you many illogical questions eg. when did you die yesterday? Do you consider it a logical question?

That would depend on context (it is you who believes in Paradise, not me!) but in general usage and according to general understanding that question is not 'logical' (coherent is the better word, here), no.

However, the question "who created God?" is both coherent and logical. "Nobody created God", or "God was not created" or are both reasonable, coherent answers, but neither answer can somehow change the question into an illogical or incoherent one.

[Yerpon]

However, the question "who created God?" is both coherent and logical. "Nobody created God", or "God was not created" or are both reasonable, coherent answers, but neither answer can somehow change the question into an illogical or incoherent one.

First of all note that we only know how things behave in this universe, so we don't know how things behave in the heavens. Eg. there can't be a square circle in this universe, but we can't prove there can't be a square cirle in the heavens. So whatever is in the heavens, and how they behave may seem completely illogical to us.

Therefore the question "who created God?" is illogical because there was no instant in time when He was created by anyone living in the universe.

Your answers "nobody created God" and "God was not created" are equally illogical. However its logical to say "nobody in the universe created God" or "God was never created in the universe", and unfortunately we don't have the power to think beyond that. Whatever you can know about the heavens is only through the revelation and faith. God gave you free will and ofcourse you are free to believe/disbelieve but He told you about the paradise/hell too!

[Trumble]

Therefore the question "who created God?" is illogical because there was no instant in time when He was created by anyone living in the universe.

No. "There was no instant in time when He was created by anyone living in the universe" is a statement that answers the question. It is a logical and coherent reply to a logical and coherent question. Your own "nobody in the universe created God" or "God was never created in the universe" would have served just as well as 'my' answers, which were purely illustrative. The point is that the question is logical and coherent regardless of the answer given to it!

I think you are having trouble in that you are effectively defining 'logical' as something you believe, or something necessary for something you believe, and 'illogical' as something you don't believe or something inconsistent with your belief. That is not what logic is... beliefs do not determine whether something is logical or not, only whether the answer produced by application of logic happens to be (subjectively) true or not.

[root]

First of all note that we only know how things behave in this universe, so we don't know how things behave in the heavens.

Where is the logic here. Trumble is spot on here when he points out your logic is based on your faith & not logic, the universe is to some extent observable. The heavens, what is that if nothing more than faith.

Eg. there can't be a square circle in this universe, but we can't prove there can't be a square cirle in the heavens. So whatever is in the heavens, and how they behave may seem completely illogical to us. Therefore the question "who created God?" is illogical because there was no instant in time when He was created by anyone living in the universe.

If time does not exist, the notion of an instant in time is just pure fallacy, even today we cannot say for sure time is a physical necessity. New scientific research seems to be confirming that the expansion of the universe never needed time thus we too our outside of time.

Your answers "nobody created God" and "God was not created" are equally illogical. However its logical to say "nobody in the universe created God" or "God was never created in the universe", and unfortunately we don't have the power to think beyond that. Whatever you can know about the heavens is only through the revelation and faith.

Yes, faith always rules over logic.

God gave you free will and ofcourse you are free to believe/disbelieve but He told you about the paradise/hell too!

Free will, if you can prove we have free will then please share it with us all and go collect your nobel peace prize. Now your so called faith based logic relies on more belief, if i tell myself I have free will 100 times a day, maybe one day it might turn out to be true. Probability though is that I have not.

[krypton6]

If god did not give us free will, then would we not all be religious and believe in god?

[root]

If god did not give us free will, then would we not all be religious and believe in god?

No!

[krypton6]

How can you deny that?

The fact that we have millions of atheist, hindu, and buddists proves that god gave us free will!

[root]

How can you deny that?

The fact that we have millions of atheist, hindu, and buddists proves that god gave us free will!

And let us not forget Christians & the thousands of other religions. Additionally, what about the faith of neandethals!

If you seriously consider what your saying relavent proof of free will then in all honesty I am utterly and totally disheartened by you.

You cannot prove we have free will before you even suggest who gave it.

Free will debate over me thinks.

[Muezzin]

And let us not forget Christians & the thousands of other religions. Additionally, what about the faith of neandethals!

If you seriously consider what your saying relavent proof of free will then in all honesty I am utterly and totally disheartened by you.

You cannot prove we have free will before you even suggest who gave it.

Free will debate over me thinks.

Eh? You seem to have jumped from point A to point C without going through point B.

If one believes in God, one might believe God gave us free will.

If one doesn't believe in God, but does believe in free will, then one believe one just has free will as part of one's humanity.

We can all agree that we have free will, surely? What real difference does it make that we might disagree as to its source? The very fact that there are people with opposing views proves that those people have free will to hold them, no? If not, why not?

Unless of course one doesn't believe in free will at all.

[Yerpon]

I think you are having trouble in that you are effectively defining 'logical' as something you believe, or something necessary for something you believe, and 'illogical' as something you don't believe or something inconsistent with your belief. That is not what logic is... beliefs do not determine whether something is logical or not, only whether the answer produced by application of logic happens to be (subjectively) true or not.

No. You didn't understand what I was trying to say. I believe in God although I also believe I can not completely understand Him and neither can I predict what will He do next but I still believe!

Dude, do you believe if anything seems illogical to you, then it is impossible? You are behaving like a "narrow-minded" atheist. I suggest you to come back to the forum after learning something about quantum mechanics or do a few weird experiments in a laboratory to overcome your narrow-mindedness. In quantum mechanics we have plain and dry equations describing a phenomenon but they make no sense whatsoever. Eg. in the double-slit experiment, when we allow one electron to pass through the 2 slits, and measure which hole the electron passes through, then it will only pass through one of the holes as a particle. But if we do not measure which hole it passed through, then it will pass through both holes as a wave. No one can understand this but it is still a fact.

Similarly we can't understand Allah too but I still believe He always do everything absolutely good even if sometimes it seems bad to me.

By the way, do you believe in god(s)? Aren't you a Buddhist?

[Yerpon]

Free will, if you can prove we have free will then please share it with us all and go collect your nobel peace prize. Now your so called faith based logic relies on more belief, if i tell myself I have free will 100 times a day, maybe one day it might turn out to be true. Probability though is that I have not.

Do you mean that free will can't be proved if there is an omnipotent god? What matters is not that free will can't be proved, but what matters the most is that NO one can disprove "free will". Now you are FREE to believe in free will although you can't prove/disprove it. This is what separates a believer from a disbeliever. God will reward the believers and punish the disbelievers!

[Trumble]

No. You didn't understand what I was trying to say.

I understand completely what you were trying to say... it just has nothing whatsoever to do with the point I was making. Your last has no relevance at all to my last so I see no real point in trying again.

[krypton6]

Instead of just saying that you find my "prove" ridiculous, try disprove it!

If god did not give us free will, then we would all be following the same religion or believe. The fact that we have all sort of believes and religions prove that humans have free will!

[wilberhum]

Instead of just saying that you find my "prove" ridiculous, try disprove it!

If god did not give us free will, then we would all be following the same religion or believe. The fact that we have all sort of believes and religions prove that humans have free will!

Or does that prove that there is no god in control. :hiding:

[Keltoi]

From a religious standpoint, free will means one willingly and knowingly either follows the Word of God or willingly and knowingly does not. That is why free will is so important to spirituality.

[Omari]

From a religious standpoint, free will means one willingly and knowingly either follows the Word of God or willingly and knowingly does not.

Agreed, faith and religion is always a choice. You either believe in god, or you don't, you are never forced by god directly to choose.

[krypton6]

Or does that prove that there is no god in control. :hiding:

So you believe that if god existed we would all be following the same religion.
But what's the point of creating us, forcing us to follow the same religion and believe, and then telling us that this is all a test?


You cannot deny the existence of the Sony company when looking at the Sony television in front of you.

And in the same way; you cannot deny the existence of god when looking at his creation.

Nothing of what we know of can be created out of nothing, or can create itself, therefore there must be a creator.

[wilberhum]

So you believe that if god existed we would all be following the same religion.
If? Did I say he doesn't?
I believe in god, I just don't believe in religion.
So, I conclude, that if god really communicated to us, most everyone would belong to one religion.
But what's the point of creating us, forcing us to follow the same religion and believe, and then telling us that this is all a test?
I don't believe there is a point. That's why I don't believe what you believe.
And I don't think life is a test, I think it is a gift.
You cannot deny the existence of the Sony company when looking at the Sony television in front of you.

And in the same way; you cannot deny the existence of god when looking at his creation.
That is as logical as comparing a fish to a bicycle.
Nothing of what we know of can be created out of nothing, or can create itself, therefore there must be a creator.
By that same logic, the creator needs a creator.

In the end it is what you believe. Any claim to proof is just silliness.

There is no proof, there is just belief.

[Omari]

In the end it is what you believe. Any claim to proof is just silliness.

There is no proof, there is just belief.

I don't think silliness is the right word ...

anyhow I understand your point, that it's faith, you choose wether you have it or not. [Obviously you don't belive in any attemt of proof]- But doesn't it make sense to you that god gave you the same option you chose?

In the end it is what you believe.

You chose wether you believe or not, you used your ...right to free will.

And I don't think life is a test, I think it is a gift.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...
It's not much a gift now, is it?
What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

I just want an answer :)

Peace be with you
Omari

[wilberhum]

I don't think silliness is the right word ...
But claiming proof of the improvable is silly.
anyhow I understand your point, that it's faith, you choose wether you have it or not. [Obviously you don't belive in any attemt of proof]- But doesn't it make sense to you that god gave you the same option you chose? You chose wether you believe or not, you used your ...right to free will.
I don't argue against free will. I argue that what krypton6 agreements work both ways.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...
It's not much a gift now, is it?
You would have to ask them. Few people wish they had never been born.
What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

I just want an answer :)
You need to take that up with god. But the lack of answers to those kind of questions is a major reason that don't think god cares much about our daily lives.
Peace be with you
Omari

How do you answer those questions?

[Omari]

Which questions :S?

my own questions?
because you haven't posed any....

[wilberhum]

Which questions :S?

my own questions?
because you haven't posed any....

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

What about those who are born blind, born deaf, born mute, born disabled, born weak, born ugly? ...im sure you know i can go on...

What about them?

What gives you more rights then anyone else in the world, why should you [not you in particular,obviously] have the chance to live life with the best physical or emotional qualities while somone else is on the street because he can't work due to his disability?

What do you think gives me more rights?

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

[Omari]

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.


What about them?

I meant, how are they "gifted" with life. IF i am born perfect, and you were born blind, [this answers the next question too] why is that? Why should I be perfect and you blind? What right did i have over you?


What do you think gives me more rights?

How do you answer the questions that you ask me.

...

[Omari]

You need to take that up with god. But the lack of answers to those kind of questions is a major reason that don't think god cares much about our daily lives.

Can you please explain that sentence? i believe there is an accidental error.. :S

[wilberhum]

Can you please explain that sentence? i believe there is an accidental error.. :S

No error. So I will explain. But first, why after you answered my questions, why did you ... it out?
Any way, I will answer, but I expect the same from you.

Life has been good to me, I have no real complaints, but life is not fare. I just had a nice supper while others starve. My house is warm while others freeze. I don't think for one moment that I am better than them. So why is god punishing them? Is god unfair? Is it a test? Why a test? I love my children and my children love me. I have no need to test them. Does that mean I'm better than god? I don't think go. So really there is no need for god to test people. Heck, he already knows the answer.

If he really cared, he would stop the horrors that befall us. He would not allowed people like Hitler to be born.

So my conclusion is easy, god doesn't care.

[Yerpon]

Life has been good to me, I have no real complaints, but life is not fare. I just had a nice supper while others starve. My house is warm while others freeze. I don't think for one moment that I am better than them. So why is god punishing them? Is god unfair? Is it a test? Why a test? I love my children and my children love me. I have no need to test them. Does that mean I'm better than god? I don't think go. So really there is no need for god to test people. Heck, he already knows the answer.

If he really cared, he would stop the horrors that befall us. He would not allowed people like Hitler to be born.

So my conclusion is easy, god doesn't care.

You are behaving like a typical narrow-minded disbeliever and claiming that you know everything what is good for God.

So my conclusion is easy, god doesn't care.

Your conclusion is wrong because you can't predict the will of Allah.

[wilberhum]

You are behaving like a typical narrow-minded disbeliever and claiming that you know everything what is good for God.
Da, where did I say I know what is good for god?
Why do you make up stuff like that?
Your conclusion is wrong because you can't predict the will of Allah.
I guess you know what is good for Allah.

I accept you believe what you say you believe.
You don't accept I believe what I say I believe.

Yet you say I'm narrow-minded. :uuh:

[Yerpon]

I accept you believe what you say you believe.
You don't accept I believe what I say I believe.

Yet you say I'm narrow-minded. :uuh:

No. I call you a narrow-minded person only when you tell me your wrong conclusions about God. Yes, I do accept the world view of atheists, because I know God will not show us Himself here but only His signs and we are free to believe or disbelieve in Him.

[Yerpon]

Da, where did I say I know what is good for god?
Why do you make up stuff like that?

Well, this is what you said:

[...]I love my children and my children love me. I have no need to test them. Does that mean I'm better than god? I don't think go. So really there is no need for god to test people.[...]

You claimed that you have the power to think that it will be divinely better if God do what you suggest. That is why I said you were narrow-minded.

[krypton6]

So, I conclude, that if god really communicated to us, most everyone would belong to one religion.

So you believe that if god communicated with us we would all be following the same religion. There are 3 abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

Judaism was a valid religion to follow before christianity was born. Humans started changing the Torah and Judaism was no longer the religion of god.
Christianity was the second religion, and it was changed too, adding and taking some out of the Bibel, and it was no longer a valid religion to follow.

The Quran came down but it was never changed! We have a Quran dating back to year 900, and it is identical to the quran that we have today. Not a single word is added or taken out of it! And besides that, we in Islam have millions of muslims who have memorized the quran, and all this started from the birth of Islam. The people who memorized the quran would at anytime have noticed the smallest change, and therefore no one even triet changing the Quran. The Quran are the direct words of god! Some people for some reason still chose to follow Judaism or christianity, but thats their decision.

The quran is clear, we just have to open our minds and eyes for it.

But what's the point of creating us, forcing us to follow the same religion and believe, and then telling us that this is all a test?
I don't believe there is a point. That's why I don't believe what you believe.

I dont believe that god is forcing us to believe in him. I believe that he created us, and gave us free will to either follow his religion (s) or not.

You believe that this being a test is pointless, but you dont believe that letting us live is pointless? I mean if this was just a gift, then it would be a very bad gift. If this was a gift and I was going to die with nothning after it, I would rather have chosen not to be born. The fact that I have to say good bye to my family for ever, is not a gift, and the fact that some are born blind or mutated is not a gift either, its a curse! This isnt a gift, if it was a gift then who ever it is that you believe in would have made it a much better gift.

By that same logic, the creator needs a creator.

What is the creator? What is god? You dont know what god is, and yet your trying to conclude for wether it was created or not?

I see what is in front of me and from there I conclude that it could not have created itself, thereby it must have bin created by a creator. But I dont know the creator, I dont know how it looks and how it is, I only know that it exists, but how can I conclude for myself for wether he was created or not, when I dont even know what it is!

Asking for what created god, is equal to asking what created .....?

You dont know what god is but yet you want to find out what created it?
Everything that I know of has bin created, or must have bin created. God is not included in that "everything" for I dont know what god is! I only know that it must exist!

[Omari]

No error. So I will explain. But first, why after you answered my questions, why did you ... it out?
Oh because I answered in Quote, and i can't post unless i type atleast 3 characters. "..." had no intended meaning,
Any way, I will answer, but I expect the same from you.
Inshallah [If god Permits]

Life has been good to me, I have no real complaints, but life is not fare. I just had a nice supper while others starve. My house is warm while others freeze. I don't think for one moment that I am better than them. So why is god punishing them? Only God knows Is god unfair? No, Is it a test? Yes Why is it a test? Well, should you consider the fact that life would be meaningless unless we come to that conclusion, you would have answered yourself. And you said earlier that life is a gift, doesn't a gift need an originator? WHO gave you this gift? Your parents? who gave them the gift? and when you keep going back, you are left with nothing. A question that I ASSUME bothers you, or perhaps needs an answer for you may be, even if god gave us life, WHY did he? if it is a test, WHY is it a test. Let's regard the first question, Why god gave us life? In my opinion and the opinion of many scholars [Christian and Muslim alike] believe its a way for god to show us his power. If YOU had Infinite power, Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Wisdom, Infinite Logic, then surely you would show it, show it off. And by creating the WHOLE universe, god shows us his power. And in this universe he puts US to the test, will we live the life of good? or bad. If we live good, we are rewarded with paradise, If not, we are punished. Hope that answers the question...
I love my children and my children love me. I have no need to test them. Does that mean I'm better than god? I don't think go. So really there is no need for god to test people. Heck, he already knows the answer.

Thank you. He is indeed the ALL knowing. he does know the answer, so WHY a test? well you have to remember that even though god knows exactly what you do in every milli-second of your life, he still gives the person the right of free will. i CAN choose to press the "9" key instead of "8" for example. So let's say God has a book, [God forgive me if i should say anything unlawful] let's say he has a book, and in it he has written the lifetime of EVERY human that lives or has lived. And the choices that he makes are written there, It is still GOD who created the book, the book did not create god, and therefore it can be changed. Hope you get what I'm trying to say there...


If he really cared, he would stop the horrors that befall us[1]. He would not allowed people like Hitler to be born.[2]

[1]God puts "horrors" to either test people, or punish them. There are many stories in the Quran and in the Bible that god sent punishment to those who do wrong. Wether the Innocent jewish civilians were bad or not, that is for god to decide, and what he does with his creation is also for god to decide.

[2] I do not want to go into discussion about hitler, but as the question has been posed I am compelled to answer. Hitler ALWAYS had a choice. The reasons he practiced genocide vary, but they are NOT justified. Be he STILL had that choice of wether he would do it or not. God did not sent him a command to go and kill all the jews. Hitler was a CHRISTIAN, should he have belonged to Islam, should he have followed the commands of Allah (SW) this genocide would never have taken place. As far as to WHY god made him born...again i say that he had the right to free will just as anyone else. I have the choice of picking up a knife and stabbing 10 people on the street, but then i have the choice of saving lives and becoming a doctor , IT IS ALWAYS CHOICE, and its what you choose that inevitably gives you your "label"



So my conclusion is easy, god doesn't care.

I respect your conclusion, Ofcourse. It is again your CHOICE to think wether he cares or not, and your conclusion is obviously not a fact. So really, the argument to wether god cares or not is really baseless. is it not?

Inshalah I have answered your questions.

Peace
Omari

[Whatsthepoint]

the life of Adam and Eve prior to the apple consumption was a test. They a knew their life was a test - they were perfectly aware that God exist, they knew the rules and were positive they were from God. They failed to pass the test..
Nowadays, there is no proof that God exist, there is no proof that any religion is from God, nobody knows whose rules (moral standards) to obey...which makes life a pretty bad, unfair test.

[Omari]

the life of Adam and Eve prior to the apple consumption was a test. They a knew their life was a test - they were perfectly aware that God exist, they knew the rules and were positive they were from God. They failed to pass the test..
Nowadays, there is no proof that God exist, there is no proof that any religion is from God, nobody knows whose rules (moral standards) to obey...which makes life a pretty bad, unfair test.

There is proof, it's just wether you believe it or not.

Peace

[Whatsthepoint]

In my opinion and the opinion of many scholars [Christian and Muslim alike] believe its a way for god to show us his power. If YOU had Infinite power, Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Wisdom, Infinite Logic, then surely you would show it, show it off.

God is supposed to b a perfect being without any needs so he doesn't need to show off, he doesn't need human confirmation of his power.

[krypton6]

We are not in the role for deciding why god would want to create us.

The same way that you dont know what I am thinking, you dont know what god is thinking and you could never guess.

[Whatsthepoint]

There is proof, it's just wether you believe it or not.
Peace

I disagree.

[Whatsthepoint]

We are not in the role for deciding why god would want to create us.

The same way that you dont know what I am thinking, you dont know what god is thinking and you could never guess.

Does the Quran say anything about it?
It's religious people who constantly use human logic to prove and explain the nature of god/s, not me...

[Omari]

I disagree.

Just the same way you disagree with proof.

[krypton6]

Does the Quran say anything about it?
It's religious people who constantly use human logic to prove and explain the nature of god/s, not me...

No as far as I know the Quran says nothing about why god created us, and I would disagree with any schoolar that claims god created us because ......

[Omari]

No as far as I know the Quran says nothing about why god created us, and I would disagree with any schoolar that claims god created us because ......

As a matter of fact Allah says in the quran, Chapter 51 and verse 57 :
"And I have not created the Jin and man but that they worship Me"

[Omari]

AND i quote MYSELF:

In my opinion and the opinion of many scholars [Christian and Muslim alike] believe its a way for god to show us his power. If YOU had Infinite power, Infinite Knowledge, Infinite Wisdom, Infinite Logic, then surely you would show it, show it off

Notice i said YOU would want to show it off and not god? God created man and jinn to worship him, isn't this sufficient enough for you to understand that he is showing us his Inifinite power?.

[Trumble]

Just the same way you disagree with proof.

You can't disagree with proof, only with whether a certain collection of evidence and argument constitutes proof or not. In this particular case, generally, the only people who believe it does are those who don't require proof anyway.

God created man and jinn to worship him, isn't this sufficient enough for you to understand that he is showing us his Inifinite power?.

The idea that a perfectly benign, omnipotent, omniscient being could have an ego large enough to require worship, let alone create something specifically to do it, is utterly absurd. Should there have been a creator God the creation cannot have been for that purpose.

[Whatsthepoint]

A perfect, self-sufficient being does not need worship/human confirmation of its infinite powers, at least by means of human logic...

[Whatsthepoint]

Just the same way you disagree with proof.

woa, didn't notice this.
No need to reply though, I agree with what Trumble said.

[Omari]

In this particular case, generally, the only people who believe it does are those who don't require proof anyway.

Not neccessarily, how do you explain people who convert to Islam from other religions? Don't they look at evidence as to why their next religion is better than their previous? But in debate situations, your right. An athiest, for example will not believe no matter how much evidence you give them, for the person supplying the evidence, its proof, for the athiest it isn't. [But then that totally depends on the person ofcourse,]

But I still stand on my point, people who convert to Islam [Fastest Growing Religion] from christianity, budhism, or any other belief, always look at proof. What else would put them into the situation of conversion?

Peace
Omari

[Omari]

[QUOTE=Whatsthepoint;900675]A perfect, self-sufficient being does not need worship/human confirmation of its infinite powers, at least by means of human logic...[/QUOTE]


Here you are, comparing HUMAN logic to God's. NOBODY knows the true reasons as to why he would WANT humans to worship him, that remains with him until the day of judgment.

[Omari]

Quran, Chapter 6, Verse 103
"No vision can grasp Him, but His grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things."

[Whatsthepoint]

Not neccessarily, how do you explain people who convert to Islam from other religions? Don't they look at evidence as to why their next religion is better than their previous? But in debate situations, your right. An athiest, for example will not believe no matter how much evidence you give them, for the person supplying the evidence, its proof, for the athiest it isn't. [But then that totally depends on the person ofcourse,]

But I still stand on my point, people who convert to Islam [Fastest Growing Religion] from christianity, budhism, or any other belief, always look at proof. What else would put them into the situation of conversion?

Peace
Omari

How do you explain people who leave Islam (no need to answer this one...). What makes people convert to Christianity?Why do people (muslims too) become atheists?
Islam is not the fastest growing religion and a lot of people convert due to so called scientific miracles, which are by no means, an actual proof but rather smartly advertised dubious verses, who happen to have some connection to modern science or in some cases, pseudoscience.

[Whatsthepoint]

Here you are, comparing HUMAN logic to God's.NOBODY knows the true reasons as to why he would WANT humans to worship him, that remains with him until the day of judgment.

As I stated previously, it's mostly religious people who use human logic to explain their gods or more commonly, why other people's gods are false.

[Omari]

How do you explain people who leave SIalm (no need to answer this one...). What makes people convert to Christianity?Why do people (muslims too) become atheists?
No need to waste my time on that, as you said.
Islam is not the fastest growing religion[1]and a lot of people convert due to so called scientific miracles,[2] which are by no means, an actual proof but rather smartly advertised dubious verses, who happen to have some connection to modern science or in some cases, pseudoscience.

[1]Islam IS the fastest growing religion on earth. CLICK.

[2] I am afraid you are just assuming that this is the main reason people are converting. For argument's sake, let's imagine that it is the main reason why people are converting. Are you calling people that do look at these scientific miracles illogical?
There is a thread about many WORLD RENOWNED professors who say with their own WORDS, that they have no doubt that the quran is a divine revaltion due to the evidence. IF the professors are agreeing, then the only reason that i can think of which is stopping you to come to the light is arrogance.

Omari

[wilberhum]

No. I call you a narrow-minded person only when you tell me your wrong conclusions about God. Yes, I do accept the world view of atheists, because I know God will not show us Himself here but only His signs and we are free to believe or disbelieve in Him.

How do you know I'm wrong? :uuh:

Because I believe differently than you? :thumbs_do

How narrow-minded can you be? :D

You claimed that you have the power to think that it will be divinely better if God do what you suggest. That is why I said you were narrow-minded.

Not at all what I implied. It is simply a logical argument of your clam that life is a test.

[Omari]

Even though this wasn't for me...

How do you know I'm wrong? :uuh:
Because I believe differently than you? :thumbs_do ,
Well, naturally. Somthing that i believe is right, and you believe differently will make me think you're wrong.
How narrow-minded can you be? :D

Arrogant is a better word.

Omari

[Whatsthepoint]

[1]Islam IS the fastest growing religion on earth. CLICK.

[2] I am afraid you are just assuming that this is the main reason people are converting. For argument's sake, let's imagine that it is the main reason why people are converting. Are you calling people that do look at these scientific miracles illogical?
There is a thread about many WORLD RENOWNED professors who say with their own WORDS, that they have no doubt that the quran is a divine revaltion due to the evidence. IF the professors are agreeing, then the only reason that i can think of which is stopping you to come to the light is arrogance.

Omari

Falun Gong is certainly faster growing. And Islam's growth is mainly a result of higher birth rates in muslim families.
Plus, is the fastest growing religion automaticcally the right one?
No, I'm not calling them illogical , I am just saying that a lot of people converting for a certain sake, does not make that sake a proof of anything.
Yes, there is such a thread, I would imagine there are plenty of them..
first, one must assume all the professors meant what they said and were not misquoted, but anyway taht's not relevant. Waht's relevant is that not all of them converted to Islam. How many of tehm converted anyway?

[Omari]

first, one must assume all the professors meant what they said and were not misquoted, but anyway taht's not relevant. Waht's relevant is that not all of them converted to Islam. How many of tehm converted anyway?

That is a very good question actualy...I'll have to find out.
But wether they converted or not shouldn't make a difference. They weren't misquoted, they have it on video. EACH professor is taped as they say what they said. The point isn't wether they converted or not, the point is wether they agreed on the evidence or not. And they did.

Omari

[Omari]

Can't I agree with science and religion in the same time? Sure I can, and it's what the professors are doing. I doubt that any professor does research one day and does bad deeds the next.
Omari

[wilberhum]

So you believe that if god communicated with us we would all be following the same religion. ...........
Yes, and he wouldn't screwed it up the first two times.
That is totally illogical.
The rest of the stuff only shows you believe differently than me. So what?
You dont know what god is but yet you want to find out what created it?
No, you just assume that because I say your argument is a fallacy that I'm saying your conclusion is wrong.
Everything that I know of has bin created, or must have bin created.
Do you assume that there is nothing outside what you know? :hiding:
God is not included in that "everything" for I dont know what god is! I only know that it must exist!
You don't know what god is but you know he exist. How illogical can one get.:uuh:

Having the burden of trying to be logical and believing that god would be logical your explanations fully fail to hit the mark.
I don't say what you believe is wrong, I just don't find it logical.

[Whatsthepoint]

That is a very good question actualy...I'll have to find out.
But wether they converted or not shouldn't make a difference. They weren't misquoted, they have it on video. EACH professor is taped as they say what they said. The point isn't wether they converted or not, the point is wether they agreed on the evidence or not. And they did.

Omari

At least one professor from the list has already denounced his staments about the divine authorship of te Quran.
Well, if the evidence is so overwhelmingly clear and convincing I would expect them to convert..
Anyway, a couple of scientists saying the Quran is divine does not prove the Quran is divine.

[krypton6]

"As a matter of fact Allah says in the quran, Chapter 51 and verse 57 :
"And I have not created the Jin and man but that they worship Me"

I dont see the point in this translation. I'm not capeable of reading nonsence, and the english translation of the Quran in most cases is nonsence.

God created the angels to worship him, why would he create us any different from them if we too are created to worship him? There's more behind this verse that you gave me.

How do you explain people who leave Islam (no need to answer this one...). What makes people convert to Christianity?Why do people (muslims too) become atheists?
Islam is not the fastest growing religion and a lot of people convert due to so called scientific miracles, which are by no means, an actual proof but rather smartly advertised dubious verses, who happen to have some connection to modern science or in some cases, pseudoscience.

Those woh leave Islam are very few compared to those leaving the other religions. Those leaving Islam have got a wrong image of islam, they've created a islam based on their own experience in the culture that they grew up in. They've had bad experiences through out their lifes, and they blame what has happend to them on Islam without having any evidence proving what has happend to them being caused by Islam.

Islam is the worlds fastest growing religion, and the sciencetific verses of the Quran clearly mentions the science that we know today, you just have to read it with a open mind.

Some muslims become atheists due to the theory of evolution. It is mostly young people who have bin told the good side of evolution, the anti-religion side, without being told about the other side of evolution, the one with tons of failures and unknown factors. It is young people ho have never known to intelligent design and such. Bus as they go deeper into science, they return to Islam.

[Whatsthepoint]

Can't I agree with science and religion in the same time? Sure I can, and it's what the professors are doing. I doubt that any professor does research one day and does bad deeds the next.
Omari

nobody's saying you can't be religious and a scientist at the same time. Since the majority of teh world's popualtion is religious I would guess the majority of scientist are religious as well.
Why is it possible to be both religious and a scientists at the same time?
1. Becaue religion comes from god and is therefore in agreement with science
2. because religion is a very adaptable thing, it can be interpreted in many ways in order to comply with science.

my choice is no 2

[chacha_jalebi]

erm from the creation to science!!

thats like i want to go pakistan but ended up in antartica

OFF TOPIC :mmokay: and the thread has served its purpose and its just off topic now

:threadclo