Refutation: "From among their brethren..." (A Jewish brethren only?)

[- Qatada -]

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

Could brethren refer to Ishmaelites?

Brown's Hebrew lexicon states that the hebrew word can refer to an indefinite relative or kin in a wider way, like cousins.

In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/9344-sign-muhammad-deuteronomy.html#post8377

The word brethren in the verse which we quote of the prophecy is used in other verses of deuteronomy, with the word 'brethren' being used there aswell. Yet these people who are called brethren in the other verses are simply their cousins, like the arabs are also.


The arabs are also close because Prophet Abraham [Ibrahim] had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac [Isma'eel and Isshaaq - in arabic], both these sons were half brothers because their mothers were different. But it still shows their closeness because their father is the same.


Therefore it wouldn't be surprising if this Prophecy really was in regard to Prophet Muhammad. Since the arabs are also brothers of the Jewish race like the Edomites are (because their main father - Abraham - is the same man.) If it wasn't for Abraham, the Jewish or the Arab race could not be born.




Here's a huge list of the similarities between Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them) again;

i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
(4:157-158)

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

Whereas the only similarity between Jesus and Moses really is that they are male prophets and from the Children of Israel.


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...criptures.html

[Talha777]

There is no question Deuteronomy 18:18 refers to Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa salaam) and not Jesus (alaihi salaam):

Holy Quran makes comparison between Muhammad and Moses (alaihimus salaam) as well:

We have sent to you, (O men!) an apostle, to be a witness concerning you, even as We sent an apostle to pharaoh.
(Al Muzzammil 73:15)

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


This is carried on from that top post...


I did a bit of research and i think the Edomites are the descendants of Isaac [Isshaaq], therefore the son of Isaac - Jacob (Ya'qub) [also known as Israel - children of Israel are the 12 tribes of the Jewish race] is the brother of Esau - the father of the Edomites.


Esau + Jacob [brothers] - descendants of Isaac. Known as the brothers of the Jews in the Old Testament (although there descendants are really cousins of each other.)

The lineage of Prophets which are well known are from the descendants of Jacob - children of Israel [bani Israel.]




If jews claim that Prophethood only came to the Children of Israel [Jacob/Ya'qub] - they are still saying that they have brothers (who are really their cousins.) Therefore, according to their own scripture - their brethren are their cousins. According to the Old Testament then, the Edomites could be Prophets, yet there is no mention of them having Prophethood. However, according to the Old Testament - it would be possible that Prophethood could be from the descendants of Esau.



Is there any mention of Ishmael [Isma'il] being a brethren?

King James Version - Genesis 16:11
And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

Genesis 16:12
And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Genesis 25:17
And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.


Genesis 25:18
And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur, that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Assyria: and he died in the presence of all his brethren.

It's really obvious from these texts that Ishmael [Isma'il] is referred to as a brother, Esau is also a brother - since the Arabs and Jews are cousins, they can also be referred to as brothers by looking at the earlier texts [when the Edomites are referred to as brothers to the Jews - Arabs can also be brethren of the Jews, although they are cousins, no matter what the distance this is between them, whether they are far cousins or close cousins. - they can still be referred to as brethren.]


We can conclude that Edomites can fit into that Prophecy of being from their brethren and therefore have Prophethood from among them, the descendants of Jacob can fit into that Prophecy [the jews], and the Arabs can also fit into that Prophecy.





From there, we can prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from 'among their brethren.' and out of all cases - he is the most similar to Moses.

In simple terms: The Jews had cousins (the Edomites), they were called brothers of the Jews in the Old Testament [which jews accept.]

Similarly, the arabs are (far) cousins of the Jews, they can then also be called as 'brothers' because the Edomites were called 'brothers' although they too are cousins.

Due to the arabs and Edomites being cousins of the Jews - they both can be referred to as brothers of the Jews according to the Old Testament.


So when it is mentioned as 'among their brethren', the arabs can also be referred to as people who could receive the message.

Muhammad (peace be upon him) is 'arab, a direct descendant of Prophet Ibrahim [Abraham], - he is the final Prophet of God, and he fulfills that Prophecy since he is the most similar to Moses.

And Allah knows best.

[Grace Seeker]

We can conclude that Edomites can fit into that Prophecy of being from their brethren and therefore have Prophethood from among them, the descendants of Jacob can fit into that Prophecy [the jews], and the Arabs can also fit into that Prophecy.





From there, we can prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from 'among their brethren.' and out of all cases - he is the most similar to Moses.





And Allah knows best.

Wonderful redactive reading of the text. And seriously, there is nothing wrong with a redactive reading, after all that is what Matthew does with for his prophecies about Jesus coming out of Egypt and being a known as a Nazarine, etc.

However, I would also point out that though by the process you used it is true that Muhammad would be a cousin of Moses and that they could thus be considered "brethern" in the larger sense. That it doesn't mean the verse is actually referring to Moses (or to Jesus either). The idea that a prophet will be raised up "like unto thee" does not mean that the person in question will be the "most similar to Moses". It could be as simple as Joshua being the one who replaced Moses as the leader of the nation of Israel in their entry into Canaan. That would fulfill the prophecy, without having to have lots of other similarities.

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[- Qatada -]

Did Canaan say the words of God though? :) Was his speech, and what was revealed to him preserved for all of mankind until the final hour?

[Grace Seeker]

Did Canaan say the words of God though? :) Was his speech, and what was revealed to him preserved for all of mankind until the final hour?

What are you talking about? The Canaan I mentioned is the "promised land" toward which Moses led the Israelits and into which Joshua finally them after Moses' death. The person Canaan was centuries before Moses.

And as I said, the person who fulfilled the prophecy did not have to be identical to Moses in every respect, just like him in some ways. Was he a prophet at all? Yes. He was not a law giver, but there are more ways to be a prophet than by being a law-giver. The Hebrew word nabi which is translated "prophet" literally means "one who announces". Certainly Joshua did this announcing (and leading) God's plan for capturing Jericho, taking the cities of Canaan, and his final declaration at Shechem. Consider some of the other great prophets of Israel: Elijah, Elisha, Nathan, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, among many others. I imagine anyone of them could be seen as a fulfillment of that particular prophecy. And really, when one considers the need that was being addressed at the time, perhaps it really refers to each on them in their own turn. That, to me, seems to make the best sense out of the passage, especially when read in its larger context.

[- Qatada -]

I think that the most clearest explanation has to be that its a Prophet (singular) who is the most similar to Moses in the most respects. So that's why i pick Muhammad (peace be upon him), lol. :)

[Grace Seeker]

I think that the most clearest explanation has to be that its a Prophet (singular) who is the most similar to Moses in the most respects. So that's why i pick Muhammad (peace be upon him), lol. :)

Or.... and believe it or not this is a serious question..... is it that having already picked Muhammad in your own life, that you more easily read him as the answer into things where he doesn't really fit?

See, I really had this experience once with some Jr. High kids in my confirmation class at church. They were trying so desperately to give the the answers they "thought" I wanted to hear, that they quit thinking altogether. Pretty soon they were giving me Jesus as the answer to every question, no matter how poorly such an answer fit. Finally, I asked them what was brownish red, climbed trees, had a long bushy tail, and stored nuts for the winter. They looked at me, and with perplexed by serious faces said that it sounded like a squirrel, but since it was confirnation class, knew the answer had to be Jesus.

[Imam]

I imagine anyone of them could be seen as a fulfillment of that particular prophecy. .

your explanation is flawed ,Seeker....

if the text merely says>

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet , and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18

then anyone from the list you mentioned,could fulfill it....

but the text is more specific....

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18


Elijah, Elisha, Nathan, Samuel, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, among many others. , were prophets but
none of them was like moses ...in what sense"?

none of them came with a new and comprehensive set of laws for their people

none of them lead his people in a secret mass exodus from their hometown to a safer place in an attempt to flee the persecution of their enemies.

"And there arose NOT a prophet since in Israel LIKE unto Moses."
Deuteronomy 34:10


if the text merely says..

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet , and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18

then we may agree that any other prophet could fulfill it.....

the prophecy fits the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him,exactly as my favorite gloves fit my fingers!!......

[Grace Seeker]

I already addressed all of those things in my initial post. I believe it is your objection that is flawed. It is not necessary to be identical to Moses in all the respects you mention order to be like Moses. If it required the former, then no one would ever qualify. Certainly Muhammad does not. He led no group of people out of Egypt. He did not lead the Israelites at all. As the context of the "from among their bretheren" has to do with leading a specific group, the group that Moses is right then leading, it therefore follows that whoever the prophet is is one that will lead the Israelites, not just any leader who leads some people or who claims to receive words from God.

[- Qatada -]

I already addressed all of those things in my initial post. I believe it is your objection that is flawed. It is not necessary to be identical to Moses in all the respects you mention order to be like Moses. If it required the former, then no one would ever qualify.

Certainly Muhammad does not. He led no group of people out of Egypt.

Well, did any of the other Prophets directly take their people out of Egypt? No, it was Moses himself.

If we are to do a comparative analogy, we come to realise that Muhammad (peace be upon him) took his people out of Makkah, where the believers were being tortured. Similar to what was happening in Egypt at the time of Pharoah.

The move, or hijrah wasn't just something physical - in both cases it was a sign of leaving the lands of disbelief for a more positive future in regards to them practising their religion freely without harm.

He did not lead the Israelites at all.

Yes, rather he - Moses - lead his people out of idolatry into the light of monotheism, agreed? This is exactly what Muhammad (peace be upon him) did.

As the context of the "from among their bretheren" has to do with leading a specific group, the group that Moses is right then leading

From among their brethren can refer to arabs, as i stated earlier at the beginning of this post. Yet nowhere in the verse does it state that this Prophet has to come to the Jews to command them.

, it therefore follows that whoever the prophet is is one that will lead the Israelites, not just any leader who leads some people or who claims to receive words from God.

Well then, i wonder who was more successful. A Prophet who is sent to the Jews who wasn't successful in getting his people to worship God Alone (since they continuously returned back to polytheism) - infact i don't even understand your concept of success, compared to a Prophet who clearly brought his people from the darkness of polytheism into the light of a purely monotheistic faith.





Looking at what i've mentioned earlier, it's so obvious that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is most similar to Moses. You're idea of it 'not (being) necessary to be identical to Moses in all the respects you mention order to be like Moses. If it required the former, then no one would ever qualify.'

Is a totally flawed argument, since the verse clearly states that this Prophet will be 'like unto thee' - just because you want to interpret something so clear into your own way, then that's not really a problem on our side. For me as a muslim, i found the answer and later on found the equation to it. And i'm glad that i did, and the praise is for Allah.





Regards.

[Grace Seeker]

Well, did any of the other Prophets directly take their people out of Egypt? No, it was Moses himself.

If we are to do a comparative analogy, we come to realise that Muhammad (peace be upon him) took his people out of Makkah, where the believers were being tortured. Similar to what was happening in Egypt at the time of Pharoah.

The move, or hijrah wasn't just something physical - in both cases it was a sign of leaving the lands of disbelief for a more positive future in regards to them practising their religion freely without harm.




Yes, rather he - Moses - lead his people out of idolatry into the light of monotheism, agreed? This is exactly what Muhammad (peace be upon him) did.





From among their brethren can refer to arabs, as i stated earlier at the beginning of this post. Yet nowhere in the verse does it state that this Prophet has to come to the Jews to command them.






Well then, i wonder who was more successful. A Prophet who is sent to the Jews who wasn't successful in getting his people to worship God Alone (since they continuously returned back to polytheism) - infact i don't even understand your concept of success, compared to a Prophet who clearly brought his people from the darkness of polytheism into the light of a purely monotheistic faith.





Looking at what i've mentioned earlier, it's so obvious that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is most similar to Moses. You're idea of it 'not (being) necessary to be identical to Moses in all the respects you mention order to be like Moses. If it required the former, then no one would ever qualify.'

Is a totally flawed argument, since the verse clearly states that this Prophet will be 'like unto thee' - just because you want to interpret something so clear into your own way, then that's not really a problem on our side. For me as a muslim, i found the answer and later on found the equation to it. And i'm glad that i did, and the praise is for Allah.


Regards.

Yes, regards, but I really do think that you have the reading into reversed.

Moses didn't, as you suggest, lead his people out of paganism. God had already called Abraham out of that centuries before.

Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, did as much to deliver God's word and lead the Jews out of the Babylonian Exile and back to Israel as did Moses and Joshua in leading them out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. Elijah was a strong voice in having the people return to God from paganism, standing up to the King and Queen in the face of adverse persecution. There are just so many who were like Moses in this regard that the attribution of it to Muhammad is too big of a stretch to make.


I agreed with you that one could see Arabs and Jews as brethern. But unless Muhammad also came to lead the Jews, and not just Arabs, then you miss the pronoun "for you" (i.e. for the nation of Israel) part that is back in verse 15. In fact, in the context of the larger passage, it is about entry into the new land that Israel is moving into. Joshua best fits the role set forth as one to replace Moses.

Deuteronomy 18
14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."

Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

[- Qatada -]

Yes, regards, but I really do think that you have the reading into reversed.

Moses didn't, as you suggest, lead his people out of paganism. God had already called Abraham out of that centuries before.

The Jews would return to many aspects of paganism, remember the golden calf? Their religion was influenced a great deal by their stay in Egypt during the time of Prophet Joseph, up till the time of Moses. Since the Egyptians were pagans, worshiping the Pharaohs etc. it isn't surprising that the Jews would follow in that, and this is proven through what they did by worshiping the golden calf.

Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, did as much to deliver God's word and lead the Jews out of the Babylonian Exile and back to Israel as did Moses and Joshua in leading them out of Egypt and to the Promised Land. Elijah was a strong voice in having the people return to God from paganism, standing up to the King and Queen in the face of adverse persecution. There are just so many who were like Moses in this regard that the attribution of it to Muhammad is too big of a stretch to make.

Did these Prophets bring a totally new law to their people? No they never, Muhammad (peace be upon him) did. Therefore, according to that claim - Muhammad (peace be upon him) is one step ahead - in similarity to Moses - of them Prophets which you mention.

I agreed with you that one could see Arabs and Jews as brethern. But unless Muhammad also came to lead the Jews, and not just Arabs, then you miss the pronoun "for you" (i.e. for the nation of Israel)

part that is back in verse 15. In fact, in the context of the larger passage, it is about entry into the new land that Israel is moving into.

We as Muslims do not doubt that Muhammad (peace be upon him) came for the 'arabs, we also do not doubt that he came for the Jews.

Say (O Muhammad): O mankind! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah to you all - (the messenger of) Him unto Whom belongeth the Sovereignty of the heavens and the earth.
There is no Allah save Him. He quickeneth and He giveth death. So believe in Allah and His messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write, who believeth in Allah and in His Words, and follow him that haply ye may be led aright.

[Qur'an 7: 158]

It is clear in that verse that Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a Messenger to all of mankind, with no exception - so it includes Jews. Therefore it doesn't really make a difference whether Allah sends a Prophet, no matter what race he belongs to - so long as he conveys the message clearly.

Joshua best fits the role set forth as one to replace Moses.

Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

Let's take a look then to see if it really can be Joshua;

Devarim 33:1-2 And this is the blessing with which Moses, the man of God, blessed the children of Israel [just] before his death.

He said: "The Lord came from Sinai and shone forth from Seir to them; He appeared from Mount Paran and came with some of the holy myriads; from His right hand was a fiery Law for them


This verse speaks of God (i.e. God's revelation) coming from Sinai, rising from Seir (probably the village of Sa'ir near Jerusalem) and shining forth from Paran.


Where is paran?

Genesis 21:21 21. And he dwelt in the desert of Paran, and his mother took for him a wife from the land of Egypt.
This is talking about Prophet Ishmael whom we know was sent to Mecca with his mother. Therefore, the wilderness of Pran is Arabia, and specifically Mecca.


Isaiah 42:1-13 speaks of the beloved of God. His elect and messenger who will bring down a law to be awaited in the isles and who "shall not fail nor be discouraged till he have set judgement on earth." Verse 11, connects that awaited one with the descendants of Ke'dar. Who is Ke'dar?

According to Genesis 25:13, Ke'dar was the second son of Ishmael, the ancestor of prophet Muhammad.

So if we analyze this, it makes it more clear that Joshua could not be the expected Prophet.

We can examine Joshua and see if he fits the Prophecy.


Devarim shows us that this Prophet whom God will bring will speak God's words and give commands in God's name. We have no evidence that Yusha brought any new revelation or laws. He only followed the laws of Prophet Moses.

Judaism holds Yusha several degrees below Prophet Moses in significance and status. Prophet Muhammad is the only one who made such a revolution like Prophet Moses.


And finally, Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesied in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

http://www.islamicboard.com/8654-post14.html

[- Qatada -]

Another point which i just want to add to confirm that Joshua couldn't be that Prophet is as follows;

There is another point which is being briefly discussed here. Some Jews assert that the prophecy relates to and is fulfilled in the person of Joshua. But the wording of the prophecy and the context do not permit it. Joshua was the contemporary of and junior to Moses. Moses himself had nominated him as his successor under the instruction of the Lord. He was a disciple, attendant, and successor of Moses and not an independent prophet himself. No "Law" was revealed unto him. So he was in no way 'like unto Moses'. The words of the prophecy, 'The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy Brethren, like unto me;' clearly denote that they relate to some future event, whereas Joshua physically existed there when this prophecy was uttered. The book of Malachi is the last of the Minor Prophets and of the OT. It records the prophecy uttered by the Lord in the following words [which shows that the messenger of the covenant was yet to come by his time, and, as such, Joshua could not have been this "a prophet"

http://www.islamicboard.com/12176-post23.html

[Grace Seeker]

You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

[- Qatada -]

You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

It can refer to the 'arabs, aswell as to the rest of humanity - more specifically to the arabs in that sense.

In the early Prophethood of the Muhammad (peace be upon him) - he warned the closest of kin, then to the people of his town - Makkah, then to the surrounding towns i.e. Al-Taa'if etc. Then he made Hijrah to Madinah, and called the people to Islam from there, including the Jews & Christians. Then to the rulers, of Abysinnia [ethiopia], the rulers of Byzantine [Romans], and Persia [Sassanids], the governor of the Egyptian Coptics etc.


He died before Islam spread to the other nations at a mass scale, therefore it's clear that throughout his life - he never left the Arabian Peninsula (except a little while before his Prophethood for his business trips for his wife Khadija.) So, it's clear that he (peace be upon him) did come for all of humanity, however, his companions spread the message to the rest of humanity.

So he commanded his companions all that was conveyed to him by Allah. The words which he said were the Qur'an - the speech of Allah, as that Prophecy states.

[Grace Seeker]

You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

It can refer to the 'arabs, aswell as to the rest of humanity - more specifically to the arabs in that sense.

No, I don't think the term "them" from Deuteronomy 18:18 can refer to anyone other than the very group accompanying Moses. While the term "brothers" might refer to a large number of possibilities, including Arabs, the term "them" cannot in this instance.

All that you say about Muhammad may be true, but it is also irrelevant to the interpretation of that term. Let's read it in context:

Deuteronomy 18
9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

14 The nations you will dispossess listen to those who practice sorcery or divination. But as for you, the LORD your God has not permitted you to do so. 15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative. (See Exodus 20:18-21 and Deuteronomy 5:5 & 27-28, for more of the story of Moses and the people at Mount Sinai, for I believe Horeb and Sinai are one and the same place.)

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Muhammad lived more than a thousand years later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Muhammad in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses. It is not required to be a law-giver, to remind people that Yahweh was their God, or to lead an exodus to be like Moses, though others did indeed do some of those things. It is enough to be a prophet to be like Moses.

Though if you are looking to Moses as a typology for that future prophet, then I present to you Peter's interpretation of that passage:

Acts 3
17"Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance [killing Jesus], as did your leaders. 18But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. 19Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets. 22For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'

24"Indeed, all the prophets from Samuel on, as many as have spoken, have foretold these days. 25And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.' 26When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

[Imam]

Peter's interpretation of that passage:
Acts 3
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

well, why you claim that it is Peter's interpretation of that passage? aren-t you convinced that what his(the inspired) claims to be true,and Jesus is the one who fulfilled it?

here you your position is weakened more and more

if according to you the original prophecy could be applied to a list of prophets, how on earth the writer of acts argues that it is specific to Jesus?


To be continued

[Imam]

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative.

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Muhammad lived more than a thousand years later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Muhammad in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses. It is not required to be a law-giver, to remind people that Yahweh was their God, or to lead an exodus to be like Moses, though others did indeed do some of those things. It is enough to be a prophet to be like Moses.
:

Ladies&Gentlemen

pay attention please

Seeker is going to refute the inspired writer of Acts,in a unique approach

Acts 3
even Jesus. 21He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
22For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.



Seeker s Refutation :

In verse 18 God says, "I will raise up for them...." Them who? One must look back to see the antecedent to the pronoun. The antecedent is the pronoun "they" from the previous sentence. Who is this "they"? Well one hint is that "they" had previously said something which God saw as good. And continuing to look back for the antecedent to "they", we find that "they" refers to the assembly gathered at Horeb. It refers to the people who were afraid to face God themselves and were glad for Moses to do so as their representative.

Verses 14 and 15 both make use of the pronoun "you": "The nations you will dispossess..." and "God will raise up for you a prophet..." You who? Well, it is the same "you" as in verse 16: "this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly...." So, this whole passage is speaking of one group of people, it speaks of those who had assembled with Moses at Horeb when he went up the mountain to speak with God in their stead. It refers to those who are traveling with Moses and will eventually dispossess other nations in the land God "is giving [them]" (verse 9). Hence any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Jesus lived centures later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him. It matters not if there were to be another like Moses who would eventually lead a group of Jews out of slavery in Egypt to possess the promised land a second time, and be given a set of stone tablets on which the Law had been written by the hand of God, unless he was leading that particular group of Jews who were with Moses, he still would not fit the description of a prophet raised up for "you" who are present at the time of this prophecy.

If it need not be a prophet to that particular group of people, then it could be any of a dozen other possible alternatives. You may wish to include Jesus in that list, but there would be no way to exclude any other prophet for all prophets have the function of speaking forth the words that God puts in their mouths. And in that way all prophets are like Moses.

[- Qatada -]

Grace Seeker, this is quite clear - a quote from my earlier post;

There is another point which is being briefly discussed here. Some Jews assert that the prophecy relates to and is fulfilled in the person of Joshua. But the wording of the prophecy and the context do not permit it. Joshua was the contemporary of and junior to Moses. Moses himself had nominated him as his successor under the instruction of the Lord. He was a disciple, attendant, and successor of Moses and not an independent prophet himself. No "Law" was revealed unto him. So he was in no way 'like unto Moses'. The words of the prophecy, 'The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a prophet from the midst of thee, of thy Brethren, like unto me;' clearly denote that they relate to some future event, whereas Joshua physically existed there when this prophecy was uttered. The book of Malachi is the last of the Minor Prophets and of the OT. It records the prophecy uttered by the Lord in the following words [which shows that the messenger of the covenant was yet to come by his time, and, as such, Joshua could not have been this "a prophet"

http://www.islamicboard.com/12176-post23.html (The Sign of Muhammad in Deuteronomy)

And to continue:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come[29] to his temple[30], even the messenger of the covenant [stress added] whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.[31]


As to the date of Malachi, 'McKenzie' observes:

The book is dated by the critics after the rebuilding of the temple in 516 BC, during the Persian period and before the reforms of Nehemiah and Ezta, i.e., before 432 BC.[32]

The recording of the prophecy regarding 'the messenger of the covenant' in it shows that till 432 BC the Israelites were still waiting for him and he was yet to come.


Then there is the epilogue of the book of Deuteronomy which reads,

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face.[33]



It is probable that this epilogue might have been written by Ezra eight to nine hundred years after Moses. So the prophecy remained unfulfilled till 8-9 centuries after Moses. It is also probable that it might have been written by some other redactor of the book when the Torah and some other books of the Bible were first compiled in written form about five hundred years after Moses. It means that the prophecy remained unfulfilled for not less than 500 years after Moses. It does not mean that it was fulfilled after it. Nobody ever claimed to be 'the messenger of the covenant' or fulfilled its pre-requisites at any time after Moses. Almost every scholar of the Bible understands that it stood unfulfilled even after the time of Jesus Christ. The Bible Knowledge Commentary observes,

During the first century A.D. the official leaders of Judaism were still looking for the fulfillment of Moses' prediction (cf. John I: 21).[34]

That it remained unfulfilled during the time of Jesus Christ and the Jews were still waiting for the coming of this prophet, can be ascertained from the following passage of the Gospel According To John:

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet [stress added]? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (...). And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?[35]

It has become clear from the study undertaken above that this 'Prophet like unto Moses' had not been raised up till the time of Jesus Christ.


[29] The actual Hebrew word used for this 'come' is avb (a?v?b), which can be pronounced as bow'. According to Strong's 'A Concise Dictionary of the words in the Hebrew Bible', p. 19, entry No. 935 it means: "to go or come (in a wide variety of applications):-abide, befall, beseige, go (down, in, to war), [in-]vade, lead." It shows that 'the messenger of the covenant (it may be noted here that Jesus never claimed for himself to be the messenger of the covenant)' 'shall suddenly go down to war, besiege, and invade his temple'. It is a true and exact picture of the Prophet of Islam's conquest of Makkah'. No other prophet ever 'came so triumphantly and suddenly to his temple' as did the prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh) come.

[30] How clearly and unequivocally came this prophecy true in the person of the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad (pbuh)! He secretly came upon his Temple, Ka'bah, in the city of Makkah, at the time of its conquest, so that it be conquered without any battle and bloodshed. The Makkans came to know about the arrival of Muhammad at the head of an army of ten thousand holy ones only when he had reached the gate of the city and the city was taken without any bloodshed. This is what Malachi had said, 'shall suddenly come to his temple.'

[31] KJV, Malachi III: 1, p. 745.
[32] J.L. McKenzie, DB, Geoffrey Chapman, London, 1984, p. 537.
[33] KJV, Deu. XXXIV: 10 p. 195.
[34] The B Knowledge C, Ed John F. Walvoord & R. B. Zuck, SP Publications, Inc., Weaton, Illinois, 3rd Ed, 1986, p. 297.
[35] KJV, John, I: 19-25, p. 82.


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...html#post12176

It's so obvious that John the Baptist (Prophet Yahya) came later, much later than Prophet Moses. Yet the Jews were still questioning him on whether he was the Messiah [Christ - Jesus son of Mary], or 'that Prophet' - 'that Prophet' who matches Moses the most is undoubtedly Muhammad (peace be upon him.)



Please don't praise me for the research, the praise is for Allah. :) I got it from bro Ansar by the way :rolleyes:

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


This is also a good article;


Was Isaac or Ishmael to be sacrificed ?
http://jews-for-allah.org/the-Jewish-Bible/isaac.html

[Imam]

during the time of Jesus Christ and the Jews were still waiting for the coming of this prophet[/B], can be ascertained from the following passage of the Gospel According To John:

[INDENT][B][I]And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet [stress added]? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. (...). And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet?[35]

actually that passage exposes the deception of the NT writers ,as they tried to convince the reader of their stuff that such 3 distinct prophecies came true the time of Jesus!!!!

How?

first let us take a look at the text of the Old Testament to see upon what basis the Jews asked Joh the baptist such 3 questions:

"And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be:

a) not that Christ,
the promised in 1 Chron. 22:8-10,Isaiah 11:2,Ezekiel 40
Isaiah 2:4
etc.......

b) nor Elias,
Malachi 4:5
"Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.


c) neither that prophet?"

"I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Deuteronomy 18:18


the zealous New Testament writers who often let their imaginations do their walking through OT pages,as their hearts precedes their heads, their desire precedes their discretion, their wish precedes their wisdom,tried to convince the reader that during the time of Jesus the 3 distinct prophecies got fulfilled by Jesus and John the baptist !!!!!!

claiming that the prophecy of Elijah the prophet's return to earth got fulfilled by John the baptist who came with the power and spirit of Elijah!!!!!!

that is for sure a living example of how far the NT writers have embarked with their readers upon a journey into the realm of myth and fantasy in which the distortion, pervertion, misapplication of the Old Testament verses exists in
a sizable number.

then passing by Deuteronomy 18:18 ,claiming that Jesus fulfilled it,though not only Jesus lacks the basic thing(Law giver)that makes him (like unto Moses) but they ignore the Old Testament concept regarding the Promised king Messiah who will be neither a prophet nor incarnated god.......

and that is one of the most egregious violations of intellectual integrity by the founders of Christianity,but no wonder as they did it for the purposes of indoctrination......
and "The Ends Justify The Means"

[Grace Seeker]

well, why you claim that it is Peter's interpretation of that passage? aren-t you convinced that what his(the inspired) claims to be true,and Jesus is the one who fulfilled it?

here you your position is weakened more and more

if according to you the original prophecy could be applied to a list of prophets, how on earth the writer of acts argues that it is specific to Jesus?


To be continued

What I said initially was based only on reading the particular single verse that had been presented. After reading the verse in context, I would like to remove the list, and limit it as I did in my last post to one who was present with the people at that time. Now, Peter chooses to reinterpret the passage using Moses as a typology of Christ. And if you wish to reinterpet it a second time use Moses as a typology for Muhammad, I guess you can. I'm not going to argue with Peter. And I don't see any point in arguing with you either. An interesting thing about Hebraic prophecies, they were sometimes fulfilled more than once having a repetitious cycle which eventually culminates in a final fulfillment. If we accept Peter's interpretation, that final fulfillment would be in Jesus. Of course, Islam is never content to leave anything with Jesus and must continue to Muhammad. That's your religion, your entitled, but I don't believe that your interpretations are correct.

[YusufNoor]

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

I’m sorry for my absence of late but I was terribly ill. I’m feeling a little better so I wanted to address some of your “concerns.”

First of all, I was glad to see this:

Originally posted by Grace Seeker, I really had this experience once with some Jr. High kids in my confirmation class at church. They were trying so desperately to give the the answers they "thought" I wanted to hear, that they quit thinking altogether. Pretty soon they were giving me Jesus as the answer to every question, no matter how poorly such an answer fit. Finally, I asked them what was brownish red, climbed trees, had a long bushy tail, and stored nuts for the winter. They looked at me, and with perplexed by serious faces said that it sounded like a squirrel, but since it was confirnation class, knew the answer had to be Jesus.

A VERY SIMILAR thing happens when Christians look at the Torah and Tanakh! Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING is taken as referring to Jesus, ad naseum and others will kick and scream and hold their breath insisting that there is absolutely nothing in either which prophesies Islam. It’s hard to believe, I know, but still they are like that, especially if you bring up Melchizedek!

My intent is to address this:

Originally posted by Grace Seeker You never addressed my finally comment: Look again at the verse you quoted: "I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him." Who is referred to by the term "them"?

This is a valid question, can we use the Torah, as it is today to attempt to discover the identity of “them?” I’m pretty sure that we can, so lets’ take a look at the event which brings us to Mt.’s Sinai & Horeb. It’s called EXODUS! So, let’s look there to see if we can find any clues.

Now, I’m sure that we can all agree that the descendants of Jacob are at times referred to as the “children of Israel”, AND we know that Ishmael is Jacob’s Uncle, so in that manor, they ARE brethren. But let’s take a look at Exodus to see what we can learn there. What we find is a term from Genesis itself used to differentiate the “children of Israel” from the Egyptians, and that is the term Hebrews. The term itself is from an ancestor of Abraham, a descendant of Shem, Eber. Now, the descendants of Shem are referred to as Semites and those of Eber as Hebrews. In the 11th Chapter of Genesis we read in part” …and Shem begot Arpachshad…and Arpachshad begot Shelah…and Shelah begot Eber. So we see here that Eber is Shem’s great grandson. Reading further we read: and Eber begot Peleg…and Peleg begot Reu…and Reu begot Serug...and Serug begot Nahor…and Nahor begot Terah…and Terah begot Abram. That makes Eber Abraham’s great-great-great-great grandfather! (And Shem his great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather! Phew!)


In chapter 9 verse 26 of Genesis we read in part: Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem; and let Canaan be his servant. One wonders why the Lord is called the God of Shem. We find an “undercover” clue in Genesis chapter 14, to wit:
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley).
18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem [d] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,
"Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
Creator [e] of heaven and earth.
20 And blessed be [f] God Most High,
who delivered your enemies into your hand."
Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.


So who is this mysterious Melchizedek, priest of God Most High? First of every Christian and his brother will of course say “its Jesus, Jesus!” Why, because that’s what Christians do with the Tanakh, they try to turn everything into Jesus!

But what do the Jewish say about our mysterious high priest? Lets look at the notes for verse 18 in the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd:


…The sages unanimously identify Malchizedek, King of Salem as Shem, son of Noah (Rashi). He was so called because he was king [melech] over a place known for its righteousness [zedek] (Ibn Ezra); a place which would not tolerate any form of injustice or abomination for an extended time period (Radak); or, according to Ramban, because he ruled over the future site of the Temple, home of the zedek, the righteous Shechinah, which was known even then to be sacred. Thus, Malchizedek might designate him as “king of the place of zedek, righteousness.”

Just below wee see a reference to Shem on 10:21, among others, which reads in part: Why should the Torah associate him (Shem) with Eber more than any other of his offspring? …Shem was the primogenitor of all the descendants of Eber from who came forth the Hebrews (Radak, Ibn Ezra)…Although Shem had may descendants, Eber’s children were the most favored of his offspring because they were righteous like him (Arbarbanel). Sforno comments that those who believed in god were called I(b)rim, after Eber their teacher. Shem, because he was also their teacher, is called the “father” of Eber’s “children” meaning his “students”, because students are called the children of their teacher. [As a side note, it is also Jewish a belief that Jacob spent 14 years engaged at the Academy of Eber in Jerusalem]
Back to the notes on 14:18: Ramban explains that Shem was the most honored among the generation of Canaanites, and he therefore became the priest of God the most high in Jerusalem…


Back to the topic at hand, is the term Hebrew used in the Exodus story? Why yes it is, in fact is used at least 9 times:
Chapter 1:15 The king of Egypt said to the Hebrew midwives, whose names were Shiphrah and Puah, 16 "When you help the Hebrew women in childbirth and observe them on the delivery stool, if it is a boy, kill him; but if it is a girl, let her live." 17 The midwives, however, feared God and did not do what the king of Egypt had told them to do; they let the boys live. 18 Then the king of Egypt summoned the midwives and asked them, "Why have you done this? Why have you let the boys live?"

19 The midwives answered Pharaoh, "Hebrew women are not like Egyptian women; they are vigorous and give birth before the midwives arrive."

2:6 She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. "This is one of the Hebrew babies," she said.
7 Then his sister asked Pharaoh's daughter, "Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?"

11 One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. 12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. 13 The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, "Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?"

21:2 "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.

Now, even more phenomenally, the God of the Patriarchs transforms into none other than the God of the Hebrews! We see this at least 6 times:
Exodus 3:18
"The elders of Israel will listen to you. Then you and the elders are to go to the king of Egypt and say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has met with us. Let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God.
Exodus 5:3
Then they said, "The God of the Hebrews has met with us. Now let us take a three-day journey into the desert to offer sacrifices to the LORD our God, or he may strike us with plagues or with the sword."
Exodus 7:16
Then say to him, 'The LORD, the God of the Hebrews, has sent me to say to you: Let my people go, so that they may worship me in the desert. But until now you have not listened
Exodus 9:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: "Let my people go, so that they may worship me."
Exodus 9:13
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, 'This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me
Exodus 10:3
So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and said to him, "This is what the LORD, the God of the Hebrews, says: 'How long will you refuse to humble yourself before me? Let my people go, so that they may worship me.


So the “God of the Exodus” in fact becomes the God of the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber! Now if we apply this to Deuteronomy18: 18, we get:

17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among “the righteous descendants of Shem through his “son” Eber”; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him.
We now have a translation that is correct as well as accurate that CAN apply to a descendant of Eber in the form of ANY descendant of Ishmael!

Its fascinating isn't it? Now I can already hear the Christians questioning whether or not Ishmael and his descendants have any claim to the title righteous! Well, that’s part 2, Insha’ Allah!

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

OK. I await part 2 without further comment other than to say thanks for the elucidation on Melchizedek. I've never heard anyone ever say that this Melchizedek was Jesus as you suggest we Christians might conclude. Rather, I just thought that this was is name and identity and thought little more about him personally as he comes and goes from the narrative with little other comment. We are told in Hebrews that Jesus "has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek," but this is far different from saying that he IS Melchizedek. And even that assertion comes from quoting and applying Psalm 110, not Genesis. I think who Melchizedek is probably has little relevance to the question I have asked about who the "them" is referring to, but I will withhold judgment till you have made your case in full.

[Imam]

any person who comes so significantly later that said person has no contact with this group, cannot be the prophet referred to in verse 15. And as the prophet referred to in verse 15 is obviously the same prophet referred to in verse 18, and as Muhammad lived more than a thousand years later and never had contact with any of those who were with Moses, it cannot be him.

versus

An interesting thing about Hebraic prophecies, they were sometimes fulfilled more than once having a repetitious cycle which eventually culminates in a final fulfillment.

Not only you contradict yourself,but also
the notion of a "multiple fulfillments " which you crafted is not only unbiblical but absured as well.....
If you could prove it to be Biblical ,how you decide that a specific prophecy that has a repetitious cycle will eventually culminates in a final fulfillment?

if for example the prophecy in Exodus has a repetitious cycle of fulfillments,then you made it elastic prophecy that will stretch its hand to any future fulfillment,to Jesus,Mohamed and anyone else till day of judgment......

[YusufNoor]

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

Here's assessment of Ishmael's righteousness:

Was Ishmael righteous?

Most of us remember Ishmael in Genesis by the comment, he shall be “a wild-ass of a man” and some consider him to be somehow illegitimate.

Let us clear up these misconceptions. For sources we’ll use The Stone Edition Chumash The Torah, Haftaros and Five Megillos with A Commentary Anthologized From The Rabbinic Writings by Mesorah Publishing as well as the Artscroll Tanach Series Bereishsis/ Genesis A New Translation with a Commentary Anthologized From Talmudic, Midrashic and Rabbinic Sources Translation and commentary by Rabbi Meir Zlotowitz with Overviews by Rabbi Nosson Scherman and a Foreword by HaGoan HaRav Mordechai Gifter, published by Mesorah Publication Ltd, hereafter referred to as the Chumash or Bereishsis/ Genesis respectively.

From the Chumash we read 16:3, So Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her maidservant – after 10 years of Abram’s dwelling in the Land of Canaan – and gave her to Abram her husband, to him as a wife. He consorted with Hagar and she conceived; and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was lowered in her esteem.

16 The Birth of Ishmael. Despite their spiritual riches and Godly assurances, Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.

Hagar was a daughter of Pharaoh. After seeing the miracles that were brought on Sarah’s behalf when she was abducted and taken to his palace, he gave her to Hagar, saying, “Better that she be a servant in their house, than a princess in someone else’s.” So it was that Hagar, an Egyptian princess, became Abraham’s wife and bore him Ishmael.

In the notes to verse 4 – Her mistress was lowered. Hagar brazenly boasted to the ladies, “Since so many years have passed without Sarai having children, she cannot be as righteous as she seems. But I conceived immediately!” (Rashi). Now that Hagar had assured Abraham’s posterity, she no longer felt subservient to Sarah (Radak).

A few notes about Sarah and Hagar from verses 6 – 8:
Verse 6 “your maidservant is in your hand; do to her as you see fit.” To me she is a wife; and I have no right to treat her unkindly. But to you she is a servant; if she mistreats you, do what you feel is right. (Radak; Haamek Davar). Sarah’s intent was not malicious, but to force Hagar to cease from her insulting demeanor. But instead of acknowledging Sarah’s superior position, Hagar fled (Arbarbanel; Sforno).

Rabbi Aryeh Levin noted that it is congruous to believe that a woman as righteous as Sarah would persecute another human being out of personal pique. Rather, Sarah treated Hagar as she always had, but in the light of Hagar’s newly inflated self-image, she took it as persecution.

We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.


Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!


I got lazy and copied this from the Jewish Publication Society, the first half of Genesis chapter 25:

1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.

2 And she bore him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah

3 And Jokshan begot Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.

4 And the sons of Midian: Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, that Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts; and he sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years

8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

9 And Isaac and Ishmael his sons buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

10 the field which Abraham purchased of the children of Heth; there was Abraham buried, and Sarah his wife.

11 And it came to pass after the death of Abraham, that God blessed Isaac his son; and Isaac dwelt by Beer-lahai-roi.

12 Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's handmaid, bore unto Abraham.

13 And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the first-born of Ishmael, Nebaioth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam,

14 and Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa;

15 Hadad, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedem;

16 these are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their villages, and by their encampments; twelve princes according to their nations

17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

18 And they dwelt from Havilah unto Shur that is before Egypt, as thou goest toward Asshur: over against all his brethren he did settle.

Let’s begin with the part dealing with Ishmael first. We see in verse 9 that both Isaac and Ishmael buried their Abraham, what does this tell us? Well, for one, we can confirm that there was NEVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was Abraham’s firstborn, NOR was there EVER a time during Abraham’s life when Isaac was to Abraham “your son, your only son”. Those terms could ONLY be used to describe Ishmael, Abraham’s firstborn son. But we are not here to speculate who changed THAT story!

In Bereishsis/ Genesis, the notes for verse 17. Ishmael’s age is given because it assists in calculations with respect to [dating the various events which occurred during the life of] Jacob (Rashi [Yevamos 64a]) [and this is footnoted, which reads in part: 1 Rashi goes on to explain that we calculate from Ishmael’s age at his death that Jacob attended the Academy of Eber for fourteen years from the time he left his fathers’ house to the time he arrived at Laban’s house (as explained in Megillah 17a); to which we have the sub footnote: [Briefly, according to the data cited in Megillah 17a, when Jacob stood before Pharaoh he should have been 116 years old, yet Jacob himself gave his age as 130(Gen. 47:9). The discrepancy is explained by the fact that he spent fourteen years in the Academy of Eber after leaving his fathers’ house.]
According to Ramban [to this verse but cited in v12] Ishmael’s age is noted here because he repented and the age of the righteous is generally stated. Rashbam holds that it is recorded as a mark of honor for Abraham. Since the torah had mentioned Abraham’s age at Ishmael’s birth, and Ishmael’s age when he underwent circumcision. It now concludes by mentioning his lifespan. Further on we read Rashi comments that…is only mentioned in the case of righteous people [such as Ishmael, since he repented…]…
According to R’ Bachya it [the phrase “and was gathered unto his people”] is based the use in our verse of both expired and died – which refer to the death only of the righteous – and the Sages said that Ishmael repented of his evil ways.

So whatever ill will the Jews may harbor against Ishmael [that they say he had “evil” ways], he is cleared of any error and claimed by JEWISH Sages to be “of the righteous!” note the similarity in regards to Abraham in verse 8 And Abraham expired, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Compared to of Ishmael in verse 17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, a hundred and thirty and seven years; and he expired and died; and was gathered unto his people.

Also, consider that we saw in the notes to Genesis 16 “that Abraham and Sarah were still heartbroken at their barrenness, for without heirs they would not be able to continue the mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind. Recognizing that it was she who was infertile, Sarah suggested that Abraham marry her maidservant Hagar, and, if a son were born, Sarah would raise him, so that he would be considered her adopted child.” This tells us that it was the intent of Abraham and Sarah to raise Ishmael “so that he would be considered her adopted child!” it stands within reason but our case doesn’t rely solely on it, that in their job of “parenting” Ishmael [up until the birth of Isaac] that they would have sent him to the “Academy of Eber in Jerusalem” for proper training in the “mission of Bringing God’s teaching to mankind.” So from Ishmael's beginning and again at the end of his life we can put him in the category of the “sons” of Eber, and thus an Hebrew.


We will take another look at Hagar, just in case any see her as a reason to disqualify Ishmael as one of the “righteous.” Let’s look again at 25:1, And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.
The notes say that there is a Hebrew word in the phrase which means “again” which would literally mean: And Abraham again took a wife, which is interpreted by the Sages to intimate the Abraham remarried to before: Hagar.

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).
In 21:14 Rashi comments that Hagar reverted to the idolatry of her father’s house. How then does he now call her action “beautiful as incense?” – Rather, when she was expelled from Abraham’s household she felt forsaken even by his God and she intended to revert to her idolatrous ways. But when the miracle occurred at the well, she repented (Gur Aryeh).

The Zohar similarly comments that although she had relapsed into her ancestral idolatry, she later repented and changed her name, after which Abraham sent for and married her. From this we see that a change of name males atonement for guilt, for she made this change of name symbolic of her change of behavior.
[Immediately following this there is a note discussing some Hebrew phraseology which…denotes that Keturah was righteous and fit for Abraham.]

Although Hagar/Keturah was a first generation Egyptian and hence forbidden in marriage [see Deut.32: 9], nevertheless, since his first marriage to her was with God’s sanction, she remained permissible to him for remarriage as well. Furthermore, the Midrash [Bereishis Rabbah 60:4] specifically states that Abraham married Keturah/Hagar by Divine Command (Tur).
Targum Yonasan renders the verse: and Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah; she is Hagar who had been bound to him…from the beginning.

So we here additionally that if there were any ill feelings on the part of the Jews for Hagar, regardless of whether or not she is Keturah, the Jewish sources claim that not only was Hagar “permissible” for Abraham, but they actually speak quite highly of her considering the circumstances. Based on that I would reject any effort to disqualify Ishmael as a “son of Eber” based upon anything said about him or his mother, Hagar.

The actual words of Dueteronomy require some "discussion" in order to explain some of the phrases which seem out of place, but that might actually help us with identifying that "prophet." THAT is the next step, Insha' Allah.

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

versus




Not only you contradict yourself,but also
the notion of a "multiple fulfillments " which you crafted is not only unbiblical but absured as well.....
If you could prove it to be Biblical ,how you decide that a specific prophecy that has a repetitious cycle will eventually culminates in a final fulfillment?

if for example the prophecy in Exodus has a repetitious cycle of fulfillments,then you made it elastic prophecy that will stretch its hand to any future fulfillment,to Jesus,Mohamed and anyone else till day of judgment......

Perhaps you have missed what I thought was obvious. I am giving you my reading of the text AND I am giving you the view taken by others. Yes, they are different. But neither of them supports the conclusion you have come to, and I don't find you providing substantiation for your views that allows for the context at all.




Yusuf, I've read your 2 posts, but must be dense as I don't get the connection between showing that Ishamael was indeed a valued son of Abraham and this passage wherein Ishmael and his descendants are not present. I think perhaps you want to make the point that since Moses was leading the Hebrews and not just the Israelites, that there could have been descendants of Ishmael present in the group too. Then as Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, if one uses Moses as a typology in the way that Peter does in Acts, the passage could be applied to Muhammad as easily as Peter applied it to Jesus. Is that what you are trying to say?

[YusufNoor]

Yusuf, I've read your 2 posts, but must be dense as I don't get the connection between showing that Ishamael was indeed a valued son of Abraham and this passage wherein Ishmael and his descendants are not present.

breaking news: who says Ishmael's descendants aren't present???


I think perhaps you want to make the point that since Moses was leading the Hebrews and not just the Israelites, that there could have been descendants of Ishmael present in the group too.

hint: who is Jethro?


Then as Muhammad is a descendant of Ishmael, if one uses Moses as a typology in the way that Peter does in Acts, the passage could be applied to Muhammad as easily as Peter applied it to Jesus. Is that what you are trying to say?

i have no idea what you mean by that!

:sl:

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

Greetings Gene,

i am actually quite surprised by what i've learned regarding this issue. the 1st being the prescence of Ishmaelites at Horeb/Sinai, and the 2nd is the identity of Jethro/Jether and In Sha'a Allah i'll write about these soo!n

keep in mind [in keeping with the similarites between Moses, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam and Mohammad ibn Abdullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam] that Moses, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam was sent to rescue the Israelites in Egypt and the Rasulullah, Salla Allahu Alaihe Wa Salaam went to Yathrib [it's name at the time and another hint] where there were 3 tribes of Jews! along with the Aus and the Khazraj.

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Jethro is of course Moses' father-in-law. But what is the connection to Ishmael. There is a Reuel mentioned in Genesis 36 and 1 Chronicles 1 that is a descendant of Ishmael and Esau (Jacob's brother) and Jethro apparently also went by the name Reuel, but the same name not withstanding, they are not the same person. Also, Jethro/Reuel did not accompany Moses on the Exodus, nor did Moses' own wife and children.

So, why is it that your seem to imply that Ishmael's descendants are present as part of the Exodus? Is it simply your assertion that because the term Hebrew includes more than just Jews that we therefore have Ishmael's descendents in this particular group that Moses is leading?


Moses is not sent to lead all of the Hebrews, but only the Israelites:

God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation. (Exodus 3:15)

The covenant that God made with the people through Moses, he made only with the house of Jacob (Isaac's son):

Then Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain and said, "This is what you are to say to the house of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel..." (Exodus 19:3)

And while there were other semitic peoples besides Israelites that could properly be called Hebrews, the Hebrews that accompanied Moses, that were among the brethern that is being referred to in the desert with Moses, is the nation of Israel, not Israel plus others.

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, 'I will give it to your descendants.' (Exodus 33:1)

I will remember my covenant with Jacob and my covenant with Isaac and my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land. (Leviticus 26:42)

Then Balaam uttered his oracle: "Balak brought me from Aram, the king of Moab from the eastern mountains. 'Come,' he said, 'curse Jacob for me; come, denounce Israel.' (Numbers 23:7)

You are standing here in order to enter into a covenant with the LORD your God, a covenant the LORD is making with you this day and sealing with an oath, to confirm you this day as his people, that he may be your God as he promised you and as he swore to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 29:12-13)

Subsequent to the burial of Abraham, the next mention of Ishmael/Ishmaelites in the Torah is when the Israelites are taking possession of the land of Canaan (not during the Exodus) and then they are apparently among those that are being opposed. If we consider Midianites to be descendants of Ishmael, then one must acknowledged that they were not a part of those journeying with Moses, but among of those who hired Balaam to curse Moses and the people with him (see Numbers 7).

So, unless you have something else, it does not seem that there were any Ishmaelites to be numbered among the brethern accompanying Moses to be referenced in Deuteronomy 18:18.

[YusufNoor]

Jethro is of course Moses' father-in-law. But what is the connection to Ishmael. There is a Reuel mentioned in Genesis 36 and 1 Chronicles 1 that is a descendant of Ishmael and Esau (Jacob's brother) and Jethro apparently also went by the name Reuel, but the same name not withstanding, they are not the same person. Also, Jethro/Reuel did not accompany Moses on the Exodus, nor did Moses' own wife and children.

So, why is it that your seem to imply that Ishmael's descendants are present as part of the Exodus? Is it simply your assertion that because the term Hebrew includes more than just Jews that we therefore have Ishmael's descendents in this particular group that Moses is leading?


Moses is not sent to lead all of the Hebrews, but only the Israelites:

The covenant that God made with the people through Moses, he made only with the house of Jacob (Isaac's son):

And while there were other semitic peoples besides Israelites that could properly be called Hebrews, the Hebrews that accompanied Moses, that were among the brethern that is being referred to in the desert with Moses, is the nation of Israel, not Israel plus others.



Subsequent to the burial of Abraham, the next mention of Ishmael/Ishmaelites in the Torah is when the Israelites are taking possession of the land of Canaan (not during the Exodus) and then they are apparently among those that are being opposed. If we consider Midianites to be descendants of Ishmael, then one must acknowledged that they were not a part of those journeying with Moses, but among of those who hired Balaam to curse Moses and the people with him (see Numbers 7).

So, unless you have something else, it does not seem that there were any Ishmaelites to be numbered among the brethern accompanying Moses to be referenced in Deuteronomy 18:18.

of course i have something else! :giggling:

[YusufNoor]

of course i have something else! :giggling:

and, Alhumdulillah, here it is!

Bismillah ir Rahman ir Raheem,

We begin with Allah’s Blessed name; we praise Him and we glorify Him as He aught to be glorified and we pray for peace and blessings on all His Noble Messengers and in particular the last of them all, the blessed Prophet Muhammad ibn Abdullah.

Just to recap, what we are attempting to show here is “according to the Bible,” were Ishmaelites present at Sinai with Moses [Alaihe Salaam]. To make it easier on me I’ll do this in 2 parts, In Sha’a Allah. In this post we’ll lay the foundation for our conclusions, In Sha’a Allah.

which is meant to answer:

So, unless you have something else, it does not seem that there were any Ishmaelites to be numbered among the brethern accompanying Moses to be referenced in Deuteronomy 18:18.

To begin let’s go to Genesis and see if we discover any clues there.

Genesis 37:
25 As they sat down to eat their meal, they looked up and saw a
caravan of Ishmaelites coming from Gilead. Their camels
were loaded with spices, balm and myrrh, and they were on their
way to take them down to Egypt.
26 Judah said to his brothers, "What will we gain if we kill our
brother and cover up his blood?
27 Come, let's sell him to the Ishmaelites and not lay our
hands on him; after all, he is our brother, our own flesh and
blood." His brothers agreed.
28 So when the Midianite merchants came by, his brothers pulled
Joseph up out of the cistern and sold him for twenty shekels
of silver to the Ishmaelites, who took him to Egypt.
29 When Reuben returned to the cistern and saw that Joseph was
not there, he tore his clothes.
30 He went back to his brothers and said, "The boy isn't there!
Where can I turn now?"
31 Then they got Joseph's robe, slaughtered a goat and dipped
the robe in the blood.
32 They took the ornamented robe back to their father and said,
"We found this. Examine it to see whether it is your son's
robe."
33 He recognized it and said, "It is my son's robe! Some
ferocious animal has devoured him. Joseph has surely been
torn to pieces."
34 Then Jacob tore his clothes, put on sackcloth and mourned for
his son many days.
35 All his sons and daughters came to comfort him, but he
refused to be comforted. "No," he said, "in mourning will I
go down to the grave to my son." So his father wept for
him.
36 Meanwhile, the Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to
Potiphar, one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain of the
guard.

Genesis 39:
1 Now Joseph had been taken down to Egypt. Potiphar, an
Egyptian who was one of Pharaoh's officials, the captain
of the guard, bought him from the Ishmaelites who had
taken him there.

Here we see that Ishmaelite and Midianite were used interchangeably, thus implying that they are one and the same. Is this done anywhere else in the Bible? Let’s take a look at Judges to see if we can find any more clues.

Judges 6:
2 Because the power of Midian was so oppressive, the Israelites
prepared shelters for themselves in mountain clefts, caves
and strongholds.

Judges 7:
8 ... Now the camp of Midian lay below him [Gideon] in the valley.
9 During that night the LORD said to Gideon, "Get up, go down
against the camp, because I am going to give it into your
hands.
10 If you are afraid to attack, go down to the camp with your
servant Purah
11 and listen to what they are saying. Afterward, you will be
encouraged to attack the camp." So he and Purah his servant
went down to the outposts of the camp.
12 The Midianites, the Amalekites and all the other eastern
peoples had settled in the valley, thick as locusts. Their
camels could no more be counted than the sand on the
seashore.

and

Judges 8:
22 The Israelites said to Gideon, "Rule over us--you, your son
and your grandson--because you have saved us out of the hand
of Midian."
23 But Gideon told them, "I will not rule over you, nor will my
son rule over you. The LORD will rule over you."
24 And he said, "I do have one request, that each of you give me
an earring from your share of the plunder." (It was the
custom of the Ishmaelites to wear gold earrings.)
25 They answered, "We'll be glad to give them." So they spread
out a garment, and each man threw a ring from his plunder
onto it.
26 The weight of the gold rings he asked for came to seventeen
hundred shekels, not counting the ornaments, the pendants
and the purple garments worn by the kings of Midian or the
chains that were on their camels' necks.

To make it easy on me, I copies the verses from this website:

http://www.********************/BibleCom/gen37-25.html

which, by the way also includes this:

Let me quote from the footnotes of the NIV Study Bible:
37:25 Ishmaelites. Also called Midianites (v. 28; see Judges 8:22,24,26) and Medanites (see NIV text note on v. 36). These various tribal groups were interrelated, since Midian and Medan, like Ishmael, were also sons of Abraham (25:2).


Here also we see the 2 mentioned in similar context. In fact many commentaries on the bible that claim that: “the term "Ishamelite" was synonymous with the term "Midianites."

http://www.carm.org/bible-difficulti...-or-midianites

Another website says:

Incidentally, the Midianites and the Ishmaelites were related. The Ishmaelites were descendents of Abraham through Hagar. And the Midianites were descendants of Abraham through Keturah.

I have seen commentary from Christian researchers that claim that the terms "Midianites" and "Ishmaelites" were interchangeable. This is partly based on the use of the two tribal names in Judges 8:22 and Judges 8:24, which indicate that the names might have been interchangeable. Perhaps the names were interchangeable because the two tribes were intermixed to the extent that either name would suffice in describing them.

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/q12.htm

When we look back at an earlier post we see that both Ishmael and Midian are offspring of Abraham, Alaihe Salaam and that Hagar, according to Jewish Midrash, is actually Keturah:

Keturah is Hagar, who received this name because her deeds were as beautiful as incense [ketores]; also because she remained chaste…from the time she had separated from Abraham (Midrash; Rashi).

In light of this information, can we place any Ishmaelites at Sinai with Moses, Alaihe Salaam? And if so, can we place them in close proximity to Moses, Alaihe Salaam?

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Dregging up stuff that appears to be a year old. :)

In light of this information, can we place any Ishmaelites at Sinai with Moses, Alaihe Salaam? And if so, can we place them in close proximity to Moses, Alaihe Salaam?

:w:

No, for the same reasons that I cited above. They were not the people that were travelling with Moses. Unless you mean "close proximity" merely in the sense that they might have been observers of Moses and the Israelites passing by, I still don't think so.

[YusufNoor]

Dregging up stuff that appears to be a year old. :)


i'll post at my own pace and discretion, thank you very much! :D


No, for the same reasons that I cited above. They were not the people that were travelling with Moses. Unless you mean "close proximity" merely in the sense that they might have been observers of Moses and the Israelites passing by, I still don't think so.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

well then, you better grab a hold of your socks! ;D

cuz i don't think anyone could have been closer to Moses! :happy:

hint, hint, hint :hiding:

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

Zipporah was a (singular) Midianite, and not (plural) Midianites. (Though according to the custom of the time, I believe that she might no longer have been viewed as a Midianite at all following her marriage to Moses. This is what I suspect, though I am not completely sure.) But if this is your reference, I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants among the Israelites. (I'm still going to call them Israelites. But I suppose I person can be both an Israelite and an Ishmaelite at the same time.)

Good job on your research.

[YusufNoor]

Zipporah was a (singular) Midianite, and not (plural) Midianites.

what, and she and Moses, pbuh, didn't have any children? :rollseyes

(Though according to the custom of the time, I believe that she might no longer have been viewed as a Midianite at all following her marriage to Moses. This is what I suspect, though I am not completely sure.) But if this is your reference, I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants among the Israelites. (I'm still going to call them Israelites. But I suppose I person can be both an Israelite and an Ishmaelite at the same time.)

Good job on your research.

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

and please, refresh my memory, of all of those adults "that were travelling with Moses", exactly how many made it into the promised land? :blind:

and, could you repeat that? :D

:w:

[Grace Seeker]

I didn't say that Zipporah and Moses had no children. They indeed did. But, according to the tribal culture they would have all been classified as Israelites, not Midianites. Yet, I recognized what you were saying when this thread started about descendants of Ishmael. This is why I said:

I do see where you are going in suggesting that Ishamael had descendants [note I made this word plural, not singular] among the Israelites.

I even commended you for doing a "good job in your research". What more do you want? Don't be so contentious as to go looking for disagreement when there is none.

and please, refresh my memory, of all of those adults "that were travelling with Moses", exactly how many made it into the promised land? :blind:

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

[جوري]

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

Haven't seen any holy books or wise words from either Joshua or caleb to withstand the test of time .. they get an honorable mention in wikipedia but not 1.86 billion followers.. :hmm: curious indeed

[AntiKarateKid]

I didn't say that Zipporah and Moses had no children. They indeed did. But, according to the tribal culture they would have all been classified as Israelites, not Midianites. Yet, I recognized what you were saying when this thread started about descendants of Ishmael. This is why I said: I even commended you for doing a "good job in your research". What more do you want? Don't be so contentious as to go looking for disagreement when there is none.

2 -- Joshua and Caleb

Graceseeker, forgive me, but reading your debate against Imam, you didn't answer alot of his points, especially the contradiction in Acts you made.

[Zafran]

Salaam

Good job Yusuf Noor - This has cleared a lot of things up for me and shows that there is a solid bases of Prophet Muhammad pbuh being the prophet of Duetoronmy 18:18.

peace

[Grace Seeker]

Graceseeker, forgive me, but reading your debate against Imam, you didn't answer alot of his points, especially the contradiction in Acts you made.

Do you mean this point that Imam made?

Not only you contradict yourself,but also
the notion of a "multiple fulfillments " which you crafted is not only unbiblical but absured as well.....
If you could prove it to be Biblical ,how you decide that a specific prophecy that has a repetitious cycle will eventually culminates in a final fulfillment?

if for example the prophecy in Exodus has a repetitious cycle of fulfillments,then you made it elastic prophecy that will stretch its hand to any future fulfillment,to Jesus,Mohamed and anyone else till day of judgment......

I didn't make further comment because while I don't feel that I contradicted myself, I accept that it is his view of my posts. After all, since you read above you no doubt noted that I choose to amend one of my earlier posts after reading deeper into to the topic.

Also, I don't see the need to answer each point, especially as I don't disagree with all of them. While I don't think that concept of multiple fulfillments of a prophecy is unBiblical, I agree that it does create a few problems for the interpreter: how does one know that any singular event is the final fulfillment or the problem with a prophecy being interpreted so "elastically" that it might be applied over and over again to first one and then another. I acknowledge that these are difficulties for the interpreter, but that doesn't mean that simply because it is now harder for the interpreter that it untrue. If Imam sees it as absurb, who am I to tell him that he cannot view it that way. He will view it his way, as you will yours and I will mine.

Just because he sees something as absurd doesn't make it untrue and any more than just because I suggest that there are different ways of reading these prophecies makes that interpretation so. I wrote of what I saw happening in that passage, if you and he chose to see things in it differently, then so be it. I remain unconvinced of the arguments that suggest Deuteronomy 18 refers to Muhammed, which I believe remains the main thesis of this thread.

[Grace Seeker]

Haven't seen any holy books or wise words from either Joshua or caleb to withstand the test of time .. they get an honorable mention in wikipedia but not 1.86 billion followers.. :hmm: curious indeed

Oh, I don't know. Maybe you're just not informed about them all. I find these to be pretty wise words, spoken by Joshua, and they have apparently withstood the test of time:

"Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:14-15)

Spoken by Joshua to the assembled tribes of Israel, at Shechem, when Joshua called them to renew their covenant with God.

[جوري]

Oh, I don't know. Maybe you're just not informed about them all. I find these to be pretty wise words, spoken by Joshua, and they have apparently withstood the test of time:

Spoken by Joshua to the assembled tribes of Israel, at Shechem, when Joshua called them to renew their covenant with God.

if powerful and had some sustainability all would be informed of them even random J walkers.. I am not Indian but I know a thing or two about Ghandi.. I am not Mongolian but I know a thing or two about Genghis Khan, I am not Russian, but I know a thing of two about peter the Great I am not chinese but I know a thing or two about Zhu Yuanzhang.. Joshua's assembly of the tribes of Israel hasn't really had much an impact on the world, I am afraid, if he were the intended 'from among their brethern' and his presence backed by support from the almighty himself, then Joshua's powerful words would have had some sustanability and some presence in the 21st century and not just to your person!

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

if powerful and had some sustainability all would be informed of them...

.... Joshua's assembly of the tribes of Israel hasn't really had much an impact on the world, I am afraid, if he were the intended 'from among their brethern' and his presence backed by support from the almighty himself, then Joshua's powerful words would have had some sustanability and some presence in the 21st century and not just to your person!

all the best

You didn't say that you hadn't seen any powerful words from Joshua or Caleb. Nor did you say sustainable. You said

Haven't seen any holy books or wise words from either Joshua or caleb to withstand the test of time .. they get an honorable mention in wikipedia but not 1.86 billion followers.. :hmm: curious indeed

That I was able to find them shows that Joshua's word have indeed withstood the test of time.

However, you are correct that what is wisdom to some is foolishness to others. I still think that it is wise to do as Joshua did and choose to follow the Lord, even if you think otherwise.


Also, even if they were not wise and able to withstand the test of time (which they are and did) that still wouldn't negate the fact they they are the answer to Yusef's question "of all of those adults 'that were travelling with Moses', exactly how many made it into the promised land?" Caleb and Joshua were travelling with Moses. They did make it into the promised land, none of the other adults who were travelling with Moses out of Egypt did. (See Numbers 32:11-12.)

[جوري]

You didn't say that you hadn't seen any powerful words from Joshua or Caleb. Nor did you say sustainable. You said

That I was able to find them shows that Joshua's word have indeed withstood the test of time.

However, you are correct that what is wisdom to some is foolishness to others. I still think that it is wise to do as Joshua did and choose to follow the Lord, even if you think otherwise.


Also, even if they were not wise and able to withstand the test of time (which they are and did) that still wouldn't negate the fact they they are the answer to Yusef's question "of all of those adults 'that were travelling with Moses', exactly how many made it into the promised land?" Caleb and Joshua were travelling with Moses. They did make it into the promised land, none of the other adults who were travelling with Moses out of Egypt did. (See Numbers 32:11-12.)

I see no wisdom at all you are right, I hadn't actually read Br. Yusuf's post and I suspect that he has done a fine job and you've done your best to evade it, I simply went by the title and the message and your statement. A paragraph on caleb or Joshua hardly suffices as the 'messengers' from amongst their 'brethren ' I have seen no message..

all the best

[Grace Seeker]

I see no wisdom at all you are right, I hadn't actually read Br. Yusuf's post and I suspect that he has done a fine job and you've done your best to evade it, I simply went by the title and the message and your statement. A paragraph on caleb or Joshua hardly suffices as the 'messengers' from amongst their 'brethren ' I have seen no message..

all the best

You hadn't actually read what the convesation was about and yet you posted? :-[

Yusuf did indeed do a fine job of writing. I always find them thought provoking, full of relevant information, and sometimes even disquieting in his analysis.

But to answer Yusuf's question, one does not need even a whole paragraph, the single sentence I provided you above:

"Because they have not followed me wholeheartedly, not one of the men twenty years old or more who came up out of Egypt will see the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob- not one except Caleb son of Jephunneh the Kenizzite and Joshua son of Nun, for they followed the LORD wholeheartedly."

provides sufficient information to answer Yusuf's question:

of all of those adults 'that were travelling with Moses', exactly how many made it into the promised land?

2 -- Joshua and Caleb



I'll ask my question about you not seeing the wisdom in choosing to serve the Lord in another thread.

[جوري]

You hadn't actually read what the convesation was about and yet you posted? :-[

Yusuf did indeed do a fine job of writing. I always find them thought provoking, full of relevant information, and sometimes even disquieting in his analysis.

But to answer Yusuf's question, one does not need even a whole paragraph, the single sentence I provided you above: provides sufficient information to answer Yusuf's question:2 -- Joshua and Caleb



I'll ask my question about you not seeing the wisdom in choosing to serve the Lord in another thread.

Indeed.. I didn't and don't want partake in a second party dialogue, I went by thread title and folks that you've alleged are of importance to the subject matter '"From among their brethren..." (A Jewish brethren only?)'
I see no message of sustainability to all of mankind from Caleb or Joshua, as certain I am of lack of significance save for their assigned time period as I am sure these aren't that 'caleb', and 'Joshua' aren't their actual names but some deranged spin!

all the best